Bad day on the dyno... [Archive]

carbuff

01-15-2015, 06:49 PM

So this isn't the way I had hoped my first chassis dyno run would go in TOW.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150114_115709_zpseb0e21ee.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150114_115709_zpseb0e21ee.jpg.html)

During the first pull, after warming the car up and doing a little idle tuning, the operator starts the pull. There was a little hiccup around 3500, but she kept pulling until around 5500 or so. Then BAM! She just shut down. We tried to restart her, but she wouldn't start, and there were some bad sounds...

The shop owner pulled out tools and we started pulling plugs, then he pulled out a bore scope. Unfortunately we couldn't see much with that, so then he pulled out a compression tester. And guess what? On the LAST cylinder we checked (#5) due to the tri-y headers making that one a bitch, we had no compression.

Next step, we pulled the coil pack and valve cover, and voila: the picture above... Looks like the coil spring broke, dropping the valve which is now bent. That's about all we could do, so we bolted the cover back on and were done...

I have to given this shop their due: they really helped me out trying to find the problem instead of just kicking me out of his shop. Also thankfully, I didn't puke anything on the floor, so that probably helped. ;)

And I need to give some even BIGGER props to Steve (gernon) from here. I texted him about what happened, and he offered to load up his truck and trailer to come get me. Note, the weather yesterday sucked (grey and drizzly and cold), and he was at least 90m away from me. Unfortunately that 90m turned into almost 3 hours with traffic, then an hour to load her up, then 2 hours back. I think he had 7 hours into this pickup, then he met Eric and I today at Eric's shop to unload her. Steve, I still owe you big time!

Anyway, TOW is at Eric's now, and I pulled the head off today. The news is mixed... The valve certainly smacked the piston, which if that were all would be ok. But unfortunately I have 2 small nicks in the cylinder wall that you can almost see in the picture below. I cannot tell if they are deep enough to be fatal yet, but what this does mean is that the engine is coming out. :shakehead:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150115_151838_zps9a263ca9.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150115_151838_zps9a263ca9.jpg.html)

At the moment, I haven't fully decided what route I'm going to take. The head doesn't look like it took any real abuse, other than the guide since I'm sure it's dorked up with the bent valve. The valve seat looks ok. At a minimum, I'm going to need a bore / hone, a set of pistons, a set of sprints and retainers, and a set of valves. So a full rebuild is in store. Then it becomes a matter of what else I might do while it's all apart. I have a lot of ideas, but I'm not quite ready to turn TOW into a full blown beast. I like the mild-ish street manners yet good power on the track. But I think I can improve on the mid-range torque of my setup, Researching some of the LS sites, it seems that there is a lot of knowledge about designing cams for a single plane intake that didn't exist 5 years ago when I had this one speced. So I think a cam change is going to happen also while this is ongoing...

One other thing I learned. Something is wrong with my wideband sensor. TOW has always smelled as if she was running really rich, but I could tune her in the 13.5 to 14.0 AFR range just fine. Well, the dyno WB sensor was showing numbers in the 12.0 range at cruise speeds. That would explain a lot of my frustration with the gas smell at idle and cruise. I'll be digging into this while doing this project...

So tomorrow, back to Eric's. The engine is coming out, and I'll pull a plan together by early next week. This engine is SUPPOSED to have some nice pieces inside of it, so whatever I do, I will plan to reuse those (if they are actually there). If the block cannot be saved, then I may consider an LS3 block instead.

Weeeeeeee....... :G-Dub:

Ron in SoCal

01-15-2015, 06:57 PM

Sorry Bry. Dropping a valve never ends well. If I may throw out my .02, be very careful with salvage parts decisions.

I tried that once...

WSSix

01-15-2015, 07:22 PM

Sorry to hear this, Bryan. Keep the rebuild simple so you can get back to enjoying the car. Just be sure to go with good dual springs on the valves this next time.

NOPANTS68

01-15-2015, 07:26 PM

Man that's a tough day. Sorry to see the mess.

We're those Comp 918 beehive springs? They're known for issues.

glassman

01-15-2015, 07:52 PM

Sorry to hear this Bryan. You'll fix her and it'll be better than before. A month down and some coin.....I haven't drivin my beast since i saw you in Texas, shess hurt so after i get it back from CustomWorks next week, we dive into the harness and "hopefully" fix it (cause it may be an engine in my future as well)....

Did Steve get his fired yet?

carbuff

01-15-2015, 07:56 PM

We're those Comp 918 beehive springs? They're known for issues.

No, I was told they were Manley NexTek (?) beehives. I'm not as 'up' on LS technology, but this engine was built about 7 years ago I think.

Sorry to hear this Bryan. You'll fix her and it'll be better than before. A month down and some coin.....I haven't drivin my beast since i saw you in Texas, shess hurt so after i get it back from CustomWorks next week, we dive into the harness and "hopefully" fix it (cause it may be an engine in my future as well)....

Ouch, sorry to hear it! :( Hope your luck is better than mine!

Did Steve get his fired yet?

He has! He's been moving, so he's been really busy, but he got it on the road and is enjoying it, minus a few issues to resolve...

chichirone

01-15-2015, 08:05 PM

Bryan, sorry to see this about TOW's engine. Bummed for you but I have a feeling TOW will be coming back stronger than ever. Hope to see you get the engine repaired and TOW back on the road soon.

Flash68

01-15-2015, 11:40 PM

Sucks man.... well, while you're in there.. :)

At least you're right in the middle of LS country down there....

Oh and nice job Steve.

rickpaw

01-16-2015, 04:29 AM

Sucks to hear it Bryan. Hope you get it back together soon.

Gscherer78ta

01-16-2015, 05:58 AM

That sucks! I hated to see that picture and read the story. I can't wait to see TOW back running through the cones and tearizing tires!

Greg

ccracin

01-16-2015, 07:25 AM

That sucks Bryan, but better on the dyno than out in the middle of no where. Make some improvements so you'll feel better about having it out. But don't go so far that you can't drive it this summer!

Payton King

01-16-2015, 07:59 AM

Hate to hear what happened.

Not trying to spend all of your money but....

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48786

SSLance

01-16-2015, 08:26 AM

I had that same exact thought... :D

GregWeld

01-16-2015, 08:40 AM

SO the good news is Don Hardy race engines --- an LS specialist is right there near you. That's who built the motor in the '33 --- and where Brizio gets most of his motors.

My guess on the rich condition is a pin hole or leak in the exhaust UPSTREAM from the O2 sensor - causing it to add fuel to overcome what it sees as a lean condition. Or perhaps that valve never sealed well --- and unburnt fuel is oxygen rich again fooling the sensor.

Hey! You've only gone thru ONE motor --- the Mustang has eaten 4 since I've owned it.... LOL

Vince@Meanstreets

01-16-2015, 03:27 PM

you'll get it...good to have steve on your side.

It might be a good time to start discussing a different name for the car.
Just sayin

tones2SS

01-16-2015, 04:27 PM

Sucks to hear Bryan.
Hope you get her back to normal soon! Good luck!

Lenie

01-16-2015, 05:23 PM

Bryan, sorry to hear. It'd be nice if money grew on trees but for most of us that would be a huge set back. Feel for you, hope things work out smooth as possible. Best of luck to you.:bang: Could find the you've got to be sshiiiiitin' me smileee.

Panteracer

01-16-2015, 05:27 PM

Brian
Sorry to hear the LS let go
I have done the same in the past
along with many other engine failures

Most NorCal Shelby boys who track their
cars a lot tend to change their springs regularly
Depends on how high you rev it. 7000 plus
all the time does take its toll

You could always go out on the edge and
put a real Pontiac Motor in her:)

I hope you get it running soon

Bob

waynieZ

01-16-2015, 05:53 PM

That sucks, I hope you can save the block and you get it back in soon. Good Luck.

GregWeld

01-16-2015, 06:03 PM

Bryan - I went back and took a look at the top of your pistons and yeah ... that looks to have been running very rich.

The whole thing is really upsetting. And I'm sorry you're having these on going issues.

Solid LT1

01-17-2015, 12:40 AM

Looks like your rocker bolt pulled or loosened up. I notice you didn't do a trunion upgrade on the rocker arms. I would definitely look into doing some upgrades, the trunion kits are around $140 and include longer Allen bolts to give better reliability. Doing some research after I bought my L92 Super Victor.....it seems the single plane intakes give up some torque and HP on a normally aspirated LS motor over the factory plastic intake.....around 30-40 ft/lbs in the lower RPM ranges....the Victor only seems advantageous in high RPM operation ( over 7K RPM ) I hope your also running LS3 intake valves, they are 90 grams, the L92 valves are heavy around 116grams, if you don't have LS3 hardware the hollow stem Ferrera stuf is 106 grams. The factory LS3 valves are pretty good stuff and really lightweight but, don't put a lot of spring pressure on them! If your going to rebuild the LS do yourself a big favor.....pitch the stock connecting rods for some Manley rods or Callies forged rods cheap insurance. Brian Tooley racing has some great hardware for LS valve springs.....stay away from the titanium retainers....stick with tool steel retainers....almost as light as Ti and won't flake away in operation like Ti will. If your motor builder know his stuff on LS motors he will know he needs to port the oil galleys and drill the lifter retainers for high RPM oil drain back. Hope all goes well in the refresh

71RS/SS396

01-17-2015, 05:26 AM

We make a stud girdle for the stock rockers.

Jay Hilliard

01-17-2015, 05:39 AM

Che70velle

01-17-2015, 06:39 AM

GregWeld

01-17-2015, 06:44 AM

Greg, did you happen to notice if the notches in the sleeve looked, or felt deep?

Scott --- I can only see the same photos that you can i.e., the ones Bryan posted up. I can see the "dings" that Bryan mentioned but not well enough to know whether or not that is going to be able to be machined out.

I think a good meal at The Salt Lick will have Bryan up and running in no time at all.

Che70velle

01-17-2015, 06:56 AM

Scott --- I can only see the same photos that you can i.e., the ones Bryan posted up. I can see the "dings" that Bryan mentioned but not well enough to know whether or not that is going to be able to be machined out.

I think a good meal at The Salt Lick will have Bryan up and running in no time at all.

I read your post wrong Greg. I thought you said you went "by" lol.
Those pics of the food you guys enjoyed at The Salt Lick make me hungry, every time I scan through his build thread.

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:12 PM

Bryan, sorry to see this about TOW's engine. Bummed for you but I have a feeling TOW will be coming back stronger than ever. Hope to see you get the engine repaired and TOW back on the road soon.

Sucks man.... well, while you're in there.. :)

At least you're right in the middle of LS country down there....

Oh and nice job Steve.

Sucks to hear it Bryan. Hope you get it back together soon.

That sucks! I hated to see that picture and read the story. I can't wait to see TOW back running through the cones and tearizing tires!

Greg

That sucks Bryan, but better on the dyno than out in the middle of no where. Make some improvements so you'll feel better about having it out. But don't go so far that you can't drive it this summer!

you'll get it...good to have steve on your side.

It might be a good time to start discussing a different name for the car.
Just sayin

Sucks to hear Bryan.
Hope you get her back to normal soon! Good luck!

Bryan, sorry to hear. It'd be nice if money grew on trees but for most of us that would be a huge set back. Feel for you, hope things work out smooth as possible. Best of luck to you.:bang: Could find the you've got to be sshiiiiitin' me smileee.

Brian
Sorry to hear the LS let go
I have done the same in the past
along with many other engine failures

Most NorCal Shelby boys who track their
cars a lot tend to change their springs regularly
Depends on how high you rev it. 7000 plus
all the time does take its toll

You could always go out on the edge and
put a real Pontiac Motor in her:)

I hope you get it running soon

Bob

That sucks, I hope you can save the block and you get it back in soon. Good Luck.

Thanx guys... It definitely was a 'heart in my throat' moment, but once it happens, there isnt' anything else to do but dive in and start the repairs. Oh, and pull out the wallet...

Here she is on the floor at Eric's shop:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150116_182338_zpskqnnjmpe.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150116_182338_zpskqnnjmpe.jpg.html)

And a shot of the bent valve. The seat and chamber look fine, just the valve and guide of course.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150116_174021_zpsbf0xmjgx.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150116_174021_zpsbf0xmjgx.jpg.html)

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:13 PM

Hate to hear what happened.

Not trying to spend all of your money but....

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48786

I had that same exact thought... :D

Yikes! That's a bit more 'engineering' than I want to take on with TOW right now, but it should would be an upgrade! :)

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:16 PM

SO the good news is Don Hardy race engines --- an LS specialist is right there near you. That's who built the motor in the '33 --- and where Brizio gets most of his motors.

I just checked, he is in Lubbock, about 6 hours away. I haven't heard of him before... Fortunately, I have one of the larger suppliers of LS engines who just moved from Lubbock to Georgetown, just north of Austin, in Texas Speed. I went to visit them on Friday and am discussing plans for my repair or replacement with them. Nice to have a local shop to work with!

My guess on the rich condition is a pin hole or leak in the exhaust UPSTREAM from the O2 sensor - causing it to add fuel to overcome what it sees as a lean condition. Or perhaps that valve never sealed well --- and unburnt fuel is oxygen rich again fooling the sensor.

We checked the exhaust as we removed it, and there are no leaks. I think I have another failing O2 sensor for some reason. More on this in another post in a minute...

Hey! You've only gone thru ONE motor --- the Mustang has eaten 4 since I've owned it.... LOL

I do NOT want to catch up to you!!!

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:29 PM

Looks like your rocker bolt pulled or loosened up. I notice you didn't do a trunion upgrade on the rocker arms. I would definitely look into doing some upgrades, the trunion kits are around $140 and include longer Allen bolts to give better reliability.

I have read mixed information on the trunion 'upgrade'. In speaking with Corey at Henderson Performance (where I was dynoing), we had a long conversation about this. He recommended not to do this, as he has never seen a failure from a stock rocker in their applications, and it's apparently risky to loose a needle if one of these gives out.

See more in a post below about where I think the problem was...

Doing some research after I bought my L92 Super Victor.....it seems the single plane intakes give up some torque and HP on a normally aspirated LS motor over the factory plastic intake.....around 30-40 ft/lbs in the lower RPM ranges....the Victor only seems advantageous in high RPM operation ( over 7K RPM )

I am painfully aware of the sacrifice I made in low end torque to use the Victor Jr. I would much prefer to move up to the new L92 version of a Super Victor, but I've already had to compromise and do a lot of work just to make the Vic Jr. work with my shaker and hood. This was a case of form over function in my application... When I had this engine switched over from the L76 intake to the Vic. Jr. with my cam, I had it dynoed. Below is the overlay of the original setup, the L76 intake with my cam, and the Vic. Jr with my cam. About 40-50 ft-lb of torque lost until over 5k rpm. :\ I have some thoughts of improving that loss with this upgrade though!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/71%20Firebird/dyno.gif (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/71%20Firebird/dyno.gif.html)

I hope your also running LS3 intake valves, they are 90 grams, the L92 valves are heavy around 116grams, if you don't have LS3 hardware the hollow stem Ferrera stuf is 106 grams. The factory LS3 valves are pretty good stuff and really lightweight but, don't put a lot of spring pressure on them!

This engine was running a set of Manley SS valves with Manley beehive springs. Nothing hollow or lightweight, but I also wasn't spinning past 6800 (redline), I was shifting around 6500-6600.

If your going to rebuild the LS do yourself a big favor.....pitch the stock connecting rods for some Manley rods or Callies forged rods cheap insurance.

I have a Callies DragonSlayer crank and Compstar rods in this setup that I hope/plan to reuse.

Brian Tooley racing has some great hardware for LS valve springs.....stay away from the titanium retainers....stick with tool steel retainers....almost as light as Ti and won't flake away in operation like Ti will. If your motor builder know his stuff on LS motors he will know he needs to port the oil galleys and drill the lifter retainers for high RPM oil drain back. Hope all goes well in the refresh

The lifter retainers were drilled, but not sure about any oil galley porting...

We make a stud girdle for the stock rockers.

I'd be interested in a link to that!

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:30 PM

Sorry to hear this Brian. I have snapped the end of the crank off at 6500 and it sounded like a pencil snapping for that brief moment until bits of block and pistons came out of the oil pan.

We have all had these issues and definitely feel your pain.
Its an opportunity to make TOW better.

Wow, that must have been a bad sound to hear! TOW was making some pretty ugly sounds too. Sadly, we may have hurt the cylinder wall when trying to determine where the noise was by continuing to crank her. :(

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:31 PM

Greg, did you happen to notice if the notches in the sleeve looked, or felt deep?

I can catch them with my finger nail. I don't know that a light bore is going to clean them up, and it seems that many builders shy away from more than about 0.010" bore on these blocks. I'm already at .005", so that doesn't leave much.

carbuff

01-18-2015, 12:32 PM

I think a good meal at The Salt Lick will have Bryan up and running in no time at all.

