78 TA with LS3/Holley TBI - Shaker scoop mounting [Archive]

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Gscherer78ta

06-27-2019, 06:28 AM

I have the above combination which seems pretty rare. I'm trying to see if anyone has been through this functional shaker scoop mounting before and I don't have to invent something.

The issues are:

1) The LS/Victor intake don't match the line of the hood front to back. At the front the hood is ~1" from the factory air cleaner assy. And the back of the air cleaner assy is ~2".

2) The Air cleaner assy is also about 1" over to the pass side. So the stud that comes out of the TB is ~1" towards the passenger side from the line in the hood.

Thanks in advance!

Greg

Panteracer

06-27-2019, 08:19 AM

Greg,
I love my shaker but bought a few kits
for the Pontiac engine and still had to modify things
Now with my Mr-1 block and manifold it is all custom
and still not the best

I thought there were a few on here with Ls engines
that have it figured out

Love your TA

Hope it works out

Bob ... Panteracer but also Dreamin Ta's

carbuff

06-27-2019, 08:25 PM

Greg,

As I think you know, I have a very similar situation. I didn't realize that your setup moved the engine towards the passenger side though. My SpeedTech Extreme subframe did that, but only about 1/2' or so.

I have Googled and Googled and Googled some more, read every post I can find on the topic, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to make something custom. I don't remember if I've sent you this picture before, but below is my current 'prototype' that I have been working on. Prototype is even a stretch, I'm using this to create a template of what I will need to do.

https://i.imgur.com/4UxinUXb.jpg

I drew those up based on measurements and had a local shop waterjet those for me. You can tell how far off the engine is in terms of angle based on the larger bottom plate relative to the smaller upper plate. I don't remember the exact numbers right now, but your 1" difference front to back is similar.

My plan at the moment is to obtain a 2" spun aluminum drop base from someone, and then cut it to the required angle. I will then have a large disc made with a hole in the middle based off of my prototype of the large disc in the picture. I will deal with the F/R and L/R offsets by cutting the hole correctly, then with angle by cutting the drop base. I'll get it welded together and go from there.

Then there is the air cleaner to deal with. The best plan I have at the moment is to either buy or make something like the following:

http://www.blockersperformance.com/images/products/newkit.jpg

My concern is that my throttle body will cause the drop base to be so far up into the shaker that space will be limited. I need to build my base and put it together and find out. I've been dragging my heels honestly because it's a pain and I don't have the ability to do it all myself at home.

If I don't have enough height to do it, my next course of action is going to be consider one of the new Pro-Touring F-Body tall shakers. He calls them the Dude Scoop.

https://scontent.faus1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51705760_650931035358790_6275078611095519232_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQnsjW4NRf427DFeXH2N4lVHFrW66a4U9vWwTN0tk1n FfFlav1KBUaR1RWI4SxmD33U&_nc_ht=scontent.faus1-1.fna&oh=851091c3c6048a88e3c2ba2ae61d261b&oe=5DB70927

Hmm, not sure if that link worked. Trying again:

https://i.imgur.com/19ALdoD.jpg

That should get me enough height to deal with a filter, but them means finish work and paint, etc. It may be my only option though....

Enough rambling. Not sure if any of this helps.

Gscherer78ta

06-28-2019, 06:32 AM

I know there are a lot of LS swapped Trans Am's on here and Pro-Touring and TA country. Seems most of the typical plastic intake and MFI.

Thanks Bob, appreciate the comments.

Bryan- I was looking at that blockers kit as well. I'm sure you have also heard of WFO sold by Butler.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453649-butler-performance-drop-base-shaker-hood-assembly-for-use-with-edelbrock-rpmperformerintake-for-77-to-79-400-trans-am-wfo-1.html?ref=search:https%3A%2F%2Fbutlerperformance. com%2Fsearch.html%3Fq%3Dwfo

Or WFO has a blocker style system as well.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453650-butler-performance-drop-base-shaker-hood-assembly-for-use-with-edelbrock-rpm-intake-for-73-to-76-trans-am-wfo-2.html?ref=search:https%3A%2F%2Fbutlerperformance. com%2Fsearch.html%3Fq%3Dwfo

