Lateral-g Project To Olds or not to Olds

[3kidsnotime]

There has been alot of input on engine ideas, In our budget we also need to do an engine build I dont think an LS series fits the bill it will just kill the budget by the time we build one so The idea of a challenge build the olds? The oiling system is very under par for any kind of rpm duty, Will it be able to withstand track day? Or we do we build a small block chevy, parts are cheap and a savings on weight, And we might be able to set it back a couple inches. Last do we build a big block chevy parts are still cheap we can build alot of torque and HP quite easy, but with the added weight on the front will hurt on the track? So vote yes if you want us to keep the Olds Vote No if you dont want The Olds engine.

[Derek69SS]

Tough call, I voted to keep olds power, but if you want fuel injection and O/D, there's no cheaper way to get it than a used LT1/4L60e.

With the olds engine, the best low-cost O/D option would probably be the 2004R, as I believe those are common with the BOP bellhousing (correct me if I'm wrong)

Small-Block chevy engines obviously offer the most for the least, but it may hurt the value of the car if you decide to sell down the road.

[3kidsnotime]

Derek, Thanks for your input this is what makes this project fun, I got a feeling these guys are going to make me build an olds..... It should be a blast that is a real task.

Jeff

[G-Body]

I love the idea of an olds motoro finally in somethng but have to tell you from one that owned one building an olds motor is not a Cheap thing to pull off parts are scarse and if you go through mondello and other specialized builders way expensive But all in all id say GOOOO for it even a stock olds motor makes good power cant wait t see this....

[Hdesign]

I think it's a nice thought to keep it olds. I'm sure the die-hard Olds fans will think it's a sacrilage to transplant a bowtie in there. Though, considering what the ultimate goal of this project is (best real-world bang for the buck under $15K) anyone would be hard pressed to find a better value than an SBC. However, if a comparable Olds engine can be miraculously found and built to match an SBC for price, go with that.

[3kidsnotime]

I think it's a nice thought to keep it olds. I'm sure the die-hard Olds fans will think it's a sacrilage to transplant a bowtie in there. Though, considering what the ultimate goal of this project is (best real-world bang for the buck under $15K) anyone would be hard pressed to find a better value than an SBC. However, if a comparable Olds engine can be miraculously found and built to match an SBC for price, go with that.


Ben, Thanks for a logical point of view, I am going to keep my personal point of view out of this, The performing future of our car is in the hands of our members so lets do a logical vote on this. Remember we are going to take this to the track and beat it, In the end you will find that alot more people are going to be interested in the out come than all might think. All engines will be fun and one will be a challenge. The out come of this vote IS what will be built for the project. Thank You Jeff

[tyoneal]

To All:

FWIW: As I said before a 455 Olds is cheap and make big torque up front with no bells and whistles. Plus thay have been gone long enough that most people can't tell the difference between a 350 and a 455.

It will run like a hot 350.

Yes, it won't be light in the front, but this is a budget build. I keep hearing it won't be good on track day.

What does that mean??

If you have a track that has more straight-a-ways than it does curves, this Cutless will kick some Ass.

Drag Racing, piece of cake.

Please give us some expectations as far as Track Worthyness, that you would like to strive for?

$15,000 only allows for, "X" amount of performance.

Oldsmobiles are cool and classic torque monsters, Why not take full advantage of that??

That would allow for extra buget on the suspension. If weight is the big issue, adjust it with good springs, (Cheap) , Shocks and sway bar.

Even the late 70's Trans Am's used the Oldmobile Engine (403 ci) I had heard they were destroked 455's. If that's the case, a good High Rise Manifold is only a junk yard away.

Those car's also handled well, Despite the weight. (4200 pounds if I remember right)

I am real interested in your thoughts on these issues.

Thanks for reading.

tyoneal

[3kidsnotime]

To All:

FWIW: As I said before a 455 Olds is cheap and make big torque up front with no bells and whistles. Plus thay have been gone long enough that most people can't tell the difference between a 350 and a 455.

It will run like a hot 350.

Yes, it won't be light in the front, but this is a budget build. I keep hearing it won't be good on track day.

