Street Challenge Results

[jb@ridetech]

2006 Air Ride Technologies 3rd Annual Street Challenge

4. What was different about the Street Challenge this year?
· direct comparison between stock suspension and air suspension. The previous 2 years we ran an oem suspension car in the morning and coverted it to sir suspension over lunch. This year we actually had 2 stock suspension musclecars, a 67 Chevelle and a 68 Camaro, to directly compare to an air suspension 66 Chevelle and 67 Camaro. The results were nearly unbelievable, as you can see from the timing data.
· More real timing data. This year Nick Lacata and Tim Foss from Primedia recorded lap times on all vehicles in the shorter ½ mile autocross style lap and the slalom event. They also recorded the stock suspension comparison vehicle to their air suspension counterparts on the open track. [actual timing data included below]


Street Challenge drivers quotes

One of the highlights of the Street Challenge event this year was the participation of several professional racecar drivers to give us driving instruction and evaluation of our suspension systems. They had some interesting comments about their experience.

Boris Said is a well known road course driver who is currently co-owner of the # 60 SoBe/No Fear ford in the NASCAR Nextel Cup Series. He also has competed extensively in the Grand American Racing Series GT, NASCAR Craftsman Truck and Busch Series, and Trans AM series. His aggressive driving style will expose the weak link in any car and his candor will leave no doubt about what that link may be!

“ Before I came to the Street Challenge last year I thought that air suspension was what you see when the car bounces up and down. After driving many of the Air Ride Technologies cars, I was shocked! It made an old car drive like a new one…the car was much crisper, much flatter. I liked that fact that I could make changes in the air pressure and directly affect the handling of the car…if it was pushing I would raise the back just a little, if it was loose I would soften the rear.
I am buying a 55 F100 and one of the first things I am doing is putting an air suspension on it. Now that I have seen how nice the ride quality is, and how well they drive, it’s definitely what I want for my everyday driver.”

Scott Pruett is the driver for the Ganassi Racing #01 in the Grand American Rolex sports Car Series. He has also won several SCCA Trans Am, IMSA GTO, and IMSA GT Endurance Championships.

“ Like many people, I thought that air suspension was more of a style or cosmetic thing than a performance item. I had a 50 Buick with a crude airbag system on it but had never taken the time to learn anything about it so the performance of my Buick system was not impressive. After coming to the Street Challenge this year I know there is a whole new level of performance available with an air suspension. These cars rode and drove great! It is truly the best of both worlds. There was no sacrifice of ride quality to get superior performance. When I got out of the red Chevelle with the stock suspension, I was DONE with that car…it was scary. The air suspension Chevelle drove and rode great…AND was 14 seconds a lap faster!”


Mike McGlaughlin is a former NASCAR Busch Series driver and is currently a driving coach for Joe Gibbs Racing in North Carolina.

“ Being very interested in street rods, I had heard of air suspension and figured it was mostly for cosmetic purposes…to get the car low and still be able to drive it. Attending the Street Challenge really expanded my expectations of what a performance suspension can be. When driving the stock suspension vehicles [at the event] it would take a huge amount of steering input [11/2 turns] to get any response. It seemed like /I was chasing it all the time. With the air suspension car a ½ turn of the wheel was all it took to point it where you wanted to go! The cars drove great…they did everything I asked them to do… but I can’t wait to play with more shock and swaybar combinations to wring out even more performance.”

Timothy Peters is the driver for Bobby Hamilton Racing in the Craftsman Truck Series and will drive in the Busch Grand National Series for Richard Childress Racing in 2007.

“I have to admit, I had no experience at all with an air suspension car before the Street Challenge this year, so I had no expectations good, bad, or indifferent. I was impressed. This first thing I noticed was the ride quality. Then we went into the first turn. It was like a race suspension with a comfortable ride! The Camaro with the stock suspension felt like it was going to spit me out at any moment…and finally did. [Tim spun the stock 68 Camaro hard in turn 7] This air suspension stuff just blew me away. The really cool thing was the changes you could make with air pressure and shock valving to change the performance of the car. In a race car you have to stop and make adjustments or even change parts…with this stuff you just push a button!


