Thank you Greg Weld ! Venting time.

[DOOM]

I'm just putting this out there to vent because I can't understand what goes on in peoples business minds. Let me explain. After reading and talking to Greg about what has happen to him . I now sit in front of my attorney wondering how in the heck has it come to this . I now have a similar situation that Greg has . So the short version goes like this . My car has been a complete disappointment since being ''DONE'' . I plan to list the whole order of events and problems on my thread soon. What I can't understand is how do you take a friggen awesome customer, a guy who personally pays every invoice on time in person within days of receiving it . Never questioning a bill . Never questioning what your doing and why . Giving you complete artistic reign for what ever you want to do to your automobile. Never making you change something because you don't like it .No budget just make sure everything is the best .. I have a very small collision shop that I own . I've been in business 28 years . I do the very best to make sure our repairs get done right but there's times this doesn't always happen . But when the sh!t hits the fan and a customer comes back with a problem I personally make sure the problem is corrected, fixing the issue and standing behind it . I never question a customer about something that we repaired if it failed. We repaired it in the first place and its not fixed so why would I even question it!!!!!! IT'S CALLED CUSTOMER SERVICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it works great!!!! So back to my issue I sent my car back my builder last December with a list of things to be ''FIXED'' . Picked up my car May this year . We went for a ride to check out one of my issues a brake problem and put the car right in the trailer. As the next couple months went by I'm realizing a lot of the issues were not fixed properly so me being who I am I just let it go . That's until last week my 1000 mile engine that he had built by is engine builder started to use 3 quarts of oil in 400 miles . So more money to fix something that has been fixed. Sent a text to my builder telling him what happen and while I was at it letting him know that all but two things that I sent the car for to get repaired are still not right. So my answer from my builder is ''Everything was
fixed you signed a paper saying so !!!! '' So that's how you treat your customer that has been nothing but good to you. I'm floored at that response . After everything that has happen with this car since I've had it. Knowing all the BS I've been through with this car . That's what I get for a answer. So I'm taking a page out of Greg's book and speaking up . Being the nice cool guy doesn't work you just get sh!t on over and over again. Never in a million years did I think it would ever come to this .

[BigBronco]

Sorry to hear. I hope you can get some progress. It is going to be very tough. :(

[OLDFLM]

Why does this crap keep happening to the "Goodfellas?" :EmoteClueless:

You and Greg are both amazing people and great car guys who have given far more than your share to this community!

I hate to see this kindof crap happening to you too Mario!

[Ketzer]

Seems like there are more shops doing bad work than good...?

I'm guessing you've decided not to "out" the shop the way GW did?


Jeff-

[GregWeld]

People suck....


People that create problems and don’t know how to fix em suck worse.


People that choose their bottom line over quality customer service. They don’t have to worry about their bottom line for very long. Because the list of customers is going to dry up pronto.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Panteracer]

Not sure where quality and service have gone over the years
We are a small contractor celebrating 50 years in business
There are many times someone wants something done below
standards and I tell them we are going to do it right or not at all
I often tell my guys to take care of it so it is done right so the
issue goes away

Recently I and others have had some car things done or parts
bought that are just junk or done wrong... we recently outed
a so called Cleveland engine builder for his bad work practices
He used to be good but now it does not seem to matter

Been learning how to do more things myself because I am afraid
to have the so called experts do it

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of vendors here that I can
see do it right but why can they all be that way

Bob

[Vegas69]

Fire the attorney and find someone that has the skills to fix it. These cars are a real trick to get right and your builder must be over his head. You have to be good at everything to build these right and work out the wrinkles and most aren't capable. That's my perspective after seeing all the cluster **** stories around here.

Good luck!

[DOOM]

Fire the attorney and find someone that has the skills to fix it. These cars are a real trick to get right and your builder must be over his head. You have to be good at everything to build these right and work out the wrinkles and most aren't capable. That's my perspective after seeing all the cluster **** stories around here.

Good luck!

I can't fire him Todd he's my friend and neighbor ! Plus I take care of his firm it cost me nothing. He won't be touching the car anymore that's for sure . It will go to the proper people to get these problems taken care of and they won't be at my expense !.

[Vegas69]

I hope it all works out for you. These cars aren't worth the trouble.

[fleetus macmullitz]

I’m very sorry to hear that Mario...

[214Chevy]

This stuff kills me. Shops, business, people, etc are very quick and ever so happy to take your money. They talk a good game and are the most reassuring service provider in the whole wide world. Ohh, but no!! Once they've gotten your money and provide the service and it isn't right, they act as if you're a bother to them, a hassle and it's getting on their nerves to fix their f#@k up. Furthermore, it pains me when they start blaming you like, "You must've done this or that!" No idiot!! I paid you several thousands of dollars and it isn't right!! One company I love that has great customer service is Jegs. Not an engine builder, but they sell parts for our hobby and they're great. At least in my experience. Matt's Classic Bowtie's is another. These people still know the values of a customer.

[J-440]

Dang, sorry to hear about these issues. I see a lot of high dollar builds here and the skills needed to make your dreams happen and you pay someone to do it right. When stuff breaks, you expect the builder to fix the problems no questions asked.
Oh and I personally want to thank Greg for helping me out with my (easy for him) fixes. I'm new at all this and the wealth of info on this board is appreciated. :thumbsup:

[glassman]

Hey Mario,

A-he's probably burnt out
B-can't fix some issues, doesn't want to deal with it rather than learning, which takes time, but can't give more time due to being burnt out.
C-you always hurt the ones you love

BUT,
There are NO excuses for the lack of customer service(specially for a great customer). I do 4,000 something invoices a year, some as small as 20$ and into 6 figures.
Wish i could get 1/2 my customers to pay on time, but noooo, i have to pay somebody to chase the money which should have been done when the job was done. this ain't Macy's
We have to treat ALL problems the same. The customer is our boss, just the way it is....
I just wish i was smart enough to see the bad ones before i do business with them in the first place.

Sux. Hope it works out for y'all

[OLDFLM]

Good guys with good intentions don't always make good car builders.

As someone on this site once said:

"A complete build can either make you famous or infamous..."

[Che70velle]

Even if I had Lillards money, I wouldn’t commission a shop to build me anything. I trust about 5 people in this whole world, and only one of them likes cars. Too many stories like this. Gives our hobby a bad name, and just makes me sick to my stomach.

[dhutton]

There is no guarantee that a talented builder is a talented businessman. Probably the opposite in most cases. Most builders don’t set aside any reserves to cover warranty work. They have to keep billing to cover their overhead etc and as such aren’t willing or able to do warranty work that generates zero cash flow. Of course that is small consolation to the dissatisfied customer who spent six figures and didn’t get what he expected.

Don

[Che70velle]

There was is no guarantee that a talented builder is a talented businessman. Probably the opposite in most cases. Most builders don’t set aside any reserves to cover warranty work. They have to keep billing to cover their overhead etc and as such aren’t willing or able to do warranty work that generates zero cash flow. Of course that is small consolation to the dissatisfied customer who spent six figures and didn’t get what he expected.

Don

Pretty much sums it up right here...

[DOOM]

There is no guarantee that a talented builder is a talented businessman. Probably the opposite in most cases. Most builders don’t set aside any reserves to cover warranty work. They have to keep billing to cover their overhead etc and as such aren’t willing or able to do warranty work that generates zero cash flow. Of course that is small consolation to the dissatisfied customer who spent six figures and didn’t get what he expected.

Don

Don I couldn't of said it better myself.

[DOOM]

Thanx guys I'm still processing this whole thing . Just having a hard time with the whole deal. But I'm not going to sit back that's for sure.

[214Chevy]

There's a very well know builder that's a sponsor on here that I've heard about an issue with from a member on another forum I belong to. In short the builder built a frame for a customer. The customer sat on the frame for about a year and his project went south, so he had to sell it. The frame was never installed, modified in anyway or painted/powder coated, etc. the new buyer then tries to put the chassis under the car and the tolerances are off in certain areas by about .25"-.5" in those places. New buyer calls up builder and builder is basically gives him the, "What do you want me to do about it...!!" type of attitude. Although not the original buyer, I still think it is a bunch of crap to not honor your work after selling a $20k chassis. The new buyer had to do lots more work to get it to fit. I read his posts and of course I had to know which builder it was...it floored me when he told me. I was shocked. He even sent me pics. It's not so much the fact that the spec's were off...i get it, it happens. But, the refusal to fix it was the wrong in my eyes. The new buyer had the original receipt, all paperwork and everything and said builder wasn't trying to hear it.

