DSE Subframe Press Release with pictures

[XcYZ]

Detroit Speed and Engineering’s all new front subframe is a bolt in replacement for the original stock subframe and improves the handling and ride quality by utilizing DSE’s unique suspension geometry. It is the only subframe in the aftermarket industry with hydroformed frame rails. The hydroformed frame rails feature strength and stiffness, relatively low weight, and precise quality and repeatability. Hydroforming preserves the steel’s strength and stiffness because it is performed at low temperatures, unlike traditional high temperature processes which decrease
material strength.



The subframe utilizes a coilover shock/spring, rack and pinion steering, and splined sway bar. A 10” wide wheel can be packaged and the subframe comes assembled as an entire system. Both main and secondary crossmembers are stamped for structural rigidity. SBC, BBC, and LSX engines have been designed into this subframe.

Detroit Speed and Engineering, Inc. is located in Mooresville, North Carolina. The company provides products and services to transform a vintage muscle car into an all-around versatile vehicle. In addition to design and fabrication services, the company manufactures a line of components to bring muscle cars into the new millennium. Detroit Speed and Engineering, Inc. has been recognized for its engineering and attention to detail. For more information, contact Detroit Speed and Engineering, Inc. at 704-662-3272 or on their website at www.detroitspeed.com.


THE ONLY HYDROFORMED FRAME IN THE AFTERMARKET!

The hydroformed frame features great strength and stiffness, relatively low weight and precise quality by replacing the stamping process.

DSE exclusive suspension geometry for superior ride and handling

Specifically designed with power rack and pinion steering

Utilizes a splined sway bar

Hydroform subframe is a direct bolt-in, decreasing installation time

Accepts SBC, BBC, or LSX engines

Design can accommodate a 10” wide front wheel

Coilover shocks/springs allow spring rate tuning and ride height adjustment

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/hydroform_subframe_3_4.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/hydroform_subframe_back.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/hydroform_subframe_front.jpg

[Blown353]

Very cool, finally an aftermarket subframe that has a beefy enough looking crossmember and doesn't look like it will "fold in" on itself under some weight. A lot of the tubular or partially tubular subframes out there look neat but I bet they're about as strong as a wet noodle.

The UCA angles are a bit out of the ordinary too, looks almost like a 78-87 A/G-body UCA arrangement!

What's the expected street price?

[71Nova]

In person the lower arms looked Longer than stock. upers kind of looked shorter.

[Sparks67]

Very cool, finally an aftermarket subframe that has a beefy enough looking crossmember and doesn't look like it will "fold in" on itself under some weight. A lot of the tubular or partially tubular subframes out there look neat but I bet they're about as strong as a wet noodle.

The UCA angles are a bit out of the ordinary too, looks almost like a 78-87 A/G-body UCA arrangement!

What's the expected street price?


$6700 without brakes.

Jeff

[Reckley]

Just saw the new subframe at Goodguys. It's typical DSE perfection. Kyle and Stacy won the suspension product of the year award and peoples choice for the subframe along with a third award for the rs electric headlight door motors.

Mike

[Roadrage David]

Nice now we need one witch can take the traditional Pontiac injun engine!!!!!!! as usual its all chevy based :thumbsup:

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Saw it in person yesterday at Columbus! This thing is soooooo cool. So many people were just looking at her car and not even noticing that it was in there. That's how well it's engineered and appears to be a stock component! Can't wait to get mine. :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

You have to see the sub in person to actually see the awesome guality piece it is. I know I'm a DSE homey but it is fantastico.

Well deserved award for a great company.

[71Nova]

Another thing cool about it is that it uses headers that were made for the stock sub frame.

[MattG]

I also saw the subframe a Columbus yesterday and is typical DSE quality. Stacy told me they ended up using a C6 corvette spindle because it was so similar to what they had designed it only made sense. Deliveries should be late Aug. or early Sept. and they are taking deposits to secure a place in line.

Ordering mine tomorrow...can't wait :dance:

Matt

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Saw the subframe...Its soooo cool !

-Paul

[Garage Dog 65]

Also checked it out at Columbus GoodGuys. Fantastic engineering and production quality. I can't believe the investment in a hydroform machine ! That's some serious support of the industry !!!!!

Congrats !

[Leadfoot1]

6700$ without brakes :rolleyes: ..... And it looks stock at that.

'Gotta be kidding.

Lead.

Edit;

I guess its just that i adhere a bit more to the thinking reflected here....

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=987&postcount=1

when will the last ounce of performance be used in all those cars? There must be many more "Pro" racers in this world with Camaros then i suspected...

OK, i give it the thumbs up too for the work. (Plus you gotta love hydroforming!) Its the justification i have a hard time finding..... ;)

[lil427z]

ordered mine to day 6700.00 :thumbsup:
rick k

[4mm]

ordered mine to day 6700.00 :thumbsup:
rick k
Very nice, did they give you an estimate on the delivery date?

[lil427z]

late summer.
rick k

[G-Body]

Oh my you guys must have more money than Brains $6,700 large with out BRAKES come onnnn and its stock hell order a Chris alston peice for a fraction way nicer lighter and stronger and looks sweeet, Detroit builds nice stuff but please guys lets face it for the monet theres better places to spend that kind of jack

[Steve1968LS2]

Oh my you guys must have more money than Brains $6,700 large with out BRAKES come onnnn and its stock hell order a Chris alston peice for a fraction way nicer lighter and stronger and looks sweeet, Detroit builds nice stuff but please guys lets face it for the monet theres better places to spend that kind of jack


I like the Chris Alston stuff but what data do you have that shows it's "lighter, stronger" than the DSE unit?

Do you know the weight of the DSE unit? Really, I'm curious...

Also, what about the revised suspension geometry of the DSE unit looks "stock" to you?

[zbugger]

It's not stock. Just looks like it.

[tyoneal]

I sent DSE a long email asking the specifics of the new subframe. $6700 in change is not small by any means, but if it has the goods to go with the good looks, it might not be as expensive as it seems.

In your opinions, what would constitute the optimum bolt in front sub frame other than Free of Charge?

I'm reserving an opinion pending further information.

They have obviously made good business decisions in the past.

It would not make any kind of business sense to build a 24 carat, "Pig in a Poke".

tyoneal

[Stuart Adams]

The DSE sub is like no other, I wish it was 10K.

DSE stuff holds its value, get what you pay for and more.

[mazspeed]

Oh my you guys must have more money than Brains $6,700 large with out BRAKES come onnnn and its stock hell order a Chris alston peice for a fraction way nicer lighter and stronger and looks sweeet, Detroit builds nice stuff but please guys lets face it for the monet theres better places to spend that kind of jack

Must be nice to give out BS advice without knowing anything about it.

I would like to know how good the quality is between a Wayne Due and a 21st subframe.
Those are the 3 that I'm looking at for next year.

[G-Body]

Wow some very interesting comments, but have you gotten your heads out of the clouds and counted the zero's on this product come on and as for the alston peice page 42 of there catalog check it out way nicer peice more modern looking for that kind of money and put a stock looking item in my car come on, plus alstons is $1,900 without a-arms of course but do the math Detroit who you trying to kid hear! http://www.cachassisworks.com/download/catalog_cac_14b_high.pdf

[zbugger]

Just because it looks more modern in your eyes doesn't mean it's got handling in mind. Remeber that Chris Alston's Chassisworks is based more in the drag racing arena. Detroit Speed designed theirs with handling in mind. Yes, it has a stock look to it, but look at how many people opt for that look anyway. Personally, it's a cleaner look than a tube frame. And with the more modern looking suspension components on there, it's bound to be underestimated.

[awr68]

I'll take DSE's new s/f over the Alston frame w/ Mustang II arms anyday!

I can't afford this new setup from DSE for this build, but I am more than proud/happy to have their c/o conversion, uppers, and lowers on my camaro! And maybe just maybe one day I will buy the Wayne Due frame that all my parts will bolt onto...

BTW, I'd much rather have my current DSE setup than that Alston frame...but to each his own! :D

[jonny51]

Wow some very interesting comments, but have you gotten your heads out of the clouds and counted the zero's on this product come on and as for the alston peice page 42 of there catalog check it out way nicer peice more modern looking for that kind of money and put a stock looking item in my car come on, plus alstons is $1,900 without a-arms of course but do the math Detroit who you trying to kid hear! http://www.cachassisworks.com/download/catalog_cac_14b_high.pdf


If you do not like the price don't buy it.I wouldn't worry about how somebody else spends there money.

[71Nova]

The Chris Alston frame only has one crossmember. The DSE has one big beefy crossmember that looks stronger than the aston's only crossmember and then also has another one in front of the rack and pinion! Mustang 2 suspension sucks compared to the susp on the DSE

[Steve1968LS2]

Wow some very interesting comments, but have you gotten your heads out of the clouds and counted the zero's on this product come on and as for the alston peice page 42 of there catalog check it out way nicer peice more modern looking for that kind of money and put a stock looking item in my car come on, plus alstons is $1,900 without a-arms of course but do the math Detroit who you trying to kid hear! http://www.cachassisworks.com/download/catalog_cac_14b_high.pdf

Wow, why don't you answer my post instead of spewing more nonsense.. What do you know of the geometry differences between the two? What's the weight difference between the two?

Do you think that because that it's more modern "looking" that it's somehow better based on it's looks?

Last I checked $6700 had the same amount of zeros as $1900.. :rofl:

In case you missed it.. my previous post:
I like the Chris Alston stuff but what data do you have that shows it's "lighter, stronger" than the DSE unit?

Do you know the weight of the DSE unit? Really, I'm curious...

Also, what about the revised suspension geometry of the DSE unit looks "stock" to you?

[71Nova]

The only thing better about the Alston is the price, and maybe weight, but minimal.

