1969 Camaro Project questions

[rebelceb]

Hey there! I am new around here, and in the process if trying to lay the ground work and know what to expect on going pro-touring with my 69 Camaro. Hopefully this is the correct forum to post these questions.

I have researched a ton, gotten together a parts list, and talked with a couple of shops. I have pretty well settled on one as they have been extremely responsive and easy to deal with when asking questions, etc.

The only problem I am running into is on the quote they gave an estimated number of labor hours that seems extremely high. I just cannot for the life of me figure out where the number of hours is coming from. I know good work takes time, but this seems insane.

So, before I say what they estimated (based on another build they say they did that ended up similarly, except it was a convertible and mine is a coupe) I am curious what everyone here thinks.

So as far as the build goes, the car is already painted, body and car is in excellent shape so none of that will need to be done. Photos have been sent to the builder and this is confirmed to be satisfactory to him. Basically what I am wanting done is as follows, which is all fairly standard for a top notch PT build:

LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc)
DSE front subframe
DSE body mounts
DSE Mini tub
DSE QUADRAlink
DSE anti-roll bar
DSE subframe connectors
DSE 9"
DSE gas tank
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges
DSE wiper motor
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted
Vintage Air
DSE Roll cage
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster
Baer 6P brakes front and rear
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Ididit column
Stainless exhaust

I know the parts are going to be expensive, but the labor range quoted is almost as much/more than the parts cost. I have talked to DSE themselves, but their labor rate/hr is much higher and they couldn't take the car for almost a year anyway. This shop is just as reputable, much lower labor rate, and can take the car the end of May.

I'm not looking to be talked into Ridetech or Speedtech or any other components as at this point I am pretty set and have a game plan.

I am attaching a good picture of the car as it sits now for reference. Thank you all for your time and help! Looking forward to seeing what you think!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/rebelceb/5G6A0830_zpsvibkg4xs.jpg

[cjsgarage]

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

[ironworks]

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

You can do all that work in just about 4 weeks, working 40 hours per week? Let me know when you can start and I will send you as many cars as you can handle.

It takes way more time then you think. Its pretty common to see the labor equal the parts total in most any project. The custom top notch cars begin to increase the labor total from there. The 50-50 split with labor and parts is pretty entry level.

[Musclerodz]

You can do all work in just about 4 weeks, working 40 hours per week? Let me know when you can start and I will send you as many cars as you can handle.

It takes way more time then you think. Its pretty common to see the labor equal the parts total in most any project. The custom top notch cars begin to increase the labor total from there. The 50-50 split with labor and parts is pretty entry level.

I was just about to say the same thing, but adding that only applies to larger projects, not just installing a set of mini-tubs before we get a stupid comment and someone wants a set of tubs installed for $400.

[GregWeld]

Building cars - or highly modifying them - and trying to get a firm bid is a rats nest of what if's - as long as we're here's - and Wow! I didn't know they just painted over rust.

I don't care who bids the job - or how close you think you're going to stick to your plan - it won't happen. Plan on that - and you'll have a good plan.

The fact that your car is painted - ADDS to the cost, not subtracts. Now everything has to be protected - and work slows to be considerate of the paint and bodywork.

NEVER confuse labor rate - and time. This is a fools way to go about a project. It's about efficiency. A guy that charges $45 an hour - but takes 3 hours to do a one hour job is more expensive than the guy that charges $105 an hour and does the job in one hour.

A shop that does the car you have - over and over - and knows where to source all the parts - knows how to anticipate the work - has done it a zillion times - CAN BE more efficient. I say "can be" because it depends on whether they pass along the savings.

And then there's the owner.... Who, once he sees other cars with bigger tires and other "stuff".... decides to change this or that and thinks it's SIMPLE and No Biggie. HA! Good luck with that.

Can you write a $100,000 check the day you drop the car off at the shop? If not - don't start.

[ironworks]

I was just about to say the same thing, but adding that only applies to larger projects, not just installing a set of mini-tubs before we get a stupid comment and someone wants a set of tubs installed for $400.


I'm saying the project as a whole. It really starts at some where around a 50/50 split and goes up from there.

[GregWeld]

I just noticed that you plan to install an "Idiot Column"..... PERFECT! LOL


Okay - being totally serious here. You've got all manor of good parts and an exceptional motor choice. You're parts list and list of work is well short on many items that WILL add costs - and shouldn't be underestimated. For instance - there's no mention of the new rear end that will be required. Either your 12 bolt will need narrowing - or you'll be buying the standard new Ford 9" - narrowed.

People ALWAYS underestimate the amount of little things... Such as - once you pull the fenders and front end off the car - and really take a look at just how FUGLY the firewall is on these cars... you'll want to smooth that (already in your bid). Then once that's smoothed - the inner fenders look FUGLY - so you'll have those smoothed and painted (not mentioned). Then the hinges are crap - so you'll need Ring Brothers... And when you change out the tranny for a more modern version (such as your already listed T56) - you'll find your console doesn't work anymore...

Now - you'll also get up under the dash and (maybe) find that you have 47 year old wiring... and you're trying to find a home for a couple ECU's and their associated relays etc.... so plan to do a full wiring upgrade. Not to mention the addition of your Vintage Air.... that means the entire dash is already out of the car - so might as well clean everything up. And you'll also find that your "AstoVents" don't seal outside air anymore - so those have to be fixed - or better yet, eliminated.

Do you want your "Stainless exhaust" TIG welded or just butchered with a MIG machine? Do you want them to go up over the axle? Clear that old gas tank? Nope - you need a new gas tank with the proper pumps and billet vents...

I'm not trying to be negative here at all.... I'm being REALISTIC. You're already complaining about the proposed bid. That tells me you're not educated on what you're getting in to. I'm just trying to give you a realistic "heads up".

[Vega$69]

Here you go based on doing several 69s PT cars.. Having the car painted already will add additional time. Hours included removing the original parts. These estimated hours may or not be what a shop charges and depends on how many guys they have working on your car.


LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc) 24 hours
DSE front subframe 12 hours
DSE body mounts 2 hours
DSE Mini tub 40 hours
DSE QUADRAlink 40 hours
DSE anti-roll bar 2 hour
DSE subframe connectors inc in quadralink
DSE 9" 8 hours
DSE gas tank 2 hours
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges 8 hours with wiring
DSE wiper motor 2 hours
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted 10-12 hours
Vintage Air 12 hours
DSE Roll cage 24 hours
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster2 hours
Baer 6P brakes front and rear8 hours
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Idiot column 2 hours but I would use a GM Tilt instead
Stainless exhaust $2000

Ok that comes to 135 hours not including all the little stuff in between like running brake lines, fuel lines, put the car back together like the front clip, grill bumpers, interior and on and on.

So now take the 160 hours and double it to 320 hours and you'll be close.

Plus you've not considered the installation and subsequent removal for paint/powder coating and reinstallation of a lot of the components

My last car I bought as a painted roller with the DSE quadralink, F9, tubs and roll bar already installed and the firewall smoothed. I spent 400-500 hours finishing the car.

All in I would plan on $40K-$50K for the complete job plus parts

[rebelceb]

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!