That's it, I'm having BBQ tonight! Although I'll go somewhere better and a little closer to home. Maybe I'll even send you a picture! ;)

carbuff

01-18-2015, 01:02 PM

OK, after catching up on the condolences and questions, I'll give a bit more of an update... Eric and I pulled the head Thursday and found the cylinder wall nicks. So on Friday we decided to pull the whole engine. Unfortunately that means dropping the transmission, which means releasing the torque arm mount (that doubles as my trans crossmember).

With Eric's lift and the appropriate tools, we had it all apart in about 3 hours as you can see above. We've stripped it down to basically a long block now as I work out my plans for the repair or replacement.

We discovered a couple of things while taking it apart. First, it seems we had the lines to my PCV catch can routed backwards. When I pulled the intake manifold, it and the intake ports had oil all over them. That explains the oil consumption problem that I've had with this engine, and perhaps also explains why my O2 sensor died back in March (and I appear to be losing the replacement now). It would also explain how dirty the chambers and pistons are when we removed the head.

We also found a few leaks along the oil pan and PS pump that explain the dirty bottom of the car that I was fighting. I'm going to replace the PS pump. Even though it was new, it's been making some nasty sounds once in a while. I ran it almost dry when the PS rack went out, so it's likely got some internal wear, so now is the time to fix it.

Back to the engine itself... I bought this engine about 5 years ago. It had been sitting for a long time, as it was apparently the engine used when this magazine article was written:

GMHTP Engine Write on LS2 with L92 heads (http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/0707gm-blue-collar-workhorse/)

The guy that Golen built that engine for never finished his project, so he listed it on eBay. It was still sitting at Golen's shop, so I spoke with him about some changes before shipping it to me. After I completed the purchase, I ordered a cam and the Vic. Jr. intake and had Golen install them. Then he dynoed it and you see the plot above.

There are a lot of details I never got, so I relied on the article to fill in the blanks. Last night while reading the article, I ran across something that puzzles me. The springs used on those heads were listed as Manley Nextek beehives. I googled them and came up with this page:

http://www.manleyperformance.com/niche/chevy_ls_valvetrain.shtml

If I can trust the information in the article (questionable, I know, but it's all I have), those springs were installed at 1.8" height and had 158# of seat pressure. They also list 345# of open pressure at 0.6" lift. The closest spring I could find from the above table is the first one, and it lists a max of 0.6" lift. I know Golen was running a cam that was slightly bigger than the cam in the article (a 242/248), so I would have expected them to have adequate clearance on the springs, but perhaps they didn't. That's my best hypothesis for what went wrong: over-lifted the spring, I'm not running aggressive lobes on this cam, so that shouldn't have been the problem...

Anyway, if you go through the rest of the parts list, the engine should have some nice pieces in it. The Callies DragSlayer crank, Compstar rods with smaller rod journals, the Mahle pistons, and some bowl work on the heads. I'll find out for sure soon when it is all torn down.

I've gone through a lot of scenarios of what I would like to do... Given more time and budget, I think I would send this block off to ERL and have them sleeve it. Then I could punch it out to a 427 or 441. I would then perhaps go with a set of LS7 heads and the single plane intake. That should net a nice bump in performance.

However, I have 2 events in March that I do not want to miss! GG is coming to Fort Worth, and USCA is coming the weekend after... I just don't see how I can pull this all together in that timeline and have time to tune it and break it in. So instead, I'm leading towards the following plan...

I drove over to Texas Speed's new facility on Friday and spent about an hour talking to them about my situation. Then can do pretty much anything I want to do in-house, except the sleeving which they don't do or sell yet. I'm planning to take the long block to them tomorrow and do the following:

- have them check the cylinder to see if it's salvageable. if so, then I will have them bore it and get a new set of pistons and rebuild it for me

- if the cylinder cannot be saved, then I will probably step up to an LS3 block and move to a 418ci. if I were to replace the ls2 block and replace just the 1 piston, that would be an option, but it wouldn't save me a lot of money in the end ($600 or so). so why not go for the cubes while I'm at it...

Either way, they should be able to use my crank and rods.

The next question is the head... At a minimum, I need a new set of springs and retainers, and 1 intake valve. They offered up a package to apply their CNC port work to my castings and do the springs, valves, retainers, etc. That's the 'low cost' option, and should be pretty good. Option two is to repair the guide, valve, seat and sell those, and replace them with one of their PRC 250 or 260cc square port heads. The smaller port volume with larger cfm should net me a bit more power. I'm leaning that direction at the moment...

Finally, while I have this opportunity, I'm seeking out a few people that seem to have a lot of knowledge in developing cam specs for single plan LS intake setups now. 5 years ago, there wasn't much knowledge in this area. But now, a lot more people have done them. I think there is some real potential in this combination with some cam optimization! I happen to be traveling to North Carolina this week, and one of these shops is located there in Mt. Airy. So I may try to swing by and have a conversation with him about my options... I would expect him to offer some insight into my head selection as well. Unfortunately I'm pretty tied to the Victor Jr. due to the work we have in my shaker to get that to all fit. Not that it's a bad intake, but there are certainly options that could be better!

Ok, that's the update for now... Again, thank you goes out to Steve for all the help this week! And also to Eric for squeezing me into the shop when he had a couple of projects coming in. We are going to slide TOW up and out of his way while the engine work comes together...

GregWeld

01-18-2015, 01:22 PM

We are, of course, all suffering with you. As many of us have walked in your shoes... and we feel your pain.

There seems to be a common issue with this set up.... and that is -- a very fat fueling issue. IF this was my car I'd be searching high and low for the cause before wasting another motor. That can get expensive real quickly! Ask me how I know! LOL

There's many cause's for EFI to get false O2 readings. Leaky injector... bad MAP... a bad heating circuit allowing the sensor to cool off during idling... a burned or unseated exhaust valve... leaky exhaust... just to list a few. The O2 sensor plays a very critical role in fueling the engine... but it can only do one thing - read the oxygen in the exhaust.

The odds of having TWO failed O2 sensors with so few miles just seems very very unlikely. These things are pretty robust. Something else is awry. What that is - is your treasure hunt.

With the motor out of the car -- I'd start with the wiring - and it's routing. All of the sensors run on very low voltage. Interference from outside sources is so easily overlooked. A shared power source. A misplaced bundle zip tie wrapping a high voltage/high amperage wire bundle with some sensor wiring... a high resistance ground.

I'd leave no wire untouched. I'd review the power supply to the ECU and I'd make sure it's supply is conditioned by the battery. Basically I'd be putting a fresh set of eyeballs on every single facet of the wiring and placement of the components. There's something going on here and ya just have to find it. If nothing else you'll sleep better knowing you gave it a good look-see.

carbuff

01-18-2015, 01:49 PM

Greg,

I agree, there is an issue causing the car to run rich. I have a feeling that the catch can has contributed to this by pulling oil into the engine, then pushing it out the exhaust and into the sensor.

When we pulled the exhaust, I was actually looking for any signs of leaks. Eric has done a nice job of sealing it all up though: I saw no signs of carbon at any of the joints or welds.

It will be relatively easy for me to check continuity between the ECU and the O2 sensor connector with everything pulled apart, and I was already planning to do that. I found the pinout and wiring information from Holley, so I will use a meter to confirm the wires are all in the correct positions. The Holley HP EFI software will tell me if it thinks there is a problem with the sensor, and it was not reporting one. That doesn't mean that there isn't though. It can be working, but be 'off' as this one is acting...

I'll find the problem. And also, before I spend much time driving the car after this build, I will get it back on a dyno with a second O2 sensor again to make sure mine is reporting correctly! I definitely do NOT want to do this again!!!

GregWeld

01-18-2015, 02:12 PM

I know you're on it Bryan -- I'm just searching my little cranium trying to find a reason....

carbuff

01-18-2015, 02:52 PM

And I appreciate the brain storming! :)

The other thing I'm going to try is to move the sensor from the passenger's side tube to the driver's side tube. I can rule out anything strange about one side since the 2 are isolated.

The only other thing I've contemplated is whether there is anything about using oval tubing that could cause the sensor to read strangely. I have googled to try and see if anyone else has reported anything like this, and so far I haven't found anything. I get the impression that having the sensor out of the middle / direct path of the flow can be good because there is less likelihood of any liquid hitting the sensor.

GregWeld

01-18-2015, 02:55 PM

I'd run it in the collector just before your flange.... keeping it on the top of the collector the best you can.

Sieg

01-18-2015, 05:51 PM

I'd run it in the collector just before your flange.... keeping it on the top of the collector the best you can.

AEM recommended my sensor be mounted at a minimum 10* downward angle.

Correct?

GregWeld

01-18-2015, 06:45 PM

AEM recommended my sensor be mounted at a minimum 10* downward angle.

Correct?

I've had 'em at 9 O'clock (looking from the rear) and 12 O'clock..

I think it's mostly that you don't put 'em in the bottom half where stuff could hit 'em etc. better to keep them up and protected. And not to far back from the collector. I think it needs to stay within the first 18" IIRC. But why not put it in the collector.... is my thinking.

carbuff

01-18-2015, 06:48 PM

Here's a picture of the bottom of the car. The recommendations I have seen are that the sensor should be about 8" downstream of the collector for this sensor and system. As I understand it, the narrowband sensors need to be as close to the engine as possible, as they rely on the engine heat to heat the sensor element. The wideband for the Holley is self-heating, and it actually needs to be far enough downstream that it doesn't overheat from the engine's heat.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20141108_161056_zpstgtlzmsk.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20141108_161056_zpstgtlzmsk.jpg.html)

GregWeld

01-18-2015, 07:02 PM

I'm not an expert on them at all Bryan -- I've installed a few -- and haven't had any issues with this sensor where I've placed them. I think the heated version heat themselves to about 900*..... I've even seen them where they're probably only reading two of the four cylinders and they read just fine. They need to be burned clean - so "hot" is a good thing.

Some guys run "dumps" with basically a muffler not far back from the collector and a very short downturn pipe on the end. In that case I'd want it far enough from that "opening" that it wouldn't see any reversion - but your system has full pipes so that's not an issue worth mentioning.

My basic understanding is that you want them hot - and in full stream of the exhaust....

I've had faulty MAP sensor -- that was a PITA! And I've had TWO faulty TPS.... one that would just "break down" after driving for awhile. Had to do data logging several times to find that one.

Solid LT1

01-18-2015, 07:55 PM

Before dumping a bunch of money re-sleeving the block I hope your aware that the LS2 block is probably the best bang for the $$$$ in LS performance. Pricing a new block at Summit.....they are $1120.00. I would reuse your existing parts and buy a set of shaft rockers before spending the $$$ for an LS3 upgrade.....I take it the motor is pretty low mileage and all other 7 cylinders are in good shape. Sleeves are great if you plan on dumping a big load of N2O or blower/turbo upgrade, if your staying normally aspirated there isn't any big advantage in installing a set of sleeves. You might want to check over on the Corvette Forum, LS1 Tech or other sites for a quality LS builder if you don't already know of one. Good luck on the rebuild, I really like your Bird!

71RS/SS396

01-19-2015, 02:28 AM

71RS/SS396

01-19-2015, 02:53 AM

The 02 should be 6-8" back from the last tube in the header, if you put it in the collector it will read the cylinder it's closest to.
I'm not sure that it is rich, after looking at the pics I suspect the oil it's ingesting from the pcv is what you're seeing on the pistons. You need to address your venting as this can cause a whole host of problems. What pcv vent are you using? Most, if not all of these do not work properly. I put a restricter in the vacuum line to slow the velocity. I would also vent both valve covers to a catch can. The LS engines have horrible windage problems and need a lot of topend ventilation to deal with it. The path you're headed down with a larger stroke is going to make it worse since you're basically installing a bigger fan in the crankcase.

Che70velle

01-19-2015, 05:11 AM

Payton King

01-19-2015, 08:25 AM

Agreed on the oil windage. I ened up using 2 catch cans on my car to solve the problem. Just like Tim stated, you will need to pull from both valve covers and from the valley tray. Kurt Urban ( http://kurturbanperformance.net/home/ )is the man on the LS stuff, let Tim guide you to the promosed land.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/163733_5af0cb74b9_low_res.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/163733_5af0cb74b9_low_res.jpg.html)

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/163735_ebe58965c4_low_res.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/163735_ebe58965c4_low_res.jpg.html)

GregWeld

01-19-2015, 10:27 AM

WHAT HE SAID.....

"to do items" on your list...

Talk to Urban

Talk to Tim

Go to Salt Lick for lunch... or Franklins...

See ya at the Lonestar Roundup... 18 or us are driving down for it.

Sieg

01-19-2015, 11:50 AM

I've had 'em at 9 O'clock (looking from the rear) and 12 O'clock..

I think it's mostly that you don't put 'em in the bottom half where stuff could hit 'em etc. better to keep them up and protected. And not to far back from the collector. I think it needs to stay within the first 18" IIRC. But why not put it in the collector.... is my thinking.
AEM referenced condensation effecting the sensor long-term, so the downward angle allows it to drain off vs in.

Downstream from the collector gets a better mixture blend from the individual primaries......as my brain perceived it when I cut the hole in my system.

Sieg

01-19-2015, 11:57 AM

The LS engines have horrible windage problems and need a lot of topend ventilation to deal with it. The path you're headed down with a larger stroke is going to make it worse since you're basically installing a bigger fan in the crankcase.
Tim - Is this the case for all versions of the LS platform?

Has the issue been resolved with the new LT1/4 and rumored LTX & LT5?

GregWeld

01-19-2015, 04:07 PM

AEM referenced condensation effecting the sensor long-term, so the downward angle allows it to drain off vs in.

Downstream from the collector gets a better mixture blend from the individual primaries......as my brain perceived it when I cut the hole in my system.

Yes -- all of that -- I've seen people put them "where convenient" which meant right where any condensation would pool.

When you look at the various locations in various factory installs... they're all over the map... so I've never gotten a "clue" about the utmost perfect location. I think - High and dry - downstream of the collector for a good clean sample - and most should be good.

I could tell a funny story about the guy that put an LS2 in - and didn't bother to hook up ANY PCV... and spent quite a bit of money trying to find out what was "squealing"... including removing and replacing the transmission... Ross Perot summed it up best. That giant sucking sound....

++++++++++++++++++++++++

So Bryan.... you live in TEXAS and don't go to The Salt Lick... and haven't ever heard of Don Hardy Race Engines... which means you've never heard of Don Hardy. That's two strikes.

You also have a real good LS tuner.... that builds some serious bad ass CTSV's and late model Corvettes... up near Dallas/Ft Worth... ADVANCED MODERN PERFORMANCE in Arlington

http://www.advancedmodernperformance.com/amp_services.html

carbuff

01-19-2015, 07:45 PM

The 02 should be 6-8" back from the last tube in the header, if you put it in the collector it will read the cylinder it's closest to.

That's the same basic info that I received when we placed it where we did. At this point, I'm almost 100% convinced that the mis-connected PCV catchcan is my problem. The oil has likely spattered on the sensor element, preventing it from getting a true reading.

I'm not sure that it is rich, after looking at the pics I suspect the oil it's ingesting from the pcv is what you're seeing on the pistons. You need to address your venting as this can cause a whole host of problems.

Agreed. The problem is simple: we connected it backwards. Just a simple screwup, and it's already being addressed since the can is off the car. We have to remake one hose, and it's all fixed. D'oh! :hitaxeonthehead:

What pcv vent are you using?

The Mike Norris unit. I wasn't aware that there were general problems with the aftermarket cans?

I put a restricter in the vacuum line to slow the velocity.

Good idea.

I would also vent both valve covers to a catch can. The LS engines have horrible windage problems and need a lot of topend ventilation to deal with it. The path you're headed down with a larger stroke is going to make it worse since you're basically installing a bigger fan in the crankcase.

Not sure how to do this... Currently, the driver's side is connected to the air cleaner as the input. The passenger side is also connected to the air cleaner as input. The barb on the valley is connected to the catch can, and the other side of that is connected to the vacuum port on the TB. Those are what will be corrected when we reassemble.

From all I read on the subject, this is how it's supposed to be connected I think... I want to get the vapors out of the valley, and the fresh air from the valve covers.

carbuff

01-19-2015, 07:47 PM

Agreed, all that most systems do on these LS engines is fill the intake with an oil like gel. Bryan, have you looked at the plugs? Spark plugs are tattletales, and reading them has become a lost art. This engine shut off at 5500 I think you said, so it would be ideal to take a close looksey at the plugs.

I will try and look at them the next time I'm there. As I recall, they look like it's run rich. Definitely don't look 'correct'.

