Brakes not stopping very good !!

[DOOM]

Well guys I'm on to the next problem . I'm not happy with the way my car brakes . I have the complete ZR-1 Brembo / Carbon Ceramic set up on my car. 7/8 bore manual master . The pedal seems very soft . If yo have to panic stop it ain't happening. No matter how hard you press the pedal you can not get the brakes to lock up. There is no air in the lines I checked for that . Wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

[Ketzer]

I thought I read on here somewhere that they (carbons) have to have a good bit of heat in them to work well... but I don't remember anybody saying they had to have heat to work period.

[Vegas69]

It sounds like you may have air in your master cylinder. It may need re bench bleed. I personally never liked the 7/8 due to more pedal travel. I always thought a 15/16 would be perfect and I think they make it now. I ended up with a 1" on mine and preferred it over the 7/8. It was a higher firm pedal. It did take some leg.

Assuming your caliper pistons and master cylinder have been calculated correctly.

[Musclerodz]

Does it have a wilwood master on it? There is a recall on 7/8 bore masters.

[DOOM]

I thought I read on here somewhere that they (carbons) have to have a good bit of heat in them to work well... but I don't remember anybody saying they had to have heat to work period.
I thought so to but I've put plenty of heat on them and still the same.
It sounds like you may have air in your master cylinder. It may need re bench bleed. I personally never liked the 7/8 due to more pedal travel. I always thought a 15/16 would be perfect and I think they make it now. I ended up with a 1" on mine and preferred it over the 7/8. It was a higher firm pedal. It did take some leg.

Assuming your caliper pistons and master cylinder have been calculated correctly.
I will look into that Todd Thanx
Does it have a wilwood master on it? There is a recall on 7/8 bore masters.
Chrysler!!!:hairpullout:

[OLDFLM]

It sounds like you may have air in your master cylinder. It may need re bench bleed. I personally never liked the 7/8 due to more pedal travel. I always thought a 15/16 would be perfect and I think they make it now. I ended up with a 1" on mine and preferred it over the 7/8. It was a higher firm pedal. It did take some leg.

Assuming your caliper pistons and master cylinder have been calculated correctly.

I've the got Wilwood 1" on mine too. Locks up all four and emits white smoke when needed. Great pedal feel.

[Spiffav8]

Are you able to push the pedal all the way to the floor? Perhaps you need to move the seat forward or a put pillow behind you to help those short legs reach the pedal. You can always go old school and tape a block to the pedal.

:underchair:

[JKnight]

What are the specs on the factory ZR1 master? It stops just fine with little heat in the rotors. From what I understand, there's nothing magic about the CC stuff until you get into ABS programming, which isn't an issue here. I'd expect with a proper master you should have good brakes with the possible downside being that they'll get grabby and prone to locking up when you get them good and warm. Opposite of the issue you're having.

Edit: just realized the lack of power assist will make that comparison to the factory part less meaningful. Maybe Tobin with Kore3 can assist, he's good with the math stuff ;)

[DOOM]

Are you able to push the pedal all the way to the floor? Perhaps you need to move the seat forward or a put pillow behind you to help those short legs reach the pedal. You can always go old school and tape a block to the pedal.

:underchair:

Look at your Avitar! :buttkick: :mock:

[Musclerodz]

Personally I would put power brakes on it, but thats just me. Sometimes safety/function should outway form, or make it a focal point. Most the manual brakes setups I have done (customer request) I am rarely happy with the outcome.

[Vegas69]

I agree with Mike. Unless it's a race car, power brakes are superior on the street. Manual brakes give you the ultimate feel and control under heavy braking, but there are trade offs and my opinion, street drivability is one of them.

[gerno]

Are you able to push the pedal all the way to the floor? Perhaps you need to move the seat forward or a put pillow behind you to help those short legs reach the pedal. You can always go old school and tape a block to the pedal.

