I give up with brake bleeding

[vstol]

My build is below and I will tell you its not my first build but the most frustrating. I have a Wilwood manual MC and it was bench bled before being attached. I have zero leaks which took a while. I used the mity vac to bleed the calibers but I was getting tiny air bubbles which I thought was from the connection with the hose. I went through a lot of brake fluid but still had bubbles but not the typical air in the system. I put the speed bleeders back on and bled them again. The pedal is still soft. To add salt in my wound I started the car which is on jacks and put it into second gear and stepped on the brake pedal only to watch it continue to spin. I am truly at a loss. This is the first time I have used a Manual Wilwood setup and help out there will be much appreciated. Thanks :bur2:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=44704

[dhutton]

If you remove the lines on the master and plug the ports will it build pressure and give you a firm pedal?

Don

[vstol]

yes I had the plugs in after bench bleeding the MC and when I hooked it up to the pedal I could barely move the pedal. I noticed when I was bleeding it the reservoir went down a lot faster in the front than the rear. Volume was low coming out the rears. As I was pulling the brake fluid with the Mity vac they were the same.

[carkrazy1987]

maybe try bleeding it backwards. put a hose on the bleeder into fresh fluid, and install your mighty vac at the lines at the master cylinder. ive also had good luck with making a master cylinder cap, and adding a fitting to the top so i can lightly pressurize the master cylinder 15-20 psi to help push fluid threw. you can also try pluging the master cylinder ports one at a time to see if its a problem with the front, or rear.

[dhutton]

I have had good success with a Phoenix reverse bleeder I picked up on eBay.

Don

[vstol]

I was thinking of plugging the MC one at a time and heard a lot about the phoenix V-12 bleeder. Hate to spend $200 or the price of the MC. Maybe chuck Wilwood and go elsewhere.

[dhutton]

I was thinking of plugging the MC one at a time and heard a lot about the phoenix V-12 bleeder. Hate to spend $200 or the price of the MC. Maybe chuck Wilwood and go elsewhere.

Plugging one side at a time is a good idea. It doesn't sound like the master is the issue at this point.

Are you running stainless brake lines? They can be a b*tch to seal. Maybe try some conical seals.

Don

[vstol]

Not SS just steel. I do have a wildwood Proportional valve inline to the rear should that be adjusted one way or the other? I am also going to shorten the rod today maybe its not coming back far enough?? also no leaks at all. Thanks

[dhutton]

Not SS just steel. I do have a wildwood Proportional valve inline to the rear should that be adjusted one way or the other? I am also going to shorten the rod today maybe its not coming back far enough?? also no leaks at all. Thanks

Prop valve should be adjusted for max rear brake. The direction you turn it is counterintuitive so look at the knob carefully. AMHIK... :lol:

Don

[vstol]

ok after 1 1/2 hrs of bleeding the brakes the old fashion way the fronts have no air in them at all and work with very little pedal. The rears just when I think they do not have air in them I try to stop the rear wheels to stop at idle and I can stop them but it requires the pedal to the floor. Not good I rebleed them and the same thing. I think I will stop for a while and see if a shop around here has a good bleed tool and can do them. My head is flat from beating it against the wall

[Che70velle]

I've had this problem recently. I was getting the very fine bubbles with my vacuum bleeder. I removed the bleeders from the caliper, and put red wheel bearing grease on the threads of the bleeders liberally. I did this at each corner, and had a perfect pedal in 45 minutes. The ultra fine bubbles were coming from the bleeder screws threads. I went and purchased a new vacuum bleeder during the process, thinking I had an issue with the bleeder. Just about drove me crazy...

[vstol]

I've had this problem recently. I was getting the very fine bubbles with my vacuum bleeder. I removed the bleeders from the caliper, and put red wheel bearing grease on the threads of the bleeders liberally. I did this at each corner, and had a perfect pedal in 45 minutes. The ultra fine bubbles were coming from the bleeder screws threads. I went and purchased a new vacuum bleeder during the process, thinking I had an issue with the bleeder. Just about drove me crazy...

Thanks I am seeing that in the rear calibers but the fronts have no air at all. The calibers move each time we pump the brakes but just no bit and the pedal is sift

[vstol]

I have had good success with a Phoenix reverse bleeder I picked up on eBay.

Don

Which Phoenix bleeder did you pick up and what method worked for you? Thanks

[dhutton]

Which Phoenix bleeder did you pick up and what method worked for you? Thanks

This one. I just push fluid from the calipers back to the master.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phoenix-Systems-2003-B-Reverse-Fluid-Injection-Brake-Clutch-Bleeder-/182455457695?hash=item2a7b31579f:g:pq8AAOSwCGVX2GM H

Don

[vstol]

This one. I just push fluid from the calipers back to the master.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phoenix-Systems-2003-B-Reverse-Fluid-Injection-Brake-Clutch-Bleeder-/182455457695?hash=item2a7b31579f:g:pq8AAOSwCGVX2GM H

Don

Don was this the vender you bought it from, $134 is a lot cheaper than Jegs at $184.

[vstol]

Just ordered it from Jegs they matched the price. We will see

[vstol]

Well I reverse bled my rear brakes with my new phoenix brake bleeding system, no air bubbles after a few pumps and the pedal is soft like when I start to back up, 1/2 mph the pedal goes to the floor and is very soft and the car keeps rolling. I give up will need someone to fix it. I have never had a problem in my other builds.:waveflag:

[dhutton]

Well I reverse bled my rear brakes with my new phoenix brake bleeding system, no air bubbles after a few pumps and the pedal is soft like when I start to back up, 1/2 mph the pedal goes to the floor and is very soft and the car keeps rolling. I give up will need someone to fix it. I have never had a problem in my other builds.:waveflag:

Did you stop after a few pumps? You need to push fluid all the way through the system and a couple of pumps won't do that. I try to push a half pint or more from each caliper.

Don

[vstol]

Don I pushed a lot of fluid through until there were no more bubbles. I did take a pause after 3-4 pumps since the reservoir would fill up. This is not rocket science nor my first build but it is kicking my ass. There must be air in the master that I am unable to flush. The fronts we bled the old fashion way and the air went out quickly. The front end was slightly higher but I caught that before we bled the rears so the reservoir is level, the rear is higher than the front. Thanks I will call Wilwood again.

[vstol]

I will try bleeding the MC one more time but not with their plastic fittings but with std brake lines and have them go back into the reservoir

[JKnight]

I've personally encountered two bad Wilwood master cylinders (brand new) and heard of many others that just won't ever bleed out. All were exchanged for another that worked, but I have little confidence in them. I'd bet that a different MC with the same bench bleed process you used would get a good pedal.

[vstol]

Thanks this is my second MC from them. I will give it one more time

[JKnight]

Oh, geeze, didn't realize that. Was the first one bad as well? Similar issues?

[vstol]

The first one would not seal at the rear fittings and I went through 3 brake lines and still leaked (wept) at the fitting.

[vstol]

ok bled the heck out this MC and no air so I will reverse bleed the system tomorrow.

[carkrazy1987]

im going to buy stock in brake fluid. hopefully reverse bleeding it finally works. may have to go with a nice rusty gm master cylinder if it doesnt work.

[JKnight]

Well, sounds promising. I used a cheapo CPP master and was pleasantly shocked at how quickly the system bled out. Sounds like getting a master with no issues is going to be the key to your system working out.

[vstol]

Well, sounds promising. I used a cheapo CPP master and was pleasantly shocked at how quickly the system bled out. Sounds like getting a master with no issues is going to be the key to your system working out.

was it manual or assisted?

[JKnight]

I have power brakes, vacuum assisted. Bled using the old pump pump hold method, engine off obviously.

[GregWeld]

Thanks this is my second MC from them. I will give it one more time



I didn't go back to read the whole thread but HOPE that you bench bleed these Masters before installing --- it's a critical step.

[vstol]

I did thanks

[vstol]

No air in the master cylinder and reverse bled all four corners and no air. I have brakes just not sure how much since I only moved the car back and forth in the garage since the steering wheel is not attached. That said the pedal feels soft as my power brakes. I have not driven a manual brake system since 77 but I thought it would certainly take more pressure to stop it. Wilwood said to go with the 15/16ths bore for my car with C4 brakes but I noticed that the C3 manual master cylinders are 1 inch bore.... I might just said @@#$% Wilwood and go to a plan old master cylinder for the C3. This is not rocket science and not my first build but my first with Wilwood. Thanks for your comments

[GregWeld]

No air in the master cylinder and reverse bled all four corners and no air. I have brakes just not sure how much since I only moved the car back and forth in the garage since the steering wheel is not attached. That said the pedal feels soft as my power brakes. I have not driven a manual brake system since 77 but I thought it would certainly take more pressure to stop it. Wilwood said to go with the 15/16ths bore for my car with C4 brakes but I noticed that the C3 manual master cylinders are 1 inch bore.... I might just said @@#$% Wilwood and go to a plan old master cylinder for the C3. This is not rocket science and not my first build but my first with Wilwood. Thanks for your comments



Yep - the smaller the bore - the more pressure it will make - but the softer the pedal will be....

