Anybody slowing down from 150+ mph very quickly??

[nitrorocket]

Curious of any brake issues anyone has hauling there heavy cars down from 100-150 mph time and time again on the road course. Any recomendations on rotors, pads, or calipers? What is the largest conventional rotor from?? I suppose the new ZO6?? What size are those?

[fatlife]

thats a loaded question, I think you should narrow down what you are wanting to know more specifically, and if you are going to be trying to slow down from 150mph over and over, you are going to want some really good race pads, not street stuff

[Damn True]

thats a loaded question, I think you should narrow down what you are wanting to know more specifically, and if you are going to be trying to slow down from 150mph over and over, you are going to want some really good race pads, not street stuff


.....and said pads won't be worth a damn under street driving conditions.

"Race" pads generally don't work well until they have built up a substantial amount of heat. More heat than you will generate on the street.

You'll want a set of pads for the track and a different set for street driving.

[nitrorocket]

I have 4 wheel disc now. I run the 12" rear z28 brakes and factory front disc. I run Race pads at all 4 corners. The car stops great and will lock them up at will. Porblem I have is if I do a couple of real fast 100-150 mph stops, the brakes in the front start smoking and start to fade after more then a couple HARD stops from these speeds. I am going to upgrade the fronts and am real curious on if people have had issues with any particular setups with this kind of driving?

[HAULNSS]

Have you added an adjustable proportion valve? Sounds like the fronts may be doing a lot of the work.

A good 'race' pad is worthless on the street and vice versa. Like stated earlier, a race pad needs some heat to start really working.

Brakes basically transfer energy via heat. Get the best (and usually biggest)components you can afford or fit in your application.

Good 'real' race pads.
Good, large rotors.
Good brake bias.
Good, fresh high temp fluid.
Cooling ducts and wheels that allow air flow help, also.

Good luck.
Randy

[fatlife]

Curious of any brake issues anyone has hauling there heavy cars down from 100-150 mph time and time again on the road course. A

What does this question have to do with street driving?

[fatlife]

What does your budget look like, the stock front discs aren't all that great, especially at 150mph, You could do C5 with some good pads and fluid and maybe be okay.

Another thing I notice that you keep mentioning is doing 150mph at a road course, I think you should go to one first, before you start telling yourself your going to be doing 150mph repeadetly, the only part you would do that is on the front straight, and I think you would be pooping your pants when you see that first turn comiing at 150mph. I was told the Mule with Mark Steilow behind the wheel did 135 down the front straight(t-hill) which is pretty fast. It would be hard to see that 4000ilb chevelle with nearly stock suspensison and a new driver doing 150. However your question is still just as legit.

I'm still confused with your question, you ask about the largest rotor. Are you talking about stock GM stuff or aftermarket. You really need to find out what will fit in your wheel. Probably 13" would be max if I had to guess looking at your wheels, not sure of the size etc. Do you want to spend $600 or $2000? Obviously the more you spend the better you get, but I think that if you really do some track time, your thought of what it is about and these speeds you dream about will change. Yes you will need good pads to stop after doing 100mph+ for the first turn, but that isn't the only place you are heating them up. And most of the other turns aren't 100mph turns. I would say a good inexpensive C5 setup would be fine for your first few times at the track. When you start learning whatever track it is your going to, and start getting your line down and remembering what turns come next, and start picking up speed and need better brakes then you might upgrade even more. The good thing about good brakes at the track, is that you can brake deeper into turns. The deeper you go into the turn the later you can turn in, which helps you pass people, go faster, and apex later which all helps your lap times. Potterfield makes good race pads and so does Hawk and carbotech

[nitrorocket]

I mentioned 150 mph, because it IS a realistic speed I will reach at the track, last thing I need is to have fade in the next turn. I won't start road racing untill next spring, but I am trying to get options and pro and cons from other that have been where I am going.

Last time to the track(quarter) with my old N/A small block, I made 5 passes in only 10 minutes and I thought my car was on fire! Then I noticed the front brakes smoking severely. The car kept getting faster, but the car was stopping slower, and that was only at 125 mph.

I have a adjustable proportioning valve, but the fronts are just to small. I also run synthetic fluid. The faster the car gets the smaller my front brakes are! :rolleyes:

The new zo6 brakes look nice, but I wonder how much just a c5 upgrade would help? Maybe Wilwood or brembo? I have also thought about some used Nascar style calipers, are those any good? I don't know, I have never tried those brakes! I run 17x8's in the front. I would like to put it together in bits and pieces from scratch, I am wierd that way.:(

[fatlife]

I mentioned 150 mph, because it IS a realistic speed I will reach at the track
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/5517/2673548axfre1ha3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


:rolleyes: you'll learn eventually, thinking/talking about=lot differnet than doing/experiencing. Your only goal at your first trackday is to LEARN, not go fast, its not like drag racing.

I also run synthetic fluid.
WHat kind? if you are running Dot5 that could be a problem, if you are using Dot5.2 than its all good

The new zo6 brakes look nice, but I wonder how much just a c5 upgrade would help? Maybe Wilwood or brembo? I have also thought about some used Nascar style calipers, are those any good? I don't know, I have never tried those brakes! I run 17x8's in the front. I would like to put it together in bits and pieces from scratch, I am wierd that way.:(
See the other post
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=5750
I think a C5 setup would be perfect, just don't skimp on the pads.

[Blown353]

Good info here.

Some experience on my part... C4 PBR's all the way around with 13" rotors up front, 12" rear, on a 3250lb (no driver) '68 Mustang, ~625hp, on Hoosier slicks with brake ducts in front and running The Brake Man #4 pads works very, very well for 20 minute HARD track sessions with a very aggressive driver. One thing you need to remember is take a cool down lap so ambient heat doesn't bake the rubber dust seals on the calipers when you park it in the pits.

C4/C5 brakes for "casual" track days work very well when paired with good pads especially when cooling ducts and hi temp fluid is in place.

I think a C5 setup with good pads (maybe consider a set of track wheels-- certain race pads and their dust can be quite corrosive to wheels especially if the dust gets wet) and cooling ducts will do the job for you. Run good hi-temp fluid like Motul or Wilwood (fresh just before the track day.) If you mix and match pad brands (such as having a street pad you run and then some race pads) you may also want another set of rotors that stay bedded to those particular pads. However, I do know that Carbotech advises you are OK to switch pad compounds as long as you stick with their stuff without having to re-bed-- that's nice! Running race pads on the street has drawbacks too, not getting them hot enough can often lead to amazingly fast rotor wear.

Be warned of the other probable heat management issues I bet you will have... heatsoaking the radiator & engine, you'll probably need a big tranny cooler, and being turbo'd you're guaranteed to need a LARGE engine oil cooler as well. I would also be willing to bet that you'll end up melting some of the "soft bits" under the hood from heat exposure from radiant heat off all the turbo plumbing under sustained use/abuse on the track. Also, did you put inconel exhaust valves in? Under roadcourse use with turbos you might "tulip" a set of stainless valves, I see it on boosted boat applications.

[nitrorocket]

Nice bird? :_paranoid

I am using DOT 5.0037123335 fluid. It is a special mixture, Valvoline. Top secret.

Whatever speed I will be slowing down from, I am sure it will be dead fast. And doing that lap after lap, I just want a real good brake. All my buddies run at road america on there bikes quite often. Unfortunatly, none of them have track cars, just bikes. They say they are hitting 165 mph or so on the straight, I am not sure what to do about that, I guess I will just have to part throttle down the straight? I can't wait to go, but I want the car setup before I do. What do the fast guys do? let off on the straights. If they are doing 165, I would be doing about 180+, that seems a little fast??? It sure will be fun setting the car up though! I am all excited, can you tell! :willy:

[nitrorocket]

That is a an add on I will be doing, an oil cooler. Luckily, my turbo setup in not getting hot under 10 psi, which I am sure I will be under most of the time. 10 psi is still about 700 hp.
My major concern is a good brake setup I can put together so I wont spend as much time in the grass. :(

[fatlife]

Nice bird? :_paranoid

I am using DOT 5.0037123335 fluid. It is a special mixture, Valvoline. Top secret.

Whatever speed I will be slowing down from, I am sure it will be dead fast. And doing that lap after lap, I just want a real good brake. All my buddies run at road america on there bikes quite often. Unfortunatly, none of them have track cars, just bikes. They say they are hitting 165 mph or so on the straight, I am not sure what to do about that, I guess I will just have to part throttle down the straight? I can't wait to go, but I want the car setup before I do. What do the fast guys do? let off on the straights. If they are doing 165, I would be doing about 180+, that seems a little fast??? It sure will be fun setting the car up though! I am all excited, can you tell! :willy:


Hey no problem with wanting your car right first! And no offense but you have the mentality of someone who hasn't been to the track, it is a lot different than you think, you just have to go and experience it for yourself. Its not necessarily so special or anything but it is easy to get concepts and misconceptions about it, and come up with goals and a mindset that are not realistic. Don't worry about the straight aways that is the easiest part of the entire track and I guarantee you will be letting off, maybe not a lot, but you won't be going into the corner as deep as you possibly could. For me the hardest part of driving the track is braking late, and holding off to turn in. Your instict when you see that turn coming up is to slow down and turn in when it feels comfortable, but the way to be fast is to brake later and turn in later. But my whole point was that to talk about doing 150 and the whole point of needing good brakes was because you wanted to go really fast down the straight aways is kinda silly. The only expectation you should have is that you are going to be humbled, and will be slow at first, and that you will have a lot to learn.