[dhutton]

There's a very well know builder that's a sponsor on here that I've heard about an issue with from a member on another forum I belong to. In short the builder built a frame for a customer. The customer sat on the frame for about a year and his project went south, so he had to sell it. The frame was never installed, modified in anyway or painted/powder coated, etc. the new buyer then tries to put the chassis under the car and the tolerances are off in certain areas by about .25"-.5" in those places. New buyer calls up builder and builder is basically gives him the, "What do you want me to do about it...!!" type of attitude. Although not the original buyer, I still think it is a bunch of crap to not honor your work after selling a $20k chassis. The new buyer had to do lots more work to get it to fit. I read his posts and of course I had to know which builder it was...it floored me when he told me. I was shocked. He even sent me pics. It's not so much the fact that the spec's were off...i get it, it happens. But, the refusal to fix it was the wrong in my eyes. The new buyer had the original receipt, all paperwork and everything and said builder wasn't trying to hear it.

Trying to get warranty coverage on a second hand anything is a pipe dream imho. That is the chance you take buying used parts at a discount. And yes, it was a used part imho....

Don

[DOOM]

There's a very well know builder that's a sponsor on here that I've heard about an issue with from a member on another forum I belong to. In short the builder built a frame for a customer. The customer sat on the frame for about a year and his project went south, so he had to sell it. The frame was never installed, modified in anyway or painted/powder coated, etc. the new buyer then tries to put the chassis under the car and the tolerances are off in certain areas by about .25"-.5" in those places. New buyer calls up builder and builder is basically gives him the, "What do you want me to do about it...!!" type of attitude. Although not the original buyer, I still think it is a bunch of crap to not honor your work after selling a $20k chassis. The new buyer had to do lots more work to get it to fit. I read his posts and of course I had to know which builder it was...it floored me when he told me. I was shocked. He even sent me pics. It's not so much the fact that the spec's were off...i get it, it happens. But, the refusal to fix it was the wrong in my eyes. The new buyer had the original receipt, all paperwork and everything and said builder wasn't trying to hear it.
None of that surprises me Marcus. Just venting my frustration . I really don't want to turn this into a bash fest it's just not worth it .

[Vegas69]

I can understand the vendor's stance as well. How does he know if the frame was compromised in some way. Same with an engine and almost everything else on a car. It could've been abused, started with no oil, bent, etc..

[BMR Sales]

been my personal opinion that 2nd Hand parts are Used and therefore no warranty should be expected.

[214Chevy]

I thought about the 2nd hand stuff too...

[Blake Foster]

been my personal opinion that 2nd Hand parts are Used and therefore no warranty should be expected.

I would agree to some extent. we have had customers buy product from Craigslist or where ever and be missing hardware or have questions we will gladly help them out. back in the day when before purchased Speedtech there were a bunch of control arm that got manufactured incorrectly and we replaced those damn things for 5 years!! as they continued to trickle in i think we replaced 30 sets of control arms we didn't even make them! WE ARE DONE NOW!! lol If the parts are "second hand" but still in the box say we would not do a return of the item, but would help out if need be. The frame thing...... that is a little tougher call but i think at the very least one would want to try and provide a solution?? either way it still has your name on it

[214Chevy]

I would agree to some extent. we have had customers buy product from Craigslist or where ever and be missing hardware or have questions we will gladly help them out. back in the day when before purchased Speedtech there were a bunch of control arm that got manufactured incorrectly and we replaced those damn things for 5 years!! as they continued to trickle in i think we replaced 30 sets of control arms we didn't even make them! WE ARE DONE NOW!! lol If the parts are "second hand" but still in the box say we would not do a return of the item, but would help out if need be. The frame thing...... that is a little tougher call but i think at the very least one would want to try and provide a solution?? either way it still has your name on it

Well spoken from someone who provides exceptional customer experience. That's all I was trying to say or get at. At least TRY and provide some sort of solution or amicable agreement. Just don't be like beat it...scram. That's my opinion.

[Stuart Adams]

Ego gets in the way of most these situations. Builder thinks he can do it because his ego sais yes. Instead of providing a proper assessment of what can be done and costs involved, it gets short sided to get the gig, and then gets in a hornets nest when reality shows up. 45 shirt and 1 hat syndrome. IMO.

I'm hoping you get things resolved.

[Vegas69]

Ego gets in the way of most these situations. Builder thinks he can do it because his ego sais yes. Instead of providing a proper assessment of what can be done and costs involved, it gets short sided to get the gig, and then gets in a hornets nest when reality shows up. 45 shirt and 1 hat syndrome. IMO.

I'm hoping you get things resolved.

Yep, and many times they know the trap they are setting, but aren't forthright as they feel the job may never procure. Construction is no different.

[snappytravis]

Yep, and many times they know the trap they are setting, but aren't forthright as they feel the job may never procure. Construction is no different.
It's straight up lying the way is see it, I don't own a shop, have worked in one and managed one, If I can't do something I either say I can't fkn do it! or find advice like the guys on here that may be able to. What is up with all the half ass shops, How the hell can they charge for **** that isn't fixed,, I am amazed.

[Vegas69]

I'm with ya, but you take it as it is, not how you wish it to be.

When I built mine, I ended up tweaking or fixing the work of many. I can't imagine how the build would've went if I didn't have the skills to do it myself. The truth of the matter is the sorting out process is a major chunk of a sorted build that you can enjoy. Shops should really build in 50 hours to use and sort the car. It's a catalog of bastard parts in many cases that don't tango so nice.

[Ketzer]

Me, as a consumer would not expect any sort of warranty on something I bought second hand. Even if it was "new" still...

Case in point, I bought a bunch of AirRide stuff from a fellow member. All new never used. He had it for years and then I've had it for years, you know how projects go... once I got everything installed and running I ran into a minor glitch. I needed a way to eliminate the brain as the culprit. I called up RideTech and asked George if there was any way they could run diagnostics on the ECU. He said "No problem..." and gave me a RA#. I made it 100% clear the parts were new but second hand. Told him I would gladly pay diag fees and shipping....
(There was nothing wrong with the ECU and I happily paid shipping, no other charges)


Jeff-

[BMR Sales]

I would agree to some extent. we have had customers buy product from Craigslist or where ever and be missing hardware or have questions we will gladly help them out. back in the day when before purchased Speedtech there were a bunch of control arm that got manufactured incorrectly and we replaced those damn things for 5 years!! as they continued to trickle in i think we replaced 30 sets of control arms we didn't even make them! WE ARE DONE NOW!! lol If the parts are "second hand" but still in the box say we would not do a return of the item, but would help out if need be. The frame thing...... that is a little tougher call but i think at the very least one would want to try and provide a solution?? either way it still has your name on it

I agree and I try my best @ BMR with Old Stuff, but what I said before was a personal reply saying that there should be no expectation of a Warranty

[SSLance]

Construction is no different.

My thoughts on this exactly... We have neighbors here that are at complete odds with the home builder because things didn't work out exactly as they had "envisioned" with their new house. They are very much at fault for not only how they made changes in the original plans, but also how they handled the issues after the fact with the builder. They currently hate their new house because of all of the issues they've had to deal with. We are perfectly happy with how ours turned out...the issues have been almost non-existent. Same exact builder...




When I built mine, I ended up tweaking or fixing the work of many. I can't imagine how the build would've went if I didn't have the skills to do it myself. The truth of the matter is the sorting out process is a major chunk of a sorted build that you can enjoy. Shops should really build in 50 hours to use and sort the car. It's a catalog of bastard parts in many cases that don't tango so nice.


It falls into the "unrealistic expectations" folder if you ask me... Someone with a vested interested in making sure that everything plays nice with one another needs to be the one tweaking and tuning once the build is finished. They are never "finished" until they do the things they were designed and built to do with no issues...and there are ALWAYS issues...

[Che70velle]

Me, as a consumer would not expect any sort of warranty on something I bought second hand. Even if it was "new" still...

Case in point, I bought a bunch of AirRide stuff from a fellow member. All new never used. He had it for years and then I've had it for years, you know how projects go... once I got everything installed and running I ran into a minor glitch. I needed a way to eliminate the brain as the culprit. I called up RideTech and asked George if there was any way they could run diagnostics on the ECU. He said "No problem..." and gave me a RA#. I made it 100% clear the parts were new but second hand. Told him I would gladly pay diag fees and shipping....
(There was nothing wrong with the ECU and I happily paid shipping, no other charges)


Jeff-

I can relate to this. I bought my Mast electronics second hand, but brand new in the box, never opened. Guy didn’t want it with the Mast crate engine he bought. Well...I’ve had issues with the electronics from day one. I have mailed the ECM back to Mast twice now (just got it back last week actually), and Damon has spent a lot of time working on it. He had built me 2 different tunes from scratch, which takes a lot of time. He had to flow my current injectors in order to get the fueling right on my current tune, which takes a lot of time...and he might just be the busiest guy in the business. I’ve offered twice now to send money and he won’t have it. They stand behind their products, irregardless of who bought it. It has their name on it, and reputation is everything in this business. It’s still not right, and we agreed that I’d send it back this winter, when I can’t drive the car.