[G-Body]

AWR68 makes a great point " he cant afford it" well most could not at that price! and again not that these guys arent doing there job indeed it is a great peice, and sure people will always spend money on things that seem cool because there new! "Jonny 51" but dollar for dollar and product for product even in a high horsepower good looking show car! alston is still the way to go! again my opion and if i was spending my hard earned jack it would not be on a $7,000 Half a frame hell you could have a complete tube chassis built or than again order that better looking and better all around frame from alston and still have enough left over almost to bye those fancy fikse wheels that only make 4 styles in lol Boys there are other awesome products out there but props goes to Detroit for the effort and they may rob a few of you folks sounds like it got a few suckers already good luck

[zbugger]

AWR68 makes a great point " he cant afford it" well most could not at that price! and again not that these guys arent doing there job indeed it is a great peice, and sure people will always spend money on things that seem cool because there new! "Jonny 51" but dollar for dollar and product for product even in a high horsepower good looking show car! alston is still the way to go! again my opion and if i was spending my hard earned jack it would not be on a $7,000 Half a frame hell you could have a complete tube chassis built or than again order that better looking and better all around frame from alston and still have enough left over almost to bye those fancy fikse wheels that only make 4 styles in lol Boys there are other awesome products out there but props goes to Detroit for the effort and they may rob a few of you folks sounds like it got a few suckers already good luck

And on that note, I can't be nice for long. Reading your post gave me a headache. Besides being biased towards Alston's product because you think it looks better, it was damn near incoherent. Open an english book and learn some proper punctuation.

Anyway, I'd rather have performance over looks. I KNOW the Alston sub doesn't compare to the DSE frame. F**k it. Guys, we're talking to a wall. I'm gonna go drink some gasoline.

[mazspeed]

AWR68 makes a great point " he cant afford it" well most could not at that price! and again not that these guys arent doing there job indeed it is a great peice, and sure people will always spend money on things that seem cool because there new! "Jonny 51" but dollar for dollar and product for product even in a high horsepower good looking show car! alston is still the way to go! again my opion and if i was spending my hard earned jack it would not be on a $7,000 Half a frame hell you could have a complete tube chassis built or than again order that better looking and better all around frame from alston and still have enough left over almost to bye those fancy fikse wheels that only make 4 styles in lol Boys there are other awesome products out there but props goes to Detroit for the effort and they may rob a few of you folks sounds like it got a few suckers already good luck

I have a hard time thinking that you will be around long with your attitude. You like Alston's stuff, good for you. Some of us can afford a better subframe. Maybe you can't and you have to defend yourself on your purchase and by trashing something you have no clue on. You are the worse kind of person, spewing crap for which you have no idea what it is you're talking about. It’s my “opinion” that you’re an idiot. I know, let's have a spelling contest? "Doc Holliday"


Sparky 67. Thanks for the great info. Much appreciated.

[EFI]

If you do not like the price don't buy it.I wouldn't worry about how somebody else spends there money.

I agree with Jonny51.

When I first saw DSE had a hydroformed sub frame my first thought was - Holy smokes! Those DSE guys have put some serious R&D and money into designing and making that piece.

I won't talk out of my backside about the geometry of either sub frame - Alston's or DSE's, because I don't know the differences. But, I do know this - hydroforming machines cost a small fortune, and Hydroformed parts are stronger and weigh less due to structural integrity and fewer welds or add-on pieces.

Lastly, as soon as I have $6700 in my pocket, I'll be joining the others who have placed their orders for one of those DSE sub frames.

[Leadfoot1]

Wow!

This thread is getting a bit hot.....

I personnally don't think screaming each other names will get us anywhere...

But as i posted at the beginning, i wonder how many of you guy's could really tell the handling difference in your car, on the street, without knowing what subframe is in it? Come on! Put a (Alston if you will) and then swap a DSE unit in it and tell me which one handles better.....I'd really like to see that.

No numbers...Feeling. If its gonna make a difference, YOU GOTTA KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE. (and you've all seen the ones i'm talking about on the street!)

I know some might like to put in the latest speed parts because it 'Sounds' or looks killer and they can brag about it at the next show. But most don't have a clue what t f they are talking about.

Then again....Johny51 say's it best. (To each its own!!! :hail: )

But i tought this was a "DISCUSSION" forum....

Hope my puctuation was not too bad. (I'm french primarily) ;)


Lead.
See, to me the important issue is how wide a rubber i can fit under any corner!!!

[XcYZ]

So G-body, do you get a commission at Chris Alston? lol The way you're carrying on makes it sound like the people interested in the DSE unit are taking money out of your pocket.

Whatever the case, freedom of choice is why this country is so great. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's just that simple.

[Steve1968LS2]

AWR68 makes a great point " he cant afford it" well most could not at that price! and again not that these guys arent doing there job indeed it is a great peice, and sure people will always spend money on things that seem cool because there new! "Jonny 51" but dollar for dollar and product for product even in a high horsepower good looking show car! alston is still the way to go! again my opion and if i was spending my hard earned jack it would not be on a $7,000 Half a frame hell you could have a complete tube chassis built or than again order that better looking and better all around frame from alston and still have enough left over almost to bye those fancy fikse wheels that only make 4 styles in lol Boys there are other awesome products out there but props goes to Detroit for the effort and they may rob a few of you folks sounds like it got a few suckers already good luck

Mod Edit..

Since you refuse to answer my questions about what data you have about the two subframes I will just assume you are trolling. I have a feeling that you really don't know much of anything about either part besides price.

Just going on and on and on how one product is better than the other only based on price and the fact you think one "looks" better (the only two data pieces you present) is useless. It's almost like your a Alston employee, except I know Chris and he has WAY WAY too much class for that.

And for the record I am running a 21st Century Frame and Alston shocks, so I really don't have a dog in the DSE fight.. I just find your posts annoying and repetative. If you can't give any data I will "prune" future posts in this thread..

[Sales@Dutchboys]

LOL .........This is getting funny......Im here to back DSE......If you cant afford it then dont by it.....Dont sit their and complain about it.....does anyone remember the BIG Debate about billet Hindges....Same thing....They are bad A$$ .......Thats why they are expensive....Same with the subframe ....Its Bad A$$......I think some of you will get what i am trying to get at here.........


-Paul

[G-Body]

Wow I step away for a few hours and you guys make a mountain out of an aunt hill! no i dont work for alston and nor do i care, But my point is. unless you are reading other than you want to read out of all this, there is other products out there, and i havent bashed Detroit i have said they make a great peice just not for the money and it hasnt been out long enough to prove my point different as of yet anyone can type how good there product is, time will tell its a great idea but a good point was made by "leadfoot1" with normal street drving you are not going to notice that much of a difference, and with that said your out of $6,700 Jack compared to a better looking and "Probably" handling peice time will tell but for the money and from what i'm reading dont think the money would be justified also were not even talking about the other frames. Ones that you have mention and even the total cost unit that is made, they make a great tubular peice so to each his own, and as for me, Money is not a problem, Being smart enough to make good purchases is.

[Leadfoot1]

...I looked at DSE's website and could not find any specs regarding suspension geometry...Aside from the introduction at the beginning of this thread, what do we have to work with so we can compare?

Steeve, please don't lock up this thread i'd really like to see the end results!

I understand nobody has the same budget. But i tend to share a bit of this "Too expensiveness" from DSE. I posted a thread once about their 4 point cage selling for 650$ ( :wow: ) when you can get an SnW or Comp 10 point (very nice products that can compare in every way) for 200$....This is kinda ridiculous don't you think? I mean, even if you have the dough, at some point, it becomes a thing of the inflatable neighbourgh....No?

Lead.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Their is no specs because ...........IT JUST CAME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Paul

[Stuart Adams]

For all the research and costs involved in bringing this piece to the public, trust me 6700 is a bargain. You will never loose on it.

G- Body, try and work on some grammar and spelling. Its hard reading your posts, that is the least you can do.

So many people look at the price, if you bought something for 30 K that was quality and engineered well and sold it for 30K you come out even. If you spent 20K for non quality and sold it for 10K then you lost 10K, but only spent 20K. Simple economics, look at value big boy!

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Thank you Stuart!!!

[G-Body]

Great point! finally someone gets it, http://www.cachassisworks.com/download/catalog_cac_vol14_71-105.pdf
heres the info. You know what this just may be all for nothin the good points made from both ends, When Detroit only sells a small amount of these "GREAT" frames at that number, besides im sure its not cheap to have too pay for a machine that hydroforms, lol and when they sell less than expected you guys that have bought them for that price will feel a little silly when a year or two later there selling them there or on ebay for a couple grand :rofl:cant wait to see how Detroit frame performs with some real power sitting in its saddle!

[mazspeed]

Money is not a problem, Being smart enough to make good purchases is.


If money is not a problem, then why bash on something you don't know anything about? Just because you don't have the money and others do, doesn't mean that the product you think is best is. Fact is, you really don't have a clue on what you're talking about. You should research Corvette geometry and Mustang 2 geometry. It's a world of difference, and this is one reason why your argument carries no weight. This I can say. The Detroit piece is far superior in construction due to the hydroforming, corvette style geometry, and build quality then an Alston piece. Yes it's going to handle better, and be stronger. This is why this frame is more expensive, but I'm sure you didn't know this already. You really should know your facts before you open your piehole and call it and us suckers for buying the product.

[Steve1968LS2]

Wow I step away for a few hours and you guys make a mountain out of an aunt hill! no i dont work for alston and nor do i care, But my point is. unless you are reading other than you want to read out of all this, there is other products out there, and i havent bashed Detroit i have said they make a great peice just not for the money and it hasnt been out long enough to prove my point different as of yet anyone can type how good there product is, time will tell its a great idea but a good point was made by "leadfoot1" with normal street drving you are not going to notice that much of a difference, and with that said your out of $6,700 Jack compared to a better looking and "Probably" handling peice time will tell but for the money and from what i'm reading dont think the money would be justified also were not even talking about the other frames. Ones that you have mention and even the total cost unit that is made, they make a great tubular peice so to each his own, and as for me, Money is not a problem, Being smart enough to make good purchases is.

Once again you failed to answer my questions which leads me to believe you really don't know what you are talking about..

I guess to be blunt you're just talking out your ass and have zero data to back up your claims :yes:

[Sales@Dutchboys]

What did DSE ever do to you man?

[G-Body]

Steve what do you wish to know

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Also....If you ever had any contact with kyle in person....This guy knows what the hell he it talking about...that subframe probuly would out handle anything you could come up with....he aint no dummy......

-Paul

[mazspeed]

Steve what do you wish to know
Do you not read his posts? :willy:

[Steve1968LS2]

...I looked at DSE's website and could not find any specs regarding suspension geometry...Aside from the introduction at the beginning of this thread, what do we have to work with so we can compare?

Steeve, please don't lock up this thread i'd really like to see the end results!

I understand nobody has the same budget. But i tend to share a bit of this "Too expensiveness" from DSE. I posted a thread once about their 4 point cage selling for 650$ ( :wow: ) when you can get an SnW or Comp 10 point (very nice products that can compare in every way) for 200$....This is kinda ridiculous don't you think? I mean, even if you have the dough, at some point, it becomes a thing of the inflatable neighbourgh....No?

