Sometimes things don’t go as planned

[Ron Sutton]

Smart business people typically don’t respond to online attacks. But as this issue has spiraled out of reality, it’s clear I need respond to own the mistakes I made & clear the air about other things. This is more or less my version of the good, bad & ugly.

None of us can be 100% objective about things we’re emotionally involved in. What I say is the facts as I see them, and I know I have a bias like everyone else does. I believe some of what has been stated on Greg’s Mustang thread by people is true … some not … and of course there is always more to the story that puts events into context & perspective.

The big three issues … the dry sump vent, cooling system & body fitment … talked about on the Mustang thread are true.

I am not a race car builder anymore, and I do not want to be. I am a designer & setup guy these days. That is what I’m good at & what I love to do. I didn’t build this race car personally. I had it built. I have 3 good car builders in the U.S. we’ve set up as authorized Track-Warrior builders. Randy Chastain of One-Off customs is the guy in California. They are all super talented, but I am responsible for the end product, no one else.

As most of you know my business has sold a lot of “Build-Your-Own” Track-Warrior chassis packages & clips for shops & talented Do-It-Yourself car guys with fab skills to build. Randy had built “Rollers”, but not a turn-key Track-Warrior until Greg’s Mustang, which we labeled TW001.

The LS, EFI & no-lift shift T56 Sequential powertrain was a new combination for us. I don’t build engines. I configure what I want & the SDPC Race shop in Lubbock, TX builds my Warrior line of engines. Kurt Urban works there now & builds most of my customer engines. Kurt does a great job. The engine ran great & built good power (707HP of the dyno). Joe Dederichs of Texas built the sequential T56 trans with all PPG internals. Worked great. Max Darrah of X-ineering providing the brain & programming for the no-lift shift. Had an issue in June but worked great at this NASA event.

Sometimes things don’t go as planned. We had issues with the cooling & dry sump vent all weekend. It was frustrating & embarrassing. As I stated in post #532 on Greg’s Mustang thread here: https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56209&page=54

I didn’t design the cooling system. I bought the best from C&R, as I have for years, and Randy plumbed it as C&R told us too. That’s not Randy’s fault. But it is my responsibility, because I bought it, and I am responsible for the whole car. Same with the Dry Sump system. I am not trying to shift blame. I am responsible.

Some people asked why we weren’t fixing the problems after the event. I thought we were going to. Greg & I made plans to. So I was as shocked as anyone on Wednesday when the feces hit the rotary oscillator online.

Back in the 80’s I built a lot of fiberglass bodied drag cars. All fiberglass race car bodies suck, but they are a light & affordable way to body a tube chassis race car. Just don’t look real close. Anyone who has built light weight fiberglass race cars knows this as well. Steel bodies are way better, but heavier & exponentially more expensive to build. Working with thin fiberglass race bodies is an art. This was the first time for Randy. Just before the car came apart the final time for powder coat & paint, I inspected the car & Randy had the alignment & gaps good. Not great, but good for a race car.

When the body went back together a few days before the event, the body fitment at the doors & front end was horrible. It’s not supposed to be a show car or even a street car. It’s a race car. But when it went back together for the vinyl wrap people to get started, things moved & the fit was not even good enough for a race car.

Greg told me he didn’t care about the body fitment … “it’s a race car” … and that the goal was to go run this NASA race & see if we could podium in TTU with the new car. Randy & I discussed how much time was needed to re-adjust the fit, and unfortunately we were out of time to make this event.

The misconception is that we put the car out like this as a finished product. Not true. We planned to fix these things when we had more time. I wasn’t happy or “OK” with the body fitment, but knowing Greg & I were friends and we were going to run the car together for the foreseeable future, I knew we would get the car back at Randy’s shop & take the time to fix it & several other appearance things that got rushed, like the wiring & the wrap.

The wiring wasn’t made neat when they ran out of time, so it needs to be cleaned up. The wrap installers started in the rear of the car with the stripes & they weren’t centered on the hood when they got to the front. The wrap surprised us that the yellow vinyl is not solid. The yellow vinyl has a degree of translucency to it, and each dark colored fiberglass filler spot on the body showed through the wrap as a dark spot. Not trying to shift blame. It’s all on me. I planned to have the wrap people re-move the whole wrap, primer the body white & re-wrap the whole car when we had more time, on my dime.

These issues were mistakes, not intentional. In hindsight, I shouldn’t have agreed to keep the original time line for this build when the custom widened body came 3 months late. I made a bad decision. Building a new car of this level for the first time, in only 4 months was unrealistic. It put Randy in a tough spot & there were errors. But Greg Weld has been very good to me. Anyone that knows Greg, knows he is a great person with a heart of gold. We had these dates set & I couldn’t tell him no.

The bottom line is I let Greg down & I’m sick over it. The loss of his friendship is a gut punch. You can always get more business. But a friend like Greg only comes along once in a lifetime. That is what I regret about this most.

Two other important issues were brought up on the thread that I need to address. One of me taking an extremely long time to get some people’s designs & custom parts to them, or their suspension setup with springs & bars. The second is comparisons to Frank at Prodigy who ripped people off for money.

The first is true for some of my clients from 2015 to 2017. I received LOTS of requests for custom car build chassis designs & suspension calcs with setup work ups. Way too many … and my dumb ass didn’t say “no” to anyone, so they piled up. I overloaded myself. I got so far behind that some client projects that should have taken a month took 3 or 4. A few client projects that should have taken 3-4 months took a year or more. Things don’t always work out exactly the way you plan. My fault. No one else’s. I apologize to the folks that projects got delayed so long.

The comparison of me to Frank at Prodigy is not accurate by any stretch of the imagination. I have never scammed anyone out of money. It has been implied I’ve “robbed Peter to pay Paul” and that’s why people didn’t get their parts in a timely manner. Also not true. With the delays in finishing people’s custom designs, their custom made parts were delayed too. But everyone got their parts. With delays in finishing people calcs & suspension set ups … there were delays in getting people their springs or sway bars, until I knew the rates. They got the majority of their parts right away. But the springs & bars didn’t get shipped until I figured out what rates they needed. No one has made a purchase with me & not received their parts. Not ever. I just needed to clear that up.

Today my business is different. In 2018 we moved into a great facility with offices, R&D shop and warehouse with an efficient shipping & receiving area, as well as having a staff of four now. Wendi handles bookkeeping & errands. Susan is a veteran office manager that handles all the business & financial stuff. She also handles all the Workshop registrations. Dave Hanson handles orders & shipping parts out every day. Susan & Dave have freed me up quite a bit. I still handle purchasing, but we plan to add a person soon to handle that, as well as shipping to free Dave up for more customer service time.

We’re doing more business than ever & the business runs smoothly today. I now have more time freed up to do “tailored” designs for clients, of the stuff we already sell & have worked out, as well as do suspension calcs & setups. We have zero projects behind schedule. All the new design work & calcs coming in gets handled in a normal timeline of 1 to 3 months. That can’t get any quicker. That is just what takes.

With the launch of our big catalog in August 2017, I stopped taking on complete “new from scratch” car design work. These can be an ass kicker time wise, because you need to figure out compatibility of a thousand things in the new design. So no more complete “new from scratch” car designs. Not sure I’ll ever do those again.

Now we focus on only two areas. One is doing suspension geometry calcs & setups with folks with the muscle cars we are familiar with. The second being folks that want to build a tube chassis car, of any car/truck body style, using the 4 levels of Track-Warrior front & rear suspensions we already have developed & simply tailor the dimensions to fit their unique car or truck.

If anyone has further questions feel free to call or email me.

[SSLance]

I am happy to see you finally respond to all of this Ron. What happened between you and my friend Greg makes me sad. I can understand both sides and do not pretend to have an answer as to how to fix it or even if it ever can be fixed. In my opinion it is a case of over promise\under deliver with a side helping of unrealistic expectations. Hopefully everyone learns from this and makes better choices going forward.

I am pretty sure I was one of the first people in the Pro-touring game to actively work with Ron after he reached out to help me with my car’s suspension back in 2013. Over the past 5 years or so Ron has not only helped me pick out 5 different stages of suspension development, but has also taught me how to diagnose suspension tuning issues and how to correct them using the parts, pieces and data at my disposal.

I am by no means a big budget guy, most of what we did together was on a shoestring budget working with what I could scrounge up. I can not tell you how many times I’ve talked or texted with Ron on weekends, nights, holidays, in between runs during a race, etc… If Ron had the time, he always took my call and is always willing to help out no matter how big or small my questions may have been at the time.

Now granted, as he has gotten busier…sometimes it take longer for him to respond. What I’ve personally seen though is as soon as he can respond, he does and when he does he is ready with an answer to help me out.

How many of us have benefited over the years with advice or consultation that Ron has freely given out on these forums? How many of us have cars that are faster and better driving than they were before directly because of Ron? Is he right or perfect 100% of the time, not a chance. It is like anything else, there is no one right answer for everyone when dealing with cars and specifically suspensions. What works for one driver\owner\builder may not work at all for another. Ron does a pretty good job in my opinion of figuring out what you need and doing his best to steer you in a direction that will work best for you.

Fiscally speaking, Ron has always been straight up and honest with me. Not only has he always sold me parts at a fair price, but if there was ever an issue with anything I bought from him…he took care of it immediately. For example…last fall I was on a tight time frame to get my Big Brake kit installed. I had 5 days to get it done and the car HAD to roll back out of the shop under it’s own power so I could complete my move to Arizona. On day 2 I discovered that I had (2) Right Rear backing plates and no Left Rear backing plate. I made one quick call to Ron and he overnighted for early morning delivery the left backing plate I needed…at his expense. I had also ordered a bunch of steering parts at the same time that he gladly took back when we discovered that they would not work with my current setup.

I have referred a lot of people to Ron over the years for parts and setup services. I have never heard from any of them that Ron has treated them unfairly fiscally wise. Ron has always taken care of any issues that have come up. The comparison to a flat out thief like Prodigy was not fair.

[mfain]

I think Ron’s post is a very stand-up approach to a difficult situation. I have great empathy for Greg’s compressed timeline (and I sincerely hope it is not really that compressed – he is too ornery for that to happen), but it put both him and Ron in a box. Greg has already stated that others turned down the build because of the time constraints, but Ron gave it the old college try. Building a fully functioning, trouble-free track car in 4 months is an almost impossible task, especially if the car is a prototype of sorts. Ron probably over-extended. Ron has discussed the errors, and I wish he had the opportunity to make the corrections to problems that he accepted as his responsibility and knew were necessary – but that did not work out.

With that said, I will say that I have been doing business with Ron for a number of years and I have had absolutely no problems with the quality or pricing of his service or parts. I order “one-off” stuff and he works with me to get the right product. There are sometimes slight delays, but usually caused by me not having my act together and having to rely on Ron pointing me in the right direction. His Lateral-g stickys on suspension design and car handling have probably greatly increased the technical knowledge of most of us, and all for free.

I know Greg will get his car working the way he thinks it should, with the support of a bunch of great friends. And Ron will continue to be the suspension “magician” that we have relied on to make our cars faster. I wish both the best of luck.
Pappy

[tcgrmt]

Ron I want to thank you for your workshops and sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I don’t see anyone else offering this up. Since my first workshop I knew I had a lot to learn and why my car was handling so poorly. Since then I have attended every workshop. After measuring my car up and getting it optimized by you along with your shock and spring package this thing is mean and only held back by the driver at this point.
Your continued support after the sale is also greatly appreciated including answering text on weekends when I am racing.
Looking forward to working with you on the future changes to make this thing even meaner and hopefully my own track warrior chassis car someday.

