Starter spinning when key turned to ignition location?

[jlwdvm]

Ls3 in 69 firebird with GM starter and AAW Power Plus 20 rewire of complete car with battery in trunk is the project. I was checking a few areas for power before I do my first start up and noticed a problem. My GMTILT column key switch can be moved forward 3 times (first click, second click (ignition) and all the way forward (starter). The first click forward gets me no power to any of the ignition areas (this must be available so the steering wheel will unlock to be able to steer the car (mine has the lock removed anyways). When I move the key forward the second time that should get me 12 volts to ignition hot areas the starter kicks in and the motor starts to turn over. Do I have some wires switched around? Thanks!

[dontlifttoshift]

All the way back is accessory.

Next click is off.

Next is ignition run.

And the last one is Start, it is spring loaded.

That ignition switch is adjustable up and down the column.

[jlwdvm]

Woops...looks like I'll have to recheck things! I did have the ignition switch off of the column when I was wiring the car. Is there a trick to getting it adjusted right?

[dontlifttoshift]

Im sure there is but I don't know it. A quick goggle search should turn something up.

[jlwdvm]

I checked a few things. I have power at "Battery" locations throughout the wire harness; my headlights don't work; and I still have no power when the key is placed in the "Ignition" location with the key (1 click forward or backward). The headlights is probably an easy fix (hopefully), but the ignition power has me scratching my head.

[GregWeld]

Wiring is EXTREMELY difficult to diagnose over the internet.... But there are things you can do to test and to isolate an electrical issue.


#1 - You need a volt/ohm/continuity checker of some kind

#2 - You have to understand how to use #1

#3 - You have to understand that electricity is a CIRCUIT which consists of BOTH negative and positive connections.

#4 - You check (and label) one wire at a time

#5 - A "switch" is a circuit "maker" or "interrupter" - but that switch only makes a "break" in one side of the circuit. In other words - a wire coming in to the switch is 12V POSITIVE - then the wire going OUT is also 12V POSITIVE. A switch is not a junction box. A switch should/could have a 12V NEGATIVE terminal to ground it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I mention the switch because you're having ignition AND headlight issues. Tends to make me think there is a SWITCH wiring issue.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Let's deal with the headlights first since they're easy and might help you understand where your wiring is "messed up" (if it is)



Headlights typically have THREE wires leading to them -- Low beam - High beam - Ground. But there are TWO switches. One for turning on the low beam and a foot or stalk operated switch to operate the high beam.

For the moment - let's forget about the high beam and just see if the headlight switch is going to operate.

Remember that the dash switch is just going to switch the 12V POSITIVE.... as the headlights should have a black 12V ground wire - grounded to the chassis/bodywork/core support close to them.

The headlight SWITCH may or may not get the 12V power from the ignition switch (I'm not sure what your wiring system and switches are). Which may be your issue. No power from the ignition switch means no power to the headlight switch.

SO ------- Take your voltage tester and see if you have 12V + Power to the INPUT side of that switch. IF you don't have voltage there -- then you have to trace that INPUT side of that switch - see where that power is SUPPOSED to be coming from. Because one side of that switch is 12V in and the other goes "out" to either the floor switch or the stalk switch in order to run the lights. But you must also check to see that the lights are GROUNDED or you won't have a circuit. AND most likely - your SWITCH needs to have a ground.


Here's the best photo I could find of a GM headlight switch. FIND the red 12V POSITIVE input and see if you have 12V there. Also check that it makes a circuit between the ground (using your continuity function of the tester) GROUNDS are the most overlooked part of an electrical system. For whatever reason people just don't give them any attention and think they're just there for looks or something. When I make a ground connection I ALWAYS use a star washer UNDER the ground lug of the wire. A star washer goes between the attachment point (say the frame or fender) and the wire lug - they're used to CUT thru paint and get to bare metal in order to make good contact. I see people using them like a lock washer all the time - and that's WRONG.


This DIAGRAM may or may not be your switch -- if it's not - then GOOGLE a wiring diagram of YOUR switch so that you can see what it is you need to test..... I just pulled this one (common) off the net.




