When does a rebuild change to a re-bodied Car?

[tyoneal]

Hello:

I know we spoke about this a bit a while back, but I wanted to get some additional input regarding this subject.

I've got a decent project car to work with, but recently I found a Z/28 for sale that needed to be completely rebuilt. (My project car actually ran, but was rusted a bit everywhere so a new set of skins will be needed for starters)

The Z/28 unfortunitely had sat outside for a number of years up north and basically needed a lot more work than the original car.

I plan on putting a new front and rear subframe under either car as to take advantage of the great technology now available.

There are clean titles on both of them. The Z/28 had fought a battle with rust valiantly, but had lost for the most part. The frame rails were in bad shape as well as all of the suspension and interior. The best parts of the car was the firewall, "A" pillar, most of the door jams and part of the roof. A bit of the internal bracing was usable as well.

The car that ran had had many parts of several 69 Camaro's swapped out, but was in considerably better shape.

I'm not sure if using a donor car for a rebuild would be a legitimate way to rebuild it, or if it would be considered a rebodied car.

I have many friends who rebuild Model A and T Fords. It is not uncommon for them to be in terrible shape. Swap meets, hand building parts and donor cars are often used to "Make" a complete car without having to go to a fiberglass body. Floors are replaced etc. You probably know the drill.

If the frame and body are capable of being legally titled, it is done so. Generally the number is on the frame of these cars. However, to make a good street rod, much of the frame is replaced and boxed.

Please give me some thoughts on this subject. I ABSOLUTELY don't want to break any laws, (I live in Texas if it makes a difference), But I also want to have an authentic Camaro, a HotRod Z/28 if possible. If I go to sell it, I want to be able to have a real car and not a "Rebodied" car. :thumbsup:

In either case, a Dynacorn body is NOT an option and will not be used.

I look forward to hearing from you. :yes:

Best Regards,

tyoneal

[Derek69SS]

IMHO, if the original tags are still attached to the original firewall, the car is what it is... if the tags are swapped onto another firewall, it's a re-body. So, if you cut the firewall off the Z and weld it onto another car, I'd consider that a Z.

This gets complicated when a car is severely damaged in the front, and the firewall is caved in, but the rest of the body is saveable.

[tyoneal]

Derik:

Thanks for the feedback.

Is there anyone else that has specific or strong feelings on this subject that can share their thoughts?

What value would a Z/28 Body have over a standard bodied car for a protouring project?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks in advance.

Best Regards,

tyoneal

[67PTCAMARO]

If a car is done pro-touring why would I care if it is a Z28 or not. People change everything in the car to make it pro-touring and still brag about being it is a SS or Z28 or whatever. That was a Z28 35 years ago. Build a plain Jane Camaro pro-touring style and have your handling car pro-touring style what factory did it 35 years ago and called it Z28.
Thats my opinion. If I want a Z28 I would keep it original, if I want a good handling car I would pro-tour it and cal it that way.

[fladoans]

I bought a running plain jane camaro last year and am going the pro touring route. I bought it because the cowl tag was a true X11, but it was never an SS. I took the cowl tag off to smooth the firewall, and it will be put back on and noted as such. I also had to replace the dash, but I cut out the VIN plate and welded it to the new dash. I have replaced almost every piece of sheetmetal on the car.

But I do not consider this car rebodied! I have done what almost everyone else who has a 36 year old car has done and that is replace rusted sheetmetal. Maybe some replace it over time, I just replaced it all at once. But it's still not rebodied - it's restored! :rolleyes:

[tyoneal]

My thoughts on it were:

I will badge it as a Z/28 after the full Pro-touring upgrades have been done to it.

Since the drivetrain and suspension was gone many years ago, upgrading it is no big deal. However, if it wasn't a Z/28 at one time, I would not want to mark it as such. Technically at worst it's still a NOM Z/28, right, or would that imply a DZ 302 Engine etc. inside it? It's got to be better than a "clone, memorial or commemerative etc.

There were only 22,XXX Z/28 body's made in 1969. If I had a choice between two cars equally equiped, I would ALWAYS choose the Z/28 Body over any other type.

Wouldn't you'all?

So if I have this right, as long as the dash VIN and the firewall ID are on the original Firewall, then you aren't creating something that could be considered deceptive.

I just don't want to start an expensive project and once finished have a bad cloud on me or my car.

Anyone else?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

My project Car will be called, "Fever".

[fladoans]

If you start with a real Z28 - you end with a real Z28. No matter what you do in between.

I say go for it, take pictures of the project as you proceed and if any body asks questions tell the truth. That way you are not hiding anything and if you ever need to sell it :wow: the person buying will know exactly what they got a real Z28.

[ProTouring442]

My thoughts on it were:

I will badge it as a Z/28 after the full Pro-touring upgrades have been done to it.

Since the drivetrain and suspension was gone many years ago, upgrading it is no big deal. However, if it wasn't a Z/28 at one time, I would not want to mark it as such. Technically at worst it's still a NOM Z/28, right, or would that imply a DZ 302 Engine etc. inside it? It's got to be better than a "clone, memorial or commemerative etc.