However -- You also haven't bedded the pads/rotors..... and just pushing on the pedal isn't going to be real world pedal feel.

You can ALWAYS change the master if you don't like it once it's on the road.

[vstol]

Thanks Greg this has been painful but I appreciate your advice. Do you think it would get firmer after the pads and rotors are bedded?

[GregWeld]

That's impossible to tell via the internet -- but my guess is -- you're pushing on the brakes far harder than they probably need to be pushed on - until you're actually driving.... and then if you don't like them - change out the master to a 1" or whatever it needs to be. I just don't think you're going to get real brake feel sitting in the garage.

[vstol]

thanks

[Timberline]

Vstol do you have an update ?

[Vegas69]

Have you tested the system for leaks? Put moderate pressure on the pedal for 3 minutes and it should stay rock solid and the pedal should not drop at all.

[vstol]

I will get it on the road soon as I just got my appraisal and insurance approved.

[vstol]

Just got on the road for the first time and not over 30 and the brakes are poor. Again new pads, rotors etc but still I should have better stopping power, I will go out again tomorrow. As it is they are not safe. Kevin

[vstol]

Greg I see Wilwood recalled their 7/8yths bore MC. I think I am done with Wilwood do you have a suggestion with another MC? Thanks

[dhutton]

I am going to guess the issue is the bore, not the fact it is Wilwood. This is not voodoo. You can calculate your bore. Details in this thread:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/104584-Brake-sizing-and-selection-tutorial-featuring-Ron-Sutton-and-Tobin-of-KORE3

Caliper specs are here:

http://lukeskaff.com/projects/car/third-gen-f-body-brake-upgrade/upgrade-options-and-measurements/

Don

[GregWeld]

Greg I see Wilwood recalled their 7/8yths bore MC. I think I am done with Wilwood do you have a suggestion with another MC? Thanks


Yes they did --- certain codes on them --- not every one they ever built - but close! Had one on the Mustang track car!

Baer makes a real trick looking billet model.... if you're looking for "fancy" under the hood.... and I used a Tilton in the '33 (although it was dual singles with a balance bar).... AP Racing also has MANY styles of M/C and all kinds of mount options.


http://baer.com/Remaster.html


http://tiltonracing.com/product-category/brake/master-cylinders/


https://www.apracing.com/products/race_car/master_cylinders/flange_mounted_types.aspx

[GregWeld]

I am going to guess the issue is the bore, not the fact it is Wilwood. This is not voodoo. You can calculate your bore. Details in this thread:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/104584-Brake-sizing-and-selection-tutorial-featuring-Ron-Sutton-and-Tobin-of-KORE3

Caliper specs are here:

http://lukeskaff.com/projects/car/third-gen-f-body-brake-upgrade/upgrade-options-and-measurements/

Don



TOTALLY AGREE!!


Lots of people get the bore, and or, pedal ratio wrong..... using a power brake pedal ratio on a manual master cylinder is a very common "mistake". But so too, is the wrong bore diameter.

[vstol]

The std bore on a regular MC for the 71 corvette was 1 inch. I spoke with Wilwood many many times before going with 15/16ths since I had C-4 calibers and they used a 3/4 bore. The ratio is just shy of 6:1. I took it up to 45mph today, it stops but the brakes do not lock and its all pedal. Need to have good brakes before letting her loose, but the LS-3 427 is going to be sweet. This is crazy, I never had an issue before on my other builds. Thanks

[vstol]

I am going to guess the issue is the bore, not the fact it is Wilwood. This is not voodoo. You can calculate your bore. Details in this thread:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/104584-Brake-sizing-and-selection-tutorial-featuring-Ron-Sutton-and-Tobin-of-KORE3

Caliper specs are here:

http://lukeskaff.com/projects/car/third-gen-f-body-brake-upgrade/upgrade-options-and-measurements/

Don

Interesting info I will peel it back but it showed a bore of 1.25 front and 1 inch rear. So if mine is 15/16 assuming it is not enough would that be a possible issue? Soft pedal not enough fluid going to the calibers?

[dhutton]

The std bore on a regular MC for the 71 corvette was 1 inch. I spoke with Wilwood many many times before going with 15/16ths since I had C-4 calibers and they used a 3/4 bore. The ratio is just shy of 6:1. I took it up to 45mph today, it stops but the brakes do not lock and its all pedal. Need to have good brakes before letting her loose, but the LS-3 427 is going to be sweet. This is crazy, I never had an issue before on my other builds. Thanks

Do the math.... :)

Don

[dhutton]

Interesting info I will peel it back but it showed a bore of 1.25 front and 1 inch rear. So if mine is 15/16 assuming it is not enough would that be a possible issue? Soft pedal not enough fluid going to the calibers?

I think you are confusing caliper bore with master cylinder bore. You use your caliper bore and pedal ratio etc to calculate the required master cylinder bore.

Don

[vstol]

I was referring to the thread for MC which had a larger bore. Going through the thread for the math formula. Thanks

[GregWeld]

THere is also a BEDDING procedure with brand new rotors and pads.....

[cluxford]

I've just gone through something similar for different reasons. Booster died. replaced it and wow. I think in the 5 years I've owned the car the booster never worked right, as the new booster has the pedal so soft it's crazy and then when it does brake it locks em up.

Didn't have a prop valve it does now.

For me the soft brake pedal is that the car originally had manual brakes, not assisted. The pedal ratio is 6:1 which is not ideal for a boosted application. A 4:1 or 5:1 ratio is what's required.

Assume from reading that article this is something you've also considered. I'm looking for a new pedal now

[GregWeld]

I've just gone through something similar for different reasons. Booster died. replaced it and wow. I think in the 5 years I've owned the car the booster never worked right, as the new booster has the pedal so soft it's crazy and then when it does brake it locks em up.

Didn't have a prop valve it does now.

For me the soft brake pedal is that the car originally had manual brakes, not assisted. The pedal ratio is 6:1 which is not ideal for a boosted application. A 4:1 or 5:1 ratio is what's required.

Assume from reading that article this is something you've also considered. I'm looking for a new pedal now




No need for a new pedal!! Just remove it -- it's simple to take out -- and drill a new hole in it for the proper ratio (move it down toward the bottom of the pedal about an 1" or 2"). DONE.

[cluxford]

Greg, I was looking at that, my question is angle. I have to take the pedal out tomorrow to measure. I know it's 6:1 as that's what the chassis manual says (car only had manual brakes from factory, no power assist). I'm concerned new hole will result in too great an angle and may result in a "sticking" situation. Guess I will find out more tomorrow when I remove it. I agree it probably only needs a 1" move on the hole.

[Hydratech®]

This post is only for advanced fabricators that have the skill, knowledge, and experience to do this properly (!).

If you cannot relocate the pedal rod connection point without causing a linkage bind condition, there IS one more alternate option that some do not consider in these discussions, and that is to cut the pedal and lengthen it. This should only be done with a very powerful TIG / Stick welder and very experienced welding skills...

This can effectively increase the mechanical brake pedal ratio considerably, but will make the pad of the pedal lower which poses some limitations as to how far you can go.

:cheers:

[vstol]

I spoke with Tobin (Kore 3) and he normally uses a 7/8ths bore on his C5 setup which has a larger area contact. After he spent a few minutes he believes my pedal should be a lot firmer so I will re-bleed them one more time. He suggested removing the lines one more time and plug one so I bleed them one at a time. I will try this weekend and see what happens. Thanks for your help. :waveflag:

[dhutton]

I used a 7/8 master with C5 brakes and I found braking to be OK but not what I was hoping for. Went to a more aggressive pad compound if I remember right.

Don

[GregWeld]

7/8th MC is just about all I've ever used... and the brakes have always been stellar! I've put on Baers - Wilwoods - and any number of other combinations.

Did you check the Wilwood MC to see if it's one of their recalled versions??

[vstol]

7/8th MC is just about all I've ever used... and the brakes have always been stellar! I've put on Baers - Wilwoods - and any number of other combinations.

Did you check the Wilwood MC to see if it's one of their recalled versions??


I will call them tomorrow. So what I am hearing is 7/8ths more pressure than 15/16ths but softer pedal?

[Vegas69]

I'd stick with the 15/16t until you verify it's not a math problem or air. I personally didn't like the 7/8 due to pedal travel.

[vstol]

After I bled the MC I put caps in and checked for air. I could not push the pedal and it did not move after holding it for a while so I feel pretty darn sure the MC is bled correctly. I might re-bleed the system one more time. From what I have learned dropping down to 7/8ths the pedal would be softer.

