What am I doing wrong?

[DBasher]

I've installed the 3rd member and slid in the axles on the 9" but when I go to torque the retainer plates, the axles no longer spin freely. This is a Baer/PBR kit that Greg gave me, (thanks dude!) I've got no instructions but it's all pretty basic, or I thought it was. I'm only at 20ftlbs.....what am I missing?

:headscratch:

[Build-It-Break-it]

From the picture it looks like the bolts are being over tightened. It looks like they're not straight but pushed outward.

I believe there's shims you can put between the bearing retainer and axle flange to take up some of the slack without over tightening the bolts.

Try a couple of washers between the axle flange and retainer to get an idea of how thick of shims you'll need.

[68Cuda]

Are the axles bottoming out?

[DBasher]

Are the axles bottoming out?

That's what I was worried about. I did a bunch of reading and measuring and everything looks ok. I dug through the nuts and bolts that GW gave me, 2 paint mixing cups, and found some grade 8 washers. With one of these behind each bolt I'm able to torque to 55lbs and everything spins freely. Thanks Ahmad!

Now I guess my only other questions are, do I leave the washers or find shims? And do I need a gasket with tapered bearings and the seals?

Dan

[Build-It-Break-it]

I've used just washers before and have had no problems, others might say different.

I'm glad my fix worked for you:cheers:

[DBasher]

Me too! I had gotten so frustrated at the front of the car that I moved to the back thinking it would be easy cheesy. With this behind me, all I have to do is everything else!

:cheers:
Dan

[GregWeld]

Dan -- Wilwood brake kits are specific for the axle OFFSET on big Ford (Torino) ends...

There's either a 2.36" or a 2.50" axle offset... That is measured from the face flange on the axle housing to the outside axle flange.... You need to find out what that measurement is.


This is the assembly for a 2.50" offset kit....

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdRear.aspx?itemno=140-10329-DR


They don't offer a single piston rear kit for the 2.36" offset.... and if I remember right what I gave you is a single piston caliper setup (basically a C4 Corvette caliper AKA PBR).

[GregWeld]

Here's a picture of where to measure the offset I referred to.



http://www.wilwood.com/Images/BrakeKits/flange_diagram-med.jpg

[DBasher]

Thanks Greg. I went out and pulled the passenger side back apart and it is indeed 2.5....so I should be good. I also moved the caliper to the front of the axle instead of the rear position, not sure if it matters but it looks better to me.

I'm learning a bunch doing this and appreciate not only the parts but the help I get on the site.

:thumbsup: :cheers:
Dan

[SlowProgress]

I had to trim one of my axles a little bit. I just put some clay on the end and pushed them in to make sure I had clearance. It is super easy to shorten if one is bottomed out.

[GregWeld]

Assuming you're running a Ford 9"?

I've had to trim axles too... best done with a "chop saw" style saw and an abrasive disc.

Dan -- put some kind of witness mark (I use a magnetic dial indicator) on one side of the axle and housing - then tighten the opposite side - see if the axle on the witness side moves... if so they're touching in the center. They need about half an inch in clearance.

This binding issue is bothering me... and it isn't right, so something other than a bandaid needs to happen to figure it out.

[DBasher]

Assuming you're running a Ford 9"?


This binding issue is bothering me... and it isn't right, so something other than a bandaid needs to happen to figure it out.

Yes on the 9". I picked up new Torino ends from Art Morrison and am using your old axles, same style tapered bearings. I noticed the race sits flush with the housing end which doesn't seem right.

It's bothering me a bit as well, I'll pull it apart tonight after work and see what's what.

[DBasher]

The other thing I just realized....I measured the 2.5 offset with the washers still in place, DOH!

Sometimes I wonder if I should have just bought a finished car.....:bunny:

[MtotheIKEo]

Thanks Greg. I went out and pulled the passenger side back apart and it is indeed 2.5....so I should be good. I also moved the caliper to the front of the axle instead of the rear position, not sure if it matters but it looks better to me.

I'm learning a bunch doing this and appreciate not only the parts but the help I get on the site.

:thumbsup: :cheers:
Dan

Just make sure the bleeder is at the top of the caliper so you can get the air out of the system. May need to switch calipers side to side to do this.

[DBasher]

Bleeders are good to go, thanks for the reminder.

The races, are they pressed in or tapped with a soft mallet or? Driver side the race stays when the axle comes out and doesn't appear to be seated all the way. Passenger side the race comes out with the axle and is tight on the bearing.

My advisor has suggested taking it in which I'll do later in the week, until then I'm still looking for answers.

Thanks
Dan

[no go nova]

You put new ends on the axle? You sure the axles are now just to long? maybe when replacing the ends the rear was shorten a bit?

