Floaters: Mod-Lite, Strange Pro-Touring, Chassisworks Pro-Touring?

[Blown353]

After a 5 (or so?) year hiatus with my car sitting in the shop gathering dust and cobwebs I've started working on it again.

One of the good things about taking a break is that several products I was interested in 5 years ago that were in their infancy or not available are now mature... and have several competitors to choose from.

One of these things I'll be needing is a new rear end. Right now my car still has a 12 bolt in it. With the turbos and an estimated 1100hp / 900 ft-lb on high boost I really should sell the 12 bolt and go 9 inch. 5 years ago there wasn't many options in the floater game for street use and the best choice at the time was probably big torino bearing ends. Now there are several street friendly floater options out there.

The car is going to primarily be a street car running on 275/315 tires (probably NT05, R888 or similar.) Possibly a few autocross sessions, maybe a track day here and there. Motor may make 1100hp on high boost but chances are most of the time I'm going to be cruising around at low boost and about 750-800hp to keep things somewhat sane.

I see several options now:

1. Stick with the big torino bearing ends. Simple, inexpensive. Possible premature axle bearing wear from heavy cornering, not as safe as a floater in case of an axle failure. But since I won't be doing drag launches on drag slicks an axle failure is unlikely... but still possible. Convential axle & bearing setup might have a little axle flex and pad knockback which is now a concern since I'm also going to be switching to Wilwood FNSL4R radial mount calipers in the rear. Might have to change axle bearings every few years from cornering wear & tear depending on how hard I beat on the car.

2. One of the Mod-Lite floaters from Speedway that Ron likes. My only concern with this style of floater is the distance from the hub wheel mounting face to the back of the calipers seems gigantic. That will require a wide axle to keep the entire hub and brake assembly inside of the wheelwells to prevent the rear of the calipers from hitting the frame on suspension compression. It will also require wheels with lots of backspace because of that wide axle, but since I'll be ordering new wheels anyway I'm not too concerned about it.

3. A Strange Pro-Touring floater. Appearing as more of a "street" design than the taken from racing Mod Lite, based on the rotor hat appearance the overall width between the back of the caliper and the wheel mounting surface of the hub seems much narrower than the Mod-Lite which should ease any clearance concerns.

4. One of Chassisworks new Pro Touring floater setups. Looks similar to a C6 rear cartridge based setup, only much larger. Components are fairly expensive though and I'm worried about long term parts supply as the bearing cartridges and axles look like they might be proprietary. One of my buddies who is a Chassisworks dealer is going to speak with Chris regarding the long term availability of the hubs, maybe they're shared with another OEM application...

5. One of the Speed Tech Chicane C6 hub based setups, although I'm not sure they'll do one for a Chevelle. I like the idea of using OEM bearing and parking brake components for availability and ease of replacement in the future. Also makes it easy for brakes and rotors, just order for a C6 rear. I have read a little about some issues with the C6/C7 hubs under heavy use, but I haven't rear enough to make a educated decision yet.

I've ruled out the Baer floater... while it seems like a very nicely designed package it also appears to be designed around their brakes and I'm just not that happy with the selection of piston areas of their calipers for a stout manual braking setup.

Center section will probably be a Strange HD aluminum case, 3.50 gears, S-trac posi, but that's independent of housing and axles anyways.

Anways, I'd love to hear thoughts and recommendations. I'm just getting started checking out what's the latest and greatest on the market and refining my new shopping list (currently at a T56 Magnum, hydraulic clutch setup, new rear end, ditching the C6 PBR brakes and Hydroboost for a Wilwood Aero 6 / FNSL4R manual setup, CNC dual master cylinder & balance bar setup, and on, and on...)

[cjfirstgen]

Check my build thread. A few pics and comments there. Just no driving feedback yet since the car is not done. Great quality parts though.

[3_z28camaro]

Another possibility:
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=49657

[MtotheIKEo]

How locked into the radial mount brakes are you? DSE or the C6 ends posted above would be a sweet setup with built in wheel speed hardware for traction control down the road ( if that's something you might be interested in).

[Ron Sutton]

I'll fill in some of the blanks.

After a 5 (or so?) year hiatus with my car sitting in the shop gathering dust and cobwebs I've started working on it again.

One of the good things about taking a break is that several products I was interested in 5 years ago that were in their infancy or not available are now mature... and have several competitors to choose from.

One of these things I'll be needing is a new rear end. Right now my car still has a 12 bolt in it. With the turbos and an estimated 1100hp / 900 ft-lb on high boost I really should sell the 12 bolt and go 9 inch.
Yes you should. Even with a C-Clip Eliminator kit, this rear end will not be up to the job.

5 years ago there wasn't many options in the floater game for street use and the best choice at the time was probably big torino bearing ends. Now there are several street friendly floater options out there.