I do have oil in the intake and head ports, but again that's due to the mis-connected catch can, I think. I was trying to correct an issue with the PCV system, and instead I created one. :(

carbuff

01-19-2015, 07:48 PM

Agreed on the oil windage. I ened up using 2 catch cans on my car to solve the problem. Just like Tim stated, you will need to pull from both valve covers and from the valley tray. Kurt Urban ( http://kurturbanperformance.net/home/ )is the man on the LS stuff, let Tim guide you to the promosed land.

Where does the fresh air enter the system if you route all of the connections to the catch cans, which have a vacuum source on the other side? :headscratch:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/163735_ebe58965c4_low_res.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/paytonking/media/163735_ebe58965c4_low_res.jpg.html)

Ah, so clean! :)

carbuff

01-19-2015, 07:49 PM

WHAT HE SAID.....

"to do items" on your list...

Talk to Urban

Talk to Tim

Go to Salt Lick for lunch... or Franklins...

See ya at the Lonestar Roundup... 18 or us are driving down for it.

Great plan, except the Franklin wait... 3 hours for bbq! It was worth it, once... ;)

carbuff

01-19-2015, 08:12 PM

So heres today's update... The news is mixed.

First the bad news. When I pulled the passenger side head off, this is what I found:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_133447_zpsiqyfxbzu.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_133447_zpsiqyfxbzu.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162901_zpss0ocnttg.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162901_zpss0ocnttg.jpg.html)

After some head scratching, and then looking at the driver's side head, we realized that the bent valve broke the valve guide (which is powdered metal on the L92 heads from GM), and a piece of that bounced up off the valve, into the plenum, and down into the #2 cylinder. It beat up the top of the piston pretty good, and it's left shrapnel embedded into the head surface. It's fairly rough, but I'm hoping that the head can be milled to smooth out the surface without dropping the chamber size too small for my desired PTV clearance and compression ratio.

Here is the valve and broken guide:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162942_zpso4vtxowp.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162942_zpso4vtxowp.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162828_zpsg5tfgvly.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150119_162828_zpsg5tfgvly.jpg.html)

So, onto the better news. After getting past this, and taking Eric to lunch, we loaded the rest of the shortblock into the truck and I ran it over to Texas Speed. I have decided to forego the sleeved block idea (too much time, money, and not enough bang for the buck). We unloaded it there and their head machinist took a look at it. After some discussion, they backed off their previous limit of only taking the bore to 4.010" on this block and say they can go to 4.030" on it. BUT, it's still not clear whether that will be enough to clean this up or not.

The plan at this point is for them to disassemble the short block, check all of the cylinders to see if there is any more damage (thankfully the walls on #2 don't look to be damaged, just the piston and head), and get back with me. I expect to hear from them by Wednesday. If the block is salvageable, we are going to bore it, get a new set of pistons, and put it back together. If not, I'm getting an LS3 block, boring to 4.070" and running it as a 418ci .

Now, the other thing I did today was spend an hour and a half on the phone with Brian Tooley of Brian Tooley Racing. He's been doing LS work for almost as long as the LS has been around. He originally founded TEA, which he sold to Summit Racing (didn't know that) in 2004, and he now does parts sales and cam work. I've known of him for a long time, but in my recent research, I learned that he's been spending a good bit of time learning about what works and what doesn't with the single plane intakes for the LS engines.

During our long phone call, we discussed my current cam and performance level, my current heads and alternative options, and what I would like to end up with after all of this. It turns out that he recently did a big dyno study of the effects of valve timing on performance in the LS engines with the single plane Victor Jr. (my intake) and the L92 heads (my heads) out of the box (mine have had some work done). So he had some great data to share.

We have ended up on a plan that involves me sending my heads to TEA for the repairs, then to him for some touch up work in the ports and chambers, and then back to me with his valve springs installed. He is also going to spec out a custom cam grind for me, one which allows me to run more compression (~ 11.5 to 11.75:1) and will help my midrange powerband. I'm really excited about this step!

Today was a long day of research and phone calls, then running to Eric's to tear the engine apart, running it over to TSP, then packaging up the heads to get them on the way to TEA. I had to get it all done today as I leave town tomorrow for a week... I'm still pushing to get it all back together by March 1st, which will give me 2 weeks to break it in and tune it before the Fort Worth GG and USCA the weekend after. The long pole will be the heads. I'm going to lose 2 weeks just to shipping on them. But I think the results will be worth it!

I gotta go pack now! Early flight tomorrow... More news as it trickles in from TEA and TSP.

Payton King

01-20-2015, 10:06 AM

glassman

01-20-2015, 01:32 PM

So Bryan, why not the heads n cam package from TSP?, curious cause thats probably the route i'm going....

Flash68

01-20-2015, 05:10 PM

Sounds like you've got a good plan Brian.

carbuff

01-20-2015, 06:46 PM

I did not vent fresh air to the motor. Both valve covers pulled through to one of the canisters and then into the port on the front of the manifold. Valley (PCV) to other canister and then to port on throttle body.

Payton,

If you have a sealed engine, and are pulling vacuum on all of the ports, then how are you actually getting airflow to remove the vapors from the crankcase? Just trying to understand if you were trying to evac the system, or trying to create a bit of a vacuum pump effect?

carbuff

01-20-2015, 06:50 PM

So Bryan, why not the heads n cam package from TSP?, curious cause thats probably the route i'm going....

I have seriously considered getting a set of their heads, and that is still an option if mine are damaged... But, they admittedly don't have much experience at all with single plane setups since they focus their engine/heads/cam packages on specific vehicles. The vehicles all require the plastic intakes to fit under the hoods...

I have done a lot of research into the single planes, and there just aren't a lot of people who really focus on those setups. BTR has done a lot of dyno work on these setups to compare cam specs, and that's why I sought him out.

The TSP/PRC setups seem to be great for the composite intakes if that is what you are sticking with!

71RS/SS396

01-21-2015, 02:30 AM

Not sure how to do this... Currently, the driver's side is connected to the air cleaner as the input. The passenger side is also connected to the air cleaner as input. The barb on the valley is connected to the catch can, and the other side of that is connected to the vacuum port on the TB. Those are what will be corrected when we reassemble.

From all I read on the subject, this is how it's supposed to be connected I think... I want to get the vapors out of the valley, and the fresh air from the valve covers.

You can keep it connected to the air filter base but I would put tubes pointing vertically that almost touch the lid to give it more distance for the oil to drain back to the valve cover. I still prefer to have a line from each valve cover going to a vented catch can as I feel it keeps the intact track cleaner.

71RS/SS396

01-21-2015, 02:34 AM

Tim - Is this the case for all versions of the LS platform?

Has the issue been resolved with the new LT1/4 and rumored LTX & LT5?

I haven't really looked at the LT engines yet, but from what I've seen they will have the same problem since it's still a skirted block so the bay to bay breathing will not be any better. If you look at early LS blocks and later LS blocks you can see GM tried to improve the bay to bay breathing with larger scallops near the pan rail.

Payton King

01-21-2015, 06:06 AM

There is plenty of positive pressure in a running motor, no need to let fresh air in to get the "blow by" out.

Sounds like Tim runs his the same way I am speaking.

Street driving, I would empty both cans about 500 miles. Track day, after each session.

GregWeld

01-21-2015, 06:20 AM

Better yet ===== never have to worry about draining.... while the motor is out and the pan is off add a bung/fitting and have the catch can drain directly back to the motor.

carbuff

01-21-2015, 07:04 PM

Better yet ===== never have to worry about draining.... while the motor is out and the pan is off add a bung/fitting and have the catch can drain directly back to the motor.

:idea:

carbuff

01-21-2015, 07:12 PM

I'm traveling, so this update will be brief.

Another good news / bad news day. Good news: TSP says they can clean up the cylinder with just a 0.005" bore! I'm really surprised by this, but they are confident they can do it. So I can utilize my existing LS2 block. YAY!

Bad news: when they completed the tear down, the main and rod journals have been scuffed by something in the oil. That's going to mean turning the crank. But to add insult to injury, this crank, which was supposedly new, has already had the mains turned 0.010"! :(

Now the real kicker. TSP doesn't turn cranks, and they don't know anyone in Austin that they trust to turn this one. It's a Callies DragonSlayer which is supposedly hardened after being cut. I think they really don't want to trust having a shop turn a pricier crank like this. So they want to send it back to Callies to do it. The problem there is that it could take 3 weeks or so to get that done. I'm waiting for a call back to confirm that turnaround time...

I'm going to have them replace the oil pump also during this rebuild. I actually don't want the high volume pump in there it currently has, so we are going to use the Melling high pressure pump instead. I won't have a choice in that now after this discovery, so it's good that I was already planning on that...

It will be interesting to see if there is any damage to the cam journals. He didn't mention it, but I am planning to replace the cam anyway...

Che70velle

01-21-2015, 08:15 PM

Flash68

01-22-2015, 01:07 AM

Bryan, Callie's utilizes two different types of hardening processes on their Dragonslayer, Magnum, and Stealth crankshafts. Perma-tough, and Dura-tough.
The tricky part is figuring out which process was used on your crank, because apparently some Dragonslayer cranks brought into America (the Dragonslayer is made in Asia) receive a Perma-tough process, and some receive a Dura-tough process. The Perma-tough process is most desirable, because it allows the crank to be turned out to roughly .060, and won't need re-hardened.
The Dura-tough process, not so much. .010 is getting into the outer edge of the good stuff, and once you get out to .020, well it will need to be re-hardened.
I find conflicting info concerning what cranks get which process, and I don't know how you'd figure that part out. The re-hardening process will be costly, because it typically means re-truing the entire crank, due to the heat causing it to be distorted.
If your in a hurry, you might want to simply buy a new one, and sell the one you have. Great news on the block, by the way! As Greg Weld says, and I quote, "Ain't hot ridding fun!"

Scott, that is good info. I bought a used Callies Magnum XL (came in the motor I bought) that was sent out to Marine Crankshaft in Socal for some repair and a cryo process I believe? (I cant' recall - it was well over a year ago now) because it was the only place in the state here that my 70 yr old engine builder trusted. What do you know about the crank? I'll have to see if I can dig up any info on it.

Bryan, not sure I would rush some of these decisions for one event... there will be plenty others and I think I'd want the thing done right -- by the right people. Just feels like that is influencing you quite a bit here and ask that you take a hard look at that thought process. Ya know? :cheers:

Che70velle

01-22-2015, 04:19 AM

Scott, that is good info. I bought a used Callies Magnum XL (came in the motor I bought) that was sent out to Marine Crankshaft in Socal for some repair and a cryo process I believe? (I cant' recall - it was well over a year ago now) because it was the only place in the state here that my 70 yr old engine builder trusted. What do you know about the crank? I'll have to see if I can dig up any info on it.

Bryan, not sure I would rush some of these decisions for one event... there will be plenty others and I think I'd want the thing done right -- by the right people. Just feels like that is influencing you quite a bit here and ask that you take a hard look at that thought process. Ya know? :cheers:

The Magnum XL series cranks are designed to be used in maximum output race efforts, and are lightweight. They are nitrided for hardness, which is a process that is done in a vacuum, that removes the oxygen content from the steel, and actually diffuses nitrogen, hence the name, into the surface of the crankshaft. This is the basic jest, to the process, which is very involved, and has many other ways of being done also. These crankshafts are nice!
Was this crank for an LS engine? Sorry to hijack, Bryan! :innocent:

Payton King

01-22-2015, 06:41 AM

GregWeld

01-22-2015, 06:50 AM

Big mistake to build a motor based on some artificial timeframe vs building to a particular plan. I agree with Flashythingy here (never thought I'd say that!). Make sure all your parts and pieces choices are made because they're the right parts and pieces. The minute you stray from that.. and one little "noise" is heard - or something doesn't run quite right... you'll lose sleep over having made a "quick" choice. It haunts a guy. Don't be a haunted guy.

Sieg

01-22-2015, 07:04 AM

Not to spend your money again, but it may be easier just to buy a completed shortblock and sell your other stuff...sounds to me like you will end up with about the same amount of money in either with more time in getting yours together. I would price it out both ways, which I am sure you have.
If you want to meet your timeline the shortblock makes sense and most likely will come some sort of functional warranty.

Give some merit to the old adage 'haste makes waste' and analyze what you're doing and why right now from 20,000'.

carbuff

01-22-2015, 01:54 PM

Thanx guys... I agree with all of you, and even though I may sound like I am doing it, I won't scrimp on any selections just to meet the event timelines. I completely agree that I would regret that down the road. But I should be able to accomplish a simple engine rebuild in a 6-week timeframe, right???

Now, that said, nothing can be simple with this project, so I got 2 more doses of bad news today that are pretty much going to make my decision for me. I hadn't heard back from TSP about the crank, so I decided to call Callies directly myself to see what the story is. It turns out that every crank is serialized, so with the serial number they could tell me what was originally done to it. This crank was nitrided, and per my 2 discussions with Callies today, it should be rehardened after being turned.

Interestingly, it turns out they don't do the machine work and hardening in-house on a fix like this. They have a local place do the work for them. So they gave me their number to call. Shaftech in Ohio. I called them to see what we could do, and they also confirmed the need to reharden. BUT, they don't do it in house (even though their website implies that they do). They would do the machine work and ship it out for hardening, then back to me. They also quoted me 3.5 - 4 weeks to do the work, and a price of $525. Yikes!

At that price, and on that timeframe, I'm not sure if makes sense to repair this crank myself. So I made the second call to Callies to discuss my options. I wanted to understand the difference between their DragonSlayer cranks (which is mine) and their Compstar line (the step down). The Compstar is forged and rough-cut overseas and finish cut here, while the DragonSlayer is forged and cut in the US. But the real difference is the intended application. The Compstar is good for about 900HP while the DragonSlayer is good to about 1500. This engine will never see those levels, so the Compstar should be fine for me.

Ok, decision made, or so I thought... The other little trick here is that the original engine was built with 2.00" rod journals. The LS standard is 2.10" journals. It would seem the 2.00" journals are not popular. Callies lists a part number on their website for the Compstar with a 4.00" stroke and the 2.00" rod journals, but apparently they don't actually make that one anymore. So if I want to use those journals, I'm back to the Dragonslayer.

This means my options are:

- buy a Dragonslayer and use my 2.00" journals connecting rods
- buy a Compstar crank and a new set of 2.10" connecting rods

Given those options, I'm back to considering abandoning ship on salvaging parts from this engine shortblock and looking at TSP building me a completely new one. I've asked them to price me out using my block (which I can still use) and just do a completely new 402 (actually 405 I think) ci rotating assembly, and additionally pricing out a completely new 418ci shortblock. I'm about sure that I'll do one of these, and sell off the leftover pieces that I have. The crank and rods will make a nice setup for someone who is on a timeline that can have it fixed...

So I'm back to making another decision tomorrow. Hopefully my heads arrive at TEA so that they can determine the chamber volume and I can finalize my piston selection. That may not happen until Monday though.

While I'm at this project, I'm going to add an Accusump to the car. I don't want to take any chances on losing oil pressure with this setup after this investment! I'm sure that I probably caused the crank damage with some pressure loss at either an auto-x or a track day. I've had the oil pressure light blip on me before in extended-G turns. So I can't say that I'm completely surprised by the crank damage, I just didn't expect it to cause so many problems in the rebuild...

carbuff

01-22-2015, 02:00 PM

And since this thread has turned into my own little bitch-thread, I have one more for today. OK, maybe two...

Since September, I've been chasing some kind of leak from my radiator. It was just enough to occasionally smell as well as get a few drops on the belly pan. I thought it was the lower hose, so I switched that out a few months ago. But that didn't stop it.

I pulled the radiator last weekend as part of the motor pull, and Eric pressurized it for me today. He dropped me a note saying it's got a pretty good leak in an area that he can't get to to repair. Neither of us know a place we trust locally to get in there and work on it, so I'm shipping it back to the manufacturer to try and fix it. Hopefully they will be sympathetic to the fact that it only has about 3800 miles on it, and it SHOULDN'T be leaking already. We'll see how that goes...

Oh, did I mention that I'm spending the weekend helping my girlfriend clean up from massive water damage in her mountain cabin caused by the water line on a refrigerator bursting while no one was here for 10 days? In between my own stuff, we've been meeting with plumbers, HVAC people, insurance adjusters, disaster recovery people, and the leasing company... Fun!

The hits just keep on coming...

SSLance

01-22-2015, 02:11 PM

Man Bryan, quite the week for you. And I felt bad that I'm dropping everything and running to FL for 10 days to help my MIL move out of her store...when I'd much rather be at home putting my car back together.

Sounds like to me that you are doing the legwork needed to figure out the best course of action for you. Remember this, it's a hobby... Don't let setbacks take the fun out of it for you. You aren't making a living by getting to that next event. Try to keep it in the fun realm if you can.

Che70velle

01-22-2015, 03:23 PM

Bryan, I'm perplexed about the conversation that you had on the phone with Callies. Doesn't affect the situation that your in, but I'm simply posting some info to explain why I've posted what I did, and I don't want to mis-lead anyone.
Copied and pasted, straight from the website...