I just noticed that you plan to install an "Idiot Column"..... PERFECT! LOL spelling error due to computer's autocorrect lol


Okay - being totally serious here. You've got all manor of good parts and an exceptional motor choice. You're parts list and list of work is well short on many items that WILL add costs - and shouldn't be underestimated. understood, and I have considered those and they are in his email to me and in our discussions, I just haven't listed them individually here and was hoping for consideration on these ancillary parts when throwing an estimated number at itFor instance - there's no mention of the new rear end that will be required. Either your 12 bolt will need narrowing - or you'll be buying the standard new Ford 9" - narrowed. I mentioned it in my list under "DSE 9"" as it will already come narrowed, brackets welded on and powder coated

People ALWAYS underestimate the amount of little things... Such as - once you pull the fenders and front end off the car - and really take a look at just how FUGLY the firewall is on these cars... you'll want to smooth that (already in your bid). Then once that's smoothed - the inner fenders look FUGLY - so you'll have those smoothed and painted (not mentioned). agreed to a degree, my goal for this car isn't to be a show stopper or SEMA car, but a car that looks like a 2016 version of a 69 Camaro that can be driven and used without concern for getting a scratch or a knick in the paintThen the hinges are crap - so you'll need Ring Brothersmay send new hinges or keep the stock ones as they are new with the restoration a few years ago... And when you change out the tranny for a more modern version (such as your already listed T56) - you'll find your console doesn't work anymore... no console in the car currently, and no plan for one

Now - you'll also get up under the dash and (maybe) find that you have 47 year old wiring... and you're trying to find a home for a couple ECU's and their associated relays etc.... so plan to do a full wiring upgrade. Not to mention the addition of your Vintage Air.... that means the entire dash is already out of the car - so might as well clean everything up. And you'll also find that your "AstoVents" don't seal outside air anymore - so those have to be fixed - or better yet, eliminated. consideration for this is included in his quote

Do you want your "Stainless exhaust" TIG welded or just butchered with a MIG machine? Do you want them to go up over the axle? Clear that old gas tank? Nope - you need a new gas tank with the proper pumps and billet vents...gas tank included if you will notice, and no doubt they would TIG weld the exhaust. the shop I am dealing with is extremely reputable, I just haven't mentioned them because I have nothing negative to say and don't want it to cloud anyones judgement

I'm not trying to be negative here at all.... I'm being REALISTIC. You're already complaining about the proposed bid. That tells me you're not educated on what you're getting in to. I'm just trying to give you a realistic "heads up".I am educated to a point, and I am not complaining. my question has to do with how many hours because I believe it could be done for half the labor hours that he has quoted or less based on talking to others, but you guys are more of an expert than me and those that I have talked to.



Here you go based on doing several 69s PT cars.. Having the car painted already will add additional time. Hours included removing the original parts. These estimated hours may or not be what a shop charges and depends on how many guys they have working on your car. I understand working around existing paint takes additional time, but still costs less than a total repaint. as far as removing old parts, I am planning to do that myself although he quoted me on me driving the car to them as it sits and them doing the tear down and installation. No doubt I will save labor by bringing him a rolling chassis.


LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc) 24 hours
DSE front subframe 12 hours
DSE body mounts 2 hours
DSE Mini tub 40 hours
DSE QUADRAlink 40 hours
DSE anti-roll bar 2 hour
DSE subframe connectors inc in quadralink
DSE 9" 8 hours
DSE gas tank 2 hours
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges 8 hours with wiring
DSE wiper motor 2 hours
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted 10-12 hours
Vintage Air 12 hours
DSE Roll cage 24 hours
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster2 hours
Baer 6P brakes front and rear8 hours
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Idiot column 2 hours but I would use a GM Tilt insteadGood to know on the GM tilt, I will inquire
Stainless exhaust $2000

Ok that comes to 135 hours not including all the little stuff in between like running brake lines, fuel lines, put the car back together like the front clip, grill bumpers, interior and on and on.

So now take the 160 hours and double it to 320 hours and you'll be close. Good to know

Plus you've not considered the installation and subsequent removal for paint/powder coating and reinstallation of a lot of the components the plan is that most stuff will be powder coated from DSE (9", QUADRAlink, subframe, etc so hopefully nothing will have to be mocked up and torn back down. Obviously the firewall will need to be painted and the roll cage, subframe connectors, and the underneath, etc

My last car I bought as a painted roller with the DSE quadralink, F9, tubs and roll bar already installed and the firewall smoothed. I spent 400-500 hours finishing the car. Also good to know, that is still significantly less than the number of hours quoted.

All in I would plan on $40K-$50K for the complete job plus parts

[will69camaro]

Some excellent advice being given in here. Big items, while the bulk of the expense, can be surpassed individually by the small add on stuff, and it adds up fast.

I've been building my car for 5 years and it's been off and on in shops. I'm completing the car myself now and it seems there's always another 500-1000 to spend here and there. Hell my catch can solution for my motor is looking like it's rounding the corner for $500 and that's just a catch can!

As said, the further you dig into it, the more stuff you'll find that you want to change or you'll want to modify since you're there, and it all adds up in the end. Add in the nice car to start and as mentioned, working around those painted panels will cause more time to be spent being more careful!

I wish you luck, but expect the unexpected in cost...

I think I was told on here, take your original budget and triple it and it will be close.

[partsguy57]

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.
I'm sorry not trying to be rude. Your dreaming with these times.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[rebelceb]

I'm sorry not trying to be rude. Your dreaming with these times.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

So do you have a time estimation to contribute? Not trying to be rude either, I was just always taught to offer an alternative answer if disputing something.

I don't mean to be vague here either, I will tell everyone how many hours I have been quoted, I just want to get an idea so my answer influence anyone.

[ironworks]

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!


I feel like I should leave this thread alone, but I can tell you there is no way anyone will be happy with the job your asking to be done at 500 hours.

The actual scoop of labor your inquiring about is vastly undersold with the punch list you have.

Example 24 hours to install an LS7 with t56 is an absolute joke. Not possible.

I don't want you to get tricked or fooled into thinking this is easier then some people in this thread are trying to under sell it. Greg is pretty close to right on his 100k comment.

I would encourage you to take your punch list and truly break it down to all the steps you know about. It doesnt matter if you know what your doing. Take your best guess. Just that first step is really 2 pages long. if you break it down. Make a step by step list of the entire job and you will start to grasp what is really going on. Don't worry about custom options, AN hoses, mil spec connectors, relocated coils, super bad ass air intake.

Actual disassembly of car
Assembly of engine in sub
All plumbing
Radiator
dry sump - include mounting dry sump tank and breather
fuel system
air intake
engine breather system
power steering hoses
AC hose plumbing
routing engine wiring
fabrication for trans tunnel
install engine drive system
......


I don't have the time to go on and on. Just that first step could be a few weeks. Easy.

[Vega$69]

Example 24 hours to install an LS7 with t56 is an absolute joke. Not possible.


You can definitely install an LS and T56 in 24 hours. However as stated you can easily spend triple that or more in wiring, mounting the ECM and fuse box, cold air, tunnel mod for the T56 ( I use the Speedtech tunnel cover and you can spend a full day getting finished up from start to finish) and figuring out radiator hoses and so on.

As I posted I spent 400-500 hours on my car after the DSE quadralink, minis, rear end, roll bar and the firewall was smoothed.

That's the reason for a very detailed all inclusive contract with the shop. If you agree to an hourly rate based on an estimate you'll end up getting hosed big time.:whenitsdone:

[ironworks]

You can definitely install an LS and T56 in 24 hours. However as stated you can easily spend triple that or more in wiring, mounting the ECM and fuse box, cold air, tunnel mod for the T56 ( I use the Speedtech tunnel cover and you can spend a full day getting finished up from start to finish) and figuring out radiator hoses and so on.

As I posted I spent 400-500 hours on my car after the DSE quadralink, minis, rear end, roll bar and the firewall was smoothed.

That's the reason for a very detailed all inclusive contract with the shop. If you agree to an hourly rate based on an estimate you'll end up getting hosed big time.:whenitsdone:

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

[rebelceb]

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.

[Vega$69]

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

I believe we are saying the same thing just a different way.:G-Dub:

[Blake Foster]

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

YOU must be talking about disassembling the car, because exhaust takes slightly longer than 2 hours??? what are you talking about??

12 hours to install a complete brake system including ne lines not a chance.

I AM WITH RODGER when can you start!!! in our experience Rodger and Mike are RIGHT on at the 1:1 parts to labor cost (on a full build ) I would even starch it to 1.15 parts to 1 labor. when you include paint we just did a 67 minor body mods ZL1 hood insert in a factory cowl hood the car had NO RUST painted
black and color sanded with the sheet metal work it was 28,000.00 took 8 weeks of labor.
Greg is also correct 100,000 is a good starting point for a full redo. I have a 69 here that will probably end up for sale as it IS THIS EXAMPLE CUSTOMER HAD grand IDEAS and not enough money.

[ironworks]

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.