No, I think if I were looking for a Z/28 I would rather a "perfect" clone over a car with the correct serial number but everything else wrong.


There were only 22,XXX Z/28 body's made in 1969. If I had a choice between two cars equally equiped, I would ALWAYS choose the Z/28 Body over any other type.

Wouldn't you'all?

There again, I'll say no. If I want a pro-touring car, I want a pro-touring car. Since there is no body difference between a "real" Z/28 and a plain Camaro, I don't think I'd be willing to pay more for a car just because of that serial number. I would only pay more if I were looking for a restoration. On a pro-touring car, I am going to be looking for the work that has been done, not as much on weather or not the emblem on the fender matches some magic number on the firewall.

Just my thoughts,
Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "inamorata"

[tyoneal]

Bill:

Thanks, I appreciate your point of view, you make some valid point points.

I looked at a really nice '69 Z a number of months before, and as nice as it was, I knew it would drive me crazy not being able to take advantage of some of the neat upgrades there are on the market. Plus for the money you could build a hell of a nice car that you could drive and really enjoy.

For fun I wanted a first generation Z/28 as I have had 3 prior to this one, a '67 Coupe, '68 RS, '69 SS.

Thanks again for your honesty,

Regards,

tyoneal

[mstennes]

Just for the record why cant you pro-tour a X33 or X77 Z? I took a Numbers matching RS/SS convertible and pro toured it. I know this is off subject but hell buy a Z, mini tub it, go tubular on the control arms, coil overs, 4 wheel brakes. Z and go LSx, point is buy what you want and do what you want, I did and I know others who have. As far as a re-body that's a tougher call. I have seen cars where every piece of metal has been worked or replaced, change a dash out from rust are they still original?? I don't think so but they are what they started as say X11,22,33,44,66,77 so as long as your not making something its not than if its to save a classic go for it. What makes a Z is the engine, suspension/drivetrain without those who cares what the badges are or trim tags. You can restore the car all you want but with out the original drive train its just another Camaro that once was something say a Z or SS, etc. Anything you do replace those Z only parts well that's going to require restamping or telling its not original which is the truth. The only time that comes into play when you sell or buy or show. I hope this helps as thats my opinion and only that not that its worth much if you ask my wife :lol:, anyway get what YOU want and do what YOU want who cares. I hear purists giving me crap all the time so I tell them its my car not theirs and unless they have x amount of dollars to buy it don't worry about it, at least its being driven and cared for the way it was built to be not hidden in a garage as someones bragging right that has no clue about it.

[tyoneal]

Just for the record why cant you pro-tour a X33 or X77 Z? I took a Numbers matching RS/SS convertable and pro toured it. I know this is off subject but hell buy a Z, mini tub it, go tubular on the control arms, coil overs, 4 wheel brakes. Z and go LSx, point is buy what you want and do what you want, I did and I know others who have. As far as a rebody thats a tougher call. I have seen cars where every piece of metal has been worked or replaced, change a dash out from rust are they still original?? I dont think so but they are what they started as say X11,22,33,44,66,77 so as long as your not making something its not than if its to save a classic go for it. What makes a Z is the engine, suspension/drivetrain without those who cares what the badges are or trim tags. You can restore the car all you want but with out the original drive train its just another Camaro that once was. Anything you do replace those Z only parts well thats going to require restamping or telling its not original which is the truth. The only times that comes into play when you sell or buy or show. I hope this helps as thats my opinion and only that not that its worth much if you ask my wife :lol:, anyway get what YOU want and do what YOU want who cares. I hear purests giving me crap all the time so I tell them its my car not theres and unless they have x amount of dollars to buy it dont worry about it at least its being driven and cared for the way it was built to be not hidden in a garage as someones bragging right that has no clue about it.

In the end, as always, I will do what I want. Before reading it on this forum, I had no idea it was possible or that people did, "re-body" cars. Since my car will not be original inside or out, I don't think I will have a problem with someone thinking it's factory stock.

I certainly don't mind being truthfull about anything car I am involved with I just didn't want to build a, "pig-in-a poke", by not doing my research and later down the road finding out I can't even title or inspect the darn thing.

The build will easily exceed 70k, (No engine yet) and as a small business owner, I like to do diligence before I lay out a bunch of cash on a project.

This forum has been incredibly interesting and informative as well as entertaining, hense many frequent questions.

I would have a very hard time taking a correct car and changing it for my taste. In the case of the 69 Z/28's, truely nice examples are few and far between anyway, and as a collector of other things, I am one to preserve things that have managed to stay in good condition over the years.

Since the '69 was always my favorite year, and finding out that darn near all of them had some serious rust issues or had been terribly abused, it was a big relief that enough people liked them that a complete cottage industry had developed.

Cars now and for the forseable future will probably all look basically alike because of the aerodynamics necessary to increase/maximise gas mileage. So as far as I can tell, with the price of new cars, these classic cars will continue to find eager buyers interested in driving something with true style.

Sorry about the rant.

I encourage further opinions if one feels it necessary. I have gained a lot of good perspective by reading your inputs.

Thanks,

tyoneal