LS Swap Vs. Procharged SBC

[DannyG]

Alright all, I know this has been done before... Many times... But I'm curious as to what you all think I should do in my particular situation.

I've been pricing out an LS3/T56 swap and, as we all know, it ain't cheap! All said and done, I'm around $21-22k with a new 480 horse LS3 and T56 Magnum, and that's with a lot of shopping around (install labor included).

The other option I've been considering is throwing an intercooled P1SC on my existing 383, at around 6psi, and putting a TKO 600 behind it. Power output would be roughly the same as the LS swap and the cost would be closer to $12-13k. Hence, the temptation to go this route, even though I love the idea of running an LS in my car.

My Camaro is not a daily driver, by any means, nor will it ever be. However, for the few months a year I'll drive it (maybe 3-4k miles) I do want to be able to start it up, beat on it a bit at the track (auto-x and drag strip), as well as drive it wherever the hell I want without issues. I also want it to have that "Wow" factor when I pop the hood at shows, which I believe either would provide.

Bottom line, if money were absolutely no issue, I'd go the LS route... However, that's not the case. While I live fairly comfortably, by no means am I rich. However, as a respected and well-to-do friend of mine once said to me, and it resonated, "you only live once and should do what makes you happy - you can always make more money." Still, I find myself going back and forth with this decision... First world problems, right?!

Anyways... Help! What do you think I should do? I can't make up my mind; help me choose a path so I can move forward with one or the other. :thankyou:

[Vegas69]

You can get 450-475hp out of a 383 all day long with no pro charger. I vote to spruce up your 383 and put a t56 magnum behind it. As it sounds like money is a consideration or you wouldn't be asking. :thankyou:

[WSSix]

If your 383 isn't putting about 400 to the wheels now, you need to change some parts out. I intend to build my LT1 into a 383. It should easily put over 400hp and tq to the wheels when done.

With that said, no one gives whoop about a 383 SBC. Unless it sounds like a spawn of satan is in the engine trying to get out while you idle through the parking lot, it won't draw a crowd by itself. You'll need the blower or the LS3 to do that. So do you want something that people drool over or do you want a car that sounds great and puts a smile on your face when you mash the go pedal?

My path would be to build the 383 with maybe adding the blower if you really want to get squirrelly. I think they sound better than LS engines. I'd dress it up cleanly and just enjoy the drive.

[DBasher]

All the cool kids are running twins these days! I've got two buddies making the switch from pro chargers to turbos. Even a single turbo would be better than the P1SC. Shooooot, my dad's making 7lbs with a $400 turbo on an old Studebaker.

Just my .02

[DannyG]

All the cool kids are running twins these days! I've got two buddies making the switch from pro chargers to turbos. Even a single turbo would be better than the P1SC. Shooooot, my dad's making 7lbs with a $400 turbo on an old Studebaker.

Just my .02

Ok, way off subject, but where in Renton do you live?! I grew up there...

[DBasher]

"In a van down by the River!"

I'm actually on the Cedar River just off MV hwy. The old house was near Doofer's, that wasn't going to work long term. :happy23:

Don't rule out a turbo or two, just sayin.

:thumbsup:
Dan

[DannyG]

"In a van down by the River!"

I'm actually on the Cedar River just off MV hwy. The old house was near Doofer's, that wasn't going to work long term. :happy23:

Don't rule out a turbo or two, just sayin.

:thumbsup:
Dan

Funny, I lived very close to you for years - Right by Hazen. :cheers:

Ok, back to the subject... I have built several turbo cars in the past and, while I appreciate the hell out of the power they help produce and love the sudden rush of reaching full boost, I'm shooting for something with a more consistent power band. Turbo lag always drove me nuts.

[clill]

Why does the LS3 have to be new ? Have you priced getting a takeout from a low mile car ?

[XLexusTech]

Why does the LS3 have to be new ? Have you priced getting a takeout from a low mile car ?
Yet to see one that made sence.. They are usually close to the crate motor price

[speedjohnston]

Are you looking for the power or just the 'wow' factor? Your small block with blower Pistons, the right compression and right cam Should make a lot more then 480hp. You can also pick up a used LS cheap, put a blower on that and make 550-600 at the wheels with out much trouble and expense. I can spit out many more options.... Lol. Oh the decisions.

[DannyG]

Question

Why does the LS3 have to be new ? Have you priced getting a takeout from a low mile car ?

