Need help with a judgement call

[SSLance]

I'm curious if any of you have ever run into this before or if you have an opinion on my options.

9" axle housing with big Torino axle ends with a Ford Explorer disc brake kit

I am switching from axles with a radial style axle bearing to axles with a tapered bearing. The new axles were ordered by the people that built my housing using my original specs and built by Moser, same as the original ones.

This is what I found when I compared the new and old driver side axles.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J7UGADzVKG4/VTg4csm3Z7I/AAAAAAAAT7I/AVuzfSxL4bg/w1218-h685-no/0422151910a.jpg

Basically the bearing is 20 thousands of an inch closer to the flange on the new one. That isn't that big of a deal in itself, it basically just moves the wheel in 20 thousands. The issue comes with reinstallation of the brake kit.

Here is a link showing the diagram of my brake kit.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/instruction_sheets/ExplorerRingDiagram.pdf

The Explorer Brake Spacer Ring is about 20 thousands thick and is used between the retainer plate and the bearing seal to take up the space of the caliper mounting bracket so the retainer plate gets good preload on the bearing. My spacer ring was one piece but I cut a notch out of it to let it slip over the axle, then slide inside the caliper bracket before putting the retainer plate on. This is all done around the axle flange and things get very tight getting everything in place.

With the new bearing setup, not only is the flange 20 thousands closer to the e-brake hardware, but the bearing itself is thicker as it appears that the outside seal is meant to be squeezed down when the retainer is clamped down to complete the seal. The outside of the seal is flush with the outside of the caliper plate when the axle bearing is fully seated, there isn't room for me to slip the spacer ring inside the caliper plate before the retainer ring goes on. Plus it is REALLY tight in there, the lug stud heads are very close to the E-brake hardware and there is no room in there for fingers to get everything in place before starting the nuts on the T bolts.

Here are my choices as I see them.

(1)Put the spacer ring behind the bearing in the axle end
(2)Get the 2 piece spacer ring in the Currie link above and hope it stays in place on the seal before the retainer ring is clamped down

Putting the spacer behind the bearing helps in a couple of ways, it makes installation a TON easier, it moves the axle flange back out to where my current one is which creates a bit more room between the log stud heads and brake hardware.

Does anyone see and issue with me putting that spacer ring in behind the bearing?

Only difference I see it making is the bearing is moved 20 thousands out of the axle housing end. The bearing race is still 100% inside the axle end, only the seal would be sticking partly out of the axle end. The way I see it, ID of the hole in the caliper bracket and dust shield is exactly the same as the axle end and basically just extends that hole out to the outside face of the dust shield that the retainer plate clamps to. Seems too easy though.

Then...if we decide that I can put the spacer ring behind the bearing...should I wait until I can get new spacer rings in one whole piece like these instead of using my current ones that have a notch cut in them that used to allow them to slide over the axles?

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/Product596.aspx?id=3044

This will likely make me miss our local SCCA Events 2 and 3 this coming weekend, which isn't a huge deal...but not exactly ideal either. I mean come on, who wants to miss a race day.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully all of my words above help those that have experience with theses ends and bearings before understand my dilemma and guide me down the best path here.

[SSLance]

Here is another diagram that shows the actual bearing itself and how it sits in the axle end. Imagine the spacer ring in the axle end before the bearing...and everything else the same.

http://static.speedwaymotors.com/images/pdf/910-31938.pdf

[dontlifttoshift]

To my fuzzy eyecrometer, that looks like more than .020"

Honestly that looks like the difference between 2.50" axle offset and 2.36" axle offset.

[SSLance]

I measured it a couple of different ways and it's pretty close to 20 thousands, maybe a few thousands either way but very close to the same thickness of the spacer ring.

I took a few more pics this morning to help illustrate.

This is the spacer ring inside the housing, notice it's notch to fit around the axle.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1ymugdlnk24/VTjupTZNBII/AAAAAAAAT9s/tIZfzBl7RS8/w1001-h563-no/0423150807b.jpg

Not in focus but this is the bearing\seal with the bearing fully seated in axle end with no spacer ring in place.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FoQLUIlGars/VTjt5MmOffI/AAAAAAAAT8Y/0qK1vYopom0/w1001-h563-no/0423150804.jpg

Same but with the spacer ring between back side of bearing and axle end.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-48pUO74aSyg/VTju20S6JhI/AAAAAAAAT-E/a_jE3h5b4JY/w1001-h563-no/0423150808a.jpg

