penske/donohue Camaro

[evilzee28]

With technology having moved on form the early Trans Am days, do you think that your average P/T car with it's bigger engines, fuel injection,turbo,aftermarket subframe & suspension etc etc (delete or add as appropriate) would beat Donohue's times set by his championship winning Camaros with its 302 cu in smallblock, stock frame/suspension arms, ...... would a modern P/T car outrun a historic race car? :unibrow:

[XcYZ]

With the same driver, yes. Just the advances in tire technology alone would make a huge difference, let alone the chassis and suspension development.

Now, we are talking sanctioned racing, correct? Not just parade laps with pre-determined passing zones.

[evilzee28]

With the same driver, yes. Just the advances in tire technology alone would make a huge difference, let alone the chassis and suspension development.

Now, we are talking sanctioned racing, correct? Not just parade laps with pre-determined passing zones.

Oh yes sanctioned racing, just as back in the day! :yes: not with Donohue driving the P/T car though but your average owner doing the driving chores ;)

[XcYZ]

If you don't have the same driver, how can you do and apples to apples comparison?

[evilzee28]

If you don't have the same driver, how can you do and apples to apples comparison?

Well, it's about set ups & skill.If Donohue could outrun a P/T car with old technology & smaller engine, 4 speed etc then it's not the car but driver that's the limiting factor. So does fitting aftermarket subframes, bigger engines, brakes etc make the car faster or is it just driving skills? as was said on another thread, would the average P/T owner know which subframe, brakes etc were under the car? I don't want this to get all negative & start a war I was just curious as to what people thought ie do they think they could outrun a well set up historic road racer because they have the "parts"?. Please don't start a slanging match.
I'm hoping to bring my road legal racer to the US next year & wouldn't mind seeing how it compares to the P/T cars on a road/race track. I'm certainly no Donohue, but can shoe a car ok, could be fun:yes:

[XcYZ]

Actually, the 69 Penske/Donahue car was setup that way because the rules dictated as such. As you know, in 1969, the displacement was limited to 5 liters. Don't you think they would have run a bigger motor (among all the other things) if they were allowed to?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

then the limitations would mostly be Driver rather than car..

[Payton King]

There are varying degrees of driver skill and you say average driver. Very hard to compare what you would think average is to a pro driver. I know a couple of people that could play pro baseball or football that did not..are they average because they did not do it for a living?

As far as car technology goes...that is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The amount of power that is being made now is head and shoulders above back then and as Scott addressed, the tire technology is light years past 1969.

The Trans Am series had limitations on what could be done to the vehicle and if you read about the Penske car, they streched the rules pretty far. They changed the bushings, suspension points, bigger sway bar and used a taller spindle.

So back to your original question...no contest on tire tech alone.

[Ummgawa]

Did anyone here ever see the program where Ned Jarrett and Dale Jarrett got to drive each others cars from when they were driving Cup/Grand National? Ned's 63 Bonneville or Catalina and Dale's modern day Cup Car(I think at Talladega)? Ned got in his old school car and after 20 or so laps was turning times comparable with times he turned back in the day. Dale got in the same car and it flat out scared the Poop out of him(He did not come close to the speeds his OLD man was running). They switched and let Ned drive the Cup car and he had the damn thing up to qualifying speeds on modern races inside of 10 laps. That tells me that the driver is a huge part of this equasion(sp). Made me appreciate the older drivers alot more...they had/have stainless steel balls and big ones at that.

[evilzee28]

Actually, the 69 Penske/Donahue car was setup that way because the rules dictated as such. As you know, in 1969, the displacement was limited to 5 liters. Don't you think they would have run a bigger motor (among all the other things) if they were allowed to?

Yeah, I've done a lot of research into the Trans Am cars & have added a lot of their "technology" if it could be called that, into my historic racer, so I understand the limitations placed on them, but that wasn't the point of the question really, more to see how people felt about a comparison between their cars performance & the T/A era cars. It's all hypothetical after all. ;)

The point being could a good driver like Donohue out perform a P/T car with modern technology & an average driver,ie possibly you, thereby raising the question,....... does modern technology help or hinder a driver s ability to progress to being a better driver or does a modern P/T car hide the drivers poor abilities on track.

