Are adjustable Coil-Overs the Answer?

[tyoneal]

To All:

I would like to be able to adjust my car's heigth, and the dampening of the shocks, because sometimes I like a softer ride to cruise around on, and other times I like a lower firmer rider for handling and performance.

Tein makes some good systems that are adjustable from inside the car (Dampening), the heigth is adjustable from outside. Is there any reason this system couldn't be made to work well with any suspension system?

I know many of the systems have shocks with special valving for their packages, but, by being able to control your own rate of dampening, couldn't you tune your car to work with that system and have the advantage to adjust for ride heigth at the same time?

I'm a nooby to this so please be kind, where am I going wrong?

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Damn True]

When you dampen something you make it wet.
When you damp something you restrict its movement.

Sorry, pet peve.

[rockdogz]

When you dampen something you make it wet.
When you damp something you restrict its movement.

Sorry, pet peve.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dampen
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=damp

[Datsbad]

come on guys, lets not turn this into that other site with a bunch of smart asses

[rockdogz]

come on guys, lets not turn this into that other site with a bunch of smart asses
:captain:

Ok, ok - I use the Varishocks in front on the Alston subframe, and they have a couple inches of adjustability. Unfortunately I don't know if they make coilovers that fit on a stock subframe setup, or if that's what you are planning on running.

[tyoneal]

When you dampen something you make it wet.
When you damp something you restrict its movement.

Sorry, pet peve.

Damn True

Continue Reading:

damp·en P Pronunciation Key (dmpn)
v. damp·ened, damp·en·ing, damp·ens
v. tr.
To make damp.
To deaden, restrain, or depress: “trade moves... aimed at dampening protectionist pressures in Congress” (Christian Science Monitor).
To soundproof.

Did you pick that up??

Your Proud so Called, "pet peve"

is my, pet peve :D

Thanks for adding something constructive to my question. You are a true assett. :thumbsup:
--------------------------------------
Now, I'm sure you you know more than I do on this subject. Is my thinking flawed?

tyoneal

[Stuart Adams]

Ty, call DSE tommorrow at 704 662 3272 and ask for Kyle. He will give you the straight scoop and answer all your questions. :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Thanks Stuart:

I will do that.

tyoneal

[Beast2831]

The people at DSE are real nice and will help you out! No smart asses! Just people who want to help! :thumbsup:

[trapin]

tyoneal, you can go the route of getting adustable coilover shocks to play with the stiffness and ride height, but there will be a good deal of fabrication work involved with the DS&E stuff. If you don't mind doing that, then great. But if you're just looking for bolt-on stuff you can go with the Koni Adjustable shocks and give Tyler at ATS a call, they sell an adjustable coil spring that just replaces your stock spring. No fabrication required and they have a certain amount of adjustablity.

[Damn True]

Cute. It is true that the definitions according to Webster are similar. However, Merriam-Webster to the best of my knowedge has never built a shock absorber or designed a suspension system. There is such a thing as a difference between literal definition and contextual. In this case the contextual definitions are not the same.

Dampening refers to the musical technique of muting an instrument while playing it, or soon after, before it has lost its sustain (stopped ringing). It can be used on a wide variety of string and percussion instruments. This may be done with a mute.
Dampening also generally refers to the presence of water in trace amounts. It is found in several different forms, which can cause rot in wood or other organic material, corrosion in metals, and electrical short circuits.

Damping is any effect, either deliberately engendered or inherent to a system, that tends to reduce the amplitude of oscillations of an oscillatory system.

In physics and engineering, damping is mathematically modelled as a force with magnitude proportional to that of the velocity of the object but opposite in direction to it. Thus, for a simple mechanical damper, the force F is related to the velocity v by

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/b/9/eb960d92f1e939a1a504054f12834be5.png
where B is the damper constant.
This relationship is perfectly analogous to electrical resistance. See Ohm's law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping

Feel free though to keep using the incorrect words and being proud to do so. Just trying to help you out.

[XcYZ]

I'm not going to debate accuracy of vocabulary in context of the usage of the term to dampen... but I will say that using Wikipedia as a reference is not the best thing to do. It's widely known that they (the bloggers) have been scrutinized for being wrong or spreading misinformation. Even the owner of Wikipedia acknowleges that. But hey, he's making A LOT of cash. lol

[trapin]

I think we've debated the word "dampen" enough. They guy asked about coil overs.

If this were my thread, I'd be absolutely furious right now. :mad:

[Stuart Adams]

Ty, call DSE. This is ridiculous. This is how threads get shut down because of smart ass answers to legitimate real questions.

[Damn True]

Ok, how about Fox Racing Shox:

DAMPER - A fluid chamber with a means of regulating the fluid flow to restrain the speed of the moving end of the damper during the compression or rebound strokes. A set of forks and a rear shock are considered dampers.