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Car%20info/GM_Headlight_Switch.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Car%20info/GM_Headlight_Switch.jpg.html)





Just do that simple check and report back....

[GregWeld]

The other issue I'd be looking for is do you have the GM Starter Interlock / SAFETY switch installed (or installed correctly). I think you said you have a column switch - which leads me to think you're trying to use a "factory" style harness and electrical connections.



Here's the neutral safety switch -- it's not going to let you start the car if it's not wired correctly. It should look like this or something similar. Again - you may need to find a wiring diagram specifically for your situation.






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Car%20info/figure6.4.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Car%20info/figure6.4.jpg.html)

[Che70velle]

Great information Greg!

When doing a diagnostic check, as is the case here, I always start at the fuse panel. Turn the key to run, or on position, and with a volt meter (one probe of meter to fuse, the other to a good, clean ground) check BOTH sides of every fuse in the block first. This ensures me that 12 volts is in fact making it to the switches, and then as Greg described above, go from there.

A fuse will usually tell you that you've got problems, meaning mis-wiring, by blowing. If no blown fuses, 99% of the time it is a grounding issue.

[jlwdvm]

Thanks for the great write up Greg! I am hoping to get some garage time today. Here is what I can tell you so far:

The I am using an AAW Power Plus 20 wiring kit.

The Headlights are grounded on each side to a bare metal area on my bumper support. I used dielectric grease at all chassis ground points. The battery is grounded to the frame in the trunk, the motor is grounded to the sub frame, and the rad support is grounded to the sub frame as well. I am also using solid aluminum body mounts.

My head light switch looks like the picture you showed. It has 12 volts going in to it (verified with a test light). It is not attached to anything yet since my fabricated dash is out of the car while I finish up the under dash work (switch not grounded could be a problem?).

I do not have a neutral safety switch wired into the harness, but it is shown in the AAW wiring diagram. I'll have to double check starter wiring. I believe I have the LS starter wire running directly from the starter pig tail to the ignition switch (purple wire).

I have 12 volts to the fuse panel. I checked several open "battery" tabs with my test light. I also tested the auxillary pig tail that AAW places in the harness for misc battery or ignition sources that may be needed with a particular car. I have 12 volts to battery tabs and nothing to ignition source tabs.

[GregWeld]

Thanks for the great write up Greg! I am hoping to get some garage time today. Here is what I can tell you so far:

The I am using an AAW Power Plus 20 wiring kit.

The Headlights are grounded on each side to a bare metal area on my bumper support. I used dielectric grease at all chassis ground points. The battery is grounded to the frame in the trunk, the motor is grounded to the sub frame, and the rad support is grounded to the sub frame as well. I am also using solid aluminum body mounts.

My head light switch looks like the picture you showed. It has 12 volts going in to it (verified with a test light). It is not attached to anything yet since my fabricated dash is out of the car while I finish up the under dash work (switch not grounded could be a problem?).

I do not have a neutral safety switch wired into the harness, but it is shown in the AAW wiring diagram. I'll have to double check starter wiring. I believe I have the LS starter wire running directly from the starter pig tail to the ignition switch (purple wire).

I have 12 volts to the fuse panel. I checked several open "battery" tabs with my test light. I also tested the auxillary pig tail that AAW places in the harness for misc battery or ignition sources that may be needed with a particular car. I have 12 volts to battery tabs and nothing to ignition source tabs.




Okay --- SO that PURPLE ignition wire should have NO POWER to it unless your ignition is in START (spring loaded) position. That small gauge wire just runs to the solenoid to make it engage.... the actual motor gets it's power from the big ass gauge wire from the battery which runs the big starter motor.... (In essence - the starter purple wire is like operating a relay but I don't want to confuse you).

[jlwdvm]

More info:
I dropped the column so I had easy access to the ignition switch.

