Consensus on big bar/soft spring?

[bergers59]

I'm trying to make a decision whether I want to go big bar/soft spring, or soft bar/stiff spring. From the research I've done, I've mostly found articles pertaining to late model asphalt cars rather than autocross. From what I can understand, soft springs are good for rougher surfaces(parking lots for autocross?) and making the tires work. I intend to run c prepared(slicks) and maybe a few 200tw events. Car will be 80% at track, so ride quality is of little concern. It seems as though BBSS requires different geometry(less camber change) to accommodate increased dive, and more testing/tuning to setup, is this true? I understand its a subjective question, but which setup is best for my application?

[Rod P]

but which setup is best for my application?

that choice is mostly decided from training and driving style...I have driven and raced both in other cars for testing

[BMR Sales]

that choice is mostly decide from training and driving style...I have driven and raced both in other cars for testing

I agree. I like a RaceCar stiff, but that is not for everybody!

[bergers59]

So one isn't faster than the other? Why are more people switching to a BBSS setup recently?

[SSLance]

There is a big long explanation as to why that Ron Sutton I'm sure could explain better than I, but in a simple form...having a high travel setup lets one configure the geometry to work best in all areas of a turn and the straights as well.

With a super stiff spring setup, the static geometry is what it is pretty much all of the time. You dial in camber to help the outside front tire contact patch, but completely give up the contact patch on the inside front tire.

With a front suspension that travels, you can maximise the contact patch on both front tires in a turn. Aren't two tires gripping better than one?

Watch this video to see how well a soft spring\big bar setup helps make a G-Body turn.

fCilKzYnDVk

[bergers59]

point definitely taken, but could you not compensate for the stiffer spring rate car by making the dynamic camber change larger for a smaller distance of travel?
Another thing I just thought of, since I intend to run c prepared and I intend to get the car as low as I can, would running a softer spring rate and higher travel limit my static ride height setting?

[Ron Sutton]

point definitely taken, but could you not compensate for the stiffer spring rate car by making the dynamic camber change larger for a smaller distance of travel?
Another thing I just thought of, since I intend to run c prepared and I intend to get the car as low as I can, would running a softer spring rate and higher travel limit my static ride height setting?

I'd like to suggest you look at it a different way. We don't care where the CG is when the car is sitting in the pits. We care where the CG is out there in turn 6 ... just before turn in.

:cheers:

[bergers59]

:idea: ohhhhhhhhhhh

[Ron Sutton]

:idea: ohhhhhhhhhhh

It is/was pretty common to set-up a car low, with the crank centerline (at the balancer) at 12" above ground "to get the mass low". Then with a stiff front spring set-up, the car may travel (compress) 1" ... so this mass is 1" lower with the crank centerline at 11". Modern, high travel set-ups, may place the crank centerline at 13". Then travel the front end 3" to 4.5" under braking, before turn in. That puts the crank centerline at 8.5" to 10" depending upon the travel strategy.

If we put that mass at 8.5" ... the cornering speed capability compared to it being at 11" ... is a significant difference. All things being equal ... contact patch, car weight, track width, optimized spring & bar rates ... the car with the lower CG can carry significantly more speed. The other bonus is, the front end is loaded more from static load transfer of the front end being 3"-4.5" lower. This is in addition to the dynamic load transfer from braking g-forces.

Lastly, combined with the strategy of running the car flatter (less roll angle) increases the loading on the inside front tire ... increasing it's grip ... adding to the total grip the front end has. We can't go faster through a corner than the front end has grip. That needs to be our focus. Running a low roll strategy ... say 1° ... keeps the inside tires loaded more than a high roll strategy around 3°.

Make sense?

:thumbsup:

[Rod P]

It is/was pretty common to set-up a car low, with the crank centerline (at the balancer) at 12" above ground "to get the mass low". Then with a stiff front spring set-up, the car may travel (compress) 1" ... so this mass is 1" lower with the crank centerline at 11". Modern, high travel set-ups, may place the crank centerline at 13". Then travel the front end 3" to 4.5" under braking, before turn in. That puts the crank centerline at 8.5" to 10" depending upon the travel strategy.

If we put that mass at 8.5" ... the cornering speed capability compared to it being at 11" ... is a significant difference. All things being equal ... contact patch, car weight, track width, optimized spring & bar rates ... the car with the lower CG can carry significantly more speed. The other bonus is, the front end is loaded more from static load transfer of the front end being 3"-4.5" lower. This is in addition to the dynamic load transfer from braking g-forces.

Lastly, combined with the strategy of running the car flatter (less roll angle) increases the loading on the inside front tire ... increasing it's grip ... adding to the total grip the front end has. We can't go faster through a corner than the front end has grip. That needs to be our focus. Running a low roll strategy ... say 1° ... keeps the inside tires loaded more than a high roll strategy around 3°.

Make sense?

:thumbsup:



ummff! know it all :BlahBlah: :lmao:

[SSLance]

See... Just like I said... http://www.winstonsalemskyscrapers.com/forum/images/smilies/whistlingemoticon.gif

[Vince@Meanstreets]

ummff! know it all :BlahBlah: :lmao:

told you:hitaxeonthehead:


im in it for the looks.

[bergers59]

It all makes sense, like most of your posts though I need to digest it to be able to apply it :headspin:

[chetly]

Listening to anyone other than A 6 time CP National Champion would be rather pointless.

Therefore, contact Mike Maier of Mike Maier Inc. He's leaving for Wisconsin tomorrow for Optima Event at Road America but will be back in the office on Tuesday. He'll then be leaving again later next week fo the SCCA solo National in Lincoln Nebraska where if he wins, he'll hold the record for most overall National Championships in CP with 7. Right now he's tied for the most.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Listening to anyone other than A 6 time CP National Champion would be rather pointless.

Therefore, contact Mike Maier of Mike Maier Inc. He's leaving for Wisconsin tomorrow for Optima Event at Road America but will be back in the office on Tuesday. He'll then be leaving again later next week fo the SCCA solo National in Lincoln Nebraska where if he wins, he'll hold the record for most overall National Championships in CP with 7. Right now he's tied for the most.

pointless? Not following.

Auto cross road course and street all tune different. In my opinion Auto x is a completely different animal when it comes to tuning and suspension design.

With the technology in chassis rigidity, shock tuning, shock valving and accurate spring rates going on now you can get away with less bar. Let your geometry work.

[alwaysracin]

I totally agree autocross setup is different than any other form of Motorsports.

Ron, how many SCCA autocross nationals champions are using your setup or advice? Who?


Scott Fraser

[Rod P]

I totally agree autocross setup is different than any other form of Motorsports.

Ron, how many SCCA autocross nationals champions are using your setup or advice? Who?


Scott Fraser

easy scooter! Ron's pretty new to the autocross culture....give him a few and we will see top cars using his designs and theory's another 2 or 3 years...hey a title isn't everything, i know a guy who has a national champ win (trophy and record books to prove it) and he was in a class of one so he won by default, and you look at his times for the event he was slower than novice ladies last placer.....but hey he can still claim a title as an SCCA National Champion and you know me Scott and I don't have that claim...and I can still point you in the right direction when your building your car

[Rod P]

big bar/soft spring?

for me...I run my 68 Camaro with 800 lb front springs and the DSE sway bar...my upper control arms pivot point has been moved from stock (modified Guldstrand) and that creates a jacking effect so essentially my car is in camber moment at all times...the lower control arm has the shock mount moved closer to the ball joint than standard arms....and the triple adjust front shocks i have run a digressive piston....on the rear I run a 325 spring and the triple adjust rear shocks i have run a digressive piston, I use the Helwig Protour rear bar....the weight of my car is 3150 with full interior, radio, heater and Cage the engine is a 6.0 LS.....

my set up is big bar/medium spring


hope that helps

[Greg from Aus]

I totally agree autocross setup is different than any other form of Motorsports.

Ron, how many SCCA autocross nationals champions are using your setup or advice? Who?


Scott Fraser

Ron comes here and offers his knowledge, and you berate him, nice work. :EmoteClueless:

[chetly]

pointless? Not following.

Auto cross road course and street all tune different. In my opinion Auto x is a completely different animal when it comes to tuning and suspension design.

With the technology in chassis rigidity, shock tuning, shock valving and accurate spring rates going on now you can get away with less bar. Let your geometry work.

