Question about CPP C5 uprights for 1970-81 F-body

[Ernie W]

Hi. I'm new here, mostly just read on the forum. I'm building a 1980 Pontiac Firebird with a 6.0L LS 6-speed. I'm fixing to pull the subframe to do some metal work on the firewall area. I'm looking to do some small suspension and brake work. I also have solid bushings and subframe connectors.

With the brakes, I plan on running C5 front and 98-02 Camaro rear disc setup. Are the CPP C5 uprights a decent piece? Or should I keep walking and go with the Kore 3 hub setup on a modified spindle? I'll be using GM rotors and calipers purchased new thru the shop I work at. Just looking for some feedback on the CPP parts.

Thanks,
Eric

[WSSix]

The only advantage the CPP spindle will give you is a modern hub instead of individual bearings. Your stock individual bearings and spindle along with Kore3's billet hub is a fantastic piece for a street car. If you're going for a track car, you need to be in touch with SpeedTech and get the real AFX uprights along with the correct control arms. This will give you the altered steering and suspension geometry a track car needs and that the original AFX spindles were designed to accommodate.

Welcome to the site, Ernie. Be sure to start a build thread and show us the car. Good luck with your build, too.

[Che70velle]

If your wanting a noticeable improvement in your front suspension setup, I'd give Ron Sutton a call. He can help you with everything you need, at really affordable prices. Don't tell him I said this, but he's a genius! You will be happy you contacted him. He is a vendor here, check out Ron Sutton Race Technology.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If your handy with a sawzall, cut off wheel and have access to a brake lathe there is nothing wrong with the 2nd gen spindle.

Just have your factory rotor machined down to be used as a hub. Trim the caliper ears and add a Kore3 C5 caliper bracket.


http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10081-01

[Ernie W]

If your handy with a sawzall, cut off wheel and have access to a brake lathe there is nothing wrong with the 2nd gen spindle.

Just have your factory rotor machined down to be used as a hub. Trim the caliper ears and add a Kore3 C5 caliper bracket.


http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10081-01

You the man. I had stumbled across a pic that looked like the factory rotor cut down to make the hub but couldn't find any more info on it. I'm very glad you mentioned this. I'll have to go this route as most all I've read on the CPP wasn't the best.

I really wish I could afford to go with a full pro-tour style suspension but I don't have a large budget. I just want it to be better handling and more modern feeling. I'd like to one day be able to track the car some as the new track in Bowling Green is only a couple hours from me but for now just a street car with some spirited driving on the backroads of Kentucky.

I appreciate the help and suggestions guys, sorry for the newbie questions.

[WSSix]

No reason to apologize. That's what this place is all about.

[David Pozzi]

We tested the CPP spindles on Mary's car for a few events. The spindles were fine, the GMR hubs had some play and adjustment issues so we had to stop using them.

I would take the following into consideration and look at costs.

The stock spindle is OK, nothing really wrong with it, but to put larger brakes on it you have to cut the old caliper brackets off and bolt in an adapter bracket. The best stock spindles are the late second gen with larger outer wheel bearing. If you are using a floating caliper, the stock spindles work well and a taller upper ball joint can be used to help the poor camber gain. You need a hub to mount the rotor on since all second gen's came with disc only.

If you go to 13" or 14" rotors, along with non-floating calipers, then pad knock back is going to be an issue. How big an issue depends on a couple of other things:

If you have power brakes, the pedal moves half as much as manual brakes, this reduces pedal drop by half, so pad knock back is perhaps tolerable with power brakes, and terrible on a manual system. It also matters if the front and rear are non-floating calipers or just the front, and what size master cyl bore you are using.

The Corvette unit bearing hub fixes the knock back problem (in front). Using it on the CPP spindle allows everything to bolt up. The CPP spindle does not have a turn stop on it to limit turn angle, but neither do other aftermarket spindles.
You would have to use a tall ball joint to see any geometry improvement.

ATS makes a nice spindle that is forged Aluminum with 1" drop plus it's taller to fix camber gain. http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=279/category_id=36/mode=prod/prd279.htm

If you are on a tight budget, then look at floating calipers using corvette rotors on a stock spindle, then add a tall upper ball joint.
The CPP is middle ground and needed if you go with manual brakes and/or 6 piston fixed calipers.
The ATS spindle is top of the heap so to speak.

[Blake Foster]

We tested the CPP spindles on Mary's car for a few events. The spindles were fine, the GMR hubs had some play and adjustment issues so we had to stop using them.


That is an interesting comment. I am sure JSM would have some CRAZY long winded explanation about this as he touted these as the ABSOLUTE best thing going. and has always slagged on the hubs used by GM and ATS.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

We tested the CPP spindles on Mary's car for a few events. The spindles were fine, the GMR hubs had some play and adjustment issues so we had to stop using them.


