KLRBRD 1973 Trans Am Suspension Redo...4-link FAIL!

[chichirone]

We had a strange rattle over the last month and were chasing all kinds of remedies only to find the frame rail and 4-link on our 1973 Trans Am "KLRBRD" has failed us. The frame rail cracked and the Airbar separated from the UCA mount. We are going to rebuild the suspension and are looking for some opinions, suggestions or ideas since we are not necessarily starting over, just looking to capitalize on an opportunity to improve performance if we can.

We are working with to look at alternative designs and using some of the components from the 4-link. We are considering other options. We don't have an open checkbook on this one but would like to definitely do it right so let m know your thoughts.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

We had a strange rattle over the last month and were chasing all kinds of remedies only to find the frame rail and Ridetech 4-link on our 1973 Trans Am "KLRBRD" has failed us. The frame rail cracked and the Airbar separated from the UCA mount. We are going to rebuild the suspension and are looking for some opinions, suggestions or ideas since we are not necessarily staring over, just looking to capitalize on an opportunity to improve performance if we can.

The car is at Dusold Designs in Lewisville, TX and we are working with Mike to look at alternative designs and using some of the components from the 4-link. We are considering DSE quarter-link or a 3 link setup. We don't have an open checkbook on this one but would like to definitely do it right so let m know your thoughts.

Check with RideTech first before you make any decisions.

The DSE quad is a great set up.

[Rod P]

The frame rail cracked and the Airbar separated from the UCA mount.

sounds like the frame rail failed not the airbar... the air bar separated because it was trying to do the job of the frame rail...just put in new frame rails in and fix the air bar....what ever else you build will require new frame rails anyways.... second gens had VERY thin rails, from what I can tell...I know I have seen issues with 3 links and 4 links in the 2nd gens...

[Bad94]

Before you go bashing RideTechs name, Did you call them?

[chichirone]

Thanks for the response Rodney. Frame rails are being replaced. Still assessing what to do next with suspension. Vince, I'll be calling Ridetech. Appreciate your insight.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/0F552F69-9EF0-4EEF-B050-23B14DC517A0_zpsq5qtxx0i.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/0F552F69-9EF0-4EEF-B050-23B14DC517A0_zpsq5qtxx0i.jpg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/5E3346CE-82C5-4441-BBBF-6D1764D17CAD_zps664tdsnl.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/5E3346CE-82C5-4441-BBBF-6D1764D17CAD_zps664tdsnl.jpg.html)

[chichirone]

Before you go bashing RideTechs name, Did you call them?

First and foremost, I am not bashing. I stated exactly what occurred. The frame rail cracked and the 4-link bar separated. How is this bashing? I use my stuff and stuff breaks. Why not try to improve performance if the opportunity arises?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I didn't read it as bashing either. Something broke. I don't like saying it but I've seen it before.

That frame rail was looking ugly before the set up was installed. 2nd gens aren't good to start with. I have had a few where you start drilling spot welds and half way through the frame rail drops out. With 60% spot welds left, not drilled. Yes its that bad.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thanks for the response Rodney. Frame rails are being replaced. Still assessing what to do next with suspension. Vince, I'll be calling Ridetech. Appreciate your insight.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/0F552F69-9EF0-4EEF-B050-23B14DC517A0_zpsq5qtxx0i.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/0F552F69-9EF0-4EEF-B050-23B14DC517A0_zpsq5qtxx0i.jpg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/5E3346CE-82C5-4441-BBBF-6D1764D17CAD_zps664tdsnl.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/5E3346CE-82C5-4441-BBBF-6D1764D17CAD_zps664tdsnl.jpg.html)

upper eye too, that could have been very bad.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Hey Jay,

I can't say that I've seen a 2nd gen frame rail split like that before, but it does look very thin. With the Airbar holding the rails together, it looks like it pulled on it hard enough to break the mount off. Have you had the chance to call in yet? If not, I'll be happy to help out! We'll make sure you get straightened away.

[GregWeld]

Sorry to see this Jay -- but sadly -- it happens all the time. And it's not RideTech -- as it's happened with several folks around here with various suspensions. The rails in these cars were junk when they were new -- add 40 years of rotting... then put big sticky tires and track the crap out of em with half a zillion horse power... LOL


Somebody needs to make new frame rails that are .120 wall or better.... and you weld them in fully, instead of old weak single shear spot welds to sheet metal.

[Ron Sutton]

Sorry to see this Jay -- but sadly -- it happens all the time. And it's not RideTech -- as it's happened with several folks around here with various suspensions. The rails in these cars were junk when they were new -- add 40 years of rotting... then put big sticky tires and track the crap out of em with half a zillion horse power... LOL


Somebody needs to make new frame rails that are .120 wall or better.... and you weld them in fully, instead of old weak single shear spot welds to sheet metal.

