1970-81 DSE Frame "Extras"

[badazz81z28]

I bought a DSE frame, but it appears the motor mounts and steering shaft are sold separately. Being these don't come with the frame, are there better/cheaper components to use? $600 for motor mounts and a shaft seems kind pricey considering the coin dropped on the frame.

[Che70velle]

There is a set of DSE set back mounts for sale over in the classifieds, for like $40.00 shipped. Not sure if these mounts fit your year sub, or if there's even a difference.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

steering shaft stuff you can get from summit/coleman/speedway

[badazz81z28]

steering shaft stuff you can get from summit/coleman/speedway

Vince do you have any direct points to part #s?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Vince do you have any direct points to part #s?

I do at the shop. The shaft is cut to fit.
I'll hit you up Tuesday. What steering column do you have?
Vince

[badazz81z28]

I do at the shop. The shaft is cut to fit.
I'll hit you up Tuesday. What steering column do you have?
Vince

Vince, I'm not sure. Stock 1970 Camaro/non-tilt

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Vince, I'm not sure. Stock 1970 Camaro/non-tilt

ok, i'll send you info tuesday.

[71RS/SS396]

The first gen and second gen engine mount kits are different, make sure you get the correct one.

[badazz81z28]

Is DSE the only choice for mounts on their frame?

[71RS/SS396]

Is DSE the only choice for mounts on their frame?

Yes, unless you want to start fabbing something. The second gen frame stands are really far back on the crossmember, it actually positions the urethane mount behind the crossmember.

[badazz81z28]

Yes, unless you want to start fabbing something. The second gen frame stands are really far back on the crossmember, it actually positions the urethane mount behind the crossmember.

hmm...I surprised the frame doesn't come with them if that's the case. $7750 frame, engine mounts not included, but required lol. :G-Dub:

[71RS/SS396]

They will be other trinkets you'll need as well...... rack fittings to connect the ps lines, headers, trans crossmember...etc.

[badazz81z28]

They will be other trinkets you'll need as well...... rack fittings to connect the ps lines, headers, trans crossmember...etc.

I'm sure hoping the headers I currently have fit. What do most folks use for the tranny X-member?

[71RS/SS396]

I'm sure hoping the headers I currently have fit. What do most folks use for the tranny X-member?

I'll be surprised if your current headers work due to the steering shaft going to the rack, the shaft is closer to the center of the car than the stock shaft would be. The DSE headers have a space for the steering shaft to pass between 2 of the tubes.
My cross member is custom made, you may be able to modify your stock cross member and use it but I'm not sure.

[badazz81z28]

I'll be surprised if your current headers work due to the steering shaft going to the rack, the shaft is closer to the center of the car than the stock shaft would be. The DSE headers have a space for the steering shaft to pass between 2 of the tubes.
My cross member is custom made, you may be able to modify your stock cross member and use it but I'm not sure.

SOB....I just saw your pictures of the headers. I'm guessing another DSE only part....Crap I should have thought through this DSE frame a little more.

[TheJDMan]

I used the factory 1st Gen SBC motor mounts with my 1st Gen DSE sub frame. I also found that DynaTech headers fit and clear the steering column nicely. Speaking of steering column, you can buy all the necessary parts to fab your steering linkage from Summit. You will probably need two u-joints and a section of 3/4" DD shaft.

[Musclerodz]

DSE headers only work if you use the setback mounts. Otherwise you will have to source headers. A number of guys are running the Ultimate Headers. Very nice piece. They are not full length but no clearance issues. Dont remember what trans your running but if it is a 6 speed get the ATS crossmember from Speedtech.

[71RS/SS396]

SOB....I just saw your pictures of the headers. I'm guessing another DSE only part....Crap I should have thought through this DSE frame a little more.

You don't have to use the DSE headers necessarily, in fact it would likely be cheaper to just modify the ones you have IF they don't work as is. I would take any first gen parts recommendations with a grain of salt. I know for fact there's a big difference in the frame stands for the engine mounts. The engine is significantly farther back in a second gen vs the first gen. I would mock the engine, trans, and headers up in the sub before you put the sub in the car and see what's going to work. I have ATS tri-y headers on my wife's first gen which everyone told me would not work with the DSE sub but with a slight modification to one tube they do in fact work.

[badazz81z28]

Which company makes DSE's headers? I already pinged SW and Lemons, neither confirm.

[Musclerodz]

DSE builds there headers in house.

[71RS/SS396]

Pro-fab makes DSE ' s headers but I'd be willing to bet they have an agreement to sell at the same price since DSE spent all the time and money to design and develop them.

[badazz81z28]

Pro-fab makes DSE ' s headers but I'd be willing to bet they have an agreement to sell at the same price since DSE spent all the time and money to design and develop them.

