Brake Bleed

[Stielow]

I developed a new way to Bleed brakes.

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I have struggled for years on getting a good brake feel in my cars. If you have every driven a new Camaro or Corvette the brake feel is fantastic! I looked into how GM does it from the assembly plant.

We use an evacuation and fill process.


• If the system will not hold pressure you have a leak. I used my set up to pressurize the system (Dry) to 50 psi. At 50 psi you can hear any major leaks. I forgot to tighten on flare nut. Once I tightened that up system would still not hold 50 psi for 30 minutes. I used soap and water on all the fitting until I found the one slightly leaking. Once the system held 50 psi rock solid I knew it would not leak..

• Connect a vacuum source to a 100% dry system and pull a vacuum down to around 28 to 30 inches of mercury. Hold the vacuum for approx. 30 minutes. This does 2 things: shows the system is air tight and boils any water vapor out of the complete system. So the system is air tight, the bleeders are closed and the entire system is under vacuum.

• My set up has two ports on it. One to pull a vacuum via an A/C evacuation pump and the 2nd hold brake fluid pressurized to 50 psi via pressure regulator.

• Once the complete brake system is pulled down to full vacuum, I close the valve to the vacuum pump. The upper tank has 1.5 quarts of brake fluid in it pressurized to 50 psi.

• When I opened the valve it allows the brake fluid to be forced into the system. It fill everything: brake master cylinder, brake ABS module and all 4 calipers.

• After the fill the brake master cylinder reservoir is also over filled. I applied a vacuum to my set up and pulled a little brake fluid out to set it at the “full” line on the reservoir.

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I know this will work on new GM brake parts because GM validated the parts to be used this way in the assembly plant. The parts will withstand full vacuum and 50 psi. I am not sure if aftermarket parts will hold up to this!

After I did the first evacuation and fill I had fluid in all the calibers and ABS module. I did a quick ABS bleed on the system by pressurizing the brake reservoir to 50 PSI and cycling the ABS module.

After that I have not touched my brake system again and my brake pedal feel is like a stock ZR1 Corvette.



Mark

[cluxford]

Mark,

Having spent almost 6 hours on Sat bleeding mine using a vacuum approach and old school manual bleeding (my daughter earned 10 bucks for sitting in the drivers seat laying on her ipad and pumping the brake pedal) your idea presents an interesting idea.

I like the simplicity of the idea, but you mention an empty system. For most of us, that's rarely the case. We might be changing an existing part in an existing system. But this could still work. Firstly, take an existing system with fluid in the lines. Connect your system, open all the bleeders (connect some plastic hose and "pots" to each one). Power it up, open the valve and flush all fluid from all lines, emptying the system.

Then repeat the process as you've described in your video to refill and bleed the system.

Thoughts ?

[GregWeld]

Mark,

Having spent almost 6 hours on Sat bleeding mine using a vacuum approach and old school manual bleeding (my daughter earned 10 bucks for sitting in the drivers seat laying on her ipad and pumping the brake pedal) your idea presents an interesting idea.

I like the simplicity of the idea, but you mention an empty system. For most of us, that's rarely the case. We might be changing an existing part in an existing system. But this could still work. Firstly, take an existing system with fluid in the lines. Connect your system, open all the bleeders (connect some plastic hose and "pots" to each one). Power it up, open the valve and flush all fluid from all lines, emptying the system.

Then repeat the process as you've described in your video to refill and bleed the system.

Thoughts ?



You'd blow the line right off the bleeders..... and then blow fluid everywhere.


Mark doesn't go into enough detail about where he took the vacuum from --- and put the pressure to. Is the vacuum at ONE caliper - farthest away from the Master cylinder or where?? If so - how do the other calipers get fluid?

I like the idea but was left totally not understanding the detail of the process.....

[cluxford]

yeah good point Greg, I think it could be possible though with less pressure

[Stielow]

All the OEs do millions of cars this way every year. That is why I built my systems. The GM Parts are disgned to do it this way.

I was at the Camaro assembly plant for months and watched the systems work.

I'm not saying this is for everyone but it worked for me.

Mark

[DBasher]

Mark doesn't go into enough detail about where he took the vacuum from --- and put the pressure to. Is the vacuum at ONE caliper - farthest away from the Master cylinder or where?? If so - how do the other calipers get fluid?

I like the idea but was left totally not understanding the detail of the process.....

It looks like the lower gauge on the manifold is where the vacuum is pulled from and the pressure is applied from the top of his reservoir, which would work just fine....if all the ports in the system are wide open. Obviously not the bleeders.

Need more details and information....please.

[GregWeld]

All the OEs do millions of cars this way every year. That is why I built my systems. The GM Parts are disgned to do it this way.

I was at the Camaro assembly plant for months and watched the systems work.

I'm not saying this is for everyone but it worked for me.

Mark




I totally understand you wouldn't do anything that wouldn't work ----- What the video doesn't show is many details..

[Stielow]

I totally understand you wouldn't do anything that wouldn't work ----- What the video doesn't show is many details..

Sorry Greg I revised my original post with more detail. See above.

Mark

[Stielow]

Sorry Greg I revised my original post with more detail. See above.



Mark



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171002/c47a13e6506b54e080f3583378a69af6.jpg

I use this to just Bleed my brakes. An adaptor to the C6 Corvette brake reservoir and a cheap pressure regulator to hold 50 psi to the system.

Mark



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GregWeld]

Thank you for the update Mark!!!

[NAPA 68]

Great info!

[71RS/SS396]

Sooo....When will the "Stielow Bleeder" be available for purchase? :D

[CarlC]

Mark, where did you find the reservoir cap?