I pulled the axle back out just a tad to show the race is full in the axle end but the edge of the seal is just at the edge of the axle end with the spacer ring behind the bearing. You can just see the edge of the race in this pic.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4ECC03ku2Oc/VTjuzzN-PII/AAAAAAAAT94/lKSuByPcWVU/w1001-h563-no/0423150808.jpg

This shows the thickness of the caliper bracket that butts directly against the axle end. ID is exactly the same as the axle end.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mjUlaQG3qL8/VTjuWdJLozI/AAAAAAAAT88/AbaI2oI4VK8/w1001-h563-no/0423150806b.jpg

I had one more idea this morning for a fix...tack welding one end of the spacer ring onto the retainer plate to hold it in place while I set the retaining ring in and get it started on the T bolts. Here is the spacer ring sitting on the retainer plate. The ring needs to be compressed just a tad to fit into the caliper bracket hole so I can't tack both sides...plus two completely different metal types and limited welding skills may make this a bit difficult as well.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w5asbhnAXb0/VTjuQtQ1fUI/AAAAAAAAT8w/1APP20KKMhI/w1001-h563-no/0423150806a.jpg

This would fully seat the bearing race into the axle end but would make things very tight between the lug stud heads and e-brake hardware while moving my axle flanges in 20 thousands (which might make me have to run a big bigger wheel spacer to keep tire off of frame).

I really want to put that spacer ring behind the bearing. I don't see a bearing race issue but there possibly might be a bearing seal issue.

Thoughts???

[SSLance]

Honestly that looks like the difference between 2.50" axle offset and 2.36" axle offset.

You may be on to something here though, place I bought it from is dissecting the pics now... He had an "OH?" response when I mentioned the different bearing placement...and asked for pics before going any further...

[SSLance]

Got the skinny, the difference is actually the axle flange thickness, the old one on the right is a 1/4" thick flange, new one on the left is a 3/8s" thick flange. Inside bearing race to outside axle flange measurement is the same on both axles. I'll verify this when I get home but it makes sense to me now that he mentioned it.

His suggestion was to take the e-brake hardware off of the caliper bracket to gain room to work to get the spacer ring and retainer plate in place and to squeeze the seal down properly. The seal will squeeze down approx 1/8" and that rubber part squeezes out to create the seal between the outer race and housing end. This would cause an issue and a potential leak if I put the ring inside the race. He also said early bearing failure is also a concern if that method is used and that is the reason we are making this swap, to prevent early bearing failure.

I told him my idea of tack welding the ring to the retainer and he liked that. He mentioned that the high end kits actually use a retainer with that spacer built into it all in one piece to avoid this issue.

I've never had the e-brake hardware off before, I'll look at it tonight to see if that method is possible, but I imagine I'll be trying out my welding skills to see if I can make two parts one for a fix.

[DavidBoren]

Lance,

I'm glad you got it figured out. Damn, these axle bearings have turned into quite the saga for you. I really hope this works.

I noticed the flange thickness in the photo in your first post, and was hoping you had a follow-up shot with the wheel mounting surfaces lined up to see if that put the bearing in the same spot. In the picture I'm talking about, you can see the one on the left is off the same amount both ways.

Anyways, let us know how it goes.

[SSLance]

That's just the way it is with this car (and many of our cars I believe). Things just need to be loved on every now and again to make thing splay nice together. I'm learning to not get as uptight about it as I used to get, just take it in stride and fix it.

Both axles have a 3/8s" flange,

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-r0SlfTnbqE4/VTl-pRGo3FI/AAAAAAAAT-w/WXzll-7nkwA/w1218-h685-no/0423151821.jpg

The difference in length is this spacer between the bearing and end of the axle.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1D288Y6bwps/VTl_ETAFHTI/AAAAAAAAT-8/C5ZVytsiYBI/w1218-h685-no/0423151824.jpg

I think I can make it work though, might have to love on some e-brake hardware a bit but shouldn't be a big deal. The big deal is holding the spacer ring in place while setting the retainer ring on the T bolts...

A little bit of this...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Hnqt9ne_7Fo/VTlTimulLtI/AAAAAAAAT-c/0q5o_wLLDF4/w1218-h685-no/0423151518.jpg

on here and a clamp...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ycyo9ecXVk4/VTmmZoKHKtI/AAAAAAAAT_Q/T5Hxv1WIqxE/w1218-h685-no/0423152110.jpg

and hopefully we are good to go. Glued it last night, will test it out before heading to work this morning. Wish me luck...

[SSLance]

Let it sit overnight clamped...at first it seemed to work very well...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4uipiHRCuHw/VTo_TpEYdFI/AAAAAAAAUAA/roFi1Cm6sE8/w1001-h563-no/0424150804.jpg

Until it didn't...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jCAaIk-S3iE/VTo_mS6PRBI/AAAAAAAAUAM/RD4uY0KlPig/w1001-h563-no/0424150805.jpg

When I test fit the retainer over the T bolts, the spacer ring popped loose when it snapped into the axle end.

