If you could run a 14-16 inch wheel w/o ANY Sacrifice in handling would you?

[tyoneal]

To Everyone:

I posted a similar thread at PT.com, but I wanted to try and pick up everyone one this.


If you could run a 15 or 16 inch wheels, and not sacrifice large Disc Brakes and "R" compound tires, handling etc., would you choose that option over these larger "HOOPS"?

I personally would like to have "Pseudo-Period" correct looking wheels/tires on my g-machine. To me the Large wheel often become a glaring reminder they don't fit with the classic car styles.

I don't think I'm alone at all on this, am I?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[craig510]

You can get the R compound. The problem is 200 tw street tires and proper suspension geometry with wide tires. With most designs you have to sacrifice scrub radius because you cannot tuck the upper ball joint inside the rim.

[tyoneal]

You can get the R compound. The problem is 200 tw street tires and proper suspension geometry with wide tires. With most designs you have to sacrifice scrub radius because you cannot tuck the upper ball joint inside the rim.

I do understand exactly what you are saying, but if it was possible for no sacrifices would you prefer the smaller period correct looking wheels?

I very interested in your mental "Visual" ideas of what a PT car should look like if it were possible.

I promise this is not a, "Pie in the Sky" question, it is serious.

Thanks,

Ty

[Sieg]

With the condition of today's roads you can't have enough sidewall! :thumbsup:

[Build-It-Break-it]

16" I think is an ideal wheel for me. The look would be nascar style or trans am but I'd need 11 to 12" wide and 14"front brakes and 14.25"rear. I forget the speedtech extreme subframe offset needed but that's what I would need.
I love the handling that these cars are now capable of but I'm not really into the wheels offered. Nothing against them but for my personal car old school looks better.

[Tim john---]

Agreed, I would much prefer a 14" or 15" wheel in a wider offering. I have never been a fan of the thin side wall tires, they just look out of place on our 60"s muscle cars in my opinion.

Tim john---

[Roarvette]

I had this problem, and I went with 17" and old style wheels that are period correct. 315/35-17 and 275/40-17. 17X11 and 17X9.5 wheels.
Not into what ifs... Just do it and move on.

[tyoneal]

I had this problem, and I went with 17" and old style wheels that are period correct. 315/35-17 and 275/40-17. 17X11 and 17X9.5 wheels.
Not into what ifs... Just do it and move on.
==========================================
Roarvette:

This was part of the, "What If's", until now. This is why I am asking this question to everyone.

I solved this problem, I have a Patent that will be issued in the next few weeks, and am hoping to introduce the product that will allow, "This impossible of the past to be possible moving forward."

The "What/if's" that people have had to accept, I think will no longer be something people have to sacrifice in their car builds.

It IS a real product with a "Utility Patent", so I know it is possible, as the "what if's", were part of the Claims that the Patent was made to solve.

The comments previously mentioned, are exactly the frustrations I have been having with where the wheel industry has gone, and I wanted something different.

I am hoping that many will offer there thoughts about this subject, as a unscientific sampling of the want's and needs of the Pro-Touring/Vintage car after market.

Further, if there are a large number of people who love the big hoops, and that type of look is preferred to them, I would also be very interested in their input and opinions.

Also, if there are issues that I have NOT thought about in the design, the faster I can be made aware of these item(s), the faster and better product I will be able to bring to the Market.

I ask that you and the rest of the people who enjoy these cars will participate in helping me bring a better solution to an issue that been a "pet peeve" of mine for a long time.

I encourage you to add your thoughts, or wants, in a product that does solve this problem.

Thanks, I hope you take the time to read my response back to you..

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

With the condition of today's roads you can't have enough sidewall! :thumbsup:

==================================

I hear you there, the big problem is with the taller side wall, you lose a tremendous amount of handling potential.

That's a terrible thing to sacrifice, when through superior materials, and a well tuned suspension, at least some of the problems with the roads could be moderated.

Thanks for the input.

So you prefer the taller side wall for it's ability to help absorb imperfections in the road surface, not necessarily because you like the look of the Vintage/Taller sidewall.