The OP specificly said he'd be running C prepared, or CP as I put it. So yeah, talking to anyone other than a 6 time national CP Champion is in my mind pointless.

Also, Mike took his "autocross" setup to Sears Point for the Shelby Nationals and was in the top 5 of times but was the only one in the top 5 on a 200tw tire. So, in my option autocross, road racing and street driving can all use the same suspension settings.

[chetly]

easy scooter! Ron's pretty new to the autocross culture....give him a few and we will see top cars using his designs and theory's another 2 or 3 years...hey a title isn't everything, i know a guy who has a national champ win (trophy and record books to prove it) and he was in a class of one so he won by default, and you look at his times for the event he was slower than novice ladies last placer.....but hey he can still claim a title as an SCCA National Champion and you know me Scott and I don't have that claim...and I can still point you in the right direction when your building your car

Comparing Mikes 6 CP national championships to "some guy" who won by default is a slap in the face to Mike. CP for the longest time was one of the most contested classes at an SCCA National Finals event. His wins were far from a one person class...

[chetly]

Ron comes here and offers his knowledge, and you berate him, nice work. :EmoteClueless:


Berate how? He simply asked a simple question as to who is national competitive in an autocross environment running his setup.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

:tv_happy: :catfight: :lmao:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The OP specificly said he'd be running C prepared, or CP as I put it. So yeah, talking to anyone other than a 6 time national CP Champion is in my mind pointless.

Also, Mike took his "autocross" setup to Sears Point for the Shelby Nationals and was in the top 5 of times but was the only one in the top 5 on a 200tw tire. So, in my option autocross, road racing and street driving can all use the same suspension settings.

As national Dog day was yesterday I'm not going to do any leash tugging today. I'll let the pro's do that. :lmao:

Having dialed in a couple Solo I, Solo II, drag race and big track high speed turnie cars in my day I'll stick to my opinion. None of which were National Champions or Saviours of Nazereth mind you but most improved over base. :captain1:

[dontlifttoshift]

Chetly, your fanboism always comes off snobbish and rude. Mike is a smart guy, anyone that has talked to him knows that.

Your advice is good though. If I wanted a CP Mustang, Maier would be the first call I would make, but it wouldn't be the only homework I did.

[Rod P]

Comparing Mikes 6 CP national championships to "some guy" who won by default is a slap in the face to Mike. CP for the longest time was one of the most contested classes at an SCCA National Finals event. His wins were far from a one person class...

better untie your panties "chetly" I am not putting Mike down...Mike and myself go way back...unless you know me shut your pie hole. The point was "titles" if you have them or dont doesn't make the answer right or wrong.... if your going to act like a key board warrior at least use your real name if you have something relevant to add then do so other wise move along...I think everyone here knows me in the real world I'm not just some forum jockey and I will be straight foreword, I dont toss around keyboard balls son I have brass ones....

[chetly]

better untie your panties "chetly" I am not putting Mike down...Mike and myself go way back...unless you know me shut your pie hole. The point was "titles" if you have them or dont doesn't make the answer right or wrong.... if your going to act like a key board warrior at least use your real name if you have something relevant to add then do so other wise move along...I think everyone here knows me in the real world I'm not just some forum jockey and I will be straight foreword, I dont toss around keyboard balls son I have brass ones....

Big words from someone across the country. As for your stupid key board warrior comment, my friends do call my Chet or Chetly so I am using my real name. But, just in case you want to shut my pie hole for me I'll gladly send you my address and I'll gladly place my steel toe boots firmly against your brass ones...

[chetly]

Chetly, your fanboism always comes off snobbish and rude. Mike is a smart guy, anyone that has talked to him knows that.

Your advice is good though. If I wanted a CP Mustang, Maier would be the first call I would make, but it wouldn't be the only homework I did.


Fanboism? I'm just stating facts that I know as true. Yes, Mike and I are good friends. So what. That's not fanboism.

[Greg from Aus]

Fanboism? I'm just stating facts that I know as true. Yes, Mike and I are good friends. So what. That's not fanboism.

After the way you act, I'm not sure if Mike would be impressed with being associated.

[chetly]

After the way you act, I'm not sure if Mike would be impressed with being associated.

Opinions vary, thanks for yours.

[chetly]

I don't understand how people call me a fanboi for recommending talking to Mike when the OP originally asked about suspension for a class that Mike has dominated for the last 8-10 years.

Yet, when people recommend Ron Sutton for anything that's perfectly fine. Sounds like there is some people around here are fanbois of Ron as well.

To each their own...

[Rod P]

Big words from someone across the country. As for your stupid key board warrior comment, my friends do call my Chet or Chetly so I am using my real name. But, just in case you want to shut my pie hole for me I'll gladly send you my address and I'll gladly place my steel toe boots firmly against your brass ones...

:lmao:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

:catfight: :lmao: Big words from someone across the country. As for your stupid key board warrior comment, my friends do call my Chet or Chetly so I am using my real name. But, just in case you want to shut my pie hole for me I'll gladly send you my address and I'll gladly place my steel toe boots firmly against your brass ones...

:catfight: :lmao: Next time you are in town Rod let me know, I'll bring the blanket! :lmao: Chet, get your car ready we are gonna have a drive off. :bitchslap: :stirthepot: :snapout: :lmao: :lmao:

I had to take a step back and make sure I wasn't on C-C or AR15.com.

That's some good stuff Chet. :lol: We have all done business with Mike Chett and value his knowledge but WTF, should we just push all of our tool boxes and cheat sheet into the bay? Im gonna quote you as much as I can so you can stop back peddling with this editing.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I don't understand how people call me a fanboi for recommending talking to Mike when the OP originally asked about suspension for a class that Mike has dominated for the last 8-10 years.

Yet, when people recommend Ron Sutton for anything that's perfectly fine. Sounds like there is some people around here are fanbois of Ron as well.

To each their own...

Like a two day old tuna sandwich in my truck parked in Dublin. You come off a bit strong. just sayin

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Fanboism? I'm just stating facts that I know as true. Yes, Mike and I are good friends. So what. That's not fanboism.

After the way you act, I'm not sure if Mike would be impressed with being associated.

Opinions vary, thanks for yours.

i'd be a tad embarrassed myself. actually I am right now.

[dhutton]

I don't understand how people call me a fanboi for recommending talking to Mike when the OP originally asked about suspension for a class that Mike has dominated for the last 8-10 years.

Yet, when people recommend Ron Sutton for anything that's perfectly fine. Sounds like there is some people around here are fanbois of Ron as well.

To each their own...

It's your tone. You come across as an arrogant nut hugger/leg humper. Notch it down and folks will listen to what you have to say. You are doing your friend Mike a huge disservice.

Don

[Ron in SoCal]

Chetly, please man. Everybody knows Mike and loves him. We know you do too.

Making an argument in your favor by knocking another is simply deflection from the real issue being discussed. My high school girlfriend taught me that.

What are we fighting about, err discussing again? :military:

[Ron in SoCal]

'arrogant nut hugging leg humper' :lmao: :lmao:

Mind if I borrow that sometime Don?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

'arrogant nut hugging leg humper' :lmao: :lmao:

Mind if I borrow that sometime Don?

ahhh that was a Yodi-ism .....those that remember cringe, those that don't feel blessed. :tv_happy:

[SSLance]

Everyone knows I'm running a tempered version of a big bar soft spring setup and while I don't have any National titles under my name yet, I have had more than 1 multiple time national title holders mention to me after watching my car run in person that my car is faster than it should be.

Does that count? :stirthepot:

I also don't believe that Ron is the only one using this type of setup. Watch a Cup car run at just about any small track or road course and watch the front suspension for more than just a couple laps then get back to the class here about what you see going on.

That doesn't mean that a big spring soft bar setup is wrong either, it's just a whole 'nother animal. If someone wants to run it, I say go for it. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. It'll be settled out on the track...eventually.

[chetly]

Chetly, please man. Everybody knows Mike and loves him. We know you do too.

Making an argument in your favor by knocking another is simply deflection from the real issue being discussed. My high school girlfriend taught me that.

What are we fighting about, err discussing again? :military:

I don't remember knocking anyone. Just stated some facts about what Mike is able to do with a so-called "autocross" setup.

[WSSix]

EDIT: Never mind. I'm staying out of it. Good luck OP. Take in lots of information and decide what works best for you.

[alwaysracin]

WOW, quick with Ron's forum attack dogs! I did not post the question to start an argument. Everyone needs to calm down. It was a simple question to Ron.