:hairpullout:

I've got a couple of different options here now...I can glue it again and hope it stays in place until I get everything lined up and start tightening down the nuts on the T bolts, drawing the spacer ring inside the hole in the caliper bracket...

Or, I can glamp it back together again and put a couple of spot welds on the inside edge of the ring and retainer and hope that holds better...

My last option is to have my friend John build me a new set of retainer plates with the spacer ring built into them...but that ain't happening this weekend.

[dontlifttoshift]

Both axles have a 3/8s" flange,

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-r0SlfTnbqE4/VTl-pRGo3FI/AAAAAAAAT-w/WXzll-7nkwA/w1218-h685-no/0423151821.jpg



Lance, what is the distance between the straight edge and the inside of the bearing on the new axle in this picture? That is how much further inboard the axle face and consequently the rotor and wheel will be. I don't think you have the right axles.

[SSLance]

It's about 20 thousands...roughly a 1/8". The only issue might be a little bit of interference between the lug stud heads behind the axle flange and some of the e-brake hardware. I think it'll be alright though. The spacer on the old axles is the difference...I let QP know today, we'll see what they say.

[WSSix]

20 thousandth of an inch is 0.020 which is smaller than the standard overbore of 30 thousandths or 0.030. 1/8th inch is 0.125 which is over 6 times more than 20 thousandths. You're a long way off with the new axels. I'm going to agree with, Donny. I think your axels are wrong. I don't know the differences between what you started with and the tapered bearings as I have only dealt with the tapered bearings. To me, it make no sense that the distance from the outer edge of the flange to the inner edge of the bearing would be different between the two axels. The inner portion of the bearings set against the inside of the housing ends regardless of tapered or not. Clearly, I could be wrong since I'm not familiar with the regular housing ends and bearings.

[dontlifttoshift]

2.500" brake offset -
2.360" brake offset =
0.140" or just over an 1/8"

[SSLance]

I really need to get a set of digital calipers... :D

[SSLance]

Quick Performance is going to fix the axles for me...

I'm sending the axles back today, they'll press those bearings off, put the spacer on and new bearings to get the brake offset correct...but most importantly they'll also put a full circle spacer ring on the axles before pressing the new bearings on which will make installation a WHOLE lot easier for me.

Kills my weekend plans though...

[WSSix]

Glad it's being fixed though.

[SSLance]

Kills my weekend plans though...



If the axles don't get back here soon, next weekend's plans are in jeopardy as well...

Good news is QP is throwing in a free T-shirt since I've been so patient...

:thumbsup:

[lifespeed]

Just wanted to say I love those Monte Carlos, had one many years ago. I don't know the history of your axle bearing problems, but you are right that they are a problem in general for cheap American cars rolling the bearing directly on the axle.

It sounds painful, but fixing those bearings the right way with something durable is surely the right way to go. I am contemplating floating axles (see this post (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=50053)).

[SSLance]

Thanks...I kinda like them too. I hope this fix helps the bearings last a little longer myself...I know it's not the ultimate fix but it's an improvement over what I had for sure.

Now...if they've just show the hell up so I can see if they fit right this time...

[SSLance]

So they showed up yesterday... The new brake offset is just a tad the other way from my old setup.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9lRuy4TkrRQ/VUQQtNcAE4I/AAAAAAAAUUg/OZCjFgaxDGQ/w1218-h685-no/0501151848.jpg

This moves the axle flange less than a 1/8" out from where it was before.

Putting the spacer ring on the axle before pressing the bearing on was a GREAT idea...I should have been doing that long ago, it greatly helped during installation of the axle.

The axles\bearings slid right into place and the brake rotor ended up with plenty of room for the sliding caliper to still work right.

Here is the retainer holding the spacer ring and bearing in place...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vSy1906PvLE/VUQVMGTEgNI/AAAAAAAAUW0/RYdFpUNUA30/w385-h684-no/0501151906e.jpg

After I took the following picture I noticed the stainless cap was loose on the caliper bracket and I cured that issue...but this picture shows how the caliper fits on the bracket with the new brake offset.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zQwXND0hAGE/VUQV86WHvDI/AAAAAAAAUXY/Jhc_1oJQOXg/w385-h684-no/0501151910a.jpg

The test drive proved successful, no vibrations... Time will tell how well these bearings hold up but for now I'm calling the upgrade a success.

[Che70velle]

Good to hear lance!