That is an interesting comment. I am sure JSM would have some CRAZY long winded explanation about this as he touted these as the ABSOLUTE best thing going. and has always slagged on the hubs used by GM and ATS.

:_paranoid

[MillerBuilt]

That is an interesting comment. I am sure JSM would have some CRAZY long winded explanation about this as he touted these as the ABSOLUTE best thing going. and has always slagged on the hubs used by GM and ATS.


Hi Blake!

Here is a pic of Mr. Pozzi's experience pushing your AFX spindle/hub... If I recall David had approx.. 3/8" static clearance and upon hard cornering this was the result.....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d179/jaymillerone/shop200601_zpsa7fca352.jpg (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/jaymillerone/media/shop200601_zpsa7fca352.jpg.html)

And then there was the ONE time/event that David/Mary ran the GMR hub that they took first place in Del Mar on the Auto-X. I don't recall any shavings :popcorn2:

I would like to also ad (and hopefully David will verify), that he really spent no time working with myself to resolve the minimal "play" he was experiencing. (actually, if I searched hard enough I am sure I could find the email from him stating that....) Also, was about the time Art Morrison caught wind that David was trying out a NEW CPP Upright along with GMR Hub and decided to offer up a complete new front clip and was THE reason the CPP Upright and GMR Hub came off with no more testing...

So there you go Blake :headspin:

[Rod P]

:popcorn2: like watching a hockey game

[Vince@Meanstreets]

:popcorn2: like watching a hockey game

heavy on the checking....dude are you wearing pants?

:disgusted:

[Blake Foster]

:trophy-1302:
NICE
And we know for SURE it wasn't the wheel that was flexing right? because that to my knowledge is the ONLY time we have seen this happen. My Nova had no more than 1/4 to 3/8 clearance with no issues, So I just want to cover all the bases.
I know I have seen wheels like this (maybe not this brand as I don't know which it is ) Break the center out of them on the auto cross/ road race so I would assume there would be some FLEXING in the wheel??

I am not going to get into it.

[Ernie W]

Hmm, I didn't think I would get this much response on the topic. I don't autocross or road race, I do plan on going to the drag strip some. Would I be better off with the CPP spindle or modify my stock ones and go with the Kore 3 setup? My main concern was possible failure of the cpp spindle as some say its a cheap cast. Right now I'm leaning towards the Kore 3 route.

Thanks for the input guys, good to see some well known names chiming in on this.

[fishface]

See what a can of crap you opened Ernie, ya big trouble maker?? Lol. Just kidding, funny how a simple question can turn into a pissing contest.

[WSSix]

Ernie, you're building a street car like I am. I have Kore3's front C5/6 brake kit on stock spindles with their billet hubs and 1/2 studs. I have no doubt this setup will be plenty for my needs. I have no doubt it will be plenty for your needs as well. Keep it simple.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Ernie, you're building a street car like I am. I have Kore3's front C5/6 brake kit on stock spindles with their billet hubs and 1/2 studs. I have no doubt this setup will be plenty for my needs. I have no doubt it will be plenty for your needs as well. Keep it simple.

Agreed, we beat the hell out of many stock spindles with zero issues or failures. Can't say the same for the CPP stuff.

In my opinion a simple Kore 3 caliper bracket is cheaper than the C5 hub you will need.

David has some great advice on the ball joints but for a street car might not be necassary.

[David Pozzi]

We didn't have enough testing time with the GMR hubs to tell if they were good or bad, I think she ran two events, DelMar, & a track day. The machine work was outstanding but they gained play slightly, so we tightened them - slightly, then they loosened again so we adjusted again - slightly. Adjustments were done to Jason's specs, - zero preload, not .001" play as other bearings. We still had brake knock back issues & already had installed the Baer floater on the rear.

Mary then decided to change to an Art Morrison subframe, so we ended testing. We didn't have knock back with the Art Morrison sub, - using ZR1 hubs.

I'm no engineer, but I don't like seeing taper roller bearings that are that small & that close together, - as they have to be to fit inside the space of a Corvette hub. They must be pretty heavily loaded.

The one lap Camaro front wheel issue was due to wheel flex in my opinion (HRE). That car has always had minimal knock back, - even with ball bearing rear axles. OLC was using std Corvette bearing units at that time, later went to the ZR1 type but we saw no difference. At that time, OLC was having huge understeer issues (no rear bar) which put a lot more load on the front wheels.

[redfire69]

I've not seen any published issues with CPP spindle failures that are mentioned in this thread. Anyone else? Aren't there alot of cast spindles in our market already?

[Blake Foster]

The one lap Camaro front wheel issue was due to wheel flex in my opinion (HRE). That car has always had minimal knock back, - even with ball bearing rear axles. OLC was using std Corvette bearing units at that time, later went to the ZR1 type but we saw no difference. At that time, OLC was having huge understeer issues (no rear bar) which put a lot more load on the front wheels.

Thank YOU