This industry is not like automotive repair. There is not one way to install those parts. So pitting one person's work against another bid is not fair or logical. We do everything on a time and materials basis. We do mostly repeat work for the same few guys who keep us loaded up with work. They don't come to my shop because we are cheap. They come here because they trust us, First and foremost. They come here because of what we are capable of. They come here because we try to do our absolute best. Are we cheap? Nope.

You have to decide the level you want. Do you just want those parts installed as they came from the supplier? Or do you want to paint this and coat that and make it yours? Do you want some one to just assemble your parts or do you want some one to build you a nice car? Those may sound like the same thing but they are not.

I usually skip these threads as it turns into an internet message board ego fest of who can do it better for less and the guys who build these cars charge way to much. And some guy in his garage with a pair of side cutters and auto zone battery cables can do the same install as DSE for 10% of the cost. Bullcrap. You get what you pay for.

If you looking for me to give a number, stop reading now and go take your list of really nice parts to the lowest bidder and ride his ass that it takes too long and costs way more then you thought. I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think people just need to learn the hard way. I think that mentality is bad for the industry, but there is no way to explain to some one how much work it really takes to do some thing nice.

Building cars is like buying a steak dinner. You can go to Sizzler and get a New York Strip with a Salad for what 9.99?

You can go to the Outback and get something similar for 17.99

You can go to Ruth Chris and get just the steak for 45 bucks and still need the side and the salad.

If you can't taste the difference in a 60 dollar dinner go to Sizzler. If you think Sizzler is like jerky you might pay more for the better meal. Some people only want Ruth Chris steakhouse and are willing to pay for it. Some people go to an even better steak.

Can you install and LS7 and T56 in 24 hours? I'm sure some one can. Will it look and taste like a dinner at Sizzler? I guarantee. Will you have issues? I'm positive. Can you buy dinner at Sizzler cheaper then you can buy a quality piece of meat at the store?

So why would you want to buy the best parts you can and have them installed by the cheapest bidder. I'm guessing DSE would get 200k for the job you asking about. No one is going to tell you that on the phone.

If you keep it simple you probably have 60k in parts. In a 1:1 ratio that's 120k for what your asking?

You would be money ahead to just buy the car your asking to build. Someone has done this and is willing to sell it for the cost of parts some where. I'm sure.

[cjsgarage]

Rodger, Blake: I admit that the numbers are low. There are no doubt ancillary items that tag along. I usually like to redo the engine harness myself. That alone usually takes 16 hours to lay, sheath and cut to length/recrimp the ends.

Original Poster: I think that if you want it perfect, it's a billable hours deal. But I'm think I was more like Todd's answer in that this would get it set on the ground. It no doubt needs probably another two and a half weeks of work for rear end set up/driveshaft angles, underbody coatings or prep/paint, front end wiring, dash wiring, cage prep and paint, blah blah blah. Maybe more than two and a half weeks. I've never gotten a build of that scope done sooner than six months.

And I also tend to give stuff away. I guess I don't FEEL like it should take 32 hours to fit front sheet metal.. So I billed him 10.. Even though I really did work at it for 32 hours--straight. Perhaps that's why I closed. :EmoteClueless: :hairpullout:
But I do work with a hustle, and did close my shop. Maybe I'll apply for work at Ironworks and Speedtech!! Well, now that I've kicked myself out the door, maybe not.. :underchair:

[ironworks]

Rodger, Blake: I admit that the numbers are low. There Re no doubt ancillary items that tag along. I usually like to redo the engine harness myself. That alone usually takes 16 hours to lay, sheath and cut to length/recrimp the ends.

I think that if you want it perfect, it's a billable hours deal. But I'm think I was more like Todd's answer in that this would get it set on the ground. It no doubt needs probably another two and a half weeks of work for rear end set up/driveshaft angles, underbody coatings or prep/paint, front end wiring, dash wiring, cage prep and paint, blah blah blah. Maybe more than two and a half weeks. I've never gotten a build of that scope done sooner than six months.

And I also tend to give stuff away. I guess I don't FEEL like it should take 32 hours to fit front sheet metal.. Even though I really did work at it for 32 hours--straight. Perhaps that's why I closed. :EmoteClueless: :hairpullout:
But I do work with a hustle, and did close my shop. Maybe I'll apply for work at Ironworks and Speedtech!! Well, now that I've kicked myself out the door, maybe not.. :underchair:

Yeap - it shouldn't take 32 hours until it really does.

Chip Foose can build cars on TV in a week right?

[cjsgarage]

Freakin-A, he can!!! Ass Monkey can, too!

Tv shows make it really hard to build cars for people. A runner driver that looks like it drove out of the factory is not that hard to put together, I guess. But I never want it to look like the factory. I want it to have hidden wires. I want it to have the hose clamps hidden. I want it to have the coolant and a/c hoses tucked. I want the extra stuff removed. I want the firewall plate to have the same curves as the factory stamps do. And I want my customers to want the same thing. The Fairway 55 and fairway 70 aren't 150 hour cars.. That's for sure.


I feel like an ass lookin back over some of the times I put up. Sorry guys. I guess I should keep my fingers off the keyboard after midnight.

[MaxHarvard]

I have personally done virtually everything on your list and while I'm not an overly experienced mechanic/shop owner, I can that that list is quite extensive and will take several months at best. I gave myself a year to do all of those things and I had all the parts ready for me!

Even if you had one dedicated tech on it for 40hrs a week (which they won't) it will be 3-4 months easily.

Example... Mini tubs look sooooo easy right? Minimum 40hrs of labor for a competent tech, longer if they do it 'nice'.

Let's not forget that once everything is nicely finished, guess what? Add another 20+ hours into making sure everything actually works. It just doesn't plug-in and bingo-bango, magic! The engine will need tuning, AC will need to be charged and tested, suspension will need adjusting and fine tuning, then suddenly someone will notice that the dome light doesn't work... Now, that can be a 4-5 hour job if a wiring problem occurs and you need to remove pieces.

This isn't a big jigsaw puzzle that neatly fits together and you're done. Just because the description says it will fit a Camaro, doesn't mean it will right out of the box. I can't tell you how many hours I've had to modify parts to get them to fit just right. Is that a bad design? Hell no! That's the world of custom cars. That's hot rodding... and time.

I've been around long enough in the custom car world to know that whatever estimate you get... Instantly double it for time and cost. That's just how it goes.

[Smittys67]

1 Most good shops are labor X hours + materials

2 No Reputable Shop has that short of a wait for a job of this size.

3 Do more homework on shops. There is a massive difference between quality and zip screws and duct tape.


Roger, Greg and Blake thanks for the good advice.

[will69camaro]

What shop is it?

[Lous69]

I think there is a lot of good advice here already but one thing seems to be missing.

No matter who is quoting you what, You should ask for a list of their previous customers and talk to those people directly. The price of parts and labor is just a part of your actual customer experience.

The proof of what kind of shop you are talking to is probably best learned by talking to their customers. Of course, you could argue they will only provide you with a list of satisfied customers but hey, that is what you hope to be too, right?

Talk to those previous customers to see what led to their happiness and then honestly ask yourself if you are that kind of customer or not.

If it is one of the better known shops it shouldn't be hard to find some of their previous customers on your own.

The other thing I would investigate is whether or not the actual people who built the cars for the customers you talk to are still at the shop or not. Some shops are constantly replacing their workers and others have a very stable workforce. It would be hard to be assured of a similar positive experience if your work will actually be done by different people.

[Che70velle]

First of all, I HATE threads like this one....gives our hobby a bad taste in people's mouth when they realize what this actually costs, and how long it takes.
There are a zillion shops out there that will tell you what you want to hear to get you in the door. I read a lot of threads/articles about the guy who had big dreams of owning a "top notch" pro touring build. He did a LITTLE research of shops in his area, and picked one. Loaded up his car and dropped it off at the shop. The shop owner promised him a totally undoable time line, while at the same time received a large down payment from the car owner. Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, you get the picture, and very little is happening to the vehicle. Car owner gets frustrated, and demands results. Shop moves car into staging area and stuff happens, but it's not fast enough. Shop owner blames vendors, and the next post, or part of the article tells how the angry car owner pulled his project that is now partially disassembled out, and didn't get the earnest money back. The entire process gave the car owner a bad taste of our hobby, and it all goes up for sale. DONT BE THAT GUY!
Don't settle for a shop that promises to get you in line next, at a half price rate. If they can do that, then you don't want them ANYWHERE NEAR your car.
To state that the shop your looking at "is just as reputable as DSE" is a big statement. They do exist, but they also are all backed up for a year, and for a good reason.
Your willing to spend $50k on parts, you better be willing to spend $50k on labor. It's just the way it is. And if it takes the shop a year, so be it.
This site alone contains many builds that costed 6 digits to build.

