$2500 budget for '68 Camaro suspension...could use some advice

[spctomlin]

I realize I'm hardly the first person to ask this sort of question and the search tool would eventually produce all my answers but I've spent the last three weeks wading through threads and manufacturer websites and still haven't been able to make a decision. Pozzi's website and threads from many of you here and on Pro-Touring have been very helpful but much of that info is now several years old or what works for one didn't work out so well for another and there just seems to be so many different ways to skin the cat. I'm always concerned I'm missing that one critical piece of information that'll come back to haunt me after I've made all my decisions. I know a good number of you have been paying close attention to and applying this stuff for years now so I felt it would be in my best interest to pick the brains of those who have had their finger on the pulse, so to speak. I'm running short on time and need to come up with something soon (my mechanic is fixing to have to move on to another commitment) so any help you guys could offer would be seriously appreciated.

I restored the car myself back in the late 90's and at that time installed a 450 HP small block and Tremec TKO 5-speed, PST front end rebuild kit, Eibach 1' drop springs (500lb), Vette Brakes 5-leaf mono-spring replacement springs (175lb), KYB Gas-a-just shocks, 1" lowering blocks, South Side Machine lift bars, four wheel disc brake conversion that uses factory front discs and calipers and 11" Lincoln rotors at the rear with 80's GM A-body calipers, a booster/master cylinder from a 2nd gen T/A and Wilwood proportioning valve, Chassis Engineering weld-in subframe connectors, poly bushings everywhere (including body mount) and the car already had a Saginaw quick ratio box and big solid front sway bar (1 1/8" I'm pretty sure) when I got it. It rides on 16" Amer. Racing Torque Thrust D's with 7" up front and 8.5" in the rear shod with Dunlop Z-rated 225/55 and 255/50, but I'll want to update those eventually, too. My suspension budget does not include tires.

I did some tracking with the car back in '05 (NASA HPDE 1-4) and then went through some life changes that caused me to have to mothball the car. I recently swapped out the motor to a 383 (around 550 HP/aluminum heads) and, because I no longer have time to work on it (small business owner, single dad of two) have hired someone to get it running again. While he has it I'd like to do something better with the suspension than what I threw together some ten years ago (don't really want traction devices...but don't want wheel hop issues, either). It will mostly see street duty with an occasional trip to the area race tracks for HPDE or DE events and I'm done with the drag racing thing, so getting a killer 60' time is not anywhere close to a priority. I don't need the ride of a CTS-V (it can only get better than what I had with the lift bars, I suspect), I don't care about gee-whiz looking parts and absolutely will never be showing this car. I simply want to extract the maximum amount of performance possible from it for my stated budget (which could be stretched a bit if it meant significant gains). I'm ok with having to cut on the car a little so something like the G-mod is perfectly alright...especially if it means more performance for less money. I'd rather spend money on better tires than tubular control arms if that means better performance at the end of the day and I'm fine with leaf springs in the back but am not averse to a bolt-in 4-link if I can pull that off with a good shock set up and still have money to address the front suspension. Brake upgrades will need to be considered and it appears the 3rd gen Camaro brake conversions are a popular budget friendly mod....but I won't consider that part of the suspension budget and will address it down the road (it brakes pretty good as is).

So consider this a chance to spend someone else's money the way you would if you could do it all over again. I mean, everyone loves doing that, right? :)

Thanks,
Michael

[Z06vette]

Is the $2500 for parts only or does that include labor? I would say for your goal of maximum performance it would seem like the rear 4 link & coil overs all the way around is where you will want to end up. It would be over budget to do front & rear. I have read in numerous suspension threads that the front is of more importance than the rear when it comes to the handling dept. So I guess you would want to concentrate your focus there. It would seem best to do this than try to do both with the given budget- Only later to end up removing parts that were a compromise to get where you ultimately want to be from a performance level. On the other hand, if you feel a leaf spring setup would satisfy your needs, this would allow front & rear to be taken care of. A quality set of front & rear springs (DSE, hotchkis/global west,etc) and a nice set of adjustable shocks would give you a very nice setup. It would be a step up from your current parts and you could keep the factory control arms and possibly do the G-mod. I am by no means a suspension guru, I just enjoy building/driving first gen f bodies. I'm sure others will add some very good advise. Glad you are getting the car back up & running.
Scott

[spctomlin]

Thanks for the reply, Scott.