[Bryant]

I’m saddened to see a situation like this. I have had the pleasure to work with Ron on several of the projects at my shop. He has always given me the time to make sure what I’m doing is right. His attention to detail is always above what I find from others at similar companies.
I don’t understand how a fast paced car build can be expected to be perfect first time out of the box. That is an unrealistic expectation and I suspect some miscommunication had occurred and then grew out of control.
Ron has fixed and next day aired shocks for one of my customers so we could make a race. He has spent hours on the phone with me a getting my car set up sorted out. I know the he has the best intentions, the ability, and desire to make right to Greg and all the rest of his clients.
I strongly encourage people to take advantage of have a great source of race car building and tuning knowledge and parts that Ron provides.

[Mizzouri]

My history goes back to seeing how Ron worked with Lance and the results he was having locally in our KC events. After reading his suspension posts over and over I decided to have a call with him to finalize the direction I was going to take with my 68 Camaro. In the fall of 2015 I spoke with Ron and he was very thorough in explaining what ALL of my options were and the pros and cons of each path. I never got the impression I was being herded down a path that a lot resellers will take with customers. It was not much later that I laid down a fair bit of coin on parts to take the car to a different level of performance that what I had been seeing on the market at that time. All of the parts came in a very reasonable amount of time as they were ordered. After the car was on the road Ron was invaluable in helping us solve problems with installation issues from the shop that I chose(over tightened suspension bolts was the root). With his guidance the car progressed very nicely. In the end I have learned a LOT from Ron via the web, phone calls, texts, emails, workshops. I'm not trying to sound like an orchestrated fanboy here, the only issue we did have was with some incorrect springs, but once we determined the correct length the right springs were there in 2 days! It's not in a man's errors that I judge him...it's how he RESOLVES them that I do.

[mach1]

I read some of what was in the other thread and it seemed like a lot of childish **** talking which I'm not really interested in but I was very surprised as all of my dealings with Ron over the past 5 years have been on the up and up. He would always go above and beyond as recently as a couple of months ago when something was missed in a shipment and without question it was overnighted to the race track for our race that weekend.

As was said, sometimes things go wrong, we all fail, it's how we learn, how you handle that and move forward is key, I will continue to do business with Ron especially since he is owning up to this as any upstanding person or business owner should. Lesson learned, make it right, move on and keep kicking ass.

[Rmt]

I tried posting earlier, in the vendor/member feedback section, but it was as never approved, so I’ll repeat it here.

Basically, I concur with the earlier post, and my experience had been that Ron Sutton is a GREAT guy to do business with.

After learning so much from reading his posts on this forum,
I purchased a complete design from RSRT, wanting to avail myself to the experience being offered.
He told me up front, that he was a one-man business, and sometimes there would be delays as he got backed up.
As construction progressed, “new car bugs” came up, and Ron was always there.
Improperly made parts replaced, and solutions and alternative ways of going about whatever was difficult.

Being the “problem customer” that I am, I changed my mind in the middle of the project,
going from a wide 5 hub/15” wheel design (I liked the look)
to a 5x5 hub/18” wheel, for better geometry, and brakes.
Ron was busier, and it took longer to get parts this go round, but as always, not only were business dealings straight up, documentation was provided, and suggestions on how to best implement changes.

I consider dealing with RSRT-- buying a design, parts, and workshops,
to be the best investment I’m made.
The continued support is worth more than just the parts ordered.

Robert Taylor

[pro68chevelle]

I started working with Ron in the fall of 2015 after reading threads about how he had helped Lance with his Monte Carlo.

I spoke with Ron on the phone many times so we could decide what direction I wanted to take my build. (Ron always took the time to explain my options and to understand what I wanted from the car).

During my build there have been some delays with parts or wrong parts but Ron has always corrected them or got me the parts as soon as possible.
(Ron has flown to a manufacture to get an issue fixed)

I have learned a lot from Ron's seminars and speaking with him on the phone or by text/emails with questions. He was always willing to help on the phone or return my calls/ texts in a reasonable amount of time. Are there parts of my build the could have gone better YES,but overall I am happy to be working with Ron.

[Kulig]

I'm just a club level racer from over the pond in Oz and I was fortunate enough to come across these forums and the information that Ron gave in the suspension threads which helped me better understand and setup my race car.(This was a great help and it was free)
After attending the course in 2016 and learning a whole bunch I decided to contact Ron to look at improving the setup and handling of my car. I will admit at this point that the initial time frames proposed were pushed back a few times, as it seems that my job fell into that year range he put up in his post. For me that was no real issue, I was still racing my car and wasn't waiting desperately. However, once it was all done and sorted, I came to the following years workshop and got my parts at the same time and took as much back with me to Oz as I could pack in my bags. To be honest, to date, I haven't done all the modifications outlined, mostly due to a lack of time to implement them(It is hard to stop racing to do upgrades). The modifications that I have done so far have all netted big improvements with no issues. I got all the parts that I paid for and all the services too. I can say that there were no negatives to the overall experience other then the time it took to start it all.

It is great to see a response to this situation. Who knows whether it will clear the air or just stir more ****, but something is better then nothing and it is an open forum for all to speak/converse from all sides. Best of luck to everyone and I hope Greg does get the car finished how he wants it and actually gives it a fang around the track! We are all here because of racing, its what turns the world around....atleast for us motorsport orientated people anyway :)

[GregWeld]

I will only say this one more time.... I would have never mentioned my issues over MY car... or even one or two guys that came forward and told me of THEIR stories. There's not one or two people out there -- it's ridiculous how many peoples projects are a mess because of big promises and failed delivery.

If you want to hang your money and project out with Ron Sutton Racing -- be my guest. I did -- I got so burned it's stupid.

Consider this -- I loaned him $80 grand to start his brake business (not a dime paid back) .... had him in my corner for 5 years every time I tracked my cars..... Had him build me a $200,000 track car.... In fewer words - he was my friend and I was there to help him and his business.

It's real easy when all of a sudden you get exposed - to come (weeks later) and cry and say "so sorry". Those are all just WORDS..... same BS words used for months and months while owing people parts and so called expertise. I had called him on this many times over the last couple years - about talking less and delivering more.... because I was hearing rumblings of people waiting and waiting for parts and tech.

There are two mods and several other people that know EXACTLY what went on in the background before I finally became convinced that other people were experiencing real pain with their projects because of RON. I was the SLOW FUSE not the fast blow fuse. Too much hype and self selling -- too little real actual delivery. The boards don't take people out based on one or two whiners.....

You make up your own minds.... good luck!

[jlwdvm]

I posted in Greg's original thread about my positive experiences with Ron, but maybe my post count isn't high enough to matter, or maybe my opinion doesn't matter because I didn't drop $200K on my car.

From a business owner that has almost 1000 online reviews: there are always 2 sides to every story. The previous Dr. I bought my clinic from summed it up like this... Rule #1: Try to please everybody
Rule #2: You can't please everybody.

Will I ask Ron for advice in the future...Yes.
Will I make purchases from his store in the future...Yes

I value my own opinion and experiences more that anyone else's. Even if I didn't drop $200K on my car.

Maybe this will help my street cred https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/102040-1969-Firebird-TA-clone-track-car-build?highlight=
Almost 75,000 views and 250 posts!

[jlwdvm]

My previous post made more sense before OLDFLM deleted his.

[Tinker]

I hesitated to get involved with this in the first place, but because I did post a reply stating that I had never received my coilover springs I need to finish the story.
Last week Ron did contact me with my suspension calculations. No less than five emails each way on a Friday night. In my error, I gave him some bad intel so I tried calling him Saturday. He answered right away and we spent nearly half an hour working out the new spring rates. I received the first two springs Wednesday and the other two are coming.
Just stating the facts here, nothing more.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Just wanted to post my opinion. I'm definitely am not on either side of this matter because frankly only 2 people know the real truth of what REALLY happened (besides the obvious) .

I'm glad you finally posted up your side of the story Ron.

The problem I see is that there's implications of many others who have had major issues with their build but have yet to post up anything? Ron was deleted as a vendor but with no explanation to us other members as to why besides Greg's build thread? I understand Greg's build issues being big but what other reason? Once again, not taking sides I just want to know what other reasons I guess. I understand he may have waited too long to post his side but he did come on here to try and patch things up. To what extent only Ron knows.

I've never had any problems with my orders or services so I can't speak any negatives. I'm just a customer. I've never ate dinner with Ron, never flew him anywhere exotic, never bought anything over the top from him but
He's always answered my questions, sent me all orders right away and always got back to me by phone or email in a timely manner with questions I've had.

I hope this matter can be resolved and both parties can move forward.

Sometimes we all spread ourselves thin as husbands,parents or friends but its how we move forward to correct mistakes or improve on ourselves that matters.

[RidiCat69]

Just wanted to post my opinion. I'm definitely am not on either side of this matter because frankly only 2 people know the real truth of what REALLY happened (besides the obvious) .

I'm glad you finally posted up your side of the story Ron.

The problem I see is that there's implications of many others who have had major issues with their build but have yet to post up anything? Ron was deleted as a vendor but with no explanation to us other members as to why besides Greg's build thread? I understand Greg's build issues being big but what other reason? Once again, not taking sides I just want to know what other reasons I guess. I understand he may have waited too long to post his side but he did come on here to try and patch things up. To what extent only Ron knows.

I've never had any problems with my orders or services so I can't speak any negatives. I'm just a customer. I've never ate dinner with Ron, never flew him anywhere exotic, never bought anything over the top from him but
He's always answered my questions, sent me all orders right away and always got back to me by phone or email in a timely manner with questions I've had.

I hope this matter can be resolved and both parties can move forward.

Sometimes we all spread ourselves thin as husbands,parents or friends but its how we move forward to correct mistakes or improve on ourselves that matters.

+1


I too am just a customer, and have good good dealings with Ron in advice, services, and parts over several years. I am sorry to hear of the outcome of Greg's build, but I'm not ready to rule out someone who has contributed so much without first allowing time for redemption. People make mistakes, and should be allowed to fix them.

[GregWeld]

I'm seriously concerned with some reading skills exhibited here.

I've stated about 50 times - maybe more - that THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY BUILD.


Can any of you recall this last couple weeks news about the Catholic priests? Did ANY OF YOU shake your head and think to yourself -- WHY DIDN'T THESE VICTIMS COME FORWARD at the time..... and possibly saved other lives from these heinous offenses? Why does it take ONE PERSON to finally say something and then all the floodgates open and all the other people come streaming out with their horror stories.

Were these priests doing "good" for the church when not buggering little children? Sure they were. Were they promoted and liked by many? Of course they were.

Should the church be accountable - if information comes forward that they knew of the offensive actions and looked the other way? I think you'd agree they're certainly every bit as guilty because of their actions - and allowing the offenses to continue. Harming more and more with each passing year.