[vstol]

Anyone heard that the E-brake should be engaged before bleeding the rear brakes. On the C4 it is just using the piston vice a rear drum unit.

[dhutton]

I seem to recall that it needs to be properly adjusted. When they use that style caliper on some swaps you have to unbolt the caliper and rotate it so the bleeder is at the top to get all the air out. Not sure if that applies here.

Don

[vstol]

Just went Tobin (Kore3) suggestion and bought the CPP 15/16ths MC to fit my car then I might go with it boosted if this is not enough which should be fine. Std setup for manual is 1 inch bore. Thanks for all your help, I will let you know how it goes. This retired Marine has had enough.

[dhutton]

Just went Tobin (Kore3) suggestion and bought the CPP 15/16ths MC to fit my car then I might go with it boosted if this is not enough which should be fine. Std setup for manual is 1 inch bore. Thanks for all your help, I will let you know how it goes. This retired Marine has had enough.

Hope you have better luck with CPP masters than I have. I just had two that leaked badly through the plugged ports on the passenger side. Complete waste of time. Now waiting for a third that is supposedly using a different casting. I wanted to go with an AC Delco but the car owner is insisting on another CPP master.

Don

[vstol]

The attraction to CPP MC is it comes in 15/16ths. This is my second Wilwood MC at $200. Tobin has a great reputation so we will give this a try.

[rustomatic]

It might be a dumb theory, but I get the sense that adjustable proportioning valves make effective bleeding much more difficult, especially if the valve is set to close off one end of the system when you're bleeding. I say this because I've only had problems bleeding systems that have adjustable proportioning valves. With my current system (mostly new steel lines/bends/masters/pedal), which has no adjustable valve (dual masters with balance bar instead), basic gravity bleeding actually worked the first time (as far as I can tell at this point). I was so happy to avoid that stupid compressor suction setup . . .

[Hydratech®]

FYI - I see people spending all kinds of money on expensive master cylinders, swapping them out for different bore sizes for test purposes to see what / if any improvements are to be had (brake feel tuning purposes). Here are some super low cost OE GM MC's that you should be aware of to use for initial bore size swap out test purposes:

7/8" bore manual brake: RAYBESTOS MC39027
(1977 Chevy Monza)
WARNING: This MC does NOT have the deep MC pushrod hole. You CAN drill the piston for a deeper pushrod hole, use a rubber boot to make sure the brake pedal rod doesn't accidentally fall out, or rig up a brake pedal rod retainer of sorts.

http://piratejack.net/master-cylinder-manual-rod-boot/

Here you can see how www.mpbrakes.com (Master Power Brake Company) takes late model MC's that are equipped with the short rod / shallow MC pushrod and then drills them for the deep pushrod hole for manual brake usage:

https://www.mpbrakes.com/images/MC390427MP-RearM-Large.jpg

BTW - You are looking at a 2000 +/- model year US S-10 MC that has been drilled for manual brake usage in the image link above.

15/16" bore manual brake: CARDONE SELECT 131639
(1977 Chevy Malibu - deep MC pushrod hole)
(Baer used to supply these with their braking systems years ago)

1" bore manual brake: CARDONE SELECT 131371
(1968 - 1976 C3 Corvette - deep MC pushrod hole)

Once you prove out what MC bore size you may like best, THEN spend the money on a "bling" MC if desired.

Oh, and the general rule with GM MC's is the 1/2" port is for the front brakes, and the 9/16" port is for the rear brakes (mentioning this because some MC's are reversed from others as far as which port is which). There are some exceptions...

[vstol]

If I keep the push rod in the manual position vice pwr on the stock pedal it will just make the brakes very sensitive correct? So 5.7:1 vice 3.5/4:1?

[Hydratech®]

Note that the brake pedal rod MUST enter the master cylinder dead on straight in a manual brake scenario. Discussions of drilling different holes in the brake pedal in efforts to alter brake pedal ratios are not valid because the brake pedal rod will then enter the backside of the MC at an inappropriate angle causing linkage bind, MC failure from extreme side loading of the pistons, and even possible complete failure of the brake pedal rod linkage entirely.

Summary? You MUST keep your brake rod connection in the factory manual brake top hole - no if's, and's, or but's about it.

:drive:

[GregWeld]

Funny.... when you buy a 1969 Camaro Brake pedal assembly - it has two holes from the factory -- Manual -- and Power....

It's only about a 1 inch difference and the angle of the pushrod is hardly an issue. The pushrod swings thru an arc regardless - it doesn't go straight in and out. The pedal pivots thru an arc....

The difference between a power booster and a manual is taken up in the ANGLE of the mounting at the other side of the firewall.... the power booster is usually tilted back (at the top) slightly due to the LOWER hole in the brake pedal being used (less ratio).... and the manual is usually mounted flat - and uses the "upper" hole (more pedal ratio).









Note that the brake pedal rod MUST enter the master cylinder dead on straight in a manual brake scenario. Discussions of drilling different holes in the brake pedal in efforts to alter brake pedal ratios are not valid because the brake pedal rod will then enter the backside of the MC at an inappropriate angle causing linkage bind, MC failure from extreme side loading of the pistons, and even possible complete failure of the brake pedal rod linkage entirely.

Summary? You MUST keep your brake rod connection in the factory manual brake top hole - no if's, and's, or but's about it.

:drive:

[Hydratech®]

"It's only about a 1 inch difference and the angle of the pushrod is hardly an issue."


The 1st gen F car factory vacuum booster is angled upward at whopping 17 degrees. Go crawl under the dash of a 1st gen F body and try to force the manual brake rod into the lower power brake pedal hole and see how that goes for you - it flat out isn't going to happen. If you somehow do actually manage to force it to happen, you are definitely going to get into linkage bind and extreme MC piston side loading leading to direct failure. Sooooo..... unless you angle your manual brake MC upwards by whatever means imaginable (to accommodate a 17 degree angle as bolted to the firewall), you are causing trouble talking about moving the brake pedal rod connection point from the upper manual brake pedal point to the lower power brake point in a manual brake equipped 1st gen F car.

[vstol]

Note that the brake pedal rod MUST enter the master cylinder dead on straight in a manual brake scenario. Discussions of drilling different holes in the brake pedal in efforts to alter brake pedal ratios are not valid because the brake pedal rod will then enter the backside of the MC at an inappropriate angle causing linkage bind, MC failure from extreme side loading of the pistons, and even possible complete failure of the brake pedal rod linkage entirely.

Summary? You MUST keep your brake rod connection in the factory manual brake top hole - no if's, and's, or but's about it.

:drive:

Thanks it is in the manual position now but switching to power and like Greg said the power location is about an inch lower. Thanks for the comments to both of you.

[GregWeld]

Note that the brake pedal rod MUST enter the master cylinder dead on straight in a manual brake scenario. Discussions of drilling different holes in the brake pedal in efforts to alter brake pedal ratios are not valid because the brake pedal rod will then enter the backside of the MC at an inappropriate angle causing linkage bind, MC failure from extreme side loading of the pistons, and even possible complete failure of the brake pedal rod linkage entirely.

Summary? You MUST keep your brake rod connection in the factory manual brake top hole - no if's, and's, or but's about it.

:drive:




I'm not sure you're tracking here. There are two holes in the pedal -- changing ratio - depending on if you have power or manual....

If the cars pedal only has the power brake hole -- but is being used as a manual car... then of course the ratio is messed up (4:1 vs 6:1) and the pushrod position and angle would be in the wrong location.

What I stated is that the MANUAL hole - if missing - needs to be added to the pedal to correct the ratio. When corrected - the pushrod would then be in the proper position for the manual master cylinder - and the ratio would also be corrected.

You're trying to inject a different issue -- which is to try to use the wrong position. The lower hole (closer to the floor) is there for POWER brakes - and the booster is at an angle so the rod and arc etc work correctly. The Manual brake position is about 1 inch higher -- making it a straighter "angle" -- and the factory manual master is mounted as such -- flat to the firewall.

[vstol]

I will use the lower hole in the 71 corvette pedal for the power brake setup thanks

[Hydratech®]

You're trying to inject a different issue -- which is to try to use the wrong position. The lower hole (closer to the floor) is there for POWER brakes - and the booster is at an angle so the rod and arc etc work correctly. The Manual brake position is about 1 inch higher -- making it a straighter "angle" -- and the factory manual master is mounted as such -- flat to the firewall.

Rest assured that I am certainly not trying to cause any trouble. In fact, I'm only making it certain that "under discussed" issues are crystal clear for some of our members / readers.

:cheers:

[vstol]

No issues here thanks for all your help guys. Once it is set up I will get back and close this out.

[dontlifttoshift]

So you are going to power brakes?

