Where is the line, and have I crossed it?

[CJD Automotive]

As I continue putting my car together for it's second go round, I'm finding myself crossing lines I drew for myself years ago, but have good arguments for each, or not. Opinions wanted.

This was primarily going to be street car that I could compete with. That meant no door bars on the cage, reclining seats, etc. I am now questioning the street driver aspect. Exactly where do you really street drive your car? Obviously not Walmart! or anywhere else you can't see it the entire time your away from it, so what, a local car show? Sonic? Maybe just a cruise? I can still do that with door bars and full containment seats. With custom inserts, those seats can be very comfy for the limited amount of time that I would actually "street drive". So I've decided to upgrade the cage to current NASA/IMSA spec. I feel the full containment seat is required for a full cage that is street driven (keeping your head from banging the jungle jim in a street accident) and highly recommended on the track. Now this begs the question I'm wrestling with. Is it a street car or race car? This is not a tube chassis car, still retains the stock floor and firewall, and will still have a complete interior, glass, and A/C (it's Florida and wouldn't have a car without it!), so does that push me back to street car? I realize it's just a word, but to me, a race car is purpose built, well, to race...I don't want a race car, I want a street car, with sound insulation, A/C, stereo, etc...that can also be a race car! I understand the compromise keeps it from achieving either of these goals to it's full potential, but does adding the safety aspects of a race car to my street car, make it a race car???

[ironworks]

The answer lies in what you "REALLY" intend to use it for. If you have never raced before a full on race car might not end up getting used quite like you hoped. But a street car might not be enough.

I don't like rollcages in street cars that you and your passengers don't wear 5 point seats all the time. In a car with a cage you could hit your head on the rollcage in a 30 mph accident and be dead pretty easy. And know one ever puts their seat belt on like they should every time in a race car while on the street.

As long as you enjoy it and can afford to do what ever you want, by all means go right ahead. As long as your cool with how ever it ends up getting used and had fun doing it. Go right ahead. This hobby is supposed to be fun.

[SSLance]

Oh man... I have fought this same fight over and over and over again with my car. Not quite at your level Craig but still the same fight.

Thankfully, I have never repainted my car...so it already has it's share of exterior bumps and bruises. This takes me out of the "don't let it out of my site" camp. I still worry about theft though, so I'm careful where and for how long I leave it sit unattended.

That said, I've put over 2,000 miles on mine already this year. Most of it spent running errands, chauffeuring the wife around on weekends, trips to the Post Office, grocery store etc and some just flat out joy riding and testing runs. I like driving this car, I've tried hard to keep it very street friendly so far.

The forward cage bars and containment seat is the line I believe. At this point, one needs to be wearing a helmet in the driver seat which won't happen on street duty. I think you can still qualify for everything up to wheel to wheel racing without the forward upper cage bars and I believe Ron has a nice containment seat that the upper head supports remove to make it more street friendly. If you want to drive your car on the street, I'd look at those two options. Not being able to see around a full containment seat on the street would be a deal killer for me.

My Recaros are pretty comfy once in them but climbing back out of them is a bit of a pain. They are about as "race seat" as I'd go in a street car. Racetech has some nice very similar seats that I looked hard and long at. As long as your door bars aren't higher than the sides of your race seat, they shouldn't be an issue either.

I'll just add one more thing... I've thought about adding both safety and track performance options that I could also unbolt for street driving, but in reality...you won't take the time to install and then uninstall them for each track event. You'll most likely just put them in and leave them in so consider that. The extreme that I go is I'll stow my 5 point harnesses away when on street and use my factory 3 point belts for restraints. That and some shock adjustments are all I make when switching to race mode.

Hope that helps...

[CJD Automotive]

The answer lies in what you "REALLY" intend to use it for. If you have never raced before a full on race car might not end up getting used quite like you hoped. But a street car might not be enough.

I set my "rules" based on my previous street car that became a stripped out, race car. I never want to have that much money in something again that had to be trailered to a race track to be driven. Trying to find that perfect blend of street and track car!

[ironworks]

I set my "rules" based on my previous street car that became a stripped out, race car. I never want to have that much money in something again that had to be trailered to a race track to be driven. Trying to find that perfect blend of street and track car!


With a previous car, you know what your getting into. I have built a few race cars I don't have the time or the man power to go race and have enough pit support with work and family life. So I just sold them all a few months ago to maybe build a race car I can hang a license plate on that I can still drive fast in the dirt.

[CJD Automotive]

The forward cage bars and containment seat is the line I believe. At this point, one needs to be wearing a helmet in the driver seat which won't happen on street duty.