The car is going to primarily be a street car running on 275/315 tires (probably NT05, R888 or similar.) Possibly a few autocross sessions, maybe a track day here and there. Motor may make 1100hp on high boost but chances are most of the time I'm going to be cruising around at low boost and about 750-800hp to keep things somewhat sane.

I see several options now:

1. Stick with the big torino bearing ends. Simple, inexpensive. Possible premature axle bearing wear from heavy cornering
Yes. Ask SSLance.

, not as safe as a floater in case of an axle failure.
To me this is the biggest safety issue. When that entire wheel & axle flange comes off ... it's real ugly. Doesn't matter if you're going 40 on a Goodguys autocross course (with concrete barriers) or 100mph on a road course.

But since I won't be doing drag launches on drag slicks an axle failure is unlikely... but still possible. Convential axle & bearing setup might have a little axle flex and pad knockback which is now a concern since I'm also going to be switching to Wilwood FNSL4R radial mount calipers in the rear.
Yup. what most guys don't know is that pad knockpad is not caused by the brakes. It's caused by axle flange flex in the rear (and spindle flex in the front). True floaters eliminate the flex ... so no pad knock back.

Might have to change axle bearings every few years from cornering wear & tear depending on how hard I beat on the car.

2. One of the Mod-Lite floaters from Speedway that Ron likes. My only concern with this style of floater is the distance from the hub wheel mounting face to the back of the calipers seems gigantic.
It is ... on purpose. The caliper & rotor are farther inboard with the goal being to get them out of the wheel ... so the air can cool them. When the rear brakes are tucked deep int to the wheel, they don't get any cooling airflow ... unless you duct them. So the brakes run much hotter ... and transfer that heat to the wheels & tires. This makes the rear tires hotter than normal, reducing traction on corner exit. Moving the rear brake out from inside the wheel gets it in the airflow ... cooling it ... and keeps the rear tires cooling in track conditions.

That will require a wide axle to keep the entire hub and brake assembly inside of the wheelwells
This would be defeating the purpose.

to prevent the rear of the calipers from hitting the frame on suspension compression. It will also require wheels with lots of backspace because of that wide axle, but since I'll be ordering new wheels anyway I'm not too concerned about it.
If your frame is right next to the tires ... with say 3/4" tire-to-frame clearance ... you typically want the axle width wide enough to mate with 4.5" of wheel backspace or greater.

3. A Strange Pro-Touring floater. Appearing as more of a "street" design than the taken from racing Mod Lite, based on the rotor hat appearance the overall width between the back of the caliper and the wheel mounting surface of the hub seems much narrower than the Mod-Lite which should ease any clearance concerns.
Yes it does. This is a better fitment choice if your goal is to tuck the brakes inside the rear wheels. You are correct this is more of a street set-up & less for racing or track duty.

4. One of Chassisworks new Pro Touring floater setups. Looks similar to a C6 rear cartridge based setup, only much larger.
Great things from the mind of Chris Alston. This thing is bad ass. Those bearings are bad ass. This is a very well engineered piece. Price might its only hurdle.

Components are fairly expensive though and I'm worried about long term parts supply as the bearing cartridges and axles look like they might be proprietary. One of my buddies who is a Chassisworks dealer is going to speak with Chris regarding the long term availability of the hubs, maybe they're shared with another OEM application...
This is a proprietary bearing. I know Chassisworks will be in business long after Chris is gone, because his son is involved. So I wouldn't worry about availability for 20+ years.

5. One of the Speed Tech Chicane C6 hub based setups, although I'm not sure they'll do one for a Chevelle.
I talked to Blake @ Speedtech on this rear end a few months back. While they're not building many currently, they will & I think they'll build it however you want.

I like the idea of using OEM bearing and parking brake components for availability and ease of replacement in the future. Also makes it easy for brakes and rotors, just order for a C6 rear. I have read a little about some issues with the C6/C7 hubs under heavy use, but I haven't rear enough to make a educated decision yet.
As long as you're running the HD verison (C6 ZR1 or C7) these are rated pretty good. Bearings rated 1515# & 1080#. Not as beefy as regular floaters where the bearings are rated 1800# & 1800#. But way better than any a single Big Ford/Torino ball bearing ... not meant for thrust loads.


I've ruled out the Baer floater... while it seems like a very nicely designed package it also appears to be designed around their brakes and I'm just not that happy with the selection of piston areas of their calipers for a stout manual braking setup.

Center section will probably be a Strange HD aluminum case, 3.50 gears, S-trac posi, but that's independent of housing and axles anyways.
I suggest their light weight Nodular case, as it handles heat better. Aluminum is fine for drag racing and "ok" for longer run track duty, but the lightweight Nodular case works better & is within 2#

Anways, I'd love to hear thoughts and recommendations. I'm just getting started checking out what's the latest and greatest on the market and refining my new shopping list (currently at a T56 Magnum, hydraulic clutch setup, new rear end, ditching the C6 PBR brakes and Hydroboost for a Wilwood Aero 6 / FNSL4R manual setup, CNC dual master cylinder & balance bar setup, and on, and on...)