I am new to this group and asking about Ron's specific autox background. Did I bring up a touchy subject? I would not got to a proctologist to get my teeth cleaned but without checking the background you might end up there. I am asking because like myself Ron might have been sent to other states to help set up suspension on autocross cars. I have never seen him at local SCCA or AAS events locally, so I figured he might go out of state. How else are you going to learn a new form of racing without testing?

Rodney,
I agree a national title is not everything but it does take the small pond out of the mix. It does prove you have an idea about setup or someone who helps you does. You are incorrect about being a national champion because no one else is in the class. You would be a national winner not champion and would not get the national champion jacket.

Why are you not using his set up tips? (never mind, It doesn't matter)

Greg,
I am trying to keep this nice. Name calling is childish. It was a simple question.

Lance,
Cup races are circle track and very different than auto crossing. They do not have any quick transitions.

WS6,
Smart Move.

You can ask any local fast autoxer and most likely they are more than willing to help you. We all like the challenge and competition.

other than hearing from Ron. I am not reposting on this topic. I wrote to help but it wasn't taken as such


Ron,
I am still waiting. You always seem to duck out when asked a real question.


Scott Fraser

[GregWeld]

The OP specificly said he'd be running C prepared, or CP as I put it. So yeah, talking to anyone other than a 6 time national CP Champion is in my mind pointless.

Also, Mike took his "autocross" setup to Sears Point for the Shelby Nationals and was in the top 5 of times but was the only one in the top 5 on a 200tw tire. So, in my option autocross, road racing and street driving can all use the same suspension settings.



Wait... WHAT?? I was there.... The Shelby Mini Nats as they are called -- is NOT A RACE -- It's a fun event where for one session - anyone that cares to, can go out and "race".... This is totally GENTLEMAN racing -- not real racing... Nobody is going to take the other guys line - there's no fender bashing - it's for FUN.

Mike is a seriously fast guy -- I consider him and Brianne my friends. I have a Mustang and I wouldn't hesitate to call him for advice or parts. I have his parts on my car... and if I was AUTO CROSSING, and drove his style -- I'd copy him in a heartbeat.

I've sat in a room and listened to Mike and Hobaugh (super good buddies) go round and round about the way each other tunes their cars suspension... Both of them appears to be right --- FOR THEM. Mike likes his car one way - Hobaugh another... Doesn't make either of them right or wrong. Each can beat the other on any given day and have done so many times.

If I was the OP --- I'd certainly call Mike for his invaluable advice and stellar parts. But I wouldn't stop there. Different driving styles require different set ups... and sadly - since most of us aren't race car guys - we don't get the chance to drive many different set ups to know what is going to work for us. Some guys do really well with a real edgy set up. I'd wreck that in turn 2... I need a more forgiving set up that allows me to recover...

What's my point?? Don't be a one horse "this is the way it has to be" kinda guy... Talk to lots of people and try to find a suspension set up that works for you and your style, and what you want out of the car. Being closed minded and arguing about one way, or the highway, just shows ignorance. Be open and honest, learn and experiment.

[camcojb]

Well, this thread has sure gone sideways. Lets get back on topic and drop the personal shots. That doesn't fly here.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yeah don't get this closed up you hell hounds. Play nice!!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

WOW, quick with Ron's forum attack dogs! I did not post the question to start an argument. Everyone needs to calm down. It was a simple question to Ron.



I am new to this group and asking about Ron's specific autox background. Did I bring up a touchy subject? I would not got to a proctologist to get my teeth cleaned but without checking the background you might end up there. I am asking because like myself Ron might have been sent to other states to help set up suspension on autocross cars. I have never seen him at local SCCA or AAS events locally, so I figured he might go out of state. How else are you going to learn a new form of racing without testing?

Rodney,
I agree a national title is not everything but it does take the small pond out of the mix. It does prove you have an idea about setup or someone who helps you does. You are incorrect about being a national champion because no one else is in the class. You would be a national winner not champion and would not get the national champion jacket.

Why are you not using his set up tips? (never mind, It doesn't matter)

Greg,
I am trying to keep this nice. Name calling is childish. It was a simple question.

Lance,
Cup races are circle track and very different than auto crossing. They do not have any quick transitions.

WS6,
Smart Move.

You can ask any local fast autoxer and most likely they are more than willing to help you. We all like the challenge and competition.

other than hearing from Ron. I am not reposting on this topic. I wrote to help but it wasn't taken as such


Ron,
I am still waiting. You always seem to duck out when asked a real question.


Scott Fraser gonna leave this here. I'm sure he's busy doing something Scott. Ducking out? Rons attack dogs? We all show respect and respect each other. Someone has to remind the new guys that this is a community of friends and doesn't have to start with name calling, chest thumping and call outs. I for one don't have a g******* thing to prove to any one. Main goal in life is to provide for my family. Having fun with cars is a side effect. :)

[Rod P]

I am re-posting my answers because I believe they were lost in the scuttle

big bar/soft spring?


that choice is mostly decided from training and driving style..


for me...I run my 68 Camaro with 800 lb front springs and the DSE sway bar...my upper control arms pivot point has been moved from stock (modified Guldstrand) and that creates a jacking effect so essentially my car is in camber moment at all times...the lower control arm has the shock mount moved closer to the ball joint than standard arms....and the triple adjust front shocks i have run a digressive piston....on the rear I run a 325 spring on a triangulated 4 link and the triple adjust rear shocks i have run a digressive piston, I use the Helwig Protour rear bar....the weight of my car is 3150 with full interior, radio, heater, full tank and Cage the engine is a 6.0 LS.....

my set up is big bar/medium spring
and even with the poundage of springs I run you can see how my car fully compresses coming off the rumble strips at 90mph at the Vegas Track


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/2014%20events/zzzzz_zpsbfx4pllv.jpg


hope that helps

[bergers59]

:underchair:

Thank Rod, it does help, even all of the banter in some way has helped. Considering suspension setups are subjective, my next question was going to be if there a was middle ground with bar/spring realtionship. However your car shows that there is a middle ground, with an 800lb spring and big bar in front.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,
I am still waiting. You always seem to duck out when asked a real question.


Scott Fraser

Hey guys!

First … I hate this silly bickering. It’s not fun for me … or anyone. I have no desire to participate or extend it. At my age & stage of life, I don’t have anything to prove to anyone. I’ll respond once & hopefully the crap calms down.

A few quick bullet points:
• I have experience in road racing, karts, drag racing & oval racing … with most of my experience in road racing … and am relatively new to autocross competition.
• Autocross IS different ... as are all the 80 different classes of racing I’ve been in.
• Every time I went into a new form of racing … there are always a few guys that tell me my strategies won’t work in this form of racing.
• As a driver, owner, crew chief or driver coach I have 498 personal wins & 22 championships, having won in all 80+ forms of racing I’ve been in.
• As a designer, consultant, trainer, set-up guy … my clients' wins total in the thousands.
• Scott is correct. I only have a small number of currently active autocross clients.
• All have improved. Some have won some local SCCA & GG events. That’s it so far.
• I have a good number of clients with cars being built or modified & expect them to do well too. But only time will tell.

For me, it’s simple …
I have a lot of real world experience in a wide range of racing … that has led to winning success in every series I’ve been in … and I love to help people by sharing that knowledge & experience. Over my lifetime I’ve read a ton of books, went to every workshop I could, tapped into wise veterans as mentors, ran my own cars, done 2500+ test days, ran over 2500 races, etc, etc. A lot of people in my past shared info with me. I feel obligated to share that info forward if someone wants it.

I’m old, comfortable, have no more race teams or cars to run and I’m in a position to share that info through forums, books, workshops & 1-on-1. I really enjoy it … and seems most guys that attend my workshops or read my stuff do too. If I can make a few bucks doing this & my clients are happy … then it’s all good. Scott, you have no interest in running my strategies & why would you? You’re fast … with a lot of successes under your belt with your strategies. I’m not clear on why you’re attacking mine. There is nothing stopping you or anyone from starting your/their own threads on these forums sharing knowledge.

I’m not trying to convert anyone. But I am willing to share advice & knowledge if someone wants it. I only offer advice or info when someone asks. If they want to run my strategy, then I want to help. Want to learn what I have to offer? … Buy a workshop ticket, my book or simply ask a question on my forum threads. No? No worries mate.