^^^^ Yup, yup! Agreed ^^^

Most of these factory "frame rails" are just too thin for the forces we put through them. IHMO, these sheetmetal rails really need to be replaced with 2"x3" x.120" wall "real frame rails".

[Chassisworks]

Somebody needs to make new frame rails that are .120 wall or better.... and you weld them in fully, instead of old weak single shear spot welds to sheet metal.

^^^^ Yup, yup! Agreed ^^^

Most of these factory "frame rails" are just to thin for the forces we put through them. IHMO, these sheetmetal rails really need to be replaced with 2"x3" x.120" wall "real frame rails".


Gee, what a great idea, and the rail could be designed so that you could bolt a connector in the middle and have a modular three-section frame system.

Oh! Look What I Found! :D CLICK ME FOR TECH! (http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/DataSheets/7703_frame-system_DS_WEB.pdf)
Click Here For 70-73 Options. (http://www.cachassisworks.com/c-341-camaro-70-73-gm-f-body.aspx)
Click Here For 74-81 Options. (http://www.cachassisworks.com/c-342-camaro-74-81-gm-f-body.aspx)

http://www.cachassisworks.com/site_images/77XX/7703/7703_FrameSystem_AT.jpg

http://www.cachassisworks.com/images/product/large/5840-f20_2_.jpg

[chichirone]

Greg and Ron, thanks for the input on the frame rails. It is what it is so time to "capitalize" on the opportunity and make it better. We found some 2" x 3" x.120" rails from Competition Engineering. They are on their way to the shop.

The old ones are being cut out. The joke around the house is the firebird is now the Bird on fire. Going to be a mad rush to get it all done by GG's and USCA at TMS next month.

Hope to post some pics soon.

[chichirone]

Hey Jay,

I can't say that I've seen a 2nd gen frame rail split like that before, but it does look very thin. With the Airbar holding the rails together, it looks like it pulled on it hard enough to break the mount off. Have you had the chance to call in yet? If not, I'll be happy to help out! We'll make sure you get straightened away.

Josh, I wanted to thank you and Chase for your help and assistance. I'm confident we will get it all sorted and back on the road soon. :thankyou:

[JUSTANOVA]

autoweld chassis also has boxed rear frame rails listed in 11 guage. never used them so don't know what the quality is like, just throwing it out as an option

[chichirone]

Good lookin out man. Appreciate it. I'll look into them even though we got the CE rails. Never hurts to learn more.

By the way... I totally agree with your tag line. Stock does suck.

[Ron in SoCal]

Personally not happy with the fit on my Autoweld rails. I did not get the factory replacements though so your mileage may vary. When you call to order they really don't offer much guidance either.

OTOH, I've seen AME rails that come within 3/4" of fitting. Not bad from where I sit today...

[dhutton]

Personally not happy with the fit on my Autoweld rails. I did not get the factory replacements though so your mileage may vary. When you call to order they really don't offer much guidance either.

OTOH, I've seen AME rails that come within 3/4" of fitting. Not bad from where I sit today...

The AME rails that came with my IRS matched the floor within a hair along the entire length. Very impressive fit.

Mike's Custom Cars had some very nice frame rails at one point. They were designed for minitubs.

Don

[chichirone]

Frame rails replacement underway.

New ones arrived at Dusold Designs:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/83A4DA72-FDC3-4BCA-A049-EC0D7ED9BA1E_zpsykdkd53j.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/83A4DA72-FDC3-4BCA-A049-EC0D7ED9BA1E_zpsykdkd53j.jpg.html)

Suspension, rear end and interior have all been removed:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/D163A507-D1DC-4F6E-92E9-A607C89FA237_zps3uzypmxm.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/D163A507-D1DC-4F6E-92E9-A607C89FA237_zps3uzypmxm.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/24C96319-0CF8-4702-8CBF-4898434E1943_zpsbvxdmiam.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/24C96319-0CF8-4702-8CBF-4898434E1943_zpsbvxdmiam.jpg.html)

KLRBRD is now the Bird on fire... :welder: :super hack: :weld:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/IMG_0559JPG_zpsbb9cf08e.jpeg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/IMG_0559JPG_zpsbb9cf08e.jpeg.html)

[GregWeld]

And the fun begins!! Mike is one of the good guys! Everything is going to turn out great.

[chichirone]

Here are some progress pics.