[Sieg]

Sometimes I wonder if I should have just bought a finished car.....:bunny:
If they can ever be considered finished..........they're not worth owning. :D

[GregWeld]

If they can ever be considered finished..........they're not worth owning. :D






Fixed it for ya...

[Sieg]

Fixed it for ya...

Thanks - Sleepy and suffering from heat stroke I guess........ :sieg:
*92 yesterday, 91* forecast for today.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Thanks - Sleepy and suffering from heat stroke I guess........ :sieg:
*92 yesterday, 91* forecast for today.

That's it! 92*!? Try 100* in California yesterday!

[DBasher]

So I'm still at it. I've trimmed the drivers side axle down and all is good with that problem, together and torqued it spins freely. I'm still having an issue with the races, maybe it's no big deal but I'm thinking it is.
With the axles out I set the races in and give them a lil tap tap, and they'll still come out. I'm pretty certain the race isn't supposed to spin. Do I need to press them in or drive them in further with something?

Refresher, 9" axle with new Art Morrison ends and A20 tapered bearings.

Thanks

[GregWeld]

There's probably a "spec" for that.... and a call to Morrison would answer what you need for clearance. Just to make sure your bearing and race is the right size for the tube.

Mic the housing - and mic the race.... do a little math and find the difference. There will be a + or - number which your number needs to be "within". But they're not "press in".... it should just fit in snuggly.


I'm ASSuming you have TAPERED BEARINGS.... not the sealed BALL bearings.... Ball bearings have a different assembly procedure. I say ASSuming because there's no picture but I can assume you know the difference and have stated "tapered".




The assembly process for a tapered-roller, bigbearing wheel end is similar to that of a ballbearing style, but there are a couple of differences. The tapered-roller, big-bearing style is not sealed but shares the oil with the axle. Do not install a seal in the axle housing or the bearing will be starved of oil. The bearing comes pre-assembled with a pre-lubed bearing and seal as one unit plus the axle-retaining ring. These take the place of a ball bearing. There is still a retention plate and in some cases, a brake specific spacer ring is required on the axle shaft. So when you install these on the axle shaft, they go in the following order: retaining plate, spacer ring, seal/bearing (with seal toward the spacer ring), and retaining ring. The seal outside diameter is a slip-fit in the axle housing end and when you tighten the T-bolts in place, it draws the whole assembly into a preloaded condition. This preload causes the outer diameter of the seal to expand and seal into the housing. This is a very robust wheel end bearing, but it’s tricky to disassemble. You can re-use the seal, but be very careful when getting the already expanded outside diameter in the housing.

[DBasher]

Thanks Greg, I'll call AM in the morning and see what they say. The race snugs in but spins and will snug right back out. Hopefully it's just another new set of bearings.

FYI, I did go see Jim and Rick yesterday.....didn't want you to think I'm not listening. :thumbsup:

[SSLance]

The races are not supposed to press into the housing end like a front wheel bearing, otherwise they would be a mo-fo to impossible to ever change out. I think they are supposed to come out with the axles.

I just recently upgraded to these A20 bearings on my car, then promptly had to remove the axles to swap out my diff. On the passenger side the inner race came out with the axle with just a couple tugs of the flange, kind of like my old ball bearing bearings used to come out.

The driver side, the inner race stayed in the axle end while the rest of the bearing came out. I tried to get the inner race out a few different ways but it was just sort of hung up at one point (probably the seal itself hanging up on the housing end) so I just seated the race back into the back of the housing end. When it came time to reinstall the axle, I greased the bearing up real well and just slid the bearing back into the race. I hope the seal seals itself to the housing end again...time will tell.

[DBasher]

Lance that's what has me concerned, if the race comes out or has some "play", what is stopping it from spinning in the housing?
I'll talk with Art Morrison and another place that's been recommended tomorrow and report back. I really hope it's the Chinese (National) bearings the machine shop pressed on, we'll see.

[SSLance]

It shouldn't spin in the housing unless something else is going horribly wrong.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

It shouldn't spin in the housing unless something else is going horribly wrong.

right once its torqued down the friction holds them down. Should not spin unless you have a seized bearing.


The first picture you posted. Does the brake mounting bracket act as a retainer or are you missing the axle retainer plate? Greg, do you remember?
The wider step of the seal should be flush to the housing end.

[GregWeld]

right once its torqued down the friction holds them down. Should not spin unless you have a seized bearing.


The first picture you posted. Does the brake mounting bracket act as a retainer or are you missing the axle retainer plate? Greg, do you remember?
The wider step of the seal should be flush to the housing end.


What were we talking about.....??? LOL


I don't remember what any of the parts he got look like -- they are off the Mustang we BMR / Ron Sutton replaced all my suspension. I just handed him a whole bunch of crap and said use what you can.

