Discussion about the actual resale value of a Pro-touring car

[ironworks]

First off everyone knows that it costs more to build these cars then it does to just purchase one from some one else done. I see alot of guys sell pretty nice cars from 60k to 100k. That cost 2 - 4 times the amount they recoup. But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

With a 30-45K camaro, it would be pretty stock suspension, older paint but still nice, But very reliable, probably small block, or big block or LS1 but not done super nice under hood with an LS.

45-60K camaro would have and LS engine modern billet wheels, probably an LS engine, with possibly aftermarket suspension, Nice new paint but not show stopping perfect.

60-100k - Definitely after market suspension, probably LS7 or higher, mini tubbed, high end detailed interior. Possibly lots of professional quality work.

My questions, Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another? Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install?

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car? Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower?

Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Just wondering.

[ArisESQ]

If you're just looking to build a car to sell, the main goal should be investing money in features and attributes that are attractive to the broadest group of people possible.

Features like a well engineered suspension, and heavily modified interior or exterior may be worth a lot of money to the right people. However, the added cost of those elements will probably deter the vast majority of people who are just looking for a cool car.

So I think if you distill a pro-touring car down to it's essential pieces, you would end up with the following:


RELIABILITY
minitubs
"nice" wheels and tires
a decent set of disc brakes
"finished" engine bay
proper stance
LS motor (I'd say for highest profit margin a stock LS2 with a mild cam)
stock interior
stock exterior

[DBasher]

I'd price out a full RideTech set up, bigger brakes, a set of Rushforths with tires and a fuel injected crate motor with OD trans. and see what I had left. Let's say that all comes to around 30k.

Can you find a nice Camaro with good paint and nice interior for 15-20k? Then, could you sell if for more than 60k?

Making 10-15k on a build sounds good but if the bills are getting paid and you were making 2-5k is that enough?

I know lots of people have money but I think the realistic magic number for a guy getting into the "look" is 45-50k. Let's face it, most guys want the look and will never track the car.

Great topic
:thumbsup:
Dan

[Swain]

Lol. Better post pics of that thing on a trailer tomorrow.


First off everyone knows that it costs more to build these cars then it does to just purchase one from some one else done. I see alot of guys sell pretty nice cars from 60k to 100k. That cost 2 - 4 times the amount they recoup. But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

With a 30-45K camaro, it would be pretty stock suspension, older paint but still nice, But very reliable, probably small block, or big block or LS1 but not done super nice under hood with an LS.

45-60K camaro would have and LS engine modern billet wheels, probably an LS engine, with possibly aftermarket suspension, Nice new paint but not show stopping perfect.

60-100k - Definitely after market suspension, probably LS7 or higher, mini tubbed, high end detailed interior. Possibly lots of professional quality work.

My questions, Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another? Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install?

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car? Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower?

Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Just wondering.

[GregWeld]

JCG should be able to build that for you no problem.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Sometimes the things that sell the car are the little details that in the greater picture didn't really cost much to do.

Hose and harness placement.
The way the car sits.
No funky noises when driving.
Isn't a pain to drive.
Over all fitment and cleanliness.

neat and tidy sell.

As far as resale? I'd rather build and sell 10 $30K cars than 1 @ $90-100K build car. Its easier to over deliver on a camaro in the $30K range

[markss28]

This is a great topic and I'm very glad someone brought this up. I have what I consider a budget build. (Nice paint, good interior, sbc 500+ hp, overdrive, big brakes, Boze wheels, hotchkis suspension, AC and stereo system). I have seen cars like mine go for like 75k and I think that's just nuts. Personally I think something like this should be 30-50 depending on the finish.

Not to bring anyone up but there was a sweet blue camaro, minitubbed, nice wide wheels, Ls high hp, nice interior going for 55k. I think it was priced right for any buyer.

[Ketzer]

I think the name on the parts helps sell the car but not always at a higher price.
Sorta like having a pool in your backyard doesn't add value to your house but might help it sell to the right buyer over another similar house in the neighborhood. (talking about regular pools, not Rodger pools...)




Jeff-

[MaxHarvard]

This is a great topic and I'm very glad someone brought this up. I have what I consider a budget build. (Nice paint, good interior, sbc 500+ hp, overdrive, big brakes, Boze wheels, hotchkis suspension, AC and stereo system). I have seen cars like mine go for like 75k and I think that's just nuts. Personally I think something like this should be 30-50 depending on the finish.

Not to bring anyone up but there was a sweet blue camaro, minitubbed, nice wide wheels, Ls high hp, nice interior going for 55k. I think it was priced right for any buyer.

And the new owner was pretty happy with the car :)

I priced it accordingly to what I thought the market would bare for that type of car in that condition with those parts...etc...etc... As I'm sure you know, asking price isn't what you always end up with.

[Musclerodz]

There are 2 buyers for Pro-touring cars I have found. The educated buyer that knows what he wants and the uneducated buyer that wants the look like but doesn't know what to look for. I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to price as I have seen RS cars sell cheap at Barrett and have seen a buddy of mine get 74k out of a 69 with noting more than mini tubs, billet goodies, LS1, and a set of Rushforths on it. I think too much personalization is a kiss of death to resale value. I'm not knocking RS in any way, I LOVE their work and style. I also believe certain parts do add value just like hardwood floors and granite tops add value to your home, but I also think you can do too much and narrow your prospective buyer pool down where it might be hard to sell the car.

[GregWeld]

Hellfire will bring top dollar.... BirdNest.... not so much. LOL

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Hellfire will bring top dollar.... BirdNest.... not so much. LOL

Now I know why said person is clearing his stable.. That or the futureliner.

[DBasher]

So take this one for example.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4685754768.html

Assuming you don't touch the paint and the interior is good. Talk him down to 18k.

Add fuel injection and an OD trans
RideTech bolt ons
Same rims, new tires to match the new height

Nice vintage muscle that looks and drives better than new, nothing crazy and can be put back to stock. Average dude at the local XXX having fun and getting the looks.

What's it worth?

[214Chevy]

and the uneducated buyer that wants the look like but doesn't know what to look for.

....and that's why mine will never be for sale. Other than some unforseen family emergency, uhhh...nope. But now, like Mike mentioned, if an uneducated buyer just has to have it and offers me some stupid, ridiculous amount of money, it'll never be for sale.

[onevoice]

First off everyone knows that it costs more to build these cars then it does to just purchase one from some one else done. I see alot of guys sell pretty nice cars from 60k to 100k. That cost 2 - 4 times the amount they recoup. But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

With a 30-45K camaro, it would be pretty stock suspension, older paint but still nice, But very reliable, probably small block, or big block or LS1 but not done super nice under hood with an LS.

45-60K camaro would have and LS engine modern billet wheels, probably an LS engine, with possibly aftermarket suspension, Nice new paint but not show stopping perfect.

60-100k - Definitely after market suspension, probably LS7 or higher, mini tubbed, high end detailed interior. Possibly lots of professional quality work.

My questions, Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another? Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install?

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car? Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower?

Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Just wondering.