[SSChef]

:popcorn2:


OP,
Honestly, I would start with your budget then see what can be done for that. If you are building over your means you will waste money on storage fees and money in the long run.

Shops that don't charge enough don't last. I know this first hand.

This type of work requires time. Anyone can slap an engine/trans in and call it a day. It has to be done correctly and that takes time.

I have been working with a few shop getting work done and you can tell which ones are experienced or not. The worst is getting into a shop that quotes low and then tries to come back later when they are over their heads asking for more money. Look at what they have in the shop and what has left the shop. A reputable shop should have a good portfolio on hand or on line.

good luck

[Vince@Meanstreets]

You will be north of 300 after we talk about plumbing and full vehicle wiring.

[Blake Foster]

But I do work with a hustle, and did close my shop. Maybe I'll apply for work at Ironworks and Speedtech!! Well, now that I've kicked myself out the door, maybe not.. :underchair:

I will pay you flat rate and probably double what you charged that guy lol
come on down

[cfwjr1974]

700-1000 hours for everything including fabrication, paint, and body. If you're doing a high end really detailed show quality car. If several people are working on it at once, then divide the hour total by the number of people. You'll be close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Poster said he is keeping the paint on it now.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!

What kind of times are you seeing from the shop that can start in May?

[rebelceb]

700-1000 hours for everything including fabrication, paint, and body. If you're doing a high end really detailed show quality car. If several people are working on it at once, then divide the hour total by the number of people. You'll be close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You didn't read anything did you?

LET ME RESTATE- no body paint beyond necessary for suspension and firewall work and I am not looking for a SEMA car. I want a versatile street car that can outperform most modern cars on the street or the track should I find an opportunity to track it. I am also looking to drive it to events, the power tour, etc and not load it in a trailer and haul it to a show.

What kind of times are you seeing from the shop that can start in May?
Estimation based on another build they did, where they did not do the paint (but did do some body mods and it was a convertible so they did some work on the top) was 668 hours. He felt it would be less due to no convertible top or body work at all other than the firewall, mini-tubs, and suspension, but not much.

My thought was that it was closer to 300-350 hours worth of work. The real number will likely lie somewhere between my number and his, I just didn't know how much more or less. That's why I came here.

[Che70velle]

Rebelceb, are you on the east coast? Just wondering due to shop hourly rates being so different from East coast to West coast.
Looking forward to seeing your car finished. It will be a beast!

[rebelceb]

Rebelceb, are you on the east coast? Just wondering due to shop hourly rates being so different from East coast to West coast.
Looking forward to seeing your car finished. It will be a beast!

Not sure I qualify as the East Coast. I'm in MS, so I guess that qualifies as the Gulf Coast and east of the MS River. The shop I have been talking to is in Tennessee, though. Most other shops I have talked to are in the $90-$95/hr range.

[GregWeld]

Estimation based on another build they did, where they did not do the paint (but did do some body mods and it was a convertible so they did some work on the top) was 668 hours. He felt it would be less due to no convertible top or body work at all other than the firewall, mini-tubs, and suspension, but not much.

My thought was that it was closer to 300-350 hours worth of work. The real number will likely lie somewhere between my number and his, I just didn't know how much more or less. That's why I came here.



Wow.... Please don't start this project. Just drive the car as is and enjoy it.

[DBasher]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=50766
Just an example, asking $110k with well over $185k into the build......

My suggestion, enjoy the restored 69 you've got while you look for the finished, or mostly finished car that's in your head. I know it's not what you were originally asking but it's worth looking into.
Clearly you're wanting to enjoy the finished product, why deal with the hassle of a long term build?

Good luck with it.
:thumbsup:



p.s. Don't do it

[raustinss]

Ryan gets excited jumps from the couch and makes a HUGE bowl of popcorn a few beers and a pillow ...might have to nap....slides back onto the couch and opens his beer . Grabs a handful of popcorn and silently watches what seems to be a sh#t storm starting

[GregWeld]

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.




You have no idea how much knowledge is on this website. That's why we're trying to help you. We've been there and done that. Some of us dozens of times. You asked a very good question - stated the scope of work - and you've gotten very good responses. They are honest, unbiased, and come from experienced people in the business, or in the hobby for many years. We can argue about who what when and how much over and over... but what YOU need to take away from the discussion is - whatever you think you want this job to cost - it's going to cost way more. Just be prepared for that and you'll be fine. If you're not prepared or willing to do whatever it takes/costs... then just don't start the project because you will be disappointed. This hobby should be called "can of worms" because that's what it is. Every builder on here will tell you that.

Your Camaro looks great as is... and it may be the most solid 47 year old Camaro on the planet - but we're trying to warn you of the pitfalls of what we've all experienced. That's the best we can do.

Stick around - go thru the builds here - just start in the Projects section. Sort that section by "views"... start with page one of any of the projects you pick and go thru the thread. You'll see dozens of perfectly good cars start off with simple (some not so simple) "mods"... Look and see how many truly nice looking cars get started and then the "discovery period" and the "oh wow" unfolds as the owner finds out his pretty paint is covering over some pretty nasty 47 year old ugliness... See how weeks or months turns into YEARS... see how simple turns into SEMA.... See how perfect laser straight bondo is hiding sink holes of time and money. Then when YOU are ready - take yours to the shop. It's exciting - it's fun - it's satisfying - it's camaraderie - it can be lasting friendships... It's not for the light of wallet - the faint of heart - the married with children - or the guy that thinks it's easy and cheap.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=50766
Just an example, asking $110k with well over $185k into the build......

My suggestion, enjoy the restored 69 you've got while you look for the finished, or mostly finished car that's in your head. I know it's not what you were originally asking but it's worth looking into.
Clearly you're wanting to enjoy the finished product, why deal with the hassle of a long term build?

Good luck with it.
:thumbsup:



p.s. Don't do it

But everything on that car is custom... I don't think that is what the OP is after going by his wanting to preserve the current paint job.

Before I assume any more,

Rebelceb, what kind of a build are you after? A show car or a driver with nice components. That right there will tell you the scope of what your build will cost you.
For $60-75K (which is where you are headed with your 300 hour vision) you are not going to get a custom interior, detailed under carriage you can eat off of and a high point show winner.

[Blake Foster]

Stick around - go thru the builds here - just start in the Projects section. Sort that section by "views"... start with page one of any of the projects you pick and go thru the thread. You'll see dozens of perfectly good cars start off with simple (some not so simple) "mods"... Look and see how many truly nice looking cars get started and then the "discovery period" and the "oh wow" unfolds as the owner finds out his pretty paint is covering over some pretty nasty 47 year old ugliness... See how weeks or months turns into YEARS... see how simple turns into SEMA.... See how perfect laser straight bondo is hiding sink holes of time and money. Then when YOU are ready - take yours to the shop. It's exciting - it's fun - it's satisfying - it's camaraderie - it can be lasting friendships... It's not for the light of wallet - the faint of heart - the married with children - or the guy that thinks it's easy and cheap.

THIS IS EXACTLY what happened to the 69 in our shop NOW

[ironworks]

EVERYONE - Thinks its cheap then it is. EVERYONE

There is no way to get a guy to pour his heart and soul into something and work on it as if it was their own and yet give you a bid. In a job like this I want a guy to sweat the details.

If you want it built like a house, get a bid. I just built a nice shop in my back yard and found out it costs extra to have the trade guys clean up their own mess after wards. That's not included in the price. YEAH. really.

Years ago I had the cheaper guy tile the kitchen floor for my wife and every time I slide my dinning room table chair back I'm reminded that my floor tiles are not even level to each other. As it catches on every edge. I saved 400 bucks.