DAMPER SPEED - The relative speed in which the moving end of a damper compresses or rebounds. The two different speeds are high and low.

DAMPING - The process of absorbing the energy of impacts transmitted through the forks or rear shock on the compression stroke, and the process of absorbing the energy of the spring on the rebound stroke.

DAMPING CIRCUITS - There are normally four damping circuits which affect the damper’s speed. There is both a low and high speed circuit for the compression and rebound strokes.

COMPRESSION DAMPING - The damping circuit that absorbs the energy of compression forces on the damper.

From Tire Rack:
Shock/Strut/Damper: Convert the suspension’s kinetic energy into heat by forcing fluid through a series of valves within the shock body. Provides control of unwanted suspension motions allowing the tires’ contact patches to better stay in contact with the road surface. Can have a major affect on the vehicle ride quality and handling balance anytime the vehicle suspension is moving through its range of motion.

From Monroe Shock Absorbers:
Damped, Dampened:
A force or action opposing a vibrating motion to reduce the amount of vibration.

http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/DG/YHyun-Jan06.pdf
http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/bogies/enidine/enidine1.html
http://www.tein.com/edfc.html

Regarding the use of a polymer end-stroke damper:
Definition: Hysteresis, or variations in properties resulting from dynamic loading conditions. Damping is related to the fundamental viscoelastic mechanisms of polymers and is characteristic of the plastic as fabricated, the frequency of loading, and the stress. It provides a mechanism for dissipating energy during deformation of a material, without excessive temperature rise, preventing premature brittle fracture and improving fatigue performance.


Yes the two words are often used to the same end, however the vast majority of individuals who work with the technology on a regular basis will use the word "damper" as opposed to "dampener". Factoid: Google returns 300,000 hits on "suspension dampener" vs. 1,300,000 for "suspension damper".

Point is, I tried to help the guy out so that if he called one of the companies he is looking into he would sound more knowledgeable on the subject on the phone thus improving the quality of the answers he is likely to recieve.

[Damn True]

That said, as to your specific question there are a number of answers.
Yes, adjustable coilovers will give you the ability to tune ride height within a given range, and yes adjustable compression and rebound damping will give you the ability to tune the damping within a given range. You didn't mention if you have an OE or aftermarket subframe. If you have an OE there is a point of diminishing returns on a low ride height. At some point you will run into the bump stops - bad. At some point you will get out of the "sweet-spot" for good geometry. Carl C has explored that range quite a bit and has found that the suspension dosen't like to go below a point at which the LCA bolt intersects the middle of the LCA ball-joint. According to him, below that point the front end gets rather "darty" (his words).
If you have an aftermarket subframe, the above may or may not be true depending upon the specific geometry of that subframe.
Spring rates and free lengths must be carefully selected to avoid spring bind and overdamping or underdamping the spring. In addition, it is imperative that the spring rates and damping are tuneable in ranges comensurate with the springs and dampers at the rear of the car. Obdviously, making big changes at one end requires similar changes at the other.

[TonyL]

ooh ooh! defintion wars!

# S: (v) dampen, damp, soften, weaken, break (lessen in force or effect) "soften a shock"; "break a fall"

From wikipedia.
Dampening is the gradual reduction the amplitudes of oscillations, which can be observed, e.g., when plucking string of a musical instrument. In the physical sciences, this effect is also called damping.

Here's bilstien using the word dampening on three seperate occasions.
Requires adobe acrobat (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=site%3Awww.bilstein.com+dampening&btnG=Search)

and edelbrock
"Conventional shocks have a fixed dampening rate and can only react to the relative motion between the chassis and the wheel." from here. (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/ias_shocks2.html)

From KYB.
"AGX® Sport Adjustable Shocks and Struts allow drivers to adjust dampening to match specific driving conditions quickly." (these are actually a good choice for ya. tyoneal) here. (http://www.kyb.com/products/detail.php?ID=4)

Its one of those situations where if you look hard enough, you can find something to support your position. That, and I just felt like jerkin True's chain. :unibrow:

[Steve68]

:willy: oh please help us!!!!!!!

[Stuart Adams]

Ty, did you make that call yet......

[Beast2831]

Sorry Ty! Some of us do want to help. :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Yes, this morning I made the call. Kyle was very nice and knowledgable. I am glad I have decided to go the coil over route.

Conversation quickly turned to the new sub-frame unit. It seems that it will be a "True" Coil over type. From what I understand:

Same wheels and tires as a Viper (Sweet)
Front 18X10, 275 up to 295 size tire
Rear 18X12, 335
Power Rack and Pinion, 13 to 1
SBC and BBC

Evidently it is set up to have a comfortable ride mated with great handling.