People went out of their way to get in touch with me. Some probably don't realize I actually know other people that aren't on Lateral-G. Some people that are considered the pillars of our little corner of the world..... And they shared their stories.... I think I have saved 42 PM's. That's probably more PM's in a week than I've received since I joined. NOT ONE GOOD ONE.... People don't share happy -- they share the bad. Nobody in 5 years has sent me a happy PM saying -- GEE EVERYTHING IS JUST SWELL.... Meaning -- I don't hear from people. I get asked about my cancer treatment in PM's. But nobody sent me any "heads up I'm having a problem with...." The 42 PM's came flooding in after the news about my car started to make the back alleys we all have with each other... (Edited this. In an effort to clear up my thought/statement here)

Can you still remember reading my intro here -- about the mess the priests have made?

Trust me when I tell you -- this was never about me.... I'm just the last guy in line that took the biggest hit. I AM REALLY JUST THE GUY THAT HAD THE BALLS TO COME FORWARD ONCE I HEARD THE STORIES.

I've said it enough. If you like Ron Sutton and you want to continue to seek his info and parts. I don't care. It means nothing to me. That's your decision. I like Summitt you like Jeg's....

But now everything I read from this guy - is a dance. A dance around part of the facts.... errors of omission....and it always comes back to SELLING. If you knew why Kurt Urban moved to Scoggins-Dickey you'd be able to read between the lines -- He was not there, and he just got there - Why drop his name in to the story? Selling? People LIKE KURT URBAN. Yeah - he's there NOW.... but he wasn't there when the catalog was created.... wasn't there when my motor was built.... so why is that now important? It's a suck in.... his name connection sucks you in.

The time frame was not an issue -- never was -- but it suddenly is because it's a very convenient escape from the truth - covers everything doesn't it -- "we were rushing for poor poor Greg". That's about 35% correct. I was willing to move any date any time.... and asked REPEATEDLY about "can you make the date or should I move it?" The track rental date was easily moved... When it was chosen - it was chosen with full knowledge. PERIOD. Again -- that was nothing in stone. It was just a date to try to make. When the car was obviously behind -- I asked several times about killing the date or moving it.... and the date was never a problem. Now then when it got much closer - again many discussions -- and I allowed and agreed to -- the body being rough - the wrap not done - the chassis not "finished" and if we did that - we could make "the date". Okay - I've built lots of cars - and frankly when I thought about it - the body in white was better for testing anyway - you wouldn't feel bad about taking a sawzall to it. Ditto the chassis.

I have all the emails and texts discussing all of these dates and details (I'm extremely detailed and have nothing better to do). I'll save 'em, and did save them all along - A: as a reference B: I've done a few business deals in my lifetime

Okay -- yes -- TIME is extremely important to me -- but that's "larger picture" stuff... and yes -- it was "time sensitive" because of my "maybe" poor health (right now I'm in excellent health). But we've had so so many detailed discussions about that -- and my reasons, and how to think about that etc - nobody knew better than Ron - my friend - a guy I loaned money to on a handshake - a guy that has been instrumental in my driving and cars - a guy I wanted to succeed in the worst way. WHY? Because he was good for US. Because we needed a guy like this. NOBODY TRUSTED HIM MORE THAN I. Nobody discussed business with him more than I. Put deals together. Pushed his career. I liked him - I needed him - we needed him. I could try to do good things for him.

But === I can not - ever - never - be the guy that knew something that should be known by all, and didn't come forward. My balls are tiny, but not that tiny.

[GregWeld]

I get the "perception" is that I'm some kind of big shot in the inner circle of life at Lateral-G.

I too - would look at the length of membership and number of posts and think - Dude is a somebody.

I can assure you that I don't know the first thing about what goes on at Lateral-G other than the posts / threads I care to participate in. I don't ask what's going on - don't care - I don't gossip.... I'm on a Text train with two "mods" -- by the way - I'm not a mod - was never asked to be one - wouldn't be one if asked... WE do not discuss Lat-G. WE don't gossip about Lat-G. Are they considered to be some of my closest confidants and friends? 100%

I don't know if they were in the decision to ban/strip/censure Ron Suttons BUSINESS. I didn't ask - I didn't influence - it was never mentioned. I frankly don't care. That's Lat-G's business. I don't want to know. When I text or email with Jody - it's about my health - and HE asks me how I'm doing.... that's IT! I can tell you that I forwarded a bunch of info to him .... without any discussion from me -- just a "well.... here's another one...." or a "FYI".

I kept the confidence of the people that shared with me. That's their choice - their decision. I'm a pretty sharing guy.... I share WAY MORE than I should.... Way more. Why? Because I guess I think I have something to offer that I'd like to share with you all. Try to help when I can. Shut up and say nothing when I know nothing. You've never seen me post in suspension threads.... I don't post in ANY LS discussion.... I read - but I don't post. Why? Because I really don't know a thing about it. If you're welding or bending metal - or doing brakes - or having a timing issue with a SBC (NOT FORD).... I'll try to help. Plumbing? Oh yeah - something I love. Wiring? Yeah - as long as it's not some new fangled wiz bang auto dimmer door closer.... but if it's straight up switches and relays and 12V = I'll try to help.

What am I trying to say? I'm saying that I was as surprised as you all when someone told me they'd (Lat-G) taken down Sutton Advertising. I'm not shocked by that - given what I now know.... but I thought there might be a lot more hemming and hawing... and dancing around.... and "well that guy complains all the time about everyone" kind of talk.

Ya know what I heard repeatedly in mails and calls..... "I could have told you that a long time ago".... and "you should talk to so and so OMG...." and "I wouldn't drive that because of this or that".... and "you have no idea how much I had to redo of his stuff" and "you know that's just a Joe's Racing piece at twice the price, right".

OKAY --- that's my very last post ever on the subject. For me it's case closed - I've said all I have to say about that <Gump>

[Build-It-Break-it]

Not trying to offend you Greg at all. Not my intentions. My reading skills are up to par ( if directed at me). I don't watch the news at all. I'm just not into it. I don't read news articles either so the priest story I didn't know happened. I'm not religious either. If something happened to kids that's sickening and my heart goes out to them.

My post wasn't directed towards you if that's how it seems but more so about the dozens of people who only messaged you, that only you know the stories to but no one has stepped up besides you. I'm curious about the others out there. Once again not trying to offend anyone or take any sides.

I'm more curious as to why zero people have said anything? 5 years of complaints ( if i read correctly) but not 1 person said anything? Not saying it can't be true but wondering why just you posting? 5 years of you knowing the wrong doings of Ron but posting now about them after 5 years of 42 pms (if that's all within this week disregard)?

Not saying your lying at all but why wait 5 years and then promote his business that was bad 5 years ago?

I hope this all isn't coming off smug because it's a bad situation all around. Im honestly just sitting back waiting for more information from anyone else that's had issues to step up and say something. No sides taken and no harm meant with my posts.

Like most I only believe half of what I read on the forums.

[GregWeld]

Not trying to offend you Greg at all. Not my intentions. My reading skills are up to par ( if directed at me). I don't watch the news at all. I'm just not into it. I don't read news articles either so the priest story I didn't know happened. I'm not religious either. If something happened to kids that's sickening and my heart goes out to them.

My post wasn't directed towards you if that's how it seems but more so about the dozens of people who only messaged you, that only you know the stories to but no one has stepped up besides you. I'm curious about the others out there. Once again not trying to offend anyone or take any sides.

I'm more curious as to why zero people have said anything? 5 years of complaints but not 1 person said anything? Not saying it can't be true but wondering why just you posting? 5 years of you knowing the wrong doings of Ron but posting now about them after 5 years of 42 pms?

Not saying your lying at all but why wait 5 years and then promote his business that was bad 5 years ago?

I hope this all isn't coming off smug because it's a bad situation all around. Im honestly just sitting back waiting for more information from anyone else that's had issues to step up and say something. No sides taken and no harm meant with my posts.

Like most I only believe half of what I read on the forums.


I must not be able to communicate very well.... could be my meds.

I am saying that for 5 years I've been his best man! I didn't know anything until a couple weeks ago -- when people started to talk (behind my back) about my car --- and it's problems -- and that is the start point for me knowing anything "bad" about Ron Sutton Racing. I have a couple friends that had to wait extremely long times for parts and info - but I chalk that up to the usual stuff - busy - not really that important right now - "I'm working on it" -- "I'm writing a book".....

[Build-It-Break-it]

I must not be able to communicate very well.... could be my meds.

I am saying that for 5 years I've been his best man! I didn't know anything until a couple weeks ago -- when people started to talk (behind my back) about my car --- and it's problems -- and that is the start point for me knowing anything "bad" about Ron Sutton Racing. I have a couple friends that had to wait extremely long times for parts and info - but I chalk that up to the usual stuff - busy - not really that important right now - "I'm working on it" -- "I'm writing a book".....

Got it, I read it wrong then Greg. Disregard my post. Thank you for clearing that up.

I read
"Nobody in 5 years has sent me a happy PM saying -- GEE EVERYTHING IS JUST SWELL.... ".

So I thought "man 5 years of bad service that he knew" my apologies.

[camcojb]

I'm more curious as to why zero people have said anything?

Being that I've been around here for a while I can say this is very common. There have been vendors removed with many complaints where not a single one of the affected members wanted to go public. Some didn't want the drama or attacks by the fans of said vendor. Others I felt were embarrassed by what happened. I've had some well known names in our segment of the industry that didn't want to be associated with the issue, didn't want to possibly take a reputation hit. Whatever the reason it's their right to go public or not. I appreciate Greg's willingness to share and take the hit for doing so.

Ultimately I made the decision to remove him, felt like I had enough information to not drag it out further.

[tcgrmt]

Well I’ve been building my car for over 24 years. I have used alot of RACE parts in my build. I know that there are certain times of the year that companies/shops (who build RACE parts) are swamped and deliveries go into the months. Just as I have busy times of the year in my business when there aren’t enough hours in a day.
I don’t know Greg but have been told by a trusted few he’s a good guy. prayers to you Greg and your health.
I have a customer that everyone told me not to work for.....you’ll never get paid. I knew the owner and never had an issue with him. Now 5 years later he’s my biggest customer and never an invoice over 30 days.
I trust my own intuition over those quick to tell me the bad in somebody.
Since working with Ron I have had people tell me some crazy stories (second hand no less) of things Ron supposely told them to do this or that. I have been to Ron’s workshops and have learned alot, enough to know what was being said was BS. All of these stories come from other so called suspension experts.
I don’t mind waiting for best parts or advice, just means I have to plan alittle better.
I’ll continue to use Ron for his services/parts and as more people drive my car i am sure more will be looking to Ron for help with their projects.
As far as Lateral G is concerned, the only reason I came here was to read Ron’s posts.

[mfain]

As far as Lateral G is concerned, the only reason I came here was to read Ron’s posts.

Me too.

Edit: To be a little more accurate, I do occasionally read some of the technical posts of others, but for the last 5 years I have returned to Lateral-g primarily to check on Ron's posts for the technical information they provide.

Pappy

[Peter McMahon]

I don’t know for a fact anything that happened, but as far as I understand the removal of the vendor on this site and others was due to much more than just this one build. I would hope if this is the case that the site supervisors used facts. I have to assume they did as I think this build is only on this site?

[GregWeld]

I don’t know for a fact anything that happened, but as far as I understand the removal of the vendor on this site and others was due to much more than just this one build. I would hope if this is the case that the site supervisors used facts. I have to assume they did as I think this build is only on this site?