Is the $2500 for parts only or does that include labor?

$2500 is for parts only.


I would say for your goal of maximum performance it would seem like the rear 4 link & coil overs all the way around is where you will want to end up. It would be over budget to do front & rear. I have read in numerous suspension threads that the front is of more importance than the rear when it comes to the handling dept. So I guess you would want to concentrate your focus there.

I too have been getting the impression that the unfavorable geometry of the factory front end is much more of a handicap to the handling performance of the first gen F-bodies than what's going on in the rear...so I want to make sure I'm not cutting any corners there and am addressing the proper issues rather than just bolting on the sexiest parts (i.e. tubular LCA). And as much as I'd like to put a four-link on the car I can't help but think it may be overkill for my needs. I mean, it's no secret a leaf spring car can be made to handle very well and I suspect can still be competitive in the right hands. But I don't even need to be competitive. I'd like to be fast, but I don't have to be the fastest guy out there. Since I'm just going to be open tracking the car I'd like to be able to push it and enjoy it more than is possible on the street and be safe doing it. I'm more interested in being under control and having a car that feels predictable than having something that just looks cool and has big money add-ons.


It would seem best to do this than try to do both with the given budget- Only later to end up removing parts that were a compromise to get where you ultimately want to be from a performance level. On the other hand, if you feel a leaf spring setup would satisfy your needs, this would allow front & rear to be taken care of. A quality set of front & rear springs (DSE, hotchkis/global west,etc) and a nice set of adjustable shocks would give you a very nice setup. It would be a step up from your current parts and you could keep the factory control arms and possibly do the G-mod. I am by no means a suspension guru, I just enjoy building/driving first gen f bodies. I'm sure others will add some very good advise. Glad you are getting the car back up & running.
Scott

For sure. I have to be realistic about what I want to do with the car in spite of how much I'd like to outfit it with the latest trick parts. Fact of the matter is I also have a '79 Mercury Capri that was at one time a SCCA A-Sedan car that I've rebuilt and almost completely converted over to an updated (well, updated by '05 standards) NASA CMC car. That will be a dedicated, purpose built for competition race car with a tunable suspension and all the proper race car goodies. So I don't need or want to go to extremes with the Camaro....just get the most bang for my buck from it.

And I feel like I've hit a brick wall with picking the parts. No particular brand seems to be the obvious best choice...all of them have good and bad said about them but I get the impression any of them would likely give me a car that can perform beyond my skill level as a driver. I'm not so sure I need some of the "kits" like the Hotchkis TVS since it includes a bunch of steering linkage parts I've recently replaced and also I find myself wondering "well, brand x kit has an attractive price but several are saying the shocks from brand y kit are better"...and even with that the discussion I'm getting that info from might be three or four years old which makes it kind of hard to feel confident I'm making the right decision.

[Track Junky]

If all you have is $2500 my advice is to not be in a hurry and wait for used parts to come up on this site. Stick to the bolt on stuff you can do yourself. You probably haven't seen my build thread but I have done nothing more than get a 1/2" taller upper ball joint with Global West control arms and a DSE sway bar up front. Still using stock subframe. I run NASA and NCRC Time Trials and do pretty decent. If you don't want to cut into your fender wells you can get a 255 up front on an 8" rim but I recommend a 275 with a 9.5" wheel with back space of 5.5". Same size wheel and back spacing for the rear. Get a Fays II watts link for the rear. This unit not only centers the differential but also allows you to adjust rear roll center. Then go to The Toyo RA-1 tires.
After that put in as much wheel time as you can. Buy a tire temp probe to dial in your alignment. Look into the Porterfield R4 brake pads before touching your brake system. You wont be disappointed.
Good luck moving forward :thumbsup:

[spctomlin]

^^^

Alright...three pages into your build thread and there is no doubt you qualify as hard core in my book. I'm not sure I want to take my car that far...but getting on track has a funny way of making you do things you said you wouldn't do beforehand, so who know where my comfort zone will be (how much budget will get stretched) once I hit the track.. Still, I see lots of good ideas I can work with so I'll keep looking over your thread. Which GW leafs did you go with...cat5?

[Sieg]

I'd consider DSE's bushings for the stock control arms, 1/2" tall ball joints and tie rod ends, Moog offset shafts, spherical bushings in the rear leafs if your spring rate/roll rate is acceptable, if not Global West drop springs, and the best RideTech shocks you can buy with the remainder. Nothing flashy or radical but noticeable improvements.