Is this correct?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[Build-It-Break-it]

How long until they come to market? What style of wheel is being offered? What "issues" have you addressed to get the brakes to fit? What spindles and steering arms will the wheels clear and at what wheel diameter?

[tyoneal]

I had this problem, and I went with 17" and old style wheels that are period correct. 315/35-17 and 275/40-17. 17X11 and 17X9.5 wheels.
Not into what ifs... Just do it and move on.

================================

BTW: I love the Grand Sport C2's. This is a nice take on a slightly alternative "Grand Sport". While working on mine, it cool to see some of your thoughts that created something similar yet unique.

Ty

[Ketzer]

My opinion just from the visual...
I guess I'm in that same minority. Old muscle cars need some tire sidewall to have the right "look". 17s are plenty big although some cars can pull off 18s and not look too bad (2nd Gen F bodies for example).

One very popular style that really looks off to me is a smaller wheel on front and giant hoops on the rear 18/20 combos. I'm all for the rear being a larger diameter but it needs to be in the tire, not the wheel.

On the performance side of it...
I would be very interested in comments from some of the dedicated track guys on how much "feel" they get from a 17 vs 18s vs 20 comparison...
Ok, sure...if you have double the sidewall there is going to be more tire flex, but once you become adjusted to the different feel, does it really significantly hurt the handling...?

Jeff-

[clill]

I think if you wanted the tall tire look from a distance you could machine rims that part of the rim was done in black to look like the tire. Like how the guys are doing the whitewall look by painting part of the rim.

[BMR Sales]

I used to run Smaller Wheels on my Porsches, but due to Tire availability, I've gone up in size and have really gotten used to the look

[NOT A TA]

I think it will come down to tire availability. There's currently not enough options in the 14-15" high performance tire market to please everyone AND I don't know if tire manufacturers could, or are willing to try to design, 14-15" tires that could match the performance of the shorter sidewall 18" performance tires. Sales of high performance 14-15" tires would be a very limited market at this point.

I've moved up to 18's on my 2nd gen Firebird which is more of a road track car, not only because of the brake clearance, but also because the options in DOT R 17" sizes has started to dwindle.

I've got an 81 Malibu street car I'm building with a sort of backdated look. 14" wheels with radial TA's, not much out there for performance 14" tires.

[Roarvette]

Cool, I look forward to what you have come up with. If F1 cars can still run 13" wheels, obviously it is possible to get looks and performance.

[DBasher]

I like sidewall.

[tyoneal]

I like sidewall.

Your Car is Stunning!

I love it, and yes I to love sidewalls.

Awesome ride.

Ty O'Neal

[DBasher]

Your Car is Stunning!

I love it, and yes I to love sidewalls.

Awesome ride.

Ty O'Neal

Not mine, it does look "correct" though.

Curious to see what you've got going on. When are you spilling the beans?

[TheJDMan]

I was a staunch 15" wheel guy for 45 years but I reluctantly went with 18" wheels to accommodate big brakes and modern suspension components. It took me a while to get accustomed to the bigger wheel diameter but I like the look now within reason.

This car has been my inspiration for years.
http://www.prismacars.com/images/camaro.jpg

This is what I built.

http://hayes-ent.com/images/Camaro/CAMARO3.jpg

[tyoneal]

To Everyone:

I am really appreciative of everyones thoughts and opinions, they are very helpful.

Do you have some pictures of what wheels you would run, if you could, "In a Perfect World", with no consequence or drawbacks in performance?

Like the Full size picture posted above, that combination looks fantastic.

Please post your opinions of the most Bas Ass Tire/Wheel combinations you know of.

Thanks

Ty O'Neal

[DBasher]

Have you got any more details on what it is you're doing?

As far as wheels, these will do.

[Sheck44]

I was a staunch 15" wheel guy for 45 years but I reluctantly went with 18" wheels to accommodate big brakes and modern suspension components. It took me a while to get accustomed to the bigger wheel diameter but I like the look now within reason.