:underchair:

As much as this sounds like a joke it was the problem I had with my car. I thought for sure I had enough travel but didn't. Brakes wouldn't stop at all until I extended the linkage and added ~1-2" of travel. After the extension they were terrific. I have a 7/8 with Wilwoods, might not be the same issue but I really think its a test you should try

[randy]

Kore3 set me up with wil-260-8556-bk wilwood 1.125 bore since I went with c6 z06 corvette brakes. I can tell you my car stops very very hard without much effort. I honestly feel my 67 camaro brake pedal brakes just like my 2015 Infiniti as far as pedal feel but my 67 will stop on a dime. I'm also running hydroboost

[Blake Foster]

Personally I would put power brakes on it, but thats just me. Sometimes safety/function should outway form, or make it a focal point. Most the manual brakes setups I have done (customer request) I am rarely happy with the outcome.

humm we only do manual brakes and have never had any complaints.
with Baer proplus we use a 1" and with Wilwood a 15/16" master

[Musclerodz]

humm we only do manual brakes and have never had any complaints.
with Baer proplus we use a 1" and with Wilwood a 15/16" master

Customers don't complain, they asked for them. It's alot of work to properly size piston bores, master cylinder bore, pedal ration, etc to get manual brakes to work like I want them to work. No big deal if your installing the same setup multiple times. Unless the customer is asking for a manual setup, I would rather have the safety margin of power brakes for customers that own way more car than they can drive to start with.

[DOOM]

As much as this sounds like a joke it was the problem I had with my car. I thought for sure I had enough travel but didn't. Brakes wouldn't stop at all until I extended the linkage and added ~1-2" of travel. After the extension they were terrific. I have a 7/8 with Wilwoods, might not be the same issue but I really think its a test you should try

Hmmmmmmmm I'm going to look at that !

[dhutton]

Hi Mario. I think you need to do the math. Math is here:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/104584-Brake-sizing-and-selection-tutorial-featuring-Ron-Sutton-and-Tobin-of-KORE3

The specs you need are here:

http://lukeskaff.com/projects/car/third-gen-f-body-brake-upgrade/upgrade-options-and-measurements/

Sometimes it pays to enlist the help of an expert like Ron or Tobin.

Don

[DOOM]

Hi Mario. I think you need to do the math. Math is here:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/104584-Brake-sizing-and-selection-tutorial-featuring-Ron-Sutton-and-Tobin-of-KORE3

The specs you need are here:

http://lukeskaff.com/projects/car/third-gen-f-body-brake-upgrade/upgrade-options-and-measurements/

Sometimes it pays to enlist the help of an expert like Ron or Tobin.

Don

WOW!!! Looks like I'm gonna put a call into Ron he did my shocks . :thankyou:

[6camaro9]

Mario, I have been having the same issue with my brakes and was wondering if you would share what you found wrong with your system. Thank you in advance.

[Ron Sutton]

Mario & Richard ...

What are the piston sizes of your front & rear calipers?

Ron

[DOOM]

Mario & Richard ...

What are the piston sizes of your front & rear calipers?

Ron

Ron not sure but the calipers are stock ZR-1.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron not sure but the calipers are stock ZR-1.

Gotcha. What type & size of power booster do you run?

[GregWeld]

Wait! I thought this car was built by professionals?

WTF......

You need a larger master cylinder than the 7/8".

DO NOT LISTEN to people telling you that you need power brakes. That is utter crapola. Trust me -- the right combo of brakes and master cylinder.... that thing will stop on a dime.

Amazing that so called professional builders don't know how to do math on critical items. :catfight: :bang: :bang:

[dontlifttoshift]

Gotcha. What type & size of power booster do you run?



Manual, 7/8 bore master cylinder per the original post.

Curious to see where this goes. I know Larry Woo recently went to carbon brakes with a manual master but I don't know any details regarding that setup.

[GregWeld]

I have Carbon ceramic rotors on my 911 Turbo S ---- they require NO HEAT to work great.... They don't create dust.... they don't squeal.... Mind you, Porsche seems to be pretty good at engineering stuff.

[dontlifttoshift]

Are those manual brakes?