From a safety factor perspective you're way under braked up front considering the motor.............IMO. Not many things will hurt you quicker than inadequate grip and brakes.

[Track Junky]

Hold off on the rear leafs. Yours may work fine. And no, not using the cat 5 spherical bushings in my leafs. Just poly's. The Cat 5 spherical bushings are better for auto x applications allowing the rear to roll and rotate around slower speed tight turns. They also keep the leafs from binding but that's no big deal. Binding leafs will just act like a higher spring rate.
Try and take as much weight out of the car as possible. I would also go to the 1/2" drop solid body mount bushings.
I went to Hoosier slicks so if you do decide to go to the Toyo's I have two pairs of used ones and one pair of new ones in 275/40 17. Whats nice about the Toyos is when they have been warn down to slicks they are the fastest.

[spctomlin]

I'd consider DSE's bushings for the stock control arms, 1/2" tall ball joints and tie rod ends, Moog offset shafts, spherical bushings in the rear leafs if your spring rate/roll rate is acceptable, if not Global West drop springs, and the best RideTech shocks you can buy with the remainder. Nothing flashy or radical but noticeable improvements.

From a safety factor perspective you're way under braked up front considering the motor.............IMO. Not many things will hurt you quicker than inadequate grip and brakes.

Noted on the brakes....will be giving them the necessary attention in short order.

Alright, so these suggestions give me something to chew on but leave me with a few questions. I see no mention of the G-mod. Do the offset shafts and tall ball joints accomplish the same thing? And I kind of figured the rear leafs I have now would have to be replaced since I'm removing the lift/traction bars and these springs have no provision to control wheel hop....or is that not as big of a concern as I'm making it out to be?

[spctomlin]

Hold off on the rear leafs. Yours may work fine. And no, not using the cat 5 spherical bushings in my leafs. Just poly's. The Cat 5 spherical bushings are better for auto x applications allowing the rear to roll and rotate around slower speed tight turns. They also keep the leafs from binding but that's no big deal. Binding leafs will just act like a higher spring rate.
Try and take as much weight out of the car as possible. I would also go to the 1/2" drop solid body mount bushings.
I went to Hoosier slicks so if you do decide to go to the Toyo's I have two pairs of used ones and one pair of new ones in 275/40 17. Whats nice about the Toyos is when they have been warn down to slicks they are the fastest.

If I move up to 17" wheels any time soon I'll give them consideration. Might be something to think about for the Fox body if I decide to time trial it before I start wheel to wheel racing. Hell, the class might even allow 17" wheels now...been a while since I've looked at the rules.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The things that I can see is geometry improvents up front.
Your leafs are fine.

I'd be going after better shocks, fixing the bump steer issue and replace the graphite bushings up front. Tall ball joint or tall spindle will give you ther camber gain. I would look at a spindle cause it will fix two issues.

For your budget you can do a set of Koni reds, Ridetech Tru turn or ATS AFX spindle.

The only issues is you'll have to upgrade your front brakes with the ATS AFX or you may need new headers with the Ride tech Tru turn.

Everything else you listed can do for now.

[jeff71]

spctomlin are you in CA?

I have a buddy with a 69 Camaro who when I met him would do a handful of trackdays 4-8 a year I suppose & about the same for autocross.

I was really impressed how fast he is with such basic "budget" boltons. Going based off my 5 beers in memory....

Front:

*Stock control arms
*Global West Del-A-lum's
*800lb springs
*Koni adjustable shocks
*Iroc steering box
*Arning drop
*Spindle (dunno)
*C4 Brakes 12" rotor
*17x8 perviously, 17x9.5 currently
*BFG Rivals

Rear:

*10 Bolt 30 splines
*Globalwest leafs Del-A-Lum's
*Koni Adjustable's
*C4 Brakes 11" rotor
*17x9.5's
*Panhard bar (I think)


If I were in your shoes I'd probably do something similar to his. Vince's advice makes sense because the goal is to try and correct some of the original geometry.

Or If you want to move towards coilovers up front heres a budget option check out....

http://scandc.com/new/node/752


Jeff

[marolf101x]

Let's look at this from what I consider the most important to the least.
Remember the overall goal here: More tire contact patch on the ground equals higher speeds, means quicker lap times.

