I bought a major Pro-Touring project from a high school, WOW what were they thinking!

[DannyZ]

So I buy a 1969 Camaro Pro-touring car from a closed high school class project. I spend a lot for it but the skinny is this, everything is brand new.....

New Dynacorn body
DSE front end sub frame
Heidts IRS rear
All new front sheet metal
Blue Print 490HP 396 cid small block
ProCar seats
interior
RS headlight conversion
Big Wilwood brakes
Tremco TKO 600 5sp
dual disc clutch
new glass
new trim
SS gas tank
Be Cool Aluminum Radiator
Billet Wheels
New tires
and a lot more

So the class teachers spend almost $85,000 in new parts and half assed bolted some parts on and that's where he ends and I begin, I purchased it for a less then half of that he paid for all the parts. So now I have to figure out what to keep and what direction I should head down to build a top notch Pro-Touring Camaro. Any help or thoughts as to what direction I should head with this project?? Thanks Dan
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zhs5d86laq8xivv/2016-08-08%2006.46.12.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1r97nnhgehmpza2/2016-08-08%2006.47.38.jpg?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5iu12u9d7nrs91/2016-08-08%2006.44.03.jpg?dl=0

[camcojb]

That should be a great project. Welcome to the site!

[DannyZ]

I think that I have decided to go a different direction with the car. I'm going to sell the new 396 stroker and the Tremco TKO 600 and buy a LT-4 and a T56 trans. Then going to sell the front DSE front sub-frame setup and the Heidts PRO-G IRS rear end and order a Roadster Shop FastTrack Chassis to handle the added HP. I think that this would make more sense? But any input would be nice to here? Thanks Dan

[Rod P]

almost $85,000 in new parts and half assed bolted some parts on and that's where he ends and I begin, I purchased it for a less then half of that he paid for all the parts. So now I have to figure out what to keep and what direction I should head down to build a top notch Pro-Touring Camaro. Any help or thoughts as to what direction I should head with this project??

welcome



I think that I have decided to go a different direction with the car. I'm going to sell the new 396 stroker and the Tremco TKO 600 and buy a LT-4 and a T56 trans. Then going to sell the front DSE front sub-frame setup and the Heidts PRO-G IRS rear end and order a Roadster Shop FastTrack Chassis to handle the added HP. I think that this would make more sense? But any input would be nice to here? Thanks Dan


keep the DSE front clip, get rid of the Heidts rear and just add the DSE quadralink, it will handle the power, pretty sure Kyles car is pushing 700 hp without a problem with his DSE stuff. just my opinion, unless you have buyers already for the old gear, the used/resale/changed my mind and selling my stuff market is tough

[Sheck44]

Dan, as above ... you needn't be concerned with this level of power to justify a full chassis. I run way more power than your expecting (as do a LOT of guys) and have no issues with their DSE front sub, and a quadralink in the rear. Add in the DSE weld in frame connectors and your good to go. This is unless you want the full frame chassis then go for it, but again not needed for 650 HP....

Cheers
Steve

[DannyZ]

So, keep the front DSE front end and what about the rear? Ditch the Heidts or keep it? If I ditch the Heidts, what is the "Best" replacement that will give me the best ride and handling? Also, I'm not worried about the cost of the full frame over the parts I have now, what would the difference in improvement over the two. It just seams that the sub frame connection setups are better at push pull forces front to back and not at good at the twisting up and down forces?

Also a few people think that I should just use the 396 stroker and run a FITech fuel unit on it and it would make a potent package over and LSX engine, any body have their two cents? I was just wondering how livable a setup like this would be since I have never run one like this and is 490HP considered enough now a days?:EmoteClueless: ?

[raustinss]

Im a Chevelle guy but was looking for a Camaro when i found my car , first welcome and second hell of a deal you got . I agree with the previous posters statements , ditch the heidts stuff then grab the phone and order up DSE rear and subframe connectors . It will be more than enough for what you are planning . As for power, definitely dump that motor and grab a LS or the LT you mentioned you will shed over 200 pds of the front end .

[DannyZ]

Thanks. Has any body rode in a FastTrack framed car and has a review of the ride and handling? Or could someone compare the DSE to the FastTrack?

[214Chevy]

Thanks. Has any body rode in a FastTrack framed car and has a review of the ride and handling? Or could someone compare the DSE to the FastTrack?