Street Challenge timing highlights:


· 1.112 G cornering force (recorded on the blue 1966 air suspension Chevelle via RacePak G2X on Sept. 6, 2006 at Putnam Park Road Course on BF Goodrich G-force tires with Boris Said Driving)

· The blue 1966 Chevelle with Air Ride Technologies air suspension components (Front – ShockWaves® with upper and lower StrongArm® control arms, Rear – AirBar® system) turned an open track lap of 1:29.05. The red 1967 Chevelle SS with stock suspension ran a 1:43.27 lap. Scott Pruett ran both runs picking up 14.22 seconds with the air suspension Chevelle. At that pace the stock suspension Chevelle would be lapped by the air suspension Chevelle every 7.3 laps!

· In the Autocross the gold 1968 Camaro with stock suspension ran a 39.79 seconds lap. The red 1967 Camaro with Air Ride Technologies air suspension (Front – ShockWaves® with upper and lower StrongArm® control arms, Rear – AirBar® system) ran a 34.16 seconds lap. Both laps were driven by Mike McLaughlin. The air suspension Camaro picked up just over 5.5 seconds over the stock suspension.

Autocross timing data [by vehicle]
Car # Vehicle Color Owner Best Time Air suspension equipment
1 1969 Mustang Silver Air Ride Technologies 33.64 ShockWaves/AirBar
2 1970 Buick GSX Yellow Air Ride Technologies 33.22 ShockWaves/StrongArms
3 1971 Camaro RS Black Air Ride Technologies 33.26 ShockWaves/AirBar
4 1967 Chevelle SS Red Air Ride Technologies 37.36 Stock coilspring suspension
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Air Ride Technologies 32.23 ShockWaves/StrongArms
6 1968 Bonneville Gold Air Ride Technologies 35.53 Coolride/Coolride
7 2005 Mustang GT White Air Ride Technologies 31.24 AirStruts/ShockWaves
8 1967 Camaro RS Red Air Ride Technologies 34.16 ShockWaves/AirBar
9 1968 Camaro Gold Air Ride Technologies 37.58 Stock coil/leaf suspension
10 1973 Challenger Black Air Ride Technologies 35.68 ShockWaves/Airbar
11 1956 F100 Blue Air Ride Technologies 36.98 Fatman’s MII/Coolride – Parallel 4 link/CoolRide

22 1969 Camaro** Black Year One 34.92 Martz/coilovers/leafspring
23 1969 Roadrunner Red Year One 40.76 ShockWaves/AirBar
24 1969 Camaro White Year One 34.84 Martz/ShockWaves/AirBar
25 1968 Mustang Copper Fatman Fabrication No time AirStruts/WonderBar
26 1966 F100 Green Fatman Fabrication 41.16 Fatman’s MII/ShockWaveParallel 4 link /Coolride
30 1958 Buick Red Josh Mischler 40.16 CoolRide/CoolRide
31 1965 Mustang SN65** Yellow Wayne and Bob Julian 32.21 Complete 2003 Mustang Cobra chassis
32 1994 S10 Red Bob Hilton 44.54 ShockWave/ShockWave
34 2005 Silverado** Black Kurt Urban 38.47 Stock suspension
35 1964 Chevy C10 Red Eddie Rudd 46.70 Coolride/CoolRide
36 1966 Mustang Blue Jim Bielecki No time
37 1970 Chevelle Silver Carroll Kallweit 35.32 ShockWaves/CoolRide
38 1986 Buick GN Grey Poncho Mateo 42.28 ShockWaves/CoolRide
41 1969 Camaro Z28 Blue Elmer Cole 32.78 ShockWaves/AirBar
42 1969 C10 truck Black Chris Smith 40.46 StrongArms/Coolride
43 1995 Trans Am Red Kurt Ukasik 34.18 ShockWaves/Coolride
44 1990 C1500 Grey Pro-rides 35.01 CoolRide/AirBar
45 2005 GM dually Red Pro-rides 35.39 StrongArms/Coolride/AirBar
46 1970 Cuda** Orange Bob Johnson 31.57 Custom coilover chassis
** = non-air suspension