#1: TIRES. . .even if you could afford the most trick set up out there today you'd still get your butt handed to you if you are on 225 15" TigerPaws.
Get the widest you can fit.
Stock frame can fit a 275 up front (I would of course suggest our TruTurn, as it gives you a tall spindle for improved camber gain, almost zero bumpsteer, allows you to use any brake kit for a 1st Gen OE spindle, and allows up to a 10" wheel in the front.)
I would personally not go smaller than 17" on a street tire. And I personally like the Falken RT615K as they have great grip for a 200TW street tire (pretty good cold, so they work well for autocross) and they wear like iron. We used to eat tires every weekend, but that has stopped with the Falkens.

#2: SHOCKS/SPRINGS. . .some think shocks should be the last thing you touch. I, however, disagree. The shock is simply a timing device. It controls how quickly or slowly the vehicle transitions weight. Again, the goal is to keep tires on the ground. A good shock allows you to get and keep weight on the tires that need grip, then release that weight as the grip requirements move (going into and through a turn you need weight on the front tires as they are turning. As you reach apex the car should be neutral, as you begin to roll on the throttle. You then need weight to transfer to the rear so you have forward bite. Make sense?)
Springs hold the car up, shocks control timing.

#3: GEOMETRY. . .again the goal is to keep the tires on the ground. Geometry makes this happen for your set up. If you have a high roll set up you need camber gain that matches so you keep the tires flat. If you have a low roll set up you need camber gains that match that.
Typically you want as much caster as you can get, little to no bumpsteer, camber gain matching your set up (I'll leave the roll center migration and more sophisticated stuff for a later post, which Ron Sutton will likely school me on like always).

Notice I left brakes off this list. I consider brakes more of a safety device. You can only go as fast as you can stop. If you cannot get that thing slowed down going into a corner after a long straight, I bet you don't drive in so fast or far the next time. Brakes should be treated like a helmet or a driver suit. . . . get the best you can afford. If you have too much and don't use them, no problem. But if you don't have enough and need them, you are in deep trouble.

[spctomlin]

Jeff...I'm actually in the DFW area. No problem finding straight line experts in these parts. Not so easy to find guys who know how to turn left and right quickly.

So a few of you have suggested the factory type leaf springs should be sufficient. I just want to make sure I won't have to worry about wheel hop since the traction devices are comin off and these leafs of mine have no provision in their design that makes the front half stiffer. My mechanic is suggesting Cal-tracs, but I haven't seen a single car that's set up with handling performance as the goal that uses them, so I'm not keen on the idea.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The right spring can curb the wheel hop problems.

Check with Gerno and Carbuff. They should know someone around your area.

[Sieg]

I'm running Global West L2's and have experienced no wheel hop.

[spctomlin]

^^^
What's your front and rear bushing setup?

[CurtiSS 69]

I realize I'm hardly the first person to ask this sort of question and the search tool would eventually produce all my answers but I've spent the last three weeks wading through threads and manufacturer websites and still haven't been able to make a decision. Pozzi's website and threads from many of you here and on Pro-Touring have been very helpful but much of that info is now several years old or what works for one didn't work out so well for another and there just seems to be so many different ways to skin the cat. I'm always concerned I'm missing that one critical piece of information that'll come back to haunt me after I've made all my decisions. I know a good number of you have been paying close attention to and applying this stuff for years now so I felt it would be in my best interest to pick the brains of those who have had their finger on the pulse, so to speak. I'm running short on time and need to come up with something soon (my mechanic is fixing to have to move on to another commitment) so any help you guys could offer would be seriously appreciated.

I restored the car myself back in the late 90's and at that time installed a 450 HP small block and Tremec TKO 5-speed, PST front end rebuild kit, Eibach 1' drop springs (500lb), Vette Brakes 5-leaf mono-spring replacement springs (175lb), KYB Gas-a-just shocks, 1" lowering blocks, South Side Machine lift bars, four wheel disc brake conversion that uses factory front discs and calipers and 11" Lincoln rotors at the rear with 80's GM A-body calipers, a booster/master cylinder from a 2nd gen T/A and Wilwood proportioning valve, Chassis Engineering weld-in subframe connectors, poly bushings everywhere (including body mount) and the car already had a Saginaw quick ratio box and big solid front sway bar (1 1/8" I'm pretty sure) when I got it. It rides on 16" Amer. Racing Torque Thrust D's with 7" up front and 8.5" in the rear shod with Dunlop Z-rated 225/55 and 255/50, but I'll want to update those eventually, too. My suspension budget does not include tires.

