Speedtech's new 3rd Gen Camaro suspension

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey everyone, more great news! This 91 Camaro RS followed us home a couple months ago...

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag70/SpeedTechPerformance/91%20Camaro%2001%2010%2072_zpswl8friqx.jpg

These cars have a great out of the box performance handling platform, but since we like to play so much, can't leave well enough alone and want to make everything better, we've decided that adding 3rd gen Camaro suspension to our line up was in order. We're anxious to see more of them competing in CAM and the big Pro Touring events, and we've got 3 steps on the R&D board to get things rolling.

Step one is to develop a bolt in performance suspension system including lower front control arms, a better and adjustable front strut, Articulink rear trailing arms, rear coilover conversion, and upgrade it to our better Torque Arm. We're not reinventing the wheel here, just making it much better. Some of these parts are currently already in pre production.

Step 2 is to develop an LS/T56 swap kit. Our RS sports a V6 with a blown head gasket, so naturally it will likely get a 525+ hp LS3 crate engine backed by a T56 Magnum to take it's place.

Step 3 is the real good stuff! For those that want to play with the big boys we'll be developing a new ExtReme front suspension clip that will eliminate the struts and use the same all new suspension found on our new ExtReme 1st and 2nd gen Camaro subframes! This is the most forward thinking and advanced geometry and capabilities available, better than any other Pro Touring suspension currently on the market. Part of the parameters for all ExtReme suspensions is to have a super low ride height, more available suspension travel, fit 315s under the fenders while maintaining 30+ degrees of steering angle, and have geometry that maximizes tire contact on all wheels while cornering.

I found this pic of a nice slammed IROC on the internet. Imagine this stance with 315s tucked underneath all around and a suspension that sticks like a full bore race car. Now this is gonna be cool!

We're pretty excited about this one, tell us what you think!

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag70/SpeedTechPerformance/7e0ac3b57791dd7190fdac7393dc4a77_zpsjfrqstqa.jpg

[Musclerodz]

I'm so ready to have another 3rd gen.

[James OLC]

As I suddenly seem to have some of these around this house I will be watching your development program with interest.

[Tuske427]

I had an '84 Trans Am for 19 years, and I miss that car. It would be fun to have another one day, and having a good suspension system available to improve handling and fit wide wheels would be great. I wouldn't prioritize slamming it per se (with just a 1" drop on my car I had enough trouble with speed bumps and curbs) I'd focus on handling like it's on rails with big meats and not compromise the steering.

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Guys & Gals,

Just chiming in to let everyone know this new 3rd gen F-Body clip has the same optimum geometry & set-up I designed for all of the Speedtech front clips & full chassis. Although each front suspension was optimized for the application, this one is very similar to the 1st & 2nd gen clips.


Video for RSRT Designed Speedtech eXtreme Subframes & Chassis


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2S3szGr8UI&feature=youtu.be


To watch this In-Depth Video on YouTube ... Click HERE (https://youtu.be/h2S3szGr8UI).

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New Speedtech eXtreme Front Subframe & Suspension Package
New Cutting Edge Design Includes:

Ron Sutton Race Technology geometry built-in.
Strong Box type laser cut and jig welded construction - reduced weight over factory subframe.
Special subframe width & shape allowing 315 front tires.
Next-Gen ATS 7075 Forged Aluminum Spindles.
High-Ackerman steering arms for ATS spindles.
C7 heavy duty bearings & hubs.
Speedtech high clearance upper & lower tubular control arms
Upper control arms feature additional caster adjustability.
Control arms powder coated gloss black and fully assembled with Delrin bushings.
3-piece Speedway Engineering sway bar – Choice of rates from 400# to 1300#
Sweet racing DUAL POWER rack & pinion steering.
Accepts LSX engines with Speedtech fabricated oil pan and motor mounts.
Adjustable engine frame stands allows 3/4" fore & aft range.
Fully adjustable rear cross member fits all GM transmissions as well as T-56 and TKO.
Factory alignment holes offer ease of aligning frame to body and bumpers.
Mounting hardware, instructions, and custom alignment specs.
Comes bare. Powder coat options available.
Built-in tow/tie down hooks eliminate strapping around painted frames.
Ridetech single adjustable coil-over shocks, including delrin thrust washers & adjusting wrench.
Hypercoil coil-over springs – Wide choice of rates.



Available as Bolt-In Clips for:
67-69 GM F-Bodies Camaros & Firebirds
70-81 GM F-Bodies Camaros & Firebirds/Trans Ams
68-74 GM X-Bodies Novas, Venturas, Skylark & other GM X-Body Cars
and now ... 82-92 3rd gen F-Bodies: Camaros & Firebirds

OPTIONS:
• Powder Coat Subframe – Flat Black
• Powder Coat Subframe – Semi-Gloss Black
• Powder Coat Subframe – Gloss Black
• Powder Coat Subframe – Gun Metal Grey
• Powder Coat Subframe – Silver
• Billet Aluminum Body Mount Set
• Engine Bay Round Tube Chassis Down Bar Supports
• Double Joint Steering Shaft Kit
• LSx Engine Adapter Plates
• Speedtech 1 7/8" LSx Headers, Mill Finish
• Speedtech LSx 1 7/8" Headers, Show Polished Finish
• Ron Sutton Tailored Suspension Tech Service #40STP
• Ron Sutton Tailored Brake Tech Service #29
• Ron Sutton Secret Sauce Digressive Track-Star Valving added to Ridetech Single Adj Shocks
• Ridetech Triple Adj Shocks w/Digressive Track-Star Valving
• JRI Shocks w/Digressive Track-Star Valving in Single, double or triple adjustable



For more information ... OR To Place Your Order ... Contact Ron Sutton Race Technology:
Phone: (916) 834-8051
Email: [email protected]
Address: 11374 Amalgam Way, Suite K, Gold River, CA 95670
Website: www.RonSuttonRaceTechnology.com (http://www.RonSuttonRaceTechnology.com)

.

[Ron Sutton]

As I suddenly seem to have some of these around this house I will be watching your development program with interest.


Hey James,

The geometry on this clip is in line with my TA2 race clip, except the Speedtech clip puts the roll center in the optimum spot regardless of how much you travel the front end. This is the first time I've achieved this ... so this clip would work awesome for any setup a person chooses. So if someone runs a stiff spring set-up & only travels the front end around an inch ... the roll center is at 2" above ground, which is optimum for that setup. If they high travel the front end ... say 3" ... with soft springs & a larger sway bar ... the roll center is at ground level ... again, optimum for that setup. in moderate travel ... around 2" ... the RC is at 1" - perfect.

The dual power Sweet rack will handle the load from the high grip suspension & 315 front tires (TW200 or slicks) with ease. No rebuilt $300 OEM racks here. This puppy cost almost $1000, but it is built to take the loads we're creating these days.

I forget if you have my AutoX-Star or Track-Star valved Ridetech shocks on the OLC Camaro. But these clips are available with my Track-Star "secret sauce" digressive valved shocks in single or triple adjustable.

* Quick side note: On Friday May 27th, I went shock testing with a championship GT team that races in the Western Endurance GT car series at Buttonwillow (because it's a bumpy track - perfect for shock testing). They ran a best of 1:49.9 with their Bilstein race shocks. Then ran a best of 1:46.8 ... 3.1 seconds quicker ... my Track-Star valved Ridetech triples. The driver couldn't believe the grip increase. These are the same shocks I make available to the Pro-Touring world, and are optional on this Speedtech clip.

All the geometry on this Speedtech ExtReme front clip is spot on:
* Roll Center location & dynamic migration - Optimum grip
* Bump steer changes only .001" in 3" travel
* Anti-dive is 40% - allowing us to run softer springs & still achieve a low roll angle
* Ackerman is 100% - Creating optimum slip angle on inside front tire
* Dynamic Camber/Caster creates optimum contact patches on BOTH front tires
* Jacking effect is Nil - allowing softer springs & still achieve a low roll angle
* Front Sway bar rate range is from 400# to over 3000#

This would be extremely racy for your new 3rd gen.


:trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302: :trophy-1302:

[James OLC]

Thanks Ron - we can chat more (I owe you a call as it is).

The '89 has been evolving well but the last weekend out was a tad cold and wet:

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i423/onelapcamaro/1989%20Camaro%20Z28/IMG_1948%201_zps452icghp.jpg

This should be a fun week though, I sourced a hood, fenders, and quarter panels from an IROC series car - they should finally be here this week (along with a new set of Toyo RR tires).

Suspension is about "maxed" out for the "stock" design so I am always looking at new options.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Thanks for chiming in Ron!

That's a pretty sweet sleeper there Tuske! I think another should definitely be on the build list!

Looks like fun James! "Suspension is about "maxed" out for the "stock" design so I am always looking at new options." We anticipate being able to help with that!