Top ten autocross times
Car# Vehicle Color Owner Time
7 2005 Mustang GT White Air Ride Technologies 31.24
46 1970 Cuda** Orange Bob Johnson 31.57
31 1967 Mustang**SN65 Yellow Wayne and Bob Julian 32.21
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Air Ride Technologies 32.23
41 1969 Camaro Z28 Blue Elmer Cole 32.78
2 1970 Buick GSX Yellow Air Ride Technologies 33.22
3 1971 Camaro RS Black Air Ride Technologies 33.26
1 1969 Mustang Silver Air Ride Technologies 33.64
8 1967 Camaro RS Red Air Ride Technologies 34.16
43 1995 Trans Am Red Kurt Ukasik 34.18




Stock suspension vs. air suspension comparison timing data - Autocross
Car# Vehicle Color Professional driver Autocross time w/ stock suspension Autocross time w/ air suspension Improvement
9 1968 Camaro Gold Timothy Peters 37.58
9 1968 Camaro Gold Mike McGlaughlin 39.79
8 1967 Camaro Red Timothy Peters 35.05 2.53 seconds
8 1967 Camaro Red Mike McGlaughlin 34.16 5.63 seconds
4 1967 Chevelle SS Red Boris Said 37.36
4 1967 Chevelle SS Red Scott Pruett 37.67
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Boris Said 32.23 5.13 seconds
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Scott Pruett 32.50 5.17 seconds


Stock suspension vs. air suspension comparison timing data – Open track
Car# Vehicle Color Professional driver Autocross time w/ stock suspension Autocross time w/ air suspension Improvement
9 1968 Camaro Gold Mike McGlaughlin 1:37.54
8 1967 Camaro Red Timothy Peters 1:34.92 2.62 seconds
4 1967 Chevelle SS Red Boris Said 1:39.00
4 1967 Chevelle SS Red Scott Pruett 1:43.27
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Boris Said 1:26.10 12.90 seconds
5 1966 Chevelle Blue Scott Pruett 1:29.05 14.22 seconds

[camcojb]

Good info, definitely makes me think. I would like to see it compared to a full Hotchkis system car like mine rather than a stock suspension setup. We all know the stock suspension on these muscle cars left a lot to be desired as far as handling on a track so the huge gains make sense.


I wonder what the back to back difference would be on my car. 64 Chevelle built by Mark Stielow with a twin turbo small block. It has the full Hotchkis setup and is much improved over stock. How would your system compare to that as far as track handling and ride?



Jody

[XcYZ]

That's a great question. We need to find. Sounds like it would make for an excellent tech article. :thumbsup:

[darren@ridetech]

That's a good point. Where are you from? We have been hosting Auto Cross's at many of the GoodGuys events around the country. You should bring it to one, they are tons of fun.

[camcojb]

That's a good point. Where are you from? We have been hosting Auto Cross's at many of the GoodGuys events around the country. You should bring it to one, they are tons of fun.

I'm in the Sacramento area, but the car is apart for freshening and a new twin turbo LS2.

Have you ever sold your system to a guy who already had a modded standard suspension and what did they think?

Jody

[Jr]

JB,
Thanks for the information.

I get a kick from reading this stuff

[camcojb]

Well, your silence I guess answers my question. ;) Both JB and Darren have been on the site since the questions were asked but there hasn't been a peep out of either one.