Lead.

I won't lock it.. I'm just annoyed when people jabber on and make stupid statments based on "feelings".. if you are gonna say XYZ is better the ABC then how about a reason other than "it's cheaper" and "it looks better"..

I also stepped in on another site when someone proclaimed the DSE sub as "the best one on the market".. that was a silly statement since we don't know much about it yet. DSE has all the data and I'm sure at some point they will share what they can. Hell, the product was just introduced last weekend.

Lead, price is a funny thing.. on one hand you have a Seiko watch for $20.. it tells you the time and maybe even the date.. so why is a Rolex watch $3000? It does the same function. The difference is in quality and there are people in the world willing to pay more for higher quality item that does roughly the same thing. The DSE roll bar fits better than a SW unit and has a few more features that people are willing to spend the extra cash for. Does it do the same thing as the SW cage? yep.. Is it higher quality? yep.. and people with the cash are willing to spend it on products that are just a little bit better than the less expensive stuff. It's why people spend $300,000 on a Ferrari when a $70,000 Z06 would kick it's ass..

[MarkM66]

Why would anyone buy a Mercedes when they could just buy a Chevy Cobalt? They both have four rubber tires that touch the ground.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve what do you wish to know

:lol:

Here.. let me ask it a THIRD time..

You said:
Oh my you guys must have more money than Brains $6,700 large with out BRAKES come onnnn and its stock hell order a Chris alston peice for a fraction way nicer lighter and stronger and looks sweeet, Detroit builds nice stuff but please guys lets face it for the monet theres better places to spend that kind of jack

And I asked:
I like the Chris Alston stuff but what data do you have that shows it's "lighter, stronger" than the DSE unit?

Do you know the weight of the DSE unit? Really, I'm curious...

Also, what about the revised suspension geometry of the DSE unit looks "stock" to you?

So, do you know the weight of the complete Alston sub? Do you know the weight of the complete DSE sub? Are you just guessing?

Do you have engineering data to show the Alston frame is stronger than the DSE frame? Do you have any geometry data on the DSE frame to show that it's "stock"? Is the stock subframe designed to accomodate a rack and pinion system? Is it designed to accomodate coil over shocks? If not then how can you call the DSE frame stock with a straight face?

If you don't like it or think it's too expensive then don't buy it.. a simple concept than you seem unable to grasp. Stop trying so hard to control other peoples finances. :lol:

[G-Body]

Steve lets see some performance numbers in a car some track times etc. than well talk alston and the other builders have proven what there products can do art morrison total cost etc. Then we see how worth the money this fine peice of nasa product is lol, oh yeah steve you seem to be a great speller its........ well hell hears the links just incase you cant spell!http://www.cachassisworks.com/http://www.artmorrison.com/index.cfmhttp://www.totalcostinvolved.com/

[Leadfoot1]

Their is no specs because ...........IT JUST CAME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Paul

Ok,

This is exactly what i needed.

So we don't have any specs....Anyone else???

That s exactly reflects the feeling i have, everybody gets all excited because its a DSE part (not to discredit it ok) without even knowing (make that understanding...) what it can bring you!!!

If they start building bridges...'will you all be in line?

Guy's...To all of you in this post let me know PLEASE; Who races their car seriously ???

Come on! Tell me why you NEED this part, what's it gonna change? Except you'll have the 'Latest' toy and less dough in your pockets.

I for one don't race (not professionnally or seriously i'm into street cars)

Lead.

[G-Body]

Thanks Leadfoot1 on that note nothin more is to be said :rofl:

[EFI]

Money is not a problem, Being smart enough to make good purchases is.

Huh!?

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve lets see some performance numbers in a car some track times etc. than well talk alston and the other builders have proven what there products can do art morrison total cost etc. Then we se how worth the money this fine peice of nasa product is lol, oh yeah steve you seem to be a great speller its well hell hears the links just incase you cant spell!http://www.cachassisworks.com/http://www.artmorrison.com/index.cfmhttp://www.totalcostinvolved.com/

I didn't make fun of your spelling so you must not really read the other comments very well.. where is that :fu: smilie??

So, what you are saying is that you really don't know **** as far as specs or weights of either subframe and in fact you were just rambling nonsense? (bolded since you seem to have an A.D.D. issue)

Gee, the sub came out on Saturday.. I guess they have had a whole 5 days to "show what thier product can do".. lol..

[Steve1968LS2]

Ok,

This is exactly what i needed.

So we don't have any specs....Anyone else???

That s exactly reflects the feeling i have, everybody gets all excited because its a DSE part (not to discredit it ok) without even knowing (make that understanding...) what it can bring you!!!

If they start building bridges...'will you all be in line?

Guy's...To all of you in this post let me know PLEASE; Who races their car seriously ???

Come on! Tell me why you NEED this part, what's it gonna change? Except you'll have the 'Latest' toy and less dough in your pockets.

I for one don't race (not professionnally or seriously i'm into street cars)

Lead.

Who cares who races? Does every person that buys a new Z06 need to be a race car driver to appreciate the engineering and handling of the car?

I don't see why is wrong for people to be excited about a new part and OPTOMISTIC about it's potential. Time will tell if it's a good part or not :shrug:

Dismissing it out of hand is as stupid as declaring it the best in the world.

Please go back and read my Rolex analogy.. some people just want to buy the highest quality stuff they can get. I don't know why this is a tough concept.

[Stuart Adams]

G-Body, it really shows no class when you say the things you have been saying. Get in your pinto and ride out of here, comments on both sides of the fence are always a good thing, but yours are just immature and stupid.

[Leadfoot1]

I won't lock it.. I'm just annoyed when people jabber on and make stupid statments based on "feelings"...

I could not agree more.

But at this point, if i understand correctly, all we have on this new product...ARE feelings.

I was typing in the timeframe you posted your last post....This is going fast!

About my racing point. Its just to see if anyone who talks about "Performance" parts know wtf they are talking about. But in the end it still comes down to the driver.

Its ok to want the part just because its (sounds) hot. Just don't (did not read it from you) praise it before you know what it is...Or just because its from a dedicated company. Come on. I can,t understand that...Maybe i'm too poor... :lol:

Lead.

[Leadfoot1]

Dismissing it out of hand is as stupid as declaring it the best in the world.

.

'Guess thats the end....

Lead.

[XcYZ]

Steve, the Rolex analogy was a good one.

Years of R&D went into this product and that doesn't happen for free.

[Sales@Dutchboys]

Ive gotta go work on my car......If I stay on here im never going to get off and going to get pissed....

-Paul

[Steve1968LS2]

I could not agree more.

But at this point, if i understand correctly, all we have on this new product...ARE feelings.



Just for the record.. my posts weren't directed at you.. :)

Yea.. but FEELING like it's too expensive is one thing.. declaring that another subframe is "lighter" and "stronger" and has "better geometry" when that person has zero idea of the data is just lame. Just as lame as saying this frame is the best in the world based on "feelings"

Dig?

[EFI]

Come on! Tell me why you NEED this part, what's it gonna change? Except you'll have the 'Latest' toy and less dough in your pockets.



I don't need this part, but I want it, and here's my reason why -
I'm building a PT car.
And I'm building a PT car cuz I love the looks of the early camaro, firebird, nova, chevelle, cuda and others. But, with a stock front-end most of them handle like either a shopping cart or a tour bus.
I want the best of both worlds; the looks of a early muscle car and the handling of a modern day vette.

- Dan

[Steve1968LS2]

Its ok to want the part just because its (sounds) hot. Just don't (did not read it from you) praise it before you know what it is...Or just because its from a dedicated company. Come on. I can,t understand that...Maybe i'm too poor... :lol:

Lead.

I praise it for what it is a this point.. a promising new product turned out by a company known for quality. I praise DSE for spending a boatload of $$$ trying to come out with a product "different" for the other ones on the market and for trying new innovative ideas.

I never said it was "better" or "worse" than any other aftermarket subframe because I have no idea if is. :captain:

[Leadfoot1]

I praise it for what it is a this point.. a promising new product turned out by a company known for quality. I praise DSE for spending a boatload of $$$ trying to come out with a product "different" for the other ones on the market and for trying new innovative ideas.

I never said it was "better" or "worse" than any other aftermarket subframe because I have no idea if is. :captain:


Exactly why i wrote i did not read it from you :)

This is ending nicely... i think.

Ok now, how about we wait and see who gets one first!!!

Thanks to all for their comments. I had fun!

'gotta work too...


Lead.

[Stuart Adams]

Kyle has had one on their test car for a while now and has put some miles on it, they actually drove it to Columbus also. His comments are very positive, he is very picky, if he likes it, it will definately work for me.

Yes he sells them but he would not if it was not good, final answer.

[Reckley]

Kyle has had one on their test car for a while now and has put some miles on it, they actually drove it to Columbus also. His comments are very positive, he is very picky, if he likes it, it will definately work for me.



I was also at the Columbus GG and saw their test car. Don't know why but, I love that car.

I questioned Frank (DSE) on how good the fit was. He said they pulled the motor, supported the body and dropped the stock subframe then installed the new subframe. He said there was no need to remove any panels and very little alignment was needed.

When I talked to Kyle he said his goal was a stock look and true bolt in. Guess he achieved his goal.

Once I can afford it, I will buy one. Those of you who disagree with the price need to see it live. In my opinon, It's one the best aftermarket products available. You can tell a lot of thought went into the design.

Mike

[Sales@Dutchboys]

I agree......Once you see it in person your like WOW...


-Paul

[Reckley]

I almost forgot. Kyle said the frame allows a 10 inch wide tire without modifing the inner fender. I thought that was pretty sweet. :thumbsup:Mike

[Stuart Adams]

10" tire up front is real cool, especially when you make a turn and it turns freely without binding or hitting the sub frame. My WD sub in the Aluminator always hit the sway bar with sharp turns, not good for drive thru's. LOL.

[murtah]

If you are like myself and want a rack on your sub (because you just like racks), I think you only have the high end models (DSE, 21st, WD) to consider.

I know Alston has a rack, but it has dated technology and a rear mount sway bar that they don't see a need to offer an option on. Most annoyingly, a list of proprietary crossmembers for everything but a T-56. I don't think the Foose Camaros are running them anymore, they mention a "tubular" sub frame in their new literature. I have also read some unflattering comments about flex from a pro builder on Martz frames.