Sadly he's on many other sites pimping like he always has....

I'm not going around to bash him - or tell the story on the other sites. Frankly, he was already "done" to the guys that know anything - they never used him to begin with..... and it was funny how many guys from other sites got on the phone and called me to share.

Seems the only people that used him - were people like me - that don't care to really know all about suspensions (I just like driving and changing the oil) -- or that leaned on him for their projects and just drank the kool aid. People that actually know way more about this stuff to begin with -- knew the true story without ever having to use his stuff. Lucky them!! I just wished they'd have told me!!

BY THE WAY -- the pick up points etc on the SpeedTech stuff he did -- is AWESOME. It's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DESIGN. My '65 is AWESOME... so he does know tuning and brakes etc. But that's not building entire cars -- or knowing all there is to know about all these systems. Or even being able to look at wiring and say - That's not how it should be run..... Stick to what you're good at... but DON'T DESIGN PARTS WITHOUT BEING AN ACTUAL ENGINEER.

I've re-read his mia culpa post here a couple times -- thought about dissecting it bit by bit and stating the truth to each BS point - backed up by emails and details.... But what's the point of wasting so much effort now.

I love the part when he NOW says --- "I'm not a car builder....." Really? Got his catalog?? He's the baddest, fastest, most storied car builder race winner of all time! LOL

Now that the car is a disaster --- he says he RELIED ON OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING -- the body (his choice / his source) - The Oiling (his bestest buddies ever)? Knows nothing about it. Didn't seek help until Sunday afternoon. The overheating?? THEY steered him wrong.... The builder? His choice not mine.... Never done this before.... (no kidding!).

My builder of choice -- wouldn't touch the project without about doubling the price Sutton was paying for that labor/product to be completed (about 10% of the retail build price)... and said no way they could do that much in that little time and have it be RIGHT.... Gee! Who'd a thunk that they were right on!!

Funny how he pimps himself as the greatest living race car guy ever -- but the one time he had to deliver - it's a disaster.... unsafe suspension - oil puking, wire melting, overheating POS.... It's all someone else's fault. So then -- what do you really know about building race cars?? Or even managing a build?


Why am I not giving him another chance to fix it? You had to be there (4 days worth).... to see the monkey f'n the football.... and then when I have guys telling me I'm going to die running that suspension --- and others saying even worse.... and your excuse (NOW) is..... it wasn't me..... LOL -- YEAH NO -- you only get to screw me once - it wasn't that good for me to go for another round.

I (lucky me!) can afford to take it to a REAL shop (SpeedTech) and have it all redone. The suspension - the wiring - the motor - the body - the crapwrap...

I gave him all the rope anyone would ever give a guy, and more. My friends were already mad at me for letting him build the stuff they saw in the pictures... but my response is -- this is HIS BUILD -- I'm just ordering what he's got in his catalog. I drank the kool aid... I let him run with it. He just used the rope to hang himself. Now that he's choking -- it's OH SO SORRY. Sorry you finally got caught?

[tcgrmt]

Thru my years in business one thing that always throws up a red flag is anyone that spouts off on money. I heard in CA now you talked about making “x” dollars, now your spouting figures of a personal deal with Ron. Hope someone can make you happy with your car.

[GregWeld]

Thru my years in business one thing that always throws up a red flag is anyone that spouts off on money. I heard in CA now you talked about making “x” dollars, now your spouting figures of a personal deal with Ron. Hope someone can make you happy with your car.

The money part is for REFERENCE.... in other words - how tight the relationship was etc. There's a big difference in level of expectations for people at "X" level -- if they don't know what that number is - then there's little anyone could understand about that. In other words -- this is a $200K build -- not a $50K build. It's wasn't a budget build - so what did you think you were going to get on that budget. The numbers by the way - were published as advertising by Ron.

Your kool aid glass is empty.... better get a refill.

[tcgrmt]

The more I read the more I am inclined to call bull****. Sorry I just call it as I see it. Your trying to destory someones reputation and business. First off this $80k loan on a hand shake (didn’t see where Ron disclosed that publicly), I trust my two business partners as much as my family but I still have a buy sell agreement, just good business. All these other peoplle that contacted you about problems with Ron, why didn’t they warn you at the start of the build??? It wasn’t a secret build.
After the test n tune did you sit down with Ron and discuss the problems? Did you give Ron a chance to answer all the allegations your friends claim before you went publc?
Just saying Greg....you can call my a kool aid drinker, but maybe I am just not of one of those buddies blowing smoke up your ass

[camcojb]

The more I read the more I am inclined to call bull****. Sorry I just call it as I see it. Your trying to destory someones reputation and business. First off this $80k loan on a hand shake (didn’t see where Ron disclosed that publicly), I trust my two business partners as much as my family but I still have a buy sell agreement, just good business. All these other peoplle that contacted you about problems with Ron, why didn’t they warn you at the start of the build??? It wasn’t a secret build.
After the test n tune did you sit down with Ron and discuss the problems? Did you give Ron a chance to answer all the allegations your friends claim before you went publc?
Just saying Greg....you can call my a kool aid drinker, but maybe I am just not of one of those buddies blowing smoke up your ass
Be honest, you're a personal friend of Rons. You even list him as your referral to this site, and all your previous posts are involved with him. That's fine, but that makes your posts somewhat biased IMO.

I am the one who removed Ron, and not just because of Greg. I was contacted by several guys who had problems with getting parts and having major issues with his suspension design to the point of scrapping the suspension and starting all over. And a couple of these guys know what they're doing, not a case of the customer screwing it up which definitely happens.

You are defending your buddy and attacking Greg, but everything Greg posted is true. I personally liked Ron. But in cases like these where numerous people have similar claims we have to make difficult decisions which always lean towards what's best for our members. Even though it cost me money out of pocket I didn't feel like I could keep him as a vendor on my site.

[DBasher]

The more I read the more I am inclined to call bull****.

You need to read better

Sorry I just call it as I see it. First off this $80k loan on a hand shake (didn’t see where Ron disclosed that publicly)

I’m sure if you ask Ron he’ll tell you he was loaned money.

After the test n tune did you sit down with Ron and discuss the problems?

Which test and tune? The one in June where the mechanical problems first showed up? Or the second one weeks later where nothing mechanically was fixed?

Just saying Greg....you can call my a kool aid drinker, but maybe I am just not of one of those buddies blowing smoke up your ass
Kool aid drinker or not you need better comprehension skills, between the two threads it’s been explained pretty clear.

I’d be happy to provide the cliff notes, in crayon if you prefer. :sieg:

[tcgrmt]

Personal friend of Ron’s, I guess. He has provided me services but I don’t get Chrismas cards from him. Lol...last time I texted him he asked who i was.
Aren’t you a friend of Greg’s? Why does that matter?
I guess the G in lateral G stands for Greg.
Like I declared up front I only came to this forum to read Ron’s posts on suspensions and learn all could. I can’t afford someone to build my car and I do all my own work.
I think BOTH are at fault here and if I was Greg I would be pissed too. But to publicly destory someone like this is not right. I’d be saying something no matter who it was. Greg's signature speaks volumes.
You can ban me too since I am not on the Greg train.

[raustinss]

My best friend, since we were 15 ... now 40 doesnt send me a Christmas card either ...

[mfain]

Kool aid drinker or not you need better comprehension skills, between the two threads it’s been explained pretty clear.

I’d be happy to provide the cliff notes, in crayon if you prefer. :sieg:

No, it has not been explained clearly. We can see Greg's issues, but I suspect there was something personal that lit the fuse, or Greg would have given Ron a chance to fix the problems - but that's not our issue to worry about. There are all sorts of accusations and allegations, undocumented and mostly passed second hand to a body of moderators that unilaterally made their decision to chop-block Ron. We, the forum members don't really know what the allegations are, other than a couple of vague side comments in the posts. The excuse that some (all except Greg???) refuse to come forward is a bit lame. We don't need to know "who", but we would, however, like to hear the allegations so we can judge for ourselves the severity of the problem, if there is a problem. And Ron should be given an opportunity to address/refute specific complaints. That would be doing your forum members a service. In the big scheme of things, whether RSRT is listed as a vendor on Lateral-G is of little consequence. Those of us that use his products and services will continue to do so until and if we find a valid, verifiable reason not to do so.

Pappy

Skip the crayons - my eyesight is good enough to read the fine print.

[Flash68]

Personal friend of Ron’s, I guess. He has provided me services but I don’t get Chrismas cards from him. Lol...last time I texted him he asked who i was.
Aren’t you a friend of Greg’s? Why does that matter?
I guess the G in lateral G stands for Greg.
Like I declared up front I only came to this forum to read Ron’s posts on suspensions and learn all could. I can’t afford someone to build my car and I do all my own work.
I think BOTH are at fault here and if I was Greg I would be pissed too. But to publicly destory someone like this is not right. I’d be saying something no matter who it was. Greg's signature speaks volumes.
You can ban me too since I am not on the Greg train.

Rob,

I believe G stands for gravity.

Greg Weld is friends with probably hundreds of people - maybe more - on Lateral G.

If you came around more and didn't just post at the request of Ron Sutton (it's utterly obvious by the timeline and posts following his creation of this thread), you would likely be his friend too. He's a good man in many ways.

But he doesn't wave the ban hammer around here, I can assure you.

Have a nice day.

[Flash68]

We don't need to know "who", but we would, however, like to hear the allegations so we can judge for ourselves the severity of the problem, if there is a problem. And Ron should be given an opportunity to address/refute specific complaints.

This is a privately owned forum and while its members are of the greatest interest they will not be potentially put at risk by endorsing a vendor and allowing them to market here when complaints and issues are too numerous and severe to ignore. Hopefully you will put some trust in Lateral G that they are looking out for the masses properly vs putting advertising dollars in the owner's pocket. This forum has always done that - and you can't say that about all car forums that's for certain.

This is not a jury trial. And this is not a publicly held company. And this is a not a witch hunt. No rash decisions were made here. Not on Greg's part - and not on Lateral-G's part.

But we certainly hope you and others see that Lateral G errs on the side of caution when it comes to letting vendors continue to market here to the members.

In the big scheme of things, whether RSRT is listed as a vendor on Lateral-G is of little consequence.

Well it sure is to Lateral G. It is an implied endorsement of one's products/services. Pretty simple concept there.

Those of us that use his products and services will continue to do so until and if we find a valid, verifiable reason not to do so.

Pappy



And you should. Even Greg said you make up your mind and do what is best for you. No one is telling anyone NOT to do business with Ron Sutton. But his selling is no longer endorsed by Lateral G.

[camcojb]

You can ban me too since I am not on the Greg train.
Who else have I banned? :headscratch:

[GregWeld]

Who else have I banned? :headscratch:



Can you please ban Charley?


Oh wait -- he's moved on to "The Military Channel".

[Build-It-Break-it]

Take this for what you will but when I was a new member with an EXTREMELY low post count I was contacted by Jody the owner of lateral g and he asked me questions over the phone about my issues with Scott mock which I posted in the feedback section .

Jody doesn't take sides I can tell you that. No matter who you are.

[Scratch]

Kool aid drinker or not you need better comprehension skills, between the two threads it’s been explained pretty clear.