You almost always get what you pay for.

[DBasher]

But everything on that car is custom... I don't think that is what the OP is after going by his wanting to preserve the current paint job.

Before I assume any more,

Rebelceb, what kind of a build are you after? A show car or a driver with nice components. That right there will tell you the scope of what your build will cost you.
For $60-75K (which is where you are headed with your 300 hour vision) you are not going to get a custom interior, detailed under carriage you can eat off of and a high point show winner.

Vince you're correct, it's not apples to apples. My point was more of buying a finished or near finished car...it's been made real clear that these builds snowball and you get what you pay for....if you're just a check writer and don't care to be a part of the build why would you go through the hassle? If it was a Riddler or SEMA build I can see going through the build process and being part of the design process. To me, this is another 69 Camaro with the DSE catalog thrown at it that will never be more than what could be accomplished with simple bolt on's and an LS/trans swap.

To the op, be clear with what you want out of the car and do your homework. You'll either end up with exactly what you want for the price you're happy with or you won't. Lots of great info here, not just the thread but the site.
:thumbsup:

[57hemicuda]

Always love these threads, brings out the guys that should have been on their high school debate teams, instead of chasing skirts and doing burn outs like I know they were doing.

Doing everything yourself is the only way I know of to build a high end car on the cheap. Even then, the parts listed alone is going to get you up there. Like a house, the framing, and big things are the cheap part, its when you get inside that the money starts hemorrhaging.

Figure an LS7 install sounds easy, hell they make mounts, headers etc. The little things you don't think about, dry sump tank, lines, and remote filter, are another 2K most people don't budget for, nor the labor to custom make mounts etc could end up another 2K.

I really don't think there are a lot of people that could build these cars cheaper then I do, but man I still spend a lot of cash on cars, and the hours easily get into the thousands. You build custom cars because you want to, knowing the budget can get stretched out of shape. That is why I would never barrow money to build a car, it needs to be something that you love, and can afford, because if it gets out of your comfort level, you shouldn't even start.

Just my 2 cents

[DOOM]

You have no idea how much knowledge is on this website. That's why we're trying to help you. We've been there and done that. Some of us dozens of times. You asked a very good question - stated the scope of work - and you've gotten very good responses. They are honest, unbiased, and come from experienced people in the business, or in the hobby for many years. We can argue about who what when and how much over and over... but what YOU need to take away from the discussion is - whatever you think you want this job to cost - it's going to cost way more. Just be prepared for that and you'll be fine. If you're not prepared or willing to do whatever it takes/costs... then just don't start the project because you will be disappointed. This hobby should be called "can of worms" because that's what it is. Every builder on here will tell you that.

Your Camaro looks great as is... and it may be the most solid 47 year old Camaro on the planet - but we're trying to warn you of the pitfalls of what we've all experienced. That's the best we can do.

Stick around - go thru the builds here - just start in the Projects section. Sort that section by "views"... start with page one of any of the projects you pick and go thru the thread. You'll see dozens of perfectly good cars start off with simple (some not so simple) "mods"... Look and see how many truly nice looking cars get started and then the "discovery period" and the "oh wow" unfolds as the owner finds out his pretty paint is covering over some pretty nasty 47 year old ugliness... See how weeks or months turns into YEARS... see how simple turns into SEMA.... See how perfect laser straight bondo is hiding sink holes of time and money. Then when YOU are ready - take yours to the shop. It's exciting - it's fun - it's satisfying - it's camaraderie - it can be lasting friendships... It's not for the light of wallet - the faint of heart - the married with children - or the guy that thinks it's easy and cheap.

Perfect!!! And I'm liven it!

[Vegas69]

Get a clear vision for the car before you write the first check. What will you do with the car? Why do you want to build it?

These guys are very knowledgable, but they own and build some high end stuff. Personally, I'd never get as deep as I did in one of these cars ever again. I had over $130,000 in mine and that included at least 1000 hours of my own labor. (Ground up restoration) Was it worth it? Today, I'd say no. I ended up with a car that was really to nice to enjoy safely. This hobby is like crack. Once you start, it's hard to pull on the reigns.

I'm with these guys, you are getting in to deep with your expectations. Make some tasteful modifications that won't cost a boat load of money. Then get out and enjoy the damn car. How many miles do you really expect to put on it? Would you like to leave it parked somewhere and not have a nervous breakdown. Could somebody lean on it? Are you willing to let it get chipped up?

I did this with mine but I needed a shrink. I sold mine for $85k before I folded it up into a retaining wall. Didn't miss it the day after... I just don't get attached to STUFF.

[rebelceb]

Wow.... Please don't start this project. Just drive the car as is and enjoy it.

I'm not exactly sure what this reaction was for, but I'm also not sure what the negativity is about. I know you think you are the man around here because some of these guys bow on their knees for you, but you don't know my situation or what I am wanting to accomplish. You also haven't asked.

I came here asking a question, and wanting to know if my expectations were realistic. You seem to think they are not, but I have been open minded and honest about what I thought based on research I have done and other people I have talked to.

Even the builder said the end result should land less than the number of hours he quoted, I just wanted ideas on how out of range my expectation was and how I could "police" the hours they spend as well as I can. I have had guys reach out and offer their help and have offered their advice, along with actual builders stating what they thought a reasonable guesstimation should be.

One even said this- "don't get into a pissing match with guys telling you what's best for you when it's not their money."

That's probably the best advice I have gotten when it comes to a certain segment of this forum.

But everything on that car is custom... I don't think that is what the OP is after going by his wanting to preserve the current paint job.

Before I assume any more,

Rebelceb, what kind of a build are you after? A show car or a driver with nice components. That right there will tell you the scope of what your build will cost you.
For $60-75K (which is where you are headed with your 300 hour vision) you are not going to get a custom interior, detailed under carriage you can eat off of and a high point show winner.

Thank you! I am absolutely not going after a total custom that does not even appear functional. I don't care about show, all I care about is go and enjoying the car.

I am after a driver with very nice components. I want a build that can do most anything I throw at it, from an occasional autocross event, cruise-ins, cars and coffee, date nights or Sunday drives. If it's a nice day during the middle of the week, and since I work from home, it may even get driven to the grocery store, to run errands, or out to lunch with a buddy and parked in a normal spot in the parking lot. I do not care about a high point show winner, I don't care about a SEMA car, I don't care about a shop flashing my car on Facebook and Instagram. I want a set of Recaro's for seats and the remainder of the interior the same as what I have in it now other than also a different dash/gauges. I don't want to be so scared it may get a rock chip that I never drive it. I want a car I can drive whenever I want, wherever I want, do what I want, and look good doing it. It may even accidentally get caught in the rain one of these days, oh the horror!

Vince, a PM is headed your way.

[rebelceb]

You have no idea how much knowledge is on this website. That's why we're trying to help you. We've been there and done that. Some of us dozens of times. You asked a very good question - stated the scope of work - and you've gotten very good responses. They are honest, unbiased, and come from experienced people in the business, or in the hobby for many years. We can argue about who what when and how much over and over... but what YOU need to take away from the discussion is - whatever you think you want this job to cost - it's going to cost way more. Just be prepared for that and you'll be fine. If you're not prepared or willing to do whatever it takes/costs... then just don't start the project because you will be disappointed. This hobby should be called "can of worms" because that's what it is. Every builder on here will tell you that.

Your Camaro looks great as is... and it may be the most solid 47 year old Camaro on the planet - but we're trying to warn you of the pitfalls of what we've all experienced. That's the best we can do.

Stick around - go thru the builds here - just start in the Projects section. Sort that section by "views"... start with page one of any of the projects you pick and go thru the thread. You'll see dozens of perfectly good cars start off with simple (some not so simple) "mods"... Look and see how many truly nice looking cars get started and then the "discovery period" and the "oh wow" unfolds as the owner finds out his pretty paint is covering over some pretty nasty 47 year old ugliness... See how weeks or months turns into YEARS... see how simple turns into SEMA.... See how perfect laser straight bondo is hiding sink holes of time and money. Then when YOU are ready - take yours to the shop. It's exciting - it's fun - it's satisfying - it's camaraderie - it can be lasting friendships... It's not for the light of wallet - the faint of heart - the married with children - or the guy that thinks it's easy and cheap.