[vstol]

YES, booster came today

[Hydratech®]

Have you attempted to install your vacuum booster yet? If not, be warned that the C3 Vette steering column support bracket is different than the power brake support. I have no earthly idea why Chevrolet did that. Besides having to cut a different hole lower down in the fiberglass firewall for the vacuum brake booster location, you will also find that the bolt pattern isn't anywhere near what you need for the bottom two mounting points. The top two MC mounting studs can be extracted, which then at least places the top two vacuum booster mounting points in the correct location, but then you find that the lower two mounting points will not correlate properly with the manual brake spec steering column support structure (which is what the C3 Vette vacuum boosters essentially bolt to) (besides the fiberglass). I checked out a bit of your build thread and see that you are a competent fabricator. I recommend you pull the manual brake steering support structure out and weld in some further material at the bottom of the bolt pattern to properly support the bottom two fastener points of your vacuum booster, OR swap in a factory C3 power brake spec steering column support bracket.

This why we developed a special direct bolt in C3 manual brake spec conversion system that accommodates the different manual brake firewall and the different manual brake spec steering column support bracket:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/C3Corvette.html#SGROBJ7D920161312A1BD0

Rest assured that I am not sales pitching you on a hydraulic brake assist system, just covering the bases on converting a factory manual brake C3 Vette to a power brake (bizarre why Chevrolet did that)...

:lateral:

[Hydratech®]

As another interesting and pertinent side note, (that some do not know or consider in their builds), be aware that the Wilwood MC's are specifically designed to provide a 75/25 output (75% to the front, but only 25% to the rear). By direct comparison, the factory C3 MC's are designed to provide approximately a 65/35 (65% to the front and a larger output of 35%+ to the rear). You have been mentioning that your front brakes are behaving, but can't quite get your rear brakes to bite down properly. Soooo.... The output difference between the Wilwood MC and the C3 Vette MC's are indeed different - the C3 MC's put out more volume to the rear brakes by design (it's the location of the comp ports inside the fluid wells of the MC fluid bowls that makes the difference).

:secret:

[vstol]

Thanks for the info. Wilwood told me their manual setup put equal pressure front and back. Anyhow I am going to put the booster in today, I hope then mock up the MC so I can see how to a new fuel line into the rails and hopefully not have to move the clutch reservoir as well. :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Hydratech®]

Here it is in Wilwood spec sheet in the link below:

"The stroke is set at 1.10” with a volume ratio of 2:1 between the primary and secondary chambers"

http://www.wilwood.com/mastercylinders/MasterCylinderProd.aspx?itemno=260-9439

Semper Fi !

[Hydratech®]

If you still can't find your happiness after this next wave of mods, give us a call as we can make that bad boy stop like a fighter jet being snatched up by a tail hook coming in for a landing on an aircraft carrier. (Interestingly mentioned to us by a few actual fighter pilot customers running our systems in their muscle cars over the years).

Study all of the firewall and steering column support structure mods, and also your clutch MC positioning. If it's going to be the surgery I believe it will be to install the vacuum booster, you may as well strongly consider our bolt in special manual to power brake conversion package to save you all of the hassle. It is as slender as the master cylinder is on the engine side, clears all known clutch combinations, and in your application would bolt down from the engine side of the firewall as a true plug n play without any mods at all what so ever.

As a general rule, manual brakes will typically provide 700-1000 PSI of line pressure. A factory C3 vacuum booster will typically add a couple / three hundred PSI to that (given high levels of engine vacuum feeding it). If you have chosen to obtain and install a "mini booster" you will find exactly that: "mini boost" output. By comparison, our hydraulic assist system will *****cat around at normal stock type levels during regular driving maneuvers, but is capable of easily punching out 1600 - 1800 PSI on demand when called upon, "stopping you on a dime and giving you two nickels change"!

:popcorn2:

[carbuff]

Wouldn't a 2:1 ratio be 66.6% / 33.3% instead of 72/25? Thus closer to the original ratio you quoted?

Regardless, that is interesting information. Do you know if other aftermarket MC's are also built this way? I use a GM unit, but it's good knowledge to have for the future...

Thanx!

[Hydratech®]

I have found that most all aftermarket MC's are typically C3 Vette MC's in disguise (once torn down and carefully scrutinized). My math? Ok, it is my kryptonite, and good lord it looks like I'm wrong. Many many years ago (about twenty or so), I burette tested the CC outputs of various MC's x 1" of exact input stroke and got into all kinds of math... Over the next further years I actually didn't particularly chuck the math, but instead went into real world testing (less some of the math) Tobin at Kore3 is my go to guy for math these days LOL (caliper piston sizes x MC bore size x mechanical pedal leverage) The variable output of the hydroboost unit's can't seem to be exactly calculated though due to other variables such as PS pump max relief pressures and such. I have found that an installation with a Wilwood MC of exact same bore size (Wil-260-8856 with 1.125" bore) versus a C3 Vette MC (with the same 1.125" bore size)(as a back to back swap out) required considerably different inline adjustable proportioning valve settings. With the Wilwood in place, we could run the adjustable prop valve just about wide open (knob screwed all the way in), while swapping in the C3 Vette MC required considerable pressure reduction adjustments to the rear brakes = my type of real world "math" indicating a higher rear port / rear brake output with the C3 Vette MC as compared to the Wilwood. Hmmm...

[vstol]

If you still can't find your happiness after this next wave of mods, give us a call as we can make that bad boy stop like a fighter jet being snatched up by a tail hook coming in for a landing on an aircraft carrier. (Interestingly mentioned to us by a few actual fighter pilot customers running our systems in their muscle cars over the years).

Study all of the firewall and steering column support structure mods, and also your clutch MC positioning. If it's going to be the surgery I believe it will be to install the vacuum booster, you may as well strongly consider our bolt in special manual to power brake conversion package to save you all of the hassle. It is as slender as the master cylinder is on the engine side, clears all known clutch combinations, and in your application would bolt down from the engine side of the firewall as a true plug n play without any mods at all what so ever.

As a general rule, manual brakes will typically provide 700-1000 PSI of line pressure. A factory C3 vacuum booster will typically add a couple / three hundred PSI to that (given high levels of engine vacuum feeding it). If you have chosen to obtain and install a "mini booster" you will find exactly that: "mini boost" output. By comparison, our hydraulic assist system will *****cat around at normal stock type levels during regular driving maneuvers, but is capable of easily punching out 1600 - 1800 PSI on demand when called upon, "stopping you on a dime and giving you two nickels change"!

:popcorn2:


As a tail hooker myself I understand the I hope I locked my harness before the cable stops me on the carrier. Thankfully flying harriers on the ship it was better to stop and land. I might give you a tomorrow as the booster is not going to fit as nicely as I thought it might. I am running the LS3 with the C4 rack and pinion.

[Vegas69]

My experience with a Wilwood master would lead me to the same conclusion. I had my proportioning valve wide open except for at time when I had an aggressive autocross pad on the rear. With a Hawk HP Plus or other less aggressive street pad, I always felt like I could use a little more rear brake.

With that being said, the car stopped very well with a manual 1" bore and I had 335mm R888's out back so they needed way more brake than the average car. The pedal effort was pretty firm.

[Hydratech®]

Click on this link for an expanded view:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/3007.jpg

Take a good close look for reference. You will see I have designed this particular system to place the brake assist unit on center with the top two mounting points where your master cylinder is currently mounted. The C3 factory manual brake master cylinder design has two studs protruding from the firewall with the MC hole in the firewall on center of these two bolts, so the top two holes in the billet mounting plate on this brake unit will fasten there to the factory MC studs. Now 2.885" lower from the top two master cylinder mounting points are two 5/16" bolts going into your firewall / steering column support structure. This is where the lower two fastener points are in this manual to power brake conversion system. This system is angled downward just enough to stay out of hood clearance issues. This system is actually vastly easier to install than the poor guys that have a factory power brake system, as they have to fight four vacuum booster mounting nuts out from under the dash to unbolt the booster (then schedule a chiropractic appointment the day after). By contrast, you get to hit "the big red easy button" as all of your work is going to be pleasant because everything bolts from the engine compartment side nice and clean and simple. The only under dash diving you will have to do is establish the connection to the brake pedal (with this system providing a design that allows you set the brake pedal height wherever you may want it by spinning the brake assist unit's brake pedal rod in or out of the horseshoe clevis). This system will also have you use your existing manual brake connection point on the pedal, so you will definitely have to go with the larger 1.125" bore MC (Wilwood 260-8556P or Wilwood 260-8556BK) if you want to go that route. Or? We have a few other MC's you could look at available through us. Note that we do outsource the Wilwood MC's for customers upon request as needed, matching Summit Racing's Pricing at $239.95:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556p

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556-bk

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders.html

Your LS3 pump and C4 rack are a very popular proven combination, so this will also be simple to connect the PS plumbing. Here is a general schematic of the plumbing for basic reference (courtesy of Concept One):

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/PShoserouting.JPG (http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/PShoserouting.JPG)

Here is the hose assembly tutorial:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/hosetech.html

For advanced system installation reading (note that "Photobucket ransom" has caused many images to no longer appear):

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86332-Backpressure-issues-w-Hydratech

Also, scroll down to the bottom of this (old) web page to see the C3 Vette feedback:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/

We also have three different levels of preparation available - scroll further down this web page to see the details and expandable photography:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/products.html

I suggest you give my guy Jim Petty a call to discuss:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/contact.html

I apologize, but I am not available for telephone calls (just way too much going on during the day to get involved with 15 - 45 minute phone calls (which is why I have Jim Petty). I have sent him a link to this forum discussion so that he knows what we have been talking about.