Panteracer

06-28-2019, 08:12 AM

Greg,
I bought the original Blockers popsicle stye and it was junk
It did not even fit right under the shaker.. looks like what
you are looking at is a lot better

I ended up doing something like Byan cutting a bottom plate
to fit where the whole wants to be.. my car has a dominator
based carb with 4150 bowls for 1050 or 1150 cfm on the
CV1 manifold so it is really big and set far forward

I then grafted the shaker over the top by gluing oak pieces
up in it and then put threaded rods thru my home made
assembly (see attached pic of air filter)... air filter is a 3"
round that I made into an oval.. hard to describe but it works

I recently changed the Trans in my car and also the trans
mount so the motor is at 2.9 degrees down vs almost 5 before
and the front slightly hits my hood.. need to trim it a little

I can pull things apart to show you if you want more info
but looks like the Butler thing may work for you

Bob

WSSix

06-29-2019, 05:05 AM

Going to be watching this as, one day, I may switch my intake out so I can do this as well. Good luck, Greg.

Gscherer78ta

07-01-2019, 06:11 AM

Greg,

I ended up doing something like Byan cutting a bottom plate
to fit where the whole wants to be.. my car has a dominator
based carb with 4150 bowls for 1050 or 1150 cfm on the
CV1 manifold so it is really big and set far forward

I then grafted the shaker over the top by gluing oak pieces
up in it and then put threaded rods thru my home made
assembly (see attached pic of air filter)... air filter is a 3"
round that I made into an oval.. hard to describe but it works

I can pull things apart to show you if you want more info
but looks like the Butler thing may work for you

Bob

Thanks Bob! If you have time and inclination to take more detailed pictures, I would love to see them! I know we are all busy too, so it's not a big deal.

What diameter is your round filter - I'm guessing that you don't feel like the filter area is choking your flow?

I'm leaning on fabbing my own plate - blockers/WFO style such that my shaker can fit onto it with the stainless ring and then use a rectangular KN filter fitted into the shaker itself. When I make the plate I can adjust for tilt and off center. I'm concerned that with the Victor Jr. style intake I have that I'll run out of height- so the rectangular filter appeals to me.

carbuff

07-01-2019, 06:19 AM

What diameter is your round filter - I'm guessing that you don't feel like the filter area is choking your flow?

Greg, interesting data point here. When I dynoed a couple of weeks ago, we did so both with and without my current round filter installed. We removed it after a few pulls since we noticed vacuum in the manifold and wanted to see if it was the filter. It made very little difference. So we did the tuning without it installed and then reinstalled for one last pull. We lost 6HP when reinstalled, but it was also heat soaked, so to me it was little to no loss.

The filter I'm using is a 9 3/4" round 3" tall K&N at the moment just to give you an idea...

I'm leaning on fabbing my own plate - blockers/WFO style such that my shaker can fit onto it with the stainless ring and then use a rectangular KN filter fitted into the shaker itself. When I make the plate I can adjust for tilt and off center. I'm concerned that with the Victor Jr. style intake I have that I'll run out of height- so the rectangular filter appeals to me.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Keep us posted. I'll get back on my own setup here soon...

Panteracer

07-01-2019, 08:42 AM

Greg
I also have a 3"x10" filter
I did cut the lower edging all the way around as my
CV-1 manifold is really tall. Not the best but better than
running a filter exposed thru the hole. I did that for a while

Bob

Panteracer

07-01-2019, 08:44 AM

Side view

Bob

carbuff

07-01-2019, 08:48 AM

Greg,

You also have the advantage of a bigger shaker than Bob and I do. The later 2nd gen shakers have a steeper front edge which may help you out also...

In addition to the Dude Scoop that PTFB makes/sells, he also has a conical filter that may possibly work for you (I'm considering it also). He seems to have a shorter and a taller version of it. If you can get a drop base that it will sit in and clear, and your shaker will sit down over it, then I think that's a good option. With the bigger shaker scoop you have, it might work for you.