There are plenty of other smart, experienced people in this sport. Mike Maier being one of many. Mike & I are old racing buddies. Mike & his brother raced in the same USAC Focus Midget series we did. He could wheel the heck out of them cars too. Mike & I have talked suspension strategies a zillion times. We agree on some things & not on others. He is a super sharp car builder, tuner & driver, as well as having a bajillion autocross wins & championships. You’ll notice he & I are not on here bickering about how to do things.

Should the OP talk to Mike Maier about running CP? Hell yeah! He’s dominated that class with his yellow Mustang. Should the OP also read books, go to workshops, find mentors, etc … I think yes … if he wants to.

Man, this took way too much of my time. Scott, that is why I don’t respond to this crap. That’s 30 minutes of my life wasted.

Best wishes everyone !


:cheers:

[SSLance]

3550# fat car with 40 year old suspension technology underneath it...except for a modern soft spring big bar setup.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RF9UIaC77nCHY89_h5Vg0sj8lSKbNZJ6HbClnFoEer7c=w980-h653-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Q3pwFceC_Dffl3RQU39Sm_c_5ow-66R0ZUtlpu2HxK8-=w720-h358-no

Car runs a 600# spring up front with a 1.5" diameter 0.375" wall front sway bar.

List of cars it beat in last Sunday's autocross in Raw time:

2000 Pontiac Trans AM WS6
2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2013 Scion FR-S
1997 Ford Mustang Cobra
1965 Factory Fi Cobra
2014 Ford Fiesta ST
2013 Scion FR-S
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi
1989 Honda Civic Si
1972 Int'l Harvester Scout II
1992 Chevrolet Corvette
1994 Chevrolet Cavalier
2003 Mazda Miata
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution IX MR
2010 Porsche 911 4S Cab
2014 Nissan 370Z
1998 BMW 328is
1999 Mazda Miata
2011 Subaru WRX
2013 Fiat Abarth
2008 Volkswagen R32
2014 Nissan 370Z
2013 Fiat Abarth
95 Margay Lynx
1991 Mazda miata
2015 Subaru WRX STi
2013 Subaru BRZ
1991 Mazda MX5 Miata
2001 Porsche 911 Turbo
11 Camero
1997 Mazda Miata
1991 Ford Mustang
2008 Volkswagen R32
2013 Chevrolet Camaro
2005 Volkswagen Jetta GLI
2013 Scion FR-S
2015 Subaru WRX
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
2004 Porsche 911
2013 Ford Focus ST
1997 Mazda Miata
1991 Mazda Miata
2015 Ford Mustang GT
1984 Porsche 944
Mazda Mazdaspeed3
2002 Mazda Miata
2008 Mini Cooper
1999 Ford Mustang Cobra
2002 Honda S2000
2007 Mini Couper
2009 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2014 Ford Focus ST
1994 Toyota Tercel
Ford Focus
1967 Pontiac Firebird
2013 Ford Mustang GT
MX5
2013 Fiat Abarth 500c
2015 Scion FRS
2003 Mazda Miata
86 Nissan 300zx
86 Nissan 300 zx
1972 Int'l Harvester Scout II
1990 Mazda Miata
2006 Ford Focus
14 Honda Civic SI
2012 Scion tC
2006 Pontiac gto
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1992 Mazda Miata
2008 Mazda Mazda 3
BMW 328i
2000 Ford Mustang GT
1979 Chevrolet Camaro
95 Miata
09 Honda Fit
00 Mustang
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT

Same car finished 16th out of 64 of the best of the best CAM cars and drivers at CAM East a few weeks ago, with less tire, less brake and less horsepower than a lot of the cars behind it.

This particular car would not finish like it has shown it can many times over...without a finely tuned SSBB setup.

Other cars and setups may be different but to say autocross is a one trick pony that only a stiff spring car can run well at is just incorrect.

[dontlifttoshift]

Sigh.....let me fix that for you.



List of cars that I drove better than they did in last Sunday's autocross in Raw time:


I beat a guy in a ZR1 last weekend, I don't think my car is better than his.

[Jr]

I am re-posting my answers because I believe they were lost in the scuttle

big bar/soft spring?


that choice is mostly decided from training and driving style..


for me...I run my 68 Camaro with 800 lb front springs and the DSE sway bar...my upper control arms pivot point has been moved from stock (modified Guldstrand) and that creates a jacking effect so essentially my car is in camber moment at all times...the lower control arm has the shock mount moved closer to the ball joint than standard arms....and the triple adjust front shocks i have run a digressive piston....on the rear I run a 325 spring on a triangulated 4 link and the triple adjust rear shocks i have run a digressive piston, I use the Helwig Protour rear bar....the weight of my car is 3150 with full interior, radio, heater, full tank and Cage the engine is a 6.0 LS.....

my set up is big bar/medium spring
and even with the poundage of springs I run you can see how my car fully compresses coming off the rumble strips at 90mph at the Vegas Track

[/IMG]


hope that helps

How big is the bar? 1"or 1 1/4"?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

1972 Int'l Harvester Scout II


Same car finished 16th out of 64 of the best of the best CAM cars and drivers at CAM East a few weeks ago, with less tire, less brake and less horsepower than a lot of the cars behind it.

This particular car would not finish like it has shown it can many times over...without a finely tuned SSBB setup.

Other cars and setups may be different but to say autocross is a one trick pony that only a stiff spring car can run well at is just incorrect.

ok right there gives you midwest PIMP status in my book. HAaaaa haaaaa f-n-a :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sigh.....let me fix that for you.



I beat a guy in a ZR1 last weekend, I don't think my car is better than his.

yep, every dog has his day.

[Rod P]

How big is the bar? 1"or 1 1/4"?

the front bar is 1-1/8" Hollow, Anti-Roll Bar Rate: 1532 lb/in.

the rear bar is 3/4" hollow, heat treated with 3 adjustable rates
rate 225: Acts like a: 21.49 mm bar
rate 240: Acts like a: 21.85 mm bar
rate 255: Acts like a: 22.18 mm bar

[Rod P]

yep, every dog has his day.

:popcorn2: this dog is still waiting

[SSLance]

Thanks for the props Donny, means a lot to me coming from a driver of your caliber. I'm trying to be as good as I can get.

That International Harvestor is a Good Guys winner btw... ;) It is bad arse...

[dontlifttoshift]

I'm glad you see it that way.

I'm a hack, though.....That Mason kid, he can wheel.

[GregWeld]

I have lots of video of me passing people.... I have lots of video of people passing me... My car is faster than I am. LOL

[craig510]

For a "big bar setup" the effective spring rate of the bar needs to be greater than the effective spring rate of your coils. This pulls the inside tire up and will compress the suspension due to cornering loads. Unless you have a silly light spring rate 1.125" bar ain't gonna do it. You will need a 1.375"+ diameter before you get into big bar territory.

[DBasher]

I have lots of video of MY HOOD.... I have lots of video of MY DASH.... My car is faster than I am. LOL

Fixed it for ya buddy!

Lots of talk about what works best for the individual, different driving styles and what not. What about the guy building a car with zero experience on a road course?

Greg you've got three track cars and I'm sure they're all set up different. The mustang with Ron's secret sauce, the Lotus I'm guessing is stiffer and lighter with more aero and then the Miata....which is, um...a Miata. Which do you feel the most confident in?

:thumbsup:

[Che70velle]

For a "big bar setup" the effective spring rate of the bar needs to be greater than the effective spring rate of your coils. This pulls the inside tire up and will compress the suspension due to cornering loads. Unless you have a silly light spring rate 1.125" bar ain't gonna do it. You will need a 1.375"+ diameter before you get into big bar territory.

Craig, don't get excited over the actual sizing of the bars. Pay attention to the actual rate of each bar. The 1 1/8" bar on the front of Rods car is rated at 1532 lb/in.(wow!) For comparison sake, my "bigger" 1 3/8" DSE bar on the front of my Chevelle is rated at something like 820ish. The larger 1 1/2" splined bar setup, offered by DSE, is rated at just over 1000 lbs.
I ran the BBSS setup on my asphalt late models, and understand what is needed as a fine tuned system to make this setup fast. Shock valving is the most critical. I posted on my build thread a couple years back that I was going to attempt a BBSS setup on my Chevelle, and wondered then what people would think, so this thread is interesting to me, to say the least...can do without the bickering though.

[Sieg]

Shock valving is the most critical.

BINGO! :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Fixed it for ya buddy!