There IS a difference – Thank you for choosing Hydratech!

[vstol]

My experience with a Wilwood master would lead me to the same conclusion. I had my proportioning valve wide open except for at time when I had an aggressive autocross pad on the rear. With a Hawk HP Plus or other less aggressive street pad, I always felt like I could use a little more rear brake.

With that being said, the car stopped very well with a manual 1" bore and I had 335mm R888's out back so they needed way more brake than the average car. The pedal effort was pretty firm.

Thanks

[kwhizz]

I had nothing but trouble with my 7/8" Wilwood set-up also.......couldn't get any pressure or fluid flow to the rears........Bought another master and the same issue.......(these were probably the masters in the recall).....Bought a Detroit Speed power set-up and 15 minutes later my brake issues were gone.....Just Say'in.....

Ken

[vstol]

Click on this link for an expanded view:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/3007.jpg

Take a good close look for reference. You will see I have designed this particular system to place the brake assist unit on center with the top two mounting points where your master cylinder is currently mounted. The C3 factory manual brake master cylinder design has two studs protruding from the firewall with the MC hole in the firewall on center of these two bolts, so the top two holes in the billet mounting plate on this brake unit will fasten there to the factory MC studs. Now 2.885" lower from the top two master cylinder mounting points are two 5/16" bolts going into your firewall / steering column support structure. This is where the lower two fastener points are in this manual to power brake conversion system. This system is angled downward just enough to stay out of hood clearance issues. This system is actually vastly easier to install than the poor guys that have a factory power brake system, as they have to fight four vacuum booster mounting nuts out from under the dash to unbolt the booster (then schedule a chiropractic appointment the day after). By contrast, you get to hit "the big red easy button" as all of your work is going to be pleasant because everything bolts from the engine compartment side nice and clean and simple. The only under dash diving you will have to do is establish the connection to the brake pedal (with this system providing a design that allows you set the brake pedal height wherever you may want it by spinning the brake assist unit's brake pedal rod in or out of the horseshoe clevis). This system will also have you use your existing manual brake connection point on the pedal, so you will definitely have to go with the larger 1.125" bore MC (Wilwood 260-8556P or Wilwood 260-8556BK) if you want to go that route. Or? We have a few other MC's you could look at available through us. Note that we do outsource the Wilwood MC's for customers upon request as needed, matching Summit Racing's Pricing at $239.95:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556p

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556-bk

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders.html

Your LS3 pump and C4 rack are a very popular proven combination, so this will also be simple to connect the PS plumbing. Here is a general schematic of the plumbing for basic reference (courtesy of Concept One):

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/PShoserouting.JPG (http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/PShoserouting.JPG)

Here is the hose assembly tutorial:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/hosetech.html

For advanced system installation reading (note that "Photobucket ransom" has caused many images to no longer appear):

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86332-Backpressure-issues-w-Hydratech

Also, scroll down to the bottom of this (old) web page to see the C3 Vette feedback:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/

We also have three different levels of preparation available - scroll further down this web page to see the details and expandable photography:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/products.html

I suggest you give my guy Jim Petty a call to discuss:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/contact.html

I apologize, but I am not available for telephone calls (just way too much going on during the day to get involved with 15 - 45 minute phone calls (which is why I have Jim Petty). I have sent him a link to this forum discussion so that he knows what we have been talking about.

There IS a difference – Thank you for choosing Hydratech!


Paul I called the line today no answer and sent and email missed ya. I will try to contact you tomorrow or call me at the info I gave in the info, thanks

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - Sorry about that... Monday's are either very quiet (with Jim playing card games on the PC bored stiff) *OR* crazy on fire. Today happened to be the crazy on fire Monday - Jim was totally overwhelmed = sorry that you couldn't get through appropriately. I saw your e-mail that you sent in, and forwarded it to Jim with instructions to give you a jingle. Is there a best time for you to take a call? Please note that Jim is only in the office from 10am to 3pm CST (live local time clock on our contact us web page).

:flag2:

[vstol]

Hi Kevin - Sorry about that... Monday's are either very quiet (with Jim playing card games on the PC bored stiff) *OR* crazy on fire. Today happened to be the crazy on fire Monday - Jim was totally overwhelmed = sorry that you couldn't get through appropriately. I saw your e-mail that you sent in, and forwarded it to Jim with instructions to give you a jingle. Is there a best time for you to take a call? Please note that Jim is only in the office from 10am to 3pm CST (live local time clock on our contact us web page).

:flag2:
Great I will call again as I am in VA. Busy is good

[GregWeld]

All good info.....


I have a couple (3 and building a 4th) race cars.... ran Thunderhill this weekend - Wilwood 1" MANUAL master cylinder... Wilwood 6 piston front - 4 piston rears.....

I'm running down into turn one at 135 to 140 mph..... and then have 14 more turns to negotiate after that - lap after lap. Never needed anything other than my foot and I can stand the car on it's nose... I don't even run an aggressive pad. I prefer to buy cheap pads over Spec 37 rotors.

I have the bias set so when I'm threshold braking -- I know I've hit that point when the rears chatter (hop) and the ass is in the air and the nose is digging a hole - that way I know to let up just a bit.... it's a "telltale".

[vstol]

Great I will call again as I am in VA. Busy is good
Jim gave me a call and very helpful, thanks

[vstol]

All good info.....


I have a couple (3 and building a 4th) race cars.... ran Thunderhill this weekend - Wilwood 1" MANUAL master cylinder... Wilwood 6 piston front - 4 piston rears.....

I'm running down into turn one at 135 to 140 mph..... and then have 14 more turns to negotiate after that - lap after lap. Never needed anything other than my foot and I can stand the car on it's nose... I don't even run an aggressive pad. I prefer to buy cheap pads over Spec 37 rotors.

I have the bias set so when I'm threshold braking -- I know I've hit that point when the rears chatter (hop) and the ass is in the air and the nose is digging a hole - that way I know to let up just a bit.... it's a "telltale".

I had the Wilwood 15/16ths as you know and could not stop very well at 40 mph. I have another manual 15/16ths, new ready to go so I'm thinking that maybe try that first then Hydratech or bite the bullet now.

[Vegas69]

All good info.....


I have a couple (3 and building a 4th) race cars.... ran Thunderhill this weekend - Wilwood 1" MANUAL master cylinder... Wilwood 6 piston front - 4 piston rears.....

I'm running down into turn one at 135 to 140 mph..... and then have 14 more turns to negotiate after that - lap after lap. Never needed anything other than my foot and I can stand the car on it's nose... I don't even run an aggressive pad. I prefer to buy cheap pads over Spec 37 rotors.

I have the bias set so when I'm threshold braking -- I know I've hit that point when the rears chatter (hop) and the ass is in the air and the nose is digging a hole - that way I know to let up just a bit.... it's a "telltale".

I had the same set up on my car. It was great on the road course.

The street is a different ball game. Cold pads and way less friction.

[Hydratech®]

I do actually indeed suggest that you pop the other MC in to see what happens. It's already sitting there, so why not try it? I am a mega gearhead, and would definitely install the alternate MC myself to see what may happen before moving forward with anything else, especially as easy as it is to do a back to back MC swap out (providing you don't have to get into brake line port adapters or any changes with the brake lines).

TIP: Absolutely positively thoroughly bench bleed the MC first (off of the car literally in a bench vise, of course, right?) - view the links below. I strongly suggest the port plug method as opposed to the old school hose method for MC bench bleeding (it's vastly more conclusive than the hose method). Once that is done: Air does not go down brake lines when a MC is disconnected. As such, place a big fat towel underneath the MC to catch the brake fluid, disconnect the lines from your current MC, cap the brake lines with some generic vacuum caps for the moment. Yank the (dripping) current MC out (plug the ports quickly if possible to prevent the mess). Bolt the new MC in with the bleeding port plugs still in place. Now yank the little vacuum caps off of the brake lines and plug them into the new MC as quickly as you can, BUT do not tighten them down all of the way. Why? If you wait for both loosely connected lines to start steadily dripping, this has bled this part of the braking system out, not requiring you to get into a full on four wheel brake bleed session again (unless you believe there could be air still strapped somewhere in the system).