1. I pulled the purple starter wire so that I could check when it had 12 volts without turning the motor over. The ignition terminal for the purple starter wire has 12 volts as soon as the key is placed into the "run" position...not just when the key is all the way forward into the spring loaded area (like you were trying to start the car). I adjusted the switch all the way forward and backward with no difference ....had 12 volts either way. So if I went to start the car for the first time I would suspect that the starter would keep spinning even after the motor fired.

2. I pulled the pink ignition wire so I could check voltage at various key positions: No voltage at any key position!

3. For giggles I placed the pink ignition wire into the purple wires slot to check the fuel pump. It kicked right on and I was able to flush the fuel line and bleed air...yippy...something worked;)

[dhutton]

More info:
I dropped the column so I had easy access to the ignition switch.

1. I pulled the purple starter wire so that I could check when it had 12 volts without turning the motor over. The ignition terminal for the purple starter wire has 12 volts as soon as the key is placed into the "run" position...not just when the key is all the way forward into the spring loaded area (like you were trying to start the car). I adjusted the switch all the way forward and backward with no difference ....had 12 volts either way. So if I went to start the car for the first time I would suspect that the starter would keep spinning even after the motor fired.

2. I pulled the pink ignition wire so I could check voltage at various key positions: No voltage at any key position!

3. For giggles I placed the pink ignition wire into the purple wires slot to check the fuel pump. It kicked right on and I was able to flush the fuel line and bleed air...yippy...something worked;)

My 64 GTO custom tilt column had a turn signal and emergency flasher wire crossed inside the column. Took me hours to figure it out. Sounds like you might have something similar going on if I am following you correctly.

Don

[GregWeld]

Okay --- are you using a brand new ignition switch?


Do this for me ---

Take your volt ohm meter -- get to continuity mode -- red or black lead on where you THINK the purple starter wire should be - do the other red or black lead to ground - any ground.

Take the power from the battery OFF the ignition - just disconnect it.

What we're searching for is which terminal makes a tone on the volt ohm meter when you turn the key all the way to START. AND the tone goes away when you release the key to "run". NOTE WHICH TERMINAL ON THE SWITCH DOES THIS.

All the other terminals should make continuity (a tone) when in RUN or ACCESSORY.... BUT NOT when in "START".

See if that helps you figure out if it's the ignition switch or your wiring.

[71RS/SS396]

It sounds like you have the wires crossed up on the plugs for steering column. The tilt column and non tilt switches are inverted from each other in regards to the plug orientation on the ignition switch. Did you build the ignition switch connector for your AAW harness?

[jlwdvm]

GMTILT rebuilt my tilt column. I was going to contact him to see if the ignition switch is new. I followed the directions for the plug according to the AAW info for a GM plug. I'll get my multimeter out and get back to everybody this afternoon. Thanks for all the help!

[GregWeld]

It's so hard to think about - then write about - what you'd do if you were trying to diagnose an electrical issue. The things that I'd do automatically if it were me doing the testing... and not being able to see what he's working on.. Just wow. A brain tease.

[Vega$69]

GMTILT rebuilt my tilt column. I was going to contact him to see if the ignition switch is new. I followed the directions for the plug according to the AAW info for a GM plug. I'll get my multimeter out and get back to everybody this afternoon. Thanks for all the help!

In rebuilding the column the switch is installed. The switch does not have any wires. The wires come via the plugs on your AAW harness. Simple plug and play. The purples runs from switch to neutral safety and to starter. It is only energized when key/switch in in start position.

Check the wiring at the starter. In addition to what Greg said you can use the meter set to VDC and with purple disconnected from starter. Red to purple wire black to ground. key on should be zero volts. Key in start position 12v

[jlwdvm]

In rebuilding the column the switch is installed. The switch does not have any wires. The wires come via the plugs on your AAW harness. Simple plug and play. The purples runs from switch to neutral safety and to starter. It is only energized when key/switch in in start position.