[DOOM]

Gotcha. What type & size of power booster do you run?



Ron no power booster, manual. 7/8 BORE

[Ron Sutton]

Ron no power booster, manual. 7/8 BORE

First ... it is so hard for me to trouble shoot something with as many variables as a brake system ... when I didn't design the package.
I talked to my sharp friends at Brembo USA/Race Technologies & they can not offer any technical support for this package, because:
1. It was engineered as a total Corvette power brake CCM system for GM
2. You don't have the total Corvette power brake CCM system
3. Brembo does not offer an aftermarket CCM brake system for Corvettes ... power or manual
4. Brembo does not offer an aftermarket CCM brake system for any custom or Pro-Touring car/application ... power or manual

Second ... there are two different routes to correct your brake system:
A. Have the system engineered & see if everything you have is correct. If not, correct it. If the system is engineered correctly, then you know there is a "wrench problem" and you need to have a brake expert trouble shoot the install & bleeding process on the car.
B. Have a brake expert trouble shoot the install & bleeding process on the car. If this fixes it ... great. If not, you know the system is not properly engineered, so you need to hire a brake engineer to evaluate & potentially re-engineer your system.

Third, and I am only 50/50 on this. To a degree ... but definitely not 100% ... I "think" this is an engineering issue, caused by adapting a "part of, but not the whole system" from the Corvette. Especially converted it to manual, when it was designed to use the highly efficient C6 dual booster system. With CCM & ABS, these can be complex systems. But on the other hand, it could be as simple as you have air trapped in the system you can't find. Since I didn't design the system, I simply don't know.

Best wishes !

[DOOM]

First ... it is so hard for me to trouble shoot something with as many variables as a brake system ... when I didn't design the package.
I talked to my sharp friends at Brembo USA/Race Technologies & they can not offer any technical support for this package, because:
1. It was engineered as a total Corvette power brake CCM system for GM
2. You don't have the total Corvette power brake CCM system
3. Brembo does not offer an aftermarket CCM brake system for Corvettes ... power or manual
4. Brembo does not offer an aftermarket CCM brake system for any custom or Pro-Touring car/application ... power or manual

Second ... there are two different routes to correct your brake system:
A. Have the system engineered & see if everything you have is correct. If not, correct it. If the system is engineered correctly, then you know there is a "wrench problem" and you need to have a brake expert trouble shoot the install & bleeding process on the car.
B. Have a brake expert trouble shoot the install & bleeding process on the car. If this fixes it ... great. If not, you know the system is not properly engineered, so you need to hire a brake engineer to evaluate & potentially re-engineer your system.

Third, and I am only 50/50 on this. To a degree ... but definitely not 100% ... I "think" this is an engineering issue, caused by adapting a "part of, but not the whole system" from the Corvette. Especially converted it to manual, when it was designed to use the highly efficient C6 dual booster system. With CCM & ABS, these can be complex systems. But on the other hand, it could be as simple as you have air trapped in the system you can't find. Since I didn't design the system, I simply don't know.

Best wishes !

I did do some checking on that exact thing your talking about Ron , What I'm finding out is the Brembos on the Corvette are no different that the exact same model you can buy off the shelf from Brembo. Now I can be getting some bad info I'm not sure . I think the only guy that can maybe answer that is the guy I purchased them from (MARK S) and I'm about to send him an e-mail to get his thoughts .

[dhutton]

I did do some checking on that exact thing your talking about Ron , What I'm finding out is the Brembos on the Corvette are no different that the exact same model you can buy off the shelf from Brembo. Now I can be getting some bad info I'm not sure . I think the only guy that can maybe answer that is the guy I purchased them from (MARK S) and I'm about to send him an e-mail to get his thoughts .

The piston diameters etc are in the link I posted earlier in this thread. I thought the calculations I listed in that same post would be possible with those piston diameters.

Front:

09-13 C6 ZR1
11-13 C6 Z06 Carbon
Edition
Brembo 30/34/38mm 6 8.52 sq. in. 5497.8 sq. mm

Rear:

09-13 C6 ZR1
Brembo 30mm 34mm 4 3230 sq. mm

Rotor info is in the same link.