Well, crap, I'm 100% committed on these aspects for safety because of the speeds this car can run. So your calling it race car....


...not being able to see around a full containment seat on the street would be a deal killer for me.

Yep, I agree. I talked with Butler Seats, and he tells me that if the containment is in your line of sight, it's not designed for you. I'm thinking of having a shorter halo (like a GTLM car) for street and AutoX, and a standard for road course. I think the padded halo, even the shorter one, is a required necessity for a caged car on the street. Killing two birds with one stone when I attend Ron's workshop in Concord next month. Stopping by Butler to get measured and have seats made...yep seats. My wife wants to run Cam-T and local AutoX. Then just swap seats side to side.


..but in reality...you won't take the time to install and then uninstall them for each track event. You'll most likely just put them in and leave them in so consider that.

Yeah, that's why I decided to just do the full cage. Door bars are about seat bolster height, pretty much a GTLM cage.
Wearing the harness may be the only compromise to being a race car...just have to make sure I can reach the cup holder when belted in!

[SSLance]

If you must have the forward upper cage bars, I'd just work extra diligently about tucking them as high and tight as possible. And pad them with the good stuff. The Finch and Tucker 2nd Gen Camaros both have full cages in them that you almost can't see they are so tight, same with the Viking Shocks F Body... Then set the seats as low as you possibly can.

Street driving with a 5 point harness sucks, there is no doubt about it. I tried it once and bailed on the idea. I imagine it would be even worse with a containment seat, between not being able to move at all plus not being able to see to the sides or the rear...that just isn't any fun (or safe) at all to me.

Your car didn't come with factory shoulder harnesses right? If there was any way to graft a set of factory style 3 point belts into your car, I'd seriously look into it (if they will work with your seats that is).

Otherwise, it sounds like you are going to end up with a race car with license plates...that you have to suit up and strap completely into for that trip to the grocery store. Not completely track restrictive but not the most fun street adaptive either. Just be safe mixing components.

[CJD Automotive]

Thanks Lance, I think....your not telling me what I want to hear!!

I already have a cage in the car, just adding the bars to make it IMSA/SCCA legal.

I tucked the forward bars way up in there! Can't even see it from the side.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t445/340cuda/IMG_2666_zpso2mqmmlg.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_2666_zpso2mqmmlg.jpg.html)
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t445/340cuda/IMG_6973_zpsdsrvbc2l.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_6973_zpsdsrvbc2l.jpg.html)

[SSLance]

I already have a cage in the car, just adding the bars to make it IMSA/SCCA legal.



Are you talking about Wheel to Wheel legal? Surely you do not plan on club racing this car...do you?

From what I understand, my 4 point bar is all that is needed to do any IMSA/SCCA time trial, hill climbs or solo trial events. The door bars are only necessary once you get to wheel to wheel events.

Your cage bars look great, that's the only way to do them on a street car in my opinion.

[BMR Sales]

Craig, been there, done that a few times.

I personally have nothing against 5 Pt Belts and I like them and you get used to them.

Your cage is tucked away from you - are you able to get padding around the bars?

[CJD Automotive]

Are you talking about Wheel to Wheel legal? Surely you do not plan on club racing this car...do you?

No, unless I accidentally bang it up, and then yes!...American Iron Extreme.

Need a legal cage for SCTA/ECTA running mile and Bonneville, hence the 'chute, cars over 200 are required to have them. I'm looking at 220-230 in the standing mile and 260-ish in the 5 mile, so want a very safe cage!

[CJD Automotive]

Your cage is tucked away from you - are you able to get padding around the bars?

Not the forward sections. Left enough room to slip zip ties on the side roof bars, where your helmet could contact, so I can use 180 padding there.

[SSLance]

Need a legal cage for SCTA/ECTA running mile and Bonneville, hence the 'chute, cars over 200 are required to have them. I'm looking at 220-230 in the standing mile and 260-ish in the 5 mile, so want a very safe cage!

Gotcha... And I understand completely...

[Rmt]

This really is a tough line to draw.
I've spent too much time not reaching any conclusions also.

At this point, I'm drawing the line at welded-in, high door bars, and a containment seat.

Going to try to "settle for" welded in bars at seat bolster and another angled at shoulder height, and a Sparco street fighter seat, w/ 6 point belts.

Maybe include a higher door bar, with pins.
:EmoteClueless:

[CJD Automotive]

This really is a tough line to draw.
I've spent too much time not reaching any conclusions also.

At this point, I'm drawing the line at welded-in, high door bars, and a containment seat.