It will be a lot more fun if you can let go of wanting to be fast, and just enjoy the whole experience and mostly learn and have fun thats what your there for its not a race.

and I am interested to heare what kind of brake fluid you have, you might think I'm being anal but it makes a difference. I applaud you for wanting to take your car to the extreme and actually go out there and use it like it was intended for! So what are you considering doing with the front brakes?
EDIT: I just checked out a map of Road America and damn those are some long straight aways! So maybe you will be hitting those speeds but still I wasn't trying to destroy your goals and such, just trying to show you what you should actually be concerned about :thumbsup:

[fatlife]

BTW I have a great suggestion for you, tape up your speedo so you can't see it. This is something that most intructors will tell you to do. Once you get the whole "fast" thing out of your head you will be light years ahead of yourself. That way you are only driving at your comfort level, not at some predetermined number that you decided while listening to your friends tell you stories.

And If I were you, I would be doing a C5 front setup, you can piece it together and do it very cheaply. Or better yet I belive Dennis68 put together a pretty killer wilwood setup for fairly cheap, with a revised spindle and geometry. I'll look for his website, I don't believe he posts much anymore

EDIT: heres his site, I think he might have the right solution for you;
http://www.onrails.us/
check out his wilwood setup , with the improved spindle, hub, and steering arm

[fatlife]

Good info here.
One thing you need to remember is take a cool down lap so ambient heat doesn't bake the rubber dust seals on the calipers when you park it in the pits.

.

The real good calipers don't even have dust seals for this exact reason, although they will make crappy street brakes. Another thing that you might think about if you are serious about brakes is that the good calipers use titanium or stainless pistons, the stock GM calipers I believe use cast aluminum or something which puts more heat into your fluid.

[Blown353]

The real good calipers don't even have dust seals for this exact reason, although they will make crappy street brakes. Another thing that you might think about if you are serious about brakes is that the good calipers use titanium or stainless pistons, the stock GM calipers I believe use cast aluminum or something which puts more heat into your fluid.

True about the dust seals, which is why I don't like running "racing" brake calipers for street duty-- sucks having to rebuild your calipers every few thousand street miles! Depends on your driving conditions of course.

I know Wilwood and I'm sure others offer insulating pistons (look at the figures of the Thermlock pistons on the Wilwood site) that are lower in conduction because of material selection but also offer radiant heat barriers and a reduced contact areas to keep the pistons and fluid cooler. Stainless and titanium pistons are definately better than aluminum when it comes to thermal conductivity. Wilwoods pistons also greatly minimize the actual pad to piston contact area through some clever machining and built-in airgaps for additional insulation.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/001-STR/index.asp

That is a an add on I will be doing, an oil cooler. Luckily, my turbo setup in not getting hot under 10 psi, which I am sure I will be under most of the time. 10 psi is still about 700 hp.
My major concern is a good brake setup I can put together so I wont spend as much time in the grass. :(

Lower boost and correspondingly higher timing will keep the EGT's down which should help minimize thermal problems under the hood with all the turbo plumbing... but I would still expect problems the first time you hit the track. Murphy is a crafty fellow. :_paranoid

Definately run high octane gas at the track. Your street tune which may not detonate during occasional WOT blasts on 93 octane may detonate like mad once you start using sustained heavy throttle which will heatsoak the engine and combustion chambers. You may even have to step down to colder plugs.

[clill]

I haven't read all you have done but I am assuming you have not done a track day. A trick to going fast around a track is braking late but you don't have to. Go sign up for a track day and go in the beginner class. It is easy to slow down for the corner early enough so you hardly need the brakes. You won't be the fastest but you will be out there learning. Get a instructor to ride along and show you apexes etc. After a couple sessions you will have a better feeling if you even like track events. You might also figure out you need a different oil pan to keep from starving for oil in extended turns. Depending on how your boost comes on you might even be dialing it back so it doesn't suprise you in a turn. We had the boost on the Mule dialed back. You might figure out all kinds of stuff you want to change on the car.

[71Nova]

From what I know about NitroRocket, I would be surprised if he hasn't been to 150 already. He has one of my favorite engines on this site putting out over 900 horse! and he seems Crazy enough to do it frequently. I aplaud you for finally wanting to make your car safer.

[nitrorocket]

I have a pretty good idea what it takes to make it around the track except the adrenaline rush part! Sound a little small scale, but I am a very good and experienced RC car racer. Same principles, but real life. :D I just want to have some real fun. I have a buddy who was a track instructor at RA and we have torn it up a little, great fun!

Anyway. I just run a DOT 4 SYNTHETIC, I think, I havent looked at the bottle since winter. It is Valvoline brand though.

I might consider the C5 swap, But I really like the pure strength of the new ZO6 brakes, I could never see brake fade with those. I have to start doing alot of research on calipers and go from there.

I was really concerned about the high speeds because I have such a high powered heavy car that really taxes the brakes. Road America has some rediculously long straights and that brings some serious MPH!

I have always wanted to get into road racing. I am a very aggressive driver on the street and really want to take it to the track. Country backroads are real fun at 100+ but dangerous. Any sport bike rider will know what I am talking about. I regretfully had to sell the bike, and I really miss the "rides", but the car will do just the same......with a radio too! Yes, I drive the cars like they are meant to be driven. No trailer Queens for me! :D

What class do you race???, Bike I assume?

[Elusive R]

Before you dump a bunch of money on the new ZO6 stuff, you might want to research it on the Corvette boards. There are more than a few Vette owners having a terrible time with those brakes at track events. Pads are very epensive, too, and there is just the OEM street compound available. They're ok for the street and very light track (or end of the dragstrip type stuff), but that's on a car much lighter than yours. If might be worth your while to call up some brake manufacturers and see what they can do for you. Regular C5 brakes might be a better option because the pad choice is huge.

From what I've read at Corner-Carvers (whose members include many instructors), you'll need to make sure you're very open to learning at the track. I don't think any instructor will be comfortable with you going anywhere near that fast your first time out - and if you do so against their wishes, you'll be done.

Ryan

[Teetoe_Jones]

We have the best street/track day setup you could get to bolt onto your car. More than likely it will require a much larger wheel, but 150-0 will be very repeatable.

Take a look at the AFX spindle, then look at the AP Racing brake setup.

Tyler

[camcojb]

I might consider the C5 swap, But I really like the pure strength of the new ZO6 brakes, I could never see brake fade with those.


As others have said, when tracked the C6 Z has brake issues. And if they do with a 3100 pound car, you can imagine with your weight.

You'll need more brake than that for hard track use.

Jody

[fatlife]

I have a pretty good idea what it takes to make it around the track except the adrenaline rush part! Sound a little small scale, but I am a very good and experienced RC car racer. Same principles, but real life. I just want to have some real fun. I have a buddy who was a track instructor at RA and we have torn it up a little, great fun!

Anyway. I just run a DOT 4 SYNTHETIC, I think, I havent looked at the bottle since winter. It is Valvoline brand though.

I might consider the C5 swap, But I really like the pure strength of the new ZO6 brakes, I could never see brake fade with those. I have to start doing alot of research on calipers and go from there.

I was really concerned about the high speeds because I have such a high powered heavy car that really taxes the brakes. Road America has some rediculously long straights and that brings some serious MPH!

I have always wanted to get into road racing. I am a very aggressive driver on the street and really want to take it to the track. Country backroads are real fun at 100+ but dangerous. Any sport bike rider will know what I am talking about. I regretfully had to sell the bike, and I really miss the "rides", but the car will do just the same......with a radio too! Yes, I drive the cars like they are meant to be driven. No trailer Queens for me!

What class do you race???, Bike I assume?


Man, you know it all :wow: :rolleyes: :D you have some good ideas but just still need to let down on the macho attitude. I too thought I was pretty bad ass, until I realized I didn't know anything. But you are right, Road america looks ridiculous fast, and you will need some good brakes but like Charlie said your first day, or at least the first half of the day, don't worry about blasting down the straight. You sound like you are more worried about going fast down teh straight away then taking the turns quickly. Why even go to the track if your goal is top speed? I thought we already had this discussion????
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5415/cunningplanrk7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
But don't worry your outlook on all this is very typical for an inexperienced driver. Everyone thinks they are mario andretti unti they crash and burn

I don't race, and yes the bike. and for the record, I'm sure you'll make a great driver and such, but typically a lot of the guys who think they are great drivers from hauling ass up in the hills suddenly realize that they don't know anything and realize just how slow they really were, ask any biker how much slower and boring the street is after going to the track. Anyway this is getting repetative. Let us know what you plan to do in terms of braking. Don't do the Z06 stuff its crap, the C6/C5 stuff can't be beat for the price.