EDIT

[71RS/SS396]

I'm sure they are nice pieces, but really...$2500 and that's 3rd party profit.

They're not quite $2,500, have you priced any high quality SS LS headers? I'll bet the Lemons aren't going to be cheap either.

[badazz81z28]

They're not quite $2,500, have you priced any high quality SS LS headers? I'll bet the Lemons aren't going to be cheap either.

Yeah, Stainless Works. $1K

[71RS/SS396]

Yeah, Stainless Works. $1K

Well there you go, if they fit you're good to go.

[Z06vette]

Which stainless works are you using? Not sure if this matters but I found some pics of SW wayne due subframe headers installed in dse subframe. I know the first gen stuff is different but maybe it may work for you. I just ordrered a dse sub & have been digging for headers as well. I currently have a wayne due subframe & will test fit my old SW headers to confirm. My thoughts were if they make headers for 2nd gen w rack & pinion you just might luck out on fitment. Keep us posted.

[badazz81z28]

Which stainless works are you using? Not sure if this matters but I found some pics of SW wayne due subframe headers installed in dse subframe. I know the first gen stuff is different but maybe it may work for you. I just ordrered a dse sub & have been digging for headers as well. I currently have a wayne due subframe & will test fit my old SW headers to confirm. My thoughts were if they make headers for 2nd gen w rack & pinion you just might luck out on fitment. Keep us posted.

Is there more than one Stainless Works? I really want the DSE headers, I would pay probably $1500, but I just can't do $2300+ship

[badazz81z28]

DSE headers only work if you use the setback mounts. Otherwise you will have to source headers. A number of guys are running the Ultimate Headers. Very nice piece. They are not full length but no clearance issues. Dont remember what trans your running but if it is a 6 speed get the ATS crossmember from Speedtech.

This one?

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=259/category_id=41/mode=prod/prd259.htm

[68LS1]

This one?

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=259/category_id=41/mode=prod/prd259.htm

My understanding is that you need a 1st Gen crossmember. The DSE subframe rails are same for 1st & 2nd gen.

I'm yet to test fit my engine & trans.

[Musclerodz]

This one?

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=259/category_id=41/mode=prod/prd259.htm

You will need the first gen one.

[badazz81z28]

You will need the first gen one.

Do you happen to have a link?

[TonyHuntimer]

My understanding is that you need a 1st Gen crossmember. The DSE subframe rails are same for 1st & 2nd gen.

I'm yet to test fit my engine & trans.

Roger,

Are you upgrading to a DSE? Do they offer right-hand drive? :)

Tony Huntimer

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Tony We've got a right hand drive system for a 1st gen. :) We've sent a bunch to Australia.

Musclerodz- Have you compared the two? We've had a 1st gen DSE subframe car come through the shop and the 1st Gen ATS cross member fit great. We haven't had a 2nd gen DSE subframe come through the shop though, so you've got our attention. What makes a 1st Gen ATS mount fit better than a 2nd gen ATS mount on the DSE frame?

Thanks for any insight you can share.

[Musclerodz]

Hey Tony We've got a right hand drive system for a 1st gen. :) We've sent a bunch to Australia.

Musclerodz- Have you compared the two? We've had a 1st gen DSE subframe car come through the shop and the 1st Gen ATS cross member fit great. We haven't had a 2nd gen DSE subframe come through the shop though, so you've got our attention. What makes a 1st Gen ATS mount fit better than a 2nd gen ATS mount on the DSE frame?

Thanks for any insight you can share.

I was told by DSE they designed their second gen sub to use a first gen crossmember. I have not personally compared the two crossmembers. I have had both subs here but the second gen install we did was an auto and it was 3 years ago, I have slept since then unfortunately.

[68LS1]

Roger,

Are you upgrading to a DSE? Do they offer right-hand drive? :)

Tony Huntimer

Hi Tony, hope you are well

This is for my new 70 Camaro project

The 68 is staying as is for awhile

Cheers Roger

[68LS1]

Hey Tony We've got a right hand drive system for a 1st gen. :) We've sent a bunch to Australia.

Musclerodz- Have you compared the two? We've had a 1st gen DSE subframe car come through the shop and the 1st Gen ATS cross member fit great. We haven't had a 2nd gen DSE subframe come through the shop though, so you've got our attention. What makes a 1st Gen ATS mount fit better than a 2nd gen ATS mount on the DSE frame?

Thanks for any insight you can share.