Best wishes.


:cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

2. One of the Mod-Lite floaters from Speedway that Ron likes. My only concern with this style of floater is the distance from the hub wheel mounting face to the back of the calipers seems gigantic. That will require a wide axle to keep the entire hub and brake assembly inside of the wheelwells to prevent the rear of the calipers from hitting the frame on suspension compression. It will also require wheels with lots of backspace because of that wide axle, but since I'll be ordering new wheels anyway I'm not too concerned about it.



If you run a deep BS the tire will cover it. But most here run 5.5 to 6"
Depending on your brake choice you can use weld on brackets the locate the caliper @ 7~o-clock on the passenger side and @~4 o-clock on the driver side for better clearance.

[Blown353]

Thanks for the input guys.

Ron & Vince: The rear brakes are an issue for a Chevelle. With the lower shock mount and lower control arm mounts being placed where they are it would preclude say a 5 or 7 o'clock caliper mounting position to keep the caliper mounted low and prevent it from crashing into the frame and inner wheelwell on suspension compression. Probably the best I could do is an 8 or 9 o'clock mount with a caliper the size of the Wilwoods. My car is already low, I've lifted the entire transmission tunnel and I'm running shorter ZQ8 progressive bump stops for enough compression travel so the clearance issues are more of a problem than a completely stock setup and ride height.

That's why I'm concerned about the Mod-Lite not fitting unless I get it wide enough so the insides of the calipers can clear the frame on compression. Ron, good info on why the brakes such have large offset to get them into "clean" air and outside of the wheel. Unfortunately on my primarily street car using the original frame (fully boxed with the Hellwig kit and fully seam welded) with the original lower control arm and shock pickup points there are certainly packaging problems with the Mod Lite. If I ever did a trackday with the car I'd rig up some rear ducting to help. My 11" rear wheels are already 6.5" backspace with a stock width 12 bolt and Baer rear brakes (with about 1/4" thick rotor hats) and just based on what I'm seeing to tuck a Mod Lite and brakes inside the wheelwell things might have to be 3-4" wider per side. Does anyone have the exact dimension from the hub face of a Mod Lite to the back side of a Wilwood FNSL4R caliper, including the extra room needed for the brake hose attachment? It looks like it must be around 6" based on pictures.

The Strange & Alston setups certainly like they'd be a much more suitable package on my car with the narrower overall with of the brake & hub setup. I know the Strange will work but I really like Alston's solution with the cartridge style bearing. I also know Chris doesn't like to half-ass anything. A friend who has known and been a dealer for Chris for at least 20-something years is checking into pricing for me. It also would be nice to be able to order the entire setup from Chris (housing, floater, and complete 3rd member) and then make a 40 minute drive to go pick it all up. :thumbsup:

Ron, thanks for the tip on the lightweight nodular case compared to the aluminum. While I like the HD aluminum case (it does look nice) long term reliability always trumps looks and 2# isn't a concern. I don't see a lightweight nodular case listed on Strange's website though, do they make one?

Plenty more head scratching for me to do, but at least I have a lot of good input to ponder. Now to go ask some more questions over in the braking section. :)

[MillerBuilt]

Blown353

Also please consider the closest to NON proprietary solution on the market. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48782


Ok, maybe a little proprietary :lol: . But the ONLY two proprietary parts that are in my proposed solution are the Steel Weld-on Flanges (which you cannot hurt or wear out), and the axles (which are of HyTuf material and nearly bullet proof, and do not see anyone needing to ever replace these),,,, other than that, you can pick up ALL other parts over the counter at either any GM dealer, or nearly any auto parts store on any given Sunday and bolt on! Compare that with ANY other offerings for never having to be married to the supplier of proprietary parts.

Please note that my offering/OE Hub Unit requires ZERO modification, and ZERO periodic adjustment/monitoring as the other similar offerings you mentioned above.

And not that you have not mentioned some great solutions above, but you did mention proprietary being a little concern so figured I would touch base on that.

As for packaging you cannot beet this C6 set-up and will not be an issue with caliper clearance in relation to frame rail, as it is a very well packaged system.

I also would like to point out the proven and very safe e-brake as well, because that is something that sets this set-up aside from others too.

And for the record, you can run ANY brake caliper/rotor on this set-up that was intended for a C5/6 Corvette and you are not limited to OEM if you prefer others such as Wilwood.

Lastly, I would not lose any sleep on the rotor/caliper NOT hanging outside the wheel as is the case on the circle track type floaters, although it is not hurting anything, it certainly is not necessary.