The one concern would be the shift to the side. Hard to tell how close the conical filter would be to the hood / shaker if your engine is offset that much.

Just one more think I'm also considering. :)

Gscherer78ta

07-01-2019, 01:16 PM

Greg, interesting data point here. When I dynoed a couple of weeks ago, we did so both with and without my current round filter installed. We removed it after a few pulls since we noticed vacuum in the manifold and wanted to see if it was the filter. It made very little difference. So we did the tuning without it installed and then reinstalled for one last pull. We lost 6HP when reinstalled, but it was also heat soaked, so to me it was little to no loss.

The filter I'm using is a 9 3/4" round 3" tall K&N at the moment just to give you an idea...

I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Keep us posted. I'll get back on my own setup here soon...

What explains the vacuum in the manifold if the restriction isn't the filter. I have been also wondering about the opening size of the shaker scoops. In Bob's case I don't think that's an issue because it's open all the way around. If the only air is coming through that opening, does that choke the flow?

SSLance

07-01-2019, 01:44 PM

So one of the things I had to deal with on my EFI swap was the air cleaner tilt angle also. The Dual plane intake was tilted so the carb sat level and the single plane intake was not.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-7g5DH83/0/a1bd5edc/XL/20190511_104528-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-t7jWjT7/0/fa3487e9/XL/20190511_110752-XL.jpg

I already had a custom spacer to raise my cowl induction air cleaner up to seal against my hood but had to take about 0.600" off of the front of it and 0.200" off of the rear of it to set my air cleaner back against the hood.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-f3nmXgk/0/04869383/XL/56844-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-MSZPZFC/0/1707b8bc/XL/56843-XL.jpg

I also had to bend about a 3 degree angle into the air cleaner stud so it lined up with the hole in top once again.

That doesn't fix the off to the one side issue but for front to back it worked like a champ.

https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Monte-Carlo-Barney/i-Z295XZs/0/700f8a3a/XL/20190626_143213-XL.jpg

carbuff

07-01-2019, 01:49 PM

Lance,

Did you use a mill to cut that angle? I've contemplated doing something similar, but as you said, it doesn't solve all of my problem...

carbuff

07-01-2019, 01:55 PM

What explains the vacuum in the manifold if the restriction isn't the filter. I have been also wondering about the opening size of the shaker scoops. In Bob's case I don't think that's an issue because it's open all the way around. If the only air is coming through that opening, does that choke the flow?

Greg,

I believe I simply don't have a big enough plenum and throttle body to supply the air flow requirement of the engine. I have the highest-flowing 4150-style throttle body that I could find when I put it all together, but the engine is pulling a lot of air.

When we ran the engine on the engine dyno, we switched from the original intake I was planning to use (a ported Super Victor for the LS7) which also used the 4150 throttle body to a Mast 4500 single plane intake. No other changes. Peak HP increased by about 15HP, but the curve held on amazingly well with the Mast where the 4150 Super Victor started to roll off. The 4500-Mast could flow a lot more air into the engine. The problem is all of the 4500 throttle bodies which I have found are significantly taller than my 4150, which further complicates the problem we are already fighting...

I have to choke my engine to an extent with an even more odd-ball setup of intake to get things to fit. I'm using the LS3 version of the Victor Jr with adapters to mate to my heads. That dropped things down about an inch to get me where I am currently at. It was a painful thing to do, but I haven't found another good option yet.

One last thing... With the previous engine in the car and my previous shaker setup, removing the shaker (but leaving the air filter in place) didn't change the HP at all. I was using a 2.5" tall 14" round K&N with the K&N Extreme top in that case. So the shaker was flowing enough air to keep that fed which surprised me.

SSLance

07-01-2019, 03:32 PM

Lance,

Did you use a mill to cut that angle? I've contemplated doing something similar, but as you said, it doesn't solve all of my problem...

Yes, a friend chucked it up on a mill he has access too and shaved it down. Its funky looking for sure but solved the issue perfectly.