Hi Ben
From what I understand, the DSE hydro formed frame rails are same, for first & second gen, crossmember & body mounts are different. Getting firm info from DSE was more difficult than I am used to from them, very non committal.
This means a second gen trans xmember won't work as the stock subframe mounting is further back. You guys would understand differences best between first & second gen trans xmember mounting points.
I have a first gen trans xmember from Hurst Drivelines coming which I ordered with transmission, will look at fit and compare with the ATS one I have in my 68.
Regards Roger

[badazz81z28]

Hi Ben
From what I understand, the DSE hydro formed frame rails are same, for first & second gen, crossmember & body mounts are different. Getting firm info from DSE was more difficult than I am used to from them, very non committal.
This means a second gen trans xmember won't work as the stock subframe mounting is further back. You guys would understand differences best between first & second gen trans xmember mounting points.
I have a first gen trans xmember from Hurst Drivelines coming which I ordered with transmission, will look at fit and compare with the ATS one I have in my 68.
Regards Roger


I'm ready to buy my crossmember as soon as we figure this out :G-Dub:

[Smittys67]

Buying the sub frame at the big box store saved you some money. But you got 0 info. You can buy headers from Ultimate Headers they fit and are like $1200ish depending on finish. I know they fit I have fit them.

P.s you have to buy them through a dealer.

[badazz81z28]

Buying the sub frame at the big box store saved you some money. But you got 0 info. You can buy headers from Ultimate Headers they fit and are like $1200ish depending on finish. I know they fit I have fit them.

P.s you have to buy them through a dealer.

The post has been updated

[Matt@BOS]

"Some Money" is an understatement. :G-Dub: Even though a vendor can provide excellent support and advice, I saved entirely too much money to justify buying advice. Dude I saved nearly $1500, free freight, and I earned $200 in summit bucks. I greatly appreciate the advice given and my target audience in forums is actual consumers who are using this frame. Please don't feel like I stabbed vendors in the back than asked them for help. I don't make $80 an hour so I need to save where I can.

FWIW, I called DSE and they were very helpful, unfortunately they fabricate their cross-members specific for each build.

Yup, its hard to justify buying at close to list from someone that has built cars with the parts they sell, and know all of the hidden expenses, because they don't sell enough volume to get the great pricing like companies who have small offices and place orders and drop ship parts all day, or from huge places like Summit that can and will price match.

/mini rant after receiving emails and private messages for install tips and help from people after they elsewhere.

[dontlifttoshift]

Buying the sub frame at the big box store saved you some money. But you got 0 info. You can buy headers from Ultimate Headers they fit and are like $1200ish depending on finish. I know they fit I have fit them.

P.s you have to buy them through a dealer.

Nailed it!

[badazz81z28]

Yup, its hard to justify buying at close to list from someone that has built cars with the parts they sell, and know all of the hidden expenses, because they don't sell enough volume to get the great pricing like companies who have small offices and place orders and drop ship parts all day, or from huge places like Summit that can and will price match.

/mini rant after receiving emails and private messages for install tips and help from people after they elsewhere.

The post has been updated

[dhutton]

So what is the message here? You only help and give advice when they put money into your pocket? That's not being an enthusiast that does this for the passion. The attitude of "what's in it for me" doesn't go too far for a lot of folks. I have been playing with cars for over 15 years now and have always provided info and advice if I had it and never expected something in return. From what I understand anyways, people who build cars don't or really shouldn't expect to make money on the parts because they don't sell in high volumes. The labor of doing the work is where the money is made. $1000 to weld in SFCs, $4000 to weld in Mini-tubs...its paid forward. Besides, I have not PM'd or emailed any of you. This is a forum...a CoP. If you want to contribute, awesome. If you just want to be a sour grape, that's your choice too.

I've been on these forums for quite a few years now and one of the things I have learned is that you should do your shopping discretely using PM's and never advertise/flaunt the price you pay for anything on a vendor supported forum. I've also learned to fully exhaust the search functions before asking for help. Both of these will help keep you from getting into exchanges like this...

Don

[badazz81z28]

I've been on these forums for quite a few years now and one of the things I have learned is that you should do your shopping discretely using PM's and never advertise/flaunt the price you pay for anything on a vendor supported forum. I've also learned to fully exhaust the search functions before asking for help. Both of these will help keep you from getting into exchanges like this...

Don

Thanks Don, I have been on these forums for while as well. My intention was not to advertise or flaunt, I just wanted Smitty to understand why I did not buy from him. Nothing personal.

[Matt@BOS]

The post has been updated

My apologies for my post. It was NOT directed right at you. I do the best I can to be helpful, and also do the best I can, when possible, to support those with knowledge and advice that help me.

I may not always have the best answer or greatest knowledge of things, but if you ever need help at the track, and I'm there, I know the DSE stuff fairly well and would gladly lend a helping hand!

[dhutton]

This should be the cross member you need, first gen T-56 since the subframe rails are based on the first gen:

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=257/category_id=30/mode=prod/prd257.htm

Don

[Smittys67]

it was just a little jab. I still provided info on headers which work very well.
We do sell a ton of parts and a lot of times provide all of the parts for a customers build because we know what works.