I was considering this for the Malitude, especially since I'm signed up for Power Tour. But I won't blindly buy this setup because your cars beat up some stock suspension cars on a track. Of course they did, they were stock suspension! Yours probably also had different a-arms or mounting locations, 17/18" wheels and tires, etc. which would all dramatically affect the handling also.

My question was (and still is) simple. I already have a well-sorted suspension designed by Mark Stielow that is a great compromise for track and street. I have 17" wheels and tires. What advantage would I have to install your air system to the car? The car sits perfect and has no headers to drag with the twin turbos, so ride height isn't a bonus to me. There are many on this site that already have modded suspensions, and may have the same question.

Thanks for your time.

Jody

[Stuart Adams]

I agree, great question. You must be a Steeler fan!!

[camcojb]

Thanks Stuart! :yes:

If I may suggest something to the guys at Ridetech. Next time you start a post please come back to answer the questions and comments that will show up. :thumbsup:

Jody

[mazspeed]

A few things I have to say here. I'm going to try and not make this a bashing session on air ride. I think what they are doing for what their products are meant for is great. But you cannot take 60's stock suspension muscle cars and compare them to anything that has been done in the last decade. All you have to do is stick different springs and shocks in a stock car and you made a lot of improvements over what came from the factory. You can't take your best stuff and compete against old stuff. What kind of comparison is that? Bob's cuda which was not made for autocross by any means, is not a good comparison. His car was not really built for the autocross, but it does very well (and beat all but one of your autocross setup cars) there but that was not its top primary goal. You cannot set up your best cars for such events and put them against stock cars or cars that were not made for this kid of thing. You want to go against something, go race your autocross cars against a properly set up 510 or rx-3 on a autocross track, or a newer vette on a road race track. Chances are you would get spanked. The suspension while being good for cruising and what not is still not a high performance chassis. The rebound and compression cannot react fast enough for such things. The new cars like the Mercedes air ride is an electronically controlled suspension with springs in the bags. I have seen this argument before. You don't have the speed at what is needed for racing to be competitive. I think what you guys have done is very good, but to make this "as good as anything else" is absurd, especially when you compare against stock cars from the 60's. A shopping cart has a better suspension then the stock chassis Come on now, be fair about this.

[fatlife]

This again??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I pretty much agree with what has been said, however who else is sponsoring and hosting actual track time??? NO ONE is, airride is the only company to step up to the plate. I give them major kudos for that. BUT like everyone has said they are comparing apples to oranges, and there post seemed like one big huge advertisement with more holes than swiss cheese

[Damn True]

Just out of curiosity regarding that 1.112g reading.

Is that a measurement of sustained cornering load, or a transient reading?

[fatlife]

I belive its from a onboard doohickey, probably not the most reliable device?

[Damn True]

I belive its from a onboard doohickey, probably not the most reliable device?


I wouldn't say that. Some of those are very reliable and accurate.

But it would be really easy to look through a data stream and pick out one little transient spike which would be something entirely different a sustained cornering load.

[jb@ridetech]

Sorry guys i wasn't around a computer this weekend, This event wasn't about showing that our suspension is better then another manufacture, its more about showing that air suspension is a performance suspension upgrade. we do go against others at the autocross events some of the times from them are on other post.As for the equipment used for timing ,here is a link http://www.g2xtreme.com/main.htm To answer your question about the reading for the g reading, i dont know yet, but i am looking into it. I will post a answer as soon as i know.

[darren@ridetech]

I'm in the Sacramento area, but the car is apart for freshening and a new twin turbo LS2.

Have you ever sold your system to a guy who already had a modded standard suspension and what did they think?

