filling weld pin holes

[WSSix]

Since my welding still sucks, do I have any options for filling the pin holes I'm finding on my headers? I only have a burner that can screw on top a small bottle at my disposal. I was hoping maybe I could solder the holes shut. I'm getting tired of trying to reweld areas. Suggestions?

Thanks

[Sieg]

Do you like playing Whack A Mole? :sieg:


How old are the headers?

What gauge metal?

Where are the pinholes?

What caused the pinholes?

Technically the metal on the backside of the hole needs to be clean just like the topside.

Using copper as a backing material makes life much easier.

[WSSix]

They're brand new freshly designed and welded headers. 16ga steel. Mainly caused by my slack welding skills I'd imagine. I do my best to get the metal clean before laying a bead down. I've done some reading and I know I can solder them. However, all the info I have found is in regards to body work. I'm a little worried about the heat and any pressure in the tubes through their life and how that would affect solder.

Thanks

[Che70velle]

Trey, what wire are you using in your welder? Post up a pic of said pinholes.

[WSSix]

0.030 solid wire using C25 gas. I've thought about going smaller because I'm creating bigger welds than I'd like. I've always had trouble laying down flatter beads or burning the welds in on thinner material. Best results have been from just stacking up spot welds. If that's what I have to do, fine. I just would like to develop other methods, too.

Here are some pictures.

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/079_zpspc9wnwqu.jpg

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/082_zpssl0itatc.jpg

I also found a hair line leak. I've been using brake cleaner to find any leaks. I just bought some denatured alcohol to fill each tube up with as a method to check for leaks. I wish I had compressed air but oh well. I figure if a thin liquid like denatured alcohol won't leak, neither will exhaust.

Thanks

[TheJDMan]

Normal lead solder will not work the melt point is too low. Do you have a torch like an Oxy-Acetylene maybe a Map torch? If so you could silver solder or braze the holes. But over all best fix would be to find someone who can Tig weld the holes for you.

[WSSix]

thanks Steve. My burner nozzle will fit on a small MAP gas bottle. At least I'm fairly certain it would anyway.

[dhutton]

I recall reading that it is bad to weld on parts that have been cleaned with brake cleaner. A poisonous gas is produced. Please check on this before you proceed.

Don

Edit: here it is. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=21877

[Ketzer]

Best results have been from just stacking up spot welds. If that's what I have to do, fine. I just would like to develop other methods, too.



I tack stack a lot on thinner stuff. Seems to keep my heat down but still gives a good solid weld. Is that bad?


Jeff-

[WSSix]

Thanks, Don. That's part of the reason I always use non-chlorinated brake cleaner regardless of what I'm doing. No sense in being exposed to chemicals if you don't need to be.

Jeff, I can't imagine it's "bad" as that's an acceptable way to weld. There's more than one way to weld in general, and I'd like to be able to utilize those techniques as well, if possible.

Alright, done with my Sunday morning ride on the scooter so I'm off to try some more welding.

Thanks

[MeanMike]

Looks like you are going to try to fix it by welding. That's the best route.

If you try anything else, you'll probably contaminate the material. And, if it doesn't work you won't have good luck welding it after it's been contaminated.

[WSSix]

I thought I would take a picture before I ground the welds down. These welds were laid in order to seal up some more pin holes. I have the temp set one setting higher than recommended. This worked well as the pipe has no leaks now. However, it blew through a little into the pipe so that won't work in the long run. Putting it on the recommended setting worked ok just had a few holes to seal up. I'm still thinking operator error more than anything else. Suggestions, comments, questions?

Thanks

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/003_zpsrissd9tk.jpg

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/001_zpss81f2ywy.jpg

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/002_zpsptpk8qqm.jpg

[Che70velle]

Trey, my miller welder doesn't like to weld 16 gauge with the recommended .030 wire. Wants to burn through, even on the lowest settings. So I tried .024, and it made my welds work and look MUCH better, on the thinner stuff. Figured this out years ago doing some exhaust work.

[WSSix]

Thanks, Scott. My biggest concern with the .030 wire is if it causes me to build up too much of a bead. I tried slowing the feed way down but the wire would burn off all the way up to the nozzle. This resulted in sputtering for lack of a better term. My thought is that the power setting is too high for such a slow speed and it's burning what's sticking out instantly. No idea if that's right though. Other than the bead build up, the .030 wire seems to be working just fine. Good heat without burning through. Just not sure what to do with those damn pin holes when they pop up.