I think there is an opportunity for WD's "new" frame that accepts the DSE conversion stuff, plus a rack in the sub market based on price. I figure that if WD markets his frame for around 2500-2600 with rack and sway bar, it would sell pretty good. Add in 1850 for the DSE stuff and 6-650 for some AFX spindles, you could have a DSE spec, Modified stock sub WITH a rack for 5-5200 w/out brakes? Oh, and fix the single point shear mounts on the back LCAs. How about it WD? Time to update the ol website.

I have been bitching and moaning about the price of DSE's sub, but I would like to eventually buy one after my next deployment. Kyle did mention the possibility of the sub's price increasing if it is very popular. I hope this doesn't happen in the next 6 months or so. I wish they had a lay away plan! :unibrow:

[zbugger]

Those of you who want real numbers, get in line. I think most of us do. Do I race? No. Do I drive like I'm racing? Pretty damn often. Will I feel the difference between the stock geometry and the new subrame's geometry? It's likely I won't, but I WILL notice the better steering response, feedback, and other little things. A friend of mine didn't think he could make his Z06 handle any better. Now he thinks the T-1 sway bars he put on the car are god. You can tell the difference if you drive the car hard enough, and he regularly goes in the local hills and races motorcycles. Yeah, he leaves a few of them in the turns.

Now, if you want to see it in person you're going to have to make a little trip. Go to the Pro-Touring.com "Run Through the Hills" sponsored by MuscleRides.com. (sorry for the advertising Scott) Kyle and Stacey will be there with the blue "test" car and will be putting the front subframe through the paces. You'll witness what it can do, and you'll get input directly from the people who put it out. They had the car on the Power Tour and it apparently performed admirably. Make your decisions after they throw it around some cones and cruise the hills in it.

[Stuart Adams]

What other company is out testing their stuff on real cars with potential lay buyers watching, pretty cool.

[Nutsy]

So just as a confirmation the $6700 includes the rack, shocks (coil-overs), spindles, sway bar etc? everything minus the brakes? What kind (brand, model, type) of components does it have other than C6 spindles? Are they all proprietary one offs? or any off the shelf pieces?

Trev

[Steve1968LS2]

What other company is out testing their stuff on real cars with potential lay buyers watching, pretty cool.

Well, XV Motorsports will be there (the Mopar guys) and Air Ride Technologies will be trashing the course as well. Should be VERY interesting..

[Stuart Adams]

Sounds fun, what are the dates.

[Steve1968LS2]

Sounds fun, what are the dates.

Sept 15-17th.. in Pigeon Forge TN.. should be a blast. Some nice cars will be there including the newly crowned Street Machine of the Year..

[Stuart Adams]

Speaking of prices, I spent $10 for one small slice of cardboard with 2 pepperoni's on it and a medium lemonade at GG Columbus!! LOL. Heck auto parts seem half off compared to the food at these events!!LOL.

[Reckley]

I'm with you Stuart. I blew about $60 in junk food over the GG Columbus weekend.

[Ummgawa]

If you are like myself and want a rack on your sub (because you just like racks), quoted by Murtah...




I like racks, big racks. :D

[victionone]

DSE has suspension geometry numbers on their website. I'm still curious on weight tho...

http://www.detroitspeed.com/Product%20Pages/subframe.htm

Anyone here know what they are looking at?

[Steve1968LS2]

DSE has suspension geometry numbers on their website. I'm still curious on weight tho...

http://www.detroitspeed.com/Product%20Pages/subframe.htm

Anyone here know what they are looking at?

DSE SUBFRAME SPECIFICATIONS

NOMINAL CAMBER

- 0.5°


NOMINAL CASTER

+ 4.5° (ADJUSTABLE TO 5.5°)


TOTAL SUSPENSION TRAVEL

4.0"


TOTAL BUMPSTEER, 30" TOE-SPAN

0.070" OVER 4" OF TRAVEL


TURNING ANGLE ( 18"x10" OR 17"x9" WHEELS )

30.0°


ACKERMAN ANGLE ( 18"x10" OR 17"x9" WHEELS )

2.5°


TURNING ANGLE ( 18"x9" WHEELS )

33.8°


ACKERMAN ANGLE ( 18"x9" WHEELS )

3.5°


Ok, time for the experts to sort that out :)

[murtah]

Did anyone mention what trans x-member the sub is drilled for in the pictures? Sort of looks like ATS. Obviously they give you the option of using anything a stock frame could use, I was just wondering who they had in mind with those pre-drilled holes.

I wonder if a LSX motor with the a/c compressor in it's stock location would work? I never did like mounting it up high.

[Leadfoot1]

DSE SUBFRAME SPECIFICATIONS


Ok, time for the experts to sort that out :)


Well....I know that 18" x 10" means an 18" Diameter by 10" wide wheel :lol:

Lead.

[4mm]

I wonder if a LSX motor with the a/c compressor in it's stock location would work? I never did like mounting it up high.
I called and asked Stacy, she said they never tested for that and they could not give a definite answer. They tested an LSx with the Vintage Air bracket setup. I would be better for me if it fit in the stock location, I prefer to use stock brackets at their stock location.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Did anyone mention what trans x-member the sub is drilled for in the pictures? Sort of looks like ATS. Obviously they give you the option of using anything a stock frame could use, I was just wondering who they had in mind with those pre-drilled holes.

It was designed after factory. So is our mounting brackets, which is why it looks similar. Our T56 crossmember will bolt right up to that frame.

Tyler

[murtah]

Tyler,
I was checking out your new site yesterday, A lot better than the old one. Will your NEW t-56 crossmember work on the DSE sub? it seems it has more clearance (that your older one) for exhaust and I like the adjustability. I couldn't tell because my piece o' sh*t government computer wouldn't let me open the pdf file.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Yes, it should bolt right up to the DSE frame. The adjustablility is designed for the different T56 variants, and engine combos. Load the .pdf when you get home to see it up close.

Tyler

[JamesJ]

OK The numbers are out and not a person can say anything? Come on loud mouths... :D

[Teetoe_Jones]

Give me a day or so. We have had our camber/caster/bumpsteer graphs in lockdown mode for some time, but after seeing DSE post up for all to see, I think we shall follow suit.

Bonus is that we started from a bunch of the same initial settings, so we can do a side by side comparison of the DSE frame to a AFX spindle.

You people are going to be shocked for sure.

Tyler

[Leadfoot1]

SHOCK AWAY TYLER!!!!!!!

I'm all for learning and understanding....Building these cars is nice, but so simple these days with the many bolt on and all work done for you.

I guess the less we can do is do these products justice and undestand their function and differences. (unless of course your full o cash and just don't care...Which is still ok... :lol: )

That way, we can make intelligent choices too, one not only founded on the "name brand" part.

Looking forward to seeing the comparo!

Lead.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Before I get lit on fire for my 'shocked' comment let me say this disclaimer-

This is NOT going to be a direct apples to apples comparison. It can never be that cut and dry, but I can give out the same geometry graphs and numbers with the same initial settings.

Tyler

[Leadfoot1]

I hear ya,

:fire: (Knew i had seen this somewhere... :D )

Lets just put a bit of light on that subject. (for everyone's benefit i guess since no one speaks up of the numbers...)


' Lead.

[Ummgawa]

Give me a day or so. We have had our camber/caster/bumpsteer graphs in lockdown mode for some time, but after seeing DSE post up for all to see, I think we shall follow suit.

Bonus is that we started from a bunch of the same initial settings, so we can do a side by side comparison of the DSE frame to a AFX spindle.

You people are going to be shocked for sure.

Tyler

Tyler

Am I reading you correctly in that you can equal the same geometry numbers with the AFX spindle vs. the entire DSE sub frame set-up? Please continue, I am very interested and have my check book ready to purchase the next round of your spindle if this is so. I do not have the intimate knowledge you folks have but am willing to purchase your knowledge and brag about it like I know what the Hell I am talking about. I fear that most of the numbers and advantages that each product offers will never be realized in true form as most posers will never twist their PT ride to those extremes. I am planning to run mine like it was a rental car.

I did read your disclaimer from the following post but I still am interested in your numbers.

[Stuart Adams]

I would be very interested in the stress testing that was put into the AFX spindle also. GM puts alot of testing in their spindle and had problems with breakage in the past that caused projects to be shut down until fixed.

[Jr]

Someone will put these numbers into simple terms, right...

Major props to DSE and ATS for going public with their numbers...
This act takes a major set of balls!! :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Maybe the DSE sibframe with Tyler's spindles is the magic combination. :unibrow: :D :unibrow: :D

[Mean 69]

I am impressed also to see DSE put down the hard data, they really hadn't done that in the past. Disclaimer: as if there aren't enough fish in the front suspension sea already, we at Lateral Dynamics are also developing front solutions, clearly ATS has a head start on us, and DSE's new release beats us out too. Anyway, for a small company like ours, it is really hard to compete against advertising dollars that the big incumbent companies have, so we for certain welcome this.

Keep in mind, the numbers posted are important, but in and of themselves, they don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't expect any company, ATS or DSE included, to give "all" of the data out, there still has to be some proprietary secrets, or design theft would follow (not like it hasn't for DSE and Global anyway).

For some of the info listed, here's what it means:

Bump steer: Most folks know this, but this is the toe tendancy of a suspension system through the suspension travel, i.e. when the suspension moves up and down, this is what the toe angle of the wheel is doing. Less is better.

Ackerman: There's a principle named after the dude, Ackerman, that deals with the angle of each of the front wheels through a turn. If you look at the car from above, for instance, in a tight turn, the inside wheel ideally (i.e. on paper) needs to turn in a tighter arc, because it has less distance to travel than the outside tire. "Pure" Ackerman bascially states that the inside tire follows the ideal line relative to the outside tire in a given turn, obviously depends upon track width, and wheelbase. In the real world, you will get as many opinions on this as you will on who makes the best pizza in Chicago, there is no "right" answer. Things that come into play include the behavior of the tires (i.e. slip angles, which with modern tires is far less than it had been in the past), weight transfer (in a turn, the inside tire carries very little loading, so one argument is that "ackerman doen't matter as much at speed), and other goodies such as alignment settings.