[badazz81z28]

Gents,

I got the speedtech crossmember and despite it fitting the frame, the wierd "L-Brackets", go pretty vertical off the frame. This doesnt seem like it will clear the floor. Does anyone have actual expereince using this X-member and possibly photos?

[badazz81z28]

Here is the 67-69 Speed-Tech X-member on my 70-81 Frame. Fits good, but the floor to bracket does not.

[dhutton]

I think they are upside down.

Don

[71RS/SS396]

I think they are upside down.

Don

Nope, he's got it assembled correctly.

[71RS/SS396]

Gents,

I got the speedtech crossmember and despite it fitting the frame, the wierd "L-Brackets", go pretty vertical off the frame. This doesnt seem like it will clear the floor. Does anyone have actual expereince using this X-member and possibly photos?

My wife's first gen has one... the vertical brackets pretty much touch the floor but I think this may have to do with the half height body bushings. I plan to eventually replace this crossmember because I don't like the amount of flex it has.

[dhutton]

Nope, he's got it assembled correctly.

Yep, my mistake.

Thanks,
Don

[badazz81z28]

I think they are upside down.

Don

I hoped so, but I have seen installed photos on the 1st gen and this is how they are oriented. Ben also has pictures posted in the new 2" header post as the same orientation.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48446

[badazz81z28]

Guys I really need some help. I recently got word that I'm going to be transferred and I don't know what to do for an X-member now.

[Z06vette]

Probably too late at this point, but today I just dropped the body (69) onto the DSE subframe with motor/trans installed. The brackets on the ATS crossmember are up against the floor. I have the DSE std height mounts. Tim- what trans cross member do you plan to run on Deb's car?

On a second note- I used the 1" setback mounts, and the 102 FAST intake is against the firewall. So I dropped the sub back out for crossmember and engine stand replacement ...

[Blake Foster]

I'm sure hoping the headers I currently have fit. What do most folks use for the tranny X-member?

the ATS one works perfect

[Blake Foster]

Probably too late at this point, but today I just dropped the body (69) onto the DSE subframe with motor/trans installed. The brackets on the ATS crossmember are up against the floor. I have the DSE std height mounts. Tim- what trans cross member do you plan to run on Deb's car?

On a second note- I used the 1" setback mounts, and the 102 FAST intake is against the firewall. So I dropped the sub back out for crossmember and engine stand replacement ...

The mounts are supposed to be up at the floor. there should be 1/8 - 3/16 gap but that is all.
Just re red the OP first post and the car is a second gen so that is probably the issue the AST Cross member shown a couple post back is a first gen X Member and the second gen has a different shape floor and the side brackets are shorter. I an thinking that is where the confusion is.

[Z06vette]

I have the ats x member and the brackets hit the floor on my 69 w DSE subframe, just as Tim mentioned above on his wife's car. As I was tightening the subrame bolts, they got tight & I noticed the brackets up against the floor. Stock height DSE body mounts. Maybe I'm missing something...

[dhutton]

The mounts are supposed to be up at the floor. there should be 1/8 - 3/16 gap but that is all.
Just re red the OP first post and the car is a second gen so that is probably the issue the AST Cross member shown a couple post back is a first gen X Member and the second gen has a different shape floor and the side brackets are shorter. I an thinking that is where the confusion is.

I think part of the confusion comes from DSE saying their second gen subframe uses a first gen crossmember. At least that is my understanding.

Don

[Blake Foster]

Humm. I know we installed our X member on a 69 with a DSE sub here in the shop.
the second gen we have not worked on, I know our ATS side mounts fo ra second gen are substantially shorter as the floor on a second gen is a lot closer at the floor. it would not surprise me if the ATS first gen X member didn't fit the second gen.

[Z06vette]

I have used your crossmember on several first gen cars but all had stock subframe. It was close to floor but cleared. I'm kind of at a loss what to try next. Would your 2nd gen brackets work on first gen x member? Heres a few pics. Was hard to get the camera up in there to get a good shot. The left side is with the subframe bolts tightened down all the way. Right side the is about 1/4" between body bushing & floor.

[Blake Foster]

I have used your crossmember on several first gen cars but all had stock subframe. It was close to floor but cleared. I'm kind of at a loss what to try next. Would your 2nd gen brackets work on first gen x member? Heres a few pics. Was hard to get the camera up in there to get a good shot. The left side is with the subframe bolts tightened down all the way. Right side the is about 1/4" between body bushing & floor.

I am not sure, Great Answer right, it may be that DSE has changed the height of the subframe where the Cross member is (compared to the stock subframe) if the cross member side brackets were moved back (drill new holes) would it then fit? or ar the side brackets just too tall?
I would have to check the OAW of the second gen mounting holes (on a stock sub frame are 32" a first gen is somewhere around 30") so with out knowing the width on the DSE frame hard to answer the question. is the secondgen DSE frame the same width as the first? I would think not?