Here is what you need to do;
Do a C5 brake setup with some really good pads, Hawk race pads would be "okay" then spend the extra money you are saving on a set of good tires. Get some R compound tires, that will be the biggest improvement you can do. If you used to ride bikes than you should also know that tires are HUGE, same applies to cars, You will be able to not only brake harder but will get much more grip and stabilty. You should be able to do the C5 conversion for $4-$600 maybe even less

EDIT: sorry if I sound harsh or coming down on you, but after a few trackdays you will come back and read your posts and understand why I kinda jumped on you. You are heading in the right direction, and I woudln't worry about getting the car top notch, I would just take it as-is(maybe with the brakes and tires) and take it out there. Don't have any goals or expectations from yourself, just go do it to have fun and see what its about. Then over the winter build your car up. I think this would be a MUCH better plan, then building your car all up, and then going out and trying to beat a land speed record, and either crash trying, or dissapoint yourself and get stressed out. And for the record I am not great driver nor do I have years of experience doing it, but it was only a little while ago when I thought just like you did, and so I recognize what you are thinking. Whatever you do have fun and be safe because at the end of the day, you will never be the fastest and its much more fun to just relax and enjoy yourself :cheers:

[Damn True]

I have a pretty good idea what it takes to make it around the track except the adrenaline rush part! Sound a little small scale, but I am a very good and experienced RC car racer. Same principles, but real life. :D



:rofl:
So by that logic since I play Tom Clancy's "Splinter Cell" a bunch I am totally qualified for Special Forces Duty, and since I spank the monkey quite a bit that means I am good in bed.

[nitrorocket]

We have the best street/track day setup you could get to bolt onto your car. More than likely it will require a much larger wheel, but 150-0 will be very repeatable.

Take a look at the AFX spindle, then look at the AP Racing brake setup.

Tyler


Is that the fancy looking AP brakes above the touring classics set on your site??

[nitrorocket]

I want to set the car up first because a good car can help make up for a crappy driver! :D
Practice makes perfect and I am sure I will learn a ton on the first day. Luckily I have an experienced buddy I will bring along to show me as many pointers as he can to speed up the learning curve. I was real concerned with the speed because, the faster you go the less effective brakes are. That is my main concern, the brakes might help save me If I get ahead of myself!! :D I am excited about going, I am a super agressive driver and on the track I will be able to actually push myself to my limits and not have to worry about dangering myself or others, I can't wait. It has to be an absolute blast! By no means am I going because I think I am the best or to try and break any records, I just want to have fun and drive as fast as I can. :D

I am not wanting to go with a true race tire.... I used to run Pirelli PZERO slicks on the street a couple years ago! The problem was, they would take way to long to heat up before they would actually grip.... I was getting in trouble trying to go WAY faster then I should on off ramps and such to heat them up to get traction from them. What I am saying is, I have to have a tire that will grip on the street also. I cannot afford to run 2 sets of wheels and tires for track and street, I am forced to go dual purpose.

Really sounds like the C5 setup is the way to go from all the posts about them. I am really suprised about the negative feedback on the ZO6 stuff?? Those rotors and calipers look massive!! :faint:

Thanks for all the info, there is alot of good stuff here!!

[Payton King]

a full day of tracking your car hard will waste a set of tires. Especially with the weight of your car. I think you will find that your street tires will get "greasy" pretty quick .

[nitrorocket]

What tires have you run? I was thinking the BFG G-Force, or Some Pilots?

[fatlife]

Some R compound tires would work just fine on the street, some Toyo RA1's or anyting along those lines would work great on teh street and track.

[HAULNSS]

a full day of tracking your car hard will waste a set of tires. Especially with the weight of your car. I think you will find that your street tires will get "greasy" pretty quick .

A good set of street tires will last. I just replaced a set of Bridgestone RE730's with RE750's. (The RE730's aren't made anymore )

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6355/tires60bn.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tires60bn.jpg) http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4354/tires57uz.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tires57uz.jpg) http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9027/tires46fv.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tires46fv.jpg) http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9547/tires10gi.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tires10gi.jpg)

Those tires have about 28k miles on my Impala SS. As well as normal street duty, they have worked through more than 5 high speed open track events at BIR (3.1 mile track) and MAM (2.3 mile track). Each event was 90 to 100 miles on the track. There is several drag race days and a high speed autocross event (1.3 mile) on them also. My street driving has been called 'rental car like'. :lol:

I could only rotate front to rear and kept an eye on the pressure. I usually run them a little on the high side for PSI.

If it wasn't for the occasional rain that I have to drive in, those tires would still be on the car. I was really impressed with them. The new RE750's seem to work well too after one event, but don't 'look' as nice as the RE730's.

Just stay away from the $100 tires and you should be able to find a good street / track tire. Drive smooth with a decent suspension set up and you can make tires last a little while. I think the 1000 horsepower will be the hardest thing on your tires!

Randy

[nitrorocket]

Anyone ever try a drag radial at the track? Like BFG or MT. They are sticky as hell, and besides the wear, I would think they would work ok. I am a little afraid of how dangeroud my car would be with a harder compound then my Drag radials. So far they have not shown any weekness on the street for turning and allow me enough traction to not spin out at speed. Plus I am getting a few thousand miles out of them! :_paranoid

[Mkelcy]

I am excited about going, I am a super agressive driver and on the track I will be able to actually push myself to my limits and not have to worry about dangering myself or others

Wrong. I'm not sure how much high performance driving (or motorcycling) experience you have, but the idea is to learn how to go fast, not simply to be "aggressive." There is a huge difference between any high performance driving simulation (street driving, RC cars, computer sim games, etc.) and actually having your life (and the lives of others) at risk if you screw up. Race tracks are dangerous; driving fast on race tracks is dangerous; driving fast on race tracks with novice drivers who are "super agressive" is the most dangerous of all.

You've started several threads about setting your car up for extreme high performance driving situations. In each thread, experienced drivers and builders have taken the time to share their experiences with you, in particular to advise you to forget about how fast you're going and to learn how to go fast. You have largely chosen to ignore (or at least not acknowledge) the safety warnings and persist in the pursuit of the extreme high performance driving situation. If you act on the race track as you have on this board, I truly fear that we will shortly be reading about a terrible crash at RA involving a Chevelle, simply because you've been more focussed on going fast than being safe.

[camcojb]

The street tires I've seen after a hard day at the track have been balled up pretty good, right Charley??!!! :unibrow: I do think they "come around" after driving them on the street again.


Jody

[nitrorocket]

By aggressive I mean I am not afraid to go fast. The only thing I was ever afraid of was those darn triple jumps in the motocross days! :(

Like I said, I want to get out there so I can drive to the limits of MY abilitys. I have heard everything you guys have said. And again, I have been asking for input on safety like suspension, brakes, etc. to go real fast, because I have a real fast car. Those things become more important. I want to set the car up for where I am going to be with track time under nmy belt, not for my first time out.

It takes practice to become a better driver, but that is not what I am asking. I want to know how to set the car up to go fast 1st safely in the handling dept and braking, THEN, I will take it to the track and get used to it. That is surely safer then taking a sh*t box to the track and crashing cause the car is not setup for racing? Correct?? Skill will come obviously, but the car has to be setup 1st, thats why I am asking about car setups and accessories. :)

[nitrorocket]

The street tires I've seen after a hard day at the track have been balled up pretty good, right Charley??!!! :unibrow: I do think they "come around" after driving them on the street again.


Jody


What do you mean? What tires??

[fatlife]

GO with some R compound tires, that is what your drag radials are made out of, but the non dragradial ones will have a stiffer sidewall which will make them better for turning. They will heat up quickly on the street and track, and you won't break the bank either. Best of both worlds. Nitto, Toyo, and a few other companies make them.

[nitrorocket]

Anyone try the BFG R1 tires? The inside half looks almost slick? I would think they would work real well. Has anybody put them up against the Toyo RA1??

[HAULNSS]

Here you go. Click here! (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=5535)

Run your car on one of the fastest tracks in the U.S. :yes:

The straight is one mile long. With any luck the tire wall will save the trees from any significant damage. :rofl:

It isn't that far from you... :unibrow:

Randy

Edit for some teaser pics....
151 mph? (http://www.minnessota.com/pictures/Pic_313_23.jpg)
Mile long straight (http://www.minnessota.com/pictures/Pic_313_27.jpg)
Who would run a big car on the track? (http://www.minnessota.com/pictures/Pic_313_21.jpg) :willy:

:unibrow:

[Blown353]

One thing to remember and keep in mind is the REAL fun on the roadcourse is getting into and powering out of the turns-- You can signifantly increase your safety factor and take a lot of "wear and tear" off the equipment if you impose a top-speed cap down the straight parts of the track and also let off and brake earlier.

You will still have a lot of fun and your car will thank you for it. :P

It *IS* hard to control yourself though... many guys get out there and immediately overdrive their ability. I've seen it many times at Ferrari Club track days back when my Dad used to have his and we would go out on track rental days with the club. Lots of guys balled their cars up from ego-related mishaps. Once you get over the mental thing of feeling the artificial "need" to drive at 11/10th of your own and your car's ability on a casual open track day you'll have a lot more fun. Just keep it sane and work the speed up slowly, it's much better to run into ability or vehicle shortcomings at lower speeds. Tire barriers, K-rails, and rollovers all suck. Seen 'em all. Work on being smooth first, THEN work on being fast. The mental discipline thing can be real tough though as most guys, even inexperienced, go out and drive foot to the floor. Sometimes they get away with it... other times they hurt the car, themselves, or others. And definately get an experienced instructor.

I can't remember, what front suspension do you run now? Going to Denny's setup (Coleman spindles, Wilwood brakes, etc) or an AFX-based setup would be a HUGE improvement in the geometry and handling predictability department and also get you some better brakes. The B-body setup sucks at high speeds because of the massive amounts of bump steer, I have had a few very scary moments above 130 in my car with the bump steer on the B-body setup. Still needs to be swapped out.