Caster change: If you look at the line intersecting the upper and lower ball joint, you'll see that on virtually every car today there is a tilt, the top is further back on the car than the bottom ball joint. This angle is called the caster angle, and has a profound effect on a lot of dynamic behaviors. There's a graph that shows the change as a function of suspension travel, this is because the upper arm on an SLA suspension system (Short-Long-Arm, i.e. double wishbone) is shorter than the lower, so when the supension moves, the caster angle must change. Lots of arguments on what's good here, because it is coupled to several other aspects of the overall suspension and steering system.

Camber Gain: Seemingly everyone's favorite buzzword on front suspension, in reality is but one of the many things that need to be managed simultaneously in an effective system, but the early F Body cars had such poor camber characteristics, that improving this aspect has a profound improvement on the handling of the car when used with today's far superior tires. This is another one where you will get a huge number of opinions, because it is not well understood by many people, and also that it too is not independent, it is directly coupled to many other aspects of the overall suspension system. Further, virtually ALL camber gain data is taken with the wheels pointed straight ahead, but the last time I looked, you really kind of need to know what's happening when you TURN the car, because that's where you need to benefit of this aspect. Still, this is one piece of data where you CAN compare system to system, provided the data was collected properly, which is straight forward.

Again, to stress that we are in this business too, my "opinion" is that there are other factors that are equally as important, more important in fact that go into a good system. Also, I am not suggesting for a second that I would expect/demand, that any of the suppliers out there publish this, it's not any more confidential than the stuff listed, but I want to make sure I don't piss anyone off by saying this. Folks can get so sensitive. Anyway, a few other parameters that are important/interesting to look at is the roll center height and behavior (i.e dynamically), the scrub radius, side scrubbing behavior, and some others.

Some folks love data, some hate it and just want to feel good about things. We tend towards the "love data" end of things, so it is really nice to see some hard numbers for once. Very welcome in my eyes.

Mark

[Teetoe_Jones]

Maybe the DSE sibframe with Tyler's spindles is the magic combination. :unibrow: :D :unibrow: :D

That will not be a possibility due to the design of the Corvette upright on the DSE sub. Our spindle cannot bolt to the upper control arm with the current config that is on the frame due to the inverted upper ball joint. Maybe DSE will make a provision for our AFX spindle? Can't hurt to hope...

I would be very interested in the stress testing that was put into the AFX spindle also. GM puts alot of testing in their spindle and had problems with breakage in the past that caused projects to be shut down until fixed.

Stuart-

We did lots of engineering, FEA, and actual physical destructive testing on our spindles. I can say that without a doubt they are stronger than the C5/C6 spindle by quite a bit. The C6 spindle is a pressure casting from A356-T6 aluminum vs our forging in 6061-T6 aircraft grade aluminum. I'm going to save my typing fingers, and cut and paste a response toa Chevelles.com thread where people questioned our spindle:

Here is the link to the thread:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106839&highlight=ATs

Here is the response that Shane wrote:

Alright guys I'll try and layout our design process for these spindles based on your inquiries and concerns. First let me state that yes it is extremely expensive (especially for a two man team) to replicate all the tests that parts have to endure in the OE's, but we have tried to cover all the aspects of the test and design phases to our capabilities by contacting multiple engineers in GM, other suspension engineers, and different vendors involved in designing the C5 knuckle in order to achieve these goals.

In the initial stages we fabricated a test spindle much like the Stielow spindle but utilizing a C5 bearing cartridge and an adjustable steer arm. We acquired control arms from Global West, DSE, and Speetech and did camber curves, caster curves, plotted pivot points, in both the stock location and gulstrand location for both the AFX spindle and stock spindle. This was done to know our baselines and to be able to tell the customer how our spindle will work with any combination and how it will affect their application. We are currently in the process of working with SC&C to do the same for the A-body platform so we can accomodate those that have already done the B-Body spindle conversions and have the shorter UCAs and also to design an UCA that is specific and optimized for the AFX spindle.

All the components for the orginal fabricated spindle and current forged spindle were modeled in Solidworks and had simple wheel load FEA done on them by both myself and the forging company since we already knew the fabricated spindle has taken a ton of abuse on the Thrasher Camaro. I have taken specialty classes in both finite analysis using ANSYS and strain gauge testing. Next we got in contact with one of the original reps that worked for the manufacturing company that did the C5 pressure cast aluminum spindle. He was able to tell us the constaints and requirements that GM demanded for their design. The C5 spindle is actually a pressure cast A356-T6 alloy while ours is a must stronger forged 6061-T6. For those that want numbers The UTS is 228 MPa vs. 310 MPa, Tensile YS is 152 MPa vs. 276 MPa, and Elongation at break is 3% vs. 12% for the C5 vs. the AFX materials. Our selection of material was discussed in long detail and initial FEA was done based on our current model by both myself and the forging company taking in to account a safety factor of 5. Not only is our spindle more ductile but it is also a lot stronger and those that know how forging works know how the grain structure is worked so that it flows in the direction of the part for optimal strength. The AFX is also almost 1.5x thicker everywhere than a C5 spindle. Now let me say that the FEA was used just as a tool for the design process not as a corner stone. I will get into the true destructive testing later.

Other aspects that we looked into and talked with GM engineers on was one thing that was stated above about the new Z06 twisting the brake bracket which I can concur was true. They had to redesign the spindle to be beefier for the 6-piston calipers. We took this knowledge and also incorporated about a 50% thicker caliper bracket which is also reinforced into the lower ball joint with stratigically placed variable fillets. Another issue plaguing the C5 knuckle was the lower ball joint taper fatiquing after each torque cycle of the ball joint. We took care of this issue by introducing harder 7075-T6 inserts that are frozen in liquid nitrogen and placed into the extremely precision machined holes of the spindle, which upon reaching room temperature maintain an adequete interference fit. On top of the interferance fit we use heavy duty spiral locks with an additional tensile strength of 211,000 psi to prevent any initial backing out on top of the interferance fit and mostly to reduce the risk of tampering.

Now onto the manufacturing. Number one is quality control and precision. The forging company we chose is in the USA and has been in business for over 40 years doing stuff for both military and the OEs. Each and every raw forging is inspected and 1 out of 10 has a tensile sample ran with it to check the material properties and their consitancy. Also we recieve a certification sheet showing the critical dimensions for each part and their tolerances. The machine process involves a 7-axis CNC with an integrated CMM probe to maintain all the stringent tolerances that are called out. I personally have 2 years of experience working with quality control and operating a CMM so I have a really good grasp on what I am looking for and what is required. Some may argue that some of this is over kill, but all our products must be top notch regardless if this is just the aftermarket.

Now on to the testing. We are in the process of contructing a pretty elaborate test station that will simulate wheel loads on the spindle and record the loads and deflection in the spindle. We plan on taking it to the point of failure multiple times. We are also putting a few sets on some Camaros right now that will be running on some road racing events later this month and running very wide tires. They will be putting some serious loads on these spindles. The road testing will be an on going operation that we will be tracking even after we start selling the AFX spindles. We are also working with another GM engineer to meet any other validating tests that he thinks are necessary. With all this said you can see we are going all out to make sure that these are safe, sound, and proven. As an engineer myself I can understand some worries with such a critical part of your vehicle and thats why we are being so aggressive with them and I am personally going to run them on my 87 Grand National. We have worked with the experts on these and I can guarentee we have a product that is of high caliber. Please let me know if you have any other concerns or questions.

I also wanted to add that our pricing currently is $625 a pair with brand new C5 hubs and all the hardware. BTW dennis thanks for the nice comments and as for the spindle height the tall version is 8.5" tall and with 1" taller upper and lower ball joints that would get you your 10" tall spindle along with a 1 7/8" drop. Like I said we are working with the A/G body guru Marcus at SC&C since he has a test frame to optimize this for that platform.

EDIT- Upon further reading of this post, there is 1 item that is incorrect- We do not use a 7075 T6 lower ball joint insert, and it is not pressed in place. We use 4130 steel lower inserts that screw into the spindle to help distribute the load into the spindle. It is now even stronger than it was when we first designed it. Our spindle failed after it saw 12x's the load it was designed for. We cycle loaded the spindle to 10 tons, and took it back down to zero, and multiple dial indicators showed ZERO deformation upon release of the load. We took it back up to find the breaking point, and it was just over 24,000 lbs.

I still need to take out some classified info from our excel spreadsheet, and then make it a .jpg for you guys to view. I'll be working on that later tonight, as I'm tied up de-bugging our new shopping cart.

Tyler

[wickedmotorhead]

Here's our hard numbers with use of all stock components and just our spindle and also with a Global West upper for which we are dealers for. Also included a bumpsteer chart. All this data is actual test data not from a suspension program. This is for a First Generation Camaro. We will be putting all this on our new website along with the other applications such as Chevelles and G-Bodies.

I agree with Mark on his points with suspension. Don't get to involved with comparing just hard numbers since there are a lot of other factors involved such as spring rates, ride heights, purpose of the car, etc.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/9049/stockstockafxcambercurve1ra.th.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stockstockafxcambercurve1ra.jpg)http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/4638/stockstockafxcaster9gj.th.jpg (http://img487.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stockstockafxcaster9gj.jpg)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8421/gwstockafxcamber8dk.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gwstockafxcamber8dk.jpg)http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5793/gwstockafxcaster4ej.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gwstockafxcaster4ej.jpg)
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/8818/afxbumpsteer8uj.th.jpg (http://img487.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afxbumpsteer8uj.jpg)

Shane

[Leadfoot1]

I really like the "Turn" this discussion has taken from what sounded like the beginning of war at some point, this is getting seriously interesting...

:thumbsup:

Lead.

[G-Body]

Should of work harder on getting the price right! your units will be outsold 10 fold, praise for a great product! now make one people will afford

[Ummgawa]

This has been one of the best threads I have read in a while. Thanks Tyler and others for all the great information. Laying it out there info wise is cool.

I am glad this did not turn into a pissing match.

Thanks

[Vince@Meanstreets]

good stuff guys. The frame looks interesting and can't wait to use one.

Gbody, If you sit and think about it, $67 isn't a whole lot of money considering your average hobbyist will spend that to band aid a frame and/or suspension to perform maybe half as good as we anticipate the DSE unit to do.
Now having used several Alston frames in the past I can tell you that the amount of money spent there is just for stronger welds, prettier frame than stock and no other performance gains. Maybe a 5 in cool factor but that drops to 2 when you get passed by a stock equipt frame with a g mod.
Im sure most of us can afford it if we cut fundage on other portions of our builds. ie: cheaper headers, carb, ignition system, 9k paint to 5k paint, and loose the 2k in stereo equipment.