[Evan Iroc-Z]

I'm all in. I keep going back and forth on selling mine, but maybe with the right set of parts I would be willing to hang onto it.

http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29/ShakopeeErds/IMG_20130618_204554_613.jpg (http://s430.photobucket.com/user/ShakopeeErds/media/IMG_20130618_204554_613.jpg.html)

[InfernalVortex]

I love mine but most of my suspension work has been done for a while. Im usually top 5 in raw times at the local autocrosses so I feel like the car works really well.

1. Ground clearance with big exhaust is a pain on these cars. Thats because of the transmission crossmember. I have an old Skulte piece that has clearance for duals, but he doesnt make them anymore. Until Holley's new LS swap crossmember, there isnt much available (I think Hawks has some flimsy looking piece) in terms of off the shelf crossmembers with decent dual exhaust clearance. Check out Holley's piece and see if you guys can do something like that. It's a niche in the market that i think gets ignored. Everyone makes these huge square tube crossmembers that hang WAAAAY too low. Obviously you'd need different ones for a T56 or a T5 or a 700r4 vs a LS 4l60e, but I just feel lik ethat's something all the normal performance parts fabricators totally ignore.

2. And my pet issue, it'd be cool to have a crossmember like that with a torque arm mount packaged on it. Or perhaps some sort of standalone torque arm crossmember that isnt super short. I avoid the super short ones for the handling stuff... I'd rather it not get upset on front-rear weight transfers. Im not sure if your crossmember has a torque arm mount or not, yet.

There are some obscure but very effective suspension modifications that tweak the roll centers and roll axis that have enormous benefits in car stability. I woudlnt call it maxed out. I'd call it pretty flawed, actually, but it has a lot of potential. Note that the fourth gens with their SLA front suspension dont have major transition stability problems even though they have the same rear suspension.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee213/InfernalVortex/JC/12968004_1280071958675730_8298755001287915667_o_zp sqtpgchgb.jpg

Ron Sutton Race Technology geometry built-in.
Strong Box type laser cut and jig welded construction - reduced weight over factory subframe.
Special subframe width & shape allowing 315 front tires.
Next-Gen ATS 7075 Forged Aluminum Spindles.
High-Ackerman steering arms for ATS spindles.
C7 heavy duty bearings & hubs.
Speedtech high clearance upper & lower tubular control arms
Upper control arms feature additional caster adjustability.
Control arms powder coated gloss black and fully assembled with Delrin bushings.
3-piece Speedway Engineering sway bar – Choice of rates from 400# to 1300#
Sweet racing DUAL POWER rack & pinion steering.
Accepts LSX engines with Speedtech fabricated oil pan and motor mounts.
Adjustable engine frame stands allows 3/4" fore & aft range.
Fully adjustable rear cross member fits all GM transmissions as well as T-56 and TKO.
Factory alignment holes offer ease of aligning frame to body and bumpers.
Mounting hardware, instructions, and custom alignment specs.
Comes bare. Powder coat options available.
Built-in tow/tie down hooks eliminate strapping around painted frames.
Ridetech single adjustable coil-over shocks, including delrin thrust washers & adjusting wrench.
Hypercoil coil-over springs – Wide choice of rates.

Im eagerly awaiting to see how much of this you guys can implement. There have been a lot of us waiting for a decent fast ratio, decent turn radius power rack setup for these cars! Not sure if a full front subframe is really a possibility given how these cars are put together...

[Ron Sutton]

Im eagerly awaiting to see how much of this you guys can implement. There have been a lot of us waiting for a decent fast ratio, decent turn radius power rack setup for these cars! Not sure if a full front subframe is really a possibility given how these cars are put together...

It is a ways off before Speedtech has this front suspension clip ready to sell ... primarily because there are ExtReme clips & full frame designs for other cars ahead of it.

When we replace the clip with my new design, it will achieve everything I've listed. For all intents & purposes, the suspension & steering design is done. What Speedtech will work on .... down the road ... is where & how to tie the new clip into the unibody.

A full clip is doable. Frankly, almost anything is doable with fabrication. It just won't be a simple "bolt-in" like the clips for 1st & 2nd Gen F-bodies & 68-74 X-Bodies (Novas, etc).

While I am excited this clip is coming down the road ... there are several other cars getting ExtReme clips and/or frames before it. Really looking forward to the completion of the 68-72 A-Body ExtReme Chassis, and subsequently the 64-67 A-Body ExtReme Chassis.


:cheers:

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Thanks for the insight Infernal V. All that is great feedback and things we can think about. We just recently launched a new frame connector/ lateral cross brace/ torque arm front mount for the 1st gen cars. Something like this will be on the list of can we implement it for the 3rd gens too. Currently we use a bolt in crossmember for our Torque arm front mounts. We also typically use an adjustable trans crossmember for different trans opttions. We're all about low stance and lots of ground clearance so we'll pay attention to your comments as we get into the design. Thanks again!

[InfernalVortex]

It is a ways off before Speedtech has this front suspension clip ready to sell ... primarily because there are ExtReme clips & full frame designs for other cars ahead of it.

When we replace the clip with my new design, it will achieve everything I've listed. For all intents & purposes, the suspension & steering design is done. What Speedtech will work on .... down the road ... is where & how to tie the new clip into the unibody.

A full clip is doable. Frankly, almost anything is doable with fabrication. It just won't be a simple "bolt-in" like the clips for 1st & 2nd Gen F-bodies & 68-74 X-Bodies (Novas, etc).

While I am excited this clip is coming down the road ... there are several other cars getting ExtReme clips and/or frames before it. Really looking forward to the completion of the 68-72 A-Body ExtReme Chassis, and subsequently the 64-67 A-Body ExtReme Chassis.


:cheers:




Given how these cars are currently valued, I'd do the same. They will pick up, but it's not quite their time to shine yet. The market for something that extensive probably hasnt truly materialized yet.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Yep. With this one we're pushing to get ahead of the game and perhaps be instrumental in that rise in popularity for these cars. Imagine being $10K + ahead of the game by buying a decent $1000-$1500 platform to start with rather than $10K for a beat builder. If performance handling in a decent looking car is more of the end goal than sporting a 69 Camaro, this should be a hot market.

[HellPhish89]

It is a ways off before Speedtech has this front suspension clip ready to sell ... primarily because there are ExtReme clips & full frame designs for other cars ahead of it.

When we replace the clip with my new design, it will achieve everything I've listed. For all intents & purposes, the suspension & steering design is done. What Speedtech will work on .... down the road ... is where & how to tie the new clip into the unibody.

A full clip is doable. Frankly, almost anything is doable with fabrication. It just won't be a simple "bolt-in" like the clips for 1st & 2nd Gen F-bodies & 68-74 X-Bodies (Novas, etc).

While I am excited this clip is coming down the road ... there are several other cars getting ExtReme clips and/or frames before it. Really looking forward to the completion of the 68-72 A-Body ExtReme Chassis, and subsequently the 64-67 A-Body ExtReme Chassis.


:cheers:



2 big things many 3rd gen fbody owners would like:

a choice of spindles.

ability to add a power rack and pinion.

there are quite a few who want spindles and rack and pinion. :) there have been various companies that have cast new spindles and fabricated them and ultimately they all disappeared.

[Ron Sutton]

2 big things many 3rd gen fbody owners would like:

a choice of spindles.

ability to add a power rack and pinion.

there are quite a few who want spindles and rack and pinion. :) there have been various companies that have cast new spindles and fabricated them and ultimately they all disappeared.

Are you referring to the Strut spindles?

[HellPhish89]

Are you referring to the Strut spindles?

yep.

Would very much like a 1.5-2" drop and modification to allow easier installation of a rack and pinion

[Blake Foster]

yep.

Would very much like a 1.5-2" drop and modification to allow easier installation of a rack and pinion

I actually thought about seeing if there was a way to adapt the AFX spindle to the strut mount but do not think it is possible as the AFX spindle was not designed to carry the load on the top side ball joint, thinking most would want to move to a coil over set up. so that is a no go. even trying to figure an upper mount to the strut and require a coil spring in the LCA will nt really work as there is not enough material on the top side to machine mounting bolt holes into it.
so back to the drawing board.
beside the strut just limits the tire size too much.

[HellPhish89]

I actually thought about seeing if there was a way to adapt the AFX spindle to the strut mount but do not think it is possible as the AFX spindle was not designed to carry the load on the top side ball joint, thinking most would want to move to a coil over set up. so that is a no go. even trying to figure an upper mount to the strut and require a coil spring in the LCA will nt really work as there is not enough material on the top side to machine mounting bolt holes into it.
so back to the drawing board.
beside the strut just limits the tire size too much.
It almost looks like they are similar-ish looking designs that could have tooling adapted to provide the correct mounting point for the strut (yea, I know, thats actually easier and cheaper said than done). I know you basically have things right there in front of you but:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8476/8083542005_67331ff2af_h.jpg
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/cartimages/prd_279.jpg


Problem with coil over setups is that the strut towers on thridgens are not meant to carry the load of springs. They require a bit of bracing and such so the metal doesnt tear. I'm sticking with stock style springs in either case, many do.