Old rails are out and we cleaned up the underside of the car. 40 years of undercoating makes quite a mess but the floors look pretty good.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/6B3EF34E-BDC1-4117-827C-35DCFA64CFB6_zpsdcbmrsxn.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/6B3EF34E-BDC1-4117-827C-35DCFA64CFB6_zpsdcbmrsxn.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/9B885D95-0326-432B-92D9-BF3B8380B191_zpsclrlnzrp.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/9B885D95-0326-432B-92D9-BF3B8380B191_zpsclrlnzrp.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/8BBF442C-FB1B-411F-8020-D75FA81BBCE3_zpsp2xhjobk.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/8BBF442C-FB1B-411F-8020-D75FA81BBCE3_zpsp2xhjobk.jpg.html)

Channel has been cut in the floor for the new frame rail.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/EBFC1E47-A7F9-4B1D-A376-A84E6C1BADE6_zpsdzbvaep9.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/EBFC1E47-A7F9-4B1D-A376-A84E6C1BADE6_zpsdzbvaep9.jpg.html)

Mocking up the new rails.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/C9887525-7539-4369-A997-33D8C8A1D3D1_zps8hesepw4.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/C9887525-7539-4369-A997-33D8C8A1D3D1_zps8hesepw4.jpg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/03281F6C-2C2E-419D-B832-7C0CE6BA42B5_zpsm5s48dv4.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/03281F6C-2C2E-419D-B832-7C0CE6BA42B5_zpsm5s48dv4.jpg.html)

We should pick up close to 2" of ground clearance.

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/A4DBA95A-8C21-43D1-9B01-7CC3AA85C6DA_zpsvggzltc7.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/A4DBA95A-8C21-43D1-9B01-7CC3AA85C6DA_zpsvggzltc7.jpg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/7DA59E8E-4F8C-4F13-AC28-2E6706E4A081_zpslvictqad.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/7DA59E8E-4F8C-4F13-AC28-2E6706E4A081_zpslvictqad.jpg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/476CBF62-60C0-4F2E-9063-BC00FF4E3A38_zpst2r4xcnh.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/476CBF62-60C0-4F2E-9063-BC00FF4E3A38_zpst2r4xcnh.jpg.html)

Watts link mock up
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/2447FFCA-AD54-454B-89E6-D88CFB9481F7_zpsnsbr74tn.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/2447FFCA-AD54-454B-89E6-D88CFB9481F7_zpsnsbr74tn.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/D4ECC2F7-2C24-424A-9CE6-E97F1C824D0F_zpsmqj4kucp.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/D4ECC2F7-2C24-424A-9CE6-E97F1C824D0F_zpsmqj4kucp.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/A3A00E85-D863-4656-A693-7714FCF0A8F3_zpsdtxpyuu0.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/A3A00E85-D863-4656-A693-7714FCF0A8F3_zpsdtxpyuu0.jpg.html)
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/73E8144D-B56F-41BD-A7AD-43ACAA9909C9_zpsqi57neoh.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/73E8144D-B56F-41BD-A7AD-43ACAA9909C9_zpsqi57neoh.jpg.html)

The rear "subframe" disassembled and ready to be welded together for install.
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/1469CCFA-8A27-4836-98B0-91A101EEF8FE_zpsog82g8gj.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/1469CCFA-8A27-4836-98B0-91A101EEF8FE_zpsog82g8gj.jpg.html)

[GregWeld]

Looking good Jay!! Don't ya just love hot rodding?!?!?! LOL



It will be so much better with all the new stuff!

[chichirone]

Looking good Jay!! Don't ya just love hot rodding?!?!?! LOL



It will be so much better with all the new stuff!

Almost as much as Investing 102! :EmoteClueless:

You coming to Texas for the Optima event?

[GregWeld]

Almost as much as Investing 102! :EmoteClueless:

You coming to Texas for the Optima event?




Not this time around -- because I'm driving with 22 other hot rods (all Brizio built) to Austin for the Lonestar Roundup in April. Just couldn't make myself do west coast to Texas twice in a couple of months. Then I'm only home for about 5 days from that trip and I load up the rig and go back to California to run the cars at NorCal Shelby @ Thunderhill for the first weekend in May.

[chichirone]

We are getting really close to having the TA back on the ground. Mike and team are pushing hard for this weekend's GoodGuy's event at TMS. Hope the weather forecast improves. Rain, rain, GO AWAY!

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/IMG_0331_zpsobpzdy8d.jpeg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/IMG_0331_zpsobpzdy8d.jpeg.html)

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/IMG_8706_zpsd2ykjqey.jpeg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/IMG_8706_zpsd2ykjqey.jpeg.html)

[Jr]

Looks good.

Is the Fay's watts suspenion run inconguntion with leafs springs?

[chichirone]

The Watts is run with a custom 3 link set up. I'll post some other pics soon.

[GrabberGT]

The Watts is run with a custom 3 link set up. I'll post some other pics soon.

Looks like you may have kept the Ridetech lower links and replaced the uppers with an offset 3rd link. I've thought of doing the same.

[chichirone]

Looks like you may have kept the Ridetech lower links and replaced the uppers with an offset 3rd link. I've thought of doing the same.