Thats a lot of questions, but a couple of obvious points stick out. I think your prices are on the high end. A mostly stock suspension nice good small block car isn't in the $30k-$45k range. I listed my 67 about a year ago, and it was a helluva lot nicer than that description and got real offers in the high-mid twenties. I decided to keep it for now.

You are a shop so I assume you are looking primarily at how to make money from your last question, ie the GMG type builds for resale. My opinion from watching the for sale ads for a while and trying to sell my car is that the money is ALL in negotiating a cheap buy, and working the advertising on the sale. Not to mention you can't believe anything you see on TV, especially buy /sell amounts. The car in the craigslist ad a couple of posts up is a perfect example. Probably a 20 footer, 4wheel drum, with a little rust hiding. Selling a personal car is a huge pain in the ass, and the money is in watching it for a while, pointing out the flaws and then lowballing. People get so tired of dealing with crackpots, they often take the money to end the misery.

Your problem as a shop is that the your reputation rides on every sale, unless you want GMG's hack reputation:lol: .

[Schwartz Perf]

Neat topic.

I agree with MuscleRodz, in that there are different types of buyers.
If I was not in the business, but had similar knowledge that I do currently about pro-touring cars, I would care about the suspension, brakes, engine, and how good the bodywork was. I feel this would be the same for any pro-touring educated individual.

Now, talking about the average guy who doesn't know about the pro-touring world, "oh man.. this thing has 4 wheel discs?? AND a 383??? SOLD" ;)

As the pro-touring trend grows, (and economy gets better) I do believe that the 100k cars will sell better, but it seems like right now it's still not to the full potential.

It's just like building a house.. basically the same principles apply. I would pay a little more for a house that had been outfitted with 220v for welders and lifts, compared to a Joe Schmoe who plugs his 1hp air compressor in to fill up his lawn mower tires.. because he doesn't have a use or desire for 220.

In my personal opinion, I don't think resale value should matter all that much if you're building a car, as long as its your car and you love it because it was built to your specification. If they're quick flips where little to no bodywork is required, that's ok.. but 95% of the cars we've had through here have had a rough history in one way or another.. which ends up costing the end user more money since they're doing a full build & don't want to skimp on something that matters in the long run.

-Dale

[214Chevy]

compared to a Joe Schmoe who plugs his 1hp air compressor in to fill up his lawn mower tires.. because he doesn't have a use or desire for 220.

Hey, no need to get personal and make fun of us guys. Besides, mines is a 3 HP. :poke: :poke:

[Vegas69]

Actual Resale of a Pro Touring car? Way less than the owner's blinders can let him see. I always like to see the for sale threads and all the comments about what a steal it is at that price. They just aren't the buyer.

I think my car and Max's are a good litmus for the hobby. His sold for around 50k mine sold for $87,500. Which now seems like a big number to me.

I think loud colors like red and orange, nice wheels, right stance with economic parts, attention to detail, and not to personalized for max profit. A car in the 30-50k range has the largest pool of buyers that are more likely to buy off emotion and impulse.

[ironworks]

Like has been said here many time actual build cost can be vary a lot. I'm just curious the add items that bring the most money on the block? I'm not really talking about the super duper over the top half million dollar cars built that are usually build for certain awards. I'm more talking about nice driver cars with some accessories. Not the cars built per spec to what the owner wants, everyone knows you can buy a car close to what you want for way cheaper then having a car built.






This has been a topic of discussion in my world lately.

[DBasher]

Rodger are you looking at buying and flipping less expensive cars or is it just a discussion?

I've always done well buying beaters. A little clean up and detailing, some tuning so they can be driven daily and then make them sit right. The guys that buy em know they aren't perfect but feel like they are getting into something they can improve on. Win win.

You're in a position that if you had a driver condition solid rig that sat right, more people would see it. Your selling a dream to a future customer, he's now part of the cool kid club without going broke...yet. We did this at the shop I worked at years ago, we always had a shop bike, car or truck that was for sale. Used for parts runs, grabbing lunch or going to local shows....always made good money and most the time a new customer.

Do you have a good amount of traffic buy the shop?

Dan

[dhutton]

Like has been said here many time actual build cost can be vary a lot. I'm just curious the add items that bring the most money on the block? I'm not really talking about the super duper over the top half million dollar cars built that are usually build for certain awards. I'm more talking about nice driver cars with some accessories. Not the cars built per spec to what the owner wants, everyone knows you can buy a car close to what you want for way cheaper then having a car built.






This has been a topic of discussion in my world lately.

I was told by someone I know who sells quite a few classic/muscle cars every month that the money is in buying nice clean cars, adding wheels and lowering springs along with engine bay and trunk detailing etc. Once you start making the sort of changes wanted by members of this forum it gets a lot tougher to make money.

Don

[GregWeld]

Making money on cars is all made on the BUY side....


I agree with Don... you can't make money on cars building them to be real cars. There's just nothing left in 'em.

[ironworks]

I have just seen a lot of nice deals lately that are begging to make some money on. I understand the cheaper it is the wider the market in some respects, but also narrows the market as some guys want nicer stuff. M6 business is just focused around selling hours which means you want to get paid for all the hours you flag, ideally. But also finding guys to build cheaper well built bolt together kinda cars is a lot simpler then guys who can do high end fab. So just looking at options to grow the business.

And just think about a side of the business I have not really looked at before.

[DBasher]

X3 on the buy side.

I haven't been to Bakersfield in awhile and don't know anything about the PT scene. You being a hot rod shop could very easily get into the 50's and 60's cruiser scene. More of a following I would think, plenty of people out there that want an old car but may not have the ability to make it happen.

Last car I flipped (besides the sweet mustang II) was a 66 galaxie. Cleaned it up, rebuilt the carb., fixed a few minor things, lowered with black steel wheels and skinny whites. The kid that bought it thought it was the coolest and just wanted to be bombing around in something old. After everything, I made $1500 and got a real nice S&W 915, not a ton of money but it paid for me to play with an old car and I have a new firearm now.

You've got the shop, the talent and a frickin car hauler.....just do it! What's the worst that can happen?

[DBasher]

Because I really don't know. What was your shop like before you got into the magazines and had the semi? Has it always been full build high end stuff?

[ironworks]

Because I really don't know. What was your shop like before you got into the magazines and had the semi? Has it always been full build high end stuff?

For the most part we have just gotten better with everyday. But the biggest difference is to know how to spot customers that do not understand how much effort it might take to accomplish what they want. I try to talk every new customer into buying a car before even thinking about building one. The build cost adds up so fast I can't even believe it. So learning how to educate new customers and just working with our repeat customers is our main focus. A business has to make money or it's just a tax shelter for some rich guy. Well it's just me trying to support my family and pay my guys as much as I can so they can do the same. After almost 15 years in business a guy better learn some things to improve on.

I have gotten a lot smarter in the past few years. If it does not make money, create business or make my customers happy I sold it.

I'm asking this question to research another possible revenue stream possibility.