Lots of talk about what works best for the individual, different driving styles and what not. What about the guy building a car with zero experience on a road course?

Greg you've got three track cars and I'm sure they're all set up different. The mustang with Ron's secret sauce, the Lotus I'm guessing is stiffer and lighter with more aero and then the Miata....which is, um...a Miata. Which do you feel the most confident in?

:thumbsup:


Great question Basher!! Not really relevant to this particular thread but here goes it:

Let's discuss before and after....

The Mustang was a complete disaster for handling... it was outdated... worn out... had cracked suspension parts - bushings that were frozen... shocks that were the worst worn out crap many people had ever seen. It's a track car... it's a few years old... stuff wasn't up to snuff. I didn't know any better. I only knew that I couldn't keep up with similar cars.

Enter the forensic teardown and measurements of what was... and a fresh sheet of paper and calcs by Ron Sutton...

The car is now a pure joy to drive -- videos of before and after confirm that the car works and works really well. Everybody used to pass me.... now - about the only people that pass me are guys with way fatter tires (Big Mikes Cup Car for instance). He used to pass me and I'd never see him again... now I can hang with him and do so without driving hard. I have the Sutton Low Roll High Travel design on my Mustang. The car is amazing. I have complete confidence in the car off line or any line... It's allowed me to work on driving skills rather than my life saving skills... with a series of linked recoveries. It's just flat planted.

I bought the Lotus 2 11 as a back up car... driving it is what tipped me off to how BAD the Mustang was. I USED TO describe the Mustang as "the pissed off bull"... and the Lotus as an adult GoKart.... That description would NOW be - the Mustang is WAY MORE FUN than the Lotus. I drive both with almost the same lap times. The Lotus used to be WAY faster. I may now sell the Lotus - because it's just too much fun to wheel the Mustang. I used to "get thru" the Mustang -- and happily stepped "up" to the Lotus... Now I drive it (the Lotus 2 11) because I have it and it should be driven...

The Lotus has double adjustable Ohlins.... weighs nothing... has plenty of power... steering is quick and light - and it's surgical.... the set up is exactly what the factory specs say to run it at.... the only big changes for handling are the mono ball bushings that replaced the rubber bushings.... and the Camber - and ride height and rake for downforce. The Ohlins are set to factory recommendations. It's an IRS... It runs grippy Yokohama A001 Softs (similar to Hoosier A7's).

The Miata was set up by Hobaugh for his daughter -- and he has auto crossed it and tracked it. With 100 more HP it would be a hoot... it's a "momentum car"... don't lift or you loose any momentum you had. It has some Falkens on it I think... It has adjustable shocks - different springs -- a roll bar... And the only guys that make fun of it are the ones that haven't had a chance to drive it. It's a hoot - sticks like glue - and a guy can really get after "the lines" with this car! YES -- the other cars can pass it... it lacks HP and TQ.... it does not lack FUN or confidence. You can toss it around in the corner - evoke mild oversteer and then just point it where it needs to go and ZOOM ZOOM... like I said - a total hoot! The cheapest, most fun, track car ever. Put some sticky Yoko's or Hoosiers on the little brat and it would be faster... but then I couldn't drive it to the grocery store after tracking it all day.

The Lotus 2 11 is by far the most dangerous to drive... huge rear weight bias (63%).... needs speed to get the aero working... snap oversteers.... and I mean SNAP. I've learned to drive it and catch the oversteer - but it will bite you big time! It's every fast - and is not a beginners car. You go into a corner and lift, or touch the brakes - you're history. It too is a momentum car -- but the momentum is far higher because it's fast. Don't make any mistakes in this car. It needs to be well driven at speed. Over correct as I did from T8 up to T9 at Thunderhill and you have a "tank slapper" on your hands. There's a series of "S" black marks up in that section - just before I spun it. LOL I simply missed the apex at 8 and then tried to correct my line.... and it was Katy bar the door! Bring on your fat tired 600+hp ZR1 and I'll drive by you like you're standing still. It's really well engineered and light as a feather.


I'll take the Mustang any day. NOW! I wouldn't have said that pre "Sutton". That's the answer to "which do you feel most confident in". It's the most neutral handling - glued to the track - predictable - no fuss - just "punch it! I know the road" of all three cars.

[Matt@BOS]

Greg, that is a great endorsement for Good Ron (Sutton)! Sounds like he setup your car so YOU could drive it fast!

[WSSix]

People have touched on this but I think it needs to be specifically pointed out. Everyone drives differently. You have to set the car up for your driving style. That, or you have to retrain yourself how to drive. It might ultimately be a combination of both. However, there's also more than one way to go fast. Combine them all together and figure out what works for you. I still think it's best to listen to lots of different people and decide for yourself what will work for you and your car. This has been a good read after skipping over the bickering. Let's keep the tech up.

[GregWeld]

Greg, that is a great endorsement for Good Ron (Sutton)! Sounds like he setup your car so YOU could drive it fast!



That was baked in the cake. He (Ron Sutton) was brought on to help me... in the most basic ways. Tire pressures... etc. Running two cars, I wanted to LEARN basic car/track management. i.e., if the track is hot - what do I do with the tire pressures etc. When are my tires "hard" (Durometer). Teach me how to measure tire temps and what they are telling me. BASICS.

The point is - that HE was able to watch the car - and ask me questions and listened to ME and what I was feeling etc.

I think by the end of the first day - he'd taken 15 or 16 seconds off my lap times.

Fast forward... "Why is everyone passing me in the Mustang? But I can pass them all in the Lotus?" And "The Mustang just wears me out..."

All of the discussions we had were not about being .10 faster. They were solely centered on making the car more fun to drive. Making it predictable. Improvements that made the weekends fun and safe for ME... at whatever level I was capable of driving. I will NEVER tell you I'm fast or that I'm a good driver. It's never been my goal. I just wanted the car to work so I could stop having "oh crap" moments 6 out of 10 turns. The CARS are fast. My guess is - the Mustang would be 4 or so seconds a lap faster with Brian Finch or Hobaugh or Mary Pozzi behind the wheel. I think they'd really like the way the car is set up.

I've gotten the car to understeer (tight) once or twice now.... The minute I let up on the brake - she gets grip and off I go on around the corner... I had very minor oversteer (loose) on exit under power. Mentioned this to Ron and with a minor adjustment on the shocks (triple JRi's) that disappeared. The car is happy. The understeer was induced because I'm so much more confident in the car that I can hammer the entry harder - brake later - and explore late apex lines etc that I NEVER would have attempted prior to the "fix".

I was going to name my "team" - Tasmanian Devil Racing - I spun every track event. Now my lap times are faster than the group I run with and I don't spin or even come close to it. I did go off track at T3 at Sonoma on exit - kept it in the dirt until I could feather back on track for T4 - and I hardly even lifted on the throttle... I was WAY off line into the turn (3) - which had me exit wide - I knew this was going to happen when I entered the turn... I just got lazy on a pass and didn't bring the car back to where it should have been. In the old car - I wouldn't have made the pass - and had I gotten off line I would have been in the wall at T3 instead of a "ho hum I have two in the dirt". When flagged for my indiscretion - the President of the club asked what happened - I told him - (he's run nose and tail with me) he waves me back out and says "GO GET 'EM". :thumbsup:

[mfain]

I'm trying to make a decision whether I want to go big bar/soft spring, or soft bar/stiff spring. From the research I've done, I've mostly found articles pertaining to late model asphalt cars rather than autocross. From what I can understand, soft springs are good for rougher surfaces(parking lots for autocross?) and making the tires work. I intend to run c prepared(slicks) and maybe a few 200tw events. Car will be 80% at track, so ride quality is of little concern. It seems as though BBSS requires different geometry(less camber change) to accommodate increased dive, and more testing/tuning to setup, is this true? I understand its a subjective question, but which setup is best for my application?

I've been watching this thread some, and I decided to throw in a couple of cents worth. OP, you are right in that the BBSS (high travel/low roll) works because of the geometry changes the high travel produces - for example, caster gain that results in correct camber movement for BOTH tires, not just the outside tire when they are turned. After studying Ron's posts (and many other sources on the subject) and talking with Ron personally, I made the move and cut several thousand dollars of C6 suspension out of my unfinished project track car and started over. To make a long story short, there isn't a piece of the car forward of the firewall that wasn't cut, moved, or massaged to accommodate big tires traveling 4 inches in compression (with proper geometry) and still being able to turn without hitting something- frame rails, front cross-member, sway bar mounts, inner fender wells. etc. I guess I'm saying that your decision on whether or not to go BBSS should involve careful analysis and preliminary design work to see the extent of the changes required and to see if all of the effort and expense is worth it to you. It is more than changing the springs and sway bar on a production-based vehicle. Good luck with your project.