The steering arm would have to be a major design point. The stock one isnt in the best position.

Anyways, just my humble analysis :shrugs:

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Thanks for the input. We're well under way with our 55-57 Chevy chassis system, next is early 64-67 Chevelle and then the 3rd gen. I'll keep everyone posted as we get closer.

[preston]

3rd gen Camaros were out of fashion for so long, the dreaded mullet factor.
But now they are getting pretty hot ! I remember when there was that Nelson Engine Racing twin turbo totally sano 3rd gen that was being shown around in fact it was in Hot Rod. I heard it never actually lived up to its potential (build issues) but I remember seeing it and thinking for the first time "wow, those cars can look really cool actually !"

As you say they are actually really good platforms even using stock improvements. With a Ron Sutton setup they'll be off the hook !

Such a cheap starting platform too.

And a huge step up in aero from 1st and 2nd gen Camaros or any muscle car.

[HellPhish89]

I would liek to clarify something.. the spindle I ws speaking of wasnt like the santhuffs. they were a cast version like the stockers but were dropped spindles. a dropped front with a shorter steering pivot would be awesome. possibly with the ability to use modern hubs..

[Ben@SpeedTech]

I like your thinking!

[Yukon Cornelius]

Got excited for a minute and thought we'd see something new here.

[Ron Sutton]

Got excited for a minute and thought we'd see something new here.

I can't speak for Speedtech ... but I think our collaboration on the 3rd Gen is a ways off. I know they are crazy busy with building the new ExtReme front frame & suspension packages as well as the full chassis. They are selling a ton of these.

I'm wrapping up a rear suspension design for them that I don't have permission to talk about details yet. Plus I'm focused on a zillion things here at Ron Sutton Race Technology from a new line of 30 brakes, 31 engines & 26 suspension packages. Ridetech & I have a lot going on as well, including our 2017 Workshop tour. So the 3rd Gen isn't on my schedule yet.

:cheers:

[Yukon Cornelius]

So Ron, this was announced a little pre-maturely?

[Formula364]

Good News!
I have 2" drop spindles - roadrace version from RaceCraft. They are no longer offered. Very happy to have them. Here are some pics.
They are paired with: Spohn tubular adj a-arms and strut mounts, alum hubs, 2 pc 13" rotors & FSL 6pot calipers inside stock wheels!, and swivel cup weight jacks (bolt thru frame rail).

These limit me to 8" wheel. I've always felt that 275 is perfect for street (ruts) - not that 300+ is bad. My thought was a 245 with better RC is equal/competitive to a 275 with worse RC and scrub radius.

Some more thinkin' to do.

[mitch_04]

I think this thread should be closed until it contains updates from Ron or Speedtech... my hopes keep jumping and the falling hard! (Just a joke)

Then again, the longer they take the more time I have to get the funds....

[HellPhish89]

Good News!
I have 2" drop spindles - roadrace version from RaceCraft. They are no longer offered. Very happy to have them. Here are some pics.
They are paired with: Spohn tubular adj a-arms and strut mounts, alum hubs, 2 pc 13" rotors & FSL 6pot calipers inside stock wheels!, and swivel cup weight jacks (bolt thru frame rail).

These limit me to 8" wheel. I've always felt that 275 is perfect for street (ruts) - not that 300+ is bad. My thought was a 245 with better RC is equal/competitive to a 275 with worse RC and scrub radius.

Some more thinkin' to do.
That spindle does provide a decent start point. The biggest improvement that can be made I can see is moving/shortening the steering arm.

I would love to see X-Rays of those welds. After seeing the failure on the non-road race version on TGO (yea, I know, he didnt take heed to the warning on their website) I have suspicions. I feel like a fabricated spindle like that should be welded to the same strict standards that are used for AWS D1.1 3G and 4G tests or something similar to it.

[Blake Foster]

I think this thread should be closed until it contains updates from Ron or Speedtech... my hopes keep jumping and the falling hard! (Just a joke)

Then again, the longer they take the more time I have to get the funds....

You may be right. we had planned on starting this year but jsut too many other things to contend with first.

Sorry to get you all excited.

[Formula364]

That spindle does provide a decent start point. The biggest improvement that can be made I can see is moving/shortening the steering arm.

I would love to see X-Rays of those welds. After seeing the failure on the non-road race version on TGO (yea, I know, he didnt take heed to the warning on their website) I have suspicions. I feel like a fabricated spindle like that should be welded to the same strict standards that are used for AWS D1.1 3G and 4G tests or something similar to it.

I've had both the drag and roadrace versions in-hand. I'm confident with the beefier roadrace version! Yeah, the other guy road raced the drag version, and refused the upgrade when it was offered to him (post failure). I keep it bare to make it easier to inspect. RaceCraft put their best guy on these. I feel fortunate to have them.

I do wonder about aftermarket tie rod ends that might allow me to fit them inside an 18" barrel...hmmm....But I do prefer 17's and some sidewall at Road America. Technology improves and offers alternatives.

By altering the steering arm, you mess with the angle of the tie rods. Then you could alter the drag link to compensate, but.....then I'd get lost and over my head. Here is a crude drawing of the front steer.

This proposed set-up is a clean sheet design and looks promising! I'll look-on with envy, but it's beyond my finances.

I do tour with my car - want to drive it in all the lower 48 states. I have MS & LA (Nawlins trip), and a New England trip (everything North of Yankee stadium) left. Delaware was difficult to incorporate, but I did it. I don't think 315's will be practical for touring. Though this design will keep them flat.

For now, I try to keep scrub close to zero by 8" wheels, SAI mods, and use moderate camber. The drop spindles and lower PHB help the roll axis inclination, also. And, I continually look for ways to be able to go wider, but I drive my car alot - 240k and counting (all mine, original owner). I'm lucky to see one HPDE a year. These cars are fun to drive, and with low unsprung weight and an LS2, it has exceeded my expectations.

[HellPhish89]

I've had both the drag and roadrace versions in-hand. I'm confident with the beefier roadrace version! Yeah, the other guy road raced the drag version, and refused the upgrade when it was offered to him (post failure). I keep it bare to make it easier to inspect. RaceCraft put their best guy on these. I feel fortunate to have them.

I do wonder about aftermarket tie rod ends that might allow me to fit them inside an 18" barrel...hmmm....But I do prefer 17's and some sidewall at Road America. Technology improves and offers alternatives.

By altering the steering arm, you mess with the angle of the tie rods. Then you could alter the drag link to compensate, but.....then I'd get lost and over my head. Here is a crude drawing of the front steer.

<snip>

shorter/repositioned steering arm would mean more affordable rack and pinion options. that would be the reason for an option for the redesigned arm for me.

Sounds like you made your bird a hell of a GT car.

[Formula364]

Someone over on FRRAX has the stock spindle blueprint:

[cjsgarage]

We've a got a pretty well handling one as a sort of sponsored shop project.

Blake and Ben:
These cars would need body modification to fit the 315s in the back. The tubs need some alteration. We have 275s all the way around, no rubs on a factory body. Actually, they may need modification in the front, too. The wheel wells may not be wide enough to allow a 315 to sweep. I know we're dangerously close to rubbing the body kit wit our 275s.

Also, we dropped an LS and t56 into this car. We used the 4th gen Camaro rear end and torque arm along with the swap. Bolts on. The trans mount is fabbed, engine mounts are from Hawks Third Gen.

Exhaust clearance is a big issue on these cars. There's not room to go duals over the top if you have the panhard bar in place. We went with a Fays2 Watts link and elected to dump the exhaust before the rear end. In factory form, they have a weird pocket under the passenger front floorboard where the catalytic converter lived.
After that, there's no reliefs in the floor to fit exhaust. Adding a torque arm further cramped our room.

But just so you know, a 4th gen tank will drop in place of the third gen unit and you can sorta reuse most of the fuel lines as they are. Makes that bit a no brainer. Also, the pedals from a 4th gen will slide in place of the third gen stuff.. so you can use the stock clutch master.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Great info, thanks!

[HellPhish89]

We've a got a pretty well handling one as a sort of sponsored shop project.

Blake and Ben:
These cars would need body modification to fit the 315s in the back. The tubs need some alteration. We have 275s all the way around, no rubs on a factory body. Actually, they may need modification in the front, too. The wheel wells may not be wide enough to allow a 315 to sweep. I know we're dangerously close to rubbing the body kit wit our 275s.

Also, we dropped an LS and t56 into this car. We used the 4th gen Camaro rear end and torque arm along with the swap. Bolts on. The trans mount is fabbed, engine mounts are from Hawks Third Gen.

Exhaust clearance is a big issue on these cars. There's not room to go duals over the top if you have the panhard bar in place. We went with a Fays2 Watts link and elected to dump the exhaust before the rear end. In factory form, they have a weird pocket under the passenger front floorboard where the catalytic converter lived.
After that, there's no reliefs in the floor to fit exhaust. Adding a torque arm further cramped our room.