[camcojb]

For the most part we have just gotten better with everyday. But the biggest difference is to know how to spot customers that do not understand how much effort it might take to accomplish what they want. I try to talk every new customer into buying a car before even thinking about building one. The build cost adds up so fast I can't even believe it. So learning how to educate new customers and just working with our repeat customers is our main focus. A business has to make money or it's just a tax shelter for some rich guy. Well it's just me trying to support my family and pay my guys as much as I can so they can do the same. After almost 15 years in business a guy better learn some things to improve on.

I have gotten a lot smarter in the past few years. If it does not make money, create business or make my customers happy I sold it.

I'm asking this question to research another possible revenue stream possibility.I think there's a market for a quality car that's safe, sorted out, and fun to drive that isn't $100K+. The biggest problem is duplicating that price point when all the donor cars will have completely different needs to get them to that point.

[ironworks]

I think there's a market for a quality car that's safe, sorted out, and fun to drive that isn't $100K+. The biggest problem is duplicating that price point when all the donor cars will have completely different needs to get them to that point.

Rust and parts availability will be the biggest hurdles.

[camcojb]

Rust and parts availability will be the biggest hurdles.
Exactly. I was thinking of this years ago, but couldn't figure out how to deal with the pricing, when the starting point can (and will) be so different.

[dhutton]

When I used to be on the Corvette forum regularly I noticed that there were guys building and selling high dollar C1 and C2 restomod cars. New frames, LS engines, nice leather interiors and they could sell for quite good money. There seems to be a decent sized pool of buyers for these cars. Might be something worth researching.

Don

[Vince@Meanstreets]

When I used to be on the Corvette forum regularly I noticed that there were guys building and selling high dollar C1 and C2 restomod cars. New frames, LS engines, nice leather interiors and they could sell for quite good money. There seems to be a decent sized pool of buyers for these cars. Might be something worth researching.

Don

Yep, depends on your core clients and demand. The over seas market has been big. But who knows when the big bubble will hit again and demand drops.

Since oil and fuel prices has dropped I have noticed an increase is classic car interest. From 10 calls to 25-30 calls a day since August.

[badazz81z28]

You simply can't make money building PT cars and selling them. The labor and parts always exceeds the cars value. The uneducated always see the outside and don't consider what these cars actually cost.

I'm trying to sell my 1978 Camaro, Highly modded LS engine, Modded TKO, Moser rear, Hotchkis suspension etc..etc. Basically everything short of a new frame and a 4 link. I would say with parts and labor over the years, easy exceeds $25K with me doing most of the work. I have been asking $18K and someone offered me $8K stating "its just a 78 Camaro" they are not worth much. :hairpullout:

I can yank the engine the transmission out right now and get close to $8K for it. The uneducated doesn't see a $10K drivetrain, a $2000 rear end, $2000 suspension, $1500 FI fuel tank, and the $1500 new interior. Your buying the parts and basically getting a free car! I really think that's how most people see these cars and that's what makes them tough to sell at reasonable prices.

Try finding a 11 sec Camaro that gets 20mpg with an interior and handles the corner for $8K

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If it were a 69 Camaro it would have been gone along time ago. Have to move what sells and is in demand.

[Rick D]

Im with Vince on this one, even if it was a 70-73 it would most likely bring the number your asking. Not trying to offened you but it is a "78 Camaro". Theres a ton out there for nothing, yes their junk so thats why people think yours is only worth 8K because it's nice.

I get what you are saying about the parts and I agree most dont get what it cost to build these cars just in parts. They look a ebay and see an LS with 6sp for
4-5K and dont have a clue that you need a couple more grand to make it run in an old car.

I do agree that trying to build "Pro-Touring" cars to make money is not the best idea, i think building more main stream Hot Rods would go over much better? First Gen Camaros for sure but more restomods or just hotrod then our stuff??



EYou simply can't make money building PT cars and selling them. The labor and parts always exceeds the cars value. The uneducated always see the outside and don't consider what these cars actually cost.

I'm trying to sell my 1978 Camaro, Highly modded LS engine, Modded TKO, Moser rear, Hotchkis suspension etc..etc. Basically everything short of a new frame and a 4 link. I would say with parts and labor over the years, easy exceeds $25K with me doing most of the work. I have been asking $18K and someone offered me $8K stating "its just a 78 Camaro" they are not worth much. :hairpullout:

I can yank the engine the transmission out right now and get close to $8K for it. The uneducated doesn't see a $10K drivetrain, a $2000 rear end, $2000 suspension, $1500 FI fuel tank, and the $1500 new interior. Your buying the parts and basically getting a free car! I really think that's how most people see these cars and that's what makes them tough to sell at reasonable prices.

Try finding a 11 sec Camaro that gets 20mpg with an interior and handles the corner for $8K

If it were a 69 Camaro it would have been gone along time ago. Have to move what sells and is in demand.

[rustomatic]

This is an interesting topic. The reality is that nobody, informed or not, even wants to look under a car, regardless of what they pretend to find "interesting."

As an example, while I avoid car shows like the plague (they piss me off, as they're potential, not kinetic), the occasional one I do attend will almost never include someone other than myself who looks under cars. Same goes for the autocrosses and track days I've been to. You've got tons of great performing cars (most of which also look pretty cool), and people who think they're great, but does their curiosity ever extend to seeing what the hell is making it work? Nope.

What sells is paint. Open the hood and show somebody a fuel injection; it does not matter if it's an LS or a TPI from an IROC. Put some PT-style wheels on, and you're golden.

[badazz81z28]

If it were a 69 Camaro it would have been gone along time ago. Have to move what sells and is in demand.

That's mostly the reason why the LS is going in my 70, and the rest will be parted out. I can make some reasonable money that way. A 1970-73 Camaro in the condition of my 78 I feel could sell easily for $30K, but I guess in another 20 years, it might be there.


BTW, I really like the 1st gens, but I will never own one because they are just so common.

[Build-It-Break-it]

BTW, I really like the 1st gens, but I will never own one because they are just so common.

I don't think most people don't fix up a 1st Gen because they're "common" I think it's more there price. It's an iconic car just like an early mustang. To buy a first Gen camaro in poor condition is still going to eat up a lot of most people's budget. It's easier to find a less desirable car and fix up and put money into go fast parts.

But the downside to that is you have a less desirable car with expensive parts that's less likely to sell,case in point the 78 camaro with 18k in parts in post 32.

For 18-25k I'd rather find my own 78 Camaro if that's what I really wanted and put my own twist on it and not buy someone else vision. Less desirable build/car = loose money on the build or keep it.

[badazz81z28]

I don't think most people don't fix up a 1st Gen because they're "common" I think it's more there price. It's an iconic car just like an early mustang. To buy a first Gen camaro in poor condition is still going to eat up a lot of most people's budget. It's easier to find a less desirable car and fix up and put money into go fast parts.

But the downside to that is you have a less desirable car with expensive parts that's less likely to sell,case in point the 78 camaro with 18k in parts in post 32.

For 18-25k I'd rather find my own 78 Camaro if that's what I really wanted and put my own twist on it and not buy someone else vision. Less desirable build/car = loose money on the build or keep it.