I’d be happy to provide the cliff notes, in crayon if you prefer. :sieg:

No there has been nothing explained "clear".

[GregWeld]

I like the "I only come here for Ron's posts......"


Okay then. What could anyone say to that?


I come here because my FRIENDS are here. I'm interested in their lives, and their well being, and their projects, and their issues, and all the other stuff that goes with that.

Is that too many commas? LOL

[camcojb]

Can you please ban Charley?


Oh wait -- he's moved on to "The Military Channel".
If anyone deserves it... :rofl:

[DBasher]

No there has been nothing explained "clear".

What am I missing, or better yet what are y’all missing? Look at the relationship between these two for the last few years, it’s nothing but good times and helping each other out....not only with driver coaching and a rebuild of one car but business and connections. Ron hasn’t mentioned much about Greg’s help other than the friendship but I guarantee you if asked he won’t deny any of it.

Ron- how much has Greg helped you and your business since you moved to the PT world?

A car was built on an agreed upon time line, go read the first few pages of the build thread.
Both parties have agreed that the car wasn’t up to the expectations, not only the first time out but the second as well.
Ron admits fault for a bunch of things he knows nothing about...which wasn’t the story when he was pimping the track warrior brand.

HOW MUCH MORE MONEY/TIME DO YOU GIVE SOMEONE BEFORE YOU’RE THE FOOL?

So I ask, what’s not clear? Greg airing it all or Ron not knowing what he’s selling?

[mfain]

What am I missing, or better yet what are y’all missing? Look at the relationship between these two for the last few years, it’s nothing but good times and helping each other out....not only with driver coaching and a rebuild of one car but business and connections. Ron hasn’t mentioned much about Greg’s help other than the friendship but I guarantee you if asked he won’t deny any of it.

Ron- how much has Greg helped you and your business since you moved to the PT world?

A car was built on an agreed upon time line, go read the first few pages of the build thread.
Both parties have agreed that the car wasn’t up to the expectations, not only the first time out but the second as well.
Ron admits fault for a bunch of things he knows nothing about...which wasn’t the story when he was pimping the track warrior brand.

HOW MUCH MORE MONEY/TIME DO YOU GIVE SOMEONE BEFORE YOU’RE THE FOOL?

So I ask, what’s not clear? Greg airing it all or Ron not knowing what he’s selling?

We all understand that Greg and Ron have issues, but that is one customer and one vendor. I'll bet every vendor has a customer or two that had different expectations or was not on the same page. No argument. What some of us are concerned about are the implied accusations from "dozens" of un-named sources with non-specified claims. It's a lot like listening to MSNBC.

Pappy

[GregWeld]

lots of posers, wanta be's and fan bois. step up or shut up. racers would take u out back after a race and kick ur ass, wouldnt wait 2 days after an actor gave his fake performance to settle the score. keep posin, we who were there should give u an academy award. JODY FEEL FREE TO POST PEOPLES NAMES AND EMAIL ADDRESSES. BIG FISH, LITTLE POND !



Now I feel like Pappy --- I don't understand what you're saying here....

[DBasher]

We all understand that Greg and Ron have issues, but that is one customer and one vendor. I'll bet every vendor has a customer or two that had different expectations or was not on the same page. No argument. What some of us are concerned about are the implied accusations from "dozens" of un-named sources with non-specified claims. It's a lot like listening to MSNBC.

Pappy

Ron mentioned the time line that he failed to get customers what they had paid for in the time line they were told, so there’s that. I think it’s also been mentioned in other threads that the design of parts weren’t exactly what would work and changes needed to be made. If you take the time to read more than the Sutton posts you’ll be able to piece together some of the uneasiness folks have experienced.

Of course you can always change the channel.

[GregWeld]

No there has been nothing explained "clear".



Scratch -- despite your numerous PM's to me for behind the scenes info and details... you got none then - and you'll get none here.

It's been explained numerous times - if people care to share their issues - they're free to do so... OR NOT.

You might see why they'd choose not to -- just read the statements in this thread. The first time posters riding in to defend... despite not fully comprehending any of it.

I don't want to put up with it and I've been around here for a very long time and have one or two friends here and there. And the folks that also have had issues are, after reading all of this, they're thanking themselves for not joining in.

[JeffPeoples]

I have been following Ron's posts the beginning. They have been the main reason for me visiting this forum. When his first posts hit, I had just bought a full chassis from an aftermarket company (Street Rod Garage) as the basis for a serious autocross/track day car. It had beautiful welds, but was ready far later than promised, and was missing some expensive parts. Ron's posts educated me on how to measure a chassis, and what to look for that will affect performance. After doing this, I knew what I had was bogus. I got out the plasma cutter and started over with all of the suspension mounts. Then the cross members, then the frame rails. Pretty soon I had nothing left. I started fabbing some things myself, but realized that I was in over my head, and that only working most Saturdays was going to take far too long to complete the car.
I decided to give Ron a call, and we had a long talk. By this time he was selling suspension parts. I ended up buying a front clip for my chassis, and later most of a rear clip. I found a local fab shop that seemed to be a good fit (they had done King of The Hammers builds, cool!). A year or so and a lot of money later, I had to get the car back to my place due to the slow pace. The shop ended up prioritizing the quickie projects and odd jobs, to the determent of the full builds that he had on hand collecting dust. I ended up doing more work myself waiting for a good shop in Texas to get an opening, which was therapeutic, all things considered. I had been buying misc. parts (including Forgeline wheels) through Ron all along, mainly due to the expert advice he provided during the ordering process.
Were all of the things he did for me perfect? No. As I discovered an issue here or there, Ron took care of them. I noticed that responses got a little slower, but I understood his business was going through some growing pains (I knew this because he told me so). I never felt like Ron was trying to put something over on me, or that he was being dishonest in anyway. In my business, we sometimes have issues being as responsive as I would like, so I understand that "things don't always go as planned". As I am a Buick guy, I am used to waiting on parts and services for my cars. There are only about 3 good Buick engines builders in the country, and only one Buick speed parts vendor. I have waited 6 months for a set of cast aluminum valve covers, and years for engines to be built. These involve specialized, low volume, and sometimes one off parts. Just like the highly custom track toys that many of us on this site are building. Patience is a virtue in these instances.
There are many good vendors (and people) on this site, and I have met and patronized some of them (Kore3, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, Holley come to mind). What sets Ron apart is his willingness to share and educate with intricate details about suspension theories, workings, and experiences from a racing environment. Watch a race on TV and see how much real tech you can glean from the commentators. I have also attended and enjoyed Ron's seminars, and will do so again.
I hope anyone that feels they have not been treated fairly by Ron will give him a chance to take care of their issues. I believe he will.

[214Chevy]

Lose $20...no big deal
Lose $200...you're pissed
Lose $2,000...you're ready to kick some a$$
Lose $20,000..you're ready to kill a mf'er!!
Lose $200,000...we'd all understand exactly where Greg is coming from.

I say all of this to say, the people in this thread that are acting as if Greg is the bad guy would be singing a different tune if they'd lost all of their hard earned money. No matter if it was $20...$2,000 or $200,000. When one loses his money and doesn't get what he pays for, nothing else matters. It's easy for others to come here and ask or say why didn't Greg do this or that. Or did you give Ron a chance to correct this or that. If it was your $200k, would you still be as passive? I highly doubt it. Besides, not that it's super easy, but providing straight panels, a legitimate engine and for the sake of me...a decent wrap aren't what you would call difficult task if you're in this business as business owner.

[GregWeld]

Jeff --- TOTALLY AGREE 100% with your post.


Let's rehash the rehashed hash.....


Was this the first time I met Ron and I just picked up a catalog -- pointed to page 119 and ordered a car built? Kinda like ordering off Amazon right? Yeah... NO.

You've bought some parts and tech from him.... over a period of time. Hey! You know what? Me too!

You attended his seminars and learned some stuff. Hey! You know what? Me too!

Do I have lots of friends that have bought parts and tech from him? Oh yeah... several.

Have there been issues with some of that along the way. Yep. No biggie... Sh!t happens. Delays? Sure. So what. Some of the crap around here has been being worked on for years... so a couple/few months is not really a deal breaker.

For about the last 5 years (give or take doesn't matter - it's not weeks - it's not 3 months).... Ron has been paid ($3,000 plus expenses. It's in his catalog - page 400 - for those that are all uptight about discussing money) to be at every track event with me. That's usually 3 or 4 events per year. For this I got great advice - tires and brakes info and service - driving skills coaching - car management services. He took many seconds off my lap times - had my cars driving 100% - and we had fun too! He was part of the track family. Included in all the diners... introduced to all my friends. It was great.

I had him completely re-do all the suspension and brakes and wheels and everything on my '65 Mustang track car. I think with spare wheels and all the stuff - it was $30,000+ (it was more than that but who cares). I considered it a bargain. The improvement was beyond comparison. It made the car so much fun to drive. I considered him a genius!

During all of this - we talked business - we talked about who to do business with and whom I thought would be a PITA to do business with.... He mentored me - I mentored him. We had fun, and we could talk about lots of stuff, because we both like to talk.

When he wanted to develop the brake line -- and needed some help -- I didn't hesitate to be there. In fairness to Ron - I screwed him a little bit by coming down with terminal cancer during this - and because of trying to deal with that and build a new house etc - I didn't get him the money the day after we agreed to do this. It took a few months before I got off my meds etc and then I did what I said I was going to do.... So some of his stuff was probably delayed because of me. So sorry - but dying takes up some of your time. Someone else's sh!t wasn't at the top of my list. We both knew and understood this.

When some friends wanted to expand their subs and suspension offerings -- I pushed a relationship that I thought would be beneficial to all. It did - it was - it is. The product is STELLAR - WORKS - is made and manufactured by an actual manufacturer/production shop in house. It's their product - not his - he was just hired for his expertise and he has a lot of it in certain areas! What did I get out of this? Friends. I'm happy to watch the success. I am on the bottom pushing up. We need great stuff in our little corner of the world. We need great suppliers to bring us great stuff. Makes me happy! In all the years of knowing the manufacturer as personal friends - do you know how many parts and pieces and money I've spent with them? ZERO. Why? I had Ron and he ran my cars and I wasn't building a car etc. My point? I was just helping some mutual friends.

So some of you think you have this special secret sauce relationship because you're a customer, and you've spoken to Ron on the phone a few times. Great! He's a great guy. Knows about a lot of stuff we all think is some kind of "secret" (he uses that a lot).

Fast forward -- big new catalog - lots of pretty parts and stuff.... many pages devoted to "secret sauce" and how many cars have been built and how many races won and on and on. AWESOME -- here we go -- Business is on the upswing and everything is peachy. Couldn't be happier for the guy!

Hey! I have a great idea! Let's build a catalog car and we'll use this as a shining brand new super duper secret sauce example of just what you have to offer! This is going to be so much fun! I needed some fun! BAM! Wired $100K to get started - dates set - choices made - PRI show walk about to pick some parts and do a show and tell. Lots of builders there - we pointed to the good, the bad, the ugly, and talked pricing and quality and blah blah blah.....

Test and Tune day is a complete disaster... the car is the worst looking pile of crap I think I've ever seen. Excuses made and accepted. It isn't our first goat rodeo. No biggie. I've got history with the man. I've got confidence in his skills. I've heard for 5 years all the stories of racing, and disaster, and the recovery, and the winning. I think the car made 3 laps. Well - so what - that's the way this stuff goes sometimes.