[Bowtieracing]

DSE SUBFRAME SPECIFICATIONS
NOMINAL CAMBER
- 0.5°
NOMINAL CASTER
+ 4.5° (ADJUSTABLE TO 5.5°)
TOTAL SUSPENSION TRAVEL
4.0"
TOTAL BUMPSTEER, 30" TOE-SPAN
0.070" OVER 4" OF TRAVEL
TURNING ANGLE ( 18"x10" OR 17"x9" WHEELS )
30.0°
ACKERMAN ANGLE ( 18"x10" OR 17"x9" WHEELS )
2.5°
TURNING ANGLE ( 18"x9" WHEELS )
33.8°
ACKERMAN ANGLE ( 18"x9" WHEELS )
3.5°
Ok, time for the experts to sort that out :)

Steve you are so right about it!! Yes we all are eager to jugde the looks and price of different products but have no clue what these numbers and terms really means!! I highly appreciate the the Marks@lateral dynamics and Tylers input of clarify all details to us. Plese keep talking and opening all details for us :thumbsup: Would be a big help before spending big money.

Could someone point out the major benefits betveen stock subframe modified with all DSE coil over kit and R&P vs. New DSE subframe ? Is the difference possible to "feel" on the road or track ?

[Ummgawa]

The DSE pieces are excellent, However, Stielow is still using a modified factory frame on his latest build if I am not mistaken. Am I right or wrong here?

[Sales@Dutchboys]

yes you are right......although the sub was not out when he was building it....Who nows maybe he will put one under it......

[Steve1968LS2]

Could someone point out the major benefits betveen stock subframe modified with all DSE coil over kit and R&P vs. New DSE subframe ? Is the difference possible to "feel" on the road or track ?

The two biggest advantages over a stock sub I see right off the bat are:

1. The DSE sub is designed to accomodate a rack/pinion, so it's easier to get the geometry right.

2. Less labor then welding up the stock sub. Modifying for coil overs and reworking it for a rack.

It also looks like they really reworked the geometry, but I am not expert enough to give an opinion on it. The nice part about DSE is that you know the quality is top notch.

A car with good geometry is just nicer to drive on the road. Too much scrub radius or bump steer just makes it a PITA to drive. So yes, you would feel the difference in a good frame over a bad one.

[Sparks67]

The two biggest advantages over a stock sub I see right off the bat are:

1. The DSE sub is designed to accomodate a rack/pinion, so it's easier to get the geometry right.

2. Less labor then welding up the stock sub. Modifying for coil overs and reworking it for a rack.

It also looks like they really reworked the geometry, but I am not expert enough to give an opinion on it. The nice part about DSE is that you know the quality is top notch.

A car with good geometry is just nicer to drive on the road. Too much scrub radius or bump steer just makes it a PITA to drive. So yes, you would feel the difference in a good frame over a bad one.


Steve, does your post include the Unisteer Rack and Pinion? Maval gear makes that unit, and it is a bolt on.

Jeff

[Musclerodz]

Should of work harder on getting the price right! your units will be outsold 10 fold, praise for a great product! now make one people will afford
I seriously hope you are not taking a crack at Tyler now.

Forget the performance aspects of the new sub. The engineering alone impresses me. Anybody can weld a bunch of tubing together and make a subframe work given the required skills and knowledge which is exactly what I am doing with help from the proper people. DSE's sub an is taking an OE manufacturing appoach to the aftermarket world and that shows incredible commitent to their products. I also beleive ATS has done the same thing with their spindles.

Mike

[chicane]

..... my "opinion" is that there are other factors that are equally as important, more important in fact that go into a good system. Anyway, a few other parameters that are important/interesting to look at is the roll center height and behavior (i.e dynamically), the scrub radius, side scrubbing behavior, and some others.

Some folks love data, some hate it and just want to feel good about things. We tend towards the "love data" end of things, so it is really nice to see some hard numbers for once.

Couldnt have said that better myself.

One has to know how to interpret, not only the raw data, but also interpret the effects which those variables place on the overall system. Little things like migration and scrub have a lot to do with the big picture in more ways than known to most.

Without data, all you have is a placebo.
:lateral:

[RickM415]

well i dont know anything about the DSE subframe other than it looks good and it comes from DSE ..and even with specs and all that crap I still dont know wtf that means lol ..but just like everything else a name brand most of the times it speaks for it self ....just like sony or alpine or hre or anyother over priced brand lol the only decision left is either have a dse subframe and go to a car show or have a chris alston subframe and find a place to hide at the car show ...i think last time i checked their subframes are based on mustang II parts including their spindles

[Steve Chryssos]

Shane,
The overlayed bumpsteer graph is telling. You gotta do a graph that overlays the camber curve using all stock parts against the camber curve for GW/ATS combo. Then people will really see the benefits of the swap.

In the end, there is room for everyone. A stock clip with upgraded parts improves handling but has some limitations as well.
UPGRADED STOCK CLIP:
-Excellent Handling
-More Affordable Alternative (about $3K if you go to town, but keep coil springs and separate shocks)
Stock Clip Limitations:
-40 year old stamp & weld, rear steer clip.
-No place to properly mount a rack so you're stuck with a pitman arm, idler arm, and center link, etc.
-More limited wheel & tire sizes
-Coil over conversion (unnecessary in my opinion) brings price much closer to DSE.

DSE CLIP
-Excellent Handling
-Brand new frame (Study the stamped crossmember and reinforced UCA mounts/spring buckets to fully appreciate the benefits of the bare frame.
-Properly Rack & Pinion steering
-Room for big tires without sacrificing steering angle.
-Matched shocks and springs
DSE Clip Limitations:
-Twice the price of an upgraded stock clip. More if you stick with stock A-arms (but stock sux).

[Mean 69]

So, Steevo, that's 2 positive, and 4 minuses for the stock clip. And it's 5 positive, and 1 minus for the DSE setup? In your professional, and influential "opinion?" :rolleyes:

???
M

[fatlife]

Hi, I am just a lurker and am only going to post this, and go back to my cave.

What I see is a bunch of grown men arguing over nothing. I swear from reading these boards, and especially this one, is how everyone loves to go back and forth over parts, which one is better, which one costs more, which one looks better, what brand is the best, etc.....

Does anyone drive their car anymore these days????? If people spent more time putting miles on their car then arguing over what parts are the best, then arguments like these woudln't even come up. Its ALL just bragging rights anyways or your building your car for the wow appeal. I mean how many people here would actually even have the skills to pilot their car fast enough and smooth enough too really take advantage of the difference? Just go drive your car and let the guys with more money than brains buy what they want.

Everyone wants the best stuff on paper. Gotta have custom front sub, 3 link rear, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels, recaro seats, etc.... but 1 out of maybe 300 actually has the skills or time, or balls to take the car to its potential. All about bragging rights, what makes people sleep better at night, knowing just what great research and parts selection they made.

Everyone knows DSE makes quality stuff, and I doubt this subframe falls short. Is it overpriced? probably not for the effort/development they put into it, but bang for the buck??? I highly doubt it. Lets be honest, no one here really needs any of this stuff, but it is nice to have.

[chicane]

:clap: One post....... and I like this cat already. :clap:

[evilzee28]

:clap: One post....... and I like this cat already. :clap:

Couldn't agree more, been saying this for ages, they're cars not objects of art & most of these expensive parts being bought is just for bragging rights. No-ones gonna take their cars to the limit to see if there's a difference. A good test would be to have a number of cars for comparison.One fitted with a stock uprated frame & then one from the manufacturers like Wayne Due, DSE, Alston etc etc, but don't tell the drivers which one is which. Run them on the road & see how they compare I bet they wouldn't tell the difference on the street/showground/trailer, which is after all where your cars are gonna live. :rofl: :rofl:

[Steve Chryssos]

So, Steevo, that's 2 positive, and 4 minuses for the stock clip. And it's 5 positive, and 1 minus for the DSE setup? In your professional, and influential "opinion?" :rolleyes:

???
M

Mark,
Feel free to fill out the list as you see fit. :hail:
/S

[Payton King]

You know this thread was going along nicely. People inquiring about information and actually getting some.

Then you have a few people that have to bash other people's decisions on what they need or don't need and how they are or are not going to use it. I think this topic has been covered before. It is the individual's project and he can do with it what he/she wills. That is why people have hobbies. I could make the same argument for people who play golf buying a $500 driver that can't hit the ball 200 yards...or the couple that by the 10,000 sq ft home with no kids.

Live you own life and build your own projects. I have no problem with different opinons on suspension design and good discussions about it help everyone, but I draw the line when you do not know the person or people and tell them they don;t need something because they will not drive the vehicle the way YOU seem fit.

I am not getting on here saying you suck because you did the G- mod and are running an iron headed 283, so don't tell me the same if I choose to go a different route. To me it is about the information, speaking/typing to others with similar interests, watching other's projects come together and making friends with people I would not otherwise meet.

[Steve1968LS2]

:clap: One post....... and I like this cat already. :clap:

Well Yody isn't exactly new around here.. lol.

But he is right to some extent.. buying high end parts is as much about "bragging rights" and "that warm fuzzy feeling" as it is about performance.

Still, Why does anyone give a rats backside how other people spend their money.. Back to the Rolex analogy.. If you can afford the best then buy the best and whether you drive the piss out of it or tow it on a trailer really isn't anyones concern.

It's like saying someone is and idiot for buying a Corvette and never taking it to the track.

Anyways, this whole thought process is old and frankly worn out..

[Stuart Adams]

It's always funny how the tire kickers just can't seem to resist bashing prices and parts. Jeleousy runs rampant.

[mazspeed]

Does anyone drive their car anymore these days????? If people spent more time putting miles on their car then arguing over what parts are the best, then arguments like these woudln't even come up. Its ALL just bragging rights anyways or your building your car for the wow appeal. I mean how many people here would actually even have the skills to pilot their car fast enough and smooth enough too really take advantage of the difference? Just go drive your car and let the guys with more money than brains buy what they want.


Wrong wrong wrong. There are plenty of people on this site that WILL push their cars to the limits. I'm one of them. I will notice a difference in parts and subframe design by just hard performance driving. Stop generalizing.

[mazspeed]

It's always funny how the tire kickers just can't seem to resist bashing prices and parts. Jeleousy runs rampant.
Exactly.

[Stuart Adams]

Yeah probably the same people who put a set of torque thrusts on a totally stock camaro and call it a pro tourer...