No, that's why I don't want one. People like certain cars for their own reasons.

A car built with my vision is no different than any other car. That's why I bought my '70 totally stock versus one already done.

[CamaroMike]

BTW, I really like the 1st gens, but I will never own one because they are just so common.

I have only seen one on the street in the past year

[CamaroMike]

When I was in the market for my 69 and 78 I just wanted something that didnt need paint work or extensive metal. They need metal here and there but its in places that I wont have to repaint the exterior and I can do myself. Pretty much start with a solid stock car, I can spend my time and money doing fun stuff like engine, suspension, brakes.

In the long run it might cost a little more doing it my way but I can use the exact parts I want instead of buying someone else's car.

Its all about what someone is willing to pay. I have seen amazing deals sit for months because they were a weird color or something.

[badazz81z28]

I have only seen one on the street in the past year

Mike, When was the last time you saw a 1978 Camaro on the road (that wasn't yours). I live in So Cal, and I have only seen a couple in 3 years I have been there. BUT, when I go to the car shows in particular recently Hot August nights, tons and tons of 67-69 Camaros. Literally ZERO 1974-81 Camaros and only 5 or so 70-73s and I was there all week.

[Tom.A]

In my opinion 45-60K first gen Camaro would be a good seller. Most people don't understand 14" rotors or adjustable shocks much less ever drive the car to that level. Some at this site here understand the value but if they are here chances are they are building something already. Many of us can buy the $1500 part here or there over years..others here can just write a check.
You want the 50 something guy returning to his glory days with extra :G-Dub: who needs instant gratification.

1) Decent paint,
2) Nice wheels with correct stance
3) mini tub is worth it imo. They just look way cooler. Sorry but a 275 on a Camaro in back just is not as cool as a 315/335 set up.
4) Nice thumping cam is likely a good choice also.

I still think many would sell in the above range even with old school SBC with EFI.

Badazz28, I am in Southern Ca. also and I think the smog laws are why you don't see that era of Camaro on the road. It is just a hassle and no one wants to stick with 170 HP V8 came with.

Rodger,

I agree I have also seen some good deals out there but we must remember many are slapped together turn and burn cars.

One thing I know is that if I would have put the same amount of time/money that I put into my chevelle into a first gen Camaro I could sell it for far more $$. Building a PT car will pigeon hole you. My car is fully caged no a/c or heater. No radio and frankly not ideal cruiser for those reasons. It is LS3 powered and I could drive it anywhere and trust it but it is not relaxing. I could change it back but why don't you buy it and work your quick magic since I have little time for it.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/RTTC3ElToro.jpg

[Spiffav8]

My car is fully caged no a/c or heater. No radio and frankly not ideal cruiser for those reasons. It is LS3 powered and I could drive it anywhere and trust it but it is not relaxing.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/RTTC3ElToro.jpg

Tom! Long time no see brother!!

Yeah that bad boy may have a full cage, no a/c, heater or radio... but it's a lot of fun!! Some of the best autocross lap at RTTC2!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Tom.A]

Tom! Long time no see brother!!

Yeah that bad boy may have a full cage, no a/c, heater or radio... but it's a lot of fun!! Some of the best autocross lap at RTTC2!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks Curtis. I have been watching your round two build and it looks good:thumbsup:

[ironworks]

In my opinion 45-60K first gen Camaro would be a good seller. Most people don't understand 14" rotors or adjustable shocks much less ever drive the car to that level. Some at this site here understand the value but if they are here chances are they are building something already. Many of us can buy the $1500 part here or there over years..others here can just write a check.
You want the 50 something guy returning to his glory days with extra :G-Dub: who needs instant gratification.

1) Decent paint,
2) Nice wheels with correct stance
3) mini tub is worth it imo. They just look way cooler. Sorry but a 275 on a Camaro in back just is not as cool as a 315/335 set up.
4) Nice thumping cam is likely a good choice also.

I still think many would sell in the above range even with old school SBC with EFI.

Badazz28, I am in Southern Ca. also and I think the smog laws are why you don't see that era of Camaro on the road. It is just a hassle and no one wants to stick with 170 HP V8 came with.

Rodger,

I agree I have also seen some good deals out there but we must remember many are slapped together turn and burn cars.

One thing I know is that if I would have put the same amount of time/money that I put into my chevelle into a first gen Camaro I could sell it for far more $$. Building a PT car will pigeon hole you. My car is fully caged no a/c or heater. No radio and frankly not ideal cruiser for those reasons. It is LS3 powered and I could drive it anywhere and trust it but it is not relaxing. I could change it back but why don't you buy it and work your quick magic since I have little time for it.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/RTTC3ElToro.jpg


Your awesome 68 Chevelle is really built to a narrow market. Same with my 67 Camaro a few years ago. It will be a great, reliable car for someone who wants to up their game in the road coarse, auto cross events. But the MAJORITY of people want AC and a soft interior. You could probably get a good amount more if it was a 70 Chevelle, just reality. I also have what might be the most rust free solid 1969 Chevelle I picked up a few years ago. I keep thinking it Could be a money maker, bolt on suspension, and a really basic car, that just looks really good, but I'm not convinced that is a sure thing. That would be a better project for me to sell as a project.

A few weeks ago I found a Craigslist ad for 1967 camaro that the seller said was rust free. I called him and he said it was and he was firm on the price of 5k for the body with doors. So one Sunday morning I drove 2 hours out to the desert and sure enough it was 100% rust free. I bought it and the C-10 truck parked next to it. 20 minutes after loading up and heading home I got a call from one of our great customers and he asked if the car was a nice as it was supposed to be, I said maybe better. He bought the car on the right then now wants me to try and get and LT1 from Chevrolet. I got a left over subframe from a customer to make it a roller and she is in dry storage down the street now until her time comes. You have to buy the deals when you find them.

If the money is made on the buy I also think its made in the game plan to sell. If you over build the car, your just pissing away the gain to give away to the next owner. You have to figure out the best way to sell the car.

I'm still not convinced mini tubs justify the expense to install on a 60k or less car.

[Blake Foster]

I just sold the Nova. I had it a Russo Steel in Jan and the bidding stalled at about 34,000. well I can tell you THAT AIN"T ENOUGH. it was one of those things I didn't need to sell it but wanted to do something else. it didn't sell. I had it advertised on ebay for a while at 75,000( that was about the sum of the parts at my cost) thought that was fair.... had a couple calls. then a guy from Sydney AU called said he wanted the car wired over a deposit and a week later came to drive it and paid the balance and drove it to LA and put it on a boat, I ended up at 65,000. lower than I thought it was worth, but after 3 different offers at about the same price ( I turned down 2 of them) I figured that was what the market was in that car.