But just so you know, a 4th gen tank will drop in place of the third gen unit and you can sorta reuse most of the fuel lines as they are. Makes that bit a no brainer. Also, the pedals from a 4th gen will slide in place of the third gen stuff.. so you can use the stock clutch master.

Hooker makes an over the axle true dual system for 3rd gen now.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey all you 3rd gen guys, the time has arrived to resurrect this thread! After getting a bunch of other projects finished up and launching a new ExtReme chassis for 64-67 Chevelles, '60-66 C10s, and '53-56 Ford F100's we're ready to get back to the mullet racer '91 Camaro platform. As has been said this is a great car to begin with, they're out there to be had at still reasonable prices, they come with a liot of attached memories as they were prowling the streets when many of us were at a great time of our lives, and hey, they really aren't bad looking when you get rid of the overly fat protruding rear tires and stick on auto parts store bling aisle specials.

With that in mind we're heading forward to completely redesigning the platform, adapting our proven to be the best overall design in Pro-Touring suspension into the 3rd gen Camaro/Firebird platform. You'll see the same layout found in previous ExtReme platforms of upper and lower control arms with all that leading edge geometry, and at this point we're after 315 tires up front. Again we're proposing this won't be just replacement parts that improve over factory performance a little, we're after the best street suspension upgrade on the market. Check out the pics to get the thread started and stay tuned as it all unfolds!

https://i.imgur.com/LcHejTp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JOfiVx5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jrgTaKj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rfyXkIH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wlRkQat.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bpgpVtz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vXNdtfW.jpg

[Ben@SpeedTech]

https://i.imgur.com/fmZ9p9l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J0IJvju.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HwNihSv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2nsg1VE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gLOaDdu.jpg

[LS1-IROC]

Nice, can't wait to see more!

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

Ben,
Good luck in your new business.

Blake,
Can we count on you to keep us updated on this project? I'm not to far behind you with my project and I'd love to see this package before I have to move forward with a stock style suspension.


https://s8.postimg.cc/kfvss63up/FB_IMG_1531014489064_1531014516883.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/kfvss63up/)

[Yukon Cornelius]

Very interested.

[Blake Foster]

Ben,
Good luck in your new business.

Blake,
Can we count on you to keep us updated on this project? I'm not to far behind you with my project and I'd love to see this package before I have to move forward with a stock style suspension.


https://s8.postimg.cc/kfvss63up/FB_IMG_1531014489064_1531014516883.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/kfvss63up/)

YES here is an update. all the parts are designed, we have been waiting one one VERY cool new tool to arrive before we move forward on this project that is scheduled to arrive this week, then we can confirm all the fitment and have the parts laser cut and we will begin install in 2 weeks. we have a COMPLETE front center and rear set up. here is a bit of the run down

Front
Extreme "subframe/ K Member "
AFX / Extreme Spindles
Rack and Pinion
Ron Sutton shocks / coil over
Splined sway bar
and a few other surprises
there will be room for a 315!

mid section
will consist of weld in sub frame connectors Although they technically don't connect the sub frame probably floor stiffening kit would be a better name.
this will allow for the adjustable trans mount and torque arm mount and dual exhaust down the tunnel.

Rear suspension
our standard torque arm.
adjustable panhard bar set up with corrected roll center height adjust ability
our Articulink lower trailing arms
adjustable sway bar
Ron Sutton shock / coil over
we will have a mod for the rear wheel well to fit a 315 also. but as someone said above it is TIGHT!!

additional parts we will have
tunnel mod for trans position
headers
ls and LT motor mounts

mid august is the target to have the suspension installed.

:ups:

[HellPhish89]

YES here is an update. all the parts are designed, we have been waiting one one VERY cool new tool to arrive before we move forward on this project that is scheduled to arrive this week, then we can confirm all the fitment and have the parts laser cut and we will begin install in 2 weeks. we have a COMPLETE front center and rear set up. here is a bit of the run down

Front
Extreme "subframe/ K Member "
AFX / Extreme Spindles
Rack and Pinion
Ron Sutton shocks / coil over
Splined sway bar
and a few other surprises
there will be room for a 315!

mid section
will consist of weld in sub frame connectors Although they technically don't connect the sub frame probably floor stiffening kit would be a better name.
this will allow for the adjustable trans mount and torque arm mount and dual exhaust down the tunnel.

Rear suspension
our standard torque arm.
adjustable panhard bar set up with corrected roll center height adjust ability
our Articulink lower trailing arms
adjustable sway bar
Ron Sutton shock / coil over
we will have a mod for the rear wheel well to fit a 315 also. but as someone said above it is TIGHT!!

additional parts we will have
tunnel mod for trans position
headers
ls and LT motor mounts

mid august is the target to have the suspension installed.

:ups:

hmm.. subframe/k-member? If I were to buy this will I have to cut out the existing frame rails?

[Blake Foster]

hmm.. subframe/k-member? If I were to buy this will I have to cut out the existing frame rails?

yes you will have to cut and weld.
the new X member will locate on 2 of the original k member mount holes.
the original front inner wheel well and strut tower remain unchanged.
the floor will need to be cut to install the "frame connector tubes which mount the trans X member and new Torque arm X member
the rear suspension is all bolt in. other than some reinforcement welding on the pan hard mount.

the laser parts are here this week an we will be assembling parts next week!!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Now this is what we have been waiting for.

YES here is an update. all the parts are designed, we have been waiting one one VERY cool new tool to arrive before we move forward on this project that is scheduled to arrive this week, then we can confirm all the fitment and have the parts laser cut and we will begin install in 2 weeks. we have a COMPLETE front center and rear set up. here is a bit of the run down

Front
Extreme "subframe/ K Member "
AFX / Extreme Spindles
Rack and Pinion
Ron Sutton shocks / coil over
Splined sway bar
and a few other surprises
there will be room for a 315!

mid section
will consist of weld in sub frame connectors Although they technically don't connect the sub frame probably floor stiffening kit would be a better name.
this will allow for the adjustable trans mount and torque arm mount and dual exhaust down the tunnel.

Rear suspension
our standard torque arm.
adjustable panhard bar set up with corrected roll center height adjust ability
our Articulink lower trailing arms
adjustable sway bar
Ron Sutton shock / coil over
we will have a mod for the rear wheel well to fit a 315 also. but as someone said above it is TIGHT!!

additional parts we will have
tunnel mod for trans position
headers
ls and LT motor mounts

mid august is the target to have the suspension installed.

:ups:

[HellPhish89]

yes you will have to cut and weld.
the new X member will locate on 2 of the original k member mount holes.
the original front inner wheel well and strut tower remain unchanged.
the floor will need to be cut to install the "frame connector tubes which mount the trans X member and new Torque arm X member
the rear suspension is all bolt in. other than some reinforcement welding on the pan hard mount.

the laser parts are here this week an we will be assembling parts next week!!

I really need to see what you came up with because Im having trouble visualizing.. pics hopefully coming soon?

[Blake Foster]

we will start the install tomorrow i am thinking so stay tuned

[HellPhish89]

any updates?

[Blake Foster]

yes
we are welding the components and have test fit them in the cars again.
we will do the install pics and instructions next week.

we are actually getting caught up and will have time to move this project forward.

[HellPhish89]

[waits patiently] lol

[GregWeld]

I saw it two days ago in the shop..... so I can attest that it's being worked on!!

[HellPhish89]

I have no doubt. Third gen people have waited a long time for something decent so a few weeks more isnt really that much :D

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

yes
we are welding the components and have test fit them in the cars again.
we will do the install pics and instructions next week.

we are actually getting caught up and will have time to move this project forward.

Any updates you can share?

[Blake Foster]

Any updates you can share?

yes we have test fit the front and rear, we are actively looking for another CAD / Engineer as out last one recently moved to another local company so that has stalled the progress, hope to have it all sorted by year end

[HellPhish89]

yes we have test fit the front and rear, we are actively looking for another CAD / Engineer as out last one recently moved to another local company so that has stalled the progress, hope to have it all sorted by year end

How has the engineer search/fitment gone?

Ya know.. you guys could probably save a bunch in materials by fast prototyping with a 3d printer..:D:G-Dub:

[Blake Foster]

How has the engineer search/fitment gone?

Ya know.. you guys could probably save a bunch in materials by fast prototyping with a 3d printer..:D:G-Dub:

at this point not well.

[HellPhish89]

at this point not well.

Thats no good.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

at this point not well.

Looking for an update. I'm about to finish some other projects I've been working on and it will soon be time to pick a direction for my build.

[HellPhish89]

:poke: hopefully things have turned around

[qnitro]

I'm officially in the 3rd gen game with a recent acquisition.. and I love some speedtech parts..

[Che70velle]

I'm officially in the 3rd gen game with a recent acquisition.. and I love some speedtech parts..

Same here. Picking mine up in a week or so.