Pappy

[Ron Sutton]

People have touched on this but I think it needs to be specifically pointed out. Everyone drives differently. You have to set the car up for your driving style. That, or you have to retrain yourself how to drive. It might ultimately be a combination of both. However, there's also more than one way to go fast. Combine them all together and figure out what works for you. I still think it's best to listen to lots of different people and decide for yourself what will work for you and your car. This has been a good read after skipping over the bickering. Let's keep the tech up.

Trey, I totally agree.

When I was in racing, we didn't set-up cars to suit the driver. We set-up the car to be fastest & taught the driver how to drive it optimally. Every 1/10 of a second mattered. Our joke used to be, "Do you care how the car feels or how winning feels?" But in sportsman racing, track days, pro touring, etc ... I take a different approach, because the top goal is often having fun, more than winning. In that case, we do want to set-up the car to fit the driver. At the end of the day, we want the car to inspire confidence, be fun to drive & be fast. So we're not worried about 1/10 of a second.

Some may think I only do high travel/low roll set-ups today. But that's not accurate. In the initial consultation, I explain the pros & cons of the 4 common set-ups.

1. Conventional low travel/high roll (around 1" travel & 3° roll) - provides more grip & confidence on corner entry under braking. Allows the driver to drive in deeper & brake harder. But carries less mid-corner speed. Provides moderate corner exit grip.

2. Modern high travel/low roll (around 3" travel & 1° roll)- has less grip on entry. Requires the driver to brake earlier & softer. Provides more grip & confidence through the corners & carries more mid-corner speed. Provides superior corner exit grip.

3. Moderate travel & roll is an in-between set-up of the #1 & #2. Typically around 2" travel & 2° roll. Achieves a balance of the traits from #1 & #2.

4. Low travel/low roll (around 1" travel & 1-2° roll) - provides high grip on corner entry under braking. Has narrow sweet spot where the car turns well. If under driven, tends to push. If over driven, car is loose or free. Requires top notch driver feel & control.

After they understand these options & their traits ... then my client guides me on what they want. Most of my clients choose #2 or #3. But regardless, I know how to calculate the spring & bar rates ... if I have all the key info on the car ... to achieve whichever strategy my client wants. The choice doesn't matter to me, because I'm not driving it. All I want them to be is happy with their car. My joy is when they call me after running it & say the car handles amazing. :thumbsup:


:cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

People have touched on this but I think it needs to be specifically pointed out. Everyone drives differently. You have to set the car up for your driving style. That, or you have to retrain yourself how to drive. It might ultimately be a combination of both. However, there's also more than one way to go fast. Combine them all together and figure out what works for you. I still think it's best to listen to lots of different people and decide for yourself what will work for you and your car. This has been a good read after skipping over the bickering. Let's keep the tech up.

To elaborate it depends on if the driver is driving correctly. A driver that runs the correct lines for his comfort level of speed with drive easier than a faster car on the incorrect lines.
A neutral or balanced car will drive better no matter who is behind the wheel. Most often its a driver issue that needs tuning.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Trey, I totally agree.

When I was in racing, we didn't set-up cars to suit the driver. We set-up the car to be fastest & taught the driver how to drive it optimally. Every 1/10 of a second mattered. Our joke used to be, "Do you care how the car feels or how winning feels?" But in sportsman racing, track days, pro touring, etc ... I take a different approach, because the top goal is often having fun, more than winning. In that case, we do want to set-up the car to fit the driver. At the end of the day, we want the car to inspire confidence, be fun to drive & be fast. So we're not worried about 1/10 of a second.

Some may think I only do high travel/low roll set-ups today. But that's not accurate. In the initial consultation, I explain the pros & cons of the 4 common set-ups.

1. Conventional low travel/high roll (around 1" travel & 3° roll) - provides more grip & confidence on corner entry under braking. Allows the driver to drive in deeper & brake harder. But carries less mid-corner speed. Provides moderate corner exit grip.

2. Modern high travel/low roll (around 3" travel & 1° roll)- has less grip on entry. Requires the driver to brake earlier & softer. Provides more grip & confidence through the corners & carries more mid-corner speed. Provides superior corner exit grip.

3. Moderate travel & roll is an in-between set-up of the #1 & #2. Typically around 2" travel & 2° roll. Achieves a balance of the traits from #1 & #2.

4. Low travel/low roll (around 1" travel & 1-2° roll) - provides high grip on corner entry under braking. Has narrow sweet spot where the car turns well. If under driven, tends to push. If over driven, car is loose or free. Requires top notch driver feel & control.

After they understand these options & their traits ... then my client guides me on what they want. Most of my clients choose #2 or #3. But regardless, I know how to calculate the spring & bar rates ... if I have all the key info on the car ... to achieve whichever strategy my client wants. The choice doesn't matter to me, because I'm not driving it. All I want them to be is happy with their car. My joy is when they call me after running it & say the car handles amazing. :thumbsup:


:cheers:



oops didn't see your post. :underchair:

[GregWeld]

I will attest to the FUN - FAST - CONFIDENCE feel of the car!!

What that allows me to do then - is to grow into being a better driver. We only do this VERY LITTLE... most guys do what? 3 or 4 track events per year?? Maybe with MONTHS in between?? How good do you really think you're going to be? Better to have the car be good and comfortable... because it will be plenty fast. Only thing I'm going out for is a big sh!t eating grin... and to hang with my friends. Rozelle or Hobaugh or Popp or Steilow or Pozzi.... they're going for the win. Let's face it -- most of us are not in that league. Doesn't mean that with a properly set up car you can't be competitive and be proud of your times... or win a local auto cross... And you'll also soon discover that all the parts in the world - that don't work in harmony - are just a giant pile of expensive parts. That's where the GOAL needs to be set - and the professional brought in BEFORE you buy a bunch of parts and toss half of them in the For Sale section... Or if you've bought the parts and aren't happy -- buying more parts without (yet again) selecting them correctly and without professional advice... is just wasting more time and more money. You're probably a pro in your business.... and don't you think that people that don't consult you FIRST are idiots?? Costing themselves time and money, when all they had to do was get you involved in the beginning??

[Panteracer]

I agree that most of us don't get enough track
time running 3-4 events a year. My viper buddy runs once
or twice a month

I also want to point out budget does dictate some of
the decisions on what we run. My Pantera is mostly set
For me. My firebird is another story. I put some brakes on
the car but needed bigger wheels and better tires before
the brakes could be finished. 4k for wheels 1500 for tires
Now I can do the better brakes. But I could also use some
better shocks. One of the Jri shocks is more than my current
Vikings. Also just spent 1600 on Pantera tires

I elect to keep the car running and slowly improve it
I am also figuring out how to drive the car the best way I
can. Every time I change things it gets better but far from
done. Years ago a new set of tires is what made it better and
we just drove it Bad handling or not and learned how to drive it faster
Change is good but sometimes seat time for now I think is
better

I have been tracking for the last 10-11 years and just started
to do more Autocrossing. For me it is a lot harder to Autocross
than go run a track Don't get me wrong I love tracking but I think
Autocrossing gives you less error and to me more feedback on
how the car is doing
As we say on my Pantera forum Flamesuit on

Bob

[GregWeld]

If it was EASY..... the fat chicks could do it! LOL



Totally agree Bob. As a "hobby" -- it's beginning to get right up there with airplanes (on the cost). EEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAA






I agree that most of us don't get enough track
time running 3-4 events a year. My viper buddy runs once
or twice a month

I also want to point out budget does dictate some of
the decisions on what we run. My Pantera is mostly set
For me. My firebird is another story. I put some brakes on
the car but needed bigger wheels and better tires before
the brakes could be finished. 4k for wheels 1500 for tires
Now I can do the better brakes. But I could also use some
better shocks. One of the Jri shocks is more than my current
Vikings. Also just spent 1600 on Pantera tires

I elect to keep the car running and slowly improve it
I am also figuring out how to drive the car the best way I
can. Every time I change things it gets better but far from
done. Years ago a new set of tires is what made it better and
we just drove it Bad handling or not and learned how to drive it faster
Change is good but sometimes seat time for now I think is
better