I am certainly NOT the guy to ask "what is it worth" I am not the car selling guy. I hate buying them and don't often sell them. just not my gig some guys seem to have hours to scan the classifieds and what not to find the deal. but then we have had some of those "DEAL" come into the shop, trust me NO DEAL. in my opinion they are cheap for a reason, their junk, or on the slim chance you catch someone who needs to bail you can maybe get a deal, that won't be me lol

[camcojb]

I'm still not convinced mini tubs justify the expense to install on a 60k or less car.
From the years on this site and the amount of feedback I've had in that time, I would say being minitubbed is a very big selling point on a $60K protouring style car. I have seen cars without tubs that are very competitive at these events, and look and drive awesome. But IMO, if that's the price point you're looking at I think it'll be a mistake to not do a minitub.

[dhutton]

I was at one time thinking of doing something similar on a smaller scale when I retire. My friend in the classic car business advised me to focus on 69 Camaros exclusively. They are the money makers (if there is money to be made). Not even 67 and 68.

Don

[MaxHarvard]

From the years on this site and the amount of feedback I've had in that time, I would say being minitubbed is a very big selling point on a $60K protouring style car. I have seen cars without tubs that are very competitive at these events, and look and drive awesome. But IMO, if that's the price point you're looking at I think it'll be a mistake to not do a minitub.



Minitubs are one of those things that if you can do it yourself, cost very little but raise the price considerably. The mini tub itself is relatively cheap... Lots of time and some inner tubs.

Also, consider all that needs to be changed to do a mini tub... rear end, suspension, tires/wheels, brakes... It's a hell of an investment.

[camcojb]

Minitubs are one of those things that if you can do it yourself, cost very little but raise the price considerably. The mini tub itself is relatively cheap... Lots of time and some inner tubs.

Also, consider all that needs to be changed to do a mini tub... rear end, suspension, tires/wheels, brakes... It's a hell of an investment.
My opinion is at $60K you expect to see the minitubs, and the work and cost to change it over if they're not done is an issue. Cheaper to do it initially so you're not buying duplicate tires/wheels/rear suspension, etc.

[GregWeld]

Personally - I'd rather read Investing 102 and put my money into dividend paying stocks that cash flow every quarter... they pay for my HOBBY which are what cars are. LOL

[MaxHarvard]

My opinion is at $60K you expect to see the minitubs, and the work and cost to change it over if they're not done is an issue. Cheaper to do it initially so you're not buying duplicate tires/wheels/rear suspension, etc.



Yep, I think we are in agreement here :)

[hp2]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

[MaxHarvard]

Personally - I'd rather read Investing 102 and put my money into dividend paying stocks that cash flow every quarter... they pay for my HOBBY which are what cars are. LOL

I'll take any and all stock tips you've got!!

[GregWeld]

I'll take any and all stock tips you've got!!




Buy good businesses and hold

[96z28ss]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.

[GregWeld]

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


And the more I think about the idea of trying to find a good "donor" -- build it - and then try to turn a profit on it... probably only really works for the home hobiest whose labor is free - working out of his "free" garage.

[dhutton]

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


And the more I think about the idea of trying to find a good "donor" -- build it - and then try to turn a profit on it... probably only really works for the home hobiest whose labor is free - working out of his "free" garage.

This is what I was considering. I would like to continue to wrench on cars when I retire and this seemed like something that might work. I don't need to make a huge profit. I just want to keep busy doing what I enjoy. Biggest hurdle so far is finding reasonably decent project cars. They are snapped up quickly in this part of the country.

Don

[ironworks]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.


You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

[ArisESQ]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

[MaxHarvard]

Buy good businesses and hold

... I'm listening...

[hp2]

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.
You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

Nobody said depreciation was a factor in this. However if it is, then what percentage of depreciate occurs when a stock 1st gen is highly modified with cut and weld changes that cannot be easily returned to stock? Does it depreciate, does it appreciate? Based on what I see on auction shows, the stock and resto-mod group seems will to pay appreciation. The highly modified jury is still 50/50.


I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


Hobby is a very good point, but again, the original question was value placed on sale as a means of business so someone can make a living building cars they love and still feed their family. I'd love to make $100k a year building stuff like my own junk, but the odds of that happening are about the same as me becoming a rock star. The hobby means different things to different people, some of whom the owning and not necessarily the working is the hobby.

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

[ArisESQ]

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.


I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Coach builders like Singer (http://singervehicledesign.com/) have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

The return is 40 to 50 cents on the dollar on a turn key car. The more you spend initially the lower the return. There are exceptions to that....

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Yep, that is what keeps the shops in business.

Coach builders like Singer (http://singervehicledesign.com/) have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

Now we get into the exceptions, a car built by Stielow (or any other big name) carries some pedigree, there is a value in a particular name being attached to a build. Warning: fictional numbers used for the sake of conversation ahead......Stielow"s Hellfire may bring may bring 300K at an auction like BJ, Donny's Belltire, identically equipped may do half that.

Setting aside the fact that I can't actually write a check that large, I would gladly pay 200K for a car build that is _exactly_ what I want but would never pay near that for a car that was _exactly_ what another individual wanted. Weld can relate I think, you can buy a '40 pickup done pretty nicely for 50K, a friend just bough one in primer, running and driving but needing work for under 15K.......but it wouldn't be Greg's truck and wouldn't be the way he wants.

Back to the OP, the only mod that pays you back is air conditioning. Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[chichirone]

[QUOTE=ironworks;572280]But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

I believe that people look for the most they can find for the least amount of cash required to obtain it. The examples you provided are terrific samples of the cars and market prices people can acquire, but I feel your question is a bit loaded. I would be asking how big the market actually is for pro-touring cars. Search "pro-touring" in the search line on fleabay and you get a $250k fully customized g-machine to a completely stock 1st gen Camaro in the mid-twenties. The best part is, of the thousands of cars on the site, only 20-40 show up with the pro-touring moniker. The buyers market is very thin for the cars we have in this hobby.

Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another?

NO...I do not believe most people have a clue about different MFG's and those that do, recognize the value of the parts AND the way they work. We are talking a very small sliver of the market will pay more for the suspensions we bolt on or are custom made. I definitely would (and have) paid more but I am a realist and know that the average buyer is not going to have a clue. What may open the market a little more is knowing it has a 4-link, Watts, 3-link or other suspension type versus leaf springs.

Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install? NO...there is not a HIGH resale value of a PT car. And NO there is not a high resale value for labor. The ride and feel of the car with no rattles or squeaks will tho. That will recoup a greater percentage of the parts cost, kind of like Blake mentioned in his response.

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

More than one with a crappy stance. HA! Sorry for the sarcasm. Look at the dealers and guys that buy and resell a lot on CL and eBay. Tires, wheels, dropped leafs with lowering blocks, a shiny car wash and a chick in the picture. Their cars are always $5-10k more than the same version with stock wheels and stance. My dad always told me if you want to sell your car, go buy some chrome wheels. Wheels make the car more than any other modification IMO.

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car?

YES...This is becoming more mainstream. Big tires are more attractive than other mods. There is a mini tubbed 69 Camaro leaf sprung car with 345's for sale locally for $65k. Other than that, it's a carbureted sbc, 4-speed, with a stock houndstooth interior and clone baldwin motion paint job and stock suspension.

Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower? Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

Yes, to those that know what the brand name is and how much horsepower is "bigger horsepower". Again, a very small sliver of the market pays attention to this. On this site we see 1000+ hp builds. On the street, 500hp is a shocker to many people. A guy with a 268hp Camry is going to sh*t himself with an LS3 5th gen Camaro SS. It's all relative. I think FI versus carbureted is more attractive to buyers in todays market.

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Start with the same brand and models of the cars we see getting built on this site. Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles, Novas, etc...Add a little lipstick and rouge, drop in an LS or EFI SB or BB with a 5 or 6 speed or modern automatic, lower the stance a little with some coil overs and turn them quick. If you can sell 15-20 cars a month with an average profit of $3-5k, you can make a little bit of money Gas Monkey Garage style. Target price is $35-50k. I agree with Greg tho, if you want to make a profit, go elsewhere. Investing 102.

This is a great thread. Really makes one think about our hobby and the cars we love. No wonder only 3 people showed interest in either of my cars when they were on the cars for sale page.

[carbuff]

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm?lot_id=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...

[Build-It-Break-it]

Wow that is an extreme kick to the wallet.

I think that maybe people are scared to pay top dollar due to depreciation value. What's cool today may not be so cool in ten years. Mini trucks were OK when they first came out but are they cool now? Not so much.

I'm personally building a "pro touring" car for myself but I'm building it for myself. If your building these cars with high end aftermarket parts trying to make top dollar then you haven't done your research. Most people at auctions pay for nostalgia and properly build stock /restomod cars at auctions, not highly modified ones.

You have to take your personality out of how you build cars to resell and build what EVERYONE can relate to at auction, young and older crowd.

[GregWeld]

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm?lot_id=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...



Was this the "Mobile Closing Office" built by AllSpeed??? If so I remember the build and seeing it at OUSCI... the 87K paid was too much.

[carbuff]

Was this the "Mobile Closing Office" built by AllSpeed??? If so I remember the build and seeing it at OUSCI... the 87K paid was too much.

That was the one. And ouch again... Didn't realize that was the case. The car certainly appeared to have a lot of time/work in it...

[ArisESQ]

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm?lot_id=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...


I think that car is a good representation of something that is "too custom" for most people. I'd be willing to be that it would have fetched more in relation to it's build cost if it looked mostly stock, or "OEM," like Steilow's cars.

I think the other thing that's going to bring in a consistently higher selling price is uniformity in the build. By that I mean that the builder has built more than one similar car, and has "sorted out" the problem areas. I suspect that most buyers of high end cars would feel a lot more comfortable spending a large sum of money when they see a builder can "manufacturer" a small volume of vehicles that meet a uniform standard of quality.

By the way - I am in no way suggesting that the Firebird in that link is not a high quality build. I can tell that a lot of effort went into making a beautiful car... I just think it's too specifically built to appeal to a broad market.

Compare that Firebird above with the Year One Burt Reynolds Edition
(http://ghostworks.yearone.com/the-burt-reynolds-edition-trans-am/) Buyers seem to be willing to pay more when they can buy a turn key car as a package, without having to worry about all the details associated with customizing the build - especially when they know other people are buying a similarly built car. I think it just comes down to perceived reliability.

So like I said before - I think if someone could figure out how to assembly line a first or second gen with minitubs, an LS3, AC, disc brakes, decent wheels, and a nicely upgraded leather interior that looks relatively OEM, I think they'd be able to command a higher price than what most of the customs have been going for at Barrett Jackson.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I think that car is a good representation of something that is "too custom" for most people. I'd be willing to be that it would have fetched more in relation to it's build cost if it looked mostly stock, or "OEM," like Steilow's cars.

I think the other thing that's going to bring in a consistently higher selling price is uniformity in the build. By that I mean that the builder has built more than one similar car, and has "sorted out" the problem areas. I suspect that most buyers of high end cars would feel a lot more comfortable spending a large sum of money when they see a builder can "manufacturer" a small volume of vehicles that meet a uniform standard of quality.

By the way - I am in no way suggesting that the Firebird in that link is not a high quality build. I can tell that a lot of effort went into making a beautiful car... I just think it's too specifically built to appeal to a broad market.

Compare that Firebird above with the Year One Burt Reynolds Edition
(http://ghostworks.yearone.com/the-burt-reynolds-edition-trans-am/) Buyers seem to be willing to pay more when they can buy a turn key car as a package, without having to worry about all the details associated with customizing the build - especially when they know other people are buying a similarly built car. I think it just comes down to perceived reliability.

So like I said before - I think if someone could figure out how to assembly line a first or second gen with minitubs, an LS3, AC, disc brakes, decent wheels, and a nicely upgraded leather interior that looks relatively OEM, I think they'd be able to command a higher price than what most of the customs have been going for at Barrett Jackson.

Mike puts out a lot of ready to build bodies. Not sure how fast they move though.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=47315

Similar to the adopt a project I have at the shop. But the body and title cost depends on how much was spent on the rehab to get it to a straight rust free body. The customer then has the choice have us build it or bring it home for a garage project.

We also locate cars for clients.

[tazzz2_ca]

The whole idea of selling a highly modified Pro-touring at auction is surely a questionable deal.. Outside of certain custom builders that bring a providence to the build immediately, the average person selling one of these cars in that format is setting himself up for failure... The auction houses make their money moving the maximum amount of nice cars through the block and can't take the time to really describe and as been stated educate the consumer on what they are buying...

It would appear the market is settled into the 30-45 range, the 55-75 range and the boutique truly custom build group that varies dramatically... Like all other forms of cars sales the market becomes small as you grow the costs. We all fall in love with the high end stuff because face it we're car buffs or we wouldn't be reading this..

As far as augmenting revenues, tough call and certainly on a car by bassis to say the least... I feel there is a possible new area that may offer opportunity and that is selling rollers that require the new owner to select the rims, and having them deal with basic interior install and pre-thought out wiring options (ie an American auto wire setup with pre anticipated Auto Meter gauges.. pick your own style from their offering but the harness and gauges are basically plug and play).. This will allow buyers the ability to stagger their spending, do some of the labor and end up with a nice car to their taste in the end...

[ModernMuseum]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

ZL-1's are lame.

69 Camaros are awesome.

End of story :action-smiley-027:

[Sheck44]

ZL-1's are lame.

69 Camaros are awesome.

End of story :action-smiley-027:

WELL SAID !! and ...
ZL1 $55K today ... worth $40K tomorrow
Well executed PT 69 camaro $$$ today = $$$ same tomorrow ... :idea:

[Rick D]

As far as augmenting revenues, tough call and certainly on a car by bassis to say the least... I feel there is a possible new area that may offer opportunity and that is selling rollers that require the new owner to select the rims, and having them deal with basic interior install and pre-thought out wiring options (ie an American auto wire setup with pre anticipated Auto Meter gauges.. pick your own style from their offering but the harness and gauges are basically plug and play).. This will allow buyers the ability to stagger their spending, do some of the labor and end up with a nice car to their taste in the end...

I've looked at doing this in the past and I agree Albert there is a market for this but its a hard market.