As far as the rear suspension, as long as you keep the factory 4-link in your car that will always be the drawback because of the super-high rear roll center height... but the factory 4 link with all spherical joints and the built in roll-understeer will be quite predictable at the limit. That limit will just be lower than with a well designed rear suspension. I abuse my car all the time in turns and the traction limit of the rear is what holds me back-- but once it breaks loose it stays in a nice controllable slip as long as you don't do anything stupid on the throttle or brakes while it's sliding. I've actually gone to a less-aggressive front alignment to cut down on front end traction because I was getting too much oversteer with the "fun" front end alignment which was overpowering the available rear traction.

On the tire subject, I recently drove a track-prepped 'Stang on RA1's and was very impressed with the mannerisms on the street especially when cold-- way more traction than say Hoosier RS-series slicks when they are cold (aka: ice.) Once heated up the RA1's stuck very well, but obviously didn't hold a candle to hot Hoosiers. For a dual purpose tire R-compounds are nice!

Also think about a track alignment setting with additional caster and camber. More caster for straightline stability, more camber for cornering ability until you put so much in you affect stability under braking. You'll also need less toe-in (possibly toe out) to compensate for the inward thrust that is a component of the additional negative camber. Now is also the time to start thinking about stiffer springs, etc. Depends what you're running now. For our boatly A-bodies you will probably end up in the 850-950#/in range up front with a 1-1.125" sway bar and around 175-200#/in out back. Don't skimp on shocks either, cheap shocks with poor valving and high speed is a bad combination!

[fatlife]

^^^^^^^
great post and very well spoken. Oh and by the way, you won't be "racing" anyone but yourself. Remember that racing is totally differnet than an open track day. I know its hard to say driving at the track or something, but if you go to the trackday and talk about racing people are gonna look at you funny ;)

[HAULNSS]

^^^^^^^
great post and very well spoken. Oh and by the way, you won't be "racing" anyone but yourself. Remember that racing is totally differnet than an open track day. I know its hard to say driving at the track or something, but if you go to the trackday and talk about racing people are gonna look at you funny ;)


I agree, there are a lot of good posts and tons of good info. :thumbsup: The good thing about open track versus 'race days? Our open track days are considered 'driving schools' ;) and most insurance companies will still cover the car. If it is timed or competetive, insurance is usually null and void. :yes:

They might look at him funny anyway...... :lol:

Randy

[Blown353]

Oh, and start shopping for a good extinguisher just in case.

Don't get the standard powdered type, the powder is HIGHLY corrosive to aluminum... especially when you try and rinse it off afterwards.

Although if there's one thing Murphy taught me it's that your extinguisher never seems to be big enough... :willy:

If 1 is good, 2 are better, although a in-car suppression system AND a supplemental hand extinguisher is best. No sense in filling your interior with junk unless you absolutely have to!

[nitrorocket]

The rear suspension is good to go, except for sway bar selection. The front is stock except for the poly bushings. I notice a lot of understeer with the setup I have now in high speed sweepers. I thought B body spindles helped camber and you could get bumpsteer spacers??

[Teetoe_Jones]

The rear suspension is good to go, except for sway bar selection. The front is stock except for the poly bushings. I notice a lot of understeer with the setup I have now in high speed sweepers. I thought B body spindles helped camber and you could get bumpsteer spacers??

The camber gain is nice on the B body spindles, but the bumpsteer spacers don't work properly, as the spacers put the tie rod lower, and it needs to go higher. The turning radius also sucks on the b body spindle.
Best option is the Stage 2 SC&C kit, or our AFX tall spindles with steering arms. With our tall AFX spindle, you get all the camber gain you could ever want, your turning radius doesn't get effected, track width remains the same, and our bumpsteer is the best in the industry. You want to go fast on the road course, and have a C5 brake package, then we are your E ticket.

Tyler

[fatlife]

I agree, there are a lot of good posts and tons of good info. :thumbsup:
Randy

Yeah this is a great thread, not only do we get to give great advice, we can stroke our egos at the same time! :rofl: :rofl: ............... :_paranoid

[Blown353]

The rear suspension is good to go, except for sway bar selection. The front is stock except for the poly bushings. I notice a lot of understeer with the setup I have now in high speed sweepers. I thought B body spindles helped camber and you could get bumpsteer spacers??

With springs in the weight ranges I suggested a rear sway bar should not be required at except as a tuning aid to dial in a little more oversteer (aka: driver preference.) I run no rear bar and the rear drifts ever so slightly with my setup which is exactly what I wanted.

Given the stock way of mounting a rear sway bar to an A-body the swaybar effectiveness is marginal at best which is why I prefer to tune the rear with springs rather than a bar. If it comes down to needing a rear bar a MUCH better way to do it would be to retrofit a 3rd gen F-body sway bar setup on the car, where the bar swivels on bushings attached to the axle tube then there are hard uplinks going to the frame.

My setup is as follows:

Front: B-body spindles, alignment specs of +5.5 caster / -1.0 camber / 0 toe, 1.125" sway bar, 750# springs (going to 900 or 950# when I change the spindles.) 255/45/17 tires on 9.5" wheels. The car does pull a little bit to the right on the street because I have no cross caster to compensate for road crown. Doesn't bug me, don't have any cross camber or caster in my daily driver either.

Rear: GW TBC-4 lowers, Edelbrock uppers with rubber in the rear end ears, Hypercoil 175# springs. 285/40 tires on 11" wheels.

Shocks all around are Edelbrock IAS which have better rebound control than most in the price range, but still aren't ideal. I am looking at picking up some single adjustable Varishocks from a friend who is a WD for them.

Given the weight of an A-body I chose tires that would end up being installed on the widest wheels recommended by the mfg to minimize sidewall deflection/squirm. I may try a 275/40 & 315/35 setup next time to see if the additional rubber (theoretically more overall grip) outweighs negatives of additional sidewall squirm (theoretically less turn-in feel) compared to the current setup.

As far as the stock front suspension... no wonder you're pushing! The stock suspension has terrible camber gain properties-- in fact, it's reversed! It goes positive on compression. Bump steer is so-so and the roll center is too low. It has everything designed in backwards to what you want in a performance app, but is perfectly safe for grandma (i.e. it pushes really, really badly!)

B-body spindles help raise the roll center a bit and change the FVSA to give better camber gain but they also slow the steering ratio, screw up ackermann, and dramatically increase the bump steer. For a long time it was the "hot ticket" simply because there were no other alternatives short of custom, but now there are lots better options... SC&C stage 2 with stock spindles, ATS spindles, or the "Denny" setup with the Coleman spindles, although with the Colemans and their pin drop that setup is best utilized on very low ride heights. I believe the Coleman setup is better than the AFX setup geometry wise by a hair (and I mean a tiny, tiny bit) but for more "street friendly" ride heights the AFX has the advantage because it puts the control arms in a more favorable spot for lateral scrub because the AFX spindles have less pin drop. If used at the more street friendly ride height the Coleman setup puts the control arms at a slightly less favorable angle. If you don't mind your front X-member about 2.5" off the pavement with 25.7" tall tires then the Coleman setup is pretty badass... at least with stock control arm locations and lengths. Getting much better than the AFX or Coleman setup would likely require custom control arms and revised mounting locations.

[chicane]

Curious of any brake issues anyone has hauling there heavy cars down from 100-150 mph time and time again on the road course. Any recomendations on rotors, pads, or calipers?

Sure.

[nitrorocket]

Hmm, Right now I am looking at Hal adjustables in all 4 corners, HR parts rear bar, 500lb springs in front with 150's in rear(I need to tune with a roll bar to have a little more weight transfer, I have alot of power to hook), C5 front discs and calipers. Not sure on tires yet, I have to see what brands are available in my sizes.
I just need to research front suspension geometry and make some front control arms. Anyone try the longer ball joints to correct the negative camber problem?? I have not heard anything negative.
This stuff should get me going enough to make the car work pretty well I think. I also need to tighten up my steering a little, I can steer closk to lock with my pinky finger! It is so easy to steer that If I wasn't more used to the car, it could be dangerous. The wife has been complaining when she tries to accelerate or corner quick, it is to easy to over compensate... kind of dangerous for her. Anyone know of any tricks to lower the pressure in the ls1 steering pump??

Great input!

[fatlife]

Great idea, on the steering gear, that alone will make a huge differnec. Your suspension setup idea sounds good for the street/strip but not all that great for the track. However you don't have to have the super track suspension just to go. But I wouldn't be thinking about trying to go super fast like you have with that setup.

[Blown353]

Hmm, Right now I am looking at Hal adjustables in all 4 corners, HR parts rear bar, 500lb springs in front with 150's in rear(I need to tune with a roll bar to have a little more weight transfer, I have alot of power to hook), C5 front discs and calipers. Not sure on tires yet, I have to see what brands are available in my sizes.
I just need to research front suspension geometry and make some front control arms. Anyone try the longer ball joints to correct the negative camber problem?? I have not heard anything negative.
This stuff should get me going enough to make the car work pretty well I think. I also need to tighten up my steering a little, I can steer closk to lock with my pinky finger! It is so easy to steer that If I wasn't more used to the car, it could be dangerous. The wife has been complaining when she tries to accelerate or corner quick, it is to easy to over compensate... kind of dangerous for her. Anyone know of any tricks to lower the pressure in the ls1 steering pump??

Great input!