Going to try to "settle for" welded in bars at seat bolster and another angled at shoulder height, and a Sparco street fighter seat, w/ 6 point belts.

Maybe include a higher door bar, with pins.
:EmoteClueless:

This is a GTLM door bar. I think I can live with this...maybe.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t445/340cuda/BvveDmiCcAAo2Q5_zpsjtttsosv.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/BvveDmiCcAAo2Q5_zpsjtttsosv.jpg.html)
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t445/340cuda/Contentbilder_0005_M6_GT3_Innenraum_fin.jpg.resour ce.1441961417507_zpsnsuen4sx.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/Contentbilder_0005_M6_GT3_Innenraum_fin.jpg.resour ce.1441961417507_zpsnsuen4sx.jpg.html)

[Rmt]

To me, the front part makes it difficult to get in and out of on a regular basis.

And the back bar is quite a bit lower than what Ron specified as "needed" in the 'prints I got.

I'm going to probably compromise somewhere between the two.

I guess the line is, "whatever you can live with?"

[Rmt]

This is a GTLM door bar. I think I can live with this...maybe.


Are you going to keep the door bars removable, or weld them in?

[CJD Automotive]

I guess the line is, "whatever you can live with?"

And that's the million dollar question. Just don't know until you put it all in. My wife is telling me to put the full cage and seats for safety, and I quote, "Yes it might be hard to get in and out of, but at least you'll climb out and not have to be carried out because your hurt".

[CJD Automotive]

Are you going to keep the door bars removable, or weld them in?


Fully welded. It's much safer, and as Lance as eluded, I'll get lazy and just leave them in anyway!

[Rmt]

yes, that's kind of why I'm leaning toward the welded-in "too low" door bars.
Probably safer than pinned-in higher door bars.

Definitely so, if the high bars are not installed for "that one time..."

[NOT A TA]

My 70 Firebird evolved over 15 years from a street car. Once I started taking the car to drag strips, road tracks, mile events, etc. the tech inspectors kept saying you should install harnesses, roll bar, fire system, and other things. One time at Road Atlanta the NASA tech guys came to my pit area between sessions to have a lil chat explaining that barreling down the back straight near 140 MPH with only a helmet, cotton clothes, and 4 point Schroth ASM harnesses in a 40 year old car with no fire suit, air bags or other modern safety equipment was pushing my luck.

And so it began, full cage for attempting 200 MPH LSR's. Kirkey full containment NASCAR seats. I couldn't believe I was I cutting up thousand dollar seats to make them fit the car and shortened the sides of the halos to see for the street. Two fire systems, one for fuel tank and engine suppression and one for passengers. Six point Schroths for harnesses. I struggled with the race vs street thing for a long time while continuing to attend events. Now I'm currently rebuilding the car after a complete frame off, bare metal restoration/rebuild. I decided on a race car with license plates. Better to put up with inconvenience street driving and be alive after an incident. I have other cars I can use for street if the Firebird is to unrefined.

This time, no HVAC or sound deadening but retain carpeting, headliner, a faux rear seat and basic stereo. Rear firewall sealed, front firewall mostly sealed other than steering shaft and electrical.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/NOTATA/Firebird/bird003.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Firebird/bird003.jpg.html)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/NOTATA/Firebird/Firebird016.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Firebird/Firebird016.jpg.html)

[DBasher]

Need a legal cage for SCTA/ECTA running mile and Bonneville, hence the 'chute, cars over 200 are required to have them. I'm looking at 220-230 in the standing mile and 260-ish in the 5 mile, so want a very safe cage!

I love the car and what you're doing with it! I've got nothing to add other than make sure you read and reread the SCTA rules and know what class you'd be running in. You can easily run the 150 club but to get on the 5 mile you'll be looked over really well...maybe run no class and Time Only (TO)

:cheers:

[CJD Automotive]

Better to put up with inconvenience street driving and be alive after an incident.

Super nice car!

I agree, just wish you hadn't shown that side pic! Holy crap, that must suck to get in and out of!

Seriously, thanks for that pic, as it gives me a visual of what I'm doing.

Looking forward to meeting and running some track days in Florida with you...I'll be the one with the windows up and A/C on!

[CJD Automotive]

I love the car and what you're doing with it! I've got nothing to add other than make sure you read and reread the SCTA rules and know what class you'd be running in. You can easily run the 150 club but to get on the 5 mile you'll be looked over really well...maybe run no class and Time Only (TO)

:cheers:

Thanks! I'll run either B/BGC or B/BGALT. Both blown gas classes, just not sure if I can stay in Competition Coupe with my aero mods, or will get bumped to Altered Coupe. Either way, doesn't matter, it's not like any records will be in danger, just want to run the car on the salt and get into the 200 MPH club. Sucks that you don't get anything anymore unless you set a record.