I have been tracking for the last 10-11 years and just started
to do more Autocrossing. For me it is a lot harder to Autocross
than go run a track Don't get me wrong I love tracking but I think
Autocrossing gives you less error and to me more feedback on
how the car is doing
As we say on my Pantera forum Flamesuit on

Bob

[Panteracer]

Greg,
I had my Mustang (Chet's now) completely redone
when I first bought the car.. springs, shocks, overides
and brakes... It was my first real track car so I wanted
something that was right before I went out there

Car was soft but would run anywhere on the track
so very easy to drive like yours... tried autocrossing it
once and to me soft is not the way to go in an autocross car

Now I am trying to figure things out as I go plus keep
the Firebird running.. I hate dead cars

Pantera is like your Lotus in handling department.. sticks
great but as you say do not let off in a turn or brake otherwise
it is hard to stop it from spinning.. I have only spun it once on
the track on cold tires and once in front of the world at Optima

Bob

[GregWeld]

Greg,
I had my Mustang (Chet's now) completely redone
when I first bought the car.. springs, shocks, overides
and brakes... It was my first real track car so I wanted
something that was right before I went out there

Car was soft but would run anywhere on the track
so very easy to drive like yours... tried autocrossing it
once and to me soft is not the way to go in an autocross car

Now I am trying to figure things out as I go plus keep
the Firebird running.. I hate dead cars

Pantera is like your Lotus in handling department.. sticks
great but as you say do not let off in a turn or brake otherwise
it is hard to stop it from spinning.. I have only spun it once on
the track on cold tires and once in front of the world at Optima

Bob


Chet absolutely drives the wheels off that car! I've followed him enough to be able to make that statement! He needs to maintain it better - but that's a different discussion.


Here’s what makes me a Sutton Fanboi…. you have no idea how good it (the suspension) can be until you’ve done it - and then you kick yourself for ever having driven such a POS - when it could have been so good.

Only when you’ve driven “ok” or “bad” can you then compare to what is fantastic.

I’m no longer looking for anything “better” — I think this is as good as it can get, given my skinny tire leaf spring car (245's squared)… and the only reason I think that is, because I’m able to run guys down from half a track back before they can get two more turns in…. WTF more do you want than that for a “track day” car. I can say with fact that the CAR allows me to drive that way. It's not my skills. If I had skills, the car would be far faster.

[SSLance]

Someone once explained tire grip with soft spring vs stiff springs to me like this.

When you walk across an ice skating rink, do you walk stiff legged or do you bend your knees and step lightly with each step?

[Rod P]

Someone once explained tire grip with soft spring vs stiff springs to me like this.

When you walk across an ice skating rink, do you walk stiff legged or do you bend your knees and step lightly with each step?

I dont walk on the rink.....I skate this is me at 50 years old I still hustle, I carry a few more pounds, but when I bump those youngens around they give pops room next time....bend those knees!


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/playing%20Hockey/7620_1205391105368_1214789_n_zpsf32a5b39.jpg

[GregWeld]

Let me explain this video and why I'm posting it AGAIN....

This is a SUTTON high travel low roll set up - leaf springs - 245 tires... big brakes... 590ish HP...

First LAP is under YELLOW - we're not allowed to pass at all under YELLOW... WE are not allowed to pass in CORNERS... When watching - you must realize that there are LIMITATIONS on these track days where you can pass... And I know this track well -- and sometimes its just not WORTH IT to take a pass.... you back out and pass when you want to.

There are many times when cars are holding me up -- you'll see instances where I get brake checked... where I could have gone far deeper into a corner and carried a higher corner speed. Remember we aren't allowed to pass in corners.

Watch how many times there are no cars in sight ---- and I catch them and then pass them with ease. This is NOT a horsepower issue... it's a "higher average speed" issue. The guys I'm passing are going as fast as they can - and doing the best they can... they're not braking and letting me by. NOBODY wants to get passed.

Near the end I run into a complete CF of traffic. There is ZERO effort to pass or get caught up in that.... so I just let 'em go - REMEMBER I HAVE RON SUTTON ON THE RADIO TELLING ME ABOUT TRAFFIC.

The whole time I'm on track he's working with me on stuff... he might be telling me to just back off and gain some speed (like a sling shot move) to go around someone... We're talking about corners and dissecting the track... and trying different lines and working on things the entire time I'm out there.

If you don't think this SUSPENSION IS WORKING WELL.... well then there's no helping you... LOL



3HfWJ4C7mJg

[Rod P]

GREAT VIDEO Greg!
the key to any of the suspension choices is balance!
when you assemble the suspension you dont just shove big bars on and soft springs and its all golden.....balance.... what does the car weigh, control arm lengths, pivot points for arms and rear suspension links, wheel base, track width, caster, camber, ride height, spring preload, sway bar ratio's, pivot points from center line, Shock valving and the LIST goes on, but once you have all of that and you combine it to find the sweet spot for that car (here is were experience and knowledge help) you get a car that is easy to push to the limits and has the desired neutral effect,,,and now that you get that... you can lightly tweak the car for under or over-steer to help with each track you encounter

[Ron Sutton]

GREAT VIDEO Greg!
the key to any of the suspension choices is balance!
when you assemble the suspension you dont just shove big bars on and soft springs and its all golden.....balance.... what does the car weigh, control arm lengths, pivot points for arms and rear suspension links, wheel base, track width, caster, camber, ride height, spring preload, sway bar ratio's, pivot points from center line, Shock valving and the LIST goes on, but once you have all of that and you combine it to find the sweet spot for that car (here is were experience and knowledge help) you get a car that is easy to push to the limits and has the desired neutral effect,,,and now that you get that... you can lightly tweak the car for under or over-steer to help with each track you encounter

"Like"

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Greg Weld,
Thanks for the kind words & sharing your experiences. We do have a lot of fun at the track.

:D

[Flash68]

GREAT VIDEO Greg!
the key to any of the suspension choices is balance!
when you assemble the suspension you dont just shove big bars on and soft springs and its all golden.....balance.... what does the car weigh, control arm lengths, pivot points for arms and rear suspension links, wheel base, track width, caster, camber, ride height, spring preload, sway bar ratio's, pivot points from center line, Shock valving and the LIST goes on, but once you have all of that and you combine it to find the sweet spot for that car (here is were experience and knowledge help) you get a car that is easy to push to the limits and has the desired neutral effect,,,and now that you get that... you can lightly tweak the car for under or over-steer to help with each track you encounter

Sounds complicated Rod. :headspin:

[Panteracer]

I also think the shock and spring technology has
come light years recently.. turning knobs actually does
something compared to times of the past.... guys like Ron know how
to interact the two in order to get the most out of a setup

I need to change my hood and front nose on my bird to
get over 100lbs off the front end (hopefully this winter)
then I can measure and weigh things for a real conversation
with Ron

Bob

[SSLance]

Heck, I'm just glad Greg raised his camera a half inch so now I don't have to strain my neck to look over his hood!

:trophy-1302:

Nice driving Greg! Know what I noticed most besides your great lines...nary a whimper from the tires when you turn in to a corner. When you wanted to turn in, it just reacts smoothly and confidently. That makes everything else so much nicer when trying to get faster.

[Rod P]

Sounds complicated Rod. :headspin:

ha ha ha ha ha ...... yes it is! if it was easy everyone would be fast.....now when you getting your ass back out there? and drive? hope your doing well brother its been a minute

[GregWeld]

Heck, I'm just glad Greg raised his camera a half inch so now I don't have to strain my neck to look over his hood!

:trophy-1302:

Nice driving Greg! Know what I noticed most besides your great lines...nary a whimper from the tires when you turn in to a corner. When you wanted to turn in, it just reacts smoothly and confidently. That makes everything else so much nicer when trying to get faster.


I'm right there with ya Lance -- when I watch those videos I'm trying my damnedest to sit up in my chair and and see over.... LOL


I hope people understand the points I'm trying to make using that video.... that is NOT about me... I own the car -- before and after --- I could have NEVER driven like that before the RSRT suspension re-do! NEVER! My driving has improved since we did this - but not because of anything I've done in particular.... but the CAR and the new suspension has allowed RON to turn into a coach instead of a hand holder. His coaching is every bit as valuable as his suspension knowledge. The two do work together and I get it.. but the one thing (car) has to work - before the other can do his job. I used to just fight that car to the death every session.... and as I've said before - now I don't want the sessions, or the weekend to end. I can't tell you how much of a change that has been.