OK... here are some suggestions:

The HAL/QA1 shocks are old-news. For a resonably priced adjustable shock there is no better option going right now than Varishocks IMO and also based upon track experience with a friend who runs them on a couple of his Mustangs that see HARD track time. The Varishocks hold damping rates much better and the "street" versions have much better and more durable bushings compared to QA1s. Marcus at SC&C feels the same way about them too. Same price as QA1's, too. There are many better choices out there but they all come with a bigger pricetag.

No offense but your car is gonna wallow like a pig with those softy springs and I know this from experience, I used to run springs with nearly identical rates as what you suggested (550/150) and tried all different bar combinations up to a max of 1.5" front / 1.125" rear... all of them sucked IMO. Feel free to try sticking some massive bars on there to compensate for it but having done the soft spring/big bar and then the big spring/soft bar approach on my car the big spring/soft bar approach works better and is much more predictable. (If you do try the big bar approach make sure you reinforce the mounts in the front frame for the bar before that big bar tears the bolts through the tapped holes in the frame.) Counting on the springs to do your weight transfer isn't the best way, better way is through suspension geometry. This isn't the drag strip so no need for 90/10 shocks and softie springs! Swapping springs on these cars is a piece of cake anyways.

No need (or reason IMO) to make new front control arms unless you want to increase their length and run more backspace on the front wheels for less scrub radius, but unless you move the spring pocket outwards too the longer arms will have a undesireable change in the motion ratio. The stock arms with plate reinforcements for the LBJ will be plenty good, or go to aftermarket (I like GW and del-a-lums.) Marcus's kit with the tall BJ's does an excellent job with the geometry and you can still use your stock spindle.

As far as your steering... short of custom, I'm still in love with my DSE 600 series box. Superb feel with u-joints on the steering shaft and all fresh steering bits. The Lee Mfg / ATS box would be a fantastic choice too.

[David Pozzi]

With your power level and car weight, you are right to worry about your brake system. Having a brake failure on a high speed track could endanger you and others on the track. Repeated laps will heat up all the systems in your car so coolers are needed for almost everything. I've seen power steering heat failures, so include a PS cooler too. A good aftermarket box with increased stiffness is what you need. Reducing pressure on your current box will show up in lack of boost when parking at low rpm's, not what you want.

My wife's 425hp 73 Camaro with the 13" Baer brakes went through the original pads in the first open track weekend. We swapped in better pads and increased braking distances and they are lasting much better, but there is no way we can brake near the limits of tire traction for repeated laps. We get some brake fluid related fade when we brake very hard which tells me our caliper temps are running very high. Our next step is to add brake ducting which will help a lot. We used the Valvoline fluid at first, but Motul or Willwood synthetic has a higher temp rating.

For your car I'd strongly suggest using the largest rotors you can fit and a good four piston caliper. The C5 brakes are not going to fit in your 17" wheels. Add brake ducts and brake early for the turns, enter the turns a bit slow and take a late apex to reduce the chances of going off course on corner exit. At the end of the track session, (checkered flag) -slow down and stay off the brakes, allow them to cool down or you will melt the seals out of the calipers when you stop. Cool off laps are for cooling off, not getting in an "extra" hot lap!

RA is a very fast track, you need to upgrade your steering box, springs shocks and antiroll bars, etc. It will make the car much easier to drive on the track.
David

[Blown353]

The C5 brakes are not going to fit in your 17" wheels.

David, are you sure? I've seen C5 calipers inside several 17" wheels, however the calipers need quite a bit of face clearance and depending on the backside spoke profile of the wheels you might need spacers (or different wheels.) Just asking for some clarification.

[nitrorocket]

Super good info!

I was looing at Hals for the front, because I like that the fronts replace the shock AND spring and turns it into a wanna be coil over to adjust ride height. The longer ball joints sound like they might be the cheapest and easiest route to correct some of the front geometry problems. I am very suprised the C5 brakes have heat up issues that bad... That is why I am a little comcerned with the brakes, Having a car that gets up and moves instantly, I will be going faster between turns which means I will be harder on the brakes, Big time! It was mentioned that the calipers might be the culprit in getting to hot, could a large Brembo, Wilwood, or Alcon caliper solve that? Or does it partly come down to rotor size? It might help me a little that I have 315's in the rear... I am getting away with quite a bit of break bias shifted to the rear, that takes a little load off the front brakes!

I was going to try to use a little heavier sway bar to compensate for semi weak springs so I would still have a little more weight transfer, If I take away all the weight tranfer, the car will never hook up and be fairly dangerous. Plus trying to hook up now is a problem. I realize I cannot have the best of both worlds, but I want to try to retain some transfer if possible. Anyone lake the adjsutable BIG BAR type rar sway bar kit for the Chevelle that sets the bar on the rear end? I was looking at some mustang sights that offer them, but most are a tad to short to get the mounts on the frame in the correct spot in the rear.

[Blown353]

Concerning the front coilover kits for a-bodies... because of their "bolt in" nature they are less than ideal and in the case of QA1 (at least a while back when I considered it) there really aren't any springs available that are heavy enough to do the job right. Also, because the spring sits against the spring perch up in the frame and the shock swivels on the upper bushings the spring induces some sideloading on the shaft and shock body because the spring is working against two different points of reference rather than against the shaft and the body only. If you wanted to do coilovers up front do it RIGHT and mod the upper frame mount with a double shear setup to hold a true coilover (i.e. one with the spring seated on the coilover body itself and not against the frame) with a rod end for the upper end of the coilover mount, similar to what DSE does with their coilover conversions for stock F-body subframes.

An easier and cheaper solution is to use the adjustable spring spacers with 9.5" x 5" circle track springs and standard shocks. I've been running that setup for a while now and it works very well for not much money, plus the springs are cheap so you can keep an inventory for fine tuning.

[nitrorocket]

I suppose the "real" coilovers would not be a hard swap in the front. I would just have to figure out a length and travel I needed to make them work.
The ATS spindles say they come with the C5 hub. Does this mean it has the 5x5 bolt circle?? Does anyone know if they are available without the hubs. I would just need the spindles.

What negative effects have people encountered from using stiff sway bars to support the car in turns versus just the springs? Like I said earlier, Being that this is a driver, I need it to have a little more weight transfer then 900 lb springs will give me!

[David Pozzi]

David, are you sure? I've seen C5 calipers inside several 17" wheels, however the calipers need quite a bit of face clearance and depending on the backside spoke profile of the wheels you might need spacers (or different wheels.) Just asking for some clarification.

Sorry, I was thinking of the C6 Z06 brakes not the C5 brakes.

One thing I've found out is the Baer two piston calipers we have on the 73 use aluminum pistons. While light, they transmit a lot of heat into the brake fluid. There are Stainless steel aftermarket Corvette racing pistons you can buy but they delete the dust seals, "since they melt anyway" I was told. Surf the net for Corvette brake issues, there are lots of vettes being run in open track events.

I suspect most late Camaro and C5 std calipers use the aluminum pistons too, which makes them less than ideal for track use on a heavy car.
David

[David Pozzi]

Do you have stock front coils now?

[fatlife]

The real good calipers don't even have dust seals for this exact reason, although they will make crappy street brakes. Another thing that you might think about if you are serious about brakes is that the good calipers use titanium or stainless pistons, the stock GM calipers I believe use cast aluminum or something which puts more heat into your fluid.
:D i know, i know

[fatlife]

I still say, put some decent brakes on, or even leave the stock ones on, and go to the track, learn it, and have fun. THEN upgrade the car heavily. You need to first see if you like it. Its easy to come up wtih pipe dreams about building the most killer track car and such, but you end up putting all your time and effort into building the car, not building your skills. If you can put the speed thing to the side, I think you would benefit from actually attending 1 trackday first, and then deciding what you want to do with the car. But if you are still insiting on being ricky racer I would recommend to maybe go to a school first and use one of their cars.

[nitrorocket]

I still say, put some decent brakes on, or even leave the stock ones on, and go to the track, learn it, and have fun. THEN upgrade the car heavily. You need to first see if you like it. Its easy to come up wtih pipe dreams about building the most killer track car and such, but you end up putting all your time and effort into building the car, not building your skills. If you can put the speed thing to the side, I think you would benefit from actually attending 1 trackday first, and then deciding what you want to do with the car. But if you are still insiting on being ricky racer I would recommend to maybe go to a school first and use one of their cars.



I see what your saying, but at least if the car is setup 1st, I can concentrate more on driving. My car would be pitifull right now (except between turns :D ).
I have been drag racing the car for 13 years. I know if I start going to a road track, Just like drag rading, I will love it, I have not gone because my car has not been setup to take advantage of a road track.
This winter I will put a bar in for now and get the suspension/brakes squared away. The brakes seem to be an easy choice(C5), but suspension/shocks/steering is the hard part as there are alot of choices and different directions to go. I am taking a liking to those AFX spindles!

I have stock cut coils in the front now. I guess it would be as easy as welding a perch on both the lower control arm and and up into the stock spring pocket to get a coilover shock in there. I wonder if they make a 500+ lb spring for a standard coilover?

[fatlife]

The AFX spindles are def sweet!

[David Pozzi]

One thing will happen that I'd like to warn you about.

Having a car with poor cornering but lots of horsepower is tough for other cars you will be on track with. To prevent irritating them please allow quicker cars to pass you when you get to the next straight stretch. Avoid mashing the gas to show them how much horsepower you have. Just let them by and get on with learning how to get your car around the track.