I missed your reply earlier, Mike. That's a good thought with the contamination. I hadn't considered that possibility. Ideally, I'd like to get to the point where these pin holes aren't an issue. Any suggestions? Thanks

[MeanMike]

.... Any suggestions? Thanks

Tig. Any time you have to stop and start with a mig, there is a high posiblity of a void in the weld. Unless you can make a 360 degree weld in one pass with the mig, the pinholes are possible. Do you have an oxy acetylene torch? You could try gas welding with some coat hanger as filler. It would take some practice, but you won't have pinholes when done and very little filler to grind.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I agree on the TIG. T, are these new tubes? Did you wash them out good?

Mandrel lube imbedded in the metal will wreak havoc on welds. Dirt and rust will too.

[WSSix]

Thanks Mike. I wish I had a tig but I'm going to have to make due with the mig. No oxyacetylene either.

Brand new pieces from Cone Eng, Vince. I clean everything down as I go. I don't even use my flap disc unless the metal has been cleaned. Denatured alcohol does a great job at cleaning the metal.

Thanks

[Vince@Meanstreets]

You got something going on there. Is it aluminized?

[WSSix]

Nope, mild steel. I do try to dip my nozzle into anti-splatter gel occasionally. What in particular are you seeing that gives you pause, Vince?

Thanks

Oh, in those pictures, I have run my wire brush over the welds to clean them a little before taking a picture of them.

[GregWeld]

I recall reading that it is bad to weld on parts that have been cleaned with brake cleaner. A poisonous gas is produced. Please check on this before you proceed.

Don

Edit: here it is. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=21877



It's not the brake cleaner --- it's the CHLORINE used.... So you want NON CHLORINATED brake cleaner!!

[GregWeld]

Nope, mild steel. I do try to dip my nozzle into anti-splatter gel occasionally. What in particular are you seeing that gives you pause, Vince?

Thanks

Oh, in those pictures, I have run my wire brush over the welds to clean them a little before taking a picture of them.




Okay --- those are "dirty" MIG welds --- so something is going on. There's too much splatter and crap around the series of tack welds you've laid down and they don't look to be "wetted" out much either.

#1 - Are you sure your gas bottle is on and it's not down to the bottom in pressure??

#2 - Give us some data -- tube gauge - and your welder settings including GAS flow rate

#3 - Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the tubing?

#4 - what wire are you using - as in specs and supplier.

#5 - are you snipping the end of the wire at a 45* angle after or just prior to welding so you're not welding with a ball and smoke on the end of the wire.

[WSSix]

Okay --- those are "dirty" MIG welds --- so something is going on. There's too much splatter and crap around the series of tack welds you've laid down and they don't look to be "wetted" out much either.

#1 - Are you sure your gas bottle is on and it's not down to the bottom in pressure?? Brand new bottle.

#2 - Give us some data -- tube gauge - and your welder settings including GAS flow rate 16ga mild steel, setting 3 out of 5 on a 110v Hobart which is what the recommended setting is, wire speed only fast enough to have a continuous feed which is a little below what's recommended. Gas is at 25 for flow. I'm doing this in the garage so wind shouldn't be a factor.

#3 - Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the tubing? Yes, inside and outside wiped down with denatured alcohol.

#4 - what wire are you using - as in specs and supplier. 0.030 solid steel Lincoln wire. Going to pick up some 0.024 wire today just for the hell of it.
#5 - are you snipping the end of the wire at a 45* angle after or just prior to welding so you're not welding with a ball and smoke on the end of the wire.Nope. Didn't know this was necessary. I'll try it out this evening.


Answers are in blue. By wetted, do you mean the welds don't appear to be melted into the steel and are more on top of the metal?

Thanks Greg.

[Ketzer]

I also noticed you had a lot more of spatter around the weld than I usually get but didn't mention it because I didn't have a solution? (I barely qualify as novice, darn sure don't need to be critiquing).

What's causing all that excess spatter, experts?



Jeff-

[GregWeld]

Wire feed on a MIG machine is controlling AMPERAGE -- while your other control is VOLTAGE... turning down the feed speed is turning down AMPERAGE. Welding is the combo of voltage and amperage.... So, of course, without being there and seeing what's happening etc - I'd bump the feed up rather than turning it down. Increasing the amperage will help you wet out the weld --- which is something I noticed right away.