This car has been my inspiration for years.
http://www.prismacars.com/images/camaro.jpg

This is what I built.

http://hayes-ent.com/images/Camaro/CAMARO3.jpg

Steve .. wouldn't want to see your car ANY other way than the way it sits today
It's perfect. NOT a fan of big sidewalls unless on a 4X4

Cheers
Steve

[slimjim]

This picture I LOVE! and I don't know anything more about the car, but I want to.
http://i.imgur.com/8vDyJRz.jpg

[BMR Sales]

Cool, I look forward to what you have come up with. If F1 cars can still run 13" wheels, obviously it is possible to get looks and performance.

The reason F-1 does that is that the Suspension/Tub is so Stiff, the sidewalls of tires take all the Bumps, etc

[Build-It-Break-it]

This set up looks killer. He's a member I believe

[SBDave]

I do like the smaller size but tire availability is the concern. I'm currently running 16" Superlite replicas with Toyo R888 in 255/50R16. I picked out this total package and there are very few other tires in that size.


Have you seen the RS wheels? I really like the black wheels with the center caps but would prefer 18" diameter.

http://roadstershop.com/wheel/rs-oe1-wheel/

[badbu68]

Suspension interference and ability to run common large brake setups is a concern when running 15s.

[tyoneal]

Not mine, it does look "correct" though.

Curious to see what you've got going on. When are you spilling the beans?

It will be soon with 3-4 weeks.

1. I want to receive the actual Patent Documents so possible manufacturers will know exactly what I have and want to bring to market.
2. I need to set up some Business paperwork, because I would like to become a part of SEMA if I could. They are an outstanding organization that work with people trying bring new products to market.
3. They possess much of the machinery necessary to quickly prototype new products, so actual full size pieces of different configurations can be made and refined quickly.
4. Digitizing of models, and coverting it into numeric coding so actual pieces can be made.
5. The goal is to figure out the most efficient way to go from a prototype, and integrated it into a efficient manufacturing process, so items can be ordered and made, and the quality and consistency can be maintained.
6) Depending on the capabilities of the business, high and low pressure casting could be a possible way to create a specific quality and strength of an item, there is also forging, CNC cutting of billet material, as well as the possibilities of using graphite composites, depending on what the market demands are, and the advancements of available materials and processes.

These are all items that need to be explored with the different manufacturers, plus whether or not they see the items as a complementary item to what they are already selling, or a way to diversify or broaden their own product lines.

Once items like this have been decided on, and the economics of adding to, or passing on a product are decided, then the item can either be made, or another manufacturer can be sought. There is also the possibility of working out a private label arrangement. Some companies who have excess production capabilities and are looking to fill the down time by taking on the parts for another company, or taking on the part for themselves.

It is a process that will take a bit of time, however all the information I can gather in the mean time can often make the process move faster. The fewer unknowns there are, the faster a company will be able to decide which way would be most beneficial to their (The Company's) long term goals of growth and productivity.

Hope this helps.

I am looking forward to speaking with a number of people to see what the "Landscape" looks like for the Wheel. With luck and timing it may be available in the near future.

Additionally there are a number of applications for this produce that go beyond this slice of the total market. This is the reason I was willing to go the distance with it. If it didn't work one place, there were a number of different options available.

I would prefer for this market to be where it could begin, but in business, "it begins where it begins, and sometimes it doesn't begin at all." That's the risk that people take to try and create something new. Sometimes the market acceptance is not there to justify a full scale line, and others it could be that current economic conditions either in the market or in production techniques take it down, or great designs can't be made because the materials and processes to build them haven't been created yet.

We will have to see. One way or the other, I know I would regret not trying to solve this problem, if I didn't try. So following through is the only way to know for sure if indeed something is viable.

Does this make sense?

Ask anymore questions you want and I will trying be as forthcoming as I can with an answer.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

BTW: my keys sometimes get stuck or they don't "Type" the letter I pushed. I think there are some gremlins around the house from time to time that sometimes spill things onto the keyboard that don't exactly improve the efficiency of the keyboard. If they weren't so cute (and related) one could get rid of them, but such is life.