The car goes back to the shop - and is supposed to be all fixedededed up and made pertty and she'll be ready to rock next time.

Next time is purposely set so we have a shop to work in (my track side shop) with a lift and tools and tire shop next door etc. We add an extra day for test and tune - so a total of 3 days. Knowing full well this isn't going to fire up and go out and be problem free. Remember the goat? Yeah the goat is well worn = it ain't our first time. Don't be a dickhead and think to yourself -- "well I've had lots of issues with my stuff so what?" At this event -- We're having the exact same issues that killed the first test and tune.... EXACTLY.... and lets add even more issues... Ron is there. The builder is there. We've now added an electronics man - and a mechanic. They've disassembled, and reassembled, this car a couple times.

The "fun" is now not fun.... as I watch the carnival unfold... But I'm excited to at least be able to see what we've created. From a distance the car is just bad to the bone. It sounds healthy. It looks MEAN. It's full of secret sauce. I have a pro driver (thank god)... and before I die - I'm going to witness the magic that's been built. YEAH NO. No magic. Just a crappy looking - embarrassing pile of crap that is known in the paddock as "the one lap Mustang". LOL

At the end of day one (this is really day two of the car history) I told Sutton in no uncertain terms --- if the car doesn't make first call and run all day -- pack your Sh!t and get out of here. OH YEAH I'M FIRED UP BY NOW. My dream is a pile of junk and an extremely embarrassing pile at that.

Well -- the sh!t show continues day two. My buddies that are with me are ready to take them all out back and pound the crap out of them (not literally). They want him fired on the spot. Walk the plank. We even made plans to do that - and drive down to Sonoma and watch the NorCal Shelby Nationals.... rather than watch another day of rinse and repeat clown show and oil wiping and cluster F'n. I resisted that - and I defended him and I held them back.

Did we "win" -- yeah. But what does that really mean?? In NASA TTU -- if you could go out and run ONE LAP and post the fastest time of the day. That's a win. Would you be happy with that win. A little bit. Shows the car has potential -- what it really shows is what a pro driver like Benny Moon can do with a pile of crap. He could go out - warm up - blast two laps - and bring it in for repairs.

That became a "strategy". Clean up in aisle 3!! Thrash - bandaid - clean up - run two laps - repeat.

Day 3 -- same sh!t different day. Another one lap "win". Sorry folks - this isn't winning.... Was to Sutton and crew. Wasn't to the 7 or 8 guys that are witnessing this secret sauce.

So --- to those of you that think I should give him a chance to fix it. Go pound sand.

To those that fail to grasp ALL of the situation with not just my pile, but all the other stories I've heard since.... Just shut the F up and go about your secret sauce filled day.

NOBODY HAS GIVEN MORE THAN ME.

SPENT MORE THAN ME.

DONE MORE FOR HIM THAN ME.

SPENT MORE TIME WITH HIM THAN ME.

I will have the problems fixed - but not on his budget, and not with the clueless people that created all the BS in the first place. If you weren't a part of it - no amount of explanation would suffice.

[FETorino]

There is one guy who owns this mess, ONE, and his name isn't Greg; well technically he does own an oily mess but more on that later.

A quick grab of facts from the 70 pages of build thread. Putting things in writing is neat isn't it.

Preston, you are spot on in many ways.

This Wide-Body 70 Fastback Mustang body did not exist before this. But in my 35+ years of racing & building race industry relationships ... I've learned who can do what ... and do it well ... versus those that are full of bulls@#$.


Normally it takes 3-4 months to have an entire "regular" fiberglass body ... shell, doors, front end, hood, scoop, dash, decklid, etc .... built. The error we made was thinking we could build a full custom widened car ... with rocker skirts, flush glass, wicked air dam & hood scoop blended ... in the same time. We didn't. It took 6 months for the shell & the rest will be 7 months.

So it shortened the time we have to build the car to 4 months. Most people would be panic'd. But not my crew. This is old hat to us.


The target is to be running a private test day on track at the end of June. We got this. :)



Kinda funny, or sad reading that first quote now.

We got this; or not so much; even with a do over a month later.
No mystery on the timeline. No concern either; even time for a trip to Yosemite. Your posts then we're cavalier and Boastful.
Greg wasn't pushing you to the deadline but you were pushing the sales hype of completing the build in that time frame.
It would have been a huge win to pull it off but it was your gamble and you flamed out, so own it.
Seems like you WERE a car builder; what changed? You should be more clear on what you were, what you professed to be and what you actually are.

Some of you may not have realized on our shake down day the car wasn't ready to race or run many laps because the interior tin wasn't sealed & the exhaust wasn't thermal barrier coated.

The cockpit needs to be fully sealed from the engine bay & fuel cell area. We use a 3M Fire Retardant Sealer good up to 2000°.

The Mustang comes apart late this week to go to powder coat. In our Track-Warrior cars like Greg's ... the steel floor, firewall & bulkhead/rear deck sheet metal are welded to the chassis ... and get powder coated along with the chassis & cage assembly. When it goes back together for final assembly, will utilize the 3M Fire Retardant Sealer on every seam under the car, at the firewall & at the rear bulkhead & decklid sheet metal. This prevents C0², smoke, oil, fire, etc from entering into the cockpit.

I'm outlining this important step, because many of you already have, or will, modify the sheet metal in your builds & NEED TO KNOW it's critical to seal it & what to use. It's NOT OK to leave any seam unsealed. It's unsafe.


The car will go back together later this month & get ready to go run the NASA event at Thunderhill Raceway in Willows California on Aug 4-5.

Our driver Benny Moon is super talented, but hasn't been in a real race car is many years, so he'll need to shake off the rust as we work up to speed.



Benny seems to be a great guy. Definitely talented. I'm not sure why Ron put his life at risk over the course of 4 track days on two separate weekends because the cockpit wasn't even close to sealed.

I'm sure a lot of people would miss Benny. Your opinion on sealing, just reminding you of it; it shouldn't be your opinion only when convenient.:headscratch:

It seems the marketing aspect of getting a wrap and powder coat on the car so it would photograph well, even if in person it was somewhat below standard, was priority one.

I don't think it's entirely fair to some of the members of Rons crew who genuinely seem to be good guys, albeit NOT engine builders or mechanics that understood how to go about diagnosing and fixing the oiling issue with the car, that they are being dragged down by Rons ego and mismanagement of this build.

Ron got it partially right in his post about owning the mess he made of this build. He certainly didn't sell his failure as hard as he sells his parts. He certainly didn't accept the responsibility like he accepts praise.

He didn't portray accurately how much he oversold his ability to put together a team and manage a project and how much HE really didn't know about the motor and it's oiling system or dry sump oiling in general. The first day was Friday and the dry sump manufacturer was within driving distance and I'm sure available for a call. It could only be his ego that kept that from happening.

I like to think Ron was a decent guy who was the victim of his own hype and got caught up in a suspension god complex.

Part of it may have been wanting to do the right thing and making commitments he knew he couldn't follow through on. I know that happened to me. Ron didn't steal from me but I mistakenly waited for a piece from him that he should have just said straight up I would need to make,or if I wasn't willing to make, he'd take back the part.

Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with returning a prat that really didn't work and hoped I'd go away.

At the time I thought it was the first scenario. Now I'm leaning towards the second.

In the end HE not only ruined Gregs build but also dragged some guys trying to do the right thing through the mud. I was pretty disappointed in how Ron acted twords Greg but I am just as disappointed about him putting some of his guys in a position where they were in over their head and set up for failure. I don't think they deserve the bad press for Rons BS.

For Christs sake Ron, take responsibility, fall on your sword and be faithful to your guys who genuinely tried to mop up your mess (mainly oil with a hint of Burt wire). Don't drag them down with you.

As one of the people there I had no ill will twords the crew; some of us may have, but honestly it seemed all of us, as hands on guys (+Dave), were just frustrated with the lack of a proper game plan. This shouldn't reflect on most of those people who work hard and can deliver a good product within their own field of specialty. I have a great gear set up in my race car thanks to Boris. The car wasn't total ****, there was some nice work on the car. Personally I just wanted to call time out and give the crew a new play to run rather than watching them repeat the same drill and expect a different result.

Seriously Ron. Take a step back and really address what you are doing wrong. It's not a Frank type of integrity issue but it is an integrity issue; it's an ownership of responsibility integrity issue. Accept it and fix it. Then you have something to offer people.

[GregWeld]

After all the info that had flowed to me regarding “less than stellar parts and services” ...... a friend of our Lat-G community found this.

Same pattern of “marketing” vs facts.


https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/2015/12/03/in_re_ronald_david_sutton_and_kimberly_ann_sutton_ 1.pdf

[Peter McMahon]

When you getting your 80g’s back!

[214Chevy]

After all the info that had flowed to me regarding “less than stellar parts and services” ...... a friend of our Lat-G community found this.

Same pattern of “marketing” vs facts.


https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/2015/12/03/in_re_ronald_david_sutton_and_kimberly_ann_sutton_ 1.pdf

Wow!! This thing is getting juicer by the post...I mean episode. It's like a great TV show where you can't wait until next week to see what happens. :popcorn2::popcorn2:

[GregWeld]

When you getting your 80g’s back!



He said he was going to repay me! I'm sure of it!! Everything else he's said has been spot on!

LOL

[GregWeld]

Wow!! This thing is getting juicer by the post...I mean episode. It's like a great TV show where you can't wait until next week to see what happens. :popcorn2::popcorn2:


You're only seeing about 10% of what I'm working on.... It's going to get MUCH better.... Well.... better depends on which side you're on.

[Che70velle]

This “enlightenment” reiterates the reason why Greg brought the issues to light, to begin with. Greg being the standup guy he is, was looking out for his friends here, and potential future “mistakes”. I’m certain that had Greg known then what he knows now, this thread wouldn’t exist.
I’ve seen many shirts, license plates, etc. that read “Friends don’t let Friends Drive Fords”. While I have nothing against fords...I’ve owned several...I do have friends that are worth protecting, and standing up for. So does Greg.
Sounds like we’re still in the shallow end of this mess...

[Flash68]

There is one guy who owns this mess, ONE, and his name isn't Greg; well technically he does own an oily mess but more on that later.

A quick grab of facts from the 70 pages of build thread. Putting things in writing is neat isn't it.



Kinda funny, or sad reading that first quote now.

We got this; or not so much; even with a do over a month later.
No mystery on the timeline. No concern either; even time for a trip to Yosemite. Your posts then we're cavalier and Boastful.
Greg wasn't pushing you to the deadline but you were pushing the sales hype of completing the build in that time frame.
It would have been a huge win to pull it off but it was your gamble and you flamed out, so own it.
Seems like you WERE a car builder; what changed? You should be more clear on what you were, what you professed to be and what you actually are.



Benny seems to be a great guy. Definitely talented. I'm not sure why Ron put his life at risk over the course of 4 track days on two separate weekends because the cockpit wasn't even close to sealed.

I'm sure a lot of people would miss Benny. Your opinion on sealing, just reminding you of it; it shouldn't be your opinion only when convenient.:headscratch:

It seems the marketing aspect of getting a wrap and powder coat on the car so it would photograph well, even if in person it was somewhat below standard, was priority one.