Both of the company's are top notch and you cannot go wrong with either one. Again, unless you just want one and don't mind spending the extra money on a full chassis, a DSE subframe is a hell of subframe. Lot's of high horsepower guys on here run DSE subframes and have no issues. I, personally, have never heard of a complaint about any of DSE parts.

[DannyZ]

Yes your right I've heard good things about DSE and I don't have a problem using them at all. I was thinking that if i'm going to be putting 20K in the motor and trans setup would a full frame be at that level of refinement? Which is to say that if the DSE setup is a 8.5 would the FastTrack frame be a 10? If that was the case I might, but if the DSE is a 9.5 maybe not. I'm just looking for a balance between the two ie engine/chassis setups.

[Vegas69]

I'm with these guys, DSE stuff is top notch in the industry. From reputation to performance. I like the long term support aspect as well. I had one of the first 100 frames in my 69. It was easily one of my favorite aspects of that car.

Take it from a guy that built one of these from scratch. It's addicting and the snow ball gets big quick.

I would opt for an ls or lt and the t56. The engine is just to antiquated for a modern pro touring car. I wouldn't put that tko600 in your tractor. :lmao:

Good luck with it.

[DannyZ]

Thanks Todd,

Yes the TKO600 isn't going in to this build, going with a new T56. And I agree on the engine LT4 for sure! I guess since I'm going all in, if the FastTrack is any better then a separate DSENfront and rear setup jointed together?

[Rod P]

if the DSE setup is a 8.5 would the FastTrack frame be a 10? If that was the case I might, but if the DSE is a 9.5 maybe not. I'm just looking for a balance between the two ie engine/chassis setups.

there both 10's and are only as good as the assisting components, what i mean is dont cheap out on shocks, tires, brakes, power steering components, coolers, seats, tuning, and so on

[DannyZ]

Thanks Rob, I appreciate the input and understand what you are saying. I guess I looking at the front and rear components as an upgrade for some that can be done in phases and I'm doing everything at once and just want to make sure I have the best I can buy. i really not worried about the cost, I just don't want to redo things down the road. That's why I respect everyone's input!! Thanks....

[DannyZ]

In making a decision on which direction I will be going, I'm not worried about the cost of the decision. After looking at the DSE quadralink setup and looking at the install and the sub frame connectors I have some thoughts on the comparison between the FastTrack frame and the DSE parts. With DSE you have to weld the sub frames together. I like the idea with the RS FT frame that I can run all the plumbing and lines with the body off the car and easily test fit the body sense it will be bolted together not welded. Also it would seem that a jig built chassis like the RS FT frame would have better front and rear wheel alignment and track alignment sense it is built as one unit verse the DSE separate front and rear units joining with a third factory, the sub frame connectors, plus the fourth variable the body itself. Now all four items need to be aligned and welded together and then you are stuck with alignment good or bad at that point? Also have you guys heard from anybody that has autocrossed the RS FT frame and has any input on the IRS setup and how they like it?

[Flash68]

It sounds like you want someone to tell you to get the RS full frame.

I will be that guy for you.

Just buy it.

:D

Welcome.

[GregWeld]

I think that I have decided to go a different direction with the car. I'm going to sell the new 396 stroker and the Tremco TKO 600 and buy a LT-4 and a T56 trans. Then going to sell the front DSE front sub-frame setup and the Heidts PRO-G IRS rear end and order a Roadster Shop FastTrack Chassis to handle the added HP. I think that this would make more sense? But any input would be nice to here? Thanks Dan



Danny --- While I'm friends with DSE - and RS guys... and I don't give a hoot who's stuff you buy.... I think you're idea about the "handling hp" might be a bit off.... as there are many cars on here with 1000hp and running DSE or SpeedTech or Art Morrison or Chris Alston stuff..... to name but a few of the manufacturers.

Get your plan together with a LOT more details ---- as in ---- EXACTLY what you want when you're all done. Tire sizes - USE - ride quality matter? - Drive a little or a lot? Do all that BEFORE you spend another dime or sell another piece off the car.

[DannyZ]

Thanks Greg and I agree

I plan on the LT4 engine and think I would be happy with the 650HP.
I plan to drive the car a lot on the street and even long cruises, so drive-ability and having it well dialed in is a must. I want the best handling I can get with as nice a ride as possible. I know that all of the builders we are talking about make great parts and I'm surely not trying to put any one down, but more looking at the build process like what you are talking about.