We all have our sacrifices to make. If you see this I hope you will understand what the problem might be. ;)

[tyoneal]

I was a staunch 15" wheel guy for 45 years but I reluctantly went with 18" wheels to accommodate big brakes and modern suspension components. It took me a while to get accustomed to the bigger wheel diameter but I like the look now within reason.

This car has been my inspiration for years.
http://www.prismacars.com/images/camaro.jpg

This is what I built.

http://hayes-ent.com/images/Camaro/CAMARO3.jpg

=============================
Both cars are stunning and I remember the "Trans AM" car from way back. You did a really nice job with it.

[Solid LT1]

The "Dumbing Down of the USA" brought to you by Ghetto Values......smaller diameter wheels accelerate quicker and stop faster....you need to look no further than GoKarts and old F-1 cars (6 wheeler Tyrell) If you know the slightest elements of physics you constantly ask yourself what are these IDIOTS thinking....when looking at current performance wheels....someone really needs to come up with a solution besides "Cooper Cobra" and old "BFG T/A" crap tires for all the 60's/70's era muscle cars out there....maybe petitioning Coker Tires....I know Pirelli/Michelin have some offering for vintage Ferraris but many won't cross over to a Detroit era muscle car.

[Solid LT1]

Suspension interference and ability to run common large brake setups is a concern when running 15s.

If NASCAR stock cars can race on 15" wheels.....there are brakes easily available that no Pro Touring car will be able to overwhelm....when you put stupidly large wheel/tire combination on a vehicle....you have to deal with the added forces of a larger diameter mass and upsize brake rotor diameters....its just IDIOCY! Leave big hoops to the ghetto cruisers and put common sense engineering back into performance vintage cars. Disclaimer...my wife's new AMG Benz has the optional 21" ghetto hoopties on it....didn't like the styling of the 20" wheels.....

[QuintinBrothers]

We get so many different customers in the shop looking at running different style wheels. Some absolutely LOVE the old school 5 spoke 15" Crager look while some of the younger crowd is liking the bigger wheels. Right now its about an even split.. as far as handling goes I ALWAYS recommend a 17" or bigger wheel to run on ANY car.. but then again, on the cars that come in the shop just looking for straight line performance, usually the wheel size goes down. If I personally was picking, I would probably run a Black Weld V-Series wheel on everything I own.

[214Chevy]

Here's my idiot of an answer. I am not remotely interested in racing in the least bit. I'll never track my car...autocross, circle, straight-line or any other type of racing. Nothing wrong with the sport, I'm just not into to it. With that in mind, performance isn't an issue for me. So, for me just cruising around town, wanting to look good and having a nice car, I want my wheel wells filled up and I like the look of bigger wheels. Now, allow me to clarify my statement of "bigger wheels." I'm only talking 18" or 19"...nothing bigger than a 20" and I reserve a 20 for larger cars like later model Chevelle's, Nova's, etc. because they are larger cars. I'm not down with the donk look of 24's and 26's on cars that are lifted 4" just to fit a huge set of wheels. I know I'm pretty much a loner here, but everything's not for everyone and to each his own. I love to see other guys race, I'm just not a racer. I'm just a guy who wants a nice car to cruise around town in and have everyone offer to buy it from me just so I can say, "No!"

[tyoneal]

I do like the smaller size but tire availability is the concern. I'm currently running 16" Superlite replicas with Toyo R888 in 255/50R16. I picked out this total package and there are very few other tires in that size.


Have you seen the RS wheels? I really like the black wheels with the center caps but would prefer 18" diameter.

http://roadstershop.com/wheel/rs-oe1-wheel/

=================================
Thanks for the input.

Those are very nice. I appreciate you taking the time to post a link, I am taking a lot of notes on this. I really want to get these out, I there will be some logistics to work out, I will keep everyone posted.

Please keep giving any thoughts you think would help guide things along.