[Z06vette]

I just ordered a crossmember thru BRP. It looks to have clearance where I need it. Will test fit this weekend and report back.

[Z06vette]

Well, the muscle rods crossmember does not fit either. I could have modified the frame brackets to make that part work, but the headers were right in line with the cross bar. Top 1/3rd of the opening was blocked and would only be worse if I needed to shim the tailshaft on the trans up. Next I will try the G-force and possibly the bowler. This sucks- what are you guys using for a crossmember in a first gen DSE frame??

[badazz81z28]

I think part of the confusion comes from DSE saying their second gen subframe uses a first gen crossmember. At least that is my understanding.

Don

Don,

Appears to be true, The frames bolt hole spacing and frame width to accomdate the crossmember is exactly like a 1st gen. Based on the 1st gen information here, I have not even checked to see if a second gen crossmember is the same width.

[Blake Foster]

Don,

Appears to be true, The frames bolt hole spacing and frame width to accomdate the crossmember is exactly like a 1st gen. Based on the 1st gen information here, I have not even checked to see if a second gen crossmember is the same width.

second gen should be wider. both in body mounts and X member

[Blake Foster]

I just ordered a crossmember thru BRP. It looks to have clearance where I need it. Will test fit this weekend and report back.

PM SENT!

[badazz81z28]

second gen should be wider. both in body mounts and X member

Yeah, I figured as much. Just looking for a good 1st gen x-member that will fit my sec gen floor. My Speedtech crossmember is now collecting dust.

[Z06vette]

I'll be swapping in the G-force X member in the next day or 2. Its a stout piece and looks to have more clearance in the area of the frame bracket compared to the speedtech. Will report back with pics by end of the week.

[GregWeld]

Funny -- building a car actually takes some skill.... there's no catalog that lists all the parts numbers and suppliers for your particular build. Sometimes you buy parts and then you must modify them to fit your application -- or for clearance... or maybe it's because nobody really makes a part for your combination.

I'm not trying to be mean or rude or pick on you... I'm just making an honest statement here.

Building these cars is HARD.... it costs WAY more money than you'll imagine. It takes WAY more time than anyone can allow for. Sourcing and waiting for parts is all just a part of the process. Suppliers can't possibly know everything there is to know. Sometimes you have to mock stuff up - measure the hell out of it - and then find some part (or combo of parts) that is close... without knowing measurements etc - that's nearly impossible. You won't have measurements or know what you're going to run in to until you've mocked stuff up about half a dozen times. Even then something will go sideways that you didn't allow for or see or think of.... That's when you get to undo the modification you made to some part and do it over a better/different way.

If it was easy - everyone would do it and their car would only take 6 months to build and cost half as much as they told their wife it was going to be.


Don't get frustrated -- it's a hobby.... enjoy the trip... pat yourself on the back when you mastered some stupid little "problem" -- don't make it a problem -- be the solution. You'll enjoy it more. Stand back and know that you solved for "X".

[jazz2069]

I have a dse subframe and agree with some in this thread that the subframe should come with a few more extras like crossmember and a second option for headers that are more affordable. My 2 cents nate

[Blake Foster]

And some just come with all that stuff

:y0!:

[Vegas69]

Everybody should pay taxes but they don't. It's not like this info isn't readily available when you buy the frame.

I can tell you this, the DSE subframe was one of the favorite aspects of my car. It made it feel modern and factory like. Big expenditure, I agree.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

We used a modified 1969 TH400 xmember on a DSE frame. We had to cut off the trans mount perch and re-weld it. Cheap and easy job.

[Chassisworks]

I don't think I saw this thread until today. DSE's first and second-gen clips both take the first gen crossmember. We found this out when we picked up the phone and called them after a customer was having a fitment issue.

Today, we offer solutions for the 67-69 and 70-73 F-Body and the 68-74 X-Body. Direct-fit transmission crossmembers are available for Turbo 350, Turbo 400, Powerglide, 700R4, 200-4R, 4L60, 4L65E, Muncie 4-speed, Richmond 5- or 6-speed, and many Tremec 5- or 6-speed transmissions.

Crossmembers are 1-1/4 x .120"-wall steel, dual-tube, fully enclosed structures that are stronger than OEM stamped designs and rigid enough for the vehicle to benefit from stiff polyurethane transmission mounts. Tubes are mandrel bent to provide 3" dual-exhaust clearance and to correctly position the mount for each model transmission.

Note: Installation on factory or DSE subframe requires additional adapter kit.