Also -- after NOT welding for awhile (like hours/days) - the shielding gas can/does escape your MIG gun.... so before welding after not having welded for awhile - run 10" or wire and this will purge the gas.

Snipping the wire at a 45* angle will have the machine using the voltage on a smaller contact point - thus increasing the heat momentarily - it's a good trick on thin materials. Think of this like the tip of a spark plug and the 'gap' and size and shape of the electrode strap.

If you're still having issues -- I'd turn the VOLTAGE down before I'd turn the WFS (wire feed speed) down. But try to learn to weld with the parameters they say first. The machine is dumb - and you're smart - and you can make adjustments to yourself that the machine can't. LOL

[dhutton]

I also noticed you had a lot more of spatter around the weld than I usually get but didn't mention it because I didn't have a solution? (I barely qualify as novice, darn sure don't need to be critiquing).

What's causing all that excess spatter, experts?



Jeff-

Far from an expert but here is a good reference. Page 15:

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/mig_handbook.pdf

Don

[Sieg]

Get a piece of same gauge material and test your settings and techniques until it's right. I'm a fan of .023 wire for this application.

[GregWeld]

Get a piece of same gauge material and test your settings and techniques until it's right. I'm a fan of .023 wire for this application.



The RECOMMENDED wire diameter for this gauge material begins at .030 and up to .045


.023 is for 18 gauge and thinner materials. This is the Welding companies chart not mine.


BTW -- a GOOD welder can weld most anything with anything - like a golf stroke - it's not the club...

[WSSix]

Thanks for the information everyone. I appreciate the feedback. I'm going to play some more with it this afternoon.

The pieces I've welded so far are test pieces. I have a lot of joints to weld on the headers. No sense in making it harder on myself by doing it wrong the first time.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Remember to back grind out the contaminated welds that were previously put down.

[WSSix]

Better?

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/002_zpscgsf4npj.jpg

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/001_zpsu3agpa4e.jpg

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Speed_Hound/005_zpsqutydmzm.jpg

Only changes I made from previous was to go down to setting number 2 and upped the wire speed a little. To me, it looks a lot better. I tried a couple different techniques including just moving in a straight line. Going around the tube is some what of a pain, but oh well, I'll practice. The last picture is after grinding. Initial tests show it doesn't leak through those welds. That was a pair of welds, too.

Thanks

[GregWeld]

Are you pushing? Or pulling?


Note the difference in the spatter with the lower amperage setting. Now I'd slow the WFS just a tiny bit. WFS is something that comes with practice and lots of time behind the wheel. Don't slow it very much -- so if you were looking at numbers and you were on 18 drop to 17 - give that a try.


Does your welding sound like it's SIZZLING? Smooth sizzle - steady.

The old rule of welding -- you drag for slag... meaning if you're using some fill that give you slag - then you drag.... Typical MIG is done with the push method -- but that changes depending on what you're welding and position etc. Sometimes you can't push and you have to drag.

Your torch angle should be dang near vertical (right over the joint) with it angled back 5 or 10* so you can see the fill and the puddle.

Those beads look better!

[WSSix]

Are you pushing? Or pulling? Pushing. I was having a little trouble with the curvature of the pipe as I went around. I should have stayed more on the top side of the pipe and made shorter runs before rotating the pipe


Note the difference in the spatter with the lower amperage setting. Now I'd slow the WFS just a tiny bit. WFS is something that comes with practice and lots of time behind the wheel. Don't slow it very much -- so if you were looking at numbers and you were on 18 drop to 17 - give that a try. Will do. I've noticed the WFS adjustment seems to be fairly sensitive. I was moving a lot faster than I prefer but that could be simply my inexperience with thinner material


Does your welding sound like it's SIZZLING? Smooth sizzle - steady.Yes

The old rule of welding -- you drag for slag... meaning if you're using some fill that give you slag - then you drag.... Typical MIG is done with the push method -- but that changes depending on what you're welding and position etc. Sometimes you can't push and you have to drag.

Your torch angle should be dang near vertical (right over the joint) with it angled back 5 or 10* so you can see the fill and the puddle.

Those beads look better!

Thanks Greg!