Marcus, I think I know what chassis your referring to. Guy had to cut it all up to make it work? I was shocked as well to hear the story.

[214Chevy]

Marcus, I think I know what chassis your referring to. Guy had to cut it all up to make it work? I was shocked as well to hear the story.

Yep, that's him Scott. Are you a member on Chevelles.com?

[Che70velle]

Yep, that's him Scott. Are you a member on Chevelles.com?

I am not. I don’t even remember where I read about it. It was a recent read for me, and I thought of you bro.

[Blake Foster]

i agree and i try my best @ bmr with old stuff, but what i said before was a personal reply saying that there should be no expectation of a warranty

agree 100%

[OLDFLM]

Someone on here once said:

"What do you want for free (or at a discount)? Your money back?"

[GregWeld]

I'm beginning to wonder - after 3 pro built cars and one amateurish built disaster..... how many guys own super expensive pro built cars that are disasters and they just don't have the balls to say so.

[Tom.A]

I'm with ya, but you take it as it is, not how you wish it to be.

When I built mine, I ended up tweaking or fixing the work of many. I can't imagine how the build would've went if I didn't have the skills to do it myself. The truth of the matter is the sorting out process is a major chunk of a sorted build that you can enjoy. Shops should really build in 50 hours to use and sort the car. It's a catalog of bastard parts in many cases that don't tango so nice.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe most builds have their own dirty little secrets that most of us never hear about(This is good Greg and Mario are letting folks know). It creates unrealistic expectations for guys having builds done. Many will likely end with 100K-400K spent and several years waiting for a POS that looks like a 8th grade art project under the skirt and pukes oil all the time. It seems many big dollar high profile builds spend at least a year on a show circuit which allows time to iron out bugs but even those will require wrenching and have an ugly underbelly too. My two favorite car builders are DSE and Roadster Shop but in my opinion they can't build the reliability that the General can because they spend millions developing components. Old cars with new parts still means working on them.

[dhutton]

Been doing a little navel gazing on this subject. When someone has a one off custom car built what they get is in fact the first prototype of that car. In the real world of engineering there is generally several prototype builds with each one learning from the previous build. Each build round is extensively tested and improvements made before the next round. The prototype builds are followed by pilot runs which are followed by preproduction runs. Each step continues to work out the kinks. Many units are built before the first customer build.

I guess what I am trying to say is the chances of getting a perfect custom car are relatively small. The more extreme and custom the build the smaller the chance. I think this is why the builder and customer need to agree to what extent the builder will go to sort the car and for how long he will warranty his build. The estimated cost of warranty work should be included in the labor rate of the shop.

Don

[Sheck44]

Mario, I am assuming for legal purposes your not outing this shop ?

These people need to be put out there on the stand for all to see and be judged by their reputation ... Its this simple ... Do sh!% work then you deserve to be recognized as such and your business should suffer for it. I own my own business and GUARANTEE the best service in my industry or I tell my perspective clients to FIRE us ... I've lost 1 client in 9 years.

Whats going on in this industry is beyond comprehension and something needs to be done.

Don ... I totally agree with your statement BUT there are proper ways to handle a companies responses to clients. I believe as someone had mentioned, shops unlike the Roadster shop and DSE can get in over their head quickly both technically and financially and the result is a bad situation for both the shop and the client. Maybe these shops shouldn't take on more than they can chew .... Even here in Toronto Ive seen more then 90% of all high end builds go completely sideways and its unacceptable

Cheers
Steve

[214Chevy]

I'm beginning to wonder - after 3 pro built cars and one amateurish built disaster..... how many guys own super expensive pro built cars that are disasters and they just don't have the balls to say so.

Greg, I would be inclined to think far more than we'd imagine.

[Ketzer]

Greg, I would be inclined to think far more than we'd imagine.

Reminds me of the proverbial "I aint see nuthin..." but everyone is screaming for change. Maybe I am short sighted or temperamental, fair enough. Everyone has to decide their own exposure... if someone screws me, I will not go quietly.


Jeff-

[Blake Foster]

It seems many big dollar high profile builds spend at least a year on a show circuit which allows time to iron out bugs but even those will require wrenching and have an ugly underbelly too. My two favorite car builders are DSE and Roadster Shop but in my opinion they can't build the reliability that the General can because they spend millions developing components. Old cars with new parts still means working on them.

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written :D

[DOOM]

I'm beginning to wonder - after 3 pro built cars and one amateurish built disaster..... how many guys own super expensive pro built cars that are disasters and they just don't have the balls to say so.
I think you know the answer to that Greg.
Been doing a little navel gazing on this subject. When someone has a one off custom car built what they get is in fact the first prototype of that car. In the real world of engineering there is generally several prototype builds with each one learning from the previous build. Each build round is extensively tested and improvements made before the next round. The prototype builds are followed by pilot runs which are followed by preproduction runs. Each step continues to work out the kinks. Many units are built before the first customer build.

I guess what I am trying to say is the chances of getting a perfect custom car are relatively small. The more extreme and custom the build the smaller the chance. I think this is why the builder and customer need to agree to what extent the builder will go to sort the car and for how long he will warranty his build. The estimated cost of warranty work should be included in the labor rate of the shop.

Don
Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.
Mario, I am assuming for legal purposes your not outing this shop ?

These people need to be put out there on the stand for all to see and be judged by their reputation ... Its this simple ... Do sh!% work then you deserve to be recognized as such and your business should suffer for it. I own my own business and GUARANTEE the best service in my industry or I tell my perspective clients to FIRE us ... I've lost 1 client in 9 years.

Whats going on in this industry is beyond comprehension and something needs to be done.

Don ... I totally agree with your statement BUT there are proper ways to handle a companies responses to clients. I believe as someone had mentioned, shops unlike the Roadster shop and DSE can get in over their head quickly both technically and financially and the result is a bad situation for both the shop and the client. Maybe these shops shouldn't take on more than they can chew .... Even here in Toronto Ive seen more then 90% of all high end builds go completely sideways and its unacceptable

Cheers
Steve
Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out :D

[FaBrycation]

Mario,

You're a good man. I am truly sorry to hear about this and I hope a resolution can be found without drastic measures.

as for everyone else...

I agree with what was stated above about custom cars being basically a prototype. Being a one-off car builder is subjecting yourself to the inevitable bugs and issues every time you fire the next one up. These bugs can be 1 or 100 depending on the details of the build and it is as frustrating for the builder as it is for the customer. The difference in good, mediocre, and bad builders during this time is being able to manage these issues when they arise by treating customers with the utmost respect and honesty by resolving the issues and not repeating past mistakes on the next builds.

Contrary to many of the comments in this thread- I believe the majority of builders are good people that can be trusted and are not crooks or shady people. While there is no justification for not making things right or not handling issues, I hate to see the posts in this thread that say they would or could never trust a "professional" shop to build their cars. This is simply not being fair to builders and guys who genuinely want to do the best they can for customers. I hope some of you won't not trust any builder just because a few people have had issues with some builders.

I hate to see good people involved in these situations. We as car guys are a dying breed and I would love to see us all working well together.

[BMR Sales]

I think you know the answer to that Greg.

Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.

Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out :D

Mario, I just went thru your Build and there is a bunch of awesomeness there. But there was also a bunch of "I'm done with this car" "I'm sueing". Obviously I'm not in your shoes and I've been raked over the coals on much smaller builds. Could it be that the attitude you got "Everything is Good, you signed for it" be part of you sueing people as part of the build? I friggen hate Attorneys (my Ex-Wife is one to start with, lol), so if someone starts I'm going to sue so & so, I tend to stay far away.

[ironworks]

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written :D


Or you mean like the Ron Francis black box relay panel that needs separate relays to operate properly. I still laugh at the owner of Ron Francis telling me I need to install relays to trigger his fancy relay panel that won a Super Duper SEMA award. Junk. Then why do I need your stupid relay box.

Or you mean the old ISIS system stuff? HAHAHA Its like using an original Nintendo 20 years later.

Or that hydraulic power assist brake booster thing. Not hydraboost I forget what the other was called.

Or that flush fit glass glass kit that just doesn't fit.

All those fancy products that everyone wants until its actually installed.