I am quite aware how much knowledge is here, that's why I asked. What I didn't ask for was people to be negative and give me a laundry list of their opinions about me not knowing what I want or what I don't know or that I shouldn't do this or that. I asked direct questions, some have given very honest, unbiased, and helpful answers. Others have not.

This is the most helpful post you have made in this thread as far as I am concerned.

I love the car, but I want to make it where I can do more with it and therefore enjoy it more. I know there are always surprises and I am prepared for those. I just wanted to know if I was off base in my thinking. I have an end goal and a vision for what I want, I just want to be sure I am taking the correct path to get there. I don't want an ongoing project for years. I want to get it done, over with, and be able to enjoy actually driving the car instead of working on it and making very little progress. I am newly signed up here, but I have been lurking for quite some time.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The biggest surprise you will find is that the paint isn't as good as you think and hidden rust in sections that will be removed during the installation of the components in your list. Rusty floor pan, upper cowl and frame rails are the most common "oh crap" sections.

The thing you are going to have to resist is that something better came out and that starts that perpetual snow ball that kills your budget and you get a car you are afraid to drive.

[cjsgarage]

Of change-of-plans project creep. Sometimes the car just takes long enough to build that you change your mind on brakes or radiator or fan setup or something and it ends up taking a whole bunch of other items down with it. Brakes might affect spindle.. Fans might affect computer and wiring. Radiator might interfere with the a/c condenser or cooler lines or whatever it is. So many times, one revision has led to many hours backtracking.

[GregWeld]

What you asked for was peoples opinions on what a job should cost.... and that's what you got. You then went from "is this correct" to "I think it should be half that amount" <quotes are mine>. That immediately tells me a lot about you. You claim the shop that gave you the bid is "reputable" - yet you don't trust them, because you came on here questioning their bid and claiming you should be able to get it done in far less time.

A) You don't have a clue

B) You can't afford to have the work done

C) You really didn't want peoples opinions, you just wanted someone to agree with your clueless guess, and you didn't get it.

[ironworks]

Apparently people ask a question they really didn't want an answer for. Welcome to the internet.


Do these jeans make my butt look big? Nope you Great Big Giant Ass makes your butt look big. The jeans have nothing to do with that.

I have come to the conclusion that people just have to experience the process for themselves. The car hobby is a hobby that people really want to look knowledge able and think they understand it as some form of self confidence and some sort of common sense. But there are so many different facets of cars and construction that there really are no "proven" techniques to learn some where, you just have to really be smart enough to see how one issue will affect 10 others and make the best compromise. And be slick enough to pull it all together in a nice package in the end.

One 2 cent Butt connector and ruin a half million dollar pile of parts that is no fun to drive or have it even work. The details matter the most, and until some one realizes that, its all for not.

[rebelceb]

What you asked for was peoples opinions on what a job should cost.... and that's what you got. You then went from "is this correct" to "I think it should be half that amount" <quotes are mine>. That immediately tells me a lot about you. You claim the shop that gave you the bid is "reputable" - yet you don't trust them, because you came on here questioning their bid and claiming you should be able to get it done in far less time.

A) You don't have a clue

B) You can't afford to have the work done

C) You really didn't want peoples opinions, you just wanted someone to agree with your clueless guess, and you didn't get it.

You have obviously misunderstood me somewhere along the way. I do know that the shop is reputable, but I don't think blindly trusting someone with ~$100k is smart in anyone's book. A little confirmation and checking goes a long way, particularly the first time doing business with someone, regardless of their reputation. Ever heard the quote,"Never trust nobody!"?

A) I absolutely have a clue.

B) I'm pretty sure I know what I can afford. I can afford to do whatever I want with the car, but I'm also smart enough (and have enough of a clue) to know that I don't want to be wasteful in spending a bunch of unnecessary money just because some guy on an internet forum told me I should.

C)I do want people's opinions, that's why I asked. I wanted to know if I was off base and have had confirmation from a few that his number was on the high end, and that mine may have been on the low end. You have not given me any of the answer I sought. You've done nothing but attempt to belittle me and pound your chest when you in reality don't have a ****ing clue who I am or what I'm about.

[rebelceb]

Apparently people ask a question they really didn't want an answer for. Welcome to the internet.


Do these jeans make my butt look big? Nope you Great Big Giant Ass makes your butt look big. The jeans have nothing to do with that.

I have come to the conclusion that people just have to experience the process for themselves. The car hobby is a hobby that people really want to look knowledge able and think they understand it as some form of self confidence and some sort of common sense. But there are so many different facets of cars and construction that there really are no "proven" techniques to learn some where, you just have to really be smart enough to see how one issue will affect 10 others and make the best compromise. And be slick enough to pull it all together in a nice package in the end.

One 2 cent Butt connector and ruin a half million dollar pile of parts that is no fun to drive or have it even work. The details matter the most, and until some one realizes that, its all for not.

You obviously have also misunderstood me. I'm not wanting to reinvent the wheel here. Yes it will take wiring, and running brake lines, etc etc, but 90% of what I am asking for is fitting or bolting parts in or on. Yes there's some welding, but I'm not asking for a bunch of custom one-off pieces that a lot of guys get into. I'm wanting the same stuff done to this car that most shops have the capacity to do and have done multiple times per year.

[Blake Foster]

Perfect!!! And I'm liven it!

SAY IT ISN'T SO!!! :thumbsup:

[ironworks]

You obviously have also misunderstood me. I'm not wanting to reinvent the wheel here. Yes it will take wiring, and running brake lines, etc etc, but 90% of what I am asking for is fitting or bolting parts in or on. Yes there's some welding, but I'm not asking for a bunch of custom one-off pieces that a lot of guys get into. I'm wanting the same stuff done to this car that most shops have the capacity to do and have done multiple times per year.

Buddy your getting awesome advice from some of the most well versed people on this site and telling them you think its different.

I get a call from a guy asking about what your asking all the time. I'm sure these other guys do. Your putting people down who are not telling you want you want to hear.

The project is a lot bigger then you even realize whether you choose to admit it or not. I hate these threads and for some reason I have tried to educate you. Almost half the calls we get for work are from guys just like you that went to another shop and now need another shop to fix what the other shop said they could do for X price.

Good luck, I hope you make all of us look wrong.

[Che70velle]

Rebelceb, no one here is trying to belittle you here. The reason that I spend my time here is because this site is full of educated, experienced, welcoming, fun-spirited folks, who freely offer advice when asked, and don't pick apart peoples rides when they have built them the way that they wanted. It truly is THE best performance car forum on the net.
There have been a couple of these "what's my $100k car really gonna cost me?" threads pop up, since I've been around and they don't ever get anywhere. You've gotten sound advice here, from some of the biggest names in the business.
You can always try what I did with my Chevelle. Truthfully, I don't have an extra $100k to blow on a car, so I did all my work myself, except spray the outside of the car, and an alignment. I also had an upholsterer stitch up my tunnel cover, but besides that it was all me. It took me over 4 years, which I know your not wanting to wait for, but that's what it took. I work alone, because I want to, not because I have to. I have under $40k in my car, and it's nice. It's a driver and that's what I set out to build. In fact, I'm going to pick my son up from school in a couple hours on it. I'm just trying to give you an option here, because shop labor is money. The type of build your wanting to do, which is pretty common here on LatG, will be lots of shop labor money. Nothing you can do about it, if you want it nicely done, unless you do it yourself.
If a 69 Camaro built the way your wanting yours built costed $60k EVERYBODY would own one.

[Musclerodz]

3....2....1....

[dontlifttoshift]

My thought was that it was closer to 300-350 hours worth of work.

Out of sheer curiosity, how did you determine this number? What background do you have that allows you to make this estimate?

I'm not trying to bait you into an argument, I genuinely want to know why you think that it should take that amount of hours.