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

http://www.hydratechbraking.com//images/MCBleedSheet.JPG

Let us know how the alternate MC behaves - we're all here to help!

:military:

[Hydratech®]

Street braking versus road course / track braking are definitely very very different scenarios. Track only / mostly? Fits Greg Welds comments, thoughts, and suggestions. Street use? That's a whole different world. Scrubbing off high speeds - say 150 down to 90 for a turn speaks more of the thermal capacity of the brakes. Street braking from 70 to zero is significantly different arena speaking much more so of instant clamping force available.

Here is a fun video:

Super Chevy Magazine exclaims, "In our history of vehicle testing, we have never had a car stop in this short of a distance!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=CpUy9wcAtJY


http://www.classicperform.com/ProjectNova/ProjectNova.htm

[vstol]

Paul what is the main difference between yours and CPP's Hydra stop? Thanks

[vstol]

Street braking versus road course / track braking are definitely very very different scenarios. Track only / mostly? Fits Greg Welds comments, thoughts, and suggestions. Street use? That's a whole different world. Scrubbing off high speeds - say 150 down to 90 for a turn speaks more of the thermal capacity of the brakes. Street braking from 70 to zero is significantly different arena speaking much more so of instant clamping force available.

Here is a fun video:

Super Chevy Magazine exclaims, "In our history of vehicle testing, we have never had a car stop in this short of a distance!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=CpUy9wcAtJY


http://www.classicperform.com/ProjectNova/ProjectNova.htm

pm sent

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - man, this is like a "let's not even go there" topic - makes me so damn angry I am trying hard to stay calm and composed writing this post. :bur2: As some know, and others unfortunately don't, CPP used to be a dealer of our systems years ago. We then discovered that they had started copying our systems - DOH! That discovery immediately led to us to cutting off supply to them, and then removing them as a dealer of our systems. This has actually been discovered as CPP's "Modus Operandi" also affecting MANY others in the aftermarket industry.
CPP even tried to order in one of everything Tobin at Kore3 produces so that they could copy his stuff too! Unreal...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_operandi

*The CPP systems are cheap low end offshore copies.* Here is an e-mail I have circulated to some of our dealers:

BEWARE!!! Scroll all the way down and check out the link. Beware and watch out for the new Chinese crap hydroboost units hitting the market! CPP is using them, and Lord knows who else at this point. Apparently the patent rights must have run out and I’m sure Bosch is having conniption fits over this. We will continue to use genuine Bosch produced units regardless of how much this new flood of Chinese junk undercuts us… I need to find a way to identify the Chinese junk – casting differences or something we can point out to our customers so that they are aware. Tempted to have somebody order one in from CPP and have it shipped over here so that I can examine it – maybe just order one in from Atech / Summit… Check it out thoroughly and then just ship it back – yuck!

http://www.fiverbrakebooster.com/product/Hydraulic-Hydro-booster-for-Chevrolet-GMC-Buick-Hummer-Series.html

We have had many many confused customers calling us for tech support on what they thought were systems that we produced, finding in the conversations that they are actually dealing with a CPP "Hydro Stop" POS. The customers are shocked to find out that these are no longer Hydratech produced items, and despite all of this we still generally help them out best we can (despite this ugly scenario). They call complaining of improper assembly, parts not fitting, systems not operating properly. The other calls are how come I was at a car show and the guy parked next to me had a system that looked vastly better than my installed setup. Needless to say, we ask them did the other guys system say "HYDRATECH" on it? And what does your system say on it? They then get pissed off in the knowledge that they were somewhat hoodwinked into thinking that they were getting / have installed a Hydratech system. Some callers have also been really pissed off to find out that their "CPP Show Stopper" is just an unprepared / raw brake assist unit with nothing more than a chromed accumulator slip cover installed on the brake unit, a cheap copy of our billet firewall mounting plate, and one of their MCPV-1 MC's installed. So comparing apples to (rotten) apples, take a look at our three different levels of preparation for the details - you will clearly see that we do incredibly more with any level of preparation of our systems than anybody else in the industry using only genuine Bosch production brake assist units and only genuine high end Aeroquip power steering plumbing - scroll further down this web page to review:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/products.html

While CPP has copied some of our systems, they have only copied a few of them. We have over 300+ highly specialized systems in our production line up. I can assure you that they do not have coverage for your factory manual brake C3 Vette...

Now off to mix up a Long Island Tea and calm down!

:guns:

[Hydratech®]

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/QUALITY.jpg

[vstol]

Thanks Paul I did not know the history. You have been great advise as all of you on the site, many thanks.

[GregWeld]

I wouldn't own CPP ANYTHING..... this is not a "quality" company -- this is a cheap junk company. The stuff is sold purely on "price".

[vstol]

Paul just called to order your Hydratech set up but you had already closed.

[vstol]

I wouldn't own CPP ANYTHING..... this is not a "quality" company -- this is a cheap junk company. The stuff is sold purely on "price".

Ouch I was going to trade my 15/16ths MC for their 1 1/8th.

[Hydratech®]

Could you even imagine how utterly INCREDIBLY pissed I was at the 2010 SEMA show when I saw a brake unit that I built with my own two hands on display in the CPP booth, where CPP had the absolutely incredible gall to remove the Hydratech billet firewall mounting plate and replace it with their CPP plate on this display unit? On *MY* brake unit? That takes some serious bad faith and is one of the nastiest things anybody has ever done to me in the industry:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/SEMA2010CPPDISPLAY.jpg

Then of course Jim Reis stopped taking my calls and responding to my e-mails...

DOWNRIGHT EVIL EXISTS OUT THERE - please, let's not even dare go into the discussion of what ****** Hydraulics did to me a year or so before this... See? hell, it's even a censored word here on Lat-G.

[vstol]

Could you even imagine how utterly INCREDIBLY pissed I was at the 2010 SEMA show when I saw a brake unit that I built with my own two hands on display in the CPP booth, where CPP had the absolutely incredible gall to remove the Hydratech billet firewall mounting plate and replace it with their CPP plate on this display unit? On *MY* brake unit? That takes some serious bad faith and is one of the nastiest things anybody has ever done to me in the industry:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/SEMA2010CPPDISPLAY.jpg

Then of course Jim Reis stopped taking my calls and responding to my e-mails...

DOWNRIGHT EVIL EXISTS OUT THERE - please, let's not even dare go into the discussion of what ****** Hydraulics did to me a year or so before this... See? hell, it's even a censored word here on Lat-G.

I will call you today

[vstol]

Paul I hope to see my Hydratech system soon. Everyone who has commented on this site many thanks. I will let you know how it works out.

[GregWeld]

Paul I hope to see my Hydratech system soon. Everyone who has commented on this site many thanks. I will let you know how it works out.



These systems work awesome.... you won't be disappointed.

[Hydratech®]

:happy23: All of this hammering of CPP in this thread has all of a sudden led to me receiving flack about why we still carry this MC:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders.html

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders/imag017.jpg

This is a "legacy" item that we carried back when all was still "well" with our CPP dealings. We do actually have some of these on our shelves despite "everything". Why? It is actually because of customer demand for the item (just like the various Wilwood MC's we also have sitting on our shelves). I will note that this particular MC hasn't led to any trouble (surprisingly) with our customers over the years.

Now here is the beautiful one with the built in adjustable proportioning valve that I'd *really* prefer to put in place of the current CPP MC listing:

http://ssbrakes.com/i-10092042-billet-aluminummaster-cylinder-adjustable-proportioning-valve-combo-gm-1-1-8-bore-ball-milled-cap-a0474-5.html

http://ssbrakes.com/images/F54518710.jpg

BUT when we mention $540 bucks for just the MC, the people on the other end of the phone go quiet for a moment trying to absorb paying this amount of money instead of the $199.95 for CPP MC....

All said and done, we can outsource this really really nice vastly superior SSBC MC for our customers on demand, though most opt out and choose the CPP version instead (despite my hammering of CPP). That is why it is still listed...

:bitchslap:

[vstol]

I exchanged my CPP 15/16 for a 1 1/8th.

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - normally our lead times on the base models are in the 3-4 week range. We had a previous order for another customer that the build department accidentally "double built" a few weeks ago. I ran across it today by chance happenstance just sitting there bagged and tagged on a secondary bench and said OMG! This is the model that Kevin needs! Soooooo....

From: HYDRATECH BRAKING SYSTEMS
Tracking Number: 1Z6878F50397741825
Ship To: Kevin XXXXXXXXX
UPS Service: UPS GROUND
Number of Packages: 1
Scheduled Delivery: Monday - 10/30/2017

Thinking of Tom Petty's recent passing, I sang to myself "even the losers get lucky sometimes" (certainly not speaking of you just to be clear)

Remember, call my guy Jim Petty with any questions you may have at any point, as you have our full support!