If you build any car that is cool now or trendy it has new parts that the builder and owner are the R&D test mule for said company whether you know it or not. I love it when I call about a malfunctioning part and the company leads you to believe your the only dude on the planet with one that is wrong and you tell em, " What are the odds that I have 3 of them from you that are junk and my buddy has 2 more?". My buddy said he talked you last week about his two junk units and told me to ask for you directly. ZING.



Later on we can get into the bad shops who should not be building entire cars.

[ironworks]

This hobby is filled with tons of egos of people who want to say they can do stuff as it makes them fell like Tim the Tool Man Taylor I guess. We all have talents and more then likely your not good at doing every single aspect of building a car. Now days it takes a team, Sheetmetal guys, Chassis guys, Mechanical guys and body guys and painters and interior guys. Its a tremendous team effort to build things that look good and perform well.

I have seen fabricators build a truck that they just changed the engine oil pan to clear the crossmember in their chassis and forgot the pick up tube seal so the engine had no oil pressure for a long long time as they couldn't figure it out. They are fabricators and not Mechanics. I have seen body and paint guys guys think they can do chassis work. And it drives like a tank. Body and paint guys who have zero clue what caster is. Or chassis fabricators who build a pan hard bar mount without reinforcement as they are not engineers but the welding on the frame is nice and tig welded. HAHA

I have heard awards of major Award winning cars that were built by super shops that caught fire in the customers drive way. Or major shops who send the customer on a cross country journey in a brand new car and tell them to watch the gauge as the fan doesn't always come on. REALLY??? 300 miles down the road it over heated at a truck stop in the middle of no where. It was the fan connector not being connected properly.

The true test of any builder is repeat customers. No one that is unhappy will build a 2nd or 3rd or 4th car if its junk. The other one is how many cars do you see for sale after its complete. Nobody divorces their wife because she is a great wife. I see cars that get passed around and sold at auction 2, 3 even 4 or 5 times at auction? Nobody sells a car because its so great and runs awesome all the time.

I say this all the time as I see guys who get taken all the time. This industry needs more education. Tech articles just sell parts and tell you how great junk parts are to intsall. Most guys have no clue how what they are looking at or how to REALLY build a car. I get a call every week from a guy wanting a camaro with All the cool parts for 20K. Painted and ready for SEMA and the track. Not gonna happen. Can't even buy the engine and trans you want for that bud.

And some cars just take more work to get right then others. You may be using the best builder ever and it might be struggle. The more custom the more chance for problems until that basic LS3 430 hp engine kicks you square in the nuts.

[DBasher]

Such a good discussion! Just like anything you have to qualify your builder and the builder should do the same with the customer. Neither side wants a headache and the realities and expectations should be layed out up front, time line, cost, warranty.
Because I don’t know, what exactly is discussed on a “pro” built car? Is a contract in place?

[dhutton]

I think you know the answer to that Greg.

Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.

Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out :D

Hi Mario. Just to be clear I don’t think you are at fault here. I’m just sharing some observations I made after many years of product development and design.

Don

[DOOM]

Reminds me of the proverbial "I aint see nuthin..." but everyone is screaming for change. Maybe I am short sighted or temperamental, fair enough. Everyone has to decide their own exposure... if someone screws me, I will not go quietly.


Jeff-
Jeff I'm the fairest guy you could ask for. And I have a few people on this board that can attest to that . I can tell you this I'm not a sue happy person . But when you get to a point that you know your being taken advantage of knowing you been REALLY REALLY cool through this prosses I feel you have to draw the line . Almost 30 years in business never once did I have to go after someone or someone come after me! I had someone tell me I wouldn't do this if I pay for my attorney . Ahh yes I would !
WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written :D
Blake I get everything your saying and fully understand trust me. And this is one thing of many with my car . So I'll start with the engine it had problems from day one. Not 5 months not 1 year but day one. Is it my builders fault ? Well I didn't send the motor to my builder to have it built it was his builder . But then you ask is it the builders fault ? Well after going to two different tuners ( that's a whole nother story) It took my nephews drag sled tuner to figure out in five minutes my car has been running at 44 degress advanced fixed timing!!!! Trying to start my car was like rolling the dice the starter kick back was so severe it bent the f@cking starter bolts ! So my question is would you deliver a car knowing from the start it wasn't right?
Mario,

You're a good man. I am truly sorry to hear about this and I hope a resolution can be found without drastic measures.

as for everyone else...

I agree with what was stated above about custom cars being basically a prototype. Being a one-off car builder is subjecting yourself to the inevitable bugs and issues every time you fire the next one up. These bugs can be 1 or 100 depending on the details of the build and it is as frustrating for the builder as it is for the customer. The difference in good, mediocre, and bad builders during this time is being able to manage these issues when they arise by treating customers with the utmost respect and honesty by resolving the issues and not repeating past mistakes on the next builds.

Contrary to many of the comments in this thread- I believe the majority of builders are good people that can be trusted and are not crooks or shady people. While there is no justification for not making things right or not handling issues, I hate to see the posts in this thread that say they would or could never trust a "professional" shop to build their cars. This is simply not being fair to builders and guys who genuinely want to do the best they can for customers. I hope some of you won't not trust any builder just because a few people have had issues with some builders.

I hate to see good people involved in these situations. We as car guys are a dying breed and I would love to see us all working well together.
Thank you Brycen !
Mario, I just went thru your Build and there is a bunch of awesomeness there. But there was also a bunch of "I'm done with this car" "I'm sueing". Obviously I'm not in your shoes and I've been raked over the coals on much smaller builds. Could it be that the attitude you got "Everything is Good, you signed for it" be part of you sueing people as part of the build? I friggen hate Attorneys (my Ex-Wife is one to start with, lol), so if someone starts I'm going to sue so & so, I tend to stay far away.
Well spend $45,000 dollars to get your interior done and have it a complete pile of sh!t and let me know what you would do !!IT'S ALL FIXED NOW!!
Such a good discussion! Just like anything you have to qualify your builder and the builder should do the same with the customer. Neither side wants a headache and the realities and expectations should be layed out up front, time line, cost, warranty.
Because I don’t know, what exactly is discussed on a “pro” built car? Is a contract in place?
Ohh I will do it totally different next time
Hi Mario. Just to be clear I don’t think you are at fault here. I’m just sharing some observations I made after many years of product development and design.

Don
Nope totally understand!

[Blake Foster]

Blake I get everything your saying and fully understand trust me. And this is one thing of many with my car . So I'll start with the engine it had problems from day one. Not 5 months not 1 year but day one. Is it my builders fault ? Well I didn't send the motor to my builder to have it built it was his builder . But then you ask is it the builders fault ? Well after going to two different tuners ( that's a whole nother story) It took my nephews drag sled tuner to figure out in five minutes my car has been running at 44 degress advanced fixed timing!!!! Trying to start my car was like rolling the dice the starter kick back was so severe it bent the f@cking starter bolts ! So my question is would you deliver a car knowing from the start it wasn't right?



Mario i was actually not implying anything in regard to your car, i was more just explaining it to others who might be reading the posts,
if your asking me if i would hand over the car not running properly the answer is NO. now we don't do tuning, i have people for that, that being said they are hard to find and hard to work with.

when people tell me they want there car to handle and drive like a new Corvette of BMW i tell them to just go buy one and save your money!
your car was obviously a HUGE DREAM that you decided to try and make come true as are MOST of these builds it is unfortunate that it has turned into a nightmare!!
hell i cant afford one of these car!! but if i could i LET ME TELL YOU!!!
hope it all works out and you get to enjoy it !!

[Ketzer]

Jeff I'm the fairest guy you could ask for. And I have a few people on this board that can attest to that . I can tell you this I'm not a sue happy person . But when you get to a point that you know your being taken advantage of knowing you been REALLY REALLY cool through this prosses I feel you have to draw the line . Almost 30 years in business never once did I have to go after someone or someone come after me! I had someone tell me I wouldn't do this if I pay for my attorney . Ahh yes I would !


Just so we're clear Mario, I'm 100% with you and GW. I am picky, I expect someone's best effort and quality. I tell them upfront before price is even talked about...

I am not understanding people who don't speak up when they don't get what they paid for...

Jeff-

[DOOM]

Mario i was actually not implying anything in regard to your car, i was more just explaining it to others who might be reading the posts,
if your asking me if i would hand over the car not running properly the answer is NO. now we don't do tuning, i have people for that, that being said they are hard to find and hard to work with.

when people tell me they want there car to handle and drive like a new Corvette of BMW i tell them to just go buy one and save your money!
your car was obviously a HUGE DREAM that you decided to try and make come true as are MOST of these builds it is unfortunate that it has turned into a nightmare!!
hell i cant afford one of these car!! but if i could i LET ME TELL YOU!!!
hope it all works out and you get to enjoy it !!
Nope didn’t take it that way at all 🤪 Just wa asking if you would even deliver a car like that and you answered that ‼️
Just so we're clear Mario, I'm 100% with you and GW. I am picky, I expect someone's best effort and quality. I tell them upfront before price is even talked about...

