Heat soak?

[J-440]

Just installed new PTFE lines and was careful to keep them away from the exhaust heat. After warmup and a drive around the block (about 20 minutes), my car sputters and dies. Even when I stomp on the gas, it falls on its face. She fires right up though but I have to coast home barely touching the throttle. At first I thought one of my lines was too close to the frame rail and was kinking so I moved it and the pump (external mount) over about 2 inches. Car is still doing the same thing. The entire fuel system is new including the pickup in the tank. I'm wondering if the fuel is getting hot. The lines going to the fuel rails are insulated but I do have a small section that's exposed and it's resting right under the intake.
Here's a pic of the fuel line that I think might still be kinked? Thanks as always for the advice.

[Vegas69]

Sounds like a venting issue to me. Next tine it happens, unscrew the gas cap and if you hear a woos, you'll know the tank is under vacuum. How's it vented? You need a big vent for that big pump.

[GregWeld]

Todd has a good idea there....


I'd also suggest the pump itself may be the cause -- those pumps work hard and without a controller --- they get HOT!

[J-440]

I was wondering the same thing. I’m still using the stock vent tube which has only a 1/8” ID. Would it be as simple as switching to a bigger tube or do I need something more?

[Vegas69]

Greg could very well be right too, but I do think you vent is really small for such a high volume of fuel moving. I'd have a pressure gauge on the engine to make sure it's dropping off at the same time to rule out anything else. If the pressure is down when you lose power, unscrew the gas cap and see if the tank is under vacuum and your fuel pressure should come back quickly. That small vent may be overheating that pump pre-maturely so it may need to cool down. You could always drive the car with the cap loose and take it slow. That will add some venting and simulate a bigger vent. I'm with Greg, I've always heard you need a controller on that pump or they overheat within 60-90 minutes.

[J-440]

Good deal. I’m going to start with a bigger vent tube and work my way up. Thanks again.

[syborg tt]

I have an Areomotive pump controller if you need one. Been sitting on a shelf for years in my warehouse

Send me a pm


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[Panteracer]

I have been running an external A-1000 on my Pantera for over 10 years
I did have one crap out at the Reno Fernly track about 7 years back
and replaced it without issues... I street drive and track the car a lot
sometimes 100 plus miles on a weekend..plus a lot of cruising

I assume you have a return line and looks to be -10... with a regulator?
When I first put the same system on the Firebird the return line was a
-8 ... 3/8" line and I could not get the fuel pressure down... Aeromotive
said to up the size and then it was good

I am currently installing a new cell in that car with an Aeromotive A-1000
in tank pump... I talked to them about the controller listed in the instructions
They stated that it pumps so much that the fuel may get too hot as it
is being recycled too fast... mostly when you have a small amount in the tank
I am going to not do the controller as the system worked before just in tank
now... might not be your case.... if you have very little fuel in the tank
I bet it is recycling too fast and getting hot.. try filling it up and see what
happens otherwise you may in fact need their regulator

Ps... I have a filter before and after the pump as recommended by Aeromotive

Bob

[J-440]

I have a -10 sending line and a -8 return. I enlarged my vent tube to 1/2” ID. I also have 2 filters, 1 before and 1 after. It’s weird bc all of this started happening as soon as I replaced the old rubber lines with newer ptfe lines. Going to take off the pump (unbolt it from the mount) and let it hang freely with no kinks and see what happens.

[Panteracer]

Problem I see is rubber hoses are most of the time
a little bigger diameter than the braided type so your
flow has more than likely changed from before

Bob

[Panteracer]

Just wondering if your supply is -10 and return is -8
why does the one to the pump (supply) look smaller in the picture?

ob

[J-440]

Bad photo I guess?? Thanks for the tip.

[Panteracer]

Let us know what you find out or what works

thanks,

Bob

[CarlC]

How much horsepower is the engine making?

That's a lot of pump for most applications.

And if the engine is stalling with little to no throttle, it's not a venting problem.

[J-440]

Only about 525 at the crank. I’m thinking I still have a kink somewhere. Gonna do some experimenting this weekend.

[J-440]

Ok, well I've ruled out a kink. Car is still doing the same thing. Warmed up after about 10 minutes, fuel pressure starts dropping, then the car dies. I've been having voltage issues and it seems when the fan kicks on, that's when the fuel pressure really drops. I've spoken to a few members and they recommended "0" gauge wire to the battery and frame. I'm currently using 1 gauge. Seems like this would make sense right?

[GregWeld]

Ok, well I've ruled out a kink. Car is still doing the same thing. Warmed up after about 10 minutes, fuel pressure starts dropping, then the car dies. I've been having voltage issues and it seems when the fan kicks on, that's when the fuel pressure really drops. I've spoken to a few members and they recommended "0" gauge wire to the battery and frame. I'm currently using 1 gauge. Seems like this would make sense right?

I've never heard of "1" gauge wiring -- typically wire is referred to as "aught" -- so ONE AUGHT -- 1/0 --- or TWO AUGHT -- 2/0.....