More Details Here:
http://www.cachassisworks.com/c-157-trans-crossmembers-direct-fit.aspx

http://www.cachassisworks.com/images/product/large/5922-f10_4_.jpg

[badazz81z28]

I don't think I saw this thread until today. DSE's first and second-gen clips both take the first gen crossmember. We found this out when we picked up the phone and called them after a customer was having a fitment issue.

Today, we offer solutions for the 67-69 and 70-73 F-Body and the 68-74 X-Body. Direct-fit transmission crossmembers are available for Turbo 350, Turbo 400, Powerglide, 700R4, 200-4R, 4L60, 4L65E, Muncie 4-speed, Richmond 5- or 6-speed, and many Tremec 5- or 6-speed transmissions.

Crossmembers are 1-1/4 x .120"-wall steel, dual-tube, fully enclosed structures that are stronger than OEM stamped designs and rigid enough for the vehicle to benefit from stiff polyurethane transmission mounts. Tubes are mandrel bent to provide 3" dual-exhaust clearance and to correctly position the mount for each model transmission.

Note: Installation on factory or DSE subframe requires additional adapter kit.

More Details Here:
http://www.cachassisworks.com/c-157-trans-crossmembers-direct-fit.aspx

http://www.cachassisworks.com/images/product/large/5922-f10_4_.jpg

PM sent.


This is exactly what was talking about in my last thread. I picked up the phone and called them too. I got the "huh" I don't know, we make custom applications,

They did not tell me the 67-69 crossmember works.

[GregWeld]

PM sent.


This is exactly what was talking about in my last thread. I picked up the phone and called them too. I got the "huh" I don't know, we make custom applications,

They did not tell me the 67-69 crossmember works.



So -- Carl comes on - helps you out.... and you don't even say so much as a THANK YOU.... instead you whine about having called them without success.

Maybe it's the way you go about asking the questions - or maybe you can't explain to someone what it is you're looking for. Or maybe after a little conversation they can't wait to get you off the phone.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

So -- Carl comes on - helps you out.... and you don't even say so much as a THANK YOU.... instead you whine about having called them without success.

Maybe it's the way you go about asking the questions - or maybe you can't explain to someone what it is you're looking for. Or maybe after a little conversation they can't wait to get you off the phone.

I think he was talking about DSE speedy :poke:

[rickpaw]

I have a dse subframe and agree with some in this thread that the subframe should come with a few more extras like crossmember and a second option for headers that are more affordable. My 2 cents nate

Everybody should pay taxes but they don't. It's not like this info isn't readily available when you buy the frame.


Agreed. DSE stuff is expensive, and there are other cheaper alternatives. But people still buying DSE stuff, so their stuff works, otherwise no one buys them. The information on what's needed for the frame is right on the web site. It's not a secret. I guess DSE can include a crossmember and jack up the price to cover the cost. But then there are some many different engine/tranny combo's out there, how can they know which one will work. They can't anticipate what the customers will use and design different parts for different combo's.

We're putting DSE front suspension with an 5.3/4l60e into my friend's 65 Mustang. Right off the bat, I will have to either mod the existing crossmember or build something to make it work. To me, that's the joy of car building. Did I expect DSE to come up with something that works, no. On the other hand, we bought DSE LS mounts for the Alumaframe, so I expect the LS will drop right in.

[rickpaw]

I have used your crossmember on several first gen cars but all had stock subframe. It was close to floor but cleared. I'm kind of at a loss what to try next. Would your 2nd gen brackets work on first gen x member? Heres a few pics. Was hard to get the camera up in there to get a good shot. The left side is with the subframe bolts tightened down all the way. Right side the is about 1/4" between body bushing & floor.

Scott, here's a thought. Maybe your floor pan may have sagged over the years, if it's an original floor. My firebird has original floor pan, and the original crossmember will hit the floor on the pass side. A floor jack with a 2x4 underneath the sag fixed that.

[badazz81z28]

Agreed. DSE stuff is expensive, and there are other cheaper alternatives. But people still buying DSE stuff, so their stuff works, otherwise no one buys them. The information on what's needed for the frame is right on the web site. It's not a secret. I guess DSE can include a crossmember and jack up the price to cover the cost. But then there are some many different engine/tranny combo's out there, how can they know which one will work. They can't anticipate what the customers will use and design different parts for different combo's.

We're putting DSE front suspension with an 5.3/4l60e into my friend's 65 Mustang. Right off the bat, I will have to either mod the existing crossmember or build something to make it work. To me, that's the joy of car building. Did I expect DSE to come up with something that works, no. On the other hand, we bought DSE LS mounts for the Alumaframe, so I expect the LS will drop right in.

It makes sense that you can't build parts for all applications, but it is highly likely that a DSE frame owner in a camaro is going to use an LS engine and a T56. That's what 99% of the owners here that autocross run. DSE has specific LS motor mounts, it make sense to have a crossmember especially when they know the stock one doesn't work. I know there are more 67-69 owners and that's likely the priority from a business perspective.