[mazspeed]

Yeah probably the same people who put a set of torque thrusts on a totally stock camaro and call it a pro tourer...
I see that on e-bay all day long.

[EFI]

First off nicely put Payton! To each there own.

Wrong wrong wrong. There are plenty of people on this site that WILL push their cars to the limits. I'm one of them. I will notice a difference in parts and subframe design by just hard performance driving. Stop generalizing.

Secondly, I couldn't agree more with what's said above. I'm fairly new to the custom car world, but in the past I've owned high performance boats and bikes. Both of which I've pushed to the limits. I've put few laps on a bike at the track, and trust me, from good tires to aftermaket stabilizers, it makes a difference. Same goes with boats, it's amazing what a Lathem steering system will do.

Lastly, thanks to all who have provided technical info.


-D

[chicane]

Well Yody isn't exactly new around here.. lol.

:wow: No way. Ya think ??

I guess it has been that long, since I have really read into whom it might be. He's been gone long enough, that I have become complacent and it actually makes sense now.

Wow. I just liked it because I thought it was a ballsy comment to be made around these parts..... considering that there are plenty of cats here that actively thrash their rides on the blacktop and at track days.

[96z28ss]

I was at wayne dues shop this weekend. He is working on a new subframe that will allow him to produce them at a faster rate and be more cost effective, so we may see his price for a new subframe drop a bit. Also he is working on producing the frame that is in Scotts car for production as another option.

I think the new DSE subframe is cool but I really like the rugged look of the tubular frame with the welds. If 2 camaros are at a car show and they both have there hoods open, one with the DSE frame and a Wayne Due frame, the one with the DSE frame might get looked at as a stock one.

[tyoneal]

I for one enjoy the technical end of things.

If you don't like it, or it bores you, don't read it. I'm in the process of building a car that for me is a lot of money. I like to understand and at least be able to make an educated decision.

If I choose to buy an "expensive" upgrade, I like to know ahead of time whether it is Fluff or truely good technology, then make a decision accordingly.

If this is not your cup of tea, pick anouther topic and knock yourself out.

tyoneal

[Leadfoot1]

Well i'm glad to (finally) read some of you are sharing my point of view.

I mean you can be a anybody, full 'o' cash and just be willing to give it around because you like cars and don't know how to work on 'em...But that should not stop you from finding a few minutes a day to educate yourself and understand what you are doing. (it just makes no sense :willy: )

I'm no millionnaire, but i will do things the same way when i get there. (working at it !!! :unibrow: )

I tought about something tonight.... Remember when everybody we're building Pro-Streeters; You needed to have an 8-71 lung on top of that496 Rat, a Lenco behind it, 14 x 32 Goodyears and so many points to that cage that you'd lose count of 'em to run 10.50's ....when Chuck Samuel could do 9's in his El Camino on 9 inch slicks on 1-4 barrel and steel wheels....

But that Scott Sullivan Nova did Look cool. (Hey, i'm 33...I just remember those cars that's all!!!:lol: )

Same thing..."WOW!" Factor....

You can get the job done or even better if you "think" of what you are doing,(what is called engineering i guess) and.....Yes.....you will "WOW" the ones that are like you (edit,theorically speaking; those that go 'see' car shows and don't know squat, onlookers) with your "flashing" namebrand toys at car shows if thats what you are after...

I think that spending the cash is more than OK if its worth it...But to know that, you need to know what you are buying...and why! Back to square one.

Lead.

[Stuart Adams]

Huh!!

[Leadfoot1]

I missed that one Stewart...(?)

Lead.

[jimhamptons]

LMAO! When I make my next stock investment do I need to pass it by you guys first. :D

[Sparks67]

Does anyone drive their car anymore these days????? If people spent more time putting miles on their car then arguing over what parts are the best, then arguments like these woudln't even come up. Its ALL just bragging rights anyways or your building your car for the wow appeal. I mean how many people here would actually even have the skills to pilot their car fast enough and smooth enough too really take advantage of the difference? Just go drive your car and let the guys with more money than brains buy what they want.

I am really curious on what type of car do you own? I owned my 1967 RS Camaro since 1983. Have you ever driven a muscle car with 4 wheel drum brakes? I can tell you that stopping the car was an experience. I never really liked how it handled either, but it was great at the drag strip. I have already driven my Camaro to the edge, when the handling was very scary.

Actually, last month on a trip to Germany for work. Well, I admit that someone with a red 1969 Camaro from Lateral-g.net encouraged me to test on how fast a rental car could go on the autobahn. I took the rental car up to 200 km/h, which is about 120 mph on the autobahn. I was just out of motor, and those pesky rich people in their Mercedes Benz/BMW's or Porsche would blink their lights or honk their horn at you. So you would have to get over in the middle lane. Now, if I had my 1967 Camaro finished and it was over in Germany. I wonder on who would be getting over in the middle lane?

So, when you have a need for speed!! Gotta have a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels, recaro seats (Gotta be comfortable!!!)

The main reason for my project is to have a 67 Camaro that handles, brakes, and has some of the nice comforts of new cars. Another cool thing is now I have the money to create the Camaro that I always wanted.

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

[ProStreet R/T]

Wow, some of the comments in here really surprise me. If you guys want to piss and moan about something costing way more than it needs to send an email to HRE.

And before you jump up DSE's tailpipe about cost, think about the R&D, and hydroform toolings costs that are spent up front to build something like this. I tell ya it's WAY more than most people on this site have in their entire car.

It's yet to be seen who really has the best subframe (it's all subjective to begin with) but it sure has some nice features. I personally like the hand fabbed look of the WD piece but wouldn't hesitate to run either of them on my own car.

The meat flappers in the group might want to wait for some empirical track data and driving feedback before you pass judgement purely based on suspension numbers ya probably don't understand, and how the competition compares. :thumbsup:

[67Fastback]

I agree. Even if never on a track - the skills of most "spirited" drivers easily surpasses what most of these cars are capable of with stock components.

Jeff

I am really curious on what type of car do you own? I owned my 1967 RS Camaro since 1983. Have you ever driven a muscle car with 4 wheel drum brakes? I can tell you that stopping the car was an experience. I never really liked how it handled either, but it was great at the drag strip. I have already driven my Camaro to the edge, when the handling was very scary.

Actually, last month on a trip to Germany for work. Well, I admit that someone with a red 1969 Camaro from Lateral-g.net encouraged me to test on how fast a rental car could go on the autobahn. I took the rental car up to 200 km/h, which is about 120 mph on the autobahn. I was just out of motor, and those pesky rich people in their Mercedes Benz/BMW's or Porsche would blink their lights or honk their horn at you. So you would have to get over in the middle lane. Now, if I had my 1967 Camaro finished and it was over in Germany. I wonder on who would be getting over in the middle lane?

So, when you have a need for speed!! Gotta have a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels, recaro seats (Gotta be comfortable!!!)

The main reason for my project is to have a 67 Camaro that handles, brakes, and has some of the nice comforts of new cars. Another cool thing is now I have the money to create the Camaro that I always wanted.

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

[MarkM66]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/67camaro02/ward.gif

[Mkelcy]

So, when you have a need for speed!! Gotta have a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels, recaro seats (Gotta be comfortable!!!)
This statement, in a nutshell, summarizes what those who aren't jumping on the new DSE subframe bandwagon are reacting to. In fact, when you have a "need for speed," you DON'T need a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels or recaro seats. To suggest a car is "slow" if it doesn't have those things is simply incorrect.

[Steve1968LS2]

This statement, in a nutshell, summarizes what those who aren't jumping on the new DSE subframe bandwagon are reacting to. In fact, when you have a "need for speed," you DON'T need a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels or recaro seats. To suggest a car is "slow" if it doesn't have those things is simply incorrect.

In fact a new Kia Sportage can go over 100mph so why buy anything more..

It's sad when these threads become like this...

[Steve Chryssos]

This statement, in a nutshell, summarizes what those who aren't jumping on the new DSE subframe bandwagon are reacting to. In fact, when you have a "need for speed," you DON'T need a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels or recaro seats. To suggest a car is "slow" if it doesn't have those things is simply incorrect.

I keep seeing this "You don't need..." argument and it makes me laugh. None of us NEED any of this stuff, budget or high buck--we don't need speed parts, we want them.

Personally, the only thing I NEED in my life is a low cholesterol diet.

[Leadfoot1]

In fact a new Kia Sportage can go over 100mph so why buy anything more..

It's sad when these threads become like this...


Yeah....tough decision; 15 grand for a new sportage....or for a fully built DSE sub (+taxes and shipping) + brakes, bushings, brake lines, prep and paint, etc...(ok i'll throw in a Ron davis rad for the price and to kee you cool...)

I'd like to see someone hit 100mph sitting on their subframe alone....(Oh, you need to add the price of those HRE's to the project to get rollin...) :rolleyes:

Its not sad Steeve...Its difference of opinions. At least we are getting some good info out of the debate.

Mk Elky said it nicely, "to suggest a car is slow if its not wearing the parts is incorrect" We had a comment about Stielow's car not wearing them at some point here....Its certainly not because of a lack of cash, opportunities or KNOWLEDGE...And HE could tell the difference between parts.

Their must be some reasons he keeps using the stk frame, IT DOES THE JOB!
(I'll try to post a pic of an original sub that was modded and finessed + completely finished (show car like) absolutely amazing that tends to look like the repop DSE unit in the end)

Lead.

[Mkelcy]

I keep seeing this "You don't need..." argument and it makes me laugh. None of us NEED any of this stuff, budget or high buck--we don't need speed parts, we want them.
You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:

I don't need this part, but I want it, and here's my reason why -
I'm building a PT car. And I'm building a PT car cuz I love the looks of the early camaro, firebird, nova, chevelle, cuda and others. But, with a stock front-end most of them handle like either a shopping cart or a tour bus.
I want the best of both worlds; the looks of a early muscle car and the handling of a modern day vette. - Dan

Bolding added by Mkelcy.
Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus." To suggest that it does is simply silly and/or ignorant. Similarly, a car using the ATS spindle or the SC&C tall ball joints/control arms, in each case on an otherwise stock subframe, can be made to handle extremely well.

If someone wants to say "I'm getting X subframe because it: (1) looks killer, (2) may be a slight improvement over what I could do with a stock sub, (3) shows I have money to burn, (4) is all the rage, (5) is a well made piece that I want on my car, even though not a big improvement in functionality, (6) allows me bigger front tires than I could otherwise mount," I'm cool with all of it. But if someone says "I'm getting X subframe because it is the only/best way I can make my car handle," then I'm sorry, they're simply ill-informed.