Jody

Sorry, wasn't ignoring your question, just didn't see it. We did some testing on a 96 Camaro SS at the first Street Challenge 2 years ago. It had all the Hotchkiss sway bars, sub frame connectors, and stut braces along with a set of aftermarkets performance springs. At lunch was swapped out the springs for the front Shockwaves and rear CoolRide. The only timed testing that we did that year was through the slalom, and if I remember correctly it picked up like 3 mph through the cones. I realize that with us doing all the testing there will be people out there doubting the information given. And could sit here and tell you how well it handles and how great it is until my fingers fall off, but most of you are like me, You have to see it to believe it. Which is exactly why we started the Street Challenge and the Auto Cross events. And by the way all the performance data from the Street Challenge was recoreded by one of the guys from Primedia. Check with us early next year to see if we will be holding an Auto Cross at one of the Pleasanton GoodGuys shows.

Here is the top 10 times from the protouring.com/musclerides.com AutoCross down at Pigeon Forge the other weekend.

Here's the top ten fastest runs.
STICKY TIRES:
Z06 Vette: 57.523 (Owner Shawn Willocks - Car#129)
4th Gen Vert: 63.334 (Owner: Chris McHarge (sp?)Car#73)
STREET TIRES:
1) 70 Air Ride GSX: 63.817 (Owner Bret Voelkel - Car#2)
2) 69 DSE Camaro: 64.107 (Owner Kyle & Stacy - Car#8)
3) 71 Air Ride Camaro: 64.186 (Owner Bret Voelkel - Car#52)
4) 67 Air Ride Chevelle: 64.318 (Owner: Bret Voelkel - Car#21)
5) 95 Camaro WS6: 64.920 (Owner: Matt Altamore - Car#16)
6) 89 Mustang: 65.239(Owner Brandon Wiedeman - Car#9)
7) 68 Twist Camaro: 63.947+1 = 65.947 (Owner: Steve Chryssos - Car#72)
8) LS1 RX7: 66.023 (Owner Andrew Borodin - Car#007) 3150lbs w/driver, 375 RWHP
9) 81 MuscleRides Malibu: 66.788 (Owner Bill Howell - Car #19
10) 2001 Z28 Coupe 66.828 (Owner Ryan Jarrard - Car#24)

[J2SpeedandCustom]

I watched the air rides guys at the KC GG's show this year all I can say is that I am very impressed with the performance! If you think about the "perception" of air ride it's for lead sled cruisers. So if you take a performance car and put air ride on it the performance should dimish. Right?

Well let's just say that many cars ran through the autocross and the air ride cars were among the fastest and looked the most effortless. The had a early 50's truck that look like the thing was on rails! :thumbsup:

Darren I'm now a believer, and after talking with you guys we'll be using air ride in our next 2 cars. One of which is a 69 Camaro. I'm looking forward to beating on it next year at the autocross events!

[darren@ridetech]

I'll be looking forward to seeing you there. I wasn't at Nashville but I'm told that we had a really good turnout there. We had a pretty good turnout at KC as well, but I'm suprised that more people don't get out of their lawn chairs and take a trip through the cones. That was my first time on an Auto Cross course and I loved it. I wish I would have had my Chevelle finished. I figured there would be a line a mile long. We need to get more of you performance guys to come by and show them how to have a good time.

Sorry if this sounds like a big "advertisement", but there has always been discussions on the forums about weather air suspensions can handle well or not, so we are just trying to prove it!

[ridetech bret]

Thanks Stuart! :yes:

If I may suggest something to the guys at Ridetech. Next time you start a post please come back to answer the questions and comments that will show up. :thumbsup:

Jody

I agree completely...your questions [and everyones] deserve an answer. Unfortunately the number of hours in all of our days is still limited to 24 and there are parts to build, phones to answer...you get the idea.

The idea here is to offer yet another choice for your suspension selection. You are quite correct...if your car sits at exactly the right ride height, if it rides exactly the way you want it to, if it corners to your satisfaction...we have nothing to offer you.
The rest of us mortals, however, are interested in all the choices that may be available. All I am trying to offer is that an air suspension can be one of those choices.
BTW...I LOVE Steilows Malibu. It takes a serious amount of time and effort to create such a well rounded car. I don't know Mark personally but I would suspect that his knowledge was enhanced by years of ongoing investigation into new ideas and technologies. We are offering data that concerns a relatively new [at least to this market] technology.
As soon as I can find it again, [tomorrow?] I've got some Racepack G2X data that I will post from the 1G Chevelle at Putnam Park. I'l try to find the link to a demo version of their software so everyone can review the data. Hopefully this will be relevant to most of you. If not, just click off.