[Panteracer]

I have gone back and forth as many have with my cars
but I think driving on the street is the important thing

That being said I have a full cage in the Pantera that is tucked
high and cannot be hit with me in the seat... It has been 170 plus
at the Silver State and runs 140-150 at the tracks

I really should have more side protection etc
and a better seat
I saw Big Red a few years back and the cage in
that car looks like a funny car plus with all the bars
on the roof

If you are planning on running 200 plus I would be sure to put
as much as you can in the car as at those speeds roof flaps
would not be a bad idea.. actually designed by a Pantera guy
who used to work for one of the Nascar teams

Bob

[CJD Automotive]

If you are planning on running 200 plus I would be sure to put as much as you can in the car as at those speeds roof flaps
would not be a bad idea..

Thanks and yep, already bought a used single flap from a Craftsman truck. I'm thinking just putting it at the rear of the roof in the middle. I looked at the car "pairs", but those flaps are a lot bigger than people think, well the under box part. Those "stock" car roofs are like board flat, and I simply can't fit the paired flap under box in my curved roof.

[Try2paz]

The answer lies in what you "REALLY" intend to use it for. If you have never raced before a full on race car might not end up getting used quite like you hoped. But a street car might not be enough.

I don't like rollcages in street cars that you and your passengers don't wear 5 point seats all the time. In a car with a cage you could hit your head on the rollcage in a 30 mph accident and be dead pretty easy. And know one ever puts their seat belt on like they should every time in a race car while on the street.

As long as you enjoy it and can afford to do what ever you want, by all means go right ahead. As long as your cool with how ever it ends up getting used and had fun doing it. Go right ahead. This hobby is supposed to be fun.

I agree with this statement, I see roll bars / cages in cars fairly common with no head rest, no padding with a lap belt. One hit of that bar in a roll over you're a goner. A kid out in the east bay (brentwood) recently rolled over in a jeep with a cage inside and died from the cage.

[BMR Sales]

And that's the million dollar question. Just don't know until you put it all in. My wife is telling me to put the full cage and seats for safety, and I quote, "Yes it might be hard to get in and out of, but at least you'll climb out and not have to be carried out because your hurt".

Last time I had a Cage with Door Bars in a Street Car, I got used to the contortions of getting in & out!

[Shmoov69]

200+ mph......? You already got your answer! :y0!:

You can have removable side bars that are not the hokey pin in style but real solid bars. I have these for my door bars and my back bar for the belts. LOVE them!!
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Body-Parts-Roll-Cages-Frames/Interlocking-Tube-Clamps.aspx?t_c=81&t_s=493&t_pt=4743&t_pn=TGI180111-KIT&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping&emlprox=out&ppcfon=1&gp=1&gclid=CJra_fOjvc0CFUkkhgodGBAFcg

[daign]

plan to run speed events or push the limits of yourself and the car? full cage.

I'm at the same junction with my own car. I'm best off caging it the way I drive regardless, even at track days/lead follow or the highway.

Unibody muscle cars (camaros especially) do not hold up well in crashes. In fact its scary to see photos. My biggest problem is that my headrest goes beyond the rear window front trim (b-pillar if there was one) Its going to basically have to be in the back seat which I hate, but it could save my life

[daign]

I agree with this statement, I see roll bars / cages in cars fairly common with no head rest, no padding with a lap belt. One hit of that bar in a roll over you're a goner. A kid out in the east bay (brentwood) recently rolled over in a jeep with a cage inside and died from the cage.


agreed. see WAY too many PT cars without padding and the bars right above their adjustable/folding seat. NOT good.

I have my 5 points mounted to a bar under the rear deck for proper geometry but feel its still not safe.

Cage and AC are next. Getting old ;)

[Neil B]

It's a tough call and I agree it depends on primary usage. When I converted my first Mustang from open track toy to full road race car, I put a full cage and Kirkey seat in it. I never drove it on the street again. My C5 Corvette had a six point cage in it with 5 point harnesses. I could not run the door bars in it and realistically still get in and out of the car in the garage and parking spaces. But I felt naked in the same C5 at the Texas Mile going 200 mph. I would never run an Optima-style event at a large speedway without a full cage. My current 69 Corvette street/track car project is getting a 4 point cage, Kirkey seat, harnesses, halon fire extinguisher. and a removable steering wheel so I can get out of the car over the side pipes.