It's very frustrating to follow a slower car through the turns just to have him leave you on the straights and then wind up back on his bumper at the next turn. RA is a long track and after you let them by it will be easier to concentrate on getting the corners right without someone on your tail.

Following this recomendation will gain you a lot of respect from others who share the track with you.
David

[Teetoe_Jones]

You have questions about the spindles?
Try this:
http://www.t56kit.com/FAQ/

FYI- The C5 hub is standard 5 on 4.75" bolt pattern, but it does use a metric lig of 12mmx1.5 thread pitch.

Tyler

[fatlife]

One thing will happen that I'd like to warn you about.



It's very frustrating to follow a slower car through the turns just to have him leave you on the straights and then wind up back on his bumper at the next turn. RA is a long track and after you let them by it will be easier to concentrate on getting the corners right without someone on your tail.

Following this recomendation will gain you a lot of respect from others who share the track with you.
David

Yes, that is the worst. What this also does is make you someone else go faster, when you have to past the slow people on the straight aways, they always try and gun it. So to pass them you have to go faster than what you are usually comfortable with, and it can make you enter the turn faster and either crash or make you stress.

This thread is full of great info, maybe there should be a sticky about if you are serious about going to the track.

[nitrorocket]

This is turning into good info! (after you finished bashing me for no good reason.)

I weill have to get a local rule book on R/A, but I assume you cannot go fast at all untill you prove yourself?? Otherwise, any idiot newbie in a 1 million horsepower car could go there and kill himself or others! :_paranoid

Those AFX spindles are great! I wonder if he would take a pair of turbos in trade!, Or maybe a coin collection, stamp collection, Wife, or RC car!!LOL :D

Hey ATS..... Are those available without the hubs? Just need the spindles.

How large are the new ZO6 rotors?? I don't see why the C5 calipers would not work with the newer o6 rotors?

[68protouring454]

the c5 calipers will work with the c6 z-51 brake package which the front rotors measure 13-3/8 actual, and a full 13 on the rear rotors, compared to i htink 12.8 and 11 on the reg c5 stuff, all you need to do the z-51 is c5 calipers and z-51 rotors and abutments(mounts)
the c6 z06 brakes are completely different and will not interchange

[fatlife]

This is turning into good info! (after you finished bashing me for no good reason.)
No one is bashing you, only trying to help you out. After everyone is trying to help you, that is what you say? :mad:
Otherwise, any idiot newbie in a 1 million horsepower car could go there and kill himself or others! :_paranoid



They don't care what car you have, just how experienced you are. And what you described is what we are trying to keep you from doing. I hope you take something positive away from all this

[nitrorocket]

I know, I'm just having fun!

:D

[Teetoe_Jones]

Hey ATS..... Are those available without the hubs? Just need the spindles.




Yes, but you have to supply us with your hubs. We MUST install them, as it requires special fixtures and tooling.


Tyler

[nitrorocket]

What is the charge? What is the cost without the hubs?? Shoot me a P.M. I need to start putting a dollar figure on this stuff.

Also, does that mean if a bearing goes bad I have to send the whole spindle back in? After it is in the car, what fixturing could you possibly need?? I change these quite a bit at the shop, just curious?

[fatlife]

I think "just the hub" isn't part of the entire hub assembly. I believe that the entire hub assembly bolts to the spindle, but I could be totally off on this?

[Teetoe_Jones]

We use a stud on the bottom of our flange, which requires our fixture for drilling,, and when these are not installed on the car, it is impossible to torque the bolts correctly.
Bottom line is we will sell AFX spindles without hubs, but we will not ship them until we install your supplied hubs. We rarely get a request for this as most people who think they can save a few $$ find out that 1 hub typically cost 3/4 of what our spindles do.
The other reason is liability. I know we install them correctly, so I cannot be held responsible for a failure due to improper install. Pricing on the bare AFX spindle is $445 for a pair.


Tyler

[David Pozzi]

Track instructors watch for overdriving and if the student doesn't show some self-control he will be talked to and eventually booted off the track before he hurts himself or someone else.

Learning the proper racing line is all-important. You can't begin to get a good lap time until you know exactly where you need to place the car in every turn and straight, and can do it with consistently.

Another thing you will learn is having a car on your butt will mess up your driving. You are allready 100% focused on driving your car, then a fast vette get's on your tail and you will start driving even harder to shake him or at least show him you are not so slow. THAT'S when you are most likely to drop a wheel off the track or make some other mistake. I tend to hurry my shifts when I'm in that situation and can sometimes miss a shift.
David

[fatlife]

Another thing you will learn is having a car on your butt will mess up your driving. You are allready 100% focused on driving your car, then a fast vette get's on your tail and you will start driving even harder to shake him or at least show him you are not so slow. THAT'S when you are most likely to drop a wheel off the track or make some other mistake. I tend to hurry my shifts when I'm in that situation and can sometimes miss a shift.
David

This is very true, I had a someone pass my on the long straight at T-hill. Once we got into turn 1 I could tell he was overdoing it. He had to keep up the speed because he thought he was faster than I was(possibly was?) he didn't want to pass me and then have me on his ass. We went into turn 2 and he went really deep. Well 2/3's of the way into turn 2(high speed long decreasing radius turn) he literally lost confidence in the turn, ran wide, and went right off the track at prob 80-90mph. He went into the turn faster than he was comfortable with because he felt pressured to keep up the speed. THat was his mistake, I could of made a mistake by trying to speed up to not let him pass me, then I would of been the one to probably go off. But on a bike its cool because you can pass people IN the turn all day long, its harder to do in a car, and some track organizers don't allow it.

[David Pozzi]

Good story.
You eventually learn where the line is, then when you pass someone approaching a turn for the first time, you wind up driving deep into the turn and your approach is now off-line because the car you are passing is on your "usual" line. It's hard to judge your speed entering this way and you can run off on corner exit. The effects of nearby cars on your concentration need to be considered in advance since they are pretty significant. Especially when you are new at it. I spent half a race in June at Sears Pt with a faster car behind me. I was just a bit slower in the turns but had more power than he did. If he could have gotten a fender up beside me, I would have let him go ahead but he couldn't do it, so I just watched him carefully in my mirrors. It's hard to focus on driving well when that happens.

Here's some open track car prep discussion from pro-touring.com. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8701

[fatlife]

Its gonna at least take you half the day just to learn to look through the turn properly. Always keep your eyes and head looking at the end of the turn, never in front of you. If you look in front of you on a high speed turn, chances are you will run straight off the road. This is a huge factor when you first start out, not only will you stay on track looking THROUGH the turn but it won't seem as fast.

Also when in traffic, dont fixate on cars in front of you. In genearl humans tend go where they look, so if you are looking at the car in front of you, instead of through/end of the turn, you will go whey they go. If they run off the the track, so will you. If they run a ****ty line, so will you. When in traffic and looking to pass or something, look at the open space not the car.

[race-rodz]

just gonna throw out my worthless opinion........ with all the $$$ tied up in your car, and having no seat time at a real racetrack.... i think that it would be a great idea to look into a few driving schools. while a 250hp mustang with sticky tires and good set-up might not sound like "fun" compared to your car.... you will be given a chance to learn the basics, from there you will know what to expect out of your own car....and what you need to do with your car in order to make it "work".

its good that you are here askin for opinions, and its good to see that your mentality has changed for the better somewhat in the last 8 pages, but i think you should post a question like this over at corner-carvers...... and let the education begin.

[Damn True]

just gonna throw out my worthless opinion........ with all the $$$ tied up in your car, and having no seat time at a real racetrack.... i think that it would be a great idea to look into a few driving schools. while a 250hp mustang with sticky tires and good set-up might not sound like "fun" compared to your car.... you will be given a chance to learn the basics, from there you will know what to expect out of your own car....and what you need to do with your car in order to make it "work".

its good that you are here askin for opinions, and its good to see that your mentality has changed for the better somewhat in the last 8 pages, but i think you should post a question like this over at corner-carvers...... and let the education begin.

In that same vein I suggest you take your car to an auto-x or two first.

[Blown353]

i think you should post a question like this over at corner-carvers...... and let the education begin.

Boy wouldn't that be a hoot. I'm playing that one out in my head. :D

[nitrorocket]

Hey, my post asked about good brakes going 150 mph +..... CORRECT! What is so bad about that question????????????? Show me a car on here that would not go 150 mph on R/A. That is my local track, and I need brakes thet will not fail or fade going those speeds. Everyone on here has HUGE brakes, and that is why I asked you guys! :yes:
I While I appreciate the pointers, for some reason some feel the need to tell me about everything else I will need or should'nt. I am a good driver, I like to go fast and push the limits, that's why I will be going to the track, to be able to go farther and get better. Some of you keep talking like I am going to go to the track and drive like some idiot, Or way to fast, that is pretty insulting! Just like everyone else, I am going to the track, get advise, and start taking laps untill I get better and faster like everyone else. ;)
Some of you kept on topic offering good advice and pointers, especially in the brake and suspension dept. Thanks! :D
I don't feel at this point I need to go to the track to see what the car needs. I have driven the car for 13 years and Pretty much no the weak points. Besides, with the Drag radials and the small front disc brakes, and pushing front end, I would have a few problems.