DragonSlayer crankshafts are Made in Asia . With an expanded line of part numbers, the DragonSlayer is rapidly setting the standard by which other Sportsman crankshafts are measured.

These shafts are machined to the tolerances demanded by today’s high performance engine builder. Roundness and taper are held to less than .0003 on all rod and main journal diameters. Our final polishing procedures produce excellent load carrying surfaces that ensure extended bearing life and trouble free operation.

Each Callies DragonSlayer receives our unique Dura-Tough heat treatment. This process has proven to add extended long-term value to these highly stressed components. Callies heat treat expertise combined with our high purity premium 4340 forging produce strength of unparalleled value. All DragonSlayers are produced with standard Chevy rod journal diameters and widths for SBC, BBC, LS1, and Mopar applications.

WSSix

01-22-2015, 04:56 PM

Better yet ===== never have to worry about draining.... while the motor is out and the pan is off add a bung/fitting and have the catch can drain directly back to the motor.

You can put an inline check valve on the return to pan line that opens once oil above the valve becomes too much for the valve to stay closed against. Cummins has this on their engines for the breather for the exact same reasons.

carbuff

01-22-2015, 06:33 PM

Scott,

Based on running into a part number on the site that has been discontinued, it's possible that the site has out of date information. I've read other sites that explicitly say the DragonSlayer is USA forged and cut/finished at their US facilities, while the CompStar is forged and rough cut overseas with a US finish. So it seems like there are different marketing materials in different places...

I appreciated you posting the information. I had an option I was looking at in which I would have had the crank turned locally. If not for your post, I wouldn't have pursued the knowledge further. So keep any relevant data coming! :)

GregWeld

01-22-2015, 08:10 PM

71RS/SS396

01-23-2015, 02:37 AM

If I had to buy a crank I wouldn't stick with the small journal sizes, the bearing options become far more limited with the smaller sizes.
FWIW the bearing damaged was NOT caused by debris from the valve spring incident. Something else caused this, the broken valve spring likely saved you from turning the whole thing into a boat anchor. I'm going to do some checking today at the shop, I may have a solution for you. Text me before you buy anything.

carbuff

01-23-2015, 08:06 AM

The reason people don't like the smaller journals is that there is actually more rotational speed and load on the bearing with a smaller journal... speed and friction create heat. Heat is bad. While .10 difference seemingly is "small" == when you're revving at 6,000 rpms - all the math adds up quickly.

Greg, I don't quite follow this... I understand the potential for additional load (less circumference to absorb the same load), but shouldn't there be less rotational speed with the smaller journal? With the less circumference, spinning the same engine RPM, wouldn't the rotational speed be lower? Doesn't really matter I suppose, but was just trying to get that in my head.

By the way -- I hate aluminum radiators. Old cars were never made to support big aluminum radiators... we "wrack"(?)(twist 'em) them and the tank to fin area doesn't like that!!

The fix?? Isolate the hell out of it... don't bolt it straight to the core support... Get some wubba (rubber) in there. Or have it supported in a way that the radiator "floats" on it's mounts.

The radiator in my car does 'float'. I think the 1st gens were mounted to the core support, but the second gens sit in 2 rubber bumpers at the bottom, and the cover panel holds it down from the top. So there should be plenty of ability to flex in my car. I really don't think that was the problem...

It's on it's way back to PRC now, should get there Tuesday, and I'll find out what the heck happened.

carbuff

01-23-2015, 08:16 AM

If I had to buy a crank I wouldn't stick with the small journal sizes, the bearing options become far more limited with the smaller sizes.

Understood... I wouldn't have selected it myself if building the motor, but it was already there since this was complete when purchased.

FWIW the bearing damaged was NOT caused by debris from the valve spring incident. Something else caused this, the broken valve spring likely saved you from turning the whole thing into a boat anchor.

I agree with that also. The bearing damage was likely done during either a track day or an autocross during some long high-speed turns. I have had my oil pressure light blip on me before during those events, so it's likely that I lost pressure long enough to do damage.

To prevent this, I'm going to add the Accusump to help prevent these kinds of problems in the future. I'm also going to a normal volume pump instead of the high-volume pump. Finally, I may switch lifters to get rid of the plastic lifter trays that I think can hold oil. Mine have been drilled, but it still seems they could be a source of problems. Thoughts on that topic?

I'm going to do some checking today at the shop, I may have a solution for you. Text me before you buy anything.

Will do. I owe you a PM about Sunday also. Will reply shortly...

Thanx again everyone for the suggestions and knowledge you've all shared. I'm still learning about the LS internals since this is my first time digging into one...

Che70velle

01-23-2015, 01:39 PM

The reason people don't like the smaller journals is that there is actually more rotational speed and load on the bearing with a smaller journal... speed and friction create heat. Heat is bad. While .10 difference seemingly is "small" == when you're revving at 6,000 rpms - all the math adds up quickly.

Sorry to hear of all your headaches Bryan! Been there - done that.

By the way -- I hate aluminum radiators. Old cars were never made to support big aluminum radiators... we "wrack"(?)(twist 'em) them and the tank to fin area doesn't like that!!

My Nomad was a master at it. #1 the standard radiator had a tank on the top and bottom and was narrow. We then modify our cars and put a WIDE radiator in with tanks on the sides... Then we add stiff suspension (over stock) - big fat ass tires... drive our cars like they're Porsches... beat on them... and then wonder why that poor radiator couldn't take it.

The fix?? Isolate the hell out of it... don't bolt it straight to the core support... Get some wubba (rubber) in there. Or have it supported in a way that the radiator "floats" on it's mounts.

Greg, your mostly correct concerning the smaller rod journal diameter. It does have the POTENTIAL to create more heat, because there is a greater load on the smaller bearing (all things being equal), but the rotational speeds, at the bearing surface, will be slower. You have to think radius here. Why people DO like the smaller rod journals, is because it gives you the opportunity to run a lighter rod/rod bearing combo, which allows an engine to accelerate quicker. You nailed it on the radiator twist info, however.
Ok, carry on people...

Panteracer

01-23-2015, 01:57 PM

I always thought a smaller journal was easier
to keep lubricated... thus keeps from having dry spots
and spinning bearings.. I think my dart has smaller
journals like a cleveland in a windsor style block

Also same thing with Pontiacs ...400's have a smaller
journal than a 455.. bore etc are the same but it
has an advantage.

Accumulator or dry sump is the best bet in
motors with issues.. never seemed to be a problem
with my dart block.. always a problem with my
Pontiacs... spun many a bearing in my time even
a DZ 302 motor.. but as at kid 8000 rpm was cool

I have tried many pans with sumps three trap doors etc
never seemed to work on a Pontiac

Bob

Bob

Flash68

01-23-2015, 03:38 PM

glassman

01-24-2015, 08:15 AM

:popcorn2:

carbuff

01-24-2015, 08:59 AM

Not much new to report except that I got more quotes from TSP. I had a 4 hours drive yesterday during which I spent more time thinking about my combination. I realized that if I'm going to have to buy the rotating assembly, I could bump the cubes by adding stroke to the combination. I'm going to discuss this with TSP and BTW regarding my cam option, but for $50 or $100, that's a simple choice unless there is a disadvantage that I'm not aware of...

gerno

01-25-2015, 12:13 PM

I decide to not stroke mine due to lateral load on the block and extra heat. The offset is that you don't need as much RPM to make power if you do stroke it. Overall I'm happy with my HP number and feel my combo is reliable overall which is what I wanted. Just something to think about. You have to decide for yourself

Flash68

01-25-2015, 03:13 PM

I don't see 4" stroke being an issue unless you're consistently running it past 7000 rpm, and even then some will likely debate that.

Street cars like cubes and torque... and this IS a street car, right? :stirthepot:

Get the extra cubes while you have the "opportunity"...

Sieg

01-25-2015, 03:20 PM

You'll spend more time driving the meat of the torque curve than the meat of the horsepower curve......unless you're on a fast road course the majority of the time. :thumbsup:

GregWeld

01-25-2015, 05:00 PM

You'll spend more time driving the meat of the torque curve than the meat of the horsepower curve......unless you're on a fast road course the majority of the time. :thumbsup:

100%

71RS/SS396

01-26-2015, 02:05 AM

You'll spend more time driving the meat of the torque curve than the meat of the horsepower curve......unless you're on a fast road course the majority of the time. :thumbsup:

Exactly why folks should pay more attention to average horsepower numbers on a dyno sheet rather than gawdy peak numbers.

carbuff

01-26-2015, 07:57 PM

Given that I've done more autocross events than I have road course events, I could DEFINITELY use the increased torque under the curve to propel the car. That's why I'm focused on doing things with this rebuild that will improve the mid-range torque generated. I'm fighting myself given that I selected the single plane intake for this setup, but I think I can end up with a combination I'll be plenty happy with. Researching engine data for the LS platform is like a drug for me: I'm addicted to learning!

ALl that said, I'm not sure it's worth the risk to step up the stroke from the current 4.000" to 4.125". There is a lot of debate on this topic that I've been devouring the last 2 days, but I'm leaning away from it now and sticking with the known 4.0" combination.

Tim, it was good meeting you yesterday. Glad the weather cooperated and you were able to bring the Camaro out. And if you can find that info we discussed, send it on over. :)

I'm back in Austin finally, so I hope to make some moves forward this week. I haven't heard back from TEA on the status of the heads. I do need to touch base with TSP and let them know something. I can't really move forward with them until I know what I'll be doing on the heads though. If this combination is going back together, I'll need to specify the pistons to use before any of the bottom end work can start...

carbuff

01-26-2015, 07:59 PM

Maybe some other crank company makes a 4" stroke with 2" journal for LS?

Step it up and go for the 1.88 Honda journal. :)

Where's the ricer emoticon when I need it!!!

http://static.carthrottle.com/workspace/uploads/memes/logic-m8-54783a54b7d15.jpg

carbuff

01-29-2015, 07:52 PM

Time for an update...

It's not been a good week, but at least I have more data to make decisions about moving forward. Things I've found this week:

The crank needs to be turned (think I already mentioned this). Turnaround time is 3-weeks, but cost is a little less than I was previously told. So it's on the way to ShafTech to turn and re-harden.

The clutch I have is an immitation of the Monster Clutch product, made in Mexico. In talking to Monster, the pressure plate I have is problematic, and looking at the disc, I probably need to replace it. So I'm headed down the path of a full clutch and flywheel replacement.

Today I learned that the heads are toast. The first phone call I received about them told me that the valve tips seemed to have excessive wear, to the point the shop didn't want to reuse them (which may mean my rockers are toast as well). However, it seemed like they could repair the damage from the shrapnel by welding and milling the heads. About 30m later he called back to tell me the heads had been milled down to 59cc's, which is way too small for what I want to do (deck too thin). So, I have a couple of heavy paperweights now.

I've been shopping the LS forums for options on parts that I might use for the rebuild. One thing Tim educated me on last weekend was that I could use an LS7 block with a wet sump, so I've been looking for one of those. While I was traveling last week, I just missed one for sale in my backyard (30m away) that sold the day before I got back. :bang:

Then, in preparation for the possibility of the heads needing to be replaced, I was searching for aftermarket sets of those. I found a great set for sale that I was emailing with the seller about. Danged if he didn't sell those last night, so again, just missed them...

On the positive side... Eric shipped my leaking radiator back to PRC who originally manufactured it, and they agreed to repair the pinhole leak at no cost, other than shipping. So that's one little problem solved.

Also, while everything is apart, I called AGR who made the steering rack I put in the car last year. My PS pump has been making some strange noises. I got an education on pumps and racks, and I have a new pump on the way from them. Hopefully that will take care of that problem!

At this stage, I have a half-formed plan in place. With the additional problems that I've found, I've decided to get my crank fixed by ShafTech and Callies which will allow me to reuse it and my rods. Unless I stumble onto an LS7 block before the crank returns, I will go ahead and reuse my block and build it back as a 405 (4.010" bore / 4.000" stroke). I am continuing my search for a set of heads, but at a minimum I'll buy a set of CNC ported L92's. I could either get the GM CNC version, or have one of the many different shops that do the CNC work do them for me. I am going to call a few of those tomorrow to discuss pricing and lead times...

I'm probably going to get the new LT1-S twin-disc clutch setups to ensure that I don't run into a clutch issue in the near term:

http://monsterclutches.com/2004-2006-gto/gto-street-multi-disc/twin-lt1s-street-gto-clutch

Steve just installed this in his LS / T56 build and seems to like it.

That's it for now. More to come soon...

carbuff

01-29-2015, 08:10 PM

One more thing that I learned today...

The likely cause of the valve spring failure was the engine sitting for so long after being assembled. The motor was originally built back in 2007 if I remember correctly. I didn't fire it up until 2013. So there's a good chance that a few valve springs were compressed for 5+ years. It seems that can cause springs to weaken and ultimately fail. Makes complete sense, but not something I would have thought of...

glassman

01-29-2015, 08:12 PM

Hey Bryan, what heads you doing? I didn't see it on the clutch site, but is that aluminum or steel flywheel?

Hang in there bud, she'll be back in no time. Remember what you named her, and that there high maintenance haha.

Mines still hurt from Texas, suspensions back, interiors back together, but still got electrical gremlins. Josh (my local LS guru) thinks i lost my MAF, i think that may be the case (i hope) as when i drove to Texas in the GG tour, i/we drove thru that super knarley storm and i believe i got water up in the MAF.....dunno....but sucs not driving it....

carbuff

01-29-2015, 08:19 PM

I'd love to step up to some All Pro, TFS/TEA, or other similar aftermarket castings. The consensus seems mixed as to what the gains from those are over a good CNC port on the L92's though, so I'm trying to decide the best path...

On the clutch, it can be done either way. In talking to Monster, the LT1 twin has a lower moment of inertia than a normal single disc pressure plate. Given that, the clutch will have a feel (in terms of momentum to launch the car) that falls between a steel and aluminum single-disc setup. So the lightweight twin would feel really light in that sense. Given that TOW is a pretty heavy car with me in her, I don't think the lightweight setup is the way to go...

Sorry to hear that yours is still having trouble! Electrical gremlins are the worst, so I'm glad I haven't really had any of those with TOW. Hopefully you can get everything sorted before the season starts out there for you west coast guys!

71RS/SS396

01-30-2015, 03:09 AM

Solid LT1

01-31-2015, 08:11 AM

Do yourself a big favor.....talk to the machine shop and have them port and smooth the oil passages in the engine block where the oil pump mounts to the block and the front 90 degree drilling that intersects the rear oil galley going to the rear passages to the oil filter ports. Check the oil pan and filter passages and port and smooth these passages too. The oiling system on the LS motor flat out SUCKS! for extended high RPM operation. The 2.00" rod journals are fine....that is the size of the original Small Block Chevy......worked well for many years with a good multistage dry sump system.....rod/main journal sizes can be further reduced as NASCAR has done to minimize oiling system power losses by reducing oiling system demands but, you had better have a good engineer helping with system design. NASCAR made 900HP 9000+RPM motors last for 500+ hard miles of racing with small Honda/IRL rods.....typically 1.88" journals. Frankenstein cylinder heads has one of the better LS3 CNC programs at this time but, don't know how backed up they are for deliveries.....if going aftermarket it's hard to beat the TFS head or MAST LS offerings.

Sieg

01-31-2015, 10:33 AM

Just have Tim send you a Finch motor. :hello:

intocarss

01-31-2015, 10:36 AM

Talk to West Coast Cylinder heads in Reseda Ca ;)

carbuff

01-31-2015, 12:32 PM

Just have Tim send you a Finch motor. :hello:

:whistling: :idea: :secret:

carbuff

01-31-2015, 12:33 PM

Talk to West Coast Cylinder heads in Reseda Ca ;)

I left them 3 messages this week, no returned phone calls yet. I've done the same with Hotchkis, and 2 other places I am looking for information on.

Not being able to get ahold of WCCH cost me a great opportunity on a set of All Pro heads.

I imagine this is busy season for everyone, but it's frustrating that I'm having so much trouble getting peoples' time to discuss their products...

intocarss

01-31-2015, 05:23 PM

I left them 3 messages this week, no returned phone calls yet. I've done the same with Hotchkis, and 2 other places I am looking for information on.

Not being able to get ahold of WCCH cost me a great opportunity on a set of All Pro heads.

I imagine this is busy season for everyone, but it's frustrating that I'm having so much trouble getting peoples' time to discuss their products...

Yes they are very busy (not making excuses for them) And for what it's worth, I e mailed Dave from WCCH and told him about this..

carbuff

01-31-2015, 09:10 PM

I appreciate that... I can say the person answering the phone was very nice, and she even remembered me from one of my earlier calls because apparently I was very "polite" to her... ;)

intocarss

01-31-2015, 09:48 PM

I appreciate that... I can say the person answering the phone was very nice, and she even remembered me from one of my earlier calls because apparently I was very "polite" to her... ;) He said to call back Monday after 9:30.. Hope you get it taken care of.

carbuff

02-08-2015, 02:41 PM

:bang: I just typed up a huge reply with the events of the week, and somehow I lost it!!! :bur2: :bigun2: :twak: :hitaxeonthehead:

Sigh... I'll try again.