:gitrdun:

[Hydratech®]

Now remember, you ordered the Hydratech model #3507 with the late / short MC pushrod design:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/pushrod%20ID.JPG

Soooo, be sure to insert the spacer bullet / plug / slug into the deep hole on your master cylinder to convert it for use with the late model GM short pushrod design on your brake unit, otherwise you will have no brakes (!)

Most all aftermarket MC designs are of this "convertible" design - the MC is provided with the GM early spec deep pushrod hole, though the MC is also typically supplied with the "conversion bullet / slug / plug" that converts it for use with the GM late / short MC pushrod interface. Note that we do not supply this item - it is supplied with the aftermarket brake master cylinder. You are using a 1 1/8" CPP MC, right? These are typically the "convertible" spacer bullet type design. I suggest you bench bleed the MC first with the deep hole, which helps to keep your screwdriver from accidentally popping out of place and gouging the MC piston bore. Once the MC is fully bench bled, then you put a dab of grease on the front of the bullet and push it into the deep MC pushrod hole (to help make sure it doesn't accidentally fall out at any point while your handling it during installation onto the face of the brake assist unit). SSBC has an instruction sheet that discusses and shows the installation of the spacer bullet in their MC's for general reference:

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/ssb-a0467_a0468_a0469-1-2-3-4-5.pdf

So now we'll all sit back and watch how this system installation goes for you - definitely keep us posted. If all goes according to the plan, you will have a big fat smile on your face here shortly!

:popcorn2:

[vstol]

Now remember, you ordered the Hydratech model #3507 with the late / short MC pushrod design:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/pushrod%20ID.JPG

Soooo, be sure to insert the spacer bullet / plug / slug into the deep hole on your master cylinder to convert it for use with the late model GM short pushrod design on your brake unit, otherwise you will have no brakes (!)

Most all aftermarket MC designs are of this "convertible" design - the MC is provided with the GM early spec deep pushrod hole, though the MC is also typically supplied with the "conversion bullet / slug / plug" that converts it for use with the GM late / short MC pushrod interface. Note that we do not supply this item - it is supplied with the aftermarket brake master cylinder. You are using a 1 1/8" CPP MC, right? These are typically the "convertible" spacer bullet type design. I suggest you bench bleed the MC first with the deep hole, which helps to keep your screwdriver from accidentally popping out of place and gouging the MC piston bore. Once the MC is fully bench bled, then you put a dab of grease on the front of the bullet and push it into the deep MC pushrod hole (to help make sure it doesn't accidentally fall out at any point while your handling it during installation onto the face of the brake assist unit). SSBC has an instruction sheet that discusses and shows the installation of the spacer bullet in their MC's for general reference:

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/ssb-a0467_a0468_a0469-1-2-3-4-5.pdf

So now we'll all sit back and watch how this system installation goes for you - definitely keep us posted. If all goes according to the plan, you will have a big fat smile on your face here shortly!

:popcorn2:

Thanks Paul I appreciate it. I am using the CPP 1 1/8th short stroke MC. Just waiting for it to arrive as well. Thanks Kevin

[vstol]

My Hyrdatech unit arrived today and looks great. Hope to have time this weekend and get it done.

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - I'm glad to hear that you are pleased with what you have pulled out of the "magic black box" - heck, that's just our base model :D

Keep us posted - fire off any comments you may have good or bad, as all feedback is important (whether I like it or not), as it helps with the continuous evolution of our systems. If it takes you more than 15 minutes to bolt it to the firewall, then it's time for you to retire your wrenches (!)

:thumbsup:

[vstol]

When should I bleed the brakes, I did not see that in the instructions. I thought you said before I hook up the system's hoses.

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - bleed the brakes just like you would with any other car - ENGINE OFF. This means that you can bleed the brakes before you even hook up the power steering line set. If you are going to bleed the brakes before hooking up the PS line set, place a towel under the brake unit as it will weep PS fluid out of the ports (as it has been fully dyno tested and is currently full of PS fluid). Note that the one major difference in a hydroboost system is that the brakes will be about a solid inch lower while the system is powered down versus when it is powered up (engine running). I personally prefer to have the PS system lines connected up and the preliminary fill / steer right and left procedure done before brake bleeding - you can even fire the engine up and check for proper power steering operations, but please DO NOT attempt brake bleeding with the system powered up (engine running).

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

Here is the statement located in our instructions:

*IMPORTANT! NEVER APPLY THE BRAKES WHILE THE MASTER CYLINDER IS REMOVED, OR YOU MAY DESTROY THE BRAKE ASSIST UNIT BY POSSIBLY OVEREXTENDING THE POWER BRAKE UNIT’S OUTPUT PISTON OUT OF THE PRECISION BORE THAT IT OPERATES IN!

Having the MC installed is the safety stop / travel limiter to prevent this from happening. Imagine a piston popping to far out of its cylinder bore in an engine block (!)

*Perform brake bleeding procedures with the engine off for best results.

You may also dramatically misunderstand what you are feeling with the system bled and the brakes powered up (engine running) at first. I suggest you place the vehicle on a hoist or jack stands, place the vehicle into gear to get the rear tires spinning, then apply the brakes just enough to overcome engine torque of any kind, as this will give you the best idea as to how (little) you actually have to apply the brakes to stop the vehicle. Some people just blaze down on the brake pedal not understanding what they are feeling while the vehicle is sitting still, building 1600 PSI of line pressure thinking that something is weird / wrong (that is until they actually hit the streets!).

Scroll down to the bottom of this old webpage again for reference with the C3 Vette customer's feedback - he completely misunderstood what he was feeling in his brake response at first:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/ (http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/)

:gitrdun:

[vstol]

Hi Kevin - bleed the brakes just like you would with any other car - ENGINE OFF. This means that you can bleed the brakes before you even hook up the power steering line set. If you are going to bleed the brakes before hooking up the PS line set, place a towel under the brake unit as it will weep PS fluid out of the ports (as it has been fully dyno tested and is currently full of PS fluid). Note that the one major difference in a hydroboost system is that the brakes will be about a solid inch lower while the system is powered down versus when it is powered up (engine running). I personally prefer to have the PS system lines connected up and the preliminary fill / steer right and left procedure done before brake bleeding - you can even fire the engine up and check for proper power steering operations, but please DO NOT attempt brake bleeding with the system powered up (engine running).

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

Here is the statement located in our instructions:

*IMPORTANT! NEVER APPLY THE BRAKES WHILE THE MASTER CYLINDER IS REMOVED, OR YOU MAY DESTROY THE BRAKE ASSIST UNIT BY POSSIBLY OVEREXTENDING THE POWER BRAKE UNIT’S OUTPUT PISTON OUT OF THE PRECISION BORE THAT IT OPERATES IN!

Having the MC installed is the safety stop / travel limiter to prevent this from happening. Imagine a piston popping to far out of its cylinder bore in an engine block (!)

*Perform brake bleeding procedures with the engine off for best results.

You may also dramatically misunderstand what you are feeling with the system bled and the brakes powered up (engine running) at first. I suggest you place the vehicle on a hoist or jack stands, place the vehicle into gear to get the rear tires spinning, then apply the brakes just enough to overcome engine torque of any kind, as this will give you the best idea as to how (little) you actually have to apply the brakes to stop the vehicle. Some people just blaze down on the brake pedal not understanding what they are feeling while the vehicle is sitting still, building 1600 PSI of line pressure thinking that something is weird / wrong (that is until they actually hit the streets!).

Scroll down to the bottom of this old webpage again for reference with the C3 Vette customer's feedback - he completely misunderstood what he was feeling in his brake response at first:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/ (http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/)

:gitrdun:
Great I will hook it all up first then bleed. Can not wait!!

[vstol]

Looks like I will need to make another fuel line since the new setup is in the pathway of the current set up. :bang: :bang: .

[Hydratech®]

Back when I used to own Unlimited Racing in Detroit eons ago, we always had to discuss how one change always required other changes. Just installing a set of headers seemed simple to a customer, but always required further re-engineering to make it actually happen of everything around the headers. Sometimes a mini starter had to be installed, sometimes a double hump cross member, shorter spark plugs with different boot angles... Same with "just" installing a classic Holley carb - different fuel lines, different linkages, different air cleaner, jetting the carb, moving things around to accommodate the fuel bowls, and on and on and on...

Here is an image of a C2 Vette with an LS7 installed by https://www.streetshopinc.com/, showing how they chose to move the fuel line around the front of the hydraulic brake assist unit and master cylinder:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/C2LS7.jpg

Hopefully you won't have to get too involved in re-engineering your fuel line!

[vstol]

Back when I used to own Unlimited Racing in Detroit eons ago, we always had to discuss how one change always required other changes. Just installing a set of headers seemed simple to a customer, but always required further re-engineering to make it actually happen of everything around the headers. Sometimes a mini starter had to be installed, sometimes a double hump cross member, shorter spark plugs with different boot angles... Same with "just" installing a classic Holley carb - different fuel lines, different linkages, different air cleaner, jetting the carb, moving things around to accommodate the fuel bowls, and on and on and on...