[dontlifttoshift]

https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-1118-Adapter/dp/B00YS8JW54

[Boss 5.0]

I use one of these for filling cooling systems....

https://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/AC550000/AIRLIFT-COOLING-SYSTEM-AIR-PURGE/

From what you are describing and show it is almost exactly as this works for cooling. It draws vacuum down and makes sure there are no leaks, then with the hose dropped into the coolant you open the valve and it forces it into the entire system. I haven't had to burp a system since 1996 when I bought this.


A system like this for brake fluid would be incredible!!!

[Stielow]

https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-1118-Adapter/dp/B00YS8JW54

This one works better

Power Probe BA04 Brake Bleeder Adapter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037668CI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_xYqT8ERFtwZLL

Seals a lot tighter.

Mark

[Stielow]

I use one of these for filling cooling systems....

https://www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/AC550000/AIRLIFT-COOLING-SYSTEM-AIR-PURGE/

From what you are describing and show it is almost exactly as this works for cooling. It draws vacuum down and makes sure there are no leaks, then with the hose dropped into the coolant you open the valve and it forces it into the entire system. I haven't had to burp a system since 1996 when I bought this.


A system like this for brake fluid would be incredible!!!

I fought bleeding brakes for years. This system works great for me. If you don't do the vacuum part and just the pressure part that works very well also. If you try it make sure you have a stock GM resivoir. I have no idea what will happen with aftermarket parts.

Thanks

Mark

[carbuff]

Mark,

I really like this idea! As with many ideas, it seems so logical once you see it, but I had never thought of it. I have a few follow-up questions please:


Have you attempted this same method on your hydraulic clutch system?
What tank did you use on the pressure side to hold the fluid? It looks like a Canton tank, with a modified top (to seal) and bottom (for a larger fitting)?
Is 50-psi pressure a 'magic' number for the pressure side? I'm curious if a lower-pressure would be sufficient (perhaps for the clutch which is not as robust of a reservoir)?
Finally, when you topped off the final fill, did you have to suck fluid out to achieve that level after you released the pressure? You mentioned an extension on the bottom of the cap, but it's not clear to me how that helps...

Sorry for all of the questions, but I would like to replicate this in the near future as I'll be filling my own brake system soon. I'd prefer to learn from experience vs. having to do it by trial and error. ;) I have the cap on order (should have been here already but for a shipping snafu...).

Thanx for sharing!

[Musclerodz]

The phoenix bleeder does pressure or vacuum but not to this degree. Something I need to look closer at before we do the next brake system.

[CarlC]

Thanks Mark.

[67rsssls]

Hey Mark,

Does the factory use something similar to fill the hydraulic clutch system?

Thanks,

Steve

[preston]

Looks good and could uncover small leaks, but I've never had an issue getting a rock hard brake pedal just using one of those cheap pressure bleeders. I felt like I found God the first time I used one instead of pumping the pedal. But I don't have an ABS module either.

[TheJDMan]

I visited the Corvette assembly line in Bowing Green a while back and one of the items I specifically tried to see was how they bleed brakes on the line. I was not able to figure out exactly where they did this much less how they did it. But it was clearly a very quick procedure. This is great information to know that a GM system can hold that pressure and vacuum. Now if Wilwood can tell me if their MCs will handle this kind of pressure and vacuum I should be set with my C6 Z06 calipers. Thanks for this info Mark!

[Hydratech®]

Hi Mark, great to see you post this, though I will say that it has me baffled as to how the brake system you have videoed holds that amount of vacuum. All of the directional cup seals in the system are designed to balloon out under pressure (MC, caliper piston seals). I'm very surprised to see that you have managed to draw that amount of vacuum and have it hold. Apparently the GM OEM cup seals are tight enough within their respective bores to also allow this strong of a vacuum to also be applied and held with the components you are using. I can see where square cut caliper piston seals may hold a vacuum, but the cup seals in the MC? Hmmm... Remember how everybody always talked about a ten pound residual valve in the rear brake circuit on drum brake equipped cars to prevent the cup seals from allowing air to get drawn in? My personal testing has shown that rear drums work just fine without the residual pressure... I am now curious as to how aftermarket MC's and caliper pistons may react to having a vacuum drawn on the system.

Ford has circulated a PS system bleeding procedure over the year that uses vacuum to assist in drawing air out of the PS system over the years too. I have tried this a few times on various different year / make / models with both empty and filled systems with zero success - will not hold a vacuum. On a running, happy and healthy PS system, my occasional previous testing with vacuum applied (while the engine is running) has actually "pissed off" the power steering system by drawing air in. I'm suspecting the front PS pump shaft seals (as they really aren't designed to hold any particular pressure), but haven't been able to prove it. Interesting that a high pressure hydraulic system is designed to hold pressure, but in my POWER STEERING (not brake) testing, vacuum has always worked out to be a "pie in my face", so I no longer fool with it.

Interesting... :thumbsup:

[dontlifttoshift]

I use vacuum to bleed power steering and hydraulic clutch systems all the time. Not 30" of vacuum but enough to suck the air out successfully. It is the Ford recommended procedure for clutch bleeding.

My testing with drum brakes and no residual valve ended with an okay pedal and adequate operation but the pedal height was always changing. I don't have the problem when the valve is in place.

I have had enough early vette masters apart to question how they could ever hold vacuum. There must be something in the late model master cylinders to accommodate that. Next time I have a complete new system, I will apply vaccum and see if it holds.

[jlwdvm]

I'm confused as to why the vacuum port and fluid port communicate with each other above the master.