First, a quick followup on WCCH. Dave did call me Monday, so I think the message got through to them. He was able to answer most of my questions and apologized for the delay. So thanx for the help there...

I'll break up my other pieces of the story to make sure I don't lose them again...

carbuff

02-08-2015, 02:50 PM

The first big decision of the week I'm blaming on Tim. :) During our recent conversation, he explained to me that it is possible to convert the LS7 to be a wet-sump oiling system instead of a dry-sump system. While certainly I would prefer the dry-sump for any sustained track action, that would be a big chance to TOW at the moment that I'm not sure if the path I want to take. I've been planning to add an Accusump to help protect the engine, so I think I'm going to stick with that direction for now.

That said, once I started thinking about the possibility of the extra cubes from the LS7 block, I've been searching for one. I mentioned earlier that I just missed one locally, but I've managed to find one on the east coast with some searching. This one was a dealer replaced unit that seems to have had some main bearing issues. I will have the block completely machined, including being line-honed, so I don't have any big concerns about that. And with less than 5k miles on it (he says 3k), it should be a great option!

I'm definitely taking a chance on this purchase, as I found this guy on a Facebook group of all places. But I'm using Paypal for the purchase for some level of protection. So here's what it started as:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150129_182641_zpsc281dfae.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150129_182641_zpsc281dfae.jpg.html)

After he stripped it down:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150202_172518_resized_zpsc2619449.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150202_172518_resized_zpsc2619449.jpg.html)

(interesting engine 'stand')

And all boxed up for me:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150204_202718_zps9f19c30b.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/20150204_202718_zps9f19c30b.jpg.html)

It turns out that FedEx and UPS allow up to 150 pounds for ground shipments these days. So that's how it's coming. It's scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. Hopefully this all goes smoothly: I haven't always had the best luck with internet transactions. But so far, so good!

carbuff

02-08-2015, 03:11 PM

Next up: cylinder heads...

I finally was able to speak to 3 companies about their offerings. I found a brand new set of LS3 castings with springs and valves that I was all set to purchase and have worked over. This is when I 'outsmarted' myself though...

In typical engineer fashion, I created a spreadsheet to track my planned expenses for this little project. I was comparing the costs of buying the LS3 heads and working on them vs. buying an aftermarket casting. My math was telling me that I was only looking at a $500 difference. At that cost, it seems to make sense to just go for the aftermarket castings.

I ultimately decided to go with Chris Frank and Frankenstein Racing Heads. Chris has a long history in various forms of racing, one being NASCAR, and he branched out on his own a few years ago. He spent a lot of time discussing my engine, and specifically my two options (at the time) being either the 402 rebuild or the 427 upgrade. We left the conversation with me deciding whether to go with the LS3 or the Trick Flow GenX castings.

Based on my math above, I decided it was mostly a no-brainer and selected the TFS castings. Chris described 2 different port and intake valve options which I will select from, based on my displacement choice and desired engine usage/cam selection. He has also offered to tailor the port/valve combination as I need, somewhere between his two standard port selections. Since he starts with a 'head porter' casting, he doesn't have the limitations of the factory LS3 ports already being fairly large.

The other thing we discussed was my intake manifold. I'm going to have Chris port match and open up the runners a bit to match the ports on the TFS heads. He has 2 levels of porting he can do: this, which is a port match plus runner cleanup, or a full-on plenum modification to customize to my exact application. The latter is definitely overkill for me, so the port match / cleanup will be perfect.

One more nice thing about FRH is that they are located outside of Dallas. So when everything is ready, I can drive up there and pick it all up in person. I'm looking forward to checking out his operation and talking to him in person about some of the other things he does. For example, meet the Chimera billet LSx head:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/chimera_zps2adc071c.gif (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/chimera_zps2adc071c.gif.html)

Now, back to that engineer / spreadsheet comment I made earlier. I realized as I was tweaking the numbers near the end of the week that I screwed up and my math wasn't apples to apples. I almost wish I hadn't caught this, because it means the 'upgrade' to the TFS castings was a bit more of a step than I originally thought. Oops. :\ Oh well, I'm happy with the decision, just a little miffed at myself for missing that detail.

carbuff

02-08-2015, 03:27 PM

I did get some good news on the crankshaft this week. ShafTech tells me that they don't feel like it needs to be turned afterall, that it simply needs to be polished. In addition, they tell me that this shaft WAS induction hardened instead of nitride hardened. This means that it will support several turns if needed and retain its hardness factor.

I'm not sure why Callies themselves didn't tell me this based on the serial number, but I'm glad to hear it. That means that I should have it back in my possession this week instead of the 3-4 week timeframe I was hearing. So, if they get it out on Tuesday, I'll have it Friday. With the block arriving on Wednesday, that means I will be able to get the shortblock started a bit ahead of my previous schedule (the 16th or so).

Flash68

02-08-2015, 03:29 PM

Wow you really are finding out how slippery that slope is...

So are you sure you want to spend money to UN-dry-sump the new motor? You are gonna want it at some point (just be honest with yourself :))... so really, why not now vs a band-aid Accusump? I don't think you are trying to make a deadline/event like you were before...

Also, are you still married to the single plane due to the shaker? What did Frank the Tank have to say about that? (just curious)

I was comparing the costs of buying the LS3 heads and working on them vs. buying an aftermarket casting. My math was telling me that I was only looking at a $500 difference.

I don't think anyone needs a spreadsheet to tell you that math was/is off. :twak:

carbuff

02-08-2015, 03:43 PM

Let's see if I can summarize the rest of the parts and pieces...

Camshaft - again after talking to a few different vendors, I've decided to go with the one who did the cam I currently am running. Geoff Skinner from Engine Power Systems is going to spec the cam using his lobe design and have it cut by Cam Motion. I can't say enough good things about Geoff and his willingness to educate me and evaluate what I want/need. Similar to Chris Frank, he spent a lot of time on the phone with me explaining air flow, pressure differentials, MCSA and why I care, camshaft event timing and its impact on engine performance. I geeked out on this a bit.

After multiple conversation, we settled in on a grind that's slightly bigger than the cam I was running, and it should offer very similar manners due to the extra displacement. I'm excited to get this up and running with this new combination of parts!

Rocker arms - after even more research, I've decided to upgrade the GM rocker arms with the Harland Sharp trunions. Whether this is a necessary step is up for debate, but it's worth the peace of mind to me on this engine to just go ahead and do it. I've shipped them off and should have them back around the 17th or so I think. HS prices the kits about $20 cheaper than it would be to just have them do the work, so it's a simple decision. Off they go!

Lifters - I'm going to replace mine, again for peace of mind, with a set of Morel drop-in styles that will also use the GM lifter trays. Ordering those tomorrow.

Pushrods will be ordered once everything goes back together and I can determine the correct length.

I mentioned above that I'm going to add an Accusump. I've ordered that up and will work with Eric on getting it mounted. I plan to locate it just in front of the engine on the cross-tube that the sway bar passes through. There is a port on the front of the LS block that is a perfect place to tap into the system, so I'll do that using their electric control valve. I'm going to change the wiring from my Holley HP EFI to enable/disable the valve as needed, meaning that it will enable when the engine is not running (pre-lube) and also when above 2k rpm (when the oil pressure is above the pressure setting of the control valve). Canton agreed that was a good setup.

Hopefully that's it other than little things like gaskets, spark plugs, oil, hose and fittings, etc. I did research some aftermarket dry sump systems, specifically the Dailey unit that has the pump directly attached to the pan, but then I smacked myself back to reality for now... :)

I am going to replace the clutch as I previously mentioned. I am planning on the Monster Clutch street twin disc that Steve (gernon) is running. He seems to really like it. I need to confirm whether it will work with my current hydraulics though, I'll do that tomorrow.

And for the moment I've talked myself out of the Ultimate Headers that I was considering. That is going onto the post-March project list.

carbuff

02-08-2015, 03:52 PM

Wow you really are finding out how slippery that slope is...

Very, very slippery...

So are you sure you want to spend money to UN-dry-sump the new motor? You are gonna want it at some point (just be honest with yourself :))... so really, why not now vs a band-aid Accusump? I don't think you are trying to make a deadline/event like you were before...

Well, the only change is the oil pump and front cover in my case, both of which I have. I would have to go purchase an LS7 oil pump and cover, and pump, and even then I'm not sure that it's the setup I would really want to run.

I'm actually trying to be honest with myself about what I really want to do with TOW. I have some cogs turning in my head about what my next project might be, and if I go that route, TOW wouldn't be the one to see serious track time.

That said, I might well still run the Accusump even if I did run a dry-sump, for even more insurance. So if I ever do go that route, I'm not sure I see this as wasted effort at this point...

Also, are you still married to the single plane due to the shaker? What did Frank the Tank have to say about that? (just curious)

Everyone, myself included, agrees that I'm giving up some mid-range to use the single plane. I could change some things and use a composite intake and still physically keep the shaker, but I really like having something a little different. And Geoff thinks I can regain most of that torque back with the right cam combination, so I want to try that path for now... Again, the next project will probably take a different path. :)

I don't think anyone needs a spreadsheet to tell you that math was/is off. :twak:

I was surprised too the first time I saw the numbers, and the second time. It took me a few days to catch it, and then DOH! Oh well, decision made now. :)

71RS/SS396

02-09-2015, 02:45 AM

Wow you really are finding out how slippery that slope is...

So are you sure you want to spend money to UN-dry-sump the new motor? You are gonna want it at some point (just be honest with yourself :))... so really, why not now vs a band-aid Accusump? I don't think you are trying to make a deadline/event like you were before...

Also, are you still married to the single plane due to the shaker? What did Frank the Tank have to say about that? (just curious)

I don't think anyone needs a spreadsheet to tell you that math was/is off. :twak:

I already tried to talk him into the dry sump....:snapout: :lol: :hello: :poke: I'm guessing that's why the Dailey conversation happened.... :G-Dub: It's a pretty major expense and undertaking to package it into the car, ask me how I know :weld: :hairpullout:

Vega$69

02-09-2015, 06:38 AM

I converted the dry to wet on my LS7.

You need to change the pump and the drive gear and drill hole for the dip stick

carbuff

02-09-2015, 07:23 AM

I already tried to talk him into the dry sump....:snapout: :lol: :hello: :poke: I'm guessing that's why the Dailey conversation happened.... :G-Dub: It's a pretty major expense and undertaking to package it into the car, ask me how I know :weld: :hairpullout:

Actually I thought you did a pretty nice job of packaging everything in your car, although I'm sure there was plenty of work done. ;) You did tell me that you built that particular tank yourself, right?

I really did go back and forth on this, but there was just too much involved in the dry-sump conversion for this car at this point. I give you all permission to :twak: me in a few months if I'm doing this all over again and I have to say I told you so. But hopefully between solving my catch-can issue and adding the Accusump, I'll be in good shape with this setup for what I'm planning to do with it. :)

carbuff

02-09-2015, 07:24 AM

I converted the dry to wet on my LS7.

You need to change the pump and the drive gear and drill hole for the dip stick

The nice thing is that I already have all of the LS2 pieces, so the conversion should literally be just the dipstick hole drilling. That's my plan at least!

carbuff

02-09-2015, 07:26 AM

Good news to start the week. My crankshaft is shipping back today. It only needed the polish, so it was quicker than expected. It has been turned before, no idea what that's all about, but I'm thankful it was an easy fix. So I'll have the block on Wednesday and the crnak on Thursday. Friday it will all go to the machine shop to start the machine work (on the block) and re-assembly!

Flash68

02-11-2015, 12:33 AM

You're welcome. :lol:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-parts-for-sale-wanted/3598667-fs-are-stage-3-ls7-drysump.html

Sieg

02-11-2015, 07:01 AM

You're welcome. :lol:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-parts-for-sale-wanted/3598667-fs-are-stage-3-ls7-drysump.html
What are 'friends' for.............:lol:

:popcorn2:

GregWeld

02-11-2015, 08:46 AM

Some ribs and brisket from The Salt Lick --- some 3 stage dry sump and you've got a winning combo!! FTW!!

Cope --- 22 hot rods coming to town for the Roundup.... be ready!! LOL

carbuff

02-11-2015, 08:49 AM

You're welcome. :lol:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-parts-for-sale-wanted/3598667-fs-are-stage-3-ls7-drysump.html

Way ahead of you, already emailed him yesterday. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately though, as I understand it, that system works in conjunction with the stock LS7 dry sump pump. So I would have to add back in the LS7 dry sump pump, which means a different crankshaft, which as you know, snowballs quickly...

I have another piece to the puzzle that doesn't fit well too. It seems that the Wegner front drive setup that I have won't support an aftermarket dry sump pulley very easily. Wegner no longer makes and sells the kit I have, partially for this reason. Bill Dailey was the one that actually cautioned me to this, and a call to Wegner yesterday confirmed it. With this setup, there isn't room behind the damper and serpentine pulley to add a pulley for the dry sump pump. They (Wegner) would either have to craft up something custom for me, or I would have to replace the front drive I have. It wasn't even clear if I could convert my current setup over to an LS7 style crank given that they don't make this particular kit any more...

So the cost of a dry sump at this point would be dry sump system + front drive system, or new crank shaft + new rods + new front cover + ls7 pump/pan/etc + tank + misc pieces. Either path is :G-Dub:

carbuff

02-11-2015, 08:52 AM

Some ribs and brisket from The Salt Lick --- some 3 stage dry sump and you've got a winning combo!! FTW!!

Whenever I get you back down here I have a new place to take you. It's literally 1 mile from where I live, and it's what Lockhart SHOULD have been. Good stuff, I thought of you when I ate there yesterday. ;)

Cope --- 22 hot rods coming to town for the Roundup.... be ready!! LOL

I can't wait! Where are you guys staying? I need to book a room this week also... Are you staying through the second weekend for USCA?

GregWeld

02-11-2015, 08:53 AM

So..... What's your point??? LOL

Way ahead of you, already emailed him yesterday. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately though, as I understand it, that system works in conjunction with the stock LS7 dry sump pump. So I would have to add back in the LS7 dry sump pump, which means a different crankshaft, which as you know, snowballs quickly...

I have another piece to the puzzle that doesn't fit well too. It seems that the Wegner front drive setup that I have won't support an aftermarket dry sump pulley very easily. Wegner no longer makes and sells the kit I have, partially for this reason. Bill Dailey was the one that actually cautioned me to this, and a call to Wegner yesterday confirmed it. With this setup, there isn't room behind the damper and serpentine pulley to add a pulley for the dry sump pump. They (Wegner) would either have to craft up something custom for me, or I would have to replace the front drive I have. It wasn't even clear if I could convert my current setup over to an LS7 style crank given that they don't make this particular kit any more...

So the cost of a dry sump at this point would be dry sump system + front drive system, or new crank shaft + new rods + new front cover + ls7 pump/pan/etc + tank + misc pieces. Either path is :G-Dub:

GregWeld

02-11-2015, 09:02 AM

Whenever I get you back down here I have a new place to take you. It's literally 1 mile from where I live, and it's what Lockhart SHOULD have been. Good stuff, I thought of you when I ate there yesterday. ;)

I can't wait! Where are you guys staying? I need to book a room this week also... Are you staying through the second weekend for USCA?

April 15th and check out on April 19th Embassy Suites 300 Congress Ave. Austin Texas.

Bryan -- I wasn't going to do USCA -- Gwen and I are driving down in her '33 with the other Brizio crazies... But NOW -- I may arrange / ask Sutton if he wants to drive my rig down to USCA --- and see if that works. I'll have to do some poking around now.

GregWeld

02-11-2015, 09:11 AM

April 15th and check out on April 19th Embassy Suites 300 Congress Ave. Austin Texas.

Bryan -- I wasn't going to do USCA -- Gwen and I are driving down in her '33 with the other Brizio crazies... But NOW -- I may arrange / ask Sutton if he wants to drive my rig down to USCA --- and see if that works. I'll have to do some poking around now.

Actually the dates don't work out at all --- USCA is MARCH 28/29th.... I won't be in Austin until April 15th.

carbuff

02-11-2015, 09:13 AM

So..... What's your point??? LOL

Just send over that AmEx Black card number when you have a second... ;-)

Seriously though, I'm trying to keep myself realistic about how TOW is going to be used for the next year or two. Here in Central Texas, we don't have the number of big track events that other areas seem to. I have a monthly autocross I can attend, sometimes 2 if I go join the San Antonio group. I get GG twice a year in Fort Worth, again, an autocross, and then USCA assuming I make it.