I sincerely appreciate it,

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

The "Dumbing Down of the USA" brought to you by Ghetto Values......smaller diameter wheels accelerate quicker and stop faster....you need to look no further than GoKarts and old F-1 cars (6 wheeler Tyrell) If you know the slightest elements of physics you constantly ask yourself what are these IDIOTS thinking....when looking at current performance wheels....someone really needs to come up with a solution besides "Cooper Cobra" and old "BFG T/A" crap tires for all the 60's/70's era muscle cars out there....maybe petitioning Coker Tires....I know Pirelli/Michelin have some offering for vintage Ferraris but many won't cross over to a Detroit era muscle car.
================================================== ===
Solid LT1:

I'm not saying it is impossible, but I have had zero progress with my attempts down this path. So I decided to try to solve the problem another way.

================================================== ==
From the beginning

As an enthusiast that decided to try to take the other "path," through my own efforts, try to attempt to fix an issue, and/or bring any new product to market, I have these 5 goals.

1) I hope this idea will work, and the effort I put into this venture will be successful, and solve the intended problems, or the lack of a product for this market.

2) I hope, that if the idea does indeed meet peoples expectations to give "US" (You and me) a livable way to get our cars to perform, and look "Correct", or at least gives "US" (You and me) a viable and acceptable way of dealing with the lack of sizes, types, and available Tires and Wheels in the market,

3) Further, that the market penetration can be as made smoothly and as quickly as possible. (I would like to have these on my car yesterday if I could, and if your like me, you want the same thing.)

4) Also, I hope the current "Market Suppliers" will either work with me, if they want to implement the idea(s), or not resist another US (USA) supplier that targets this niche of the aftermarket, that has until this moment not be filled. (assuming it does what it is designed to do, to a level as to satisfy the customer.

5) Lastly, I really don't want to get into any legal issues with any Market Suppliers that don't want to do what's best for the aftermarket, which is to bring the best possible innovations, and choices to the people that love building and customizing their cars. (or Dreams whatever the case maybe)

=========================================

Sounds like more of something that one would put in their business plan to a banker, but this discussion with everyone has really helped focus my thoughts, and ideas.

Thanks for reading all this extra stuff, but for those that have already entered the market successfully, I am just trying to find my way through things, and for those who are thinking about doing the something on your own, at least some of these thoughts will probably cross your minds as well sooner or later.

Take care and thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[badbu68]

If NASCAR stock cars can race on 15" wheels.....there are brakes easily available that no Pro Touring car will be able to overwhelm....when you put stupidly large wheel/tire combination on a vehicle....you have to deal with the added forces of a larger diameter mass and upsize brake rotor diameters....its just IDIOCY! Leave big hoops to the ghetto cruisers and put common sense engineering back into performance vintage cars. Disclaimer...my wife's new AMG Benz has the optional 21" ghetto hoopties on it....didn't like the styling of the 20" wheels.....

I didn't say that it couldn't be done, I said it was a concern. If you want to put stock car brakes on your car, be my guest. I'd rather have upgraded brakes from a production vehicle so I'd have widely available replacements. There are short comings to every option. My current setup required me to stay with 12" front and rear so I can use my current 15" wheel/tire setup along with my 18" setup.

[WSSix]

Ty I don't have any pictures to post but Steve's 68 is to me the perfect blend of wheel diameter and tire thickness. It's the look I've gone for with my car as well. We both happen to be running 18's since we're similar size cars. I'd venture a guess and say 18's are probably the most common wheel size for performance oriented aftermarket wheels. I'm not a fan of wheels over 18" on a classic unless it's on a bigger car like Marcus's Chevelle. I can see that sitting on 19s and 20s with nice tires and looking perfect. It's got much large wheel wells to fill though.

Good luck with whatever you've come up with. I look forward to the reveal.

[tyoneal]

Ty I don't have any pictures to post but Steve's 68 is to me the perfect blend of wheel diameter and tire thickness. It's the look I've gone for with my car as well. We both happen to be running 18's since we're similar size cars. I'd venture a guess and say 18's are probably the most common wheel size for performance oriented aftermarket wheels. I'm not a fan of wheels over 18" on a classic unless it's on a bigger car like Marcus's Chevelle. I can see that sitting on 19s and 20s with nice tires and looking perfect. It's got much large wheel wells to fill though.