I don't think it's entirely fair to some of the members of Rons crew who genuinely seem to be good guys, albeit NOT engine builders or mechanics that understood how to go about diagnosing and fixing the oiling issue with the car, that they are being dragged down by Rons ego and mismanagement of this build.

Ron got it partially right in his post about owning the mess he made of this build. He certainly didn't sell his failure as hard as he sells his parts. He certainly didn't accept the responsibility like he accepts praise.

He didn't portray accurately how much he oversold his ability to put together a team and manage a project and how much HE really didn't know about the motor and it's oiling system or dry sump oiling in general. The first day was Friday and the dry sump manufacturer was within driving distance and I'm sure available for a call. It could only be his ego that kept that from happening.

I like to think Ron was a decent guy who was the victim of his own hype and got caught up in a suspension god complex.

Part of it may have been wanting to do the right thing and making commitments he knew he couldn't follow through on. I know that happened to me. Ron didn't steal from me but I mistakenly waited for a piece from him that he should have just said straight up I would need to make,or if I wasn't willing to make, he'd take back the part.

Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with returning a prat that really didn't work and hoped I'd go away.

At the time I thought it was the first scenario. Now I'm leaning towards the second.

In the end HE not only ruined Gregs build but also dragged some guys trying to do the right thing through the mud. I was pretty disappointed in how Ron acted twords Greg but I am just as disappointed about him putting some of his guys in a position where they were in over their head and set up for failure. I don't think they deserve the bad press for Rons BS.

For Christs sake Ron, take responsibility, fall on your sword and be faithful to your guys who genuinely tried to mop up your mess (mainly oil with a hint of Burt wire). Don't drag them down with you.

As one of the people there I had no ill will twords the crew; some of us may have, but honestly it seemed all of us, as hands on guys (+Dave), were just frustrated with the lack of a proper game plan. This shouldn't reflect on most of those people who work hard and can deliver a good product within their own field of specialty. I have a great gear set up in my race car thanks to Boris. The car wasn't total ****, there was some nice work on the car. Personally I just wanted to call time out and give the crew a new play to run rather than watching them repeat the same drill and expect a different result.

Seriously Ron. Take a step back and really address what you are doing wrong. It's not a Frank type of integrity issue but it is an integrity issue; it's an ownership of responsibility integrity issue. Accept it and fix it. Then you have something to offer people.

If you put as much time and effort on your car projects as you did this post.. man, just think what you could accomplish! :action-smiley-027:

[raustinss]

I still want a "loan" from Greg to finish my chevelle ... I mean to open my business..ya .. open a business thoughts Greg ????

[GregWeld]

I still want a "loan" from Greg to finish my chevelle ... I mean to open my business..ya .. open a business thoughts Greg ????

Some loan "pre-quals":


#1 - You must be an expert at everything

#2 - You'll have to create a phony history

#3 - You'll have to be able to stretch a 3 hour seminar to 10

#4 - You must be an expert name dropper

[Matt@BOS]

Some loan "pre-quals":


#1 - You must be an expert at everything

#2 - You'll have to create a phony history

#3 - You'll have to be able to stretch a 3 hour seminar to 10

#4 - You must be an expert name dropper

There was some major #1,2, and 4 going on at Sonoma last year. After Rob's slipping bolt, camber issue, he told Rob and I that he was going to make a star style adjuster like DSE has (which is patent pending). He told us DSE wouldn't mind since he had done so much consulting for them, oh and Roush Yates, plenty of consulting for Roush Yates!

I always wondered if I should say something. There were lots of stories, (nothing on the level we're talking now) which I'm sure you've heard by now, and a few questionable things that he said to me. It seemed like you guys had a good thing going, and I figured if it was working for you, there was no need for me to be a negative nancy.

[cluxford]

Don't post here often, but have been here for many years. I was active when building my car, more a lurker now living through others builds. I do not know Greg or Ron. Literally other than their posts I wouldn't know either if they walked up to me on the street.

But I will say this, how people act is usually a dead give away to their beliefs and intent.

Greg has always seemed genuine, passionate and like me, a car guy but not an expert.

Ron has always come across as an expert, some of his posts clearly show he really knows his stuff. Way beyond my comprehension. But very self promoting. I'm all for advertising and building a business, but real experts don't proclaim their expertise, they let others give them that tag. Let their actions speak for themselves (by the way not saying they don't ... it's just my perception of what I see).

It's shame when two friends fall out and it ends badly publicly, but as a business person myself, ethics and integrity are paramount to me. I doubt we will ever know the full and honest truth and there is always liability in a split from both sides. But I for one would prefer a supplier to the industry be exposed for less than ideal practices than more people get burnt.

For Ron, even if there is a lot that isn't true, or even if he feels like it isn't true. If this is the wake up call that gets his business back on track and he over delivers (as stated in an earlier post) then that's good for the industry.

There are no mistakes, only lessons.

[68EFIvert]

Like the others I am sorry things didn't work out as planned for Greg and Ron. I can only speak about my experiences. I don't know Greg and started working with Ron about 3 years ago. I have attended all of Ron's seminars and found them to be immensely beneficial to my understanding how a car handles.

I asked Ron to take a look at my old suspension setup and put the numbers through his analysis software. He came back to me and gave me the hard truth that it wouldn't work for my expectations. He did tell me that I could make significant changes to make it better, but not to the level I wanted it to be at. I elected to cut my losses and move forward with one of his suspension designs.

The build process went pretty smoothly. It was about 3 months longer than originally planned but that worked out great for me. It allowed us to finish up with the metal work before changing out the suspension. The chassis shop also did not have the time to work on the car when it was scheduled to be delivered so the delay was actually good.

The components and service have been much better than I could have hoped for. Ron has been available to answer any tech or install questions that I or the shop has had. His service before and after the sale has exceeded my expectations.

I have not completed the car so I can't give you any feedback on how it is performing but I can say the race shop that installed the setup is pretty excited to see how it performs. They are expecting strong results.

Again, I am sorry things for others have not worked out as planned. I have been on the other side where I was on the short end of the stick. In fact, I am currently working with two different manufactures of flush mount glass for my car build and have been so for well over a year. I paid one of them for 1/2 the development costs of the glass and I purchased a car for the other one (to be used for development) in exchange for the flush glass. I did this to hedge myself and feel that I may never see a product from at least on of them. Like Greg I give the benefit of the doubt to people and sometimes I regret it. I don't regret working with Ron though.

I don't post on Lateral G much but here is a link to my build threat if anyone wants to see the car.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/95668-1968-Volvo-project-Pure-Volvocity?highlight=volvo

[GregWeld]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180904/b6943d44f6598805934b371634ffbd79.jpg





https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180904/48257b49e87728dd0bfc5f2bb5a9728a.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[ilikeike]

Waiting for the urinal cake pic in welds shop. :lol:

[raustinss]

I literally was thinking ... I bet hes got one inside the bowl of the crapper !

[GregWeld]

Waiting for the urinal cake pic in welds shop. :lol:

This would be a Sutton marketing spin........



66831

[GregWeld]

I literally was thinking ... I bet hes got one inside the bowl of the crapper !



Schwarz beat me to it!



66832

[raustinss]

Lmao I'm literally laughing about Swartz... and the sweating horsepower .... oh Ron c'mon back with someone else to blame this is too funny

[Stuart Adams]

Too funny.

[DBasher]

Just sayin

[Panteracer]

Dbasher,
You really crack me up

thanks for the laugh

Bob

[GregWeld]

Hey Sutton --- why not come on and explain to everyone how honest you are and how you're "no Frank at Prodigy"?

The latest info is that you were paid in full for my motor -- and we've had it for MONTHS -- but seems you never paid Scoggins Dickey for it..... Gee that seems real "un Frank like" to me.

Oh -- and how 'bout explaining the Track Warrior motor you sold - where the customer opened it up and nothing inside was what it was supposed to be.... And you have the balls to name drop Kurt Urban? Really? I can assure you he nor SDPC built motors with the wrong parts. YOU however spec the parts when you order them don't you.

The list grows and grows.

If you got his latest email trying to sell you parts from his inventory ---- watch out below -- because in the same breath he's telling his suppliers he's filing for Chapter 7. What does that mean?? It means that inventory is not his.... it's an asset that belongs to his creditors.

Oh and that SDPC Track Warrior motor he is offering --- yeah about that..... remember the customer "that is going a different direction".... a different direction because he's RUNNING AWAY from your phony spec motor that was discovered. That motor is most likely also not paid for - and would/could be subject to a clawback in a BK filing. Not to mention it isn't what he's claiming it to be. Gee --- "not Frank like at all". Nope -- perfectly on the up and up. LOL

Ditto all the "refunds" he's going to issue.... they would also be subject to a clawback. So good luck folks.

You just can't make this shi!t up!!

[BigBronco]

Man, all things that have happened and I have to say what makes me the saddest, is that I have never had the chance to meet Greg in person. I'd down a lot of beers with this guy and hang out, race cars and talk shop.

In regards to Ron Sutton, myself and a few local guys learned a couple years ago to not rely on his services/knowledge.

-Gray

[Stuart Adams]

Hey Sutton --- why not come on and explain to everyone how honest you are and how you're "no Frank at Prodigy"?

The latest info is that you were paid in full for my motor -- and we've had it for MONTHS -- but seems you never paid Scoggins Dickey for it..... Gee that seems real "un Frank like" to me.

Oh -- and how 'bout explaining the Track Warrior motor you sold - where the customer opened it up and nothing inside was what it was supposed to be.... And you have the balls to name drop Kurt Urban? Really? I can assure you he nor SDPC built motors with the wrong parts. YOU however spec the parts when you order them don't you.

The list grows and grows.

If you got his latest email trying to sell you parts from his inventory ---- watch out below -- because in the same breath he's telling his suppliers he's filing for Chapter 7. What does that mean?? It means that inventory is not his.... it's an asset that belongs to his creditors.

Oh and that SDPC Track Warrior motor he is offering --- yeah about that..... remember the customer "that is going a different direction".... a different direction because he's RUNNING AWAY from your phony spec motor that was discovered. That motor is most likely also not paid for - and would/could be subject to a clawback in a BK filing. Not to mention it isn't what he's claiming it to be. Gee --- "not Frank like at all". Nope -- perfectly on the up and up. LOL

Ditto all the "refunds" he's going to issue.... they would also be subject to a clawback. So good luck folks.

You just can't make this shi!t up!!



Thanks to you someone may not be the next victim. :flag2:

[RidiCat69]

Man, all things that have happened and I have to say what makes me the saddest, is that I have never had the chance to meet Greg in person. I'd down a lot of beers with this guy and hang out, race cars and talk shop.

In regards to Ron Sutton, myself and a few local guys learned a couple years ago to not rely on his services/knowledge.

-Gray


What’s your bad experience, Gray?

[rickpaw]

Man, all things that have happened and I have to say what makes me the saddest, is that I have never had the chance to meet Greg in person. I'd down a lot of beers with this guy and hang out, race cars and talk shop.
...
-Gray

Gray,

Greg is doing the HoF tour to GG Fort Worth. You can always meet him there. :gitrdun:

I'd like to meet him, plus other as well, but my schedule won't work out.

