bending up the Z28 again

[Rod P]

Ken wrecks the 2014 Z28 again...watch the new video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq7jWrBOX9g

[GregWeld]

People wreck when they push hard..... And Ken pushes hard.... nothing to see here... moving on.

[dale68z]

Wow, just WOW. Glad it's not me.

[SSLance]

I was standing there watching when it happened...probably contributed to my less than stellar speed stop results from then on out.

Most amazing part is that happened in the morning session and he made a lap in the autocross session in the afternoon session after bringing another car from home to rob parts from to put that one back together again.

[GregWeld]

Anyone that thinks they can go out and "race" their car --- and not have carnage... is just kidding themselves. Doesn't even have to be a wreck. It can be rear ends - motors - tranny's - I've seen wheels break and do serious damage. I've seen balljoint failures that fold the suspension and wheel up into the fender....

At Sonoma Mini Nats two years ago there was a Porsche so wadded up it was hard to recognize it... and a brand new not even license plated GT500 that was smashed to the windshield in front, and the trunk was in the back seat...

Alex did about 30 grand in damage to the Lotus at Laguna Seca a couple years ago... Thank you Brian Hobaugh for fixing it up! Was all cosmetic.. except for the exhaust system.

My point is -- stuff happens out there. It doesn't take but a split second and you've got a POS to put on/in a trailer.

[SSLance]

I know it happens, it's still a bit different when you are standing there watching it when it happens right before your run though.

And remember, while we are on a race track here...most of these are still street cars.

[GregWeld]

I know it happens, it's still a bit different when you are standing there watching it when it happens right before your run though.

And remember, while we are on a race track here...most of these are still street cars.




Lance --- I wan't making a point to YOU personally -- I was making a point that if people are going to enter their car to "race" (against the clock or otherwise) that they need to be very cognizant that crashes and damage happen.

[DBasher]

My point is -- stuff happens out there. It doesn't take but a split second and you've got a POS to put on/in a trailer.

Exactly why I'm starting with a POS!

[SSLance]

The mechanical failures are what concern me more than a driving error. Jeff lost his brakes and it cost him a car. A very cool and very special car too.

I heard a noise I didn't like at the end of my third session and I knew right away I was putting it on the trailer and wrapping it up. Too damn hot to even think about a thrash to diagnose and possibly fix in less than the 2 hours that were left.

This track was one that will bite you in a second. Almost zero margin for error if you are running 9 or 10 10ths... I wish I would have got more time to get the corners more automatic for me...I was still learning and having to think about which corner was coming up next when I was done for the day. Some parts of it were super fun and I was learning how to make the rest of it fun as well.

[71RS/SS396]

Incidents like this is why most of these "street cars" have no business being on the road course going the speeds they're going. The late model cars you have a fighting chance of being ok... the vintage cars... not so much. I guess we'll just wait until we injure someone severely or worse before we require roll cages, fire systems, and other proper safety equipment.

[wiedemab]

Incidents like this is why most of these "street cars" have no business being on the road course going the speeds they're going. The late model cars you have a fighting chance of being ok... the vintage cars... not so much. I guess we'll just wait until we injure someone severely or worse before we require roll cages, fire systems, and other proper safety equipment.

This is why my car will have a properly padded cage, fire system etc..

Glad that Ken is OK again. This is a good reminder to everyone that things happen - - -Be safe!

[GregWeld]

Dave Gordon and I were just talking about collapsible columns.... I had a vision of t boning a spinning car (or maybe it's me into a K wall) and being strapped in with a 5 point harness -- with a steering column impaling me.... UGH


The new cars are built with impact planned in... crush zones and all that good stuff... my old Mustang has none of that. I do - however - have a fire bottle with nozzles in the engine compartment as well as inside.... I'm wearing a full driver suit - shoes - gloves - helmet - and if in the Lotus - a HANS device and arm restraints. Both cars have electric shut offs exposed and marked... and have removable steering wheels for easier exit if required.