I am not understanding people who don't speak up when they don't get what they paid for...

Jeff-
I understand Jeff sorry if it came off the wrong way .

[GregWeld]

So --- In agreement with Brycen.... I will sum this up for the BUILDERS here and the customers.....

I've had FOUR rather expensive pro-built cars done.

#1 - Steve Frisbee built '32 Ford --- rebuild is the correct description. Was in excess of $200K worth of work.

Car didn't run....

Started and ran my brand new motor with no oil.... had I not been there at the time - they'd have run it til it seized. I heard the lifters rattling and said kill it! They were so stupid they didn't bother to check the dipstick - nor pre-prime the motor after sitting for a year.

Car had no brake lights

Car had to be flat bedded within 2 hours of being driven - because of crap wire job

Car puked coolant and oil from every line made.

They charged me $15K for fixing it. This was all work they had been paid to perform the first time around. Don't even get me started..... If I see him I'd like to punch his fat little face because he's a dick and an idiot.


#2 -- Roy Brizio built '33 -- Car was $283K.... had several minor teething issues. Every one of them fixed correctly -- paint touched up - car detailed and looking brand spanking new every time I took it in for something - or even just asked to store it for a couple months. NO CHARGE EVER -- NO "NOT MY PROBLEM" EVER.

#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.

#4 -- '40 Ford.... We shall see..... my guess is. It fires up - drives 3,000 miles problem free.


MARIO nor I expect perfection from first start up -- what we do expect when stuff is leaking -- or stuff the builder DID -- not a part that broke under warranty -- is to have the issue resolved in a fair and equitable manor. Even if it takes more time - and costs some money.

Neither of us would ask for a "discount" up front before starting a build.... we ask for the things we want - we expect to pay for them - we EXPECT you the builder to be a professional that you represent yourself as -- and to FORESEE issues when you're building this crap. Don't set my engine back in a custom built firewall and not be able to remove the valve covers. Don't give me a car that the brake lines are leaking. Don't give me a car puking oil. Don't give me a car with fuses blowing repeatedly.

These cars cost what brand new Ferraris and Bentleys cost. Be a professional and fix the issues YOU caused - without hesitation, or question, or additional billing.

Nobody that's done this work would expect perfection or a lifetime warranty -- or take issue with a part that takes a dump -- what you expect is for the builder to fix the issues THEY CAUSED.

[SSLance]

Many of you know I recently purchased a new home from a production builder that builds 1,000 homes a year. This builder has policies and procedures for every little thing involved with the construction and sale of a new home. They are not "newbies" at this at all...

On Monday we had our 5 month meeting with our warranty rep. This is where we bring up any small issues we have and they take care of them under their 12 month bumper to bumper warranty laid out in their manuals. It's all good, basically the house is fine, couple small issues like a garage door that needs adjusted because it won't stay up and a couple service doors that have sagged and need adjusted. No big deal...

Later that day I notice this laying up on the roof.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Montana/n-r3dCrk/i-RJ6bCcd/0/64c183f3/XL/i-RJ6bCcd-XL.jpg

I send the rep a quick email "Hey, also noticed a vent cap has come loose up on the roof if you want to put that on your list of items to take care of"

She replies back that I need to contact the roofer for that... :wacko:

I ask her for the # and ask "Why?" She says she is not responsible for "storm damage"... :bang:

So I call the roofer, after a 30 minute conversation with their CSR...who absolutely won't schedule an appt without me agreeing to pay a service call charge first...I take my big camera out for some better pictures.

Her story is the same thing, "we've had lots of storm damage in your neighborhood, this is absolutely storm damage, storm damage is not covered under the warranty". She even tried to put the blame on another trade, saying that is the dryer vent..."not one of their pieces". I ask "who installed it?" "Well, we did but the trade gave it to us to install". She had never even seen what came loose and had no idea what the vent was for or why it came loose. Every time I'd refute her next excuse, she'd put me on hold...go talk to her boss (the owner of the roofing company) and come back to me with his next excuse to use... I was blown away at the effort they both put into NOT accepting that this just might be their fault or at least taking a look at it first before disavowing all responsibility for their shoddy work.

Now, here's the deal... I could fix this in less than 10 minutes myself...little bit of PVC glue and a ladder is all I'd need. Thing is, their warranty specifically states that if there is ANY sign of the homeowner being up on the roof, the warranty is null and void. So I can NOT fix it myself.

Here's what the pictures show...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Montana/n-r3dCrk/i-LfXmwvd/0/b1d80ead/XL/i-LfXmwvd-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Montana/n-r3dCrk/i-VwRPD6C/0/92e56266/XL/i-VwRPD6C-XL.jpg

Check out the paint line on the top of the vent the piece came off of.

Look real close at the inside of the piece that came off...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Montana/n-r3dCrk/i-zt3Rzd5/0/c41aff96/XL/i-zt3Rzd5-XL.jpg

Clear case of improper install IMHO... The cap was never put all the way on the vent, nor was it ever glued. The one right next to it looks like it's ready to come off as well.

I sent an email (with read receipt) back to both the builder and the roofer CSRs explaining how this was NOT storm damage but instead improper install yesterday about noon...and included high res photos of the items in the email. I have still not heard back from either of them even though they both read the email not long after I sent it.

I paid well North of 2-3 times what one of Greg's car builds cost for this house and am having to have this battle over a 5 minute warranty fix on a "production" builder's product. :bitchslap:

Should I have to have this battle? IMHO not a chance. But what are my choices here? Blast the builder thru every channel I can to force them to fix it or just keep presenting the facts and the way I see it to them until they finally cave in and fix it like they should have from the very beginning.

These days it seems the first answer with any company when an issue comes up is almost ALWAYS "it's not my problem, it's somebody else's" until you can convince them it IS their problem. Sometimes it even takes drastic measures to convince them...this is the difference between the good ones and the not so good ones... I expect I'll have to have a relationship with the builder of my home for some time to come still, so I remain very friendly, very tactful, but yet very firm on what I expect from them. Eventually the facts will win out and we can both go forward still getting along...

[Vegas69]

The economy also plays into the problem. When everybody is flourishing attitudes can change. Egos swell and confidence rises when things are going well.

"I'm so busy right now, what do I care about burning a few bridges."

Guess what, the day isn't far off when you won't be that busy and the seeds you've sown will come back to bite you at the worst possible time. Amazing how that always seems to be the way it works out in this life.

Work hard and ALWAYS treat people right and you'll flourish regardless of circumstance. The tortoise and the truth are the best way to build an enterprise that will stand the test of time. You'll sleep well and money won't be an issue.

[GregWeld]

Here's how I'd fix it ---

Get a ladder

Climb up there with a can of cement

Done


Not worth the time spent on the phone call getting pissed off --- and not worth the time to wait for the newbie idiot that shows up 2 hours late.... and stuffs it back on without glue... so it comes off again next "storm". LOL

[GregWeld]

Mario -- Not putting you on the spot -- but it would help if you detailed the issues -- so maybe people get a better idea of what's gone on -- and to get a clearer picture in their heads of "is it Mario expecting too much vs the builder is shirking their duties".

[DOOM]

So --- In agreement with Brycen.... I will sum this up for the BUILDERS here and the customers.....

I've had FOUR rather expensive pro-built cars done.

#1 - Steve Frisbee built '32 Ford --- rebuild is the correct description. Was in excess of $200K worth of work.

Car didn't run....

Started and ran my brand new motor with no oil.... had I not been there at the time - they'd have run it til it seized. I heard the lifters rattling and said kill it! They were so stupid they didn't bother to check the dipstick - nor pre-prime the motor after sitting for a year.

Car had no brake lights

Car had to be flat bedded within 2 hours of being driven - because of crap wire job

Car puked coolant and oil from every line made.

They charged me $15K for fixing it. This was all work they had been paid to perform the first time around. Don't even get me started..... If I see him I'd like to punch his fat little face because he's a dick and an idiot.


#2 -- Roy Brizio built '33 -- Car was $283K.... had several minor teething issues. Every one of them fixed correctly -- paint touched up - car detailed and looking brand spanking new every time I took it in for something - or even just asked to store it for a couple months. NO CHARGE EVER -- NO "NOT MY PROBLEM" EVER.

#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.