Here is an image of a C2 Vette with an LS7 installed by https://www.streetshopinc.com/, showing how they chose to move the fuel line around the front of the hydraulic brake assist unit and master cylinder:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/C2LS7.jpg

Hopefully you won't have to get too involved in re-engineering your fuel line!
Thanks, I just need to put it together and measure but the C3 box comes out further thus pushing it very close to the Alternator. I think I will need to go under it

[Hydratech®]

You are the artist, and therefore the vehicle is your canvas.

Design the changes in the fuel line reconfiguration how you see fit as such. With a factory manual brake car, the brake lines are actually longer than the factory power brake C3's, so at least it ought to be easy for you to elegantly massage the brake lines into accommodating the factory power brake MC location further forward - usually the "big red EASY BUTTON" on that aspect. Have you received your replacement 1 1/8" bore MC yet? I'm hoping you can pound this bad boy down the road this weekend! :drive:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/EASYBUTTON.JPG





BTW - Your sign is AWESOME - JUST LOVE IT! :bigun2: :guns: :rofl:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s173/vstol/L-88%20Replica/IMG_3413.jpg

Semper Fi !

[vstol]

You are the artist, and therefore the vehicle is your canvas.

Design the changes in the fuel line reconfiguration how you see fit as such. With a factory manual brake car, the brake lines are actually longer than the factory power brake C3's, so at least it ought to be easy for you to elegantly massage the brake lines into accommodating the factory power brake MC location further forward - usually the "big red EASY BUTTON" on that aspect. Have you received your replacement 1 1/8" bore MC yet? I'm hoping you can pound this bad boy down the road this weekend! :drive:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/EASYBUTTON.JPG





BTW - Your sign is AWESOME - JUST LOVE IT! :bigun2: :guns: :rofl:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s173/vstol/L-88%20Replica/IMG_3413.jpg

Semper Fi !

Thanks the MC came yesterday and the sign does get individuals attention. Remember there is nothing stock on this car except the body.

[Hydratech®]

The body looks pretty heavily "massaged", so I wouldn't call it stock by any stretch! But is sure does look great - love the paint scheme.

:cheers:

[vstol]

The body looks pretty heavily "massaged", so I wouldn't call it stock by any stretch! But is sure does look great - love the paint scheme.

:cheers:

true

[vstol]

Paul PM sent

[vstol]

I will say that the Hydratech mounting plate is machined very well and looks great. I hope to have it mounted tomorrow.

[vstol]

Paul I assume the clevis is going into the manual hole (top) in the brake pedal, at least that is where it lines up. Also I was planning on going to the reservoir vice the tee fitting for the low pressure bleed line but it is higher than the fitting on the pump. Does that make a difference?

[vstol]

Working alone I got the unit mounted, and two of the three lines completed. To get the one from the steering pump I need to remove the pulley so next Friday it should be good to go. Just need someone to help me over the weekend to bleed it. I need to order a new fuel line as well.

[Hydratech®]

Hi Kevin - yes, this particular Hydratech manual to power brake conversion system #3007 / 3507 that you have is indeed designed to connect to the top hole in your brake pedal (the hole that you have been using in your previous manual brake scenario). I sent you a few tech PM's on the low pressure return line fitting connection. You are only returning about 2 tablespoons +/- of PS fluid "back home" to the PS reservoir every time you let off of the brakes, so it can technically be located anywhere you want to put the return line connection, which is why it will even work appropriately using the T fitting method.

It sounds like you're getting closer and closer, but it (sucks) to hear that your arrangement is forcing you to yank the PS pulley off of the pump to make the high pressure PS output line connection, and then having to rework your fuel line for a power brake scenario versus the previous manual brake package. If you get the new MC bench bled out properly, you CAN gravity bleed the brake system yourself by the way... But, maybe, just maybe, you might be able to take your beast out for a healthy pound session this weekend and enjoy some absolutely wicked braking (which makes the brake pedal just as much fun as the gas pedal) (!)

:whenitsdone:

[vstol]

Thanks Paul all is good just a little more time. I used the Tee fitting. Kevin

[67_camaroRS]

update? I've gone through this whole thread LOL.:computer:

[vstol]

BINGO! I have brakes and it is awesome. The feel is progressive at first then WHAM it clamps down. So I got on the "beast" this weekend for another shake down and breaking in the brake pads and it was a great to know I could get on it and not worry about the brakes. I will tell you Paul and his team behind this post was awesome with their technical advise and I fee their customer service, if required will be great as well. Finally this has been a long road, would have been easier if Wilwood and a few other "experts" would have told me earlier that C4 brakes and a manual MC do not work!!. . Many thanks to all that have posted, this was a long painful trip with such an easy part of my build. :y0!:

[Hydratech®]

BINGO! I have brakes and it is awesome.
I know you had quite the smile on your face (finally) standing your C3 on its nose when commanded after blasting down your favorite "test areas" (yes officer, I'm just testing and tuning my car with some new safety improvements I've recently installed to make sure all is proper while handing him your license and military ID with a neatly folded $100 bill loosely attached to the backside LOL).

Further back in this discussion we talked about military pilots landing fighter jets on aircraft carriers being "tail hooked", and how you better damn make sure you were buckled in properly. How is your front to rear brake balance seem to be behaving so far? Sometimes the C4 brake systems end up with not enough rear brake activity as compared to the fronts, and this is typically a matter of proper emergency brake adjustment (as the C4 rear calipers have the e-brake built into them). If you are not getting enough rear brake involvement, apply some pressure to the brake pedal, hold it, and then cycle your emergency brake lever about 10-15 times (while holding pressure on the brake pedal) - this will "ratchet up" the rear brake calipers to provide more involvement in overall braking actions - adjust your e-brake cable(s) up as / if needed. They will usually always eventually catch up to the front brakes with further road use (but you've got some serious rubber back there!). With that much rubber back there, you may even have to get some more aggressive pads in the rear to utilize all of that traction you have (but then they will dust like all hell)...

This scenario reminds me of "Casper the white ghost" - an older well to do gentleman with a nitrous big block powered '84 C4 Vette about 17 years ago. It was funny, but the poor guy was bleeding and laughing at the same time. He had tried everything he knew to do to try to get his Vette to stop - performance pads, vacuum canister / pump, later model larger Vette Grand Sport rotors and calipers... All the usual stuff... I installed a Hydratech system in his Vette, road tested it a day to make sure the ABS and everything was happy, then handed him the keys with a warning. He blazed down the industrial drive full bore then whaled down on the brakes. He wasn't buckled in properly and blazed himself against the steering wheel quite hard resulting in a "blunt force trauma" over his eyebrow, but laughing like a little kid while swabbing the blood from his forehead. I warned him before handing him his keys, and watched the whole thing happen. Here he comes at WOT, then stands on the brakes full blast ABS kicking in fiercely and him all folded up inside of the vehicle from not being buckled down - ouch! It sure caught him way off guard (DOH!)

:thumbsup:

If you like your system now, wait until you get a couple hundred miles on it to get everything settled in!

There IS a difference - Thank you for choosing Hydratech!

[Hydratech®]

:ttiwop:

E-mail them to us if needed - we can resize them appropriately and host them on our server.

:cheers:

[vstol]

:ttiwop:

E-mail them to us if needed - we can resize them appropriately and host them on our server.

:cheers:
I will retry tomorrow.

[vstol]

actually washed and waxed the car for the pics and now my phone will not let me fwd them. Working it

[vstol]

Finally some pics, I went out for a speed limit run and @@(@*&%$& :)

[vstol]

Here are some pics of the car

[Hydratech®]

(yes officer, I'm just testing and tuning my car with some new safety improvements I've recently installed to make sure all is proper) (while handing him your license and military ID with a neatly folded $100 bill loosely attached to the backside LOL).

When you say speed limit run I am thinking either "posted speed limit" or "what the car will run speed limit" - of course it was posted speed limit runs, RIGHT? :lol: (but I'll bet you got there incredibly fast)(oh snap, I'm doing 105 in a 70, better get off the fun pedal of my Antique Vehicle) before Johnny Law notices (!)

I wish that animal was parked here with the keys in it!

:flag2:

[vstol]

When you say speed limit run I am thinking either "posted speed limit" or "what the car will run speed limit" - of course it was posted speed limit runs, RIGHT? :lol: (but I'll bet you got there incredibly fast)(oh snap, I'm doing 105 in a 70, better get off the fun pedal of my Antique Vehicle) before Johnny Law notices (!)

I wish that animal was parked here with the keys in it!

:flag2:

Thanks and I have a picture of the Hydatech setup not sure where it went. I will retake one!

[vstol]

Here are a few more with the Hydratech setup. The attached image above is the Dyno sheet