I did some tracking with the car back in '05 (NASA HPDE 1-4) and then went through some life changes that caused me to have to mothball the car. I recently swapped out the motor to a 383 (around 550 HP/aluminum heads) and, because I no longer have time to work on it (small business owner, single dad of two) have hired someone to get it running again. While he has it I'd like to do something better with the suspension than what I threw together some ten years ago (don't really want traction devices...but don't want wheel hop issues, either). It will mostly see street duty with an occasional trip to the area race tracks for HPDE or DE events and I'm done with the drag racing thing, so getting a killer 60' time is not anywhere close to a priority. I don't need the ride of a CTS-V (it can only get better than what I had with the lift bars, I suspect), I don't care about gee-whiz looking parts and absolutely will never be showing this car. I simply want to extract the maximum amount of performance possible from it for my stated budget (which could be stretched a bit if it meant significant gains). I'm ok with having to cut on the car a little so something like the G-mod is perfectly alright...especially if it means more performance for less money. I'd rather spend money on better tires than tubular control arms if that means better performance at the end of the day and I'm fine with leaf springs in the back but am not averse to a bolt-in 4-link if I can pull that off with a good shock set up and still have money to address the front suspension. Brake upgrades will need to be considered and it appears the 3rd gen Camaro brake conversions are a popular budget friendly mod....but I won't consider that part of the suspension budget and will address it down the road (it brakes pretty good as is).

So consider this a chance to spend someone else's money the way you would if you could do it all over again. I mean, everyone loves doing that, right? :)

Thanks,
Michael

Hello Michael,

Since you are on a budget here are my recommendations.

First: Keep doing research before spending the money. Don't limit your research to Internet forums either. Read the "the unfair advantage" by Mark Donohue, Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams, Tune to Win by Carroll Smith. All these books have sections pertaining to our cars. The physics hasn't changed.

Second: My opinion is that your car isn't very far from the goal you described, and it will be able to go faster for less than your budget. BTW the car Jeff described in his post is mine. It is a budget build and it works well. With that out of the way. Just tune and optimize what you have, and only replace what doesn't work. This will allow you to meet your budget goal. Big changes have hidden costs!

Here goes:

Nothing is incredibly wrong with your current setup. The biggest thing holding you car back is tires. Why not tune it to work with better tires? Are you bored with it? I spent 3 years in NASA Time Trials winning a Championship & setting a track record in my class TTF. I figured out that spending your points on tires as it yields the biggest result. Suspension is is important too make the tires work, but nearly as critical. Getting the spring rates right for roll control & balance is the most critical thing. Wheels & tires will get you will get the best speed per dollar. They are your big limiting factor. A good combo would be 9.5 wide wheels with the best tires you can put on. You can be plenty fast with this on your current setup, and not break the budget. For a fast street tire on a budget build try Federal 595R tires. I like BFG Rivals for street/track use. Better yet keep your current wheels & tires for the street & get a dedicated set of track wheels and tires. NT-01's are my favors tires they take loads of abuse & grip to the cords unlike other R compound tires.

For the front of the car: Camber, adequate suspension travel, and no binding are the keys. Make sure the control arm bushings are well lubed with poly bushing grease, dial in 2.5 degrees of negative camber, make sure you have at least 1.5" (with current spring rate) between the frame & the bump stop. If the bushings aren't in good condition put on Global West Delrin bushings. The camber level is a good compromise for street & track. Before doing the Gulstrand Mod read the section on setting up the 1969 Camaro of the "unfair advantage" 10 times before cutting your frame. Solid subframe bushing are a good addition & cheap as well.

The rear: Do you have wheel hop issues on the road course with your current springs without additional traction devices? If you do try softening the rear shocks. Set the ride height in the rear to be 6mm/.25" higher than the front. Or if you feel the need to change Global West L2 work well for me & others. Run stiffer bushings -poly is okay if that is what you have- in the rear shackles as they cause big rear steering issues at high cornering forces. The L2's have a higher rate than your current springs so the cars understeer/oversteer balance will be affected, so expect a handling change towards more oversteer.