#4 -- '40 Ford.... We shall see..... my guess is. It fires up - drives 3,000 miles problem free.


MARIO nor I expect perfection from first start up -- what we do expect when stuff is leaking -- or stuff the builder DID -- not a part that broke under warranty -- is to have the issue resolved in a fair and equitable manor. Even if it takes more time - and costs some money.

Neither of us would ask for a "discount" up front before starting a build.... we ask for the things we want - we expect to pay for them - we EXPECT you the builder to be a professional that you represent yourself as -- and to FORESEE issues when you're building this crap. Don't set my engine back in a custom built firewall and not be able to remove the valve covers. Don't give me a car that the brake lines are leaking. Don't give me a car puking oil. Don't give me a car with fuses blowing repeatedly.

These cars cost what brand new Ferraris and Bentleys cost. Be a professional and fix the issues YOU caused - without hesitation, or question, or additional billing.

Nobody that's done this work would expect perfection or a lifetime warranty -- or take issue with a part that takes a dump -- what you expect is for the builder to fix the issues THEY CAUSED.

I'm gonna make GW my spokesmen he's way better at explaining than I am. :lol: This is 100% exactly where I'm coming from ! JUST FIX THE THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN CORRECT SINCE THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!! This is all I'm asking!

[DOOM]

The economy also plays into the problem. When everybody is flourishing attitudes can change. Egos swell and confidence rises when things are going well.

"I'm so busy right now, what do I care about burning a few bridges."

Guess what, the day isn't far off when you won't be that busy and the seeds you've sown will come back to bite you at the worst possible time. Amazing how that always seems to be the way it works out in this life.

Work hard and ALWAYS treat people right and you'll flourish regardless of circumstance. The tortoise and the truth are the best way to build an enterprise that will stand the test of time. You'll sleep well and money won't be an issue.

So true Todd! I live by your last sentence .

[DOOM]

Mario -- Not putting you on the spot -- but it would help if you detailed the issues -- so maybe people get a better idea of what's gone on -- and to get a clearer picture in their heads of "is it Mario expecting too much vs the builder is shirking their duties".

Greg I'm going to put the whole order of events on my original build thread. As well as the ''FIXED'' problems. :captain1:

[SSLance]

Here's how I'd fix it ---

Get a ladder

Climb up there with a can of cement

Done


Not worth the time spent on the phone call getting pissed off --- and not worth the time to wait for the newbie idiot that shows up 2 hours late.... and stuffs it back on without glue... so it comes off again next "storm". LOL

I didn't get mad about it...yet... Thankfully I have the necessary free time and take it as a personal challenge to correct those that are mistaken. :stirthepot:

Just playing devil's advocate here for a second though...how is me fixing this issue myself any different than you just bolting on a second catch can to the dirt missile? We both have the ability to fix the issues that we both shouldn't "have" to be fixing.

It seems like both "issues" can be traced back to a sub contractor not doing something properly and the contractor not quickly taking care of getting it fixed properly.

Only difference I see is I can possibly create a later warranty issue with the roof itself if I fix my issue.

[GregWeld]

I didn't get mad about it...yet... Thankfully I have the necessary free time and take it as a personal challenge to correct those that are mistaken. :stirthepot:

Just playing devil's advocate here for a second though...how is me fixing this issue myself any different than you just bolting on a second catch can to the dirt missile? We both have the ability to fix the issues that we both shouldn't "have" to be fixing.

It seems like both "issues" can be traced back to a sub contractor not doing something properly and the contractor not quickly taking care of getting it fixed properly.

Only difference I see is I can possibly create a later warranty issue with the roof itself if I fix my issue.




My personal view is -- MY TIME IS VALUABLE -- a simple fix is a simple fix...... and to me - while it's someone else's "issue" -- I'm not willing to spend half a F'n day for something that takes 30 minutes total.

I'm not out to rub people's noses in their mistakes --- mistakes happen - everything can have an issue. We're talking about how people resolve issues that is what is important.

In other words --- if I had a brand new car and noticed the radiator hose was dripping coolant -- is that an issue for the builder?? Or should I just take a friggin wrench and 2 minutes of my time and just fix it. I'd just fix it.

If the builder put your window in and it won't open at all despite my clumsy best effort -- then I'm asking the builder to fix it.

[FaBrycation]

what happens if your tail light is "floppy"?









too soon?



:peepwall:

[SSLance]

In other words --- if I had a brand new car and noticed the radiator hose was dripping coolant -- is that an issue for the builder?? Or should I just take a friggin wrench and 2 minutes of my time and just fix it. I'd just fix it.

If the builder put your window in and it won't open at all despite my clumsy best effort -- then I'm asking the builder to fix it.



I get that totally... The thing is though, that line is different for everyone because of "their" personal abilities.

I have a neighbor raising hell with the builder because the sand has washed out between the pavers in their driveway. They either don't think it's their responsibility to replace the sand that has washed out or can't...and are holding the builders feet to the fire to make them fix it under the warranty.

I can (and have already) picked sand up at the hardware store and swept it into the voids in my driveway...just part of being a homeowner in my eyes.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is for everyone to try to be reasonable on both sides and to do their best to take stock of the situation and come to a reasonable solution to the issues that come up.

I'm certain all of the builders reading this thread have had "that customer" that wants the sand in their driveway voids replaced at no charge and they cringe every time the customer calls and I'm certain all of the owners reading this thread have had "that builder" who refuses to fix their blatant screw ups because they are too busy or just don't care.

Whether they are one time deals on either side or standard operating procedure...should also be taken into consideration before final judgement is passed.

[mfain]

After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.”

Two track sessions is not “LOTS of testing and tuning”. Sutton knew after the NASA event test what needed to be done, and he set about to do it as part of the expected series of “set-up, testing, and tuning”. Sutton’s post after the NASA event reads:

“The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.”

Greg, for reasons of his own and which he has attempted to explain in his posts, elected to terminate Sutton’s involvement and eliminated the opportunity for him to make things right. The car was fast out of the box, due primarily to a solid, well thought out suspension design. It needed finish work and correction of the Sutton-identified issues. Oil venting from high horsepower, dry-sump LS motors, for example, is a continuing problem (just read the Corvette racing or LS forums), but there are known solutions. Wiring and the body needed to be cleaned up – okay…all part of the process.

An individual can terminate a contract or relationship any time he chooses, but to slander the other party or use that as a basis to mount a campaign to wreck his business is just wrong. It’s fair to state your case, but to “imply” that the problem is wide spread without providing adequate supporting documentation in a vindictive effort to harm the other party is unethical.

Ron Sutton has provided a valuable service to this community with his knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge. Many of you who have jumped on the bandwagon have multiple posts on Ron’s suspension stickys asking for free advice. It was a bold step to try to create a business catering to the true performance end of the Pro-touring community. Someone asked why he thought he could compete with Summit or Jegs. Who wants to wade through pages of generic parts to get to real, quality performance parts tailored to our type of project? Have you tried to call Summit and ask for a quote on a very custom sway bar from Speedway Engineering? – How did that work out for you? Ron did that for me, and I got the bar in 3 weeks. He let me order a set of Forgeline wheels under one of his sales events, even though I didn’t have the backspace dimensions worked out yet. A couple of months later, when I got my act together and gave him the info, he ordered the wheels that day at the sales price (and free shipping). I have never had an issue with his service or responsiveness, although sometimes you have to wait for his supplier to provide unique or custom-order parts.

I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.

Pappy

[dhutton]

After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it....

Pappy

I am not a subject matter expert regarding six figure custom built cars. Not even close and I did not mean to imply that I am. I’ve steered clear of the whole Sutton Weld debacle for that precise reason. My navel gazing was not directed at that build. I was just sharing some general thoughts from an engineering perspective.

Don

[GregWeld]

what happens if your tail light is "floppy"?









too soon?



:peepwall:




You pack the POS with tannerite and put in a field out 1500 yards and light it up.....

[GregWeld]

I get that totally... The thing is though, that line is different for everyone because of "their" personal abilities.

I have a neighbor raising hell with the builder because the sand has washed out between the pavers in their driveway. They either don't think it's their responsibility to replace the sand that has washed out or can't...and are holding the builders feet to the fire to make them fix it under the warranty.

I can (and have already) picked sand up at the hardware store and swept it into the voids in my driveway...just part of being a homeowner in my eyes.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is for everyone to try to be reasonable on both sides and to do their best to take stock of the situation and come to a reasonable solution to the issues that come up.

I'm certain all of the builders reading this thread have had "that customer" that wants the sand in their driveway voids replaced at no charge and they cringe every time the customer calls and I'm certain all of the owners reading this thread have had "that builder" who refuses to fix their blatant screw ups because they are too busy or just don't care.