What's my point?? You wad up the front end of the car -- and you catch fire -- and now you can't get out because the wheel has you pinned in... or you back the car into something and it's leaking fuel and you're slumped over with a back injury or a busted arm... and you can't turn off the electrical system... or you get all crossed up and go sideways off into the dirt and catch and roll... upside-down and pinned in cause the door won't open... and fuel is dumping out the trunk because why? Because you aren't running a fuel cell..

This isn't a scare tactic discussion -- I'm just saying that these are the things that not only can - but DO happen... I think about this stuff. I look around my car and make sure that I'm familiar with some of the scenarios I might be in. A collapsible column is the very next "speed part" going in the car.






Incidents like this is why most of these "street cars" have no business being on the road course going the speeds they're going. The late model cars you have a fighting chance of being ok... the vintage cars... not so much. I guess we'll just wait until we injure someone severely or worse before we require roll cages, fire systems, and other proper safety equipment.

[SSLance]

My car is getting a fire system before it goes on a road course again. Already put in the roll bar, race seats, 5 point harnesses and HANS device.

[GregWeld]

My car is getting a fire system before it goes on a road course again. Already put in the roll bar, race seats, 5 point harnesses and HANS device.




And here's why!!! This guys brakes failed at Oregon Raceway Park... running down into the Valkyrie.... the car flies 100 feet... rolls and starts fire.




AeqNnZbC1Z0

[syborg tt]

This post is kinda funny as I made the same comment at the Lateral-G dinner at Sema this past year and everyone looked at me like I had a hole in my head. A few people even said I was being stupid and that I had no clue what I was talking about. The good news for me is Ron Sutton started a thread shortly after Sema ( Safety for Pro-Touring Track Cars ) http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48392 and since he has actually been doing this for sometime people actually believe in him.

Year ago when I was building the Syborg truck I had a fuel cell built with the pumps exposed under the rear bumper (yes I didn't know any better) and then one day I woke up and realized that if you get rear ended on the street there is a good chance that your car is going to catch on fire and possible kill you and anyone in your car or involved in the accident. I even mentioned it to a certain Camaro owner and he said there is only a small chance it could happen to me and guess what shortly after his comment he was in fact rear ended. Guess what he installed a new Race Safe fuel cell in his car after that happened.

**** Happen and your a wiser man for planning for it.

Here is my post from Dec 08, 2014 which is also in Ron's thread.

Ron,

I can't thank you enough for bringing this topic front and center.

I was talking with a few people at Sema about the latest trend in Pro-Touring which was taking our cars out onto the road course. I expressed my concern for the saftey of the driver and the people on the track.

Originally most of the products were designed for the weekend warriors to take there car out to a local Autocross Event or one at the Good Guys show. As we all know when Boys grew up they still have the urge to have the coolest, loudest and fastest car so what starts out as a good thing eventually turns into something in this case that becomes dangerous.

The speeds that these cars are hitting at an autocross event are plenty fast enough to toss a Jersey barrier into the crowd. The weight of the barrier is roughly 600lbs per linear foot and when being hit by a 3,500lb car traveling 40, 50, or 60 mph mean's danger.

That being said now were taking these cars on road courses and doing 100mph plus and God forbid anything goes wrong someone is going to die or be severely injured. If you think about it most Camaro's still have 4 bolts holding the subframe on and of course 4 more bolts tying it to the subframe connectors which in some cases are also bolted on. That's just doesn't seem safe to me.

Now lets talk about the rear suspensions that are either welded to the stock rear stamp steal frame rails which are only spot welded onto the car or in some cases the suspension is actually welded to the rear floor pan. Eventually with the weight of the rear differential, brakes & tires somethings gotta give. Please correct me if I am wrong but I don't think I am. And after talking with a couple chassis builders they are amazed that these cars are allowed on a track without any safety factored into the build of these cars.

Here is what happens when a tires blows out and 160mph and you have a well designed cage in the car. You get to live !! Without out it I am certain Stan wouldn't be here.