Don

[Vegas69]

My opinion hasn't changed, I don't think you will like the results of the manual brakes on that beautiful street car. I'd be looking towards the C6 vete specs for a booster and master cylinder and do it right once. That will get you a modern brake feel with lighter pedal effort.

[Musclerodz]

My opinion hasn't changed, I don't think you will like the results of the manual brakes on that beautiful street car. I'd be looking towards the C6 vete specs for a booster and master cylinder and do it right once. That will get you a modern brake feel with lighter pedal effort.

9" dual diapragm booster with 1-1/8 master, its what I run, DSE runs, and I'm sure a few others. Once I get the prop valve dialed and pads bedded, its effortless braking and like pulling the parachute.

[Vegas69]

Bingo was her name O.

[DOOM]

Two words NO ROOM!

[Vegas69]

Whoops :D

[dhutton]

Two words NO ROOM!

Maybe hydroboost would fit. Check with Paul at Hydratech.

Don

[dontlifttoshift]

I have posted this before, I apologize if I sound like a broken record. You need clamping force or friction. A little of both or a lot of one or the other.

Assuming your hydraulics are functioning properly, it sounds like you don't have enough of either.

Do carbon brakes actually generate more braking power? Serious question. I looked around a bit and didn't see anyone that states that these brakes have a higher friction coefficient. They are lighter, and last longer (:rolleyes:), and can handle more heat than iron rotors, but do they actually stop better?

Get a pressure gauge and hook it to the front brakes and see if how much line pressure you are building. Check it a 3-4 times with moderate pedal pressure and then 3-4 more with all you got. With line pressures a known we can come up with a clamping force at the caliper.

[GregWeld]

Two words NO ROOM!



Two words - NOT NECESSARY

[dhutton]

Hey Mario. Looks like you and Donny are both in Illinois. Why don't you take the car to him and let him fix it.

Don

[GregWeld]

Hey Mario. Looks like you and Donny are both in Illinois. Why don't you take the car to him and let him fix it.

Don



How about taking it back to the builder and letting them finish their job.... and making this stuff right?? :idea:

[dhutton]

How about taking it back to the builder and letting them finish their job.... and making this stuff right?? :idea:

I think he has had plenty of time to make it right and Mario is ready to drive his car. Builder had a focus on making everything look nice. Form over function. Pretty sure Donny will make sure it stops. Just sayin and not trying to argue with you Greg... :)

Don

[GregWeld]

I think he has had plenty of time to make it right and Mario is ready to drive his car. Builder had a focus on making everything look nice. Form over function. Pretty sure Donny will make sure it stops. Just sayin and not trying to argue with you Greg... :)

Don

I understand Don - and I wasn't trying to argue either -- but paying someone ELSE to fix what the builder should have gotten right to start with -- is just letting the builder off the hook. THEY should have to LEARN from their mistakes and they should have to make good on the stuff they built and charged the customer for.

[dontlifttoshift]

......sigh.

I typed a bunch of stuff but it doesn't matter. With facts we can find the root of the problem, with snark we can talk in a circle.

[DOOM]

Hey Mario. Looks like you and Donny are both in Illinois. Why don't you take the car to him and let him fix it.

Don

Don I would do that if I was at a cross road with my builder but that's not the case here. Troy is VERY aware of what's going on . I'm going to park the car after this weekend and wait till SEMA is over and bring it down to him to sort the many issues I have with the car. He has a major build going on right now and I figure it best to wait until he's finished with the SEMA trash.

[DOOM]

I understand Don - and I wasn't trying to argue either -- but paying someone ELSE to fix what the builder should have gotten right to start with -- is just letting the builder off the hook. THEY should have to LEARN from their mistakes and they should have to make good on the stuff they built and charged the customer for.