I do have tracks close by, but will I get to attend more than 2 or 3 events a year at those? Last year I only did 2. If I find that I'm going to be able to do more on a more regular basis, then perhaps it will be time to step up. But given 'life' at the moment, I'm not sure there will be a lot of opportunity yet.

That said, I have some 'life' things in flux right now which could change the whole picture. :underchair: :headscratch:

carbuff

02-11-2015, 09:17 AM

April 15th and check out on April 19th Embassy Suites 300 Congress Ave. Austin Texas.

http://0f6090ac5ca4ec80129c-b94de9bb9c1274d52c3ad82ace8029fb.r91.cf2.rackcdn.c om/597da7c5f3d0240edcafcee616f80a07-2f1da57b287d4085492031c748d5a8ac.png

http://www.terryblacksbbq.com/

It's about a mile and a half from where you're staying.

Bryan -- I wasn't going to do USCA -- Gwen and I are driving down in her '33 with the other Brizio crazies... But NOW -- I may arrange / ask Sutton if he wants to drive my rig down to USCA --- and see if that works. I'll have to do some poking around now.

Actually the dates don't work out at all --- USCA is MARCH 28/29th.... I won't be in Austin until April 15th.

BZZT! Wrong answer... Just bring that rig on down anyway, that's what plane tickets are for if you need to be somewhere. Steve, Eric and I will take care of the rig for you. :)

GG is having their first event in Raleigh, NC the weekend you will be here. I was debating trying to get to it, since that's where I'm from. Not sure that will happen at this point though...

GregWeld

02-11-2015, 09:19 AM

You know I was just poking you. I totally agree -- even when guys can spend unlimited amounts of money on "stuff" -- what's the point.... other than "I could". We are just building street cars. GM can put dry sumps on their production cars because of the price they buy for... they've got guys like Stielow to package it - and the customer just pays for it. I think they're smart doing that because of the bad rap they'd get if people went out and tracked their cars and had issues... only takes a few and the rumor mill cranks up... so they're almost in a "must do" situation.

For me -- I'd just add in an Accusump for the track "starvation" / G forces / oil climbing the pan etc occasions.

Just send over that AmEx Black card number when you have a second... ;-)

Seriously though, I'm trying to keep myself realistic about how TOW is going to be used for the next year or two. Here in Central Texas, we don't have the number of big track events that other areas seem to. I have a monthly autocross I can attend, sometimes 2 if I go join the San Antonio group. I get GG twice a year in Fort Worth, again, an autocross, and then USCA assuming I make it.

I do have tracks close by, but will I get to attend more than 2 or 3 events a year at those? Last year I only did 2. If I find that I'm going to be able to do more on a more regular basis, then perhaps it will be time to step up. But given 'life' at the moment, I'm not sure there will be a lot of opportunity yet.

That said, I have some 'life' things in flux right now which could change the whole picture. :underchair: :headscratch:

carbuff

02-11-2015, 09:25 AM

You know I was just poking you. I totally agree -- even when guys can spend unlimited amounts of money on "stuff" -- what's the point.... other than "I could". We are just building street cars. GM can put dry sumps on their production cars because of the price they buy for... they've got guys like Stielow to package it - and the customer just pays for it. I think they're smart doing that because of the bad rap they'd get if people went out and tracked their cars and had issues... only takes a few and the rumor mill cranks up... so they're almost in a "must do" situation.

For me -- I'd just add in an Accusump for the track "starvation" / G forces / oil climbing the pan etc occasions.

Oh I know. And I could do it, but it would delay getting the car together, particularly because the system I would want (the Dailey setup) is 6-8 weeks out right now. And I really like the clean underhood area of TOW right now. I'm trying to keep with the original idea behind my theme and not do add-on stuff at this point. Although Eric would happily package it all up for me. ;)

The Accusump should do just fine for my needs. I've got one on order with Ron, and when it arrives I'm going to have it recoated to change the blue to black to 'hide' it better. I've got some re-wiring to do to integrate it in the car, but that's no big deal. I only spent 6 weeks wiring the car the first time, right? :superhack: :weld:

Panteracer

02-11-2015, 02:54 PM

I agree with the accusump idea... I lunched a
bunch of motors and finally put one on my car years
back.... it ran great for a year and a half then I got
the bright idea to shed weight off the front end and
took the oil cooler and accusump off the car and instant
spun bearing... smart guy I am

Most of the Norcal Shelby guys run them on their cars
although I never seemed to need one on the Pantera
It has an Aviad pan that seems to work... try that
with a Pontiac motor not a chance.. Steffs makes some
custom units and I had the guys contact that did the
original Aviad designs but never called him
I have had 4 different type of so called road race pans
on my Pontiacs and none of them really worked

You should have put a Pontiac back in it... then you live
in constant fear of losing oil pressure:).. but the Torque
on those babies is incredible

Bob

carbuff

02-11-2015, 03:45 PM

You should have put a Pontiac back in it... then you live in constant fear of losing oil pressure:).. but the Torque on those babies is incredible

Bob

I wouldn't mind the latter, but I already have enough worries on the former!

Panteracer

02-11-2015, 03:52 PM

carbuff

02-11-2015, 05:13 PM

I hear ya Bob. I'm shocked at the pricing on engine parts these days. It's been a while since I've built one, but everything seems so pricey now. Inflation I suppose...

carbuff

02-11-2015, 05:21 PM

The LS7 block arrived today as scheduled. I opened up the crate, and things mostly look ok. I'm not sure what the history of this thing is, but I've never seen a thrust bearing on the crankshaft so worn out. Hopefully there isn't any kind of major problem on the mains. Line honing them will be part of the machine work, so unless it's something really off, I should be fine.

The cylinders have some light scuff from piston skirts which should clean up with a simple hone. So that's a good thing.

Assuming crank arrives as scheduled tomorrow, the block and crank and other pieces go to TSP on Friday to start assembly. Camshaft is on the way for early next week, so fingers crossed, I might get the short block plus cam back by the end of the week or early the next. I can then start reassembly on everything out of the car until the heads arrive...

I don't think I've mentioned this, but part of my push on this schedule is that I'll lose a week around the start of March due to some travel. My mother had to have a knee replacement yesterday, so I'm going to spend some time with her when she heads home from rehab. My sister is taking care of her during the hospital stay, and I'm trying to work out being there when she comes home. Thankfully the surgery went well, but she's in pain and pretty loopy on pain meds right now. I'm just glad the procedure itself is over and she can start on the path to recovery!

Flash68

02-11-2015, 06:01 PM

I hear ya Bob. I'm shocked at the pricing on engine parts these days. It's been a while since I've built one, but everything seems so pricey now. Inflation I suppose...

Well gee you aren't building a 300 hp 350 sbc. :lol:

OLDFLM

02-12-2015, 08:20 AM

I hear ya.. I am so deep into my motor now it is
bombproof and I still wonder about pushing it real hard
I remember the simple days when I bought a junkyard
Pontiac motor for $400 or $455 depending on how many
cubes.. spun till you won and blow it up eventually then
go get another one.. those were the days.. less opitions
less money and to me no worries cause you knew what
was going to happen

Bob

LOL The summer after I graduated high school (1985) I went through 4 or 5 junkyard 455s racing my Firebird! I'd hurt it on Friday night, be at the yard Sat morning, looking for running Bonnevilles/Catalinas, swap my carb/intake/Crane "Fireball" cam/3-tube headers & Purple Hornies, and be back out Sat night! I still remember my Dad telling me not to rev it like the kids with the SBCs! :EmoteClueless:
Now I have a 4" stroke 440 so that I can!

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/OLDFLM/IMG-20130207-00207_zpsaa09c49a.jpg (http://s691.photobucket.com/user/OLDFLM/media/IMG-20130207-00207_zpsaa09c49a.jpg.html)

Panteracer

02-12-2015, 08:38 AM

Ty I hear you... I always told everyone
that the valves would float so I had a rev limiter

We also worked a lot faster and did not have to make
a million upgrades or make it pretty because running them
was more important.... kinda miss the old days
Loaded that car up many a times at midnight so I could
racing in the morning after working on it endlessly

Bob

carbuff

02-12-2015, 09:15 AM

Well gee you aren't building a 300 hp 350 sbc. :lol:

I'm not?! :knokwood:

I remember when I build the engine for Hunk 'o Metal, and I bought nice components for that thing. Don't remember spending nearly this level, but that was 14 years ago. D'oh!

OLDFLM

02-12-2015, 10:29 AM

WSSix

02-12-2015, 12:27 PM

This thread is making me think I should seriously consider an Accusump system when I plan my 383 build. I might take it on a road course one day. I'd rather not destroy my newly built engine since it's not a simple junk yard motor.

Glad you're making positive headway, Bryan. Good luck.

Panteracer

02-12-2015, 12:39 PM

Che70velle

02-12-2015, 03:51 PM

I was told many years back that my 69 Z/28 DZ motor
had a swinging pickup on the oil pump.. it never starved
for oil pressure although I did spin a bearing in it but I
think that was from changing the piston in the parking lot
at college after a keeper fell off my newly done heads
I am sure metal got in the engine from the parking lot hone

But I have never heard again about a swinging pickup.. does
anyone know if they actually had them and why not now??

Bob

Nope, the swinging pickup is a myth. The 302 oil pans did have a lot of baffling to contain the oil at the pickup more consistently.
I feel that with a properly designed pan sump, followed by proper baffling, there's really no need to have the pickup move in the pan.

GregWeld

02-12-2015, 04:17 PM

The lotus can pull 2g's and with the stock pan that's a disaster. I installed a moroso road race pan and it's nicely baffled. I still take comfort knowing the accusump is there if and or when the pressure falls.

intocarss

02-14-2015, 07:02 PM

Nope, the swinging pickup is a myth. The 302 oil pans did have a lot of baffling to contain the oil at the pickup more consistently.
I feel that with a properly designed pan sump, followed by proper baffling, there's really no need to have the pickup move in the pan.

May of been a myth that the 302's had a swinging oil pump p/u. But they do or did make them

Che70velle

02-14-2015, 09:09 PM

May of been a myth that the 302's had a swinging oil pump p/u. But they do or did make them

Yes sir, I should have been more specific. Swinging oil pump pickups are not a myth, they do exist, created primarily, but not specifically for some Mopar applications. I was referring to the DZ 302 Chevy engine. I've heard through the years many talk about this engine using a swinging pickup from the factory, and it's simply not true.
Someone recently designed a swinging pickup for the V-10 Viper engine, but I've not heard if it worked better than those designed decades ago for early hemi engines and 440's, which had a reputation of sticking in the wrong position. These were sought after for drag racing, and would swing front to back, for accel/decel oil control. Perhaps other types were tried in road race style engine applications? Not sure about that...

Panteracer

02-15-2015, 08:50 PM

Thanks Scott for clearing up the Dz info
Back when I was 17 someone said something
and I figured it was correct. Nowadays I am questioning
some of those statements

Bob

intocarss

02-16-2015, 10:59 AM

Yes sir, I should have been more specific. Swinging oil pump pickups are not a myth, they do exist, created primarily, but not specifically for some Mopar applications. I was referring to the DZ 302 Chevy engine. I've heard through the years many talk about this engine using a swinging pickup from the factory, and it's simply not true.
Someone recently designed a swinging pickup for the V-10 Viper engine, but I've not heard if it worked better than those designed decades ago for early hemi engines and 440's, which had a reputation of sticking in the wrong position. These were sought after for drag racing, and would swing front to back, for accel/decel oil control. Perhaps other types were tried in road race style engine applications? Not sure about that... Exactly, The ones I've seen are for Mopars, I have heard of some that were made for road racing apps but have never seen any.

carbuff

02-17-2015, 10:09 AM

More updated with positive progress...

I mentioned the LS7 block arrived last week. Things look ok with it after my quick check, so I was waiting for the crank to arrive, which was supposed to happen Thursday. Well, UPS decided that it needed to make an extra detour, so after tracking showed it here Wednesday night, it went back to Dallas on Thursday, and finally arrived to me on Friday. That delayed my ability to get everything to TSP until Monday.

So yesterday I hauled it all up to those guys. I was surprised how easily the block fit in the trunk of my C63. :lostmarbles: They had to order a set of pistons for it which should arrive today, and then they will start the balance work and machine work for reassembly. They gave me a 2-week timeline, but I'm hoping for a bit sooner.

I received notice that the cam shipped yesterday also, so I'll have it tomorrow and take it to them to stab and degree while they are doing the shortblock. I'd like them to install the oil pump, so the other pieces need to be in place first. I'm not sure if they will get the heads of if I'll just do those myself. It will depending on the timing of it all...

Multiple pieces are in transit at this point. Lifters and clutch should arrive this week, AGR power steering pump arrived last week, Accusump is on the way, and a big order with Summit is getting placed today for fittings, fluids, and various other parts and pieces...

My timeline isn't coming together as nicely as I would have hoped, only because I'm going to have to travel to help out my mother when she finishes up her rehab for her surgery. That looks like it will happen in 2 weeks. So I will keep pushing, but the FW GG event may be in danger at this point. If that happens, it would free me up to attend SXSW, a huge music event here in Austin, so that wouldn't be the end of the world.

spode

02-17-2015, 12:52 PM

Sounds like it coming together. It may seem like forever but you are moving along nicely. What pistons did you end up getting.

Jeff

carbuff

02-17-2015, 12:57 PM

Thanx. Yep, feels like forever, but in reality just a few weeks.

I'm going with the Wiseco K463's. Not sure if we will have to bore/home 0.005" or not yet. Likely will. I'm targeting 12:1 SCR and about 8.8:1 DCR with this setup. Once I know the deck height, I'll target the chamber size to match via milling.

carbuff

02-24-2015, 10:12 AM

Amazing how fast a week goes by... Current status:

- Short block is in the assembly phase at TSP. I haven't spoken to them today, but I expect it to be done around Thursday, maybe Friday. I dropped off the cam for them to install and degree last Friday.

- Heads are being cut and assembled this week. They will be ready Friday or Monday. I'm going to pick them up along with the intake manifold on Tuesday.

- Clutch should hopefully be here on Monday. The weather in Dallas yesterday and today is slowing down both the clutch and the heads.

- My rockers with the Harland Sharp trunion upgrade arrived yesterday, so I'm ready for the top end assembly. I will have to determine the pushrod length and diameter once I have everything together.

- I found a set of flow matched 42# injectors that I picked up for a good deal, so I'll replace my FAST injectors with those for a little extra headroom.

Per my other thread on plumbing my Accusump, I have a lot of pieces in flight related to that right now. The oil filter mount arrived yesterday and is in Eric's hands to determine the best mounting location. A large order of Russell and Fragola fittings and adapters are on the way as well. So we should be able to knock some of that out before the engine is ready to go in.

If everything continues to go as it has been, and we don't hit any big snags during re-assembly, I feel a lot better about getting it together for my March events. Next week will be the big thrash, then I'll have at least a week to break it in and tune. Woo hoo! :thumbsup:

SSLance

02-24-2015, 10:31 AM

Nice work!! Keep up the good progress...

carbuff

02-24-2015, 10:42 AM

Thanx Lance!

Just after I posted, Eric sent me a few pictures of work he did this morning. He just received the mount 2 hours ago. :)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/009_zps526b1c09.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/009_zps526b1c09.jpg.html)

We also decided to modify the lower radiator hose connector, as the hose was always pinched right at the frame rail when it came straight out. This will make life easier to install/remove the hose:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/012_zpsdac88ed7.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/012_zpsdac88ed7.jpg.html)

carbuff

03-06-2015, 08:47 PM

Time for an update now that I'm back from my trip...

Things are not going as smoothly as I had hoped, and this is going to translate into a thrash next week as I try to get ready for my GG road trip. On the good front, I was able to pick up my ported heads and intake this week. I also received my new clutch from UPS on Tuesday. Now all I need is that short block and I'll be good to go.

Well, about that... Part delays and some inefficiencies in inventory management have led to delays getting the engine together. I'm really frustrated by this, but it's out of my control. I've done everything I can short of building the engine myself to try and keep it on track. But the latest issue is out of even the builder's hands...

I received a phone call this afternoon letting me know that apparently the previous engine builder (Golen Engine Service) installed my Champ LS1000 pan using their original Milodon oil pickup tube that was on the engine from their original build. The pan was one of a few things I had them change before shipping the engine to me (another being the cam, and also the intake). I ordered the pan and pickup tube from Prodigy and had it drop shipped to Golen. I have no earthly idea why they would do this, but TSP tells me that the existing pickup tube was bent to try and make it 'work'. And I wonder why I might have ever had any oiling issues???

So I called Champ about getting a new pickup tube on the way. Unfortunately I missed their shipping cutoff, so it will go out Monday and get to TSP on Tuesday. So hopefully I'll be able to pick it up Tuesday afternoon. The one thing I'll have left to get at this point is a set of pushrods. TSP will measure them for me, and I'll place an order with Manton to get the custom length units I need for the motor. I'll drop those in once they arrive, hopefully after the engine is in the car again.