Right now, unless someone steps up with a better or different alternative, I am going with the AFX tall spindles, C5 calipers, and maybe the new Z06 rotors, I am going to buy a rotor to see if it will work, looks like it will. I just need to calculate an overall dimension from centerline to see if the calipers will not hit the rim of my wheel with the 14" rotors. I parked between a c5 and a c6 zo6 yesterday and it looks promising! A little more leverage will help, plus the new rotors look beefier then the c5 setup.

[fatlife]

You don't want the Z06 rotors, they are junk.

[nitrorocket]

??? Why! Why!! Why!!! I need to know why!!!!

[fatlife]

if you read whats in teh link that I provided on the first page, you would know. You seem to be too busy defending yourself instead of listening.

[fatlife]

I find this funny, on a differnet forum, I find you giving peope this advice, sounds just like what we are telling you, but for some reason you don't like hearing it.

Posted by nitrorocket on another board:
"
Just a question? What is the most powerful car you have driven or been in?? 1000 hp is NOT childs play. It may sound like a nice easy roung number, but that is serious power. I rarely ever use my power. On the street I only use about 700 hp of it tops! Even 700 hp is hard to control, I would sure hate to always have to worry about shifting not to mention that you will ALWAYS be spinning the tires and shifting in the middle of a controlled slide could be a little dangerous!! .......
I am not trying to shoot you down in any way, I am just offering the best advice I can give to make your life a little easier and cheaper."

But you do have a legitimate question, and IMO you have recieved a TON of good info on both your brake/suspension and some really good info on trackdays etc. Hey you must already know everything, I mean even if every single person posting on this thread says the same thing, hey who cares, thats not the info you asked for, right?

[fatlife]

oh and heres what my tire looked like after 3 trackdays and was toast; so be prepared to start spending money on tires if you want to go fast
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4301/p1010232zo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
:D :D

[68protouring454]

go c5 calipers with z-51 front rotors (13-3/8) do not use the zo6 14 inch rotors for one have fun making it work and two they weigh like 26 lbs or something

[fatlife]

go c5 calipers with z-51 front rotors (13-3/8) do not use the zo6 14 inch rotors for one have fun making it work and two they weigh like 26 lbs or something
probably won't fit with his 17" wheels, and plus the problem with the Z51 rotors is the same as the Z06 which is the fact you can only get 2 left hand side rotors. The right side is not going to cool very well due too the vents being faced backwards. Plus they are crossdrilled. THey should be good for a street car, but for a track where you see 150mph repeadetly I would stay away from them. Actually I would stay away from them for any track time. 6, 20 minute sessions in one day will toast an inadequate rotor if you are pushing it at all.

[nitrorocket]

What does a c5 rotor weight?? From what I have actually found, the new Zo6 brake problem seems to be the calipers??

[68protouring454]

i agree about the cross drilled but, but i highly doubt vettes are the only ones that use the same rotor left and right, lets see some proof that a non cross drilled rotor will not work well for a non race car doing some track days.
wheres carlc or the orange crush dude

[fatlife]

i agree about the cross drilled but, but i highly doubt vettes are the only ones that use the same rotor left and right, lets see some proof that a non cross drilled rotor will not work well for a non race car doing some track days.
wheres carlc or the orange crush dude
What are you talking about? Of course a non cross drilled rotor will work fine???? And neither of those guys are running 2 left hand side rotors. That is the prob, way worse than crossdrilling. If you look at some rotors, the vanes inbetween the pad surfaces are sometimes just straight, meaning that you can use them on either the left or the right. The don't cool as great as directional rotors, but they still work. Then look at some other rotors, such as C5's. They are directional, they have a left and a right hand side rotor. The vanes are directional on these, they curve backwards to hellp direct air inbetween the rotor to cool it down. Now for some reason GM decided to skimp and use 2 of the same side rotor. So now the right hand side rotor's vanes are facing foward, which is now competely opposite of what of the rotor is supposed to have. All of the vette guys complained about this.

The Z06 and the Z51 both have this. Its possible you might get by with it, but why? just to get an extra .5" i diameter?? Not worth it IMO, especially for a track like RA where you will be repeatedly braking at 150mph. Stupidist thing GM did to cut costs

[fatlife]

Just go with the AFX spindle and some C5 brakes, non crossdrilled, and some good pads. You won't have much at all in the front brakes, and they should be good to go. IF later down the road you feel you need better brakes and such, you can always replace them with a bolt in C5 aftermarket kit from wilwood or one of the other big ones. with the 17" centerlines your are limited, and you also don't have any prior track time. It hink this is the best decision. Won't cost too much and will be easy to change down the road when you need too. :cool:

[68protouring454]

i am glad some wanna be bike rider is telling all of us how and what we need to do to road race, i for one do not really know, and i doubt there are many of us here that have done this, maybe one or two, so who here HAS DRIVEN 130 PLUS MPH ON A ROAD COURSE MULTIPLE TIMES??
none of this directional , non directional ****, we are not engineers and its pretty easy to over engineer EVERYTHING in these pro touring cars, BECAUSE WE SAW IT ONTHE INTERNET"
nitro, run c4-c5-c6 and make sure evrything is safe, if you have heat issues of cracking issues fix it then, enough of this debate about what brakes,
maybe our new resident HERO BIKE RACER will design and build a PERFECT rotor with the PERFECT SIZE AND THICKNES.
HEY fat life, how many track days have you driven a car on??
i have never driven any road course, so i cannot really say, but i am sure nothing drastic will happen with stock vette brakes, maybe some warping, yes, maybe some small cracks around cross drilled holes, but these are things you check before the track day or just after.

[fatlife]

i i for one do not really know, and i doubt there are many of us here that have done this
Um....try speaking for yourself instead of "us"
BECAUSE WE SAW IT ONTHE INTERNET"
What!!! your kidding me!!................ :rolleyes:

i have never driven any road course, so i cannot really say,
Another fantastic suprise!!
but i am sure nothing drastic will happen with stock vette brakes,
Oh wow! I'm glad your so sure

Wow! what an informative post! thanks for all the great info you just spewed out! I helped you out and edited it for you :thumbsup:
(p.s. I'm truly sorry that the rotors you put on your car are inferior, but don't get mad at me about it :_paranoid )

BTW
:P :P

[68protouring454]

ok, HERO
what kind of brakes do you have on your car?
how may track days have you done in a car?
where have you read all this? cause i already know the answer to the track day question in a car.
so really by highlighting my reply, you put your self right there with me, as NEVER DOING IT!!!

[fatlife]

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/880/2205504trollspraygj6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[nitrorocket]

:_paranoid
Anyone know the difference between 2005 Z06 and standard front calipers ???

[68protouring454]

nitro the c5 caliper are the same just black or red depending whether its z06 or not.
now the c6 base calipers are the same as c5 calipers, then the c6 z-51 is the same caliper with bigger rotor, and then the c6 z06 is the six piston caliper with 14 inch rotor
ps. fatlife wannabe, why do you fail to answer my questions to you??

[fatlife]

:_paranoid
Anyone know the difference between 2005 Z06 and standard front calipers ???
This is a post that I had in the other thread that I linked too;

lso for summary;
F body LS1 brakes-= 2 piston sliding caliper, same as C5 but with no cooling fins built into caliper body, 12" rotor, 12" rear

C5 brakes= 2 piston sliding caliper with 12.8" directional rotor front
1 piston sliding caliper with 12" directional rotor rear

C5 Z06 identical to C5 but with red calipers

C6 brakes= same is C5

C6 brakes with optional Z51= same calipers as C5, differnet abutments(bracket) with a 13.4" front directional rotor, but same rotor left and right meaning that one side will be backwards, meaning that it will not cool the same as the other side. They are crossdrilled also.
Rear is same caliper as C5 but with differnet abutment, 13" directioal but same as the front 2 of the same side rotor, same cooling problems.

C6 Zo6= 6 Piston monoblock individual brake padlets calipers, 14" crossdrilled directional rotor, same rotor left and right meaning one side will be backwards, will not cool the same left and right.
Rear is a 4 piston monoblock individual brake padlets caliper, 13.5" crossdrilled rotor same directional problem as front

[fatlife]

ps. fatlife wannabe, why do you fail to answer my questions to you??

Because you think you are busting me out or something, and think you are so cool, but in reality you just look even more ignorant, and I don't really feel like participating in a who's who war with a nobody :P

Theres a lot of good info in this thread wheter you think I am qualified or not. Lets not lock this thread because you are offended that your brake rotors are not up to real track use

[nitrorocket]

If all of that is completely factual, that is great info, I never saw that post. :rolleyes:

[nitrorocket]

BACK TO BRAKES OR I AM GOING TO KNOCK SOME HEADS!! :mad:

[68protouring454]

think i am busting you out??
i just said he should go out make his car safe and drive it, change/upgrade things as he goes.
you bust me out saying i am unhappy about my front brakes.
i then ask you what you have for brakes, so i forgot it was a war.

:bow:

[fatlife]

should be, I just typed it. Not sure if the F body stuff is directional, and also I think the F body rotor is like 12.3" or something. pretty sure the rest is all %100 correct

[nitrorocket]

So the pistons on the c5 and Z28 front calipers are the same size??? I don't car about the Z rotors, they are too small! :D

[fatlife]

Yes, the same size, the only differnece I am aware of, is that the abutment is different to mount the caliper over a smaller rotor, and the caliper doesn't have the cooling fins built into the top of the caliper.