Exactly Chris. We reused the Ridetech LCA's. Mike was able to design a set up with a 15.5" long offset 3rd link. We did not want to disrupt the interior. The back seat will be shimmed forward about 1-1.5" so we do not lose the back seat. I have some pics on my phone to upload to photo bucket so I can post.

The car is being painted today in the hopes to reassemble it tomorrow. I an really hoping the rain holds off this weekend to get some testing in at GG's before next week. If not, USCA may be used for testing...DOH! :confused18:

[glassman]

Exactly Chris. We reused the Ridetech LCA's. Mike was able to design a set up with a 15.5" long offset 3rd link. We did not want to disrupt the interior. The back seat will be shimmed forward about 1-1.5" so we do not lose the back seat. I have some pics on my phone to upload to photo bucket so I can post.

The car is being painted today in the hopes to reassemble it tomorrow. I an really hoping the rain holds off this weekend to get some testing in at GG's before next week. If not, USCA may be used for testing...DOH! :confused18:

You wouldn't be the first lol!!! I used the USCA t-hill event for testing on my new DSE set up, yeah, i have a way's to go....need more power:thumbsup:

[chichirone]

We are using USCA to dial in the TA. Camaro is sold. New owner arriving Thursday to take title so we are a single car family. Looking forward to hangin and running with you guys this weekend.

[fleetus macmullitz]

We are using USCA to dial in the TA. Camaro is sold. New owner arriving Thursday to take title so we are a single car family.

Good way to cut repair costs, uh, 'upgrade$' in half, huh Jay?


:G-Dub:

[GrabberGT]

We are using USCA to dial in the TA. Camaro is sold. New owner arriving Thursday to take title so we are a single car family. Looking forward to hangin and running with you guys this weekend.

Congrats on the sale. Too bad KLRBRD isnt ready to be flogged today. I was looking forward to a status update.

[DRJDVM's '69]

Is that the original Airbar version?... The piece that attaches to the frame rail looks like it has a pretty small "contact patch" to the rail... That's a lot of force on a small area... I think the newer version has a much bigger contact surface that spreads the load force out over a larger section of the rail

The Airbar in my Cuda has the UCA bar in the middle of the frame rail attachment section... Not at the edge like your picture...

[69x22]

Not this time around -- because I'm driving with 22 other hot rods (all Brizio built) to Austin for the Lonestar Roundup in April. Just couldn't make myself do west coast to Texas twice in a couple of months. Then I'm only home for about 5 days from that trip and I load up the rig and go back to California to run the cars at NorCal Shelby @ Thunderhill for the first weekend in May.

Not to highjack a thread but I've been to the Lonestar Roundup every year for the last 6 or 7 years. By far one of my favorites, don't forget to cruise Congress St. and tour the Austin Speed Shop.

[chichirone]

Is that the original Airbar version?... The piece that attaches to the frame rail looks like it has a pretty small "contact patch" to the rail... That's a lot of force on a small area... I think the newer version has a much bigger contact surface that spreads the load force out over a larger section of the rail

The Airbar in my Cuda has the UCA bar in the middle of the frame rail attachment section... Not at the edge like your picture...

It is the Airbar design for the 2nd gen f-body. The 1st gen f-body design connects across both frame rails. The frame rails were in really poor shape compounding the issues leading to the necessary repairs.

After plenty of effort the end result is awesome. The new frame rails, custom 3-link Watts link design with the Ridetech triples is awesome. Linear grip is fantastic. Lateral movement is greatly reduced. Our ground clearance has improved by another 1" to 1.5".

http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag340/Jdeluca/KLRBRD%20on%20the%20Autocross%20at%20TMS_zps7nfjwe s6.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/Jdeluca/media/KLRBRD%20on%20the%20Autocross%20at%20TMS_zps7nfjwe s6.jpg.html)

[WSSix]

Great action shot, Jay! Glad you guys were able to get the frame rail fixed up quickly.

[7firebird1]

Did you have to narrow the gas tank after installing the new rails?

[chichirone]

Did you have to narrow the gas tank after installing the new rails?

Sorry for the delayed reply. We have had a TON going on so been a while since I have posted on Lat-G. We did not narrow the tank. We cut the rails up and re-welded them to fit around the tank and tied in the front subframe to rear rails. The car basically has a complete frame under it now. Amazing how different it rides and no more squeaking sounds or rattles.

Btw, where are you in Ohio? We just moved to Columbus last week.

[carbuff]

Jay,

Did you get any pictures of the upper 3rd link? I couldn't really see it in the pictures above...

[chichirone]

Unfortunately not Bryan. I'll text Mike and see if he has any. The car is in storage so its not readily accessible for me to take some for you now. I'll try to get a few in a couple weeks.