[Blake Foster]

We will get on it soon. planning on mid June, first proto type is done and fit
We need to modify a few parts and do a full install.
The car will then be for sale as a project we will finish. once ready

[HellPhish89]

We will get on it soon. planning on mid June, first proto type is done and fit
We need to modify a few parts and do a full install.
The car will then be for sale as a project we will finish. once ready

Any updates? :)

[Blake Foster]

All new parts are at laser cutter
installed the rear suspension ant it fit GREAT!!
changed the center frame kit to be more bolt in with less cutting. should be able to install in our test car in a few weeks.
also changed the front so it is easier to install still cutting and welding but much easier to do now.

[HellPhish89]

All new parts are at laser cutter
installed the rear suspension ant it fit GREAT!!
changed the center frame kit to be more bolt in with less cutting. should be able to install in our test car in a few weeks.
also changed the front so it is easier to install still cutting and welding but much easier to do now.

Is the front going to be more of an SLA kit like the Mustangs have access to?

[Blake Foster]

Is the front going to be more of an SLA kit like the Mustangs have access to?

It is the Exact same as all our other Extreme subframes and chassis. complete weld in cross member that replaces the K member and struts are now GONE.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

It is the Exact same as all our other Extreme subframes and chassis. complete weld in cross member that replaces the K member and struts are now GONE.

And the flanges in the wheel well for the top strut mount? Will the kit clean this up in some way or would we be left to figure out the body work?

[HellPhish89]

It is the Exact same as all our other Extreme subframes and chassis. complete weld in cross member that replaces the K member and struts are now GONE.


Thats what I was afraid of. High dollar starting point and labor intensive to the point that most 3rd gen owners will just look past it. Its going to an amazing system but Im very doubtful it will sell well with what I know of the community. Sorry if Ive offended you its just disappointing to me

[ur-n-8]

I can see where it would be difficult to make a state of the art suspension that would bolt in and sell for a couple grand.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Prices have been going up. I remember when I bought the speedtech rear torque arm for $2200 shipped, now its $2900 plus shipping.

[mitch_04]

Give it a few years, 3rd gens will come up in value as people (like me) who wanted them in high school but couldn't afford them start coming into money. I'm not coming into money yet, but I am surely watching this thread and hoping it times out to where I have the money once it becomes available.

Look at square bodies, 5 years ago when I bought mine you hardly ever saw one built to the 9s, now they are everywhere.

[ur-n-8]

Give it a few years, 3rd gens will come up in value as people (like me) who wanted them in high school but couldn't afford them start coming into money. I'm not coming into money yet, but I am surely watching this thread and hoping it times out to where I have the money once it becomes available.

Look at square bodies, 5 years ago when I bought mine you hardly ever saw one built to the 9s, now they are everywhere.

Agreed, until now no one has offered anything modern for the third gen. I don’t know what the cost will be, but if it’s on par with a first gen subframe I don’t know what’s to bitch about. I can’t imagine how much time it took refine and develop it.

[Hugger67RSSS]

This car is waiting to be built this winter and waiting to see my options, could be interesting!

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

This car is waiting to be built this winter and waiting to see my options, could be interesting!

Nice! What are your plans for the car beyond the suspension?

[HellPhish89]

I can see where it would be difficult to make a state of the art suspension that would bolt in and sell for a couple grand.

While SLA's arent state of the art anymore this is based more on what I know of the 3rd gen community.

I have zero doubt the system will be amazing just not something that I see doing well due to its price obviously required price point.

[Hugger67RSSS]

Nice! What are your plans for the car beyond the suspension?

Built LS3/T56 9” rear nothing real crazy. Keep the interior stock appearing with some cage work

[ur-n-8]

While SLA's arent state of the art anymore this is based more on what I know of the 3rd gen community.

I have zero doubt the system will be amazing just not something that I see doing well due to its price obviously required price point.

I guess when I stated 'state of the art' I was referring to Corvette style geometry/componentry as opposed to say Mustang 2, but I have to admit I was unaware of any designs better than SLA.

[Blake Foster]

Thats what I was afraid of. High dollar starting point and labor intensive to the point that most 3rd gen owners will just look past it. Its going to an amazing system but Im very doubtful it will sell well with what I know of the community. Sorry if Ive offended you its just disappointing to me

I AM TOTALLY OFFENDED!!! lol JK
So here is the deal. We have an amazing front suspension, and torque arm system. We could have (and still probably will) just made lower control arms and caster/camber plates and called it done! But then what sets us apart from EVERY other system? The car will get more popular, it already is.

The price for the complete kit will be about the same as a full chassis for any other application it just is what it is. We probably will not sell 50 a year I am sure of that, but it is another product that people are asking about. Did we go over board? Probably but I am confidant it will be the BEST system you will be able to buy for this model.

Install will not be that bad we have designed it to be pretty straight forward although you will need to do some cutting and welding (welcome to car building 101) on the front, the mid frame requires some trimming of the factory frame rails to allow for true dual exhaust. other than that it is bolt in and weld to finish it off. there are front roll cage mounts built in as well. the Torque arm is all bolt in with coil overs and an adjustable panhard for roll center adjustment.

No mini tubbing so that saves a tone of time and money to off set the cost. I bet that it will actually be easier and faster to install than a mini tub and that does not seem to scare anyone away. 315 tires square.

[Blake Foster]

And the flanges in the wheel well for the top strut mount? Will the kit clean this up in some way or would we be left to figure out the body work?

At this point we are thinking of including some sheetmetal cover plates to cover over the strut mount. but it will remain in place as it is a structural component of the body.

[Che70velle]

Indeed Blake, these cars are gaining popularity big time. Prices are going up almost daily, and low mileage survivors are bringing big dollars at auction, especially IROC’s. I think your timing on bringing these parts to market is great and I’d expect to see you guys selling Gen3 camaro parts by the truckload next summer. These cars are gonna be the next big thing.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

The price for the complete kit will be about the same as a full chassis for any other application it just is what it is.

I have to say I'm very disappointed. My hope was this would be closer to the cost of your G-Body kits than an F-Body kit. I waited quite a while for this news and I simply can't justify the cost for this platform.

[Blake Foster]

I have to say I'm very disappointed. My hope was this would be closer to the cost of your G-Body kits than an F-Body kit. I waited quite a while for this news and I simply can't justify the cost for this platform.

That is unfortunate but what were you expecting? this is a not comparable to ANYthing on the market that I know of,
RS chassis is 21,000 for all comparable parts and you need to replace the entire floor!
DSE is over 9000 and is control arms and struts up front
I think ours will end up at 13,999.00 and this will be with a new 9" and probably JRI double adjustable shocks.

I suppose it won't be for everyone, we will probably do control arms and struts in the future as well to cover off that market segment as well.

[Blake Foster]

Just finalizing pricing
With Ridetech single adjustable (custom Valved)
Front Subframe
Mid sub frame connector kit
Rear torque arm

10,999.00

Rear end extra 3199.00 9" 31 spline Tru Track Nodular 3rd member

This will allow true dual exhaust (our headers will be required)

Here is the deal tell us you read it here first we will take 1000.00 off the total price on orders placed and paid for by the end of September

[Hugger67RSSS]

Just finalizing pricing
With Ridetech single adjustable (custom Valved)
Front Subframe
Mid sub frame connector kit
Rear torque arm

10,999.00

Rear end extra 3199.00 9" 31 spline Tru Track Nodular 3rd member

This will allow true dual exhaust (our headers will be required)

Here is the deal tell us you read it here first we will take 1000.00 off the total price on orders placed and paid for by the end of September


Just curious... What will pricing be for just the front subframe? When will pics be available?

[Blake Foster]

Just curious... What will pricing be for just the front subframe? When will pics be available?

Front sub will be 7159.00
but you will also need the sub frame connector part as well because it incorporates the trans mount. the factory torque arm should still mount to the trans as it does now.
will have pics this week

[chetly]

what if your running a t-56 and not factory T-5 trans? Can you get the rear end housing with camber and toe?

[Blake Foster]

what if your running a t-56 and not factory T-5 trans? Can you get the rear end housing with camber and toe?

It is all designed around a T56 but the trans X member is adjustable so pretty much any trans will fit (T56 needs the tunnel modified a bit) the factory Torque arm would likely not work with a T56 as it is so different

I can have speedway to build the housing it would need to be a floater though. which is totally possible. you would need to provide the specs you are looking for.

[HellPhish89]

That is unfortunate but what were you expecting? this is a not comparable to ANYthing on the market that I know of,
RS chassis is 21,000 for all comparable parts and you need to replace the entire floor!
DSE is over 9000 and is control arms and struts up front
I think ours will end up at 13,999.00 and this will be with a new 9" and probably JRI double adjustable shocks.

I suppose it won't be for everyone, we will probably do control arms and struts in the future as well to cover off that market segment as well.

Something more in line with the 3rd Gen community. Not blaming you, just frustrated because this still means no real options for most of us.

What I was expecting/hoping for was an SLA kit integrated into the strut tower area that worked with a stock/stock style K-member. In my mind it would use either the extreme uprights or stock vette uprights with a more common damper.