[mazspeed]

Check with us early next year to see if we will be holding an Auto Cross at one of the Pleasanton GoodGuys shows.


Ill be there. As an ex autocrosser Id like to see this for myself to be a believer in air ride performance. Ill have my car there and would like to pilot one of your cars that is set up to do a comparison of the 2.

[zbugger]

Ill be there. As an ex autocrosser Id like to see this for myself to be a believer in air ride performance. Ill have my car there and would like to pilot one of your cars that is set up to do a comparison of the 2.
Mike, you'll have to wash your hands first.

[camcojb]

BTW...I LOVE Steilows Malibu. It takes a serious amount of time and effort to create such a well rounded car. I don't know Mark personally but I would suspect that his knowledge was enhanced by years of ongoing investigation into new ideas and technologies. We are offering data that concerns a relatively new [at least to this market] technology.


He's a ride and handling engineer for GM, so he gets to design and play with some cool stuff. He also does a lot of track time with his job and his personal cars. He appears to be open to new technology as am I. If I could retain or improve my handling but get a better ride I would be interested. The car is going on Power Tour next year and being that I'm not a young pup anymore I like a nice ride.

One thing I haven't figured out about your systems; does the ride height and stiffness work hand in hand? In other words, if you backed off the pressures for Power Tour will it also lower the car height? I do like the idea of having both, the ability to back the pressures down to make the car ride soft for cruising, and then being able to adjust it back up for track use. Seems like the height moving around would wreak havoc with your alignment settings.

Jody

[mazspeed]

Mike, you'll have to wash your hands first.
That's it, no more ride for you. :rofl:

[zbugger]

That's it, no more ride for you. :rofl:
Aww MAN!!!!!! And I just washed my hands too!!!!! :(

[mazspeed]

Aww MAN!!!!!! And I just washed my hands too!!!!! :(
Take a shower and we will talk. :lol:

[zbugger]

Take a shower and we will talk. :lol:
I prefer the bubble bath..... :thumbsup:

[mazspeed]

I prefer the bubble bath..... :thumbsup:
Figures :fire:

[darren@ridetech]

One thing I haven't figured out about your systems; does the ride height and stiffness work hand in hand? In other words, if you backed off the pressures for Power Tour will it also lower the car height? I do like the idea of having both, the ability to back the pressures down to make the car ride soft for cruising, and then being able to adjust it back up for track use. Seems like the height moving around would wreak havoc with your alignment settings.

Jody

This can be done to a certain extent. Yes, if you lower the air pressure too much your alignment will be off, not to mention the possibility of it bottoming out. But small adjustments in air pressure will not make a significant difference in height, but will effect the ride quality.

[ridetech bret]

He's a ride and handling engineer for GM, so he gets to design and play with some cool stuff. He also does a lot of track time with his job and his personal cars. He appears to be open to new technology as am I. If I could retain or improve my handling but get a better ride I would be interested. The car is going on Power Tour next year and being that I'm not a young pup anymore I like a nice ride.

One thing I haven't figured out about your systems; does the ride height and stiffness work hand in hand? In other words, if you backed off the pressures for Power Tour will it also lower the car height? I do like the idea of having both, the ability to back the pressures down to make the car ride soft for cruising, and then being able to adjust it back up for track use. Seems like the height moving around would wreak havoc with your alignment settings.