[XcYZ]

Don't forget to add packaging to that list. The rear steer setup on a 1st Gen is a nightmare. That's just one more reason why I wanted an aftermarket setup.

[evilzee28]

In fact a new Kia Sportage can go over 100mph so why buy anything more..

It's sad when these threads become like this...

The only reason it's sad is because people don't like an argument with two sides being given, each of which have valid points. It then degenerates into a slanging match. One thing I've noticed & I'm sure many others have as well, is that if you don't agree with the general concensus of opinion on the forum....."your wrong" & your views & opinions are seen to be that of an idiot. To my mind the idioits are those that will say they're gonna get "this part or that part" just because it has the right "name" attached without considering WHY they're spending the money. Are you spending the money because it's what YOU want or because your peers will think better of you? It's like the thread about the dummy turbo aircleaners, the guy obviously thought it was cool or he wouldn't have asked for opinions. If everyone said it was cool I bet he'd have gone for it, but because the response was luke warm at best he's decided not to go for it. Pro Touring now seems all about peer pressure & pose value...... :lol:

[Mkelcy]

Don't forget to add packaging to that list. The rear steer setup on a 1st Gen is a nightmare. That's just one more reason why I wanted an aftermarket setup.
Again, a nightmare in what way? The rear steer can certainly be made to handle well. You can put just about any type of engine in with rear steer. Granted, you don't have the "bling" of a rack, but functionally a rack and front steer are hardly required to make the car go around curves well, to get precise steering with good road feel or to do any of the currently popular engine swaps.

I don't care how people spend their money or why; but when they tell me "x" part is the only way to achieve decent performance, then I get to question that conclusion.

[evilzee28]

Don't forget to add packaging to that list. The rear steer setup on a 1st Gen is a nightmare. That's just one more reason why I wanted an aftermarket setup.

Are you saying than that the Trans Am Camaros of Penske/Donohue were unable to corner fast because of rear steering or that they didn't handle with stock frames & A arms?? Admitedly, they're dinosaurs by comparison to modern suspension set ups, but put Donohues car against a typical PT car & you might just get a surprise. :lol:

[XcYZ]

That's not my point at all... I'm saying that I need the room to fit downpipes and wastegate plumbing. Packaging. Just another variable.

[Steve1968LS2]

Its not sad Steeve...Its difference of opinions. At least we are getting some good info out of the debate.

Mk Elky said it nicely, "to suggest a car is slow if its not wearing the parts is incorrect" .

The only problem is that nobody said that a car is slow if it doesn't have these parts.. well nobody except Elky.

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?

And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market?

I've never seen so many people :willy: over what other people are putting on thier cars..

there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:

Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus."

Maybe you missed where he used the word "stock".. which your suspension is not. Or are you saying that a totally stock suspension handles great?

[Steve1968LS2]

That's not my point at all... I'm saying that I need the room to fit downpipes and wastegate plumbing. Packaging. Just another variable.

You really shouldn't have to justify what you do to your car. Like I said, sad thread.

[907rs]

You really shouldn't have to justify what you do to your car. Like I said, sad thread.

How true.

For those of you that don't like or have the need for the product, don't buy it.

[Ummgawa]

OK, everyone that does not fully agree with each other is a Butthole. :rofl:

[EFI]

You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:

**Quote:
Originally Posted by EFI
I don't need this part, but I want it, and here's my reason why -
I'm building a PT car. And I'm building a PT car cuz I love the looks of the early camaro, firebird, nova, chevelle, cuda and others. But, with a stock front-end most of them handle like either a shopping cart or a tour bus.
I want the best of both worlds; the looks of a early muscle car and the handling of a modern day vette. - Dan

Bolding added by Mkelcy.

Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus." To suggest that it does is simply silly and/or ignorant. Similarly, a car using the ATS spindle or the SC&C tall ball joints/control arms, in each case on an otherwise stock subframe, can be made to handle extremely well.

If someone wants to say "I'm getting X subframe because it: (1) looks killer, (2) may be a slight improvement over what I could do with a stock sub, (3) shows I have money to burn, (4) is all the rage, (5) is a well made piece that I want on my car, even though not a big improvement in functionality, (6) allows me bigger front tires than I could otherwise mount," I'm cool with all of it. But if someone says "I'm getting X subframe because it is the only/best way I can make my car handle," then I'm sorry, they're simply ill-informed.

I think my reply was some what taken out of context. I was responding to being told by someone that "nobody needs this stuff" (and that anyone who buys it is a "sucker.") In my reply I was simply generalization towards being told - I didn't *need* something, and I was clarifying I didn't *need* it I simply wanted it and why *I* wanted it.

As I stated before, I'm fairly new to the PT world. But, I do have experience in the bike and boating worlds, two places where aftermarket parts make a big difference in performance, especially in steering/handling.

My bro had a '70 Nova and my best friend had a '71 Chevelle, both handled poorly with stock front-ends when compared to a 2006 Vette or Audi S4. Maybe it's a stretch to think my car will be able to burn up the mountain passes like a 2006 Vette, but it's what I'm shooting for, and I'm looking for a solution that will get me as close to that as possible.

Clearly a DSE subframe is not the only choice out there, and maybe after I've looked at all the options it won't turn out to be my first choice.

I've learned a ton of useful info from this thread, so thanks again to the people who have provided data and technical info.


- Dan

[Steve Chryssos]

You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car.....

That cuts both ways. The folks who state that you don't need an aftermarket sub are suggesting that there are no real benefits to the upgrade when in fact the benefits exist. The gains are small and therefore represent a higher cost to value ratio than the stock subframe upgrades. But that holds true for all "next level" upgrades. The cost to go from point B to point C almost always is greater than the cost required to get from point A to point B. The cost to turn a 12 second car to a 11 second car, is usually far less than the transition of an 11 second car into an 10 second car. The net gain in either case is a one second reduction, but one task costs more than the other.

So I agree with you. You get more value from a stock sub upgrade than you get from a subframe swap. I just want to make sure that you--and everyone else--understands that the right subframe swap has benefits despite the fact that it costs more. There's more to it than just bling.

[Leadfoot1]

[QUOTE=Steve1968LS2]The only problem is that nobody said that a car is slow if it doesn't have these parts.. well nobody except Elky.

Well...i didn't take it to the word "slow" but on a rather larger understanding; as if you don't wear the "hot"parts your not doing it right.

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?

Well, we got some specs out of some products that we might be able to talk about now (i hope), to understand better what we are doing in the future and guide our decisions, i'm not participating in this forum to discriminate choices people make, to each their own, 'just trying to understand why and on what basis, to make up my own mind. when someone comes up with a valid anwser (to MY justification standards) i'll be satisfied. Untill then, anyone who wants to chip in is welcome to valid their opinion, be it they like 'flippin cash or that they know wtf they are talking about....As long as it feeds my need for info, i'm down with that!

And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market?

He could had run any other on the market.....

I've never seen so many people :willy: over what other people are putting on thier cars..


Again, I don't care what they do to their cars...I'm gathering info for my own sake and evaluating the products as best i can from reading them infos here...from people that share the same passion, just not in the same manner from time to time.
.....

[Mkelcy]

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?
I'm curious why you think a thread that discusses the pros and cons of the various front suspension alternatives and the relative cost of each is not "good info." We've seen threads that go on at length what it takes to be a "real P-T" car, but this one is useless?

XcYZ makes a good point that for plumbing dual turbos, rear steer can be a problem. I hadn't considered that because I hadn't thought about doing dual turbos. For the most part this thread has been a respectful exploration about what can be done to our cars and why it's done. No one is really debating the what, the debate rages about the why. If someone out there is considering an aftermarket sub because he or she thinks that's the only way to get good handling, then this thread is useful.

there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:
Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus."
Maybe you missed where he used the word "stock".. which your suspension is not. Or are you saying that a totally stock suspension handles great?
No, I was responding to a series of posters in this thread that seem to imply that if you don't entirely replace the stock sub, you can't get your car to handle well.

I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I've got a modded stock subframe in my current driver, and I have a 21st Century sub ready to go into my second car. But I recognize that, putting aside other factors, including bling, the performance gains I'll likely get with the 21st Century sub probably won't dazzle me as compared to the modded stock sub.

[Mkelcy]

So I agree with you. You get more value from a stock sub upgrade than you get from a subframe swap. I just want to make sure that you--and everyone else--understands that the right subframe swap has benefits despite the fact that it costs more. There's more to it than just bling.

And I agree with you. I've never questioned whether there are benefits to an aftermarket sub. (See above where I mention that I've got one (and not a cheap one at that) sitting in my shop ready to go on my second car.) But I think it's important to clearly understand what those benefits are; and so far as I'm aware (and I could easily have missed a valid comparative test) no one can yet say that one of the benefits of an aftermarket subframe is improved lap times over a properly modded stock subframe.

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm curious why you think a thread that discusses the pros and cons of the various front suspension alternatives and the relative cost of each is not "good info." We've seen threads that go on at length what it takes to be a "real P-T" car, but this one is useless?

Pros and cons based on what? so far it's only based on $$.. I've seen very little data in this thread and lots of assumptions.

And the threads about "what it takes to be a real P-T car" are just as pointless.. everyone want to define stuff and segment the hobby rather than just enjoy the moment. I guess it's human nature.

No, I was responding to a series of posters in this thread that seem to imply that if you don't entirely replace the stock sub, you can't get your car to handle well.

Maybe you can show me where this was said??? The example you quoted said that a STOCK suspension handled badly.. and somehow from that you took "the entire subframe has to be replaced or your car sucks" from that?

[jonny51]

This argument is a complete joke,who would put a bunch of money into an old POS?Yeah I said POS,these cars really do nothing very well except look cool.So each and every guy on this site with a musclecar has it because it looks cool!You can buy a late model corvette(saving big time on your $$$$$$) that will run circles around damn near any aftermarket suspension on these old cars.
So just pipe down and go spend your savings on your build and buy your wife a big rock!

[Leadfoot1]

:lol:

That must be why its written "MODERATOR" under your name jonny.....


Lead.

[XcYZ]

Well, this thread has run its course for supplying useful and productive info - especially considering how far off topic we've moved. All we're accomplishing now is pissing people off.

Locked.

We can certainly start another thread discussing the pro's and con's of parts selection, but it won't start with the press release of one of our sponsors.