What does that mean??

If you have a track that has more straight-a-ways than it does curves, this Cutless will kick some Ass.

Drag Racing, piece of cake.

Please give us some expectations as far as Track Worthyness, that you would like to strive for?

$15,000 only allows for, "X" amount of performance.

Oldsmobiles are cool and classic torque monsters, Why not take full advantage of that??

That would allow for extra buget on the suspension. If weight is the big issue, adjust it with good springs, (Cheap) , Shocks and sway bar.

Even the late 70's Trans Am's used the Oldmobile Engine (403 ci) I had heard they were destroked 455's. If that's the case, a good High Rise Manifold is only a junk yard away.

Those car's also handled well, Despite the weight. (4200 pounds if I remember right)

I am real interested in your thoughts on these issues.

Thanks for reading.

tyoneal


Thank you for your input, This car is going to have a track day, a Road race course, The engine will run at 70% of the time at 100% duty cycle, Not drag racing wich is 100% at 100% but short cycle, suspended heat oil and friction time are at about 20% for drag racing, versus a road race car at 85% some other forms or racing are even much higher, Take in thought when you drive to work tomorrow put your car in second gear hold it wide open as you drive dont ever let off how long will it last that way. A car on a track in one race day will run 100 1/4 mile drag races in one day. Just a fast engine is only a part it has to take a load and what we are doing to it is going to be a tough one.

[T Bell]

I'd go the Olds route. Like tyoneal said you could get a used 455 easily and not do much to it to make power. The prices for parts are outrageous but you may be able to find deals. Nothing like the deals on the SBC, though. Dick Miller is a racer and has a wealth of knowledge on the sites. www.dickmillerracing.com
And around these parts a 200r4 is a mere pullapart and $50 away. That's right, $50.

[ProTouring442]

A 350 Olds should be capable of winding out pretty well, it only has a 3.39" stroke. It's top end breathing that hurts an Olds motor, but Edelbrock has that covered now with their aluminum heads. As for oiling problems, never heard that. It'll only have 2 bolt mains, but a nice set of studs should fix that. What the hey, go with the Olds. This does come from a guy with a big block Chevy in his 442 though! :lol:

Oh, the 403 wasn't a destroked 455.

455: 4.13 X 4.25
403: 4.35 X 3.39

On paper it should be one hell of a high winding, big inch engine. Unfortunately, all 403s has large chunks of their main webbing missing to make them light weight. Now, I have never heard of a 403 loosing it's guts because of this, but I haven't seen too many used in real anger either!

The best 350 blocks are from the diesel. Strong as hell, but it takes a bit of work to convert them to gas. They really weren't that bad as diesels either, once they put the roller cams in them, they just needed VERY frequent oil changes. Too bad GM screwed Olds on this one, it could have been a good motor.

We might want to get in touch with Dave Smith, Dave Smith Engineering. He's a real Olds guru. Maybe a little sponsor money (read cheaper parts) might be in order?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

[T Bell]

As for oiling problems, never heard that. It'll only have 2 bolt mains, but a nice set of studs should fix that.

Olds motors are notorious for poor oiling at high rpms.
And the 2 bolt main blocks are alot stronger than the SBC because of the high nickel content. I vaguely recall that they are good up to about 400-450 hp. If this is the goal for the motor, you should need any studs or girdle.

[Hdesign]

Why not try a 500 Caddy motor? I'm putting one in my Nova for this very reason, greatest bang for the buck.

A couple facts that sold me on the idea:
1. 500 frikkin cubic inches!
2. Weigh closer to a SBC than a BBC
3. Need very little to wake them up (500 hp, 600lb-ft is easy to get), aluminum intake, valve work, cam and tuned Q-jet
4. High nickle content
5. Bolt to a BOP trans..TH400 recommended
6. Likes mild gears...better highway cruising
7. Consider who bought these cars and their driving habits (seniors)....High probability they were well maintained
8. Definitely unique

Jeff Schwartz used it in his Coupe Deville...did you see the numbers that thing did? Nuf said right there.