I've done a few of these brake swaps and I think that they're all basically the same with variations in the brackets etc.

What I don't want to mislead him on - or anyone else - is that we don't know the origins of the parts.... or their condition... etc. So I'm always cautious about just saying - "IT'S FINE". I'd rather have them check into the dimensions etc.... and make sure the tolerances are okay. What's loose to one guy is perfect for someone else that's done it a few times. But we're not there to feel or see.

Reminds my of Rudy's rear end that had Oldsmobile ends on a Ford 9".... Who does that!!??!! LOL

[DBasher]

right once its torqued down the friction holds them down. Should not spin unless you have a seized bearing.


The first picture you posted. Does the brake mounting bracket act as a retainer or are you missing the axle retainer plate? Greg, do you remember?
The wider step of the seal should be flush to the housing end.

The wider step of the seal is flush with the housing and the brackets do act as the retainer plate, good to go there.

I'd rather learn why/how something works then just have it done for me, as frustrating as it can be...now I know. Art Morrison Ent.(Kevin) said the race is not a clearance fit. Slide the races in and once the axles slide in everything is good to go.
I appreciate the feedback and education on what to look for and how it works. I also appreciate all the parts I was given Greg, the pile is getting smaller as they get installed.
:thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

What were we talking about.....??? LOL


I don't remember what any of the parts he got look like -- they are off the Mustang we BMR / Ron Sutton replaced all my suspension. I just handed him a whole bunch of crap and said use what you can.

I've done a few of these brake swaps and I think that they're all basically the same with variations in the brackets etc.

What I don't want to mislead him on - or anyone else - is that we don't know the origins of the parts.... or their condition... etc. So I'm always cautious about just saying - "IT'S FINE". I'd rather have them check into the dimensions etc.... and make sure the tolerances are okay. What's loose to one guy is perfect for someone else that's done it a few times. But we're not there to feel or see.

Reminds my of Rudy's rear end that had Oldsmobile ends on a Ford 9".... Who does that!!??!! LOL ok fine! Jeez :poke:

The wider step of the seal is flush with the housing and the brackets do act as the retainer plate, good to go there.

I'd rather learn why/how something works then just have it done for me, as frustrating as it can be...now I know. Art Morrison Ent.(Kevin) said the race is not a clearance fit. Slide the races in and once the axles slide in everything is good to go.
I appreciate the feedback and education on what to look for and how it works. I also appreciate all the parts I was given Greg, the pile is getting smaller as they get installed.
:thumbsup:

just curious, the first picture says the opposite but its hard to tell from the angle. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

The wider step of the seal is flush with the housing and the brackets do act as the retainer plate, good to go there.

I'd rather learn why/how something works then just have it done for me, as frustrating as it can be...now I know. Art Morrison Ent.(Kevin) said the race is not a clearance fit. Slide the races in and once the axles slide in everything is good to go.
I appreciate the feedback and education on what to look for and how it works. I also appreciate all the parts I was given Greg, the pile is getting smaller as they get installed.
:thumbsup:



I'm the same way... somehow you retain the details better if you did the job yourself...

Now, what were we talking about??? Oh yeah.... your rear end. :disgusted:

If I had more Mustang parts - they'd all be yours for the taking. The reason for that is because I know you'll use what you can and help someone else with what you can't. It's the way life should be.

Carry on.

[DBasher]

right once its torqued down the friction holds them down. Should not spin unless you have a seized bearing.


The first picture you posted. Does the brake mounting bracket act as a retainer or are you missing the axle retainer plate? Greg, do you remember?
The wider step of the seal should be flush to the housing end.

Hey Vince, just to clarify...the wider part of the seal is a bit proud of the flange. The brake bracket/retainer plate is machined on the back side, with the plate sitting flush on the housing the seal sticks out about 2/16" or 4/32".....

It's together other then the rotors and calipers and I'm pretty sure I'm done messing with it. Thanks to you all and AME I'm confident it's correct, if it's not...I may just take up archery.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Hey Vince, just to clarify...the wider part of the seal is a bit proud of the flange. The brake bracket/retainer plate is machined on the back side, with the plate sitting flush on the housing the seal sticks out about 2/16" or 4/32".....

It's together other then the rotors and calipers and I'm pretty sure I'm done messing with it. Thanks to you all and AME I'm confident it's correct, if it's not...I may just take up archery.

you effin with me? LOL
1/8" sounds about right. :tv_happy:

[bdiamond]

Did you get it fixed? Doesn't it need a spacer to fill the space that used to be taken up by the original brake backing plate/ bracket?

[DBasher]

I think I'm good to go. The new bracket holds everything in place and I've got no slop or binding....I'll have the wife "test" it out for me!