Tu

[BigBronco]

What’s your bad experience, Gray?

Nothing on the price scale of some of the people on this board, but I had a person come to me as a second opinion on a braking issue. RS swore about clamp flexing issues and other items along with a potential need to upgrade to a package of his.

In the end, we were able to find out the issue and help get all the braking issues solved without giving him a dime. After that, we felt that if someone we knew was wanting to spend money there on braking solutions, we would send them elsewhere. RS gave us that good snake oil salesman feel, you know what I mean.

[Paul69camaro]

I guess I’ll go against the grain here an post my experience with Ron. I don’t expect this to carry much weight since I never post on this site but have been reading in here for as long as I can remember.

I started working with Ron in August of 2014 after reading about Lances Monte Carlo. I bought a full suspension setup from him for my Buick Grand National. I could not have been more pleased with the results of that car. Since then he has setup and provided the parts for my c5 Z06 and c6 z06 that are track cars. They also kicked ass, especially the c5Z that I used his Stoptech brakes on. In the past 4 years, between my cars and cars I work on, I have spent $30k+ with him. I understand this is chump change vs Greg’s car but the point is that it’s probably been over 20 orders and never had an issue with parts being delivered or small issues being corrected (got wrong brake lines). Yes at times he was hard to get a hold of but always got back to me.

It saddens me to see the issues between him and Greg (who I’ve never had contact with). The way I see it, Ron totally screwed up my saying he could build a car from scratch in 4 months. But to expect a car without issues in 4 months is also unrealistic (I will say that body work is probably the worst I’ve seen).. To me he over promised and under delivered but I’m still not convinced he’s a snake.

[raustinss]

I have a DSE sway bar for my chevelle that I bought from another member either here or the other site. It came from frank... I mean ron sutton . Too bad I already picked up all the dog crap in the back yard. If I wait a week or 2 I'll have a use for the box.

[GregWeld]

You do understand that Ron managed all of my track cars.... for YEARS.... He was my driver coach - car / tire / motor / brakes / set up.... So while you had a few parts from him -- So did I... and everything worked great -- until it didn't.

If you go back and read -- this was not about the hasty build... which wasn't hasty by the way... It was about all the other people that did NOT have a good experience... and there's quite a few.








I guess I’ll go against the grain here an post my experience with Ron. I don’t expect this to carry much weight since I never post on this site but have been reading in here for as long as I can remember.

I started working with Ron in August of 2014 after reading about Lances Monte Carlo. I bought a full suspension setup from him for my Buick Grand National. I could not have been more pleased with the results of that car. Since then he has setup and provided the parts for my c5 Z06 and c6 z06 that are track cars. They also kicked ass, especially the c5Z that I used his Stoptech brakes on. In the past 4 years, between my cars and cars I work on, I have spent $30k+ with him. I understand this is chump change vs Greg’s car but the point is that it’s probably been over 20 orders and never had an issue with parts being delivered or small issues being corrected (got wrong brake lines). Yes at times he was hard to get a hold of but always got back to me.

It saddens me to see the issues between him and Greg (who I’ve never had contact with). The way I see it, Ron totally screwed up my saying he could build a car from scratch in 4 months. But to expect a car without issues in 4 months is also unrealistic (I will say that body work is probably the worst I’ve seen).. To me he over promised and under delivered but I’m still not convinced he’s a snake.

[FETorino]

You do understand that Ron managed all of my track cars.... for YEARS.... He was my driver coach - car / tire / motor / brakes / set up.... So while you had a few parts from him -- So did I... and everything worked great -- until it didn't.

If you go back and read -- this was not about the hasty build... which wasn't hasty by the way... It was about all the other people that did NOT have a good experience... and there's quite a few.

You are over reacting Greg. It's like you think the car showed up a month after the first shakedown day with the same issues.

Greg had a great post.

I always like to give a "Good, Bad & Ugly" of our Race days, Tests & Initial Shake Down Day like this was:

The Good:
The car was a rocket. Engine ran great & fast. Car had great grip & turned like a champ. Brakes worked excellent. The little things worked well except 2. :trophy-1302:

The bad:
We had a couple oil spray issues. One from a valve cover & one from the dry sump vent. Easy fixes. Our 16 volt battery died & wouldn't take a charge. Obviously an easy fix to replace. :mad:

The ugly:
Aside from cleaning some oil off the firewall, having to jump start the car had me frustrated. :hairpullout:

We'll fix those two glitches learned from our Shake down & have the car ready go go soon. Here are some photos:



:confused59:

Oh wait. Never mind. It was exactly the same problems but with powder coating added.

[Thumpt]

No winners here unfortunately, a real shame for all.

[FETorino]

No winners here unfortunately, a real shame for all.

Money.

People kill each other over the stuff. I hear chasing it can be more addictive than beer.

[DBasher]

You are over reacting Greg. It's like you think the car showed up a month after the first shakedown day with the same issues.



:confused59:

Oh wait. Never mind. It was exactly the same problems but with powder coating added.

Come on Rob, you’ve got to give credit where credits due. It also had an exceptional wrap job, parts falling off and the oh so important sealing of the cockpit.
What a turd!

[FETorino]

Come on Rob, you’ve got to give credit where credits due. It also had an exceptional wrap job, parts falling off and the oh so important sealing of the cockpit.
What a turd!

You and Greg need a snickers bar. You become project Divas when you’re hungry.

[will69camaro]

Nothing on the price scale of some of the people on this board, but I had a person come to me as a second opinion on a braking issue. RS swore about clamp flexing issues and other items along with a potential need to upgrade to a package of his.

In the end, we were able to find out the issue and help get all the braking issues solved without giving him a dime. After that, we felt that if someone we knew was wanting to spend money there on braking solutions, we would send them elsewhere. RS gave us that good snake oil salesman feel, you know what I mean.

Bingo, after talking to RS about it and then not being convinced by the answer (i'm an inquisitive person already, and an engineer as well), I talked to Tobin at Kore3 and got some more insight. I was being told my W6A calipers were FLEXING which was causing my poor braking performance and was told to buy some new calipers which he happened to be a vendor for! Instead I changed a couple master cylinders to get my brake line pressure where it should be, and all was gravy. Spent ~$100 instead of several grand.

I feel bad for anyone that doesn't have a somewhat technical mindset as guys like that pray on those without the knowledge and experience in order to make a sale.

William

[GregWeld]

I don't know how much clearer of a picture a guy could try to paint.... When "wrong parts" means your engine internals aren't what you paid for.... When you use big words like "optimized" and then sell stock off the shelf stuff.... When you use big words like "secret sauce" but someone else has to explain to you that they had to give him a class on how to do stuff.... the secret part means it's just "BS".... When you've been sued in the past for scamming people.... and you're doing it again..... just in a different place and with a different twist..... I don't care how many of you had good experiences in the past - you were just the lucky ones "this time".

[Vegas69]

I don't see how anyone can dispute it at this point.

These guys have to treat people right for a while to get the connections and their foot in the door. Really, Greg was romanced for years and that engendered a trust that I'm sure led to a bunch of new business.

I was one of the main guys for Frank. He always treated me right and delivered a quality piece to me out of his shop. I'm sure that led to all kinds of opportunity for him.

[Che70velle]

There will always be naysayers. Those in denial who refuse to believe that they could possibly get took by a person who treats them so well. They figure that since they’ve spent a few grand with someone, that makes them friends. And a friend would never steal from them, right?
I watched the end of the Prodigy deal come down, and I saw several people claim that they could not believe that a guy like Frank would do this to them. They were “friends”...
I feel like we are seeing version 2.0 unfold, and when the dust settles, there will be many hurt “friends”. It hurts to watch.

[dontlifttoshift]

I was being told my W6A calipers were FLEXING which was causing my poor braking performance

William

Just on this very specific topic and having no bearing on anything else. Those calipers are junk. There is a reason they don't make them anymore and they were replaced with the Aero6.

[will69camaro]

Just on this very specific topic and having no bearing on anything else. Those calipers are junk. There is a reason they don't make them anymore and they were replaced with the Aero6.

I don’t doubt that. And after using multiple products I feel most of wilwood stuff is junk. Doesn’t change the fact that following his advice I’d have paid several grand for what $100 in MC fixed.

I was sold the wilwood I have by another vendor on here claiming them as an awesome setup. And here we are.

They’ll be replaced eventually, but for now I’m enjoying driving it and they work well enough for my skill level.

[DBasher]

They’ll be replaced eventually, but for now I’m enjoying driving it and they work well enough for my skill level.

Something everyone should remember, including myself.

[will69camaro]

Something everyone should remember, including myself.

Luckily I learned it early as I was a college kid thrashing on a cheap 4th gen. Cheap suspension, cheapish brakes and decent tires. I feel i was just getting the hang of it after probably 10k miles at TWS in that car. Now trying to learn on something much more capable, much more power, much less experience with it. I doubt i get into much brake fade or caliper flex on the autocrossing i'm doing with it right now.

Next setup will be something more, track oriented, and less budget friendly i'm sure. Maybe these will end up on my C10!

[raustinss]

Am I the only one who feels that this threads title is also applicable to that one time when you trusted a fart and e shouldn't have . ? ... Asking for a friend... yeah uh Bill is his name

[RidiCat69]

I'm going the League of Shadows route on this one. This thread is beyond saving, and must be allowed to die.

We're creating serious divisions in our community guys. Is it worthit?
Everything that can be said, has been. People have already made up their minds, and there's nothing anyone can do to change it. Not what this forum is suppose to be about.

[will69camaro]

I'm not sure i see the division you do. I see someone trying his best to point out issues he's having to keep people from making the same mistake. He has said numerous times that if you want to continue to business with him, feel free, but he's clearing his conscious from the potential for having someone do business when he could have warned them.

At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to spend their own money, their own way!

I think this thread should get a sticky :headspin:

[RidiCat69]

Well whatever. Just my .02 I didnt expect anything different

[FETorino]

I’d say make the thread a sticky so the history doesn’t get buried but close it.

I agree the points have all been made and now people who weren’t involved are at each other.

Fact. Ron started this thread and then dissapeared.
Fact. If there was something said on here that wasn’t true he had every opportunity to defend himself.
Fact. Ron F’d Greg over .
Fact. Ron helped some people out with thier setups.
Fact. Ron delivered parts ordered to some people.
Fact. Ron took an unreasonably long amount of time to fill some comitments he made.
Fact. Ron made comitments he never made good on.
Fact. Ron filed for BK.
Fact. Ron put his supposed friend and professional driver in an unsafe cockpit full of oil fumes (stuff is flamable and you shouldn’t breath it)
Fact. Ron didn’t pay some of his vendors for products or services provided that he sold to customers.

The final fact is everyone has a right to read this thread and make thier own decision to thier own benifit or detriment.

So believe the guy desperate to make a buck who has, and is, filing BK.
Or
Believe the guy with more $$ than I will ever have or could imagine having, a guy who regularily helps people out and is generous to anyone who hangs out with him, for admitting he was a dumba$# for being duped by a snake oil salesman and is trying to warn those who can’t afford to waste thousands of duckets like he did.

[Oleyellar]

I think Velocity or Discovery should get with the program, another reality TV series, or soap opera ,,,,, As the Wheels Turn...

[Flash68]

Yep. Both parties (and plenty others) have spoken.

We're done here.