[nitrorocket]

An LS1 is the untimate plateform for a road race motor and is 100% reliable. An ls1 can be had for about $2000 turn key. Headers are $500, Motor mounts are $100, and an electric fuel pump is needed for $150 bucks. The stock fuel system can be retained if the rails from a 97 vette are used, they allow for a returnless fuel system.
A sbc build will be that much and would never be as good of a platform. Agree or disagree, that is my $.02!

[3kidsnotime]

An LS1 is the untimate plateform for a road race motor and is 100% reliable. An ls1 can be had for about $2000 turn key. Headers are $500, Motor mounts are $100, and an electric fuel pump is needed for $150 bucks. The stock fuel system can be retained if the rails from a 97 vette are used, they allow for a returnless fuel system.
A sbc build will be that much and would never be as good of a platform. Agree or disagree, that is my $.02!

Then vote no, and we will go from there, I did go to a friends shop today and he has a slew of ls engines and some new t56 set ups we talked a bit but it is not worth while till the voting is done, At this point it is looking like its going olds, But im still going to try to swing a t56 if the budget allows I can adapt that easy to a olds if thats what is voted.

[nitrorocket]

Personally, I would do a 4 speed untill the car gets its feet wet. It can always be sold later for a t56 with no money lost. $15k will go fast, but at least get the good motor as that is the foundation for the car. What will it take for the 1 ton Olds motor to be adequate cost wise? Do you know what that motor weighs?? It 's not light! :(

[3kidsnotime]

I understand your point of view, The engine is not up to me. But the majority of the vote is what is going to be put in the car, That is the wole idea of this, If olds looses to chevy power ill throw your ls idea in there.

[tyoneal]

Thank you for your input, This car is going to have a track day, a Road race course, The engine will run at 70% of the time at 100% duty cycle, Not drag racing wich is 100% at 100% but short cycle, suspended heat oil and friction time are at about 20% for drag racing, versus a road race car at 85% some other forms or racing are even much higher, Take in thought when you drive to work tomorrow put your car in second gear hold it wide open as you drive dont ever let off how long will it last that way. A car on a track in one race day will run 100 1/4 mile drag races in one day. Just a fast engine is only a part it has to take a load and what we are doing to it is going to be a tough one.

Thanks for the clarity of your performance expectations. The only thing I can think of to meet these goals, would be to get a platform that would create exceptional torque and run a taller gear to keep the rev's reasonable.

I'm always learning a lot from the people on this page. If an engine can be built inexpensively, that I could hold WOT in second gear all the way to work, I'm in for a great learning experiance.

I look forward to my learning curve moving upward again.

Thanks again for your clarity.

Best Regards,

tyoneal

[T Bell]

If olds looses to chevy power ill throw your ls idea in there.
because he sure is pushing for this LS engine. :_paranoid But everybody is putting the LS engines in everything. Yeah, they are GREAT enignes but not for every build.

[nitrorocket]

The only reason I am being the LS1 chearleader, is not jsut because I love chearleaders, it is the best motor for the job hands down. I am a little with you, the LS1 swapping has been beaten to death. They are in everything! I went with one because even a $20,000 dollar race motor can barely compete with a mildly built LSX motor for power and reliability. They are affordable, can hold 6000 rpm all day long, are aluminum, and dirt cheap. Whatever motor is chosen I am sure it will be great! :thumbsup:

[3kidsnotime]

What ever we do it will be fun The olds is not the best bang for buck, But it might be interesting to see what we can get out of one as well, There will need to be some oiling modifications to it that is for sure, Not costly but a must if we want it to last more than one lap, and the Miller guys im sure dont want an olds oiled track.........., Keep voting for those who have not Olds or no Olds. We will give it the end of the week and move to the next, so we can get building.

[3kidsnotime]

Keep voting people only 3 days left on this then its what we are bulding looking olds now.

[3kidsnotime]

Ok im going to end on this now we will build a olds, I will submit big block or small block in a couple days, I have a 1971 455 core here cost was 175.00 so if the 455 is voted on we will have to take that factor in if it is small block we will use the engine in the car as the core. :thumbsup:

Jeff