[DBasher]

Go easy guys, he's just misunderstood...:lol:

Rebelceb, I've got some more unwanted opinions for you. Go back to the first page and reread what everyone has wrote....I did and didn't see anything offensive or belittling toward you from anyone. I found a lot of great information from guys that have been down this road before. Its a forum man, topics tend to get off track from the original question(s), information is given and generally it circles back on track...Calling people out about what they do in their free time isn't necessary, neither is making an assumption that a bunch of "friends" bow down to each other...that'll get you nowhere fast.

My last .02, PM or call around to more shops with your scope of work and see what they say, get a bit more educated on what you're trying to get done.

[Vegas69]

You will eventually find a shop that will agree with you and tell you what you wan t to hear. It's called the bait and switch. You will end up with a much larger bill or you will end up with a botched up car that will need redone. I've seen it over and over around here..

Set a budget and let the shops know what it is. Then they can tell you what you can afford. That's really the best way. You get a few perspectives on your budget and go with who you feel most comfortable with.

Everything takes way longer than you think and it doesn't fit right. That means more labor, more freight, more creep, and a bigger bill.

While my friends here have little grace, they are right to a degree. The truth will be determined by your cars current quality and your expectations. Nobody can give you an accurate number. It's an educated guess. There is only one way to find out, do the dance and build the car.

[wrighton]

Thank You to all of the responses to this thread. Thus is all if the conversations that should be had before any project that should be started.

This is also the reason my car gas been apart as a bare Shell for 8 years. I recently bought a heat gun to scrape out body sealer. I know it should be done before blasting and I am not willing to pay for it.

[LateralJeaz]

I've been a longtime lurker here too, All I have to say is...Greg is a riot all fired up.....and Todd is getting soft in his old age. Who's with me?

[JKnight]

I don't think Greg's fired up yet, he's just been passionate about his recommendation. Similar to his passion for sharing investing knowledge. I know I can't afford budget overruns on my pro-tour project, since they're a fact of life, I do the work myself whenever possible.

[raustinss]

I know my bowl of popcorn is getting low, ran out of beer. Everyone hold on I got to get refills to continue watching this.

[Vegas69]

I've been a longtime lurker here too, All I have to say is...Greg is a riot all fired up.....and Todd is getting soft in his old age. Who's with me?

Refined, buddy...:D :D

[raustinss]

OK so I'm ready to go

Here is maybe a perfect example on a smaller scale . I'm a fabricator. I built myself a rotisserie from plans drawn by redwingsteelworks. I happened to mention to my engine builder that I was surprised his shop didn't have one for the resto-mod they do . One thing leads to another and we're discussing me making another but for him. I went thru the cut list got my boss to quote me a price knowing that this is for him. I presented it to him and his questions were why is it more thrn what you said yours cost . The devil is in the details. Eg when I built mine I took the time also a Lil OCD about some stuff . I made sure that the seams of the tunes were all facing the same direction from piece to piece, all of the jam nuts are aligned and welded the same, all the holes were countersunk to break the edge, all the tunes were de-burred inside and out so there are no sharp edges anywhere , I chipped and ground off any and all splatter and, then everything was blasted ,primed and, painted . Now back to the engine guy ... he wanted his to look like mine but didn't know how much extra time all this would game. He's now getting a rotisserie bare steel , not blasted, not chipped and cleaned , but is getting a lot of the other details done .

Does any of this make sense , yes other shops can toss parts together but if you don't watch the details that's what can make the job go sideways real fast.

As for Greg Weld, never met the guy ....probably never will , has a nice house and shop and such, seems like he'd be cool to have a few beers with and tell stories about things we've never done with cars we will never own or women we've never met. IF I did meet him and he turns out to be a a**hole then fine.... But don't think for A second that I'm going to blow any smoke up his arse or any one else's. 20$ in your pocket Is worth the same in mine ... if I eat too man tacos and get the sh**s well I'm thinking you get the idea . We're all the same .

Attached are 2 pictures where you can see some of the details I mentioned from my rotisserie..... OK so I guess I have to resize the pictures I will try to do that and upload them later

[GregWeld]

Out of sheer curiosity, how did you determine this number? What background do you have that allows you to make this estimate?

I'm not trying to bait you into an argument, I genuinely want to know why you think that it should take that amount of hours.



Donny --- He knows that it's just "some welding" (his post #55 in this thread) -- and wiring and running brake lines - but mostly it's all bolt ons....

He's not clueless and has deep pockets. We know that, because he said so on the Internet. Just for good measure - the shop he respects is also clueless on what it takes to do the job. The reason he knows this is because someone he talked to said so! Despite the advice of people that are intimately familiar with the work saying it will cost more than the initial bid "guesstimate"... He will no doubt continue to search until he finds a shop willing to bid the job for what he thinks it should be. We all know the outcome already. Then maybe his ego will allow him to come back and get in line with all the other ass kissers on here.:G-Dub: :popcorn2:


In summation - He came here as a new poster - asked advice - got it - didn't like it - so then everyone on here is an idiot, and misunderstands him. He's really a super knowledgeable individual with a sh!t load of money and has decades of experience in the hot rodding world... any and all advice is duly noted, and immediately discarded as an attack on him personally. There's no need for further discussion in an attempt to understand the advice offered. No attempt to understand the pitfalls of the work he'd like to have done despite the zillions of examples in this very forum. His is different.

[raustinss]

:popcorn2: well im back to the beer and popcorn ...for some reason my blackberry priv takes too good of pictures lol it has a 18 mp camera and im too dumb to resize them . if it really matter i could dig up the canon and see about resizing pictures on it but , its also a 18 mp camera .

So Greg about those beers .....think you could keep up with good old Canadian boy , we know how to drink .....

[GregWeld]

:popcorn2: well im back to the beer and popcorn ...for some reason my blackberry priv takes too good of pictures lol it has a 18 mp camera and im too dumb to resize them . if it really matter i could dig up the canon and see about resizing pictures on it but , its also a 18 mp camera .

So Greg about those beers .....think you could keep up with good old Canadian boy , we know how to drink .....

I'll match your beers one for one - with a Tonic..... I haven't had a drink in 31 years - 32 this May.

[GregWeld]

We all know that being "misunderstood" can be very disturbing! LOL





pq28qCklEHc

[raustinss]

I'll match your beers one for one - with a Tonic..... I haven't had a drink in 31 years - 32 this May.

ok well maybe if i get me arse to your side of the border and coast .

Happy Birthday in May ????

[66fury]

i will chime in and say ,knowing what i know as a do it yourself guy and being in the custom fabrication world it always takes more time and money than originally thought due to the "custom" factor.even things that are standard in the real world change dramatically in the custom world.as mentioned by many,things and ideas change during a build over the course of 6 months to a year or more.i refer to it as scope creep.if you ever plan on actually finishing a project ,be it a car or a home project etc etc,its time and money that gets it done even if you do it yourself.when your spending 50k$ ,are you not gonna finish it if another 10k$ is needed to get it done?my thoughts on the OP's original question is he is looking at 75K$ for the parts and labor he described.i feel he should sell his current car and take that money and buy an already built car ,quicker and cheaper in my book.

[RLJ676]

I did a pretty similar project and ended up at 300 hours only after many things went wrong and took re-doing... which is to be expected I'm sure. You're looking to do more though, including more wiring, quadralink and mini-tubs so I'd think under 500 is possible if everything is done "functional" and not showcar as you describe, and as mine was done. Which by the way I still love, and the shop that did it seemed to like it too as it's a car to be driven, not just to a show! Hell, I put real plates on it not historic as I drive it to work lol.

Here's what I had done for 300 hours, all on a nice driver like yours so no bodywork.

- LSA/TKO install w/ all plumbing, radiators, etc. (from a 3 spd auto/sbc)
- New brake lines/gas lines, fuel tank, etc, master cylinder
- Subframe connectors (not DSE so less hours)
- New rearend, leafs, etc.
- Custom mount 4th gen rear brakes
- re-wiring behind dash.
- Install 5th gen center console
- and I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff

I honestly think at least 50 hours were redoing stuff because vendors sent wrong crap, like a clutch spaced for a 6 spd, and headers that don't clear etc.

If you're still looking for shops call Matt at Sled Alley, great guys and they know first gens up and down. Worth shipping it up...