I used to think it was ME... that I just sucked as a driver - that my buddies Charlie / Chet / Pete were just so much better drivers than I was.... that it was braking too deep - or that I was off line - or that I was going too fast for my ability.... I used to tell myself - WTF - It's just an old Mustang... what do you expect? Little did I know what I could expect!

Now -- when I see people WAY down track.... I know I'm catching them and I'm going to do so EASILY... I don't have to drive over my head (very low skill level)... I just know the car is beyond capable. Can't remember where I was on track - and Sutton radios me that the next car(s) to catch is a "X" whatever... Vette I think.... I don't respond to him immediately... but when I do - I told him "oh hell, I'm past them already". LOL. We both got a chuckle going on that one!

Back to Maier -- which kind of started all of this (and also the very unsportsmanlike bickering).... If I was going to auto cross.... I'd be talking to him. I'd be talking to several people... I have ZERO auto cross experience - and don't intend to change that at all. It's just not something I want to do. But I look at SSLance and the gains and improvements he's seen with his car... and it's not a car I would expect to see at ANY auto cross event! You read his thread and you'll see he has had similar improvements to his set up --- and he's done this in stages -- which is the way I would assume most would do. So you don't have to go out and cut your car up to gain some meaningful handling change.

[Rod P]

Sounds complicated Rod. :headspin:

so on the second part of that is why I often recommend using a kit from a single manufacture as much as possible, and what ever they dont make find out what they recommend....thats a great place to start.... like if your going to use Mike Maier suspension stuff and since he doesn't make a shock what does he prefer to run... what does he like for steering components, and so on...and that would be what is optimal for his suspension....

I'm not saying that just because you use one manufactures stuff on the whole car the car will be perfect...I recently worked on a car that had awesome chassis and suspension products built by one single company and once all the measurements that i described earlier where gone over I still had to fix some issues with stuff within allowable parameters....there suspension required tall lower ball joints and the steering rack to be moved upwards different springs than they sold in there kit along with a shock valving change and a bumpsteer kit....

and after that the car was easier to drive and neutral ....that owner is very happy now

its not easy

[Ron Sutton]

its not easy

What ?!?!

:poke:

[bergers59]

I figured I should make this clear and show what stage I'm at. I think its been two years ago now that I bought a camaro with a clean title for reaalllll cheap(with lots of rust). Its purely a skeleton, needing most sheetmetal replaced(roof, quarters, fenders, rockers, trunk, etc...) leaving me a blank slate. I haven't started actual work on the car yet, mostly planning and putting the stock frame rails into solidworks. I intend to build the car all in one shot, so unless something doesn't go to plan there won't be phases. In theory, a thread will be started soon.:lateral: :superhack:

[chetly]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23997

you should check out this thread.

[Payton King]

I may have started a little further out than you are...

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg.html)

I went with Ron Sutton as well on my suspension design

[bergers59]

I may have started a little further out than you are...

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg.html)

I went with Ron Sutton as well on my suspension design

I followed your thread, my car isn't too far off from that. No engine, everything under the car is useless to me except the subframe, and half the body needs to be replaced. There's a reason why family thinks I'm crazy for doing this project. :lostmarbles:

[bergers59]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23997

you should check out this thread.

Definitely have, I've been through the whole thing start to finish 3 times and gone back a lot, it has been of great help.

[Payton King]

Depending on your plan, starting with a rough car is the way to go if you plan on doing something radical.

Looking forward to your build thread

[Ron Sutton]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23997

you should check out this thread.

Man, I love Brian's Camaro. Mike & him did an awesome job on that car.


:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

I may have started a little further out than you are...

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/IMG950631_zpse7746a8b.jpg.html)

I went with Ron Sutton as well on my suspension design

Whew! That baby has come a long way !


:gitrdun:

[Rod P]

been there ...built that

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/body%20build/10648611_10205808688246847_6241083392822447255_o_z psohkmtmsq.jpg




here's the story on my car on BangShift (http://bangshift.com/general-news/sideways/sideways-with-rodney-prouty-an-average-hot-rodders-adventures-in-car-building-and-racing/)

[SSLance]

Didn't anyone ever tell you guys... "Buy the body, build the drivetrain"

:buttkick:

2007

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v362/LSVLance/1985%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/Outside5.jpg

2015

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cUcMuqejR4PJ2DvWobI0GfbCvpzqarl3pynkDjCIdHTe=w960-h637-no

:gitrdun:

[carbuff]

Didn't anyone ever tell you guys... "Buy the body, build the drivetrain"


That's exactly what I did with TOW!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_8387-1_zps7012a26f.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_8387-1_zps7012a26f.jpg.html)

25 year old paint job. It's shows its wear, but put me years ahead on the project!

[Rod P]

...I recently worked on a car that had awesome chassis and suspension products built by one single company and once all the measurements that i described earlier where gone over I still had to fix some issues with stuff within allowable parameters....there suspension required tall lower ball joints and the steering rack to be moved upwards different springs than they sold in there kit along with a shock valving change and a bumpsteer kit....

and after that the car was easier to drive and neutral ....that owner is very happy now

its not easy

to follow up on this....I can not mention some of these customers names (many are top in the industry and dont wish to have this help reveled) I will say that most of the re-configurations done to these top drivers cars was with Rons input...and these drivers look for that sharp edge to help them stay up top...

my own car was under the knife to have Rons help last season and I hurriedly put her back together to move to another state and shop, so Jane isnt even the Jane of last year, but this winter she will have the suspension picked at, re-examined, and move as needed, I know it will be an investment in time and money to Jane back on top along with a second project to run next season....hopefully...I do know that one will be a SEMA car ..that booth is already slotted

[Vince@Meanstreets]

to follow up on this....I can not mention some of these customers names (many are top in the industry and dont wish to have this help reveled) I will say that most of the re-configurations done to these top drivers cars was with Rons input...and these drivers look for that sharp edge to help them stay up top...

my own car was under the knife to have Rons help last season and I hurriedly put her back together to move to another state and shop, so Jane isnt even the Jane of last year, but this winter she will have the suspension picked at, re-examined, and move as needed, I know it will be an investment in time and money to Jane back on top along with a second project to run next season....hopefully...I do know that one will be a SEMA car ..that booth is already slotted

you speak in tongues :poke: :D :popcorn2:

time to do the extreme upgrade rod.

[GregWeld]

This thread came up around the BBQ last night - with SpeedTech and Mary Pozzi and a couple others.... Three things were the main topic.


#1 - How quickly the discussion became NON LAT G like. All said the reason we love Lat G is because it remains a welcoming non flaming website.


#2 - How many DIFFERENT WAYS there were - and how many good manufactures there were - to achieve handling that's right for the task(s).


#3 - Biggest part that could be improved, was the nut behind the wheel. LOL

[Twoblackmarks...]

I dont know what is better or worse, but I believe that if you are gonna drive your car much on the street and use it as a driver.

Softer springs and stiff anti roll bars could make it a bit more comfortable ride maybe.

I may not be right though. Even though maybe hard bushings is the worst comfort killer of all.

I remember reading an old magazine article on second gens.

Herb Adams vs Dick Guldstrand I think it was, they had "soft vs stiff" setup. Different opinions. Same goal.

[SSLance]

I've got PolyUrethane body bushings, 100% delrin suspension bushings, and a Big Bar Soft Spring setup and my car rides fantastic on the street. It's one of my favorite features of this setup, well that and the way it turns at speed.

[GregWeld]

I've got PolyUrethane body bushings, 100% delrin suspension bushings, and a Big Bar Soft Spring setup and my car rides fantastic on the street. It's one of my favorite features of this setup, well that and the way it turns at speed.



Mary Pozzi was very impressed with you and your driving!! Just FYI.

[Che70velle]

Mary Pozzi was very impressed with you and your driving!! Just FYI.

That's a real compliment right there folks! Your the man Lance!

[Rod P]

#3 - Biggest part that could be improved, was the nut behind the wheel.


I agree with this statement more than any other involving car racing...

[SSLance]

Mary Pozzi was very impressed with you and your driving!! Just FYI.

Mary is quite possibly one of the nicest people I have met thru this racing adventure. So many want time from her at an event and from what I have seen she doesn't turn any of them away. True ambassador of the sport.