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/2010%2009-19%20Stans%20Mustang%20Cobra%20Crash%20%283%29.JPG

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/2010%2009-19%20Stans%20Mustang%20Cobra%20Crash%20%281%29.JPG

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/2010%2009-19%20Stans%20Mustang%20Cobra%20Crash%20%282%29.JPG

and if you think your new car is safe just look at this Camaro.

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/IMG_1489.JPG

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/IMG_1488.JPG

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Builders/Sportmachines/Misc-Stuff/Track-Saftey/IMG_1487.JPG

I think it's time as a group that we need to set up some rules as how to build a car that is not only fun to drive but safe to drive. I also feel that the track should be forcing us to follow some rules or we are going to see more cars like this on the track doing over 120mph.

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Events/2014-Heidts-Challenge/2014%2005-31%20Heidts%20Challenge%20%2835%29.JPG

http://garagescene.net/gallery3/var/resizes/Events/2014-Heidts-Challenge/2014%2005-31%20Heidts%20Challenge%20%2807%29.JPG

I have so much more I would like to say but I am just out of time



Dave Gordon and I were just talking about collapsible columns.... I had a vision of t boning a spinning car (or maybe it's me into a K wall) and being strapped in with a 5 point harness -- with a steering column impaling me.... UGH


The new cars are built with impact planned in... crush zones and all that good stuff... my old Mustang has none of that. I do - however - have a fire bottle with nozzles in the engine compartment as well as inside.... I'm wearing a full driver suit - shoes - gloves - helmet - and if in the Lotus - a HANS device and arm restraints. Both cars have electric shut offs exposed and marked... and have removable steering wheels for easier exit if required.

What's my point?? You wad up the front end of the car -- and you catch fire -- and now you can't get out because the wheel has you pinned in... or you back the car into something and it's leaking fuel and you're slumped over with a back injury or a busted arm... and you can't turn off the electrical system... or you get all crossed up and go sideways off into the dirt and catch and roll... upside-down and pinned in cause the door won't open... and fuel is dumping out the trunk because why? Because you aren't running a fuel cell..

This isn't a scare tactic discussion -- I'm just saying that these are the things that not only can - but DO happen... I think about this stuff. I look around my car and make sure that I'm familiar with some of the scenarios I might be in. A collapsible column is the very next "speed part" going in the car.

[syborg tt]

Another thing people should seriously consider is a Hans Device.

Seriously I have no clue how to embed the video.

So just click the link please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40YatgE_CE

g40YatgE_CE

[Flash68]

Incidents like this is why most of these "street cars" have no business being on the road course going the speeds they're going. The late model cars you have a fighting chance of being ok... the vintage cars... not so much. I guess we'll just wait until we injure someone severely or worse before we require roll cages, fire systems, and other proper safety equipment.

Yeppers. At the end of the day, each individual needs to be responsible for his/her safety with the parts they do or don't put on their own car (and may ultimately be held accountable if something does go bad).

Actions speak louder than words. And louder than minimum requirements.

And this isn't just about the USCA. Go out to any open track day / HPDE deal and you will see all kinds of "under-safetied" cars and questionable setups... improperly installed cages, belts, etc etc etc. Why is why it is all up to the individuals. No one can force you to take care of yourself and be safe.



Seriously I have no clue how to embed the video.

So just click the link please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40YatgE_CE

Marty, even a caveman can do it. :D

Just click the green youtube video icon in the row above this box when you go to post, and then take the sequence of letters/numbers/symbos that are only AFTER the = sign in the URL of the youtube video (in your case, it's "g40YatgE_CE") and insert that in between the youtube brackets in the post. Like this below.

g40YatgE_CE

[syborg tt]

Thank you Thank you Thank you

Marty, even a caveman can do it. :D

g40YatgE_CE

[Flash68]

Thank you Thank you Thank you

:cheers:

and kudos for trying to promote safety around here.

[syborg tt]

Thank you & Seriously there needs to be a like button on this forum

:cheers:

and kudos for trying to promote safety around here.

[sanddan]

Interesting that this same discussion, or at least similar, is going on over at the camaro5 forum. Not racing so much as track days.