[rebelceb]

I know my bowl of popcorn is getting low, ran out of beer. Everyone hold on I got to get refills to continue watching this.

This is possibly the most childish series of words I have ever read on any internet forum, ever.

Donny --- He knows that it's just "some welding" (his post #55 in this thread) -- and wiring and running brake lines - but mostly it's all bolt ons.... What exactly would you describe it as? There is welding involved (a good bit actually) and a lot of bolt on stuff among other things. There's nothing truly "custom" about anything I am wanting outside of the variances of my car being different than the next car. We aren't reinventing the wheel here, nor are we trying to build a SEMA car.

He's not clueless and has deep pockets. We know that, because he said so on the Internet. Just for good measure - the shop he respects is also clueless on what it takes to do the job. The reason he knows this is because someone he talked to said so! Despite the advice of people that are intimately familiar with the work saying it will cost more than the initial bid "guesstimate"... He will no doubt continue to search until he finds a shop willing to bid the job for what he thinks it should be. We all know the outcome already. Then maybe his ego will allow him to come back and get in line with all the other ass kissers on here.:G-Dub: :popcorn2: No one said I had deep pockets. If I had an endless supply of cash I wouldn't give a **** what it cost and wouldn't care if it was wasteful. There you go putting words in my mouth again, because you are the all knowing dicksucker around here. I said, you don't know what I can afford or not afford.

I also didn't say the shop was clueless. I said they gave me an estimation based on another project that they did more work on and think it will be less. I asked if anything had an idea how much less before I go back to the shop and ask them to nail it down a bit closer and/or give me a breakdown. The reasonable people that have reached out to me have all said the shop I mentioned to them should be able to nail it down closer once we have further discussion about them doing the build and all have said they then understood why I said the shop was reputable. Because they are.

For what it's worth, the people that I have heard from that are "intimately familiar" with the work (two of them being DSE dealers) say the work should be far less than the 668 hour estimation. Three have said independently, 350-400 hours, and one saying 400-500 hours. They all have said that they are happy to help however they can, up to and including doing the work, but all have encouraged me to continue the process with the builder I have already been talking to and gave me pointers on how to get him to narrow the bid down and give actual estimates for each part vs a bulk guess at the sum of hours.


In summation - He came here as a new poster - asked advice - got it - didn't like it - so then everyone on here is an idiot, and misunderstands him. He's really a super knowledgeable individual with a sh!t load of money and has decades of experience in the hot rodding world... any and all advice is duly noted, and immediately discarded as an attack on him personally. There's no need for further discussion in an attempt to understand the advice offered. No attempt to understand the pitfalls of the work he'd like to have done despite the zillions of examples in this very forum. His is different.

I did get advice. Some good, and some that was nothing more than an attempt to belittle my questions and thump your chest. Not everyone is an idiot, not by any stretch. I have talked to some guys via PM and some via phone that have even commented in this thread. All have offered their help anyway they can, even though they know the won't be getting the work because of their own time schedule or due to geographic reasons. I never claimed to have decades of experience, or a **** load of money. The only personal attacks I have received are from you. You are correct, no further discussion needed from you because you add absolutely zero value to the discussion. I don't give a **** who you or your minions think you are or what you think you know or how many cars you have built or how much dicksucking goes on in your shop.

For those that have reached out and answered my questions via pm and phone, I can't thank you enough for taking the time and trying to help vs just not saying anything at all! You guys were right about some of the things said in this thread in more ways than one. Some positive, and obviously some negative.

[rebelceb]

I did a pretty similar project and ended up at 300 hours only after many things went wrong and took re-doing... which is to be expected I'm sure. You're looking to do more though, including more wiring, quadralink and mini-tubs so I'd think under 500 is possible if everything is done "functional" and not showcar as you describe, and as mine was done. Which by the way I still love, and the shop that did it seemed to like it too as it's a car to be driven, not just to a show! Hell, I put real plates on it not historic as I drive it to work lol.

Here's what I had done for 300 hours, all on a nice driver like yours so no bodywork.

- LSA/TKO install w/ all plumbing, radiators, etc. (from a 3 spd auto/sbc)
- New brake lines/gas lines, fuel tank, etc, master cylinder
- Subframe connectors (not DSE so less hours)
- New rearend, leafs, etc.
- Custom mount 4th gen rear brakes
- re-wiring behind dash.
- Install 5th gen center console
- and I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff

I honestly think at least 50 hours were redoing stuff because vendors sent wrong crap, like a clutch spaced for a 6 spd, and headers that don't clear etc.

If you're still looking for shops call Matt at Sled Alley, great guys and they know first gens up and down. Worth shipping it up...

That's not possible, because GregWeld says it isn't. He's right, and everyone else is wrong, including those that do these projects for a living everyday.

[Sheck44]

300 hours I guess is possible, but it ALL depends on the level of detail and the amount of custom work.

I have done most of my own work, and I can tell you for example I'll have about 40 hours just in making my centre console, and all in all I have at least 1500 ++ hours into my car. Now I have BAD OCD when it comes to my builds so I take painstaking care to get everything 100% perfect and this takes time.

If you want to throw a car together with some cool nice parts then I'm sure it can be done much faster.

Just my 2 cents ...

Cheers
Steve

[GregWeld]

I'm only going to post this last response -- because my original intent was an effort to help you understand - even though you're misunderstood.

"Bolts ons" - "some welding" - wiring - plumbing is NOT what will overrun the project... What we've been trying to point you to beware of - is that when you open the car up - many times cars that appear to be wonderfully built - you can find all manor of hidden issues with the body. So while the sub may be easy to bolt to the body -- it's another issue entirely when they pull back the carpets and find rot.

Please have the balls to come back here (you've made so many new friends) and let us know how it all works out for you.

[rebelceb]

I'm only going to post this last response -- because my original intent was an effort to help you understand - even though you're misunderstood.

"Bolts ons" - "some welding" - wiring - plumbing is NOT what will overrun the project... What we've been trying to point you to beware of - is that when you open the car up - many times cars that appear to be wonderfully built - you can find all manor of hidden issues with the body. So while the sub may be easy to bolt to the body -- it's another issue entirely when they pull back the carpets and find rot.

Please have the balls to come back here (you've made so many new friends) and let us know how it all works out for you.

and I understand all of that completely and totally agree with you. I did not ask for an estimation of the unknowns. They are exactly that, unknowns.

I asked for help on an estimation on labor hours to do the work I laid out, not the unknowns the shop may or may not run into. I'm smart enough to know that wouldn't be fair to ask, nor reasonable. I also don't deal in "what ifs". I am prepared for them, but that wasn't my question initially or anywhere in this thread since.

I will be happy to come back and let everyone know how it works out. If I was wrong and the car is a rust bucket, I will be happy to admit defeat. If it goes even semi-smoothly and the project gets done on time and in a reasonable labor hour range, I will be sure to let everyone know that as well.

[raustinss]

and I understand all of that completely and totally agree with you. I did not ask for an estimation of the unknowns. They are exactly that, unknowns.

I asked for help on an estimation on labor hours to do the work I laid out, not the unknowns the shop may or may not run into. I'm smart enough to know that wouldn't be fair to ask, nor reasonable. I also don't deal in "what ifs". I am prepared for them, but that wasn't my question initially or anywhere in this thread since.

I will be happy to come back and let everyone know how it works out. If I was wrong and the car is a rust bucket, I will be happy to admit defeat. If it goes even semi-smoothly and the project gets done on time and in a reasonable labor hour range, I will be sure to let everyone know that as well.


This is like a dog chasing it's own tail....everyone has said it wasn't possible based on quite a variety of reasons . . . myself included, you responded by arguing and now your saying that you already know about the " what ifs " and unknowns. THIS IS WHY I GRABED THE BOWL OF POPCORN. If you can't understand smart-ass humor, let me explain that was my way of saying let me watch this train wreck because that's exactly what it's turned into and guess who saw that coming both me and Helen Keller... cheers and yes please prove us all wrong with the results with tons of pictures

[Flash68]

Okay this has been fun and all, but this has run its course for now.

OP, if you want to share your results upon completion contact one of the moderators and we can open it back up. Or just start a new thread.