Gscherer78ta

07-02-2019, 06:03 AM

Greg,

I believe I simply don't have a big enough plenum and throttle body to supply the air flow requirement of the engine. I have the highest-flowing 4150-style throttle body that I could find when I put it all together, but the engine is pulling a lot of air.

When we ran the engine on the engine dyno, we switched from the original intake I was planning to use (a ported Super Victor for the LS7) which also used the 4150 throttle body to a Mast 4500 single plane intake. No other changes. Peak HP increased by about 15HP, but the curve held on amazingly well with the Mast where the 4150 Super Victor started to roll off. The 4500-Mast could flow a lot more air into the engine. The problem is all of the 4500 throttle bodies which I have found are significantly taller than my 4150, which further complicates the problem we are already fighting...

I have to choke my engine to an extent with an even more odd-ball setup of intake to get things to fit. I'm using the LS3 version of the Victor Jr with adapters to mate to my heads. That dropped things down about an inch to get me where I am currently at. It was a painful thing to do, but I haven't found another good option yet.

One last thing... With the previous engine in the car and my previous shaker setup, removing the shaker (but leaving the air filter in place) didn't change the HP at all. I was using a 2.5" tall 14" round K&N with the K&N Extreme top in that case. So the shaker was flowing enough air to keep that fed which surprised me.

Great stuff there Bryan! I too have the LS3 version of the victor Jr intake. I haven't run it yet with the shaker scoop on it yet and, It's not learned enough for that to even matter yet.

Gscherer78ta

07-02-2019, 06:04 AM

Lance - I will have tilt to deal with as well.

Josh@Ridetech

07-03-2019, 06:30 AM

Definitely some good ideas here. I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to do mine with my LS3 intake.

Panteracer

07-18-2019, 09:00 PM

Greg
A couple of shots of my setup

Bob

Panteracer

07-18-2019, 09:02 PM

Greg
Second picture

Bob

Gscherer78ta

10-02-2019, 01:29 PM

I bought the kit from Blockers and then I had to remove the metal plate from the fiberglass of my shaker, and I drilled out the spot welds connecting the ring to the shaker. From there I measured the amount of angle I needed, the distance I needed in addition to what the ring provided and I made an adapter to weld between the factory ring and the metal plate. Because the LS motor is about 1" off the seem of the hood, to the passenger side I will glue the metal plate slightly off center so the seem in the shaker matches the seem in the hood.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007023364607/media/124783196011/medium/1570024021/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007023364607/media/124783195802/medium/1570024007/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007023364607/media/124783195989/medium/1570024020/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007023364607/media/124783196076/medium/1570024025/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007023364607/media/124783196132/medium/1570024029/enhance

carbuff

10-03-2019, 04:39 PM

SSLance

10-04-2019, 06:21 AM

Gscherer78ta

10-04-2019, 07:15 AM

Are you going to install the Blockers plate and filter while you have the metal plate off? Seems like that would make it easier, but I cannot recall if the metal plate is needed to align the Blockers plate?

Did you make Seth pull out his trig books to determine how to cut that adapter at the right angle? ;)

I actually made a thin wall cylinder in Solidworks and then made a cut thru the cylinder at the angle, then unwrapped that- that gave me the pattern to cut in the flat.

Gscherer78ta

10-04-2019, 07:18 AM

Love this project, way to make the new better stuff appear just like the old stuff.

Also recognize the logo on the boat cover that you are using as a bench. Had a 2001 LSV for about 8 years or so, still my one sellers regret moment when I let it go.

Thanks for the kind words Lance. The shaker scoop is a one off Dusold edition shaker, which drove a lot of the engine selection .

WSSix

10-05-2019, 07:36 PM

Looks good. I like what you have planned for the shaker. I think it'll work well for you.

Gscherer78ta

10-07-2019, 09:39 AM

Sorry Lance, I think i provided a bit of a cryptic response. I wanted to utilize the shaker as the CAI and that's what led me to where I am now.
I wont get back to the finish the shaker for some time now as I just had a knee replacement surgery and it's very difficult to get around.

It's a Malibu Response LXi under that boat cover. It's been a great boat!

SSLance

10-07-2019, 10:40 AM