I like the DSE parts but it just seems for the amount of fab work to tie all three sections together, which in the end they are trying to made a full frame setup in a uni-body car for stiffness to improve handling. I sure that a lot of the companies built their kits so they can be done in phases as the car owners budgets will allow, thus the the companies can sell more kits then a full frame setup that is a big price tag to handle at once for some car owners, or they don't want to do a full rework so they can do it in stages and have their car off the road for less time and I get that part.
The DSE is parts are well proven, and I just think that if you do the math on a full frame and a separate stage kits, I think that in the end, that it is pretty close cost wise if you include the added fab needed for the DSE installs versa the full frame. So that's why I'm asking you guys this comparison, I truly value your opinions and your knowledge about these builds, and look forward to hearing your input on these issues. Also, it always seems to me , that in the past, I always say "If I had do do it over..." and it's always good to hear those kind of remarks that makes us better builders!!

[DannyZ]

I love this line Greg

I have less tools than I used to... So I'm going to start buying them back... :D

[GregWeld]

I love this line Greg

I have less tools than I used to... So I'm going to start buying them back... :D




It used to read ---- I have some tools.... one day I'd like to have some skill using them.



Then 3 months ago I was diagnosed with stage IV Klatskin tumor and pronounced that I'd be dead in 6 months.... so sold all my stuff..... and then now that I'm feeling a LOT better - I might have to buy them all back.

[DannyZ]

Man, sorry to hear that, if you lived closer I would loan you some. I own a business, and all I do is buy and sell tools and shop equipment so my warehouse is full of cool shop equipment. Dan

[GregWeld]

Thanks Greg and I agree

I plan on the LT4 engine and think I would be happy with the 650HP.
I plan to drive the car a lot on the street and even long cruises, so drive-ability and having it well dialed in is a must. I want the best handling I can get with as nice a ride as possible. I know that all of the builders we are talking about make great parts and I'm surely not trying to put any one down, but more looking at the build process like what you are talking about.

I like the DSE parts but it just seems for the amount of fab work to tie all three sections together, which in the end they are trying to made a full frame setup in a uni-body car for stiffness to improve handling. I sure that a lot of the companies built their kits so they can be done in phases as the car owners budgets will allow, thus the the companies can sell more kits then a full frame setup that is a big price tag to handle at once for some car owners, or they don't want to do a full rework so they can do it in stages and have their car off the road for less time and I get that part.
The DSE is parts are well proven, and I just think that if you do the math on a full frame and a separate stage kits, I think that in the end, that it is pretty close cost wise if you include the added fab needed for the DSE installs versa the full frame. So that's why I'm asking you guys this comparison, I truly value your opinions and your knowledge about these builds, and look forward to hearing your input on these issues. Also, it always seems to me , that in the past, I always say "If I had do do it over..." and it's always good to hear those kind of remarks that makes us better builders!!




Danny --- This entire front sub - big tire - pro touring deal has grown so fast -- and now you add in there events like USCA - and OUSIC - and Good Guys Auto X -- and blah blah blah...... Now HANDLING is critical and everyone wants it.

That WAS what ProTouring was all about -- drive your 69 Camaro to the track in comfort - tunes blasting thru the cold air blowing ---- track the crap out of it and drive home....

These days that won't have you "competitive".... Now PT cars are C4 Corvettes... and full on race car builds if you want to "run" with the big boys....

Okay -- My point. Most people are simply building a real nice DRIVER - with way too much power (more than they dare use) - and big ass fat rollers front and back. If you can't carry em steam roller style in front - don't bother..... because you'll already be building a car that's dated.

This is where you have many bridges to cross -- crosses to bare - and Y's in the road.

People come here and say -- I want my car to ride nice and still be able to track and be competitive etc. Then we come on and say --- hey buddy.... those aren't as compatible as you think... so HOW competitive do you plan to be... and how much will you compromise -- and how many miles will you REALLY use the car when you build it with too much motor and nasty track suspension.... or you build a car that has all the right NAMES and none of it works together or isn't set up correctly, and you dang near roll the car the first corner entry. LOL


With any of these set ups - you're going to end up cutting the hell out of the car. Your tunnel already won't take the tranny -- the trunk pan and wheel wells are going to come out so you can install tubs and a newer fuel tank and be able to route the exhaust.... and the factory front sub is scrap already with your plans... and now you need to figure out if the LT-4 motor has headers etc that will fit the CHOICES you're going to make.... Not all of these subs are ready for the newest stuff.

My point --- you mention that you don't want to waste resources etc on fabrication and stuff like that --- and I'm just saying I would like you to dig in a lot more if that's a concern and take that list and make sure all of those items are going to work well together... and how many hours of fab you're going to be in to it already.