Kit for the older mustangs (yes, i know its a penske damper):
http://www.passportsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/harbinger_suspension.jpg

[Blake Foster]

Something more in line with the 3rd Gen community. Not blaming you, just frustrated because this still means no real options for most of us.

What I was expecting/hoping for was an SLA kit integrated into the strut tower area that worked with a stock/stock style K-member. In my mind it would use either the extreme uprights or stock vette uprights with a more common damper.

Kit for the older mustangs (yes, i know its a penske damper):
http://www.passportsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/harbinger_suspension.jpg

Sorry. That set up would just not work with the current geometry. and since it works so well why change it. that is why it is more like the DSE /Roadster shop Mustang kit and not the one you reference.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

...We could have (and still probably will) just made lower control arms and caster/camber plates and called it done! But then what sets us apart from EVERY other system? ….


Here's how I think you could differentiate yourself from that market segment:

Viking Crusader struts w/ stock location springs (allows for 275 front tire or 315 if you get the offset perfect) and rear coil overs valved for autox. Currently the choices are Koni, custom AFCO or JRI. You could slot in the middle, be affordable and valved to your recommended spring rate

Front springs, weight jacks and Camber plates

Drop spindle w/ ackerman correction that bolts on OEM 4th gen Camaro OR Willwood SLC56 calipers

A splined front sway bar and then recommend (or even offer) a matched rear bar

Your current torque arm and bolt-in adjustable cross member

You could package up the front for ~$3,000 or $4,250 w/ K-Member/A-Arms (if you even care to compete in that space) If it were me, I'd offer A-Arms for the stock K-Member so you wouldn't send a customer to another vendor and because the A-Arms are easy to design. So call it $3,500 for the front w/ A-Arms

The rear should be priced like your other torque arm packages @ ~$2,500

That would sell like HOTCAKES!

The price point would be:

More expensive than Konis package but w/ superior shocks

About the same as an AFCO package but solving the anti-ackerman issue

Far less than a JRI package

[Blake Foster]

Here's how I think you could differentiate yourself from that market segment:

Viking Crusader struts w/ stock location springs (allows for 275 front tire or 315 if you get the offset perfect) and rear coil overs valved for autox. Currently the choices are Koni, custom AFCO or JRI. You could slot in the middle, be affordable and valved to your recommended spring rate

Front springs, weight jacks and Camber plates

Drop spindle w/ ackerman correction that bolts on OEM 4th gen Camaro OR Willwood SLC56 calipers

A splined front sway bar and then recommend (or even offer) a matched rear bar

Your current torque arm and bolt-in adjustable cross member

You could package up the front for ~$3,000 or $4,250 w/ K-Member/A-Arms (if you even care to compete in that space) If it were me, I'd offer A-Arms for the stock K-Member so you wouldn't send a customer to another vendor and because the A-Arms are easy to design. So call it $3,500 for the front w/ A-Arms

The rear should be priced like your other torque arm packages @ ~$2,500

That would sell like HOTCAKES!

The price point would be:

More expensive than Konis package but w/ superior shocks

About the same as an AFCO package but solving the anti-ackerman issue

Far less than a JRI package

we will probably go down that road as well. but wanted to start with the high end product like our other Extreme line up. we have 5 other cars to do as well c2 c3 Corvette Square body C10 as a couple examples. and yes bolt on stuff for all of them as well.

[CamaroAJ]

Consumer: Hey, we want 3rd gen Camaro stuff because the currant available upgrades are just ok.

Company: Here is what we have, it costs this much and is the best performing design currently out right now.

Consumer: Wow, yeah never mind I just want modified parts that are already available because its cheaper. Why couldn't you just do this instead?

[Hugger67RSSS]

Consumer: Hey, we want 3rd gen Camaro stuff because the currant available upgrades are just ok.

Company: Here is what we have, it costs this much and is the best performing design currently out right now.

Consumer: Wow, yeah never mind I just want modified parts that are already available because its cheaper. Why couldn't you just do this instead?

Yep, that’s not my stance though. Not sure how far I want to go until I see pics and fab time involved but it will be a better option than others. I’m sure you need a test car that is not shop owned right Blake?!

[Blake Foster]

Consumer: Hey, we want 3rd gen Camaro stuff because the currant available upgrades are just ok.

Company: Here is what we have, it costs this much and is the best performing design currently out right now.

Consumer: Wow, yeah never mind I just want modified parts that are already available because its cheaper. Why couldn't you just do this instead?

LOL i will take that as humor !! it would have been EASY to do caster/camber plates and LCA's

[Blake Foster]

Yep, that’s not my stance though. Not sure how far I want to go until I see pics and fab time involved but it will be a better option than others. I’m sure you need a test car that is not shop owned right Blake?!

yes non shop owned test cars are always GREAT!!

going to try and post god pics today!! weekend PORN!!

[Blake Foster]

https://imgur.com/JlVQRQu

https://imgur.com/9X53EMG

https://imgur.com/AzGZxSN



This shows the center section "Subframe Connector" part the front pads were designed as a roll bar mounting point as well with top and bottom plates that can bolt or weld in.

A little more involved that LCA's and camber plates hence the cost, but much less work then replacing the entire floor since it all contours to the bottom side and rockers.

Enjoy ill be back in the office Monday to take CC#'s

[Flash68]

Consumer: Hey, we want 3rd gen Camaro stuff because the currant available upgrades are just ok.

Company: Here is what we have, it costs this much and is the best performing design currently out right now.

Consumer: Wow, yeah never mind I just want modified parts that are already available because its cheaper. Why couldn't you just do this instead?

LOL... nailed it.

[HellPhish89]

Consumer: Hey, we want 3rd gen Camaro stuff because the currant available upgrades are just ok.

Company: Here is what we have, it costs this much and is the best performing design currently out right now.

Consumer: Wow, yeah never mind I just want modified parts that are already available because its cheaper. Why couldn't you just do this instead?

From the start I've pointed out what was wanted. Even referencing the SLA kits that exist. Dont start blaming the potential customers for someone elses design decisions.

[CamaroAJ]

From the start I've pointed out what was wanted. Even referencing the SLA kits that exist. Dont start blaming the potential customers for someone elses design decisions.

My comment wasn’t directed at anyone. It was a general statement that can be applied to almost anything in the aftermarket automotive world. Remember when everyone wanted carbon fiber first gen stuff and when a company built exactly that everyone complained that it was to expensive?

[chetly]

From the start I've pointed out what was wanted. Even referencing the SLA kits that exist. Dont start blaming the potential customers for someone elses design decisions.

Well Blake already answered why your idea wasn't used. Why build a kit like everyone else or copy someone elses design when they can use their design that follows their philosophy and expected performance levels?

[HellPhish89]

Well Blake already answered why your idea wasn't used. Why build a kit like everyone else or copy someone elses design when they can use their design that follows their philosophy and expected performance levels?

Copy? No. But even the more enthusiastic 3rd gen owners arent exactly thinking of installing a suspension that is that expensive or involved.

Theres actually little available for the front suspension on these cars. Even brake kits are mostly from very small companies that modify existing spindles. Spring wise though is an ironic bright spot as Moog makes a ton of different rate OEM replacement springs.

Comes down to frustration that many of us have wanted something that is reasonably priced and is a reasonable amount of work for a reasonable improvement.

The few people that eventually will by this setup will not be disappointed but for the rest of us its back to the drawing board.

[Che70velle]

Copy? No. But even the more enthusiastic 3rd gen owners arent exactly thinking of installing a suspension that is that expensive or involved.

Theres actually little available for the front suspension on these cars. Even brake kits are mostly from very small companies that modify existing spindles. Spring wise though is an ironic bright spot as Moog makes a ton of different rate OEM replacement springs.

Comes down to frustration that many of us have wanted something that is reasonably priced and is a reasonable amount of work for a reasonable improvement.

The few people that eventually will by this setup will not be disappointed but for the rest of us its back to the drawing board.

Ok, so you’ve already said to us all here that your disapointed and not going to spend the money for this setup, so sit back, be patient, and wait for Blake’s more economical setup to come around. Just remember that performance, be it engine, transmission, wheels, or suspension is ALWAYS rated in dollar signs.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

... so sit back, be patient, and wait for Blake’s more economical setup to come around. Just remember that performance, be it engine, transmission, wheels, or suspension is ALWAYS rated in dollar signs.

I think the disappointment comes from the expectation Blake himself setup in Post #1 of this very thread along with his comments that they never did figure out "Step one":

"Step one is to develop a bolt in performance suspension system including lower front control arms, a better and adjustable front strut, Articulink rear trailing arms, rear coilover conversion, and upgrade it to our better Torque Arm. We're not reinventing the wheel here, just making it much better. Some of these parts are currently already in pre production.

Step 2 is to develop an LS/T56 swap kit. Our RS sports a V6 with a blown head gasket, so naturally it will likely get a 525+ hp LS3 crate engine backed by a T56 Magnum to take it's place.