Jody

The ride height and stiffness are connected...to a point. If you inflate an airspring to its designed ride height there is a window or "sweet spot" where small changes in air pressure will affect the spring rate much more than the load capacity [ride height]. Different airsprings exhibit this tendency more than others. It is influenced by the style of airspring [convoluted or sleeve], the shape of the airspring lower piston, and even the weave of the reinforcing fabric of the airspring. In english, you can manipulate the spring rate within maybe 1/2" of the design height of the airspring without significantly affecting your ride height. If the real world I set my alignment at the ride height that exhibits the best ride quality. When I intend to hit the highway I bring the car back to that specific ride height so my ride quality and alignment settings return as well. You can easily substitute "track performance" for "ride quality". In most of my cars the best track performance has come by using the highway ride height air pressure [whatever that may be] and cranking up the shock valving by about 4 clicks on the shocks. On a couple of my cars [the 71 Camaro and the 69 Mustang] I lower the rear air pressure a bit to let the rear of the car roll over and bite.
I still find shock valving, tire pressure, and sway bar setting VERY important when looking for track performance. Everyone has their own idea of how to juggle these parameters. Working with the air pressure is yet another tool. As with any tuning you have to be careful not to tune yourself out in left field! [don't ask me how I know that]
One interesting thing I found on my 69 Mustang...the car wanted to push pretty bad at the Kansas autox. I lowered the air pressure in the front to let it roll over and bite. What was actually happening was by lowering the air pressure I was inducing more static negative camber into the frontend which put more tire on the pavement through the corner. The next event I set the air pressure back up where it used to be and set more static negative camber. The car seemed to like that much better. It was 2 different tracks so a direct comparison was not possible but the frontend of the car was not washing out like it did before so I feel progress was made. The point is that the adjustability of the air suspension allowed me to, in effect, try a different alignment setting very quickly. This is just an example of one individual and one car.
I think that is possibly the biggest advantage of an adjustable suspension...the ability to quickly tune a car to current track or road conditions. Theroretically it would be possible to acheive all of this with traditional suspension. The more experience the tuner has the quicker this tuning could happen. But when you need to drive home or go to another track, [or add weight like passengers, fuel, or luggage] the tuning would have to start over.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

One interesting thing I found on my 69 Mustang...the car wanted to push pretty bad at the Kansas autox.

So when you picked the drivers side tire oh about a FOOT off the ground near the end of the KC auto-x, was that before or after the changes??? I have to admit that was pretty cool! :thumbsup:

[ridetech bret]

A few things I have to say here. I'm going to try and not make this a bashing session on air ride. I think what they are doing for what their products are meant for is great. But you cannot take 60's stock suspension muscle cars and compare them to anything that has been done in the last decade. All you have to do is stick different springs and shocks in a stock car and you made a lot of improvements over what came from the factory. You can't take your best stuff and compete against old stuff. What kind of comparison is that? Bob's cuda which was not made for autocross by any means, is not a good comparison. His car was not really built for the autocross, but it does very well (and beat all but one of your autocross setup cars) there but that was not its top primary goal. You cannot set up your best cars for such events and put them against stock cars or cars that were not made for this kid of thing. You want to go against something, go race your autocross cars against a properly set up 510 or rx-3 on a autocross track, or a newer vette on a road race track. Chances are you would get spanked. The suspension while being good for cruising and what not is still not a high performance chassis. The rebound and compression cannot react fast enough for such things. The new cars like the Mercedes air ride is an electronically controlled suspension with springs in the bags. I have seen this argument before. You don't have the speed at what is needed for racing to be competitive. I think what you guys have done is very good, but to make this "as good as anything else" is absurd, especially when you compare against stock cars from the 60's. A shopping cart has a better suspension then the stock chassis Come on now, be fair about this.