Brakes: Add ducting & race pads to make your current setup work. I like Raybestos ST-41's for track use. Our cars are horribly hard on the brakes , so no dual purpose pad works for the big track. You will need to swap pads even if you go with larger brakes. The benefit of your current setup is that the rotors are cheap to buy. Run the most ducting you can fit in to get cool air to those brakes. On a '68 this is easy for the front, as you have 2 huge openings below the grill. Run racing grease in the bearings, as they will see loads more heat. The bearings will fail very quickly if you don't.

Spend the rest of green on track days & having fun going faster with you car.

Regards

DEC

[DBasher]

This is exactly why I like this site, nice write up DEC!
:thumbsup:

[spctomlin]

Y'all are helping me tremendously here so much thanks, guys. Lots of questions are developing as I start to piece this information together but let's start with the tires as I clearly need more than I have. The car has about a 1" drop now. I plan to replace the poly subframe bushings with solid aluminum immediately. I guess I'll go with the units that are 1/2" shorter than stock. So at a 1 1/2" drop what is the max wheel/tire size I can fit front and rear and with what back spacing? Sounds like 275/40-17 on a 9 or 9.5 for rear but not clear on front...or I guess it depends on how the front is set up???

[Sieg]

Before doing the Gulstrand Mod read page 107 of the "unfair advantage" 10 times before cutting your frame.

I just purchased the book on Amazon for $28 it will be here Thursday.

I'd say in jest that you owe me $28........but then I'd feel obligated to share the savings. :thumbsup:

May I ask who's front spring you're running?

Thank you :cheers:

[spctomlin]

^^^

I read it back around '05. Bought my good friend a copy for Christmas this year but haven't given it to him yet (he travels a lot for work). Maybe I'll just have to hang on to it for a little bit longer.

[spctomlin]

So at a 1 1/2" drop what is the max wheel/tire size I can fit front and rear and with what back spacing? Sounds like 275/40-17 on a 9 or 9.5 for rear but not clear on front...or I guess it depends on how the front is set up???

Found it. Perfect and looks great.

You're holding out on me, Sieg. ;)

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=554160&postcount=20

So the only issue I'd have to contend with if running 4.75-5.5 and 245-275/40 is the inner fender well bolt heads? And that's with my stock front discs or, looking down the road a bit, an upgraded brake set up? And how does any mod I may perform to correct the camber issue going to play into this?

[Sieg]

Found it. Perfect and looks great.

You're holding out on me, Sieg. ;)

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=554160&postcount=20

Hey.........I'm not your mother. :twak:

I also used black oxide button head socket cap screws for the fender to inner fender attachment at the top of the wheel well as I was getting a little contact on driveway approaches. :thumbsup:

[spctomlin]

Here's a pic of the car so you can see what I'm workin' with...

[spctomlin]

Hey.........I'm not your mother. :twak:

I also used black oxide button head socket cap screws for the fender to inner fender attachment at the top of the wheel well as I was getting a little contact on driveway approaches. :thumbsup:

HA! I'm fiercely independent so trust me when I say it pains me to be in a position where I have to ask for so much help. Being severely deficient of free time makes me wonder if I should even be messing with this stuff. Hey, at forty-four I'm needing to stay a little irresponsible so I don't, you know, grow old.

Back to being responsible.

[Rod P]

HA! I'm fiercely independent so trust me when I say it pains me to be in a position where I have to ask for so much help. Being severely deficient of free time makes me wonder if I should even be messing with this stuff. Hey, at forty-four I'm needing to stay a little irresponsible so I don't, you know, grow old.

Back to being responsible.

don't grow up its a trap.....

[Sieg]

HA! I'm fiercely independent so trust me when I say it pains me to be in a position where I have to ask for so much help. Being severely deficient of free time makes me wonder if I should even be messing with this stuff. Hey, at forty-four I'm needing to stay a little irresponsible so I don't, you know, grow old.

Back to being responsible.

The car looks good! Little altitude challenged but good. :)

If you don't ask you don't learn. Asking focused questions around here get's you a free education and saves a lot of time and money. Learning the search feature can produce surprising results too! :thumbsup:

My car handles surprisingly well considering it has few aftermarket parts. I think it shouldn't handle as well as it does, though I've never had it on the track to push the setup past the limit, and I refuse to explore the limit on the street though I've flirted with it more than once but you don't know exactly until you've taken it beyond the limit. As is I believe it would do alright on the track.........it certainly wouldn't set lap records, but wouldn't be scary or embarrassing either.