Step 3 is the real good stuff! For those that want to play with the big boys we'll be developing a new ExtReme front suspension clip

They went to "Step 3" first. I think I understand why they did. Pieces of "Step 1" are available and the average guy may not see the difference between what is currently available and a quality solution to the platform's issues. However, "Step 3" (while far and away better than any current package) is the complete other end of the cost spectrum from "Step one" for a car that can't justify the expense. Furthermore, they set the expectation for a first offering that was in the middle of the cost range.

I think the 3rd Gen community was hoping for "Step one" and a offering that aligned with the expectation they themselves set: "We're not reinventing the wheel here, just making it much better" as stated in Post #1 of this very thread.


"Much better" involves a solving the inherent geometry issues of the platform without breaking the bank, which to me, means:

1. High quality shocks that cost at least slightly less than the entire f*'ing car (just saying @DSE)

2. Solving the massive scrub radius, anti-ackerman, front roll center and antiquated steering box issues by simply offering a quality spindle. That alone would be a HUGE money maker for them.

3. Offering the torque arm solution they already have available for other platforms. (This was the only one they offer with this announcement)


Again, I understand offering the Extreme far end of the cost scale first so that the first cars that go out into the wild kick ass, but it is EXTREME. I REALLY do wish I could find even the slightest reason in my mind to justify the expenditure, I cant.

[ur-n-8]

Building a spindle to correct the anti ackerman may seem easy, but would cause many other problems. First to get pro ackerman the spindle steering arm would have to be in the barrel of the wheel. Which 1 will cause the steering arm to be very short and 2 will cause the outer tie rod end to be higher than the original. So maybe you can get a drag link that has higher inner tie rod mounting points and correct the bump steer, but ultimately the short spindle arms will make the steering very fast and the box will no longer hit the internal stops.

[Blake Foster]

I think the disappointment comes from the expectation Blake himself setup in Post #1 of this very thread along with his comments that they never did figure out "Step one":



They went to "Step 3" first. I think I understand why they did. Pieces of "Step 1" are available and the average guy may not see the difference between what is currently available and a quality solution to the platform's issues. However, "Step 3" (while far and away better than any current package) is the complete other end of the cost spectrum from "Step one" for a car that can't justify the expense. Furthermore, they set the expectation for a first offering that was in the middle of the cost range.

I think the 3rd Gen community was hoping for "Step one" and a offering that aligned with the expectation they themselves set: as stated in Post #1 of this very thread.


"Much better" involves a solving the inherent geometry issues of the platform without breaking the bank, which to me, means:

1. High quality shocks that cost at least slightly less than the entire f*'ing car (just saying @DSE)

2. Solving the massive scrub radius, anti-ackerman, front roll center and antiquated steering box issues by simply offering a quality spindle. That alone would be a HUGE money maker for them.

3. Offering the torque arm solution they already have available for other platforms. (This was the only one they offer with this announcement)


Again, I understand offering the Extreme far end of the cost scale first so that the first cars that go out into the wild kick ass, but it is EXTREME. I REALLY do wish I could find even the slightest reason in my mind to justify the expenditure, I cant.


Time changes ideas and goals changed as we went through the process. The idea of trying to IMPROVE anything that is on the market now with simple bolt on's was just not going to happen, how do you improve the geometry? with a strut? you can move the Lower ball joint forward and out slightly. The scrub again, pretty difficult to make any improvement there when the strut dictates the wheel fitment. We actually looked at using the our Forged spindle with the strut to make some gains but there is just not enough material to safely mount the strut to. Upper caster / camber plates what do you do there, make a fancy little gear to adjust it with, you can only do so much with the factory locations. We did improve the torque arm and added coil overs to the rear. BUT due to the factory set up we had to come up with some way to mount the front of the torque arm. Well we did BUT you need to use both components. The front is a radical departure from what anyone has done. We are confidant there is enough VALUE in the package that it will catch on, But who knows. We will see. To just do what everyone else has done made no practical sense. then it is just becomes
"Well i can get so and so's for this much "

Compare our offering to the other main players in the market.
Let me know if there is any additional Value in our package
Here is how ours breaks down
Front "SUBFRAME" Same components and geometry as the Extreme subframe for a first or second gen 6999.00 yes it needs to weld in but it will be easier than mini tubs!!!

Mid Frame connector kit. includes trans mount and torque arm mount as well as front roll cage mounts and room for long tube headers (yes you need to buy our headers as well Sorry) and dual exhaust.
999.00 you could actually use this all on its own. if a guy was doing it in stages this would be the first part to install.

Torque arm fully bolt in (there is some trimming) and you will need a 9" as all the brackets are designed for the 3" tube also the torque arm mounting billet parts. (again if the 7.5" diff was worth using we may have built parts to mount it) but it is again not worth spending any money on IMO 2999.00

I will apologize if you think I need to, for building a product that ended up to be MUCH more that some of you expected.
I didn't read any post like this when DSE came out with the Mustang program, that was ALL GOOD, not sure I understand what the difference is? You think the same thing will happen when we do Mustang parts??lol
I will make sure to NOT say it will start with bolt in parts !!

[ironworks]

People have no clue how much work it takes to develop parts and test em and figure out a way to build them efficiently and then sell em at some kind of a profit.

There is an ass for every seat and a girl for every guy. Every price point serves a market. McDonalds sells a burger just like Tahoe Joes. They all serve demographic. The guys at McDonalds will complain its to expensive at Tahoe joes and he guys at Tahoe Joes will complain the McDonalds food will kill you in 30 days.

I'm sure the product will work great and serve the market your after. I'm sure there are plenty of people who will spend way more then they should on a car. I work with those guys daily.

Only the people who can't afford it or don't to afford it complain that something is too nice. I broke up with a girl once who was too pretty and had too much money. I wanted something more normal.

[Matt@BOS]

I broke up with a girl once who was too pretty and had too much money. I wanted something more normal.

:lol: This logic might explain why you opened up a shop.

Blake, and Speedtech crew, - I'm excited to see these parts hit the market! I'm sure there will be buyers who understand the value. Anyone who has built a car before understands its better to spend more the first time than to buy mediocre parts and upgrade again as soon as one's skills or desires to go faster "outgrow" the mediocre stuff.

Matt

[67droptop]

So I priced DSE front suspension, rear suspension and subframe connecters. With the single adjustable JRI it was $8500. Then a Turn one 12-1 steering box is $1400. So in the end its close to the same price. Will the SLA be better? Hard to argue with the DSE-Z performance but its also Kyle Tucker driving and $6000 in shocks...
If you cant fab then neither is going to be cheap

[Build-It-Break-it]

You'll also need a set of custom headers. That's another $1600 for the ones Speedtech has for their extreme subframe. Not sure how much the DSE ones are.

Oh and possibly steering column. I know at least for the 68 camaro with the extreme subframe the steering column most people have won't work . Blake might want step in the that if that'll be an added cost for people to.

[Blake Foster]

You'll also need a set of custom headers. That's another $1600 for the ones Speedtech has for their extreme subframe. Not sure how much the DSE ones are.

Oh and possibly steering column. I know at least for the 68 camaro with the extreme subframe the steering column most people have won't work . Blake might want step in the that if that'll be an added cost for people to.

Headers are 1499.00 sorry 321 stainless and they fit, what are you going to do.
steering column will not need to be changed just shorten the stick out. that column is to integral to the wiring and stuff to just change it.

[Blake Foster]

So I priced DSE front suspension, rear suspension and subframe connecters. With the single adjustable JRI it was $8500. Then a Turn one 12-1 steering box is $1400. So in the end its close to the same price. Will the SLA be better? Hard to argue with the DSE-Z performance but its also Kyle Tucker driving and $6000 in shocks...
If you cant fab then neither is going to be cheap

THAT is called Homework right there ^^^^^^ we did ours also.
the SLA HAS to be better, but i doubt Kyle will tell you that. LOL we are working with JRI right now to have the single adjustable the standard offering in all the Extreme systems also.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Headers are 1499.00 sorry 321 stainless and they fit, what are you going to do.
steering column will not need to be changed just shorten the stick out. that column is to integral to the wiring and stuff to just change it.

Not knocking you or your product Blake. I have one of your extreme subrames and I'll also be needing the $1499 headers or I'll figure out another route using hacked up $200 ebay headers who knows.

Just putting it out there so the 3rd gen owners will know about the additional costs.

The steering column is something I wasn't aware of when I bought my subframe from you for my 68 camaro because it wasn't stated on your website at the time. No biggie for me, I just shortened my column to fit. Again just bringing that up if it was an additional cost for 3rd gen owners.

[chetly]

Any idea if the exhaust manifolds and cats that come with the E-ROD motor will work with your subframe? Living in CA, long tube headers are a no go unless I want to spend $500 every 2 years to get my car "smogged".

[Blake Foster]

Any idea if the exhaust manifolds and cats that come with the E-ROD motor will work with your subframe? Living in CA, long tube headers are a no go unless I want to spend $500 every 2 years to get my car "smogged".