Greg is right on the money here. But just so everyone understands Troy never bowed out . I figured there was going to be problems and I wanted to learn the in's and out's of my car . I thought some of this was going to be a EASY fix but obviously it's not . Troy is going to get the issues corrected when SEMA is over.

[dhutton]

Ok Mario. I have a brake pressure gauge you can borrow if you change your mind. I can ship it to you.

Sorry if I came off snarky. Was looking forward to you enjoying some good fall cruising before the snow flies.

Take care,
Don

[Ron in SoCal]

Mario there's a reason Brembo (and AP Racing and Wilwood and many others) don't offer CC big brake kits. It's next to impossible to develop and support unless part of a completely engineered factory system (think GM and Porsche, and yeah I know everyone already read that earlier). I have read on the Vette road racing forum of guys and vendors trying different pads on the CC system with zero improvement. Side note: I'd hate to be the guy that has to pay for the CC rotors when experimenting with the wrong pad.

I recall it was either Charley or Mark trying to run those brakes on the track (on JA I believe) and had what sounded like fairly major issues.

Wish I had something better to add, but I think your best bet is to try the factory booster / master combo and see if that works.

I'm rooting for you man!

[GregWeld]

The benefit of Carbon Ceramic rotors are a lot less weight --- longer lasting (you can go thru a bunch of pads without changing the rotor) --- and greater heat dissipation. In cold application they can actually be described as GRABBY....

It's a ROTOR...... and he has the matching calipers and pads for that part of the system. The part of the "system" that's missing --- the part that creates the hydraulic pressure.


RE: Jackass brakes/issues

Mario is NOT running ABS and racing the car (yet)..... THAT is a complex engineering issue.... but NOT Marios issue.

I'm with Dhutton...... do a pressure check at the caliper and my guess is he's simply lacking the proper pressure/volume required. Do some math -- get the right master cylinder and pedal ratio.... and see what happens.

The thing I would "worry" about now is - lacking the right pressure and driving the car -- is the system now glazed. If it was me - given the cost of these brakes I'd be parking the car while waiting to give it back to Troy to sort out.

Porsche magazine even recommends the exact same bedding process for these brakes that every other brake takes.... i.e., repeated hard stops (short version).

[Musclerodz]

Maybe hydroboost would fit. Check with Paul at Hydratech.

Don

Jody had a super short setup made for malitude, but still not sure there would be any room for it either.

[Hydratech®]

Hi Guys - As you have noticed, I don't like coming into forum discussions beating the drum with all kinds of ridiculous jazz, noise, and hype regarding our systems, so as you see I mostly lurk just to see what's cooking (actually about twice a day!). Heck, I'm actually way over in a different discussion yapping away about LED lights... ;) At any rate, I haven't been paying enough attention to some of the builds, meaning I've seen the DOOM Camaro in passing, but have not looked closely enough at any available engine compartment images (that I'm sure are right here somewhere).
Now that my name has been directly mentioned, I'm here. Would you please be so kind as to toss some engine compartment pics in here (or some links) so that I can literally take a much closer look at the master cylinder / brake booster area? I'd be curious to see what possible space constraints have been mentioned. As you know, we can definitely make that car stop like a monster by adding dramatic gains in the line pressure department.

:lateral:

[Hydratech®]

Here's a great under hood shot of Sheck's installation for visual reference:

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii200/SCOBRA48/WAAAY%20OTT/LS7_zps4t5biyh4.jpg

I asked Sheck44 how he liked his braking performance, and he said "Paul, could NOT be happier with your braking system, perfect easy install, and the braking is phenomenal .. the setup feels as close to a production performance car as you could possibly get"

http://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=50526&page=4

FYI - The widest part of the hydraulic brake assist unit is the accumulator cylinder on the driver's side, which comes in at 4 1/2" from the centerline of the master cylinder.

I know nothing looks as trick as the MC you currently have installed - nice and simple and clean. But if you need to get it handled and pad games and other mods don't quite get it, we can get that bad lad stopping to the point of retinal detachment with the amount of traction you have available.

Sooooo, I'm here - let me know how I may be of further service at any point.