While I was gone, Eric was able to get my Accusump cylinder powder coated. I assembled that today, and it turned out nice. I pressurized it to about 20#, and it's sitting with that right now to ensure no leaks. After a couple of hours, it was still right where it should have been. We need to make some brackets to mount it, but we want the engine in place to ensure we locate it correctly. It's a tight squeeze between the pulleys and the radiator.

Oh, and since I have 4 events targeted for the next 2 months, I went ahead and picked up a new set of Falken's to have ready for install. I'll need them either after GG, or after USCA weekend I imagine. So I'm armed and ready. :)

Here are a few pics for your viewing pleasure. The heads are the TFS GenX LS3 castings ported by Frankenstein Racing Heads. I spent 2 hours with Chris Frank the owner on Wednesday. He's got a great shop and definitely educated me on many things head and engine related. Some of the high dollar parts he had in the shop were pretty impressive as well...

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150305_100940_zpstcsohcq1.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150305_100940_zpstcsohcq1.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150305_101005_zpsv9c94vlt.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150305_101005_zpsv9c94vlt.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150306_161406_zps0fzp547z.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150306_161406_zps0fzp547z.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150306_161445_zpsogzdbxfn.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150306_161445_zpsogzdbxfn.jpg.html)

Panteracer

03-06-2015, 09:03 PM

What size falkins? And where did you get them
Thinking of switching

Thanks
Sorry to hear about all the delays

Bob

Flash68

03-06-2015, 09:25 PM

Lot of moving parts there Bryan.... sounds like you're doing about as well as one could.

Parts look sharp!

275 / 315 Falkens I'd guess?

carbuff

03-07-2015, 08:07 AM

Yes, a lot of moving parts. That will translate into several late nights next week. :)

The Falkens are the Azenis RT-615K. Sizes are what Flash said: 275/35/18 and 315/30/18. I bought them off of eBay from Discount Tire Direct, but it turns out they have a website at which the prices are a little bit cheaper...

Discount Tire Direct (http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/home.do)

Direct Link to the Falkens (http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/tires/falken/product/byName.do?tmn=Azenis+RT-615K&typ=Passenger%2FPerformance)

Panteracer

03-07-2015, 10:45 AM

Thanks for the tire info
Good luck on getting it up a running

Bob

glassman

03-07-2015, 05:02 PM

Hey Bryan and Bob, i just got those same Falkens and sizes mounted onto my Forgelines from Dublin Big-O for $1482, tires and mounting (although they may have done the mounting for free as i do a fair amount of business with them). Ithought the price was very fair for just the tires...

chichirone

03-07-2015, 06:39 PM

Looks like you are making progress Bryan. Tough to be patient. We are struggling with the same on KLRBRDs suspension/frame rail redo. Parts delays and the weather have us anxious as well.

Since the Rivals are not available we are considering the 315 Falkens or PS2s. Appreciate you sharing the link. Good stuff. Hope to see you're GG's in a couple weeks or at the USCA event at TMS at the end of the month.

Let's get a pic of the Birds together this time. :knock:

carbuff

03-11-2015, 08:20 PM

Some positive progress!

I picked up the engine at the end of the day from TSP yesterday. The build there took longer than I had hoped, but at least it's back in my hands now. Here she was when I picked it up and dropped it off at Eric's:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_105133_zps6g2o5lvo.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_105133_zps6g2o5lvo.jpg.html)

First order of business this morning was to drill and tap the steam vent ports for my setup I put together on the original motor. Unfortunately I forgot to do this to the heads in my rush to get them to TSP, so Eric and I were discussing options for either removing the heads or doing it on the motor. We did them on the motor the first time, so we decided to try that again.

I taped up the water pump holes and the temp probe holes on each head, then using an air hose I blew air into one port while Eric drilled/tapped the other. This worked great, we could see the shavings coming out instead of falling in. It was also surprising how much more flow there was after doing this. While the point of these holes isn't to flow water regularly, I think that opening them up a little will help prevent any air bubble problems. Here's a pic of the setup once done:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_115637_zpsajmnlksb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_115637_zpsajmnlksb.jpg.html)

I expected the pushrods and rockers to be installed by TSP, but they weren't. So I did that also. They had confirmed the lengths, but I double checked that they were what I wanted. Everything came out good on that front:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_130945_zpsupgn51v6.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_130945_zpsupgn51v6.jpg.html)

Next I installed the intake. I was surprised at how well I was able to get the ports to match up after torquing everything, I couldn't get a picture of those, but here's one of the intake in place:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_133617_zpstxlezsvb.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_133617_zpstxlezsvb.jpg.html)

Then the clutch. I'm using a setup from Monster in which they build a flywheel to adapt the new C7 LT1 twin disc cluthc for LS use. It's a pricey assembly, but it should hold the power I'm making without any trouble. I expect a bit better pedal feel also.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_152729_zpsckcfwf9w.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_152729_zpsckcfwf9w.jpg.html)

And bellhousing, after giving it a bath:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_155249_zpsoszqfp1u.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150311_155249_zpsoszqfp1u.jpg.html)

Last step for the day was to reassemble the Wegner front drive setup. PS pump, AC brackets and water pump installed. I'll put the alternator and AC compressor on once it's back in the car, as I need access to the bolts on the heads to attach the chains for the hoist. I forgot to take a final picture for the day.

I was hoping to have a little more done today, but that's where I am. Tomorrow morning Eric and I are going to get the motor in so that I can continue work on the accessories, new oil lines, and all of the wiring that needs to be done. If I'm lucky, we can stab the T56 also, but I need to rebuild the slave cylinder first. It looks like one of the o-rings is leaking, so we have a kit to replace those.

So while not coming along at quite the same pace as that other 48-hour build, I hope to have this one running within 48 hours or so myself. :)

glassman

03-11-2015, 08:33 PM

chichirone

03-11-2015, 08:40 PM

C'mon man! The 48hr Bird will be awesome if you can pull it all together. Hope you get it done man. We are rooting for you. Need to get that pic of our TAs together next weekend.

Panteracer

03-11-2015, 08:42 PM

Ben running a centerforce in the Pantera
for over 10 years. Same clutch with about 600 hp
Have one in the bird with no issues either. Over 700hp
and 640 lbs of torque. Tires are the thing that lets go

Just saying no need for fancy clutches

Bob

carbuff

03-11-2015, 09:01 PM

Well you know the car and you will know it even more, making it much quicker for reassembly (as if you didn't already know this). But great seeing it come together. Good luck with reassembly....Looks like i'll be purchasing the monster phase II as my pplate fried at da track last weekend....:G-Dub:

Oh dang, sorry to hear that! It seems like it's always something, doesn't it?

C'mon man! The 48 the Bird will be awesome if you can pull it all together. Hope you get it done man. We are rooting for you. Need to get that pic of our TAs together next weekend.

Agreed on the picture! I'm really pushing to make it, but looking at the extended weather forecast, I sure hope things improve!

Ben running a centerforce in the Pantera
for over 10 years. Same clutch with about 600 hp
Have one in the bird with no issues either. Over 700hp
and 640 lbs of torque. Tires are the thing that lets go

Just saying no need for fancy clutches

Bob

Agreed that it's not necessary. But since I had it all apart, I decided that now was the right time to do it if I was going to. Steve (Gerno) seems to like his, and I like the idea of getting a replacement from a GM dealer in the future if I need it. Yep, it was a little splurge. Like a lot that went into my final package with this engine... ;)

waynieZ

03-11-2015, 09:11 PM

The motor looks great! Nice work.

WSSix

03-12-2015, 08:22 AM

glad to see it coming together for you, Bryan!

GregWeld

03-12-2015, 08:36 AM

Looks like i'll be purchasing the monster phase II as my pplate fried at da track last weekend....:G-Dub:

When on the track - you DO NOT want to use the engine compression (thus downshifting and using the clutch) for slowing the car.... As Bob Bondurant explained to me one time - Motors are to make the car go forward - Clutches are used to change gears - and BRAKES are used to slow the car down.

Thus the "heel and toe" rev matching technique used to raise engine RPM's to match the required gear change... with all that done before entering the corner - all the while using the BRAKES as needed to make said corner.

Not saying you did or didn't do this - just saying that clutches will take MAJOR abuse at racing speeds on a track when using them for "compression" gear changes.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Glad you got the motor back and are moving forward Bryan!!!

glassman

03-12-2015, 07:16 PM

When on the track - you DO NOT want to use the engine compression (thus downshifting and using the clutch) for slowing the car.... As Bob Bondurant explained to me one time - Motors are to make the car go forward - Clutches are used to change gears - and BRAKES are used to slow the car down.

Thus the "heel and toe" rev matching technique used to raise engine RPM's to match the required gear change... with all that done before entering the corner - all the while using the BRAKES as needed to make said corner.

Not saying you did or didn't do this - just saying that clutches will take MAJOR abuse at racing speeds on a track when using them for "compression" gear changes.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Glad you got the motor back and are moving forward Bryan!!!

From what i've learned about my set up and LS's in general, some of these have this issue i have, something overheated cause everything came back bout turn 4 (it only happend in turn one, something to do with the long straight, 6500rpm, onto the throwout bearing which was/is apparently the problem). But yeah, i remember the instructor at the Shelby event said that about engine braking, USE your brakes (knowing your brake zone is what i'm learning, and it aint easy)

Like you said, "consumable parts".....but man its fun!!!!!

Hope you geter done this weeekend just to take a load off....

carbuff

03-12-2015, 08:13 PM

Phew, what a long day... I was so busy that I only remembered to stop and take pictures once...

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150312_133709_zpsc7edmhue.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150312_133709_zpsc7edmhue.jpg.html)

At this point, the engine is in the car and everything is attached / assembled. I need 1 piece of fuel hose for my PCV catch can, a new lower radiator hose, and an AN-fitting for the new PS pump to finish all of the required plumbing to fire the car. That stupid fitting cost me $35 to overnight it from Summit. The price of convenience I suppose...

Tomorrow morning, Eric is going to help me re-stab the transmission, and I will get the rest of the exhaust installed. Barring any problems, we should fire it up for the first time tomorrow afternoon. For the moment, I have the oil thermostat blocked off using the stock block off plate, as there's no point is running the breakin oil through the cooler and new external filter. I've made 2 of the required 4 lines to route the Accusump oil plumbing. I can't finish the last 2 until I reinstall the thermostat.

In addition to the overnighted fitting, I also have some blocks coming tomorrow which will allow us to mount the Accusump cylinder itself. We have a little work to do on this, but I expect we'll get it done before I leave next week for Fort Worth.

A few other things we have to do: bleed the clutch and brakes, clearance one of the brackets on the rear suspension to the Ridetech shock, finish the wiring to the Accusump pressure switch, and update the Holley tune.

Hopefully tomorrow's update will include lots of :D and :cheers:

SSLance

03-12-2015, 08:56 PM

:hapdance:

Solid LT1

03-12-2015, 11:41 PM

Looks good! I'm wondering about your cam specs.....how much lift because it looks like you have the stock rocker covers make sure everything has clearance especially the rocker to oil baffles!

carbuff

03-13-2015, 07:00 AM

Looks good! I'm wondering about your cam specs.....how much lift because it looks like you have the stock rocker covers make sure everything has clearance especially the rocker to oil baffles!

The cam isn't too aggressive, with max lift of 0.629" at the valve (1.7:1 rockers). My previous cam had 0.604" lift. I think both of these are pretty normal for aftermarket cams on the LS engines, but I'll be listening for any sound that doesn't sound right for sure. :)

carbuff

03-13-2015, 08:39 PM

Well, today did not turn out exactly as planned. We were thwarted by 0.1", literally...

It all started well enough. Eric and I installed the transmission which went smoothly. As these things tend to do, it all took a bit longer than I expected, but we were trying to be thorough and keep everything clean like it originally was. After the transmission was in, we stuck the driveshaft and reassembled the exhaust.

Next up was dropping the car to the ground and finishing up the plumbing which remained. PS hoses, radiator hose, PCV hose. Then pour in some fluids and look for leaks. So far, so good.

Finally, time to reconnect the battery. I do so, get in and flip the switch, and voila! Fuel pressure... I needed to confirm the program in the Holley HP, which we did, then reconnected the O2 sensor. Sensor readings looked ok, gauges were ok, and it was time to see if she would fire.

So I pushed in the clutch, turned the switch, and the engine started to spin. I let off the switch pretty quickly, and I had a strange kick back through the clutch pedal. Hmm, never had that happen before. I was about to hit it again, but Eric talked me into checking to make sure all was ok. I'm glad we did...

I'm using the hydraulics from my original American Powertrain kit, which consists of the Hydramax slave cylinder. The bearing moves forward and back on a shaft, and it's kept in the correct position by a ~2" long stud. It needed to be about 0.1" shorter.

When I measured for the throwout bearing clearance with the new LT1 clutch, I was in the right clearance range of 0.100" - 0.200". But it seems that there is a ring on the outside of the fingers that is further away from the flywheel than just the pressure plate fingers. The stud on the clutch slave was at the same height as the throwout bearing face, but 2" from the input shaft centerline. Long story short, the ring on the clutch caught the stud and snapped it...

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150313_174431_zpsuwy03gq8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150313_174431_zpsuwy03gq8.jpg.html)

After some cursing and moments of despair, Eric and I hopped on the computer and started searching for solutions. A local Chevy dealer had an F-Body slave in stock, but we needed a way to connect up my hydraulic lines. Eric knew the parts we needed, but at 4:00 on a Friday, how am I going to get them? Turns out a call to Speedway and a $65 Saturday Delivery shipping charge later, and I'll have the fittings tomorrow morning. So we have the pieces on the way to rectify this.

After getting past that panic, we started looking closer at the broken stud. Eric determined it was just a piece of mild steel that we could probably remove and replace. He was able to extract the snapped off piece, and we decided that we could use a bolt to replace it. So I picked up a 4" long Grade 8 5/16" bolt which we then cut to the correct (shorter!) length to give us 1/4" of clearance while still providing plenty of clearance to the clutch ring.

We put it back together and measured everything twice to be sure we will have the correct clearance. We then decided to call it a night. While we hated not to get her started today, we would hate it more if we rushed to put it back together and made a mistake. We'll start fresh tomorrow...

We did find one other problem. My new PS pump reservoir is cracked and leaking. I'm pretty pissed about this actually. I ordered a new pump from AGR to match my rack and pinion I purchased from them last year. It took a couple of weeks for them to build it and send it. The thing looks like it was all beat up. I should have complained, but I've been dealing with other things of higher priority. Sure enough, the damned thing leaks. Thankfully we still have my other pump on-hand, so we are going to swap the reservoir from it to this pump to take care of it tomorrow. That means draining the fluid and making another mess though (I'm a little tired of smelly fluids!).

So... Hopefully tomorrow we'll have better luck and get everything fired up. Onward and upward!

GregWeld

03-14-2015, 07:03 AM

Good post Bryan! Wow.... hate to say it but sometimes that's just hot rodding. Makes me think back to the days of 4 speeds and Z bars and mechanical throw out bearings... it was SOOOOOOO simple! Seems to me BRAKES have become simple and clutches have become complicated. I used to hate drum brakes with all those damn springs and leaking cylinders... and the filth of it all....

Time for some beer and BBQ!

waynieZ

03-14-2015, 08:16 AM

Sorry to hear about the problems, but glad you found a quick way to get the parts you need to fix it. I hope its a good day for you today.
The motor looks great in there!

carbuff

03-14-2015, 09:09 PM

Quoting from the movie classic "Frankenstein":

It's alive!

It was another long day in Eric's shop today. It's amazing how we pulled the transmission out in about 45 minutes last night yet it took us about 5 hours to put it back in today. That's what happens when you are meticulous and want it done right though!

I mentioned yesterday that we had a leak in the PS pump reservoir. So first thing I switched the reservoir from my old pump to the new pump. I put everything back together and filled up the system, then started working on the transmission. A few minutes later, Eric noticed we had a drip under the car. Danged if the assembly wasn't leaking again! GRRR!

So we took it back off the car, disassembled it again, and started checking the reservoir for leaks. While it looked a bit questionable around the edge seam, it certainly didn't look like it should be leaking the way it was. We decided that it must be the o-ring between the pump and the reservoir. So Eric sealed the edge with some black RTV and we replaced the o-ring again, then reassembled and reinstalled. That also meant that the AN fitting I overnighted from Summit on Thursday was no longer needed. Sigh...

We next moved back to the throwout bearing / slave cylinder. I spent last night trying to decide whether to use the new GM unit I purchased or to stick with the Hydramax which I already had with our fix. Eric and I discussed it for a while, and we decided to stick with our fix. We have no reason to doubt it will work just fine, and it saaved us some time of modifying the new GM slave hydraulic fittings.