Answer

Yet to see one that made sence.. They are usually close to the crate motor price

I've done a ton of research/shopping and, the best deal I've found for a used, low mileage LS3, was about $1k less than a brand new crate with an additional 50 horses. The extra 50 ponies alone is worth another $1k to me, let alone having a brand new, warrantied engine.

[DannyG]

Are you looking for the power or just the 'wow' factor? Your small block with blower Pistons, the right compression and right cam Should make a lot more then 480hp. You can also pick up a used LS cheap, put a blower on that and make 550-600 at the wheels with out much trouble and expense. I can spit out many more options.... Lol. Oh the decisions.

Yes. I'm looking for the best combination of both - I want power but I want it to be usable, if that makes sense. I'm not looking to build some monster that makes 750+ horsepower yet is wound so tight that I'm constantly breaking crap - I really want the car to be able to run mid 11's, get thrown around competitively in autocross, and start and run reliably for me on demand.

For this reason, I'm really starting to lean back in the direction of making the big LS investment. It's a big up front cost but, in addition to powerful reliability and wow factor, what a great foundation for future mods. It seems like an inevitable move at some point, so I should probably just do it now.

[WSSix]

If that's the case, then yes, go LS. have you considered getting an older pullout and having it rebuilt? You could go iron 6.0 and easily make more power than the crate LS3 with heads, cam, intake, and exhaust. Or, go LS2 and do the same thing. You can also stroke a 6.0 and bury the LS3. Those options will all be cheaper than the LS3 crate motor. Most of the factory parts in an LS engine can be reused and handle loads of power. So no need to buy a crank or rods for instance. No reason to use an aftermarket intake or aftermarket heads. Factory or factory modified works so very well.

[69x22]

You have to ask yourself what your goals with the car? Are you building it to drag race, autocross, or just drive around and enjoy? I can tell you Pro Chargers and auto crossing don't work well. The power comes in, in the upper rpm, when it does hang on because you are now drifting.

[DannyG]

You have to ask yourself what your goals with the car? Are you building it to drag race, autocross, or just drive around and enjoy? I can tell you Pro Chargers and auto crossing don't work well. The power comes in, in the upper rpm, when it does hang on because you are now drifting.

Very good point... I used to have a pretty built fox body stang with a Paxton on it, and it was out of control on the autocross course. I can't believe I hadn't thought about that.

[Sparks67]

If your goal is a supercharged engine, then you might look at the LSA. Ebay has a few LSA pullouts. Cost is a little more than the LS3 525 hp, but you have more upgrade options with the LSA engine than an LS3. For example the LSA has built in oil squirters for the pistons. If you plan in the future to upgrade the LS3 for a supercharger, then you have to buy a bare block then have it machined for the squirters.

If your goal is LS3 crate engine, and you plan to keep it NA. Then you should be fine.

Just make sure your car is structurally sound, because all the first gens have hidden issues. Factory subframe mounts are typically rusted out. Easy fix, but you still have to drop the subframe to fix it.

Jeff


PS.

I have owned 2 383's sbc but I upgraded to LS3 418 with LS9 supercharger. 841 hp and 816 ft/lbs torque at only 10.9 lbs boost, but if I wanted more power then I could go to 15 Lbs boost. I can run pump gas and I have more horsepower and torque than my full roller 383.

[71RS/SS396]

Yes. I'm looking for the best combination of both - I want power but I want it to be usable, if that makes sense. I'm not looking to build some monster that makes 750+ horsepower yet is wound so tight that I'm constantly breaking crap - I really want the car to be able to run mid 11's, get thrown around competitively in autocross, and start and run reliably for me on demand.

For this reason, I'm really starting to lean back in the direction of making the big LS investment. It's a big up front cost but, in addition to powerful reliability and wow factor, what a great foundation for future mods. It seems like an inevitable move at some point, so I should probably just do it now.

You're going to need more than 480 fwhp to get in to the mid 11's. It's hard to get these cars to 60 ft with the low profile tires and suspension set-up to turn, you need to make up the et with power. My old engine made 515 rwhp and the best et was 11.6. My wifes LS2 makes 440 rwhp and the best et to date is 12.5.

[badazz81z28]

You're going to need more than 480 fwhp to get in to the mid 11's. It's hard to get these cars to 60 ft with the low profile tires and suspension set-up to turn, you need to make up the et with power. My old engine made 515 rwhp and the best et was 11.6. My wifes LS2 makes 440 rwhp and the best et to date is 12.5.