[intocarss]

Another thing people should seriously consider is a Hans Device.

Seriously I have no clue how to embed the video.

So just click the link please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40YatgE_CE

g40YatgE_CE I agree 110%..
You'd be amazed at the arguments i hear for not wearing a head and neck restraint :bang: I believe it should be mandatory just like helmets and seat belts/harneses

[glassman]

Not to go too far off topic here, but in the "dirt biking" relm, i've seen a ton of injuries (head and body) by guys "just tooling around the camp" or "just gonna go for a "test" run". Seems thats when things do go wrong.

I read an insurance stat one time that said 95% of all auto accident occur within a mile or so from the home, probably true since statistically thats where your at most the time....

Point being, theres a 1 in 1 chance/probability your gonna die. You just dont know when. Ya ain't immortal (even for those of us that do believe in an afterlife). AND yes, i'd like to WALK (not wheel) my daughter down the aisle some day, and even see grand kids....

I've always been a "safety first" guy, I built my car with this intent, Its my lack of experience in this genre that while my intentions where righteous, I'll fell short of a "proper cage", "no cell", minimal fire equipement. Thats called experience or maturity......

My two cents...

[Track Junky]

Didnt even open the link to see what happened. As a matter of fact I refuse to look at any sort of wreck anybody ever posts. This **** can happen to anybody and I refuse to give it any energy.

[Rod P]

well the last crash was on the track....and I put this one up because it was on the speed stop challenge ....just to show how fast it can go wrong, for no reason...Ken had just shifted to third and swung the car wide (left) to go into a right hander and dropped a tire off the track and it was done after that....the car picked up speed in the grass runoff..sailed across another (closed off) section of track hit a small rumble strip that popped the car about a foot in the air and into a barrier wall...that was at about 75-80 miles an hour ....just freeway speed......so next time someone says "I'm not going to track the car" I don't need all that safety stuff....remember thats why cars today have air bags, crumple zones, collapsible steering columns, impact absorbing crash bumpers, traction control and ABS, and WERE NOT TRACKING THOSE EITHER, thats just your daily driver

[SSLance]

The part about it being during the Speed Stop was the most eye opening...as the majority of us drivers there were wearing shorts and T-shirts, no fire suits or HANS devices required for that event.

Granted, that was a bit different Speed Stop course than the norm...while VERY fun...also had an element of danger to it as witnessed above.

Certainly something to think about at all future events.

[Ron in SoCal]

It happens while AutoX'ing too. Just this past year, I've seen it four times (once as a driver). End of the course, either a sweeper or a slalom toward the finish line. We all speed up to get the best time we can, tires cannot keep up with driver inputs and break loose. Fortunately, with one exception cones and egos were the only casualties.

Good lesson to for me to keep in mind when K-rails are present.

[Black93GT]

Not to go too far off topic here, but in the "dirt biking" relm, i've seen a ton of injuries (head and body) by guys "just tooling around the camp" or "just gonna go for a "test" run". Seems thats when things do go wrong.
I'm guilty of that. Toss on a helmet and taking a test ride through a couple dunes after just unloading the bike.

Along these lines, thats alwasy why nervous on the first session after the lunch break. People get a little too frisky after letting the bikes/tires cool for an extended period and drop like flies in front of you.

[CurtiSS 69]

On my commute Thursday -one of the worst ever- there were 5 separate wrecks. All worse than the original posted video. It can happen anywhere not just on the track. Am I going to stop driving to work? Of course not.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

[Vegas69]

This is one of the reasons I sold mine. I couldn't afford to burn it to the ground and walk away. I came to the realization that I was a flippin moron for running my 130,000 street car down a straightaway at 130 mph lap after lap. Safety, ha, the 4 point would have kept my body in one piece for the casket.

Do yourself a favor, build a safe race car or get a good life insurance policy. :lol: That way the old lady doesn't end up with a piece of charcoal and the kids.

[syborg tt]

This is one of the reasons I sold mine. I couldn't afford to burn it to the ground and walk away. I came to the realization that I was a flippin moron for running my 130,000 street car down a straightaway at 130 mph lap after lap. Safety, ha, the 4 point would have kept my body in one piece for the casket.