[Payton King]

Both cars were running up to date rubber.

[clill]

The average Pro-touring car owner probably little track experience so yes the good driver in the old car would win. Jeff Schwartz winning RSE with his Cadillac is a good example of what a good driver can do. He probably could have won the event with a rental car.

[XcYZ]

does modern technology help or hinder a driver s ability to progress

I don't see how starting out with 35 year old technology could be an advantage. Do the kids racing motocross start out riding 35 year old bikes? Do Sprint car and midget racers start out driving 35 year old open wheel dirt cars? No. They all take advantage of the latest technology and tools.

[bob johnson]

Did anyone here ever see the program where Ned Jarrett and Dale Jarrett got to drive each others cars from when they were driving Cup/Grand National? Ned's 63 Bonneville or Catalina and Dale's modern day Cup Car(I think at Talladega)? Ned got in his old school car and after 20 or so laps was turning times comparable with times he turned back in the day. Dale got in the same car and it flat out scared the Poop out of him(He did not come close to the speeds his OLD man was running). They switched and let Ned drive the Cup car and he had the damn thing up to qualifying speeds on modern races inside of 10 laps. That tells me that the driver is a huge part of this equasion(sp). Made me appreciate the older drivers alot more...they had/have stainless steel balls and big ones at that.

only balls Dale haves are GOLF BALLS..Can't imagine Toyota Wanting to pay him the big bucks when you've got young guns for hire

[Ummgawa]

I agree Bob. Dale is a whiney cheeze eater. I have never given a crap about him or his skills and really enjoyed seeing his old man hand him his ass on a plate as far as driving goes. If you saw the show you could tell Dale was served that day.

And Yes Payton, the tires were modern but Neds were the narrower tires like he ran back in the day.

My comment was in reference to the Old School drivers being tough as a two dollar steak vs. the prima donnas that are driving today. Earnhardt Sr. was definately the end of an era.

[XcYZ]

My comment was in reference to the Old School drivers being tough as a two dollar steak

IE: Back when AJ Foyt ran USAC Sprint Cars.

[Payton King]

but I think Tony Stewart is trying to fill Dale E's shoes. He is not taking any crap, can drive hiss ass off and will put a dude in the wall. I am liking him more and more. He is about to replace little E as my favorite.

I have more respect for Jimmy Johnson now as well...He is having a pro-tour style 68 Camaro built even as we speak with a de-tuned NASCAR motor. I will try and get some spy shots if interested.

Back to the question posed. Of coarse a great driver makes a difference, but you cannot have 10 varibles and have a clear answer. Something needs to stay constant. If you are comparing old tech to new then, the driver needs to be the same. Comparing one driver to the next, the car needs to stay the same.

[JayR]

Scott's right, it's apples and oranges with different cars and drivers but Mark Donohue in an old car would drive around all but the very most experienced of us in a well prepped PT car like we were cones. He was a world class driver and drove around his competition who were very talented drivers themselves in all kinds of cars and classes.
Using extra hp to keep up with him would probably result in wadding the car in a corner at the end of a long straight because you let it all hang out trying to catch him.

[Derek69SS]

Regardless of which performs better, I've gotta say any vintage race-car is WAY cooler to me than any comparable modern street car.

Give me the opportunity to drive a road course in either the Penske/Donahue Camaro or The Mule, and I'll pick the Penske/Donahue car.

Give me the opportunity to make a pass in either an authentic straight-axle'd '41 willys that runs 10s, or some pro-streeter that runs 8s, and I'll pick the willys.

Give me the opportunity to go around Daytona in Smokey Yunick's '66 Chevelle or Dale Jr.'s modern cup car, and I'll take the Chevelle. :)

That's why I'm building a PT car, instead of buying a 'vette. :yes:

[Jr]

Payton,
Jimmie Johnson's car is finished. I will email a friend for pics

[71Nova]

I think the same driver would be faster with a well built PT car like Penny, the Mule, or scotts car, but I do not know if Scott or Steve could out run the old experienced drivers. Think about how much track experience those racers have. I do believe Scott and Steve's cars would both outrun the pro racers in the straits. Huge power difference! I don't know wich I would rather drive.