Check the wiring at the starter. In addition to what Greg said you can use the meter set to VDC and with purple disconnected from starter. Red to purple wire black to ground. key on should be zero volts. Key in start position 12v

Right, but I removed all but the battery wire from the plug and reinstalled it into the switch. I moved the key into the accessory, ignition, and run positions and had no power to any of the ignition tabs on the switch. Doesn't this localize the problem to the switch? Power isn't getting from the battery side to the ignition side of the switch?

[jlwdvm]

I had time to adjust the ignition switch per the Chilton's Manual today. Not much change. As soon as the key hits run the starter fires up (before the key get into the spring part of the run section). I pulled the purple starter wire from the plug and checked ignition voltage again. I now get ignition voltage when the key is all the way forward against the spring, but no ignition voltage anywhere else.

[dhutton]

Does your AAW wiring diagram show the connector or wire side of the connector? If you get this flipped around your wire connections will be the mirror image of what they should be and could cause the sort of issues you are seeing.

Hope this makes sense.

Don

[jlwdvm]

http://www.americanautowire.com/PDFLink/92964516%20500257%20IN%2010.0.pdf
This is a picture of what I have...the Power Plus 20 ignition plug. I view this diagram as looking at the wire side of the plug, so when it is plugged into the ignition switch the purple and pink wires are all the way to the left. During testing I removed all but the red wire and tested for voltage at various terminals on the plug with the key in various positions.

[dhutton]

According to the photo here the AAW diagram is viewed from the connection side, not the wire side. At least that is my interpretation.

http://www.justanswer.com/chevy/7e2c5-know-ignition-switches-1970-80s-chevy-trucks.html#re.v/510/

Don

[dhutton]

According to the photo here the AAW diagram is viewed from the connection side, not the wire side. At least that is my interpretation.

http://www.justanswer.com/chevy/7e2c5-know-ignition-switches-1970-80s-chevy-trucks.html#re.v/510/

Don

I think this is saying the same thing:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/dg/geer_hed/images/my_jeep/is2.jpg

Don

[jlwdvm]

I'll call AAW today and see what they say. Thanks for the help!

[Vega$69]

Using the multi meter test the switch for continuity is all positions. Off, run, start

Either the switch is bad or the rod from the key to the switch is wrong or not installed correctly. I also think there a differences in them for tilt and non tilt columns

Check this out. It may be your problem

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171005

[71RS/SS396]

I purposely posted this pic upside down since this is how the switch pins will look when mounted on the column and viewed from the passenger side of the column. The white connector shell only has 4 wires, if you place the wires in the shell as marked in the pic you should be good to go. AAW shows a non-tilt switch in their diagrams so the wires are upside down and 180* out from a tilt column switch.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/tmackg71/20160215_101747_2.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/tmackg71/media/20160215_101747_2.jpg.html)

[jlwdvm]

I purposely posted this pic upside down since this is how the switch pins will look when mounted on the column and viewed from the passenger side of the column. The white connector shell only has 4 wires, if you place the wires in the shell as marked in the pic you should be good to go. AAW shows a non-tilt switch in their diagrams so the wires are upside down and 180* out from a tilt column switch.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/tmackg71/20160215_101747_2.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/tmackg71/media/20160215_101747_2.jpg.html)

BINGO! I'll check when I get home today, but I can already tell you that I currently have the pink and purple wires switched.

[Vega$69]

BINGO! I'll check when I get home today, but I can already tell you that I currently have the pink and purple wires switched.

if you have the pink and purple reversed the starter will spin with key in run position.

[jlwdvm]

I flipped the purple and pink wires from their original positions...now the pink is on top and purple is on the bottom. Everything now works as it should! I primed the motor again last night and after checking all my wiring over and removing my primer I spun the motor over to check oil pressure. I was able to get oil pressure up to 40psi after a fair amount of cranking. Motor fire up is nearly upon us!

[JKnight]

Great post Tim, that was clutch.

[GregWeld]

So easy a caveman could do it!!! LOL


Glad you found the problem.

[jlwdvm]

When you hear hoof beats think horses, not zebras...at least that is what they taught us in vet school. Check the easy, more common problems first, then start tearing things apart! Thanks for all the help. Hopefully the motor fires now!