Hey Greg, slow down and not be so quick to bash. I was talking about DSE, I even pmd Carl about a possible purchase.....

[GregWeld]

It makes sense that you can't build parts for all applications, but it is highly likely that a DSE frame owner in a camaro is going to use an LS engine and a T56. That's what 99% of the owners here that autocross run. DSE has specific LS motor mounts, it make sense to have a crossmember especially when they know the stock one doesn't work. I know there are more 67-69 owners and that's likely the priority from a business perspective.


Hey Greg, slow down and not be so quick to bash. I was talking about DSE, I even pmd Carl about a possible purchase.....



I re-read your post several times before deciding to post what I did.... and it still reads to me that you'd called Chassisworks and gotten no help. This is the "communication" I was speaking about... maybe you're not being real clear in what you need and what you have. I'm actually trying to be HELPFUL to you. If we were in the same room it would be easier to discuss. Attitude etc doesn't come thru in typing.

I'll say this as well. On THIS website you'll get way more help when you're positive in your approach to vendors etc.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I know its impossible to make everyone happy all of the time but at least give them a hint.

http://gifrific.com/man-eating-out-of-big-bag-of-popcorn/

[badazz81z28]

I re-read your post several times before deciding to post what I did.... and it still reads to me that you'd called Chassisworks and gotten no help. This is the "communication" I was speaking about... maybe you're not being real clear in what you need and what you have. I'm actually trying to be HELPFUL to you. If we were in the same room it would be easier to discuss. Attitude etc doesn't come thru in typing.

I'll say this as well. On THIS website you'll get way more help when you're positive in your approach to vendors etc.

I think you're seeing what you want to see. If you and I were talking and having a conversation and I said "yeah, I called them too". Would you think I was talking "about" you? :thumbsup:

This thread is already out of control, but come on...you have not tried to help, but in the spirit of things I will ensure that my post can't be twisted and perceive to give the wrong message.

[Flash68]

I think you're seeing what you want to see. If you and I were talking and having a conversation and I said "yeah, I called them too". Would you think I was talking "about" you? :thumbsup:

This thread is already out of control, but come on...you have not tried to help, but in the spirit of things I will ensure that my post can't be twisted and perceive to give the wrong message.

I'm seeing what he is seeing. And I guarantee we aren't the only ones.

You said "I picked up the phone and called them too"... and this is AFTER you made it clear that you already called DSE... so "too" means in addition to.

Like others have said, you should have known what did and didn't come with the "kit" when you spent that kind of money. You said yourself you've been playing with cars for 15 years so this ain't your first rodeo. You decided to do your research afterward apparently and come on here and grumble about DSE and their "woes"... one of the stand up players in this community.

It's all in the attitude... and tact. Take notice of how others who are helped (and give help) on this great forum have it and use it.

[Chassisworks]

Gosh guys, can we all take a deep breath for a moment? I know we all love our cars and get frustrated, and we get frustrated when other people get frustrated. Even me, yes it's true. I put down the phone after a half hour of nonsense yesterday and badly needed a cigarette; and I don't smoke! The written word is a tricky way to communicate. There's a reason we are all car guys and not millionaire authors.

That said, thanks for jumping to the defense of the manufacturer. My experience is that the best source of info is the building where the part came from. On our parts, that's the building I sit in. Sometimes people phrase questions really weird and it takes a minute to get on the same page. (Refraining from writing a blog style post here.)

By the way, our clip packages don't automatically include a trans crossmember either. They are an available option. Why? Because we make six of them! They all require different amounts of material and labor to build, and as a result they all are priced slightly different.

Owning a muscle car:
:G-Dub:

Badazz(Dude, what's your real name?) and I are trying to resolve his issue. Hopefully I can help him out.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I agree Carl, So lets see if we can keep this thread from getting locked and get a fix going. A lot of good info here for those that might have questions.

[Z06vette]

OK guys. I know I am working on a 1st gen DSE frame, but since it appears the crossmembers fit both (aside from less floor clearance in 2nd gen) I hope this helps a few guys. I put the G-force crossmember in today. It fits perfect- with room to spare. It just about falls in. Plenty of room between frame & floor on first gen. Plenty of header clearance, and I have a 3/4" shim under the trans mount. At worst, you may have to loosen the subframe bolts on one side on 2nd gen to slide one end in place. Tu- I had a full floor put in the car when I built it- but you are correct- I was able to coax a smidge of clearance for the speedtech crossmember. I could have left it in, but it was very tight.. I'll get some better pics tomorrow & update

Scott

[badazz81z28]

Scott, looks great, thank you for posting the pictures. Are you using the DSE LS 1" set back mounts too?.