One concern that I'd had with the Hydramax yesterday was that it felt really soft. We thought we had done a good job of bleeding the unit by pushing fluid up from the bottom. We determined that maybe we hadn't really gotten all of the air out. So before installing everything, we turned the transmission on its side to get the AN fittings pointing upwards and bled the unit with a MitiVac. We felt like we were able to get it filled pretty well.

So then back under the car we went. We lifted the unit up, and it just slid right in flush to the bellhousing. I don't think either of us have had one go in so smoothly. Finally a break :) Then we started the fun process of installing my crossmember / torque arm mount. This is one hefty unit that combines the JRS torque arm crossmember with Eric's added transmission mount. The dang thing weighs about 25 pounds and takes 20 bolts to completely install it (I'm not kidding). Alone it takes 30 minutes or so to get in.

Wiring connectors attached, drive shaft installed, Redline fluid pumped into the T56 again (aside, I'm sick and tired of wearing all of the smelly fluids this car takes!), and exhaust reinstalled. At this point we pumped fluid back up through the clutch slave cylinder into the master cylinder and reservoir. After we got it full, I hopped in the car and Eric did a normal bleed procedure. We hoped that between the 2 we got all the air out. Based on where we started and where we ended, it felt a lot better.

Another aside. I want to give props to Steve, the owner at Monster Clutch. I emailed him about 9:00 tonight to ask a question about my slave travel, and he replied in about 5 minutes. He's been really helpful to be through this process of selection and installation.

So now we have everything bolted back together, fluids all reinstalled, it's time to try and fire her up again. I get in and turn the switch. Spin, spin, spin. No fire, but at least things sound ok. It took a few more seconds of spinning before I got any oil pressure, but that's the joy of starting an LS for the first time. Finally, I touched the gas pedal and got a short fire for about 1 second. Pressure jumped which was good, but she died quickly. Time to jump into the tune.

I added a lot of fuel during starting, as we weren't smelling anything at all. The next time I tried, she lit right up. Woo hoo!!! :hapdance: We let her run for a couple of minutes, varied the speed up and down between 1500 and 2000 rpm while watching the Holley gauge screen to make sure things looked ok. Everything looks good, up until it starts to get a little hot. That's my fault. Apparently I have screwed up something in my wiring when I installed a relay for my Accusump, so the Holley cannot control the fans correctly at the moment. One is trying to run all the time, and the other not at all. So it got up to running temp, then as it climbed I shut it down around 215.

We lifted the car up, and everything looks good, except we left the radiator cap off while running and burped some DexCool out (another nasty fluid). We cleaned that up but didn't find any other leaks or problems. So we dropped her back down and started her up again. It was harder to start this time, but she's running. Same as before, I ran her until the temps got high and shut her down. No leaks.

We did this a third time, but the engine was pretty hot already when I tried to start it. I say tried, because it really didn't want to start. I definitely have some tuning work to do, but I'm surprised it's proving so much harder since I didn't change anything in the tune related to this.

By now it was about 7:30, and we were beat, so we called it a night. Tomorrow I'm going to try and mostly take a break, but I do want to get a few little things done which I need to do... I'll do one more heat cycle, then change the oil and filter as speced by TSP. I need to fix my electrical problems if I can (at least diagnose it, as I may have to order some relay socket pins), and work on my tune some more. If I get those all done then I'll drop the hood on and take her out for the first drive. I'm hopeful I can do that as I need to drive it as much as I can on Monday to break in the engine and clutch. Tuesday and part of Wednesday it's going to rain here, so that would be a good time to do the Accusump install and finish up things like charging the AC and bleeding the brakes. I'm still planning to hit the road Thursday morning if at all possible to get to Fort Worth for GG next weekend. The one thing I'm not sure I'll have time to do is to get a tune done before that trip. I may just have to rely on setting the correct target AFR and let the Holley do its thing. (I'll set a conservative ignition map to be safe)

Just a couple of pictures for today. Here is our fixed stud for the clutch slave:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_131628_zps5nkh3wtc.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_131628_zps5nkh3wtc.jpg.html)

And a shot before buttoning it all back up (note the loose belt):

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_131759_zpsmrjn4tu0.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_131759_zpsmrjn4tu0.jpg.html)

One more thing I forgot that I did today was to add some rack spacers to my rack and pinion to hopefully solve my rubbing problem. I already had 2 in there, so I added a third and have about 1/2" of clearance now:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_172252_zpsedizqbbl.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150314_172252_zpsedizqbbl.jpg.html)

Time for some sleep!

Che70velle

03-15-2015, 11:54 AM

Bryan, great to hear. I can sense the excitement in your writing. Hope you get some drive time before the GG event. Keep us posted.

waynieZ

03-15-2015, 03:48 PM

Nice progress, glad it went well for you. That fix on the slave cylinder came out great.

GregWeld

03-15-2015, 04:36 PM

On your start programming -- look for a "start RPMS" -- Might be called something different in the Holley program... Sometimes they can be set too high.

carbuff

03-15-2015, 09:05 PM

Short update tonight, I'm beat... I planned to spend 2, maybe 3 hours working today, and stopped at 9.

Things I did today:

Adjusted the tune, adding fuel during start and reducing the timing advance. Starts much better now.
After above starting and heat cycling, changed the oil to the second round of break-in.
Corrected a wiring problem on my Accusump enable control (not fun to tear into my harness when my wiring was so nicely run the first time)
During the re-wire, found a blown fuse on my fan circuit, explaining why only 1 fan was running
Reassembled the console
Installed the hood (thanx Gerno!)
Checked and topped off all the fluids.
Charged the low battery

That doesn't seem like enough, but oh well. The wiring took a couple of hours alone. I was all set to drive her home tonight from Eric's, but unfortunately she's overheating. I thought before that was due to the one fan being dead and the other having the radiator air flow blocked, but that's not the case. Steve suggested I may have trapped air which is likely the case, so I'll pull the upper hose tomorrow and fill through there. Hopefully that's all it is.

I also found that the Holley was pulling timing because my Air Temp sensor wasn't connected, which was causing it to idle rough. I disabled that for now, and my idle is much better.

The clutch feels good as I backed out of the shop and ran through the parking lot a bit before she got hot. I'm happy with our fix and decision to stick with the Hydramax.

Tomorrow, diagnose and fix the engine temp problem and go for a drive. Then drive some more, and some more, and then some more. :) I also need to make some phone calls to arrange tuning and b!tch to AGR about their pump reservoir...

Hopefully tomorrow will be the driving day!

Ron in SoCal

03-15-2015, 09:39 PM

B - I know you can easily pull 'em, but be careful on a tight AutoX with that many spacers due to reduced steering angle. I'm pretty sure first and second gens use the same length rack, but I could be wrong. I had to go to zero and use my sway bar as a steering stop (yeah I did that). You have a diff sway bar, so that 'approach' won't work in your case. Hope this helps and congrats on the progress.

carbuff

03-16-2015, 08:31 AM

Ron,

Previously, my lower control arms have been acting as my steering limiters, and I have a rub mark on each wheel to show for it. Unfortunately the LCA's are wider than they probably need to be in this critical clearance area which is why I'm trying to limit the travel at the rack. I'll definitely be paying attention to any differences though, and I'll remove them if I need to. I already had 2 on each side and was rubbing, so I didn't add a lot more limitation.

I wish I had more clearance here, as I would consider a step up in front tire/wheel size. Those 275's look so small. ;) I'm sure I could fit a 285 or 295 on my wheel and still be ok, but there isn't one available in the Falken line.

carbuff

03-16-2015, 08:27 PM

!@#%!@^&#%# mother *&^!@*#&^@! AGR power steering pump!!!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_171703_zpsxrxh9wbx.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_171703_zpsxrxh9wbx.jpg.html)

:bigun2:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_181847_zpssoeta2dz.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_181847_zpssoeta2dz.jpg.html)

Ok, deep breath and rewind.

Today was actually a pretty good day for the most part. I got to the shop this morning and the first thing I did was open the radiator. It had dropped about 6", so some air had bubbled its way out. That's good, hopefully my hot condition last night was just a big bubble. I pulled the upper hose and filled it up until it wouldn't take any more, then topped off the radiator. Started her up and let her run. Temp sat right between 200 and 205 as I expected. Well, almost as I expected, as the fans never shut off, but it never got hotter either. More on that later.

I tweaked on the tune a little more, experimenting with the timing and fuel at idle. I'm no expert here, and this is where I need a real tuner to get his hands on the car. But right now she's idling around 800 rpm with a nice lope and no stumble off idle, so I'm happy enough with that. I also don't have the overly rich smell that I've always had with the car before now. I attribute that to the new O2 sensor.

After checking her over one more time, I took off for my first drive. About 5 miles, just to get a feel for her. Just so happened that Steve stopped by during lunch, so I came back and picked him up for another short drive. Things are feeling good: clutch feels great (really happy with this change), throttle is responsive, traction is likely to be a problem. ;) All's good.

After lunch, I went for a longer drive. I wanted to see if the coolant temp would drop with some air moving through the radiator. I also wanted to work on the tune some more. I put about 40 miles on her, and the fans never shut off. I did, however, do some tuning on the knock sensor and timing. I was able to make it ping, then dial that out by enabling the sensor and setting the sensitivity. Again, good enough for now, will do more on a dyno.

I've decided the temps aren't coming down because I don't have the oil cooler hooked up. My oil temps have always been too low, but I questioned if it was the gauge or the actual temps. Looks like it was the actual temps. Without the cooler, I'm seeing the oil temp between 200 and 220 as I would expect. I realized the reason the fans/coolant temp aren't coming down as far as I expect is because the oil is keeping the engine warmer now. So once I reinstall the cooler, that will help. I also question whether my Mocal thermostat is ever closing. I somehow doubt it now...

I came back to Eric's to take a break and check all my fluids. When I popped the hood, I noticed that my 6 rib belt now only has 4 ribs! When we started looking, we see that the snap-ring that holds the front bearing of the PS pump in place is just hanging there, and the pulley is about 1/8" too far forward. I run out to get a new belt and Eric took the pump off. When I got back, he said the pulley basically fell off when he removed the belt. I'm damned lucky that didn't happen while I was driving!

We looked hard at the AGR pump, trying to decide what to do, and we finally decided the best option was to just scrap it. The bearing won't seat down in far enough to install the snap ring, we're not sure why because the measurements say that it should. It appears that whomever assembled it thought it was ok too, but the ring must not have been seated. AGR sent me a beat up reservoir that leaked and a pump that could have sent a pulley through my hood if I had continued driving as I had planned today. Consider me pissed...

As I went to reinstall the belt, I saw the idler pulled was also destroyed as shown above. I didn't realize that pulley was just plastic. So a second trip to O'Reilly netted me the pulley which I installed on the idler arm. It's all back together now.

After we took care of that, I started on the mounts for my Accusump. Here is the monstrous and overkill clamp I bought to mount it to my sway bar tube:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_185612_zpstarn78t6.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_185612_zpstarn78t6.jpg.html)

And the clamp attached to the tube:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_185635_zpsbboodabk.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150316_185635_zpsbboodabk.jpg.html)

It's going to be a tighter fit in there than I realized, but it does look like it's going to fit. I may replace these clamps with the smaller version down the road, but for now, they will work. I'm probably adding 30 pounds of weight ahead of the front axle centerline, which I am not thrilled about, but it's just where it will best fit.

I'll finish that up tomorrow while Eric does a few other things. We should wrap everything up tomorrow night if we don't hit anymore snags...

glassman

03-16-2015, 09:00 PM

waynieZ

03-16-2015, 09:23 PM

Glad to hear you caught the belt and pump before it did any major damage.

carbuff

03-16-2015, 09:47 PM

Whats the solution for the AGR pump? Different brand? same dims?

Watchin you go thru all this bs (and i've been watching your build for what 3+years now?) and it makes me feel better, cause i though i was the only one where sometimes it feels like nothing can go right. But when you think about the thousands of parts on our rides, it only takes ONE for something to go awrie!!!!!! Then the odds dont seem like too much....

Good luck bud!!! FRom sunny ca
We reinstalled the original pump that came with the Wegner front drive kit. It supposedly is not optimal for the AGR rack which I run, but it works, if just a little noisy.

Glad I can help you out there. :) I think most of us have a thrashing like this at least once. I just over documented mine this time.

:-)

Btw, nice job at the weather. It's supposed to rain the next few days and possibly the weekend! Hoping not...

carbuff

03-16-2015, 09:49 PM

Glad to hear you caught the belt and pump before it did any major damage.

Me too! It slapped the hoses and wrapped around a few things, but could have much worse! Just the time and aggravation...

carbuff

03-17-2015, 10:09 PM

TOW is home and parked in my garage for the first time in 2 months... Accusump is installed and appears to be working (charges, and pre-lubes). I gave up on making the wiring look nice for this week, but everything is functional at least.

Eric did some work to clearance the driver's side shock by modifying the Watt's link mount on the axle. It had been rubbing, which is not good. May look into replacing the shock body down the road.

Here's a couple of pictures of the Accusump mounted before reinstalling the fan shroud. It's really a tight fit in there (and some clearancing was required), but everything sits nicely in just the right place.

Time for sleep!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190237_zpsxkdrqeds.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190237_zpsxkdrqeds.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190224_zpse6v7wu9c.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190224_zpse6v7wu9c.jpg.html)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190213_zpsu46n074v.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150317_190213_zpsu46n074v.jpg.html)

WSSix

03-18-2015, 05:47 AM

Congrats, Bryan!

waynieZ

03-19-2015, 08:15 AM

Great to hear that your ready. It looks like a good spot for the Accusump.

carbuff

03-19-2015, 07:32 PM

We made it!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150319_170055_zpsa1g6wfao.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150319_170055_zpsa1g6wfao.jpg.html)

Eric and I were working until about 7:00 last night, charging the AC and bolting on the belly pan and subframe cross bar. I got her all washed and and loaded and ready to leave this morning.

The drive up was uneventful, which is the best word I can use! :) I made a couple of stops along the way, one of which was to AGR since they were about 1/2 mile off of my path. (they will be replacing the PS pump, and apparently I need one after he showed me the metal floating around in the fluid of my current one) TOW drive great up the highway, smooth at speed. I can lug the engine down into the 1700 rpm range and it doesn't complain at all. Part throttle response feels better than before as well.

I haven't run it hard yet, just a couple of 6k+ rpm blasts. Tomorrow on the autocross course she'll get a good workout!

I did have one panic moment as I was driving to dinner. I hear something hit the firewall or the toe board, not sure which, but it didn't sound good. I stopped and looked everything over but didn't see any obvious problem. After I returned to the hotel, I grabbed a flashlight and started looking closer. I found one of my hose clamps had come apart, I must not have gotten it tight. The sound I hear was the other half leaving the car. I was happy this half stayed in place so that I could find it and relief my concern!

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150319_192028_zpstv6u5cpg.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/IMG_20150319_192028_zpstv6u5cpg.jpg.html)

At this point I'm hoping the weather is going to hold out for us tomorrow! The registration for this event is apparently really low, as evidenced by my number above (I was over 1800 last fall). I think the forecast is keeping people away. We still have a good chance of at least 1 of the days being good though! I'm hopeful...

carbuff

03-22-2015, 08:05 AM

I think it's time to write the final chapter to my "Bad day on the dyno" thread...

I returned home last night from the Fort Worth Spring Good Guys event. 480 miles or so on this trip, and everything is running great still. I have a couple of oil leaks from the new Accusump plumbing which I need to correct his week, but outside of that, TOW is running very well!

Compared to the previous 402 which I was running, this engine feels a bit more responsive to the throttle, runs just as smooth down the highway, and spins up quicker than before on the autocross course. At this point I'm really happy with the combination which I've put together.

Here are the final results from the autocross event this weekend. I was actually in the lead through 3 rounds, but then Chris Jacobs showed up and clobbered me. My best run of the weekend was lost due to not making the stop zone, but it still wouldn't quite have been good enough for second.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/carbuff69/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/image1_zpslogay20h.jpeg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/carbuff69/media/1971%20Firebird%20Formula%20-%20Project%20TOW/image1_zpslogay20h.jpeg.html)

It's time for some driver improvements! The car definitely has the potential for better times...

I still need to get the Holley HP setup tuned for the new motor. In the meantime, I've been learning more and more about tuning it myself, and at this stage it's running pretty well. I am curious what the dyno will show once we get that done.

I want to thank a few people from this forum for their help over the last couple of months: Tim, Steve, Eric specifically. Tim educated me on some options for what I could do to the LS7 which started me down the to that block. Steve and I have been bouncing ideas off of each other about the engine and our respective Accusump setups. And Eric for all of his work and pushing with me last week to get her together to make the trip. It would have never happened without his help and support!!!

Time to go wash all of the gunk off of TOW from the rainy roadtrip and get her ready for next weekend's USCA event.