Whether they are one time deals on either side or standard operating procedure...should also be taken into consideration before final judgement is passed.



Here's something you'll learn with PAVERS ---- that's not just ordinary "sand" in the gaps -- or sure as hell shouldn't be -- there's an actual sand for pavers called POLYMERIC that when you add some moisture - sets up and stays in place.

[GregWeld]

Nobody is irritated.... and most have no axe to grind.

I'm not going to regurgitate the Sutton debacle in here..... and all I'm going to say about that is #1 -- you weren't a part of it (my build or any of the track events).... and you really "had to be there" to fully understand. Trust me when I tell you the people that were there -- were a whole lot "rougher" about it than I was.

#2 -- It's been stated on Lateral G MANY TIMES -- there was / is adequate "evidence" for the website to take action. It's also been stated several times - that what people share in private is not for others to "out" them.

#3 -- Sutton ruined his own business. It started WAY WAY WAY before my build. You just don't want to see it.

I was at the IMSA GT races this weekend -- with friends that have been racing and building cars for YEARS.... and IMSA GT racing is a little bit above where we all are... Ya think? They (my friends) had already seen the chassis work and lower control arms etc -- and they were mortified by what they saw. None would run the car. So "being fast" isn't all of what makes a car good....

There were MANY REASONS for firing his sorry ass..... But mostly because he's clueless.







After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.”

Two track sessions is not “LOTS of testing and tuning”. Sutton knew after the NASA event test what needed to be done, and he set about to do it as part of the expected series of “set-up, testing, and tuning”. Sutton’s post after the NASA event reads:

“The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.”

Greg, for reasons of his own and which he has attempted to explain in his posts, elected to terminate Sutton’s involvement and eliminated the opportunity for him to make things right. The car was fast out of the box, due primarily to a solid, well thought out suspension design. It needed finish work and correction of the Sutton-identified issues. Oil venting from high horsepower, dry-sump LS motors, for example, is a continuing problem (just read the Corvette racing or LS forums), but there are known solutions. Wiring and the body needed to be cleaned up – okay…all part of the process.

An individual can terminate a contract or relationship any time he chooses, but to slander the other party or use that as a basis to mount a campaign to wreck his business is just wrong. It’s fair to state your case, but to “imply” that the problem is wide spread without providing adequate supporting documentation in a vindictive effort to harm the other party is unethical.

Ron Sutton has provided a valuable service to this community with his knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge. Many of you who have jumped on the bandwagon have multiple posts on Ron’s suspension stickys asking for free advice. It was a bold step to try to create a business catering to the true performance end of the Pro-touring community. Someone asked why he thought he could compete with Summit or Jegs. Who wants to wade through pages of generic parts to get to real, quality performance parts tailored to our type of project? Have you tried to call Summit and ask for a quote on a very custom sway bar from Speedway Engineering? – How did that work out for you? Ron did that for me, and I got the bar in 3 weeks. He let me order a set of Forgeline wheels under one of his sales events, even though I didn’t have the backspace dimensions worked out yet. A couple of months later, when I got my act together and gave him the info, he ordered the wheels that day at the sales price (and free shipping). I have never had an issue with his service or responsiveness, although sometimes you have to wait for his supplier to provide unique or custom-order parts.

I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.

Pappy

[DOOM]

I am not a subject matter expert regarding six figure custom built cars. Not even close and I did not mean to imply that I am. I’ve steered clear of the whole Sutton Weld debacle for that precise reason. My navel gazing was not directed at that build. I was just sharing some general thoughts from an engineering perspective.

Don

Don don't bother trying to explain yourself.:knock:

[DOOM]

''I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.''

First off I don't get the whole club thing . Nothing was said about Ron in this conversation. I don't really know you or what kind of car you have . With that being said until you get it shoved up your a@# after spending 2-300 thousand on a car that was ''PROFESSIONALLY'' done l think you would become a ''CLUB'' member !:thankyou:

[Ketzer]

Something I posted in the build thread I think bears repeating here...

I hope you can come out the other side of this still having some love for your car. I've only seen pics, but it is absolutely stunning. Please try to move through getting the problems worked out so you can enjoy the car. I can understand how just thinking about it sours the dream... it's not the car's fault, and the car overall is amazing!


Jeff-

[FETorino]

Poor Benny

He will be missed.

[DOOM]

I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!:thankyou::animated_bye_bye_em

[kwhizz]

I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!:thankyou::animated_bye_bye_em



Bingo !!!!!!

[79 Camaro]

Afternoon all,

I just read thru the whole thread. It really sucks that some ones dream car project goes sideways very badly. I worked in the custom machinery business for over 36 years. Prices started at 300K. We used joke that when a customer wanted an "identical" machine to the last the only thing that was identical was the paint color. I worked as a tech for 10 years and sales for 26 years.

I can't afford a custom car build. Just don't have the cash. I do about 75% of the work myself. The stuff I farm out I always get it in writing what are the expectations. Protects me and the supplier.

Two things that were built into the machine prices. Warranty fund and "Goodwill" fund. Two separate accounts. Warranty was just that. It covered unexpected parts failures and such. The Goodwill fund was used when a customer had an issue, not really our fault but a good customer that was important to satisfy.

One of the things that we made clear to the customer any time they wanted to either supply parts or use a part not standard to us there would be no warranty and integrating their part is "time and material" only. No fixed price on that part integration. We would never warranty new or used parts supplied to our customer by a third party.

All the cool parts you see advertised on-line and in the magazines are a bit scary to me. Might be a great part but the supplier may be out of business tomorrow and then what do you do?

Maybe the time is past when you can set down again with the builder and come to a better conclusion. But any time the attorneys get involved it is going to get very messy. Your documentation will need to be spot on.

I see all these very cool cars at shows and on TV and assume they run great right out of the box.

Good luck.

[Blake Foster]

Afternoon all,


Two things that were built into the machine prices. Warranty fund and "Goodwill" fund. Two separate accounts. Warranty was just that. It covered unexpected parts failures and such. The Goodwill fund was used when a customer had an issue, not really our fault but a good customer that was important to satisfy.


just so i understand the machine was say 250,000.00 and then you charged the customer lets say another 50,000.00 for warranty and goodwill? what if there was no warranty or goodwill needed? did the customer get his 50,000 premium back? or was that just extra profit at the end of the day?

[dhutton]

just so i understand the machine was say 250,000.00 and then you charged the customer lets say another 50,000.00 for warranty and goodwill? what if there was no warranty or goodwill needed? did the customer get his 50,000 premium back? or was that just extra profit at the end of the day?

Warranty reserves are normally based on historical warranty costs. At least that is my experience. It is normally taken as a percentage of product cost. If you are delivering quality products should not be more than a few percent. Your example is quite extreme...

Don

[randy]

Man I was too busy hitting cones to check out all of the nice cars. I need to start putting names with cars lol


I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!:thankyou::animated_bye_bye_em

[Blake Foster]

Warranty reserves are normally based on historical warranty costs. At least that is my experience. It is normally taken as a percentage of product cost. If you are delivering quality products should not be more than a few percent. Your example is quite extreme...

Don

i am sure it was extreme, but just trying to understand the concept. if it is COG that is totally different than the way i read the original statement. if it is cog then. you (the manufacturer builder) are just covering off the warranty. It sounded like the warranty and goodwill were being added to the sell price and there for the customer was paying for it over and above the true selling price of the WhatChamacallit. which i guess in all reality is what most retailers are doing now anyway buy the Extended warranty deal.

[DOOM]

Just so everyone understands . All my issues with BBT are workmanship related . I have a hood hitting the core support ,left front tire hitting the fender windows that don't go up and seal correctly, a ECM that will take a act of god to get out if it ever goes bad I wanted it relocated. That's the short list. I understand he just installs the parts he don't manufacture them I don't hold him responsible for any of that. My engine is a pile of SH!T ! It was his engine builder who built the engine . And I personally don't think he did anything wrong. From the time my car went to Columbus then to SEMA it was never tuned correctly . I hold him and the two ''TUNERS'' responsible for what happen to my engine . 44 DEGRESSS ADVANCE TIMING WTF COULD HAPPEN THERE ON A FRESCH ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So that's where I'm coming from I don't expect a lifetime warranty with my car just fix the issues from day one. :thankyou:

[GregWeld]

Totally agree Mario. It’s his job to make things fit correctly. That’s build quality. Whom ever tuned the engine last is the one that’s responsible for timing. That’s one in the very first things that should have been checked before anything. A:F ratios so they’re not too fat and not too lean before you ever fire it off. Don’t know who worked on it but that’s super basic stuff anyone should have done.