I biggest issue I found was the masses don't really know what it really cost just for "new" sheet metal let alone the cost to install it. I've done body work on cars for 10k with no special fab work, I've done paint jobs for 20K on clean cars with minimal body work. I've done quicky paint and body for 5K (not in years at that price :D)

I had a friend ask me the other day what I thought of a 69 Camaro on flebay and I almost fell out of my chair, total junk needing EVERY panel replaced and was mostly a shell. No glass, no trim to speak of nothing but a shell! The bidding was at 5K with a couple of days to go.

Now yes I know its a 69 Camaro, and it will bring more money then most any other car like it but when you compare a 69 Chevelle that is mostly complete glass is there, trim is there, the small stuff that adds up fast. It need most likely new fenders and qtrs, and? It sells for 4K, it's hard to see that 69 Chevelle finished as a painted roller, and sell for??? The qtrs still have to be bought and installed, they still need the same amount of work to get them to fit as the Camaro. But the Camaro will sell way faster and bring 20-30% more but still needs 20-30% more to finish it?

Its tough but the only ones I see making any money are the "flipers" on these cars. :underchair: sorry I know we all hate the flipper but thats where the money is, fix a few things, a patch here a new set of shinny wheels and bam you have 3-5K profit. Not a bad days work.

Thats the other thing that makes drives me crazy, when did "profit" become such a dirty word?? It's crazy but some guys think "WOW"I'm going to make some money on what I do for them :innocent:

Thoughts??

[BMR Sales]

Profit has gotten a Bad Name - people forget that if companies don't make a Profit, they go out of Business.

Flippers get a Bad rep too. I flip a car or 2 a year. Sometimes it takes months of work on a car before it even is listed For sale. Then you have to deal with the Idiot potential Buyers

[preston]

Another factor that hasn't been brought up - let's face it, for a large majority of people that like these cars, the build is most of the fun. Dreaming about what it will look like, picking out parts, making choices. That's why you see these massive 3-5 year projects taht get sold 1 year later, the owner wants to "build" something else. I don't have any insight into the market, but I think the posts above might be on to something - prepping shells and rollers that a normal guy can then take home and build into something. That is the hardest part of the project, getting the initial car and dealing with all the bornig (and specialized skill and tool) stuff like replacing rust and panels. I think a lot of car guys would love to build an old car if they only had to deal with wiring, engine setup, wheels, suspensino bolt ons and stuff.

But I still don't think there is a lot of money to be made there. Look at the body advertised above - $24k for a roller. That's gonna always seem like a big step in price.

[69hugger]

But then you have "experienced" (older) guys like me that have fiddled with cars for years, but have always been too thrifty for anything "really nice".
I had a pretty nice '69 Camaro for 17 years, big block/ nitrous, etc... a mid 11 second streeter. But I got bored because it had a 40 mile radius of comfortable driving. I didn't like to sit at shows all weekend, and what else do you do with it? So I sold it & bought a C-6 Z-06. Fun car, but really pretty boring too. It was fast, but didn't FEEL fast. Got tired of the various expenses (License fees, insurance, & depreciation) of owning that type of car & not driving it much. And it wasn't welcome at most shows & cruises. So I sold that too.
I decided a needed a comfortable old muscle car. Wasn't interested in spending 2 or 3 years building my own, so I went looking at Barrett-Jackson. I looked at quite a few cars, & every one was not quite right. Then I saw the car I bought & just had to have it. I spent a pretty penny, but got a car that would cost close to twice to build as what I spent. It was exactly to my taste, and had all kinds of jewelry, stuff I would never spend the money for. (i.e. $500 hood hinges-- are you kidding me?) It was built largely at DSE, and I figured that provenance was worth some extra dough.
So, I got a car I think is pretty great, got it immediately, and couldn't duplicate for what I spent.
Some of us don't have the patience, discipline, vision, or talent to build a high end car ourselves. But I CAN maintain, update, and enjoy the heck out of it. And in another year or so, it will FEEL like my own car.
Just my story, but I don't think I'm the only one.

[ErikLS2]

I'm not a buyer, just found this surfing, curious what you guys think this thing really is worth? And "Pro Touring"? With SBC, leafs and drum brakes, really?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/4728786080.html

[ArisESQ]

I'm not a buyer, just found this surfing, curious what you guys think this thing really is worth? And "Pro Touring"? With SBC, leafs and drum brakes, really?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/4728786080.html

You forgot to mention the NASCAR LOOKING ENGINE.

Sounds like it could be an OK car. Definitely not worth that much money though... I guess most people just assume pro-touring = lowered with 17" wheels.

[Bryan O]

Hey Erik. That car's at Pinnacle Peak and the 17. The sellers website says rides can be requested. Maybe we should go over there and see how that NASCAR engine performs. :lol:

[blackhawkip]

I just read through this forum and thought I'd post a question to the group of guys who have contributed. I have been building my 1972 Camaro RS Z28 (original Z28 RS, 4 spd car) for the past seven years. It needed EVERYTHING when I bought it and it was almost past the point of restoring. It didn't have a motor, trans, or drivetrain and I replaced all the panels with NOS parts with the exception of the doors which are original.
My inspiration was Dale Jr's car but wanted to keep the Z28 exterior look and keep an original 72 color combination. It has the following:

DSE quadralink rear
DSE mini-tub
DSE coil over front
13" Baer Track brakes front and rear
Fikse 18x8; 18x12 wheels
DSE steering
Ford 9"; Strange Posi rear end
Rotisserie built and detailed
etc, etc

The paint turned out near perfect, gaps are correct, and stance is right. Due to the cost, I wasn't concerned about the time to complete it. Every two years I complete a stage, save up more $, then do another.

My next step is the wiring, brake lines, glass, and interior. My last step will be motor and trans. Yes, I know this is backwards but the engine/trans are always changing so didn't want to mock up something that would be outdated by the time I completed the build. I am looking to finish it in four years.

Interior will be built using a stock dash, Dakota VHX gauges, and Recaro M Seats in black leather with black wool carpet. It will be black with stainless highlights. Nothing gaudy or flashy. It will have Marquez Design door panels, some Anvil carbon fiber, and Fesler anodized aluminum throughout the build.

Transmission will be a TKO 500 5 spd, since I am not going to modify the tunnel to fit anything else. The engine picture is the look I am going for in the car. It is NOT mine, if it's yours, sorry for stealing it:)

With a fuel injected LSX 454 what is this car worth on the market today completed to the same standards showing on the car currently? $50K? $75K? $100K? I'll be in it at the high end obviously, but will it's pedigree help?

[waynieZ]

I can't give you a value but, that's a pretty car!

[dhutton]

LSX454 and a TKO500 is an odd combo and it may hurt the value. I would rethink that. Beautiful car.

Don

[blackhawkip]

Thanks....why the "odd combo"? Not a sarcastic question. The TKO500 perfect fit is the only transmission that will fit without modification to the tunnel unless I am unaware of something else out there. I am open to recommendations.

Thoughts?