Thanks,

Jay

[T_Raven]

Good info Ron. I've wanted to use an aluminum HD-9 housing but I never thought about an issue with heat compared to the nodular case.

[Ron Sutton]

Good info Ron. I've wanted to use an aluminum HD-9 housing but I never thought about an issue with heat compared to the nodular case.

A few tips from experience on 9" 3rd Members to share ...
1. There are 3 carrier bearing sizes, but we never run the small one, so we only care about 2 sizes ... the 3.062" & 3.250. 3.062" is for 31 spline axles. 3.250 is for 35 spline axles ... typically for drag racing & Off Road Trucks.

2. Strange offers 3 basic case designs:
a. Aluminum HD
b. Nodular Iron HD
c. Nodular Iron Lite

You can see the Nodular Iron cases on my store page HERE (http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/shopping/?ic=6156).
You can see the $249 is the lite case. We run these on most street & race applications unless the power is above 800 hp. Frankly ... we run them on engines 900hp+, because they're the best overall weight to strength 3rd member. Applications where power is above 800 hp and/or the car owner cares more about durability than weight ... run the $329 version. There is about 9# weight difference.

3. Pinion Supports
The "Daytona Pinion Support is a no brainer upgrade. It allows larger bearings to be run on the pinion ... and the pinion NEEDS these larger bearings. This does not require any special ring & pinion. Just normal 9" Ford gears. But the aluminum Daytona Pinion Supports are notorious for expanding & allowing the pinion seal to push out. For this reason we do not run the aluminum Daytona Pinion Support. We only run the iron Daytona pinion support. You can see them HERE (http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/shopping/?ic=6164).

Best wishes.

[cjfirstgen]

The Strange Pro HD aluminum center section is a much different animal then what is being referenced as an option for the OP. The Pro HD has a special channel to feed oil to the pinion bearing for cooling and the seal is retained by a snap ring so it is unable to push out. Furthermore with 3.25" pinion bearing or for 35 spline axles carries a lifetime warranty. No need for concern of this third member and its longevity. Again this is not your normal aluminum center section.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Hey Ron, with the Speedway floater mod lite rear end would it make sense to upgrade to 35 spline axles on the diff. side even tho the drive plate is smaller on the mod lite compared to the grand national.

Would the drive plate on high horse power cars give first on the mod lite at let's say 900hp ?

Ahmad

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron, with the Speedway floater mod lite rear end would it make sense to upgrade to 35 spline axles on the diff. side even tho the drive plate is smaller on the mod lite compared to the grand national.

Would the drive plate on high horse power cars give first on the mod lite at let's say 900hp ?

Ahmad

Good questions. I'll do my best to answer.

a. All common floaters use the same OD & Spline out at the drive plate. Moser, Baer, Curry, Speedway Engineering, etc. are all the same size & spline at the drive plate. This is the same OD & Spline for NASCAR, trans Am, etc.

b. So when you're upsizing the spline in the Diff ... the spline at the drive plate doesn't change.

c. The axle OD is bigger with 35 spline axles. So it is a stronger axle.

d. IMHO the 31 spline is plenty strong for what we do & well above what we do. Again, NASCAR with 900 hp engines, 10" slicks & 3500# ... as well as Trans Am, etc ... run 31 spline axles. IMHO the 35 spline is good move when you're drag racing, with a drag prepared suspension & slicks.

e. The power ... 900 hp or otherwise ... is a factor. But the greater factor is loading ... and that comes from grip. On street tires, I don't see any need for anything above 31 spline.

f. All axles break ... eventually. The floater style rear end is a safety measure to prevent catastrophe from a wheel & axle flange ripping off a car at speed. Plus they're made with better materials & stronger.

g. If you go 35 spline, you can not do that with a Mod Lite. The ID of the opening at the end where the hub rides is not large enough for the larger 35 spline axle. So when we go 35 spline at the diff ... you need to go with Speedway's "Grand National" rear end. It is $100 more & runs bigger bearings in the hubs.

Hope that helps.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Thank you for the reply Ron,that does clear up a lot for me. I knew the 35 spline axle was large but wasnt sure it would work with the mod lite rear. Now I can make a game plan on parts needed when I call you.

Ahmad

[JKnight]

For a mostly-street application I really like Jay's approach for the low-maintenance, OEM engineering of the hubs and parts availability. I think it's worth the tradeoff of reduced strength given the street application.

[T_Raven]

The Strange Pro HD aluminum center section is a much different animal then what is being referenced as an option for the OP. The Pro HD has a special channel to feed oil to the pinion bearing for cooling and the seal is retained by a snap ring so it is unable to push out. Furthermore with 3.25" pinion bearing or for 35 spline axles carries a lifetime warranty. No need for concern of this third member and its longevity. Again this is not your normal aluminum center section.

Good point. I had to look and compare the Pro HD to the light one. I think the Pro HD would be fine for what I'd do with it.