David

[B Schein]

Payton,
Jimmie Johnson's car is finished. I will email a friend for pic



I know the guy that is building the car for jimmy and it isn’t done

[Derek69SS]

Jimmie Johnson's car is finished.
Report: Jimmie's Camaro failed inspection at the DMV. As a penalty, Chad Knaus will not be allowed at the next 4 cruise-nights. Knaus will be watching the cruise-in from home via a live-feed.

[Jr]

I know the guy that is building the car for jimmy and it isn’t done

I was told that it was done. My friend works for Hendrick motorsports, too. I emailed him, but he hasn't responed. I was told that the motor is in the car and everything was being "buttoned up." Sorry fellas, next time I will have factual proof.

Derek69SS
Report: Jimmie's Camaro failed inspection at the DMV. As a penalty, Chad Knaus will not be allowed at the next 4 cruise-nights. Knaus will be watching the cruise-in from home via a live-feed.

*side note*Nascar should kick him in the nuts!

[Damn True]

:rofl: Report: Jimmie's Camaro failed inspection at the DMV. As a penalty, Chad Knaus will not be allowed at the next 4 cruise-nights. Knaus will be watching the cruise-in from home via a live-feed. :rofl:

[zbugger]

Looks like it's time to pool some resources. Call up Dream Car Garage to televise it, get Charley to hand the Mule over, get the Penske car out there, and have Mark Stielow drive them both. Well, at least it would be fun to watch. :willy:

[71Nova]

Hell yea it would be fun to watch!!

[V8TV]

Hmmm... we'd shoot and air that in a hearbeat!

[Damn True]

This last year I went to Monterey Historics. During the race that featured the 427 Cobras and GT-40s there was a dude in a cobra and another in a 40 that were going at it like the cars were stolen. Millions in unreplaceable race cars be damned. The announcer claimed that the lap times that the two nutjobs were running were 5sec faster than the times posted when those cars ran Laguna back in the day. Thing is......Laguna is close to 1/2 mile LONGER now than it was then. The difference was tire technology.

I think that if you put the mule or something similar against the Penske or Yunick Camaro on the same tires with the same dude driving that the result would be awfully close. Sure the Mule has more power, but I think winner would be the car that is able to maintain higher speeds in the corners.

[B Schein]

I was told that it was done. My friend works for Hendrick motorsports,



It might be close but last time I talked to him two weeks ago the car was still waiting for the frame to get finished being built. The car is not being built at Hendricks, but I am sure they are still involved.

What team or shop or team does you friend work in at Hendricks is a big place with a lot of people on the pay role so its hard to be involved with ever project. In fact I go to school with a guy who is on jimmy’s pit crew he is tire catcher or something similar all I know is he doesn’t go over the wall.

[Jr]

What team or shop or team does you friend work in at Hendricks is a big place with a lot of people on the pay role so its hard to be involved with ever project. In fact I go to school with a guy who is on jimmy’s pit crew he is tire catcher or something similar all I know is he doesn’t go over the wall.

My friend is the brake guy for Gordon and Johnson. He is the Catch can guy for Johnson on race day. He loves his job and would never give it up. You should see his Daytona ring, thing is huge.

I talked to his brother yesterday, and he said, "I will call my brother and find out whats going on." So, I have no idea what in the hell is going on, but as soon as I know, I will make a post

[XcYZ]

Cool. See if you can score a picture of the car from him, too. :thumbsup:

[Payton King]

Jimmie won a bid that was for charity on a Hendrick Cup motor and wanted to put it in his 68 camaro. The motor shop is going to de-tune it so it can run on pump gas, change the cam, etc. Petigrew is installing a 21st Century subframe, installing the motor and building the headers, different trans, wheels...etc

The car is at his place even as we speak. I spoke with him monday.

[Steve Chryssos]

Same tires, different tires; same driver different driver--whatever.

I'm willing to have a go at it. What's the worst thing that could happen? Donahue's ghost kicks my ass? I can think of worse ways to spend an afternoon.