I've had it 25 years and maintained a frugal budget. It has stock control arms and bushings with old HO Performance front coil springs with Koni's up front, stock 5/8" bar, Global West rear leafs -2" which were labeled "Special" when I bought them and are now referred to as L-2's. The front spring rate is pretty stiff as is the rear which keeps the roll rate down. The rear spring is the standard eye configuration with poly bushings.

As CurtiSS mentioned the stiffer rear spring made it loose in the rear especially with older smaller 245 tires. Going to 200TW 275's pretty much eliminated worrying out losing the rear unexpectedly on the street. Though I miss dirt tracking a few favorite freeway approaches. :)

Ideally what I'd like to improve without altering the current stance........add approximately 1" more travel front and rear while maintaining similar roll characteristics.

To do this up front I need to verify the front spring OAL and rate and probably change spindles. I have a Hotchkis tubular bar and springs sitting on the shelf that may find their way on the car after it's torn apart and measured. I'm also leaning towards GW's upper A-arms shafts and Del-A-Lum upper and lower bushings.

The rear springs have a spacer that's about 1", I'm considering the GW Cat-5 -2" w/ reverse eye spring kit may work well and minimize or eliminate the blocks. GW's spherical bearing should improve (smoothen) the feel as well as limit lateral movement during cornering.

The Koni shocks are good but I think a modern adjustable shock like RideTech's HQ may deliver a smoother ride with more range of adjustment.

That's the basic simple man's plan but it needs to be disassembled and thoroughly measured to know what will work.

Hope that gives you a little food for thought. :thumbsup:

[Rod P]

Eibach 1' drop springs (500lb), Vette Brakes 5-leaf mono-spring replacement springs (175lb), KYB Gas-a-just shocks, 1" lowering blocks, South Side Machine lift bars, four wheel disc brake conversion that uses factory front discs and calipers and 11" Lincoln rotors at the rear with 80's GM A-body calipers, a booster/master cylinder from a 2nd gen T/A and Wilwood proportioning valve, Chassis Engineering weld-in subframe connectors, poly bushings everywhere (including body mount) and the car already had a Saginaw quick ratio box and big solid front sway bar (1 1/8" I'm pretty sure) when I got it. It rides on 16" Amer. Racing Torque Thrust D's with 7" up front and 8.5" in the rear shod with Dunlop Z-rated 225/55 and 255/50, but I'll want to update those eventually, too. My suspension budget does not include tires.

great stuff you have to start......first I will augment the setup you have....
wth the spring and leaf combo you have you need an adjustable shock....QA1, ridetech, Hotchkis,....just someones, a shock is a timing device and in order to control the roll, pitch and yaw on the car you must be able to adjust the hold and release times of the vehicles movement
shocks about 500 bucks
and heres one everyone's going to argue with.. but trust me...do the guldstrand mod, just drill the 4 little holes...really and add a .500 tall upper ball joint to that stock arm
guldstrand mod free
Tall upperball joint 100 bucks
brakes are great you can live with them as long as you have the small rim(16")
steering box is good
sway bar is good

now you are in it for 600 bucks and some of your labor...


but.....if it was my car......

adjustable shocks $500 bucks
proforged tall ball joint 101-10016 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-101-10016/overview/year/1969/make/chevrolet/model/camaro) $100
guldstrand free
global west upper control arm 6 degree caster arm #CTA-79AP (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gls-cta-79ap/overview/year/1969/make/chevrolet/model/camaro)$475
DSE lower control arms (lower ball joint is relocated forward making more castor) #DSR-031201 (http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/detroit-speed-lower-control-arm-kits/year/1969/make/chevrolet/model/camaro?autoview=SKU&keyword=dsr%20control%20arms&sortby=BestKeywordMatch&sortorder=Ascending) $685
Helwig rear sway bar #55824 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hel-55824/overview/year/1969/make/chevrolet/model/camaro) $245
Falken Tires to fit the 16 inch rims Falken Azenis RT-615K (http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/tires/falken/product/submitProductSize.do?pc=18299&tmn=Azenis+RT-615K&typ=Passenger%2FPerformance) $640

total for mine comes to $2645....and then go race and save for bigger wheels, in the mean time you get seat and tuning time

I won a few Goodguys events with almost this exact setup :thumbsup:

[CurtiSS 69]

I just purchased the book on Amazon for $28 it will be here Thursday.