Stuart, Troye, Tony, Scott, Steve, thanks a lot for your help.

Damn True, Don't know if it is just attention you want, or, if you are just a guy with a problem. You obviously aren't a dummy, unless you get more out of irritating people than you do lending a hand, but if you fall in the latter, I hope get it back 300% from all these people you go out of your way to piss off. Go get a life or better yet, a therapist.

Sincerely,

tyoneal

[Damn True]

Wow, I'm one of two people who contributed anything more than "call DSE :hail: " and I'm the bad guy.

Awesome. :thumbsup:

If you wanted brand specific leg humping and not information you should have said so from the outset.

As for "going out of my way to piss people off" :censored: you pal. What I did was go out of my way to give you a bit of information about shock terminology so you could avoid sounding like a goon if you did make some calls, and ya know a bit of actual information about your project would have been helpfull to that end.

Whatever.

[Van B]

When you dampen something you make it wet.
When you damp something you restrict its movement.

Sorry, pet peve.

Peeve since we are getting technical.

[Stuart Adams]

Damn True, Ty was asking the board a question and I take offense to your comments to leg humping and that I told him to call DSE for some suspension info. for a 69 Camaro. For questions regarding a 69 camaro I feel Kyle is VERY qualified to give non - partial real world facts. I have dealt with DSE on many occasions and you will get straight forward ( not the Bullshi-, that you posted) info. There are other fine companies that could help, but in my opinion I felt Ty would benefit from talking to him. He can obviously listen and make his own decisions from there.

Your posts on the topic were ridiculous and emberassing. Brand humping, no not here, but we can see the BS through the keyboard and that is were you run king.

[lil427z]

stuart . well said.
thanks rick k :thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Stuart-

Thanks for the good leads. You and the other people on this forum have been a delight to converse with.

"Damn True", if you live anywhere near Dallas, Texas, let's meet. I'll give you and your ..... (deleted by Mod)

**** Moderator Note: Even if it's not meant seriously we can't be having threats of violence on the board. I'm sure you understand.. Lets stay on target and put this in the "history" column. Thanks. ****

tyoneal

BTW: Despite how I feel about you as a person now, based on your behavior on this forum, I do appreciate, respect, and Thank You, for your service to our County, that speaks well of you.

[Damn True]

Damn True, Ty was asking the board a question and I take offense to your comments to leg humping and that I told him to call DSE for some suspension info. for a 69 Camaro. For questions regarding a 69 camaro I feel Kyle is VERY qualified to give non - partial real world facts. I have dealt with DSE on many occasions and you will get straight forward ( not the Bullshi-, that you posted) info. There are other fine companies that could help, but in my opinion I felt Ty would benefit from talking to him. He can obviously listen and make his own decisions from there.

Your posts on the topic were ridiculous and emberassing. Brand humping, no not here, but we can see the BS through the keyboard and that is were you run king.


Stuart,
Here's the thing, Ive spent the last seventeen years working with all manner of linear dampers and actuators. Everything from hydraulic and electro-servo aircraft flight controls, aircraft shock struts, robotics, stepper motor driven lead screws, ultra-high end speed sensative dampers and position sensative dampers, and pneumatic actuators and dampers. In that seveteen years of experience I have learned nothing that would equip me to question your knowledge of the human eye. Therefore I would never think to question anything you have to say on the matter. Know what I mean?

Tyoneal's question was very vague and left a lot of information open to conjecture. Additionaly, he admitted that he had very little experience dealing with the matter. Therefore my response was equally general and intended to equip him with enough information to ask a more specific question either of me, or of someone the likes of the folks at DSE.

Was I BS'ing? Certainly not. Greater detail would have been superflous and potentially misleading given the fact that Tyoneal gave no specifics as to his application.
Was I a bit of a smart-a$$? Well, yeah. But that's just my unique (for better or worse) personality.


Let me just say, that I have nothing but respect for Kyle and Stacy. Fine folks, fine products. In fact I have about 8 boxes of their stuff sitting in wait for installation. That said, they are not always the right solution for every problem. As such I find it amusing that some view them as the ONLY source of information regarding PT type vehicles.

[Stuart Adams]

Damn True, no personal hard feelings here. I told Ty to call DSE because the answers posted to his question were not answering the question, if ya know what I mean, so instead of keeping the thing going, I told him to call Kyle. Not because of leg humping, I know Kyle would give him info.(generalized - not product specific or brand specific) that he could then move on to purchasing parts from whoever.

Like you said the question was vague and broad, Kyle would give him generalized nfo. to go on from there. I never said buy this or that from whoever.

Lets move on and remember the cars bring us together but the people make it special.