No idea, looking at the picture in the GM catalog if they look like the LT4 header then maybe but not the lt1 or ls3 or lsa as pictured any way

[mitch_04]

So.... pics?!?!?!

[Blake Foster]

Pre production install pics final parts are arriving Monday from the laser cutter

https://i.imgur.com/38a3J7A.jpg
Rear panhard mount with 5" of roll center adjustment.

https://i.imgur.com/hazZmyJ.jpg

Retains stock fuel tank but adds a stronger pan hard support ans adjustment on chassis side

https://i.imgur.com/4OyqG05.jpg

Shows rough cut out for the factory frame rail, the new design will make install and cutting very easy

https://i.imgur.com/ZMS8wgW.jpg

Looking from the engine bay.

[mitch_04]

Beautiful...I hope I can afford it once I'm ready for it! Anyone know how much kids are selling for these days... I'll give you a deal if you purchase all 3!!!

[67droptop]

Pre production install pics final parts are arriving Monday from the laser cutter

https://i.imgur.com/38a3J7A.jpg
Rear panhard mount with 5" of roll center adjustment.

https://i.imgur.com/hazZmyJ.jpg

Retains stock fuel tank but adds a stronger pan hard support ans adjustment on chassis side

https://i.imgur.com/4OyqG05.jpg

Shows rough cut out for the factory frame rail, the new design will make install and cutting very easy

https://i.imgur.com/ZMS8wgW.jpg

Looking from the engine bay.

I dont see any rear sway bar mounts?

[Build-It-Break-it]

I dont see any rear sway bar mounts?

They don't include a rear sway bar with their torque arm suspension. It's a $500 upgrade.

[67droptop]

This upgrade is $14k then plus $3199 for the rear end. They might price them self out of the third gen market.

[Blake Foster]

This upgrade is $14k then plus $3199 for the rear end. They might price them self out of the third gen market.

NO 13999.00 with a rear end but no 3rd member

the housing will have Sway bar mounts on it.
and at this point we thing a Factory sway bar will work waiting on one to arrive to test fit

[67droptop]

Any updates?

[Blake Foster]

final Laser parts have showed up (they had a huge job that has slowed down delivery) we will weld up and start final install next week.

[alan91z28]

Blake,

I have a Moser 9" in one of my third gens that i am in the process of needing to rebuild this winter as i blew a piston on my boosted LS3 this summer. Focus will be on the engine / t-56 trans but would like to improve the torque arm arrangement i have in this camaro, which is currently a jegster type short tunnel mount

Would like to know if you will be just selling a torque arm and mounting arrangement i can mount to my existing 9" and then install appropriate front cross member??

i am very interested in your thread and 3rd gen suspension product development. your total set-up i am thinking about for a future 3rd gen project i have in mind.

[Blake Foster]

Blake,

I have a Moser 9" in one of my third gens that i am in the process of needing to rebuild this winter as i blew a piston on my boosted LS3 this summer. Focus will be on the engine / t-56 trans but would like to improve the torque arm arrangement i have in this camaro, which is currently a jegster type short tunnel mount

Would like to know if you will be just selling a torque arm and mounting arrangement i can mount to my existing 9" and then install appropriate front cross member??

i am very interested in your thread and 3rd gen suspension product development. your total set-up i am thinking about for a future 3rd gen project i have in mind.

Yes I feel we have designed the 3 individual sub systems to work to work not individually but the front subframe will work with the mid section (since the factory torque arm mounts to the transmission ) OR you can do the mid section with the rear suspension which then included a different torque arm and front mount as well as a universal trans mount. i also think if you wanted the "Subframe" connector / mid section only as a frame stiffener it would also work by itself. but it is the one constant.

So if a guy was wanting to do it in stages it would be Mid section FIRST then either front or rear.

As for your Moser 9 you would have to cut off all the mounts and replace with our mounts.

[67droptop]

I have a 9" Ford I'm building, just need to decide on who's full floater ends. So if I am reading your post right, You can install the mid and rear kits and leave the stock front end? And you will have the brackets to mount the torque arm?

Have you taken a measurement of how low the torque hangs off the axle to ground clearance yet?

[Blake Foster]

That is what we are planning
the torque arm is 2.25" below the bottom of a 9" housing. it posses no problems with clearance if that is what you were wondering

[67droptop]

Thanks for update, I can't wait to see the install pictures and then it out on a track performing.

[67droptop]

Any updates?

[Creeperlord]

I assume you're looking into converting to rack and pinion steering as well?

[67droptop]

The front suspension kit uses a Sweet Power Steering rack.

[67droptop]

No updates for months, guess this project stalled? Back to UMI or DSE then for me.

[Blake Foster]

sorry for the slow response

We have redesigned a couple components to improve the "subframe connector" portion of the kit and the install. those parts arrived from Laser today.
the rear is all done and looks really good and easy to install. the front is done and is fully installed.
we will get to the install of the center part in the next week and then can have pics to go along with it.

[syborg tt]

sorry for the slow response

We have redesigned a couple components to improve the "subframe connector" portion of the kit and the install. those parts arrived from Laser today.
the rear is all done and looks really good and easy to install. the front is done and is fully installed.
we will get to the install of the center part in the next week and then can have pics to go along with it.

I can't wait as I plan to build a 3rd gen one day.

[67droptop]

sorry for the slow response

We have redesigned a couple components to improve the "subframe connector" portion of the kit and the install. those parts arrived from Laser today.
the rear is all done and looks really good and easy to install. the front is done and is fully installed.
we will get to the install of the center part in the next week and then can have pics to go along with it.

Really looking forward to the installed pictures!

[67droptop]

sorry for the slow response

We have redesigned a couple components to improve the "subframe connector" portion of the kit and the install. those parts arrived from Laser today.
the rear is all done and looks really good and easy to install. the front is done and is fully installed.
we will get to the install of the center part in the next week and then can have pics to go along with it.

Happy 2020! Hopefully we will get to see some installed pictures.

[Hugger67RSSS]

Happy 2020! Hopefully we will get to see some installed pictures.

Want some top secret photos? I have a couple

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

Want some top secret photos? I have a couple

So it's pretty much a bolt-in. :bigun2:

[67droptop]

Want some top secret photos? I have a couple


I think if this ever makes it to market its going to be killer. I like the fact of the SLA and being able to run different coilovers. But I would lose the factory inner structure.

[67droptop]

dead project?

[Rocket71]

Any update?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[mitch_04]

I'm happy with the pace. They are perfectly in sync with the rate I work on my own car! :lol:

[Blake Foster]

OMG small update.
Car is ready to assemble the suspension into for the last time. waiting on the rear end to arrive from Dutchman. and a rear sway bar

Bottom of the car is coated and the suspension painted , this really has been a long slow process with all the other things going on, sorry to keep dragging it out.
But it is still moving along

[67droptop]

Pictures! Pictures!!!

[sls1025]

Hello Blake, any updates on the 3rd gen F-body suspension?
Thank you

[Blake Foster]

yes
Sorry for the slow responses i have just not been on here as much as in the past
First protptype car is at Smitty's Custom Auto having the remainder of work done to finish the car, he purchased it from us to race. Chris was hoping to have it at LS Fest in a couple weeks but don't think it will make it.
parts are ready to start production and delivery could be i as soon as 4 weeks from ordering. the only part that is remaining is headers and those were test fit and modified a month ago and are at Ultimate Headers for final adjustment of the jig.

[Blake Foster]

Pictures! Pictures!!!

will work on that

[Blake Foster]

Here you go

https://i.imgur.com/aKqBtlw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/C6WGV2u.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0inVkvz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DSTdcDa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Fh4nt4x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CItX0Hq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AndJcgS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/j3LP5kT.jpg

[alan91z28]

wow that is looking great, can wait to see it complete

[WSSix]

Fantastic! Glad to see this is still moving forward.

[qnitro]

Im gonna bring this back up, Im really leaning on getting this front clip for a Project Im starting in April/May timeline.. If I see this correctly, the old shock mounts can be smoothed and covered to look more like a traditional inner fender. My only thing is Id run a DSE rear, as the torque arm on this 3rd gen is a pain for routing exhaust.. I got my dream Iroc after looking for no lie 20 years(long story)

[dhutton]

Im gonna bring this back up, Im really leaning on getting this front clip for a Project Im starting in April/May timeline.. If I see this correctly, the old shock mounts can be smoothed and covered to look more like a traditional inner fender. My only thing is Id run a DSE rear, as the torque arm on this 3rd gen is a pain for routing exhaust.. I got my dream Iroc after looking for no lie 20 years(long story)
Nice third gen Kevin!

Don

[garage_engineer]

Im gonna bring this back up, Im really leaning on getting this front clip for a Project Im starting in April/May timeline.. If I see this correctly, the old shock mounts can be smoothed and covered to look more like a traditional inner fender. My only thing is Id run a DSE rear, as the torque arm on this 3rd gen is a pain for routing exhaust.. I got my dream Iroc after looking for no lie 20 years(long story)

Make sure to make a build thread! I'll be following along. Looks like a great starting point.