I'd say in jest that you owe me $28........but then I'd feel obligated to share the savings. :thumbsup:

May I ask who's front spring you're running?

Thank you :cheers:

Global West. They are 800lb/in units. I asked for 650's and they sent me 800's. I called them back, and they told me I have the right springs and hung up LOL! When I did get talk to them they had done extensive testing setting up a very similar car and found these to be the right springs. They have worked out well. The ride is about like a stock M3.

[CurtiSS 69]

Found it. Perfect and looks great.

You're holding out on me, Sieg. ;)

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=554160&postcount=20

So the only issue I'd have to contend with if running 4.75-5.5 and 245-275/40 is the inner fender well bolt heads? And that's with my stock front discs or, looking down the road a bit, an upgraded brake set up? And how does any mod I may perform to correct the camber issue going to play into this?

Carl Casanova has done the 9.5" wide wheel successfully on a 68. http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/50696-can-you-fit-275-tires-on-a-1st-gen-subframe
With Carl's lead I have as well. Check it out.

As far as wheels: get at least 18's, so you will find more tires at 275, and have room for larger brakes.


Regards

DEC

[Rod P]

Global West. They are 800lb/in units. I asked for 650's and they sent me 800's. I called them back, and they told me I have the right springs and hung up LOL! When I did get talk to them they had done extensive testing setting up a very similar car and found these to be the right springs. They have worked out well. The ride is about like a stock M3.

800 is a good spring



Carl Casanova has done the 9.5" wide wheel successfully on a 68. http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/50696-can-you-fit-275-tires-on-a-1st-gen-subframe
With Carl's lead I have as well. Check it out.

As car as wheels: get at least 18's, so you will find more tires at 275, and have room for larger brakes.


Regards

DEC

Carl had .....I believe the factory z28 steering arm....I used the same steering arm before I went to the tru-turn system and I also ran 9.5 inch wide rims with 275's on the front

the z28 steering arms is much shorter and turns in more for better ackerman...remember they were running FAT rims on the trams-am cars back in the 60's and 70's...I pointed that out years ago and had a bunch of folks telling me on some forums, it wasn't true.... I was lucky enough at a restoration company I was at for many years to have not one but TWO original vintage trans-am Camaros to study

[spctomlin]

You all are providing extremely helpful info and suggestions....thanks a million for taking the time to get me up to speed. I'll digest all of this, do some more research and start formulating a plan. It's tough to resist blowing the budget, but the sensible side of me is saying the conservative approach will almost certainly wind up costing me more money or leave me unsatisfied in the long run. What I should really do is try to locate some first gen Camaros in my area with a host of different suspension mods to see what does what. Fortunately my neighbor has three and they are all very nice builds. He's more straight line oriented and has a nearly unlimited budget (and his builds reflect that) with all his cars having four links...not sure what he's done to them up front....but at least it's something to work with rather than just reading about it. A customer of mine mentioned he just got a full Hotchkis TVS kit in to install on a customer's second gen Camaro, so maybe he'll have that wrapped up in the near future and I can get a ride in it, as well. With almost all of my customers being racers, rodders or shops that restore, build and fabricate I might just be able to locate a few capable first gen g-machines in spite of that not being a popular type of build around here.

[spctomlin]

Since tires have arguably the greatest effect on handling, wheels and tire selection has become a priority...thinking I should make a selection and build the suspension around them. I've been on the fence about the appearance of wheels larger than 17" on the first gen f-bodies with some 18's looking good, others not and anything over 18" just not looking properly proportioned to the car. I don't really want wheels tucked up in the wheel wells as I'd like to avoid clearance issues (since this car will mostly be street driven and the industrial park where my business is located has ridiculously tall speed bumps) so I'll likely go for a ride height that puts the fender lip just a touch higher than the height of the wheel/tire combo. I found this picture and am really, really liking this look...but just a touch higher with the ride height. I was pretty much set on five spokes like a VWW V-series but this looks excellent. Alas, Forgelines are absolutely not in the budget.

[Sieg]

I was on the fence for years, 22 years to be exact. 18's are proper and they fit proper brakes and provide a good selection of tires.

Next.

:)

[Track Junky]

Im a 17" fan but Sieg is right. For front suspension clearance at tie rod with deep back space plus tire size selections it appears 18" is the way to go.

BTW, also running the L2's