LSX454 and a TKO500 is an odd combo and it may hurt the value. I would rethink that. Beautiful car.


Don

[MtotheIKEo]

Thanks....why the "odd combo"? Not a sarcastic question.

The motor should make way more power than the trans can handle, so your essentially building the car with a weak link.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

LSX454 and a TKO500 is an odd combo and it may hurt the value. I would rethink that. Beautiful car.

Don

Thanks....why the "odd combo"? Not a sarcastic question. The TKO500 perfect fit is the only transmission that will fit without modification to the tunnel unless I am unaware of something else out there. I am open to recommendations.

Thoughts?

The motor should make way more power than the trans can handle, so your essentially building the car with a weak link.

That engine is going scream for a T56, also don't use a chromed out swap meet booster and master cylinder, it really detracts from the jewel. Details are nice other wise.

pedigree doesnt mean a thing without the correct engine and trans. Instead of the LS454 it would be cool if you can build up a new LT1.

[71RS/SS396]

Thanks....why the "odd combo"? Not a sarcastic question. The TKO500 perfect fit is the only transmission that will fit without modification to the tunnel unless I am unaware of something else out there. I am open to recommendations.

Thoughts?

The tko's shift like a dump truck and really don't like high rpm 2-3 shifts. I also wouldn't use any iron block in a car I wanted to turn well, you're adding a 100 pounds to the nose of the car that's not necessary. I would pick an LS7 over the 454.

[blackhawkip]

Agreed, I will be doing black anodized front runner and DSE brake booster/MC. No chrome for me; not bad, but just not my taste.

[QUOTE=Vince@MSperfab;618878]That engine is going scream for a T56, also don't use a chromed out swap meet booster and master cylinder, it really detracts from the jewel. Details are nice other wise.

[blackhawkip]

The tko's shift like a dump truck and really don't like high rpm 2-3 shifts.

What other options are there for a trans with overdrive that will handle 600hp and I won't have to cut the tunnel?

[dhutton]

What other options are there for a trans with overdrive that will handle 600hp and I won't have to cut the tunnel?

Silver Sport LGT-700?

I thought the LSX454 was targeted at drag racing. Not sure why you selected it aside from displacement....

Don

[BonzoHansen]

Im lost on unwillingness to cut for a t56 but you cut for minitubs. Is it just because the paint work is done?

[Vega$69]

What other options are there for a trans with overdrive that will handle 600hp and I won't have to cut the tunnel?

I've run TKO 500s, 600s and a T56. Never any shifting issues.

For the LSX I would go TKO600 over the 500. Ran one in a ZZ502 in a 67 Camaro. No cutting involves that I'm aware of.

Also the iron block is fine. you'll never even notice the extra 100 lbs.

[ironworks]

I would never put a TKO 500 or 600 in some thing you want to shift fast with any kind of horsepower. They just don't shift as smooth as a t56. We are building a 35 Chevy in the shop with a 350hp small block and we installed a Mcleod 5 speed to give it a try. But we have no intentions of anything more then a few burnouts.

If you really going to try and be competitive with the car the aluminum block is a huge gain over that very heavy cast block.

[Vegas69]

:yes: T56 mag vs.TKO. Indoor vs. Outdoor plumbing.

[Vega$69]

:yes: T56 mag vs.TKO. Indoor vs. Outdoor plumbing.

I agree however the T56 is going to require a tunnel mod which he dies the want to do.

[blackhawkip]

Im lost on unwillingness to cut for a t56 but you cut for minitubs. Is it just because the paint work is done?

I ended up putting in a new floor in it since the previous owner had done a hack job on the original tunnel. I spent a small fortune on the bodywork and NOS panels so hate to cut it up.
I do not intend on this being a track car. I plan on doing power tours, drive it to events, and have a car that is enjoyable and comfortable to drive. With this in mind, what combination of motor/trans would be ideal? I am conscientious of return on investment so an LS motor is a must.

[Vegas69]

If built my car over again, the first change on the list would be slicing the tunnel and a 56mag. I was never happy with the tko. It's cheaper to do it right once.

[TheJDMan]

My 1st choice of transmissions would be a T56 Magnum but it might require a tunnel mod. If a tunnel mod is not an option then the 2nd choice would be the LGT-700 5 speed. 3rd on the list would be a TKO 600. I don't think Tremec even makes the TKO 500 any more since it is not listed on their site.

[blackhawkip]

My 1st choice of transmissions would be a T56 Magnum but it might require a tunnel mod. If a tunnel mod is not an option then the 2nd choice would be the LGT-700 5 speed. 3rd on the list would be a TKO 600. I don't think Tremec even makes the TKO 500 any more since it is not listed on their site.

Thanks for the opinion and ranking of the transmissions. I am going to look closer at the T56 and specifics on what it will take to install it. I read a Super Chevy article on installing it in a 2nd Gen Camaro and but it didn't go into details on the modification required.

[blackhawkip]

If built my car over again, the first change on the list would be slicing the tunnel and a 56mag. I was never happy with the tko. It's cheaper to do it right once.

Thanks of the input. How about the T56 Magnum with the LSX 454? Good combination? What engine are you running? What recommendation would you give for the motor?

[CarlC]

When done correctly modifying the transmission tunnel will not be noticeable to 99.999% of potential buyers. It will however correct driveline vibrations that will sink the value of the car.

From a resale standpoint the T56 should havery more appeal than most any other manual transmission.

[Vega$69]

Thanks of the input. How about the T56 Magnum with the LSX 454? Good combination? What engine are you running? What recommendation would you give for the motor?

Unless you're planning stroking bigger, I'd stick with the alum block engines. Plus the LSX is dang expensive and weighs about 130# more

[Solid LT1]

Why do people even consider the LSX it's a BOAT ANCHOR! The block is 260LBS there is nothing "pro touring" about a heavy cast iron lump in the engine compartment:lostmarbles:

[Solid LT1]

Your Pro Touring a legitimate 4speed1972 RS Z28? That's a pretty rare beast and if it is orange/black that's a primo color........I'd find a appreciative buyer and look for a RS donor if that's the body style you want........there were probably fewer than 500 RS 72 Z28s built.

[blackhawkip]

Your Pro Touring a legitimate 4speed1972 RS Z28? That's a pretty rare beast and if it is orange/black that's a primo color........I'd find a appreciative buyer and look for a RS donor if that's the body style you want........there were probably fewer than 500 RS 72 Z28s built.

It is one of 2575 built Z28s in 72', and you are right, there were estimated less than 500 RS's built that year. I have the Protect-O-Plate plate, two build sheets I found under the original carpet, but it was sequoia green w/white stripes and green interior.

I debated for years to restore or modify, but without the original drivetrain it didn't make financial sense to restore to original. It would never be #s matching the purist seek and expect.

[sd67]

Having an LSX 454 does not "disqualify" anyone from having a protouring car. If he wants that motor then I think it's an excellent choice for resale. A good portion of people that buy these cars will never see serious track time anyway. There are plenty of pro touring cars out there with iron blocks. That extra 130 pounds just means that my wife can't ride in the car with me on the track!