Right now is the time to engage a designer and get your look on paper --- and your list of GOALS for the car.... and then start to make your choices. There's a ton of them and they all affect your wallet -- your time -- and your eventual enjoyment.

Here's something.... you choose a standard "Ford 9 inch" and some big ass brake rotors and 315's in the stickiest version you can get.... and in ONE track event you find you have pad knockback..... it's affecting your driving.... and now you find the cure is a 9" with full floaters.... and that won't work with the chassis set up you have.....

We call that "CUT TO CURE" around here. LOL


I'm trying to be really really helpful here. You've got a great project -- and got a killer deal on it.... now's the time to make sure you don't waste that "deal" making mistakes. Just being on here shows you're smart and get it.

[GregWeld]

Man, sorry to hear that, if you lived closer I would loan you some. I own a business, and all I do is buy and sell tools and shop equipment so my warehouse is full of cool shop equipment. Dan



I have another buddy in Portland that does that on the side. I bought my 30 gal SnapOn parts washer from him. He'd just bought 4 closed car dealerships "shop" stuff. I was born and raised in Portland. Lived in Lake Oswego - and Parkrose area but haven't lived there since 1975.

There's several Lat G guys that live there!! You need to get together.

[GregWeld]

I spy another "issue" or concern I'd have about the car.

This was a project in a high school car shop..... Who knows what and how many coats and what brands etc were used in the priming of the car? Paint is critical these days and the paints MUST be used in almost a "system" format. And primers have kind of a shelf life of adhesion etc. By that I mean - many times you are to lay a second coat etc within a specific time.... and if you don't then there is another prep procedure etc. We won't know that any of these "rules of paint" have been followed.

Was the body prepped properly at each coat? Or was the class on paint more of a "lay some on and sand it"? Was the intention then to take the body to bare steel before final paint and assembly.

I'm just tossing this out there because I think it's the way you need to think about this particular project.

[DannyZ]

Small world,
I live in Gresham and have a 20,000 sqf shop/warehouse that I run my business out of.

As to the paint, yes since it was a new body I'm going to take it down to bare metal and start over when the time come. I'm not going to chance it with the cost to repainting being so expensive.

But i still need to decide on a full frame or the DSE Kits.

[GregWeld]

IF I had graduated -- I did not -- I would have been class of '71 @ Parkrose.


Talk to Dick Pruitt about paint. He's slow but good - and he does a fantastic paint job. I've also had two cars painted by Steve Frisbee -- but I can't stand the man. Never again.

I own a 40 Ford pickup project that's running a Roadster shop chassis.... I built a 69 Camaro for my Brother in Law (lives there in Portland) using a TCI front clip because he liked the tube look for his blown pro street car... I owned #4 of the C5 clips built by a guy up in Washington (since closed up)... I've built cars using Art Morrison full chassis and others using just their parts....

My '56 Nomad had an early Jim Meyer chassis.... here's where the WRONG choice was the only choice at the time I built that car.... HEIM JOINTS on a street car?? Well lets just say.... don't you do it.... no sir. Not if you like to drive the car.

Each of those cars DROVE great... but were built for their purpose. The tri five AM chassis car was just a driver and that chassis DROVE FANTASTICALLY! My BIL's pro street car drives like a Caddilac.... straight as an arrow.... and tracks great! He has bicycle tires up front.... and 18" wide crap out back.

Much of this will be the install...... and who does the work.

[DannyZ]

Greg,

I understand that I will need to be cutting up the body to get what ever I decide to put under it on it. I'm OK with that. I want it to handle better then my driving abilities are, LOL I understand that I'm not building a purpose built autocross top contender, whose sole purposes is to win on the track period, but more of a car that makes me improve my driving skills by the car having the proper balance of acceleration, braking, handling and ride. I think that I would be happy to have a car that I would look forward to driving at a track and to a track. That's one reason that a couple of the chassis I'm looking at with the IRS rears, so that the off track driving would be improved without a large loss of handling on the track. I feel that if I spent the time to sort the suspension out, no matter what I put in it that in the long run the more time spent on learning and tuning will pay off in the long run. I hear a lot about the DSE parts, but the way that you have to weld everything together to make it stiffer doesn't make sense to me. I was just hoping there might be more guys who are running the Art or Roadster shop full frames out there that would comment on there experiences with their choices? Just like people are saying to don't run the New Heidts IRS setup, I was wondering if anybody has personal experience with running it?