[Z06vette]

Originally I had them because I had a C6 oil pan, and stainless works headers. Since the DSE headers req'd set back mounts, I thought the SW would as well. I had everything back in the car, but the FAST 102 was against the firewall. I could have modded the firewall, but I had just welded up the uneeded holes & repainted it. The headers were about 1/8" from the toeboard on the driver's side, and the alt was about that close to the frame.(F body Acc) I switched mounts to stock location and went to F body oil pan. Everything fits well. Amazing how much difference 1" can make. I can just about slide my hand between the floor and the crossmember with the G-force.
Scott

[Vegas69]

That crossmember looks like it was built to tow the titanic.

[badazz81z28]

For any future Inquires, the Speed Tech 67-69 adjustable Camaro crossmember as well as the Bowler Transmission crossmember do not fit. They physically bolt to the frame, just not enough set-back.

[Blake Foster]

For any future Inquires, the Speed Tech 67-69 adjustable Camaro crossmember as well as the Bowler Transmission crossmember do not fit. They physically bolt to the frame, just not enough set-back.

how could there be not enough set back? the AST has 4" of adjustment and works on the factory frame?
it should fit up in the floor recess on the body which corresponds to the trans location??? I do get that it is tight to the floor due to DSE raising the sub frame mount but the set back should be the same???

you have obviously tried it so I am not questioning that just questioning it?

[GregWeld]

For any future Inquires, the Speed Tech 67-69 adjustable Camaro crossmember as well as the Bowler Transmission crossmember do not fit. They physically bolt to the frame, just not enough set-back.




It would really help if you gave way better information in your posts. Like DID YOU HAPPEN TO PURCHASE SET BACK MOUNTS for the motor?? And then did you expect a standard transmission crossmember to work with that?

[badazz81z28]

It would really help if you gave way better information in your posts. Like DID YOU HAPPEN TO PURCHASE SET BACK MOUNTS for the motor?? And then did you expect a standard transmission crossmember to work with that?



There are no other options for the sec gen camaro DSE frame that I know of. You can't get stock position frame stands/adapters. Btw it was mentioned the ATS adjustable did work fysa.

The post could be more civilized, if you relaxed a little.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

There are no other options for the sec gen camaro DSE frame that I know of. You can't get stock position frame stands/adapters. Btw it was mentioned the ATS adjustable did work fysa.

The post could be more civilized, if you relaxed a little.

its the caps isn't it

[badazz81z28]

how could there be not enough set back? the AST has 4" of adjustment and works on the factory frame?
it should fit up in the floor recess on the body which corresponds to the trans location??? I do get that it is tight to the floor due to DSE raising the sub frame mount but the set back should be the same???

you have obviously tried it so I am not questioning that just questioning it?

Beyond me, what boggles me is why it has so much forward adjustment. If it's for a t56, you would never need to push it that much forward.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/badazz81z28/bowler%20t56%20crossmember/IMG_0137_zps783cb470.jpg


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/badazz81z28/bowler%20t56%20crossmember/IMG_0139_zpsdf28b334.jpg

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Is that what is not fitting?

Loosen all the bolts to the mounts, crossmember to the frame
Then start all the bolts, then tighten them.

[badazz81z28]

Is that what is not fitting?

Loosen all the bolts to the mounts, crossmember to the frame
Then start all the bolts, then tighten them.

Not exactly, the crossmember' forward bolt hole is put in the center hole on the frame. I would need to drill holes in the frame, not quite ready for that.

[Sieg]

Did this crossmember fit?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/badazz81z28/bowler%20t56%20crossmember/IMG_0107_zpsf2c3758b.jpg

[badazz81z28]

Super close, closer than the ATS. I'm working with Bowler transmission to work that one.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Not exactly, the crossmember' forward bolt hole is put in the center hole on the frame. I would need to drill holes in the frame, not quite ready for that.

If anything I'd redrill the holes you need in those ATS plates that you have. 1 hole on each side?

[Sieg]

Are the frame plates identical?

Could they be swapped/reversed for a gain?

[Sieg]

Is DSE the only choice for mounts on their frame?

Yes, unless you want to start fabbing something. The second gen frame stands are really far back on the crossmember, it actually positions the urethane mount behind the crossmember.

:headscratch:

[badazz81z28]

:headscratch:



Yeah, it's weird. I will have to snap side by side comparisons to the stock frame

[GregWeld]

Is this an LS engine install???

[badazz81z28]

Yes sir, it is

[GregWeld]

Could it be that the engine mount adaptors --- assuming there are these being used -- are mounted incorrectly? There have been many threads on Lat G discussing this -- and it seems that mounting them "one way" versus the other sets the motor forward or back. This "might" explain the lack of fit at the tranny.... IDK. But it was worth asking.