I think it is important to note that our air suspension cars did not have any special components, alignment settings, or other tuning specifically for road course or autoX use. These cars were driven to the events and [except for a couple of hurt engines] driven home. Although Putnam Park is only 2 hours from Jasper, Pigeon forge is 7 hours and Kansas City is 10 hours. Any special preparation was to insure reliability...no leaks, tight belts, hoses and bolts, stuff like that.
The cars you mentioned do perform better than most musclecars in large part because they are considerabley lighter. My GSX for example weighs 4150 with driver. A new Subaru WRX weighs, what, 2850? VERY tough to overcome the weight thing no matter what kind of horsepower you have.
IF the objective is to maximize performance regardless of cost or type of car I guess one would have to consider Formula 1 as the pinnacle of success. Everything else from NASCAR to Indycar to Musclecar has to be considered a compromise. Everyone is different, but my main criteria is Musclecar, oem frame, performance, ease of installation, and price...in that order.
As for getting spanked by a newer Corvette...if we're both on street tires, I'm still waiting. [I'm sure after this I won't have to wait long:)]
One thing that has been [so far] un-discussed is the single most important element in going fast...the driver. At Pigeon Forge the local shoe who had serious experience at that track was at least 5 seconds faster in my own car than I was. [he didn't have to stop for directions :)] I think most [sane]people's main criteria when doing an autocross or track day is to NOT hurt the car. Any driver who is not restrained by such common sense will be signigicantly faster than a civilian. And, frankly, some peope are simply better drivers than others. I'll take a good driver in a bad car any day over the reverse.
Johnson's Cuda is just one bad son-of-a-bitch in ANY context. Bob and Alan are both extremely samrt people who have partered with some very knowledgable suspension engineers to create a car that has the potential to do it all. Beyond that, they have stepped up to sucessfully wring out the bugs that are inherent to every car from demo derby to F1. Watching [and listening to]that car go around the track is just awesome. Few people have a larger jockstrap than Bob Johnson.
That said, I still think the majority of the lurkers here are personally interested in oem chassis cars. That is why we did the comparison between the oem suspension and the air suspension. Hopefully at some point we will get the opportunity to do a direct comparison between coilover and ShockWave on a custom or racing chassis. One step at a time.

[ridetech bret]

So when you picked the drivers side tire oh about a FOOT off the ground near the end of the KC auto-x, was that before or after the changes??? I have to admit that was pretty cool! :thumbsup:

Too bad we didn't get any pictures of that. It scared the **** out of my wife!
I think that little manuver was the product of a fresh set of BFG tires, a full tank of gas [130lbs over the rear tires] and the appropriate amount of tweaking :).

[Jr]

Air ride guys,
thanks for the info. Will there be a first gen camaro with the street challenge airride setup at sema? I would like to "kick the tires" while I'm there....

This may be the perfect street/track setup for my 1967 camaro...

Thanks, David

[darren@ridetech]

We have a Red '67 that follows us to a lot of the shows and auto cross' that we used to design and test that kit. However I don't think that it will make it to SEMA this year. I think that we are taking the '56 F100. You might want to get a look at the 56 though, I think it's headed to Barret Jackson after that.

[Jr]

Darren,
Is this the orange and yellow truck? If so, the owner lives in california. He drives that truck to a lot of shows. Very cool truck

What air ride cars will be at the show?

David

[darren@ridetech]

No. That is Craig Chaffers' truck. Here is a pic of our truck. I think this is the only vehicle that we are bringing.

[Jr]

That's a nice 56

[ridetech bret]

Air ride guys,
thanks for the info. Will there be a first gen camaro with the street challenge airride setup at sema? I would like to "kick the tires" while I'm there....

This may be the perfect street/track setup for my 1967 camaro...

Thanks, David

We will have a list of customers with SEMA projects and [hopefully] a location index both at the show and to post to these forums. I'm sure there will be several gen 1 camaros there, just can't remember who off the top of my head.
If I had the $$ I would do some kind of air suspension "ride and drive" or autocross at SEMA. Unfortunately at that venue it would require a 6 figure budget to accomplish and I don't think I could fold that into the price of the product! :)
At any rate...come by the booth at SEMA...there is always time to bull**** about hotrods!

[Jr]

Bret,
I look forward to stopping by the booth. I hope to meet you and darren...Thanks