Good luck with whatever you've come up with. I look forward to the reveal.
=============================
SSix660137:

Are you referring to "Bad Penny". If so, I have enjoyed watching that car for many years, and yes unless it had changed considerably it is fine both visually, and from a performance perspective.

If I have the wrong "Steve" in mind, if you wouldn't mind correcting me, I would appreciate it. I thoroughly enjoy seeing a well sorted, exceptional car Pro-Touring car.

Thanks for posting.

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

Any thoughts on these other US Made Wheel manufacturers?

1) bbs-usa.com
2) americanracing.com

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

It seems that some of the wheel manufacturers also sell these wheels, so it might be a moot questions, as if newer elements were wanted, the Custom Manufacturers could just be inspired by some of the other lines they carry and produce a wheel to meet the newer specifications alone with the desired look that is wanted.

[WSSix]

I was referring to the blue 68 a page or two back in this thread. Though Bad Penny is also a great car.

[tyoneal]

I was referring to the blue 68 a page or two back in this thread. Though Bad Penny is also a great car.

Is that "Slim Jim's" car you are firing to?

BTW: if Slimjim is out there, Please post some more pictures that car is Bu-Ti-Ful!

[slimjim]

Is that "Slim Jim's" car you are firing to?

BTW: if Slimjim is out there, Please post some more pictures that car is Bu-Ti-Ful!

I'm always here... too much maybe.
But I think he's referring to steve's 68, the picture I posted was of a 69 I came across on Weld's instagram account and I can't find any more information on it unfortunately

[tyoneal]

I'm always here... too much maybe.
But I think he's referring to steve's 68, the picture I posted was of a 69 I came across on Weld's instagram account and I can't find any more information on it unfortunately

Here, not a bad place to be, and rarely too much.

It nice to have a place to to hang while relaxing with a lot of like minded people.

[DBasher]

What ever happened with this idea of small wheels/big brakes?

[tyoneal]

What ever happened with this idea of small wheels/big brakes?

========================

Dear DBasher:

I'm glad you asked, I've been meaning to update everyone.

Patent Issued, Joined SEMA, and Joined the Tire and Wheel Committee.

Want to start prototyping as soon as possible, I am planning of going to California, in the very near future to take advantage of their prototyping equipment.

I want to have a full size prototype to present to possible manufacturers. I think there is a broad application for this and hopefully the manufacturers will feel the same way.

I am very happy to be moving forward with this and hope I can have something in place soon. It is a several tiered exercise to bring something new to market.

I hope I have decent success with this that will help everyone involved have fun, be safe, and enhance the appearance with their cars.
===========================
I must say:

All this said, I want to say as a husband blessed with a wonderful wife, I have responsibilities I must due diligence with to keep my promises, and duty. She deserves this and I am happy to give whatever comfort is necessary to make her life happy and provide her with plenty of support.

Regarding the above statement, unfortunately I've have had a short delay, as my wife's health has had some issues that needed to be handled properly, and I have had to make sure she is stable and properly taken care of. She is not a detriment in anyway to moving forward with this, and I am happy to be able to provide this for her.

I wanted to make sure this is mentioned up front, as I would hate to give anyone the wrong opinion about my priorities.
===========================

I appreciate the inquiry, and am happy to provide progress on this product. Please feel free to ask anything, or if you have any ideas or experiences you would be open to sharing that might be helpful in this endeavor, I would graciously welcome them.

Please give me any feedback, I do enjoy this opportunity to visit about this, and look forward to bringing it public.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[slimjim]

You're a great guy, never let our toys get in the way of what is more important.
Good to see something innovative and exciting for the future.

[tyoneal]

You're a great guy, never let our toys get in the way of what is more important.
Good to see something innovative and exciting for the future.

=========================
Slim Jim:

Thank you for the kind words.

Ty O'Neal