1/0 being smaller than 2/0....

1/0 can carry 300 amps for 19 feet --- 2/0 can carry that a bit further.

Are you running 1/0 ?? Or 1 gauge ???

The key is grounds must be as good as the hot side of a circuit. You could conceivably have a "high resistance" connection somewhere in the system - on either the ground or the hot side - and as this connection heats up - it's resistance increases.... until it can't carry the load.

I would "ASSume" there are RELAYS used for switching loads such as this pump and your electric fans etc?????? You could have a bad relay and as it heats up it breaks down.... I've had that issue before.

[J-440]

It's just plain old 1 gauge. However, I've seen a chart for gauges/amps for how many feet etc. They recommend 3/0AWG for my setup. Battery is in trunk and everyone seems to think the wire I'm using ain't cutting it. Makes sense since as soon as the fan kicks on, my fuel pressure drops. Plus I ate an Optima yellow top and a 140amp alternator awhile back. Think the smaller wire would do all that?
Oh and I've got relays all over the place. Car only has 350 miles on it.

[Panteracer]

Running 2 0 on the firebird for many years
It is actually welding cable. I have it on ground side also
I also ran a separate ground back to the battery from my relay panel
Relays help but with electric fans, msd, fuel pump and I have an electric water pump all those things add up to a lot of draw on the battery and alternator

You can also not have too many grounds. Our panteras need multiple grounds
added due to the poor original grounding. I have seen some high powered cooling fans requiring 50 amp fuses. That is a lot of draw. Add your load up to make sure your alternator can keep up with your draw

Not an expert but been there before

Bob

[rickpaw]

Is your fuel pump near the trunk where the power comes off the battery?

Also, those crimp connectors on the pump look questionable, especially the black ground wire. I could see the bare copper wire thru the back of the yellow plastic insulator.

I had a bad crimp connection on the fuel pump relay. The car would run fine around town, but on long drives (2+ hours drive straight), the car would loose fuel pressure, and stopped running. Baffled me awhile, until the connection failed completely (crimp location burned/melted insulator). After that, I pull and discard those plastic insulators, crimp/solder the connections, and put adhesive backed heat shrink over the soldered joint.

[J-440]

Yeah the pump is mounted above the axle about 12” from the tank. The battery is over the rear right so it’s kinda close to the pump. And yeah I’ll need to readdress my wiring job. I’ll do that when I change out the 1 gauge wire with 3/0.

[GregWeld]

Does the pump have a “flooded head”. Or is it having to lift the fuel from the supply side??

[J-440]

Greg I know that I don't know you that well, but I'm not hip to "gay slang". I sure as hell don't know what a flooded head is. And "lifting the yellow"....is that a derogatory anti-Asian statement from back in the days of WW2?? I think I might be triggered by those statements.:)
Just kidding brother. No dude, I seriously don't know what you mean.

[GregWeld]

Greg I know that I don't know you that well, but I'm not hip to "gay slang". I sure as hell don't know what a flooded head is. And "lifting the yellow"....is that a derogatory anti-Asian statement from back in the days of WW2?? I think I might be triggered by those statements.:)
Just kidding brother. No dude, I seriously don't know what you mean.




LOL ---- Okay - Okay!


Flooded head -- means does the fuel flow to the pump intake side without any help (suction). So it would be about like saying -- is the PUMP lower than the TANK


Yellow? Yeah that's the color of my race gas! Did I really say that??? LOL I corrected the post and substituted the word FUEL for Yellow.


So what happens with most electric fuel pumps -- they're not made to SUCK fuel - they're made to PUSH fuel -- so if the head (pump) is flooded -- the fuel flows to the pump naturally -- and the pump only needs to push it along...... IF you have to lift the fuel -- i.e., the pump has to SUCK fuel to feed itself --- the suction can create cavitation (air bubbles) - and if it's too severe can cause the fuel to "boil".....


I'm really just trying to help get this sorted out - and not being able to see the set up etc - causes questions.

[J-440]

The pump is a little higher than the tank so it’s sucking about a foot and a half of fuel and pushing the rest. Would a fuel pump controller work in this situation? I’ve got some 3/0 gauge wire coming and so I’ll try that as well. When my fan turns on, that’s when the pressure drops on my regulator.

[Panteracer]

My A1000 pump on my firebird was mounted at the top of the
tank and the outlet feeding it was approx 2-3' away and at
the bottom of the tank... no issues with a 750hp 494 cubic inch
Ponitiac... type of pump (these babies pump a lot) and location
are not his issue.. sounds like too much for his current electrical
system... hopefully his alternator will keep up with things

Bob

[70 tt rustang]

Where is your feed and return?
Hopefully not next to each other in the same sump?

[syborg tt]

Any updates


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[J-440]

The 2/0 cables seem to be working. My alternator gauge is reading slightly under 14. At the battery it's reading 14.5. Gauge could be off a little. I can't connect my laptop to my ECU bc it keeps crashing (long story). I really need to see what my ECU is reading, that's the main thing.