Do yourself a favor, build a safe race car or get a good life insurance policy. :lol: That way the old lady doesn't end up with a piece of charcoal and the kids.


Not to make light of your comment about the life insurance policy. But this is also very important. So far in my group of car guys friends 3 have died and they were the sole supporters of there family and because of carelessness and lack of planning there wife and kids not only have to suffer emotionally but now financially.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best and trust me this is coming from a guy that doesn't drink, smoke or do any drugs and yet had had cancer twice. You never know what life is going to throw your way and it's important to think about your family first so buy a 25 or 30 year life insurance policy when your young. If you have kids but it immediately because it's more important then any car part. It's your family's future.

Ps sorry for the little rant


Marty-mj
www.garagescene.net www.syborgtwinturbo.com www.2ndcamaro.com

[Vegas69]

Good catch, anybody with a wife or kids should have a healthy policy. Not negotiable. It should pay off all your liabilities so they can be debt free plus a healthy number of years to cover the income loss. Set them up...

I'll throw in a healthy disability policy as well. I've seen guys get hurt and crumble their families and lively hood. A disability policy lets you ease into a sustainable lifestyle or it gives you a chance to recover. A five year policy is a good start.

Next is a living trust. That way you avoid probate and the assets automatically go to your loved ones. Decisions have been made in advance. I can't believe how many people over 50 I meet without living trusts. They have kids and grand kids. I've had my trust since I was 32?

Would you want to leave your family without any income and all your debts? Oh ya, and they can't touch your assets unless they are awarded in probate? Don't leave them that mess on top of your death...

This is where a financial advisor really earns their money in my mind. Asset protection and putting an umbrella over your loved ones.

[syborg tt]

Great Post Todd I am meeting with my Lawyers to set up all of this stuff and your post will act as a cheat sheet for me.

[COYBILT]

thanks Marty,
you have me all freaked out now, i can say your right though.
There are a boat load of cars that don't have near enough saftey equipment,
I am glad this is being brought up, there is no reason at all you should be putting a six figure show car on a road course with out safety gear unless you like playing Russian roulette.

It is not a miracle in some cases that people walk away from these accidents its called planning for the worst possible scenario. I have noticed most people don't want to even really think of this. You need to think of every part of the car as a battering ram or some blunt object that wants to kill you.


I used to think I was immortal when I was younger, then I got bitch slapped by reality and I had my first big wake up. I was riding my motor cycle 10 years ago, I broke my leg, twisted my pelvis and cracked a vertebrae.

This is all from t boning a car that ran a stop sign at 30mph.

I will say that greg nailed it down though, think of every possible thing that can go wrong and multiply it. This is the risk of racing cars,bikes, etc.

[Ron in SoCal]

Great Post Todd I am meeting with my Lawyers to set up all of this stuff and your post will act as a cheat sheet for me.

Marty I'm sure your legal counsel will bring it up, but if not remind them of a durable power of attorney that carries out your medical directive in case you are unable to.

Hoping everyone reading this never needs to exercise this option.

[GregWeld]

Agree with this! So many think they have a "power of attorney" -- and don't have a DURABLE power of attorney.

The other thing to discuss is the typical household which might have a His and Hers checking accounts -- or credit cards etc. These should be JOINT accounts or at the very least - have signatory privileges. But like most things - these need to be discussed as there are plusses and minuses to almost everything. Just don't think that because you're married - that you have access to your spouses accounts. You don't!

Also --- Be careful what you read - say in this thread - about advice regarding legal "ideas". Laws vary by STATE. What might be a good idea in California doesn't work at all in Idaho...

Be very careful if you already have Trusts where you're the beneficiary.... ask about "co-mingling". I could write about this but it's better if you have a discussion with your personal attorney.








Marty I'm sure your legal counsel will bring it up, but if not remind them of a durable power of attorney that carries out your medical directive in case you are unable to.

Hoping everyone reading this never needs to exercise this option.