[68protouring454]

fat life, do you work for ap racing? stoptech?? precision brakes??
wow with all this techincal help its amazing, to think someone from a big brake company is here giving us all this great info and feedback, thanks :thumbsup:

[nitrorocket]

I wonder how much the fins really help disipitate heat?? By abundment, do you mean the caliper bracket the caliper bolts too????

[nitrorocket]

68... We are grown men and are easily mis understood and do not always come off as we actually are through typing. Lets give evryone on here the benifit of the doubt, and start over. I for one knw a ton on drag racing setup and motor building along with turbo and tuning tech, you have your area of knowledge that you a best in, and Fat, seems to have done his research on brakes pretty well.

Sound good?? :D :D :D

[fatlife]

yes, that the abutment, the caliper assembly is a 2 piece assembly. If you look at my brakes on my site, you can see it is the shiny black piece. Not sure about the fins doing much, but it gives the caliper more surface area which allows the heat to disperse more. You can come across C5 calipers so easily and cheaply, I dont see the reason to go with the F body ones, unless you they were free. If you shop wisely you can get C5 rotors at napa for I think like $30 each, then all you need is the calipers; ebay prob like $100 for the pair used, then all you need is good pads; $150. This will get you in the door, and you won't have much of an investment. Then down the road you can spend some real coin on a real set of brakes, but you will probably want some better wheels/tires then also, and you can get a bigger rotor etc at the same time. Whether on a bike or car, I know that on my first time on the track, I barely even used the brake!! :wow: Just learning what turn is coming next, and how to get setup for it, takes enough of your attention away. But RA looks pretty easy to remember, and you will be needing some good stopping power on that straight away!! Just get some good pads, that will be the key factor, you might go to a vette site and go to the trackday section and see what people are using;
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23

[fatlife]

while doing some research for you on the vette board I came across this post, which has some info about the z51 rotors which is similar to what I said about the Z51 rotors;

"I have 8 track days on my Toyo and they still have half their tread left.
With the PFC pads ($400 set F+R) since they are so aggressive you will go through solid non drilled front rotors in 6-16 track days. Original equipment rotors for the Z51 are around $100-115 ea. Most track dogs convert down in rotor size to the base non drilled 12.8" instead of the 13.4" drilled rotor. You can buy napa "base 12.8" rotors for about $25 ea. The brakes on all C6 are virtually the same(Z51 has smaller pistons on the rear but uses the same caliper) only the Z06 being vastly different."

and I ran across this also;
"The directional cooling vanes on one side of the Z51 are pointing in the wrong direction, so they are trying to scoop air in while the spinning rotor is trying to throw it out. Someone recently reported an increase on the right side by 30F when racing on the track."

this is all just internet gossip but sounds believable to me.
I'll see what I can find about the pads, I believe carbotech makes a good C5 pad. Heard nothing but good things. Not sure if Ferrodo makes car brakes, but they are really Killer pads

Heres a good thread about brake pads, but rememer you don't have ABS, you have way more power, and way heavier, but still should be some good reading for you, if you get that AFX spindle, which only takes corvette brakes, so it should be good to know whats out there;
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1482401&highlight=z51+rotor

and Nitro, what you said is right on, I am no expert, and am no guru either, but I have done a bunch of research, and am just trying to relay the info I have learned, not claiming I made any of it up, or am some expert. I don't think there is anything wrong with that

[68protouring454]

ok, so lets find out what pads are best for track use and street combo, with the c5 rotors, both 12.8 and 13.4

[fatlife]

Yes its another corvette post, but the info is all the same, this is some good reading and basially is saying the same thing we have been saying here;
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=673766

Great read for a first time track goer even if it is buy a bunch of "vette" guys :_paranoid

[fatlife]

ok, so lets find out what pads are best for track use and street combo, with the c5 rotors, both 12.8 and 13.4
Carbotech
Wilwood
Hawk
porterfield
pic your favorite brand

and when it comes to brake pads for a 4000ilb car for the track, there is no street/track pad. You need a dedicated race pad for the track, unless you are passing vettes in a primer camaro :rofl:

BUT if you were just going out once in a blue moon to just enjoy yourself and weren't really really pushing it, something like a Hawk HPS pad would work good. You just have to really define what you mean by track, and just how good you want the brakes to work. You can always make a compromise and use a street pad like the Hawk HPS but if you want consistenly good brakes you need to step up to a race pad, which is going to dust A LOT and also take awhilie to warm up. But once you get out on the track a few times, and start picking up speed, you will realize that the whole street/track thing is silly, you need race stuff if you want to go fast and reliably. Now if you just want to go once or twice just to say you did it and have fun, you can make a lot of compromises.

[nitrorocket]

I run performance friction race pads now. They actually work good on the street, they do work a little better when warmed up, but I end up overheatin the rotors and calipers and they work like crap if I pound on them too long. For a dual purpose car, I have found best results just using the race stuff, it works best on the track, and better then average on the street. :D

[fatlife]

yes, there is always an execption to the rule, and if your willing to live with compromises you can make a lot of stuff work. I've personally never ran a race pad on the street, only heard that they don't work very well initially.

[nitrorocket]

They don't wok as good as they can initially, but I would say they would still work better then the average car if you have the larger rotor and good caliper.(which I dont have yet)

Also, Autozone has the front C5 rotors for $55 each and PFC Z rated pads for $105. Those are the pads I run now, any good compared to other race pads??

I have to call the dealer tomorrow and see what my cost is on rotors.

[fatlife]

i would go with differnet pads, those might be good, but I've never heard of anyone using them before, some wilwood H pads would be damn good. also apparantly Napa has the rotors for $25, have autozone match the price
EDIT: you know, if you have already used these pads and like them go for it. You will have to replace them periodically anyway, so you will have a lot more chances to try out different brands. Do some research and then choose from there. I personally would be going with ferrodo (sp?) or Carbotech

[nitrorocket]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1476392&highlight=rotors+used


Interesting thread I found on the new 14" rotors, great pic of the rotors hot also!

[fatlife]

glad you found some info, looks like a lot of people are blaming it on the 2 sided rotor deal. I believe it. I saw rotors bright red like that one time at Infineon raceway. I went on a ride along in a new Dodge Intrepid....yes an intrepid. I thought it was going to be a joke, but me and 3 other people piled into the car. The driver was a professional instructor and man was I suprised. He went into the turns plowing that pig so hard he was in a controlled understeer the entire turn. I think we all looked a little white in the face when we got out! I looked at the rotors on the car and they were glowing bright red just like the pic in that link. They will also tell you at the track to not leave your ebrake on when you park the car after some laps, as the pad will melt onto the rotor!

[Blown353]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1476392&highlight=rotors+used

Interesting thread I found on the new 14" rotors, great pic of the rotors hot also!

Those rotor pics looke like nothing out of the ordinary for an x-drilled rotor that has seen a couple track sessions.

Solid rotors heat check & crack too, but they typically propagate more slowly.

As was stated in that CF thread, there is no one "magic" pad that works great on the street and track. We're talking two wildly different temperature ranges, hence why we have street compounds and race compounds. Using either for the wrong application has drawbacks. Street pads will typically cook and fade away at the track as they were meant to work best with moderate temps encountered in daily driving, and race pads on the street never get up to the intended temp level which can have many effects including reduced coefficent of friction and rapidly accelerated rotor wear.

Lots of good pads to choose from... Carbotech, Hawk, Porterfield, Ferrodo, etc. All offer both street and track compounds.

[fatlife]

Those rotor pics looke like nothing out of the ordinary for an x-drilled rotor that has seen a couple track sessions.


I agree with everything you just said, but I'm not sure if I just didn't catch it, but I'm wondeirng if both of his rotors did the exact same thing? Which would go back to the improper cooling. Either way all rotors no matter what they are made of don't last forever at track temps, and your right I have seen many other rotors look just like this. Seen a few pics of porsche rotors all cracked back at PT.com

And this isn't directed at you, but is just a general statement. I have found that a lot of people who haven't done a lot of "racing' or better yet aggresive track driving want to put a lot of stuff on their car that they think will work good for street and track. Nothing wrong with this at all. But what they don't realize is, if they are the type to really get into the track driving (its just too much for some people) they realize they want to go faster and faster, basically they get bitten by teh speed bug. We've all heard of it and it does happen. What happens is they start picking up speed, and they don't care anymore about how stuff looks as much and how cool it seems. All you want is parts that work better to make you faster and have more fun and move your skill level up. This is when you realize that if you want to go fast at the track you need dedicated track parts.IMO the only way to have your pudding and eat it too, is to have either a very high tolerance to irrational parts/harsh ride/needing warm up or have different sets of parts for the track, like spare wheels/brakes.

Now this isn't saying you can't go to the track without race parts, and a car can perform great without them, but in a car its about the repeated exposure to heat and abuse over and over that will really kill anything inadequate. This is why I was telling you (nitrorocket) to start cheaply/less dramatic with the parts, and then upgrade. To see if you get bit or not. IF you do then start getting parts that will help you raise your skill level. and keep the parts that you get now to put back on for street duty.

BUT anyway it seems as if you have the ball rolling, and it looks like you have a great start, so I'll try and stop preaching to you :) let us know what you do.

[nitrorocket]

I am a speed bug! :D

Many years ago I thought one could have the best of both world, but I realized you must pretty much go all out first off or it cost twice as much in the long run. Most people are into the flash, I like everyone else, likes there car to look good, but function must come first.

I have learned alot from this thread in the brake dept. :D