I agree, build a dragster or an autocross car as you will disapointed with one of them if you try to do both. I took my car to the track on my low profile street tires and spun half way down the track. I put a pair of 275/15s drag radials and dropped nearly 3 seconds. 460 RWHP and I can run mid 11s with full interior (Keep in mind DA plays a role too).

[DannyG]

You're going to need more than 480 fwhp to get in to the mid 11's. It's hard to get these cars to 60 ft with the low profile tires and suspension set-up to turn, you need to make up the et with power. My old engine made 515 rwhp and the best et was 11.6. My wifes LS2 makes 440 rwhp and the best et to date is 12.5.

I should've specified - The actual quarter mile time isn't that important to me. Just having the power to weight ratio to be capable of those kinds of times. I'll have 17" DRs which will slightly help the cause too.

[badazz81z28]

I should've specified - The actual quarter mile time isn't that important to me. Just having the power to weight ratio to be capable of those kinds of times. I'll have 17" DRs which will slightly help the cause too.

Danny, a modded LS3 will be totally capable of 11s with good tires and suspension. I vote LS over any old school BBC/SBC only because the technology and performance for dollar is just so superior. The weight advantage of the all aluminum engine helps too.

[Twoblackmarks...]

My opinion. An LS would be the smart choice performance wise and everything else, but if you choose an SBC you will probably have an engine nobody else has soon, Since everybody else has LS in their cars now.

[badazz81z28]

My opinion. An LS would be the smart choice performance wise and everything else, but if you choose an SBC you will probably have an engine nobody else has soon, Since everybody else has LS in their cars now.

I really don't think LS engines are that common. Many people don't have the knowledge or money for such a swap. Of all the car shows I went to this summer, very few LSs. Still the majority is sporting the sbc

[Vegas69]

They made small blocks for 50 years?

[Sparks67]

They made small blocks for 50 years?

The first SBC was in 1955 with a displacement of 265 cu in. Technically, the Gen V is still a SBC. http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Aug/0818_chevysmallblock.html
GEN I SBC are more common at the car shows, but my Gen 1 SBC 350 with 2 piece rear main always leaked.

Jeff

[Vegas69]

I was being a bit of a smart ass. Good luck going to any car show in America and not seeing a traditional small block chevy.

[Twoblackmarks...]

I really don't think LS engines are that common. Many people don't have the knowledge or money for such a swap. Of all the car shows I went to this summer, very few LSs. Still the majority is sporting the sbc

Ok, I may have exaggerated a bit, but it is an very growing trend, especially in "handling/Pro-Touring" type of cars, wich is the case here, not only American cars but all brands.

And I think it`s cooler to have an Hot Rodded brand-X-engine than an "bolt-in" LS (even though it is often better)

I do like LS motors! Even if it do not seem like that. I like ALL engines.

But for usability and overall performance an stockish LS is probably hard to beat in comparison. I would use what I have, it is already running and fits in the car. $$ adds up fast probably. It is often too much camshaft that ruins usability the most anyway.

Do what makes you the most happy, thats whats important. And not what others think. :)

[DannyG]

Do what makes you the most happy, thats whats important. And not what others think. :)

Truth.

[badazz81z28]

It does get expensive to do it right, I agree to do what ever makes you happy. I'm very pleased with my LS, except for the low end power.

[markss28]

I thought about going the LS route but it would have cost a small fortune. I changed my heads and cam on my 388 sbc to Profiler heads (they are badazz) and went with a lunati voodoo roller cam. Tons of power all over the rpm range. It cost me about 5 grand less than an LS and saved me probably 3k more from having to change everything out like harness, exhaust, computer, and accessories. I have no regrets.

[bergers59]

my dads 383:
.030 bore
5.7 rods
9.6:1 static compression
cast eagle crank
gm heads ported and matched (forget the casting but i know they were popular in the 70s for drag and circle track racing)
edelbrock rpm airgap
~450 hp, a set of afr heads would push it to 500 no problem.

[gmorris]

I went from a true 800HP BBC that would rev to 8K to a 418 Ls3 making 630 HP and am much happier...although I went TKO 600 to auto so that torque multiplication makes a big difference. The car is smoother, quieter, better in traffic and feels 90% as fast. The only time it feels like it's slower is over 100mph when the 540 would just keep pulling until you ran out of balls. This one pulls but it starts to slow down at triple digits a bit. Plus I now get 22mpg compared to my previous best of 10 with the efi BBC.