[79 Camaro]

The warranty and goodwill funds were a small percentage of every machine price build up. 2-3% typically. No we didn't give any rebates back to the customer. We adjusted the percentage each year depending on the previous year costs and forecast for the new year.

One thing we did do though is each project was judged in regards to risk and complexity. The higher the risk and complexity the higher the assigned margin.

On rush deliveries the sales department could not make a commitment to the customer without the approval from all the other departments that might be affected by the accelerated schedule.

I totally agree there is no excuse for poor workmanship. I would not accept poor workmanship at any level of cost.

A few of things we did that really helped with customer satisfaction.

1. Design reviews: Prior to purchase. At the time of purchase to reconfirm specs. Design review at completion of the mechanical and electrical design.
Sounds like a lot time spent on design reviews but it really only took a few hours per stage. It was up to the customer to attend in person or via WebEx. We did everything in Solid Works 3D so the customer really could see what they were getting and approved of what was being designed.

2. A project manager was assigned to each machine after the sale.They would typically look after 10-15 machines at any one time. They were the main link to the customer after the sale. Any problems or changes to project scope were looked after by the project manager. The project manager was responsible for the machine (or could be a car) until the customer accepted the machine. With the level of costs that the cars being built at today I think a project manager could a life saver.

3. As said above these are really one off custom cars. Test and debug is critical. It was the same for our machines. So once the machines were completed by the build team and prior to customer inspection, at team of 4 employees were selected. One mechanical engineer, one electrical engineer, one service tech and a different project manager to run a "mock" customer inspection. They were instructed to be highly critical. Any faults were documented and corrected.

I don't know if the above is any help. Just food for thought for customers and builders.

Again I am sorry your project went so wrong.

[DOOM]

The warranty and goodwill funds were a small percentage of every machine price build up. 2-3% typically. No we didn't give any rebates back to the customer. We adjusted the percentage each year depending on the previous year costs and forecast for the new year.

One thing we did do though is each project was judged in regards to risk and complexity. The higher the risk and complexity the higher the assigned margin.

On rush deliveries the sales department could not make a commitment to the customer without the approval from all the other departments that might be affected by the accelerated schedule.

I totally agree there is no excuse for poor workmanship. I would not accept poor workmanship at any level of cost.

A few of things we did that really helped with customer satisfaction.

1. Design reviews: Prior to purchase. At the time of purchase to reconfirm specs. Design review at completion of the mechanical and electrical design.
Sounds like a lot time spent on design reviews but it really only took a few hours per stage. It was up to the customer to attend in person or via WebEx. We did everything in Solid Works 3D so the customer really could see what they were getting and approved of what was being designed.

2. A project manager was assigned to each machine after the sale.They would typically look after 10-15 machines at any one time. They were the main link to the customer after the sale. Any problems or changes to project scope were looked after by the project manager. The project manager was responsible for the machine (or could be a car) until the customer accepted the machine. With the level of costs that the cars being built at today I think a project manager could a life saver.

3. As said above these are really one off custom cars. Test and debug is critical. It was the same for our machines. So once the machines were completed by the build team and prior to customer inspection, at team of 4 employees were selected. One mechanical engineer, one electrical engineer, one service tech and a different project manager to run a "mock" customer inspection. They were instructed to be highly critical. Any faults were documented and corrected.

I don't know if the above is any help. Just food for thought for customers and builders.

Again I am sorry your project went so wrong.

I like this ! I'm going to do so much different the next go around . As my wife said don't blame anyone but myself for what happen . That's what you get for being nice . And it's funny I always say the azzhole and bastards always come out on top . Being nice doesn't work ask GW!

[79 Camaro]

Ok so after this I will shut up.

One thing I didn't include.

We rated projects A, B, C, D and E. The ratings helped determine risk.

"A" projects. No risk to us or the customer. Basically the same as other projects. Reduced margins because they could be turned out quickly with little chance of complications.

"B" projects. Low risk. Typically minor changes to a previous build. Sometimes a new customer. Standard margins.

"C" projects. Custom builds with known components but per customer specs required additional design time along with increased debug time. Slightly higher margin in the price build up. About 2-3%.

"D" projects. Here's where it get's a bit intense and really needs close review by the builder and the customer. Many new components. Many new design ideas. Extended delivery times based on new design and debug time. Again increased margins to cover (hopefully) the unknowns.

"E" projects. We just say no in the best possible way. If the customer offers more money but the project scope doesn't change again the answer is no. I can't stress that enough, don't be tempted with more money it could kill your business and even worse create a very unhappy customer.

On all C and D projects we had staff meetings twice a week if needed to review those projects. That meeting included engineering, production and service. As sales people we were expected to bring the best information to the meeting. Customers were invited to attend to help determine the best solution. So of the best projects were when the customer was very engaged.

I hope I don't come off a as a "I know everything" about machine building. Just want to pass on what has worked for me in the past.

Again I hope this helps bot the customer and the builder.

[Matt@BOS]

Ok so after this I will shut up.

One thing I didn't include.

We rated projects A, B, C, D and E. The ratings helped determine risk.

"A" projects. No risk to us or the customer. Basically the same as other projects. Reduced margins because they could be turned out quickly with little chance of complications.

"B" projects. Low risk. Typically minor changes to a previous build. Sometimes a new customer. Standard margins.

"C" projects. Custom builds with known components but per customer specs required additional design time along with increased debug time. Slightly higher margin in the price build up. About 2-3%.

"D" projects. Here's where it get's a bit intense and really needs close review by the builder and the customer. Many new components. Many new design ideas. Extended delivery times based on new design and debug time. Again increased margins to cover (hopefully) the unknowns.

"E" projects. We just say no in the best possible way. If the customer offers more money but the project scope doesn't change again the answer is no. I can't stress that enough, don't be tempted with more money it could kill your business and even worse create a very unhappy customer.

On all C and D projects we had staff meetings twice a week if needed to review those projects. That meeting included engineering, production and service. As sales people we were expected to bring the best information to the meeting. Customers were invited to attend to help determine the best solution. So of the best projects were when the customer was very engaged.

I hope I don't come off a as a "I know everything" about machine building. Just want to pass on what has worked for me in the past.

Again I hope this helps bot the customer and the builder.

I feel like all pro-touring cars fall into the C, D, and E categories...

[79 Camaro]

The cool thing about a great C or D project is that it in the future they could be A and B projects.

[Vegas69]

Not in the pro-touring world. Custom is what makes this hobby like crack cocaine. ha

[andrewb70]

Mario,

I am truly sorry for your troubles. I don't know you and I am not really familiar with your project, but you did post about the Dominator ECU issues that you were having.

When I heard that the shop wanted to install a separate MSD box to retard the timing during start-up, I immediately knew you were dealing with people who don't have a single clue about Holley EFI, or EFI in general. It was clearly obvious that they didn't install the distributor correctly and didn't do the proper phasing procedure to validate actual timing at the balancer. Clueless...

Hell, I have my Cougar for sale for $19K...I can get in it and drive it anywhere at the drop of a hat. It's not perfect, but it is dead nuts reliable and gets looks everywhere I take it. Everything on the car WORKS. I'd be happy to deliver it to your door for Thanksgiving. My wife and I are heading to WI to visit her family for Thanksgiving.

Best of luck with getting your car sorted out!!!

Andrew

[DOOM]

Mario,

I am truly sorry for your troubles. I don't know you and I am not really familiar with your project, but you did post about the Dominator ECU issues that you were having.

When I heard that the shop wanted to install a separate MSD box to retard the timing during start-up, I immediately knew you were dealing with people who don't have a single clue about Holley EFI, or EFI in general. It was clearly obvious that they didn't install the distributor correctly and didn't do the proper phasing procedure to validate actual timing at the balancer. Clueless...

Hell, I have my Cougar for sale for $19K...I can get in it and drive it anywhere at the drop of a hat. It's not perfect, but it is dead nuts reliable and gets looks everywhere I take it. Everything on the car WORKS. I'd be happy to deliver it to your door for Thanksgiving. My wife and I are heading to WI to visit her family for Thanksgiving.

Best of luck with getting your car sorted out!!!

Andrew

Thank You Andrew. It's all good. At the end of the day it's a big lesson learned for me . But it's going to be an even bigger lesson learned for BBT.:G-Dub: I just okayed the first letter to be sent out today, outlining how it's going to work to correct the problems with the car. And it won't be repaired by BBT. That's the simple version. Will see what happens next. What really sucks is the car is going to be in the next issue of Chevy High Performance . Kind of bitter sweet but that's just the way it's been with this build. Stay Tune:popcorn2: