Ridetech four link vs speed tech torque arm rear suspension

[31069ss]

What's your guys thoughts on both ? The pros and cons ? Is the ride tech able to
Run 335 rear tires ? I'm going to be ordering rear suspension soon and I'm not really sure what to get since i have been running lowering leafs for the last 6 years .... Any help would be greatly appreciated

[DBasher]

I talked with a guy in Portland at the USCA who was running and broke a torque arm. Besides the busted parts he had talked about some other issues with the TA that he didn't like. The biggest thing I remember was the noise and vibration, he hated driving the car after the install because of these two issues.

Nothing wrong with running a good set of leafs and quality shocks. That being said RideTech has a great track record of putting out quality parts that work.

Dan

[Sieg]

Sounds like the driveline angles may have been off? First I've heard of one breaking. What's hard to know with anyones components is the integrity of the installation.

[chetly]

Mike Maier is running a tourqe arm in the 66 coupe and that has a nascar motor, Rob from No Limit is running a torque arm and has a pretty stout LS motor. I've never seen either if them break. I've driven Mikes coupe and it puts the power down pretty hard. Like middle of second gear flat on the floor hard.


Triangulated 4 link, same thing as a chevelle has underneath it.

[GregWeld]

Sounds like the driveline angles may have been off? First I've heard of one breaking. What's hard to know with anyones components is the integrity of the installation.




EGG SACK LEE!!


Who knows what the cause was -- and the noise and vibration issues should be the first clue that the install was probably not quite up to snuff. It's amazing what people with jack stands and a MIG welder will do to a car.


To answer the OP question ---- I would think that it all depends.... depends on what you want to do with the car - you budget - future mods... tire sizes that can be used etc. And the best place to find those answers would be with the manufacture directly.

BTW - Mary Pozzi never seemed to have a problem winning a few Auto X's with her old leaf spring car... and I know a few people that would love to be able to keep up with my leaf spring car on a road course... Having said that... I'd switch to a 3 link if it was actually going to gain me some lap time... and that's doubtful and would cost more than it's worth perhaps.

The other thing the OP should do -- is to engage Ron Sutton Race Technologies (meaning agree to pay him) and then have Ron figure out with MATH and RACE SMARTS which one would be suitable for the goal.

[Rick D]

Sounds like the driveline angles may have been off? First I've heard of one breaking. What's hard to know with anyones components is the integrity of the installation.


^^^What Sieg said, there are quite a few running the TA setups on here and I haven't heard of that. Most likely it was installed incorrectly?? Remember the TA arm is nothing new, GM has been running it for years!!

As for which setup to go with, both have pros and cons, pros both are proven on the track ALOT, depending on budget that could be a con, the TA setup cost more then the RideTech setup. Packaging is another thing to think about?? Both require some welding skills or you have to have it welded.

If I change out my leafs I think I'm going with the RideTech setup, or I will make my own 4 link Vince??? :bitchslap:

[Ron Sutton]

If this is the broken Torque Arm situation that I'm aware of ... there is more involved. The one I'm aware of had rear wheel hop issues going into the corners. Torque arms don't cause that. Just the opposite, as "most" torque arms place the pick up point out 50"+/- ... which will lower the anti-squat % & help reduce wheel hop.

Wheel hop is typically caused by one of these things:
A. Too soft of rear springs ... insufficient force to hold the rear wheels down.

B. Too soft of shock valving ... insufficient control to hold the rear wheels down.

C. Too stiff of rear springs ... combined with too soft of shock valving ... running over bumps or irregular surfaces.
* Stiff spring impacting bumps causes the hop ... and the shock with too soft of valving can't stop it.

D. Too much anti-squat (too short of an Instant Center) ... causing the car to be loose under braking. Rear wheel hop is the stage just before "loose entry".
* Too much rear brake bias can compound the problem, but doesn't cause wheel hop by itself.

E. Driver down shifting too early and/or letting the clutch out too early (before engine RPM's match the speed of car).

None of those are caused by running a Torque Arm suspension ... but continuous rear wheel hop ... can break almost any rear suspension. So in this case ... if it is the one I'm aware of ... the wheel hop most likely broke the Torque Arm. As most likely, as the Torque Arm was breaking, the hop got worse.

:cheers:

[31069ss]

EGG SACK LEE!!


Who knows what the cause was -- and the noise and vibration issues should be the first clue that the install was probably not quite up to snuff. It's amazing what people with jack stands and a MIG welder will do to a car.


To answer the OP question ---- I would think that it all depends.... depends on what you want to do with the car - you budget - future mods... tire sizes that can be used etc. And the best place to find those answers would be with the manufacture directly.

BTW - Mary Pozzi never seemed to have a problem winning a few Auto X's with her old leaf spring car... and I know a few people that would love to be able to keep up with my leaf spring car on a road course... Having said that... I'd switch to a 3 link if it was actually going to gain me some lap time... and that's doubtful and would cost more than it's worth perhaps.

The other thing the OP should do -- is to engage Ron Sutton Race Technologies (meaning agree to pay him) and then have Ron figure out with MATH and RACE SMARTS which one would be suitable for the goal.


The car will see some track time but mostly all street time

[DBasher]

Ron I'm sure we are talking about the same car. I didn't want to mention the shop name or the company of the TA because I only had part of the information.

So if properly set up, are they silky smooth? No more or less vibration and noise transmitted up under the driver?

[Sieg]

There's something to be said for long arms IMO.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vTRBptg/0/L/i-vTRBptg-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-46zGQ2V/0/L/i-46zGQ2V-L.jpg

Back in my dirt track crew days in the early 80's using the long Chevy pickup control arms in the rear was very effective.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron I'm sure we are talking about the same car. I didn't want to mention the shop name or the company of the TA because I only had part of the information.

So if properly set up, are they silky smooth? No more or less vibration and noise transmitted up under the driver?


In most cases the type of rear suspension doesn't have any effect on NVH (Nosise/Vibration/Harshness). NVH comes from a LOT of different sources, from front control arm bushings, motor & trans mounts, steering, etc. The NVH that comes from rear suspensions is more of a function of the rod ends, joints or bushing type chosen. There are exceptions.

Leaf springs have a lot of harmonic noise going on, because they are doing three jobs ... rear axle side control, suspension link & spring. When driven hard, they "can" create some ugly harmonics that are counter productive to smoothness & grip. But during street cruising those loads are there.

Torque Arms that mount to the trans mount "may" or "may not" transmit some of the transmission/driveshaft NVH through the car. But that depends on the mounting method.

Otherwise 3-links, 4-links, Torque Arms, etc are going to be similar in NVH. I believe the decision for each car owner ... is where do your priorities lie. If the car is more of a driver/crusier ... a variety of non-metal bushings will offer less NVH. If the car is meant to be a serious performer, zero friction rod ends & monoballs will allow the suspension to much quicker reacting & produces substantially more grip. It is a compromise either way & a choice for each car guy/gal to make for themselves.

Don't confuse NVH with ride quality or handling/grip. Ride quality is primarily influenced by spring rate, sway bar rate & shock vavling ... and secondarily by suspension bushings.

Someone read my Track Handling Thread & thought I wasn't a fan of Torque Arms ... which is not exactly accurate. Because I'm a racer, tuner & looking for every edge ... I run offset 3-links in race & track cars whenever possible. Frankly, decoupled/offset 3-links if I can. This is the fastest, most tunable rear suspension.

But for multi-purpose cars, street G-machines, true Pro-Touring cars that will be street driven a lot, the Torque Arm is a great rear suspension choice. You don't have to cut up the rear floor. You can keep your rear seat. Most designs put the pick up point 45-50"+/- ahead of the rear axle CL. As mentioned above, that puts the pick up point far enough ahead to avoid problems from too much anti-squat. All in all, a great performing rear suspension.

Make sense?

[DBasher]

Ron, every time you post something it makes sense! Greg can vouch for me when I say I don't know anything. :buttkick:

The owner of the busted TA knew he had some wheel hop issues, it sounded like he was trying some different things to get it taken care of before it broke. I didn't look to see what kind of bushings/mounts he had, just know he made mention of not the ride quality, but the noise/vibration after the change from leaf springs.

To the OP, I'm running leafs and a panhard bar with adjustable shocks. Part of this decision was cost, the other major part was that I don't have an understanding of how to properly tune other combos.

Dan

[Rod P]

Is the ride tech able to
Run 335 rear tires ? I'm going to be ordering rear suspension soon and I'm not really sure what to get since i have been running lowering leafs for the last 6 years .... Any help would be greatly appreciated

yes you can run 335 tires...but that's up to you, you have to mini tub you car, leafs and 4 link achieve the same result, the leaf is more violent on the track compared to a link rear system (anyone's link not just ours) our 4 link is a simple install with the least amount of fabrication, parts and welding

[Blake Foster]

I talked with a guy in Portland at the USCA who was running and broke a torque arm. Besides the busted parts he had talked about some other issues with the TA that he didn't like. The biggest thing I remember was the noise and vibration, he hated driving the car after the install because of these two issues.

Nothing wrong with running a good set of leafs and quality shocks. That being said RideTech has a great track record of putting out quality parts that work.

Dan

You are talking about Keith from Custom Works, I should probably clarify and add to the info you posted. We have been looking at the torque arm that came out of the car, and have pretty much determined the cause. Keith runs Afco double adjustable shocks. the valving on them (according to Afco is a Drag Race set up) is SUPER soft and he was experiencing brake wheel hop (we never see this and even Ron Sutton who I asked for a non bias opinion said flat out "no way you should be getting any brake hop from a torque arm unless the shocks are too soft or too firm). due to the shock not being able to control the rear suspension. This in turn transferred into the torque arm and the metal was deformed and stressed to a point that it tore. we have NEVER seen this in all the time we have been building the torque arm 6 years now, you know how my Nova gets Driven.... and there have been no issues. we have addressed the issue by supplying a different set of shocks for Keith to try and I am positive he will not have the problem again.

In Talking to Keith I don't think he "HATES DRIVING THE CAR" he said to me that he likes the way it drives it is just different than his old leaf spring set up.

[Sieg]

Drag valving on a PT Car.........:bitchslap: :bang: :D

[DBasher]

This is why I didn't mention names, always another side to the story. Just a group of guys shooting the sh1t in a parking lot...talking about broken parts.

Glad you both are getting it worked out, looks like a well built and fun car.

Ron Sutton should start a business helping people build and tune these cars:confused59: He's everywhere!

:thumbsup:
Dan

[bret]

You are talking about Keith from Custom Works, I should probably clarify and add to the info you posted. We have been looking at the torque arm that came out of the car, and have pretty much determined the cause. Keith runs Afco double adjustable shocks. the valving on them (according to Afco is a Drag Race set up) is SUPER soft and he was experiencing brake wheel hop (we never see this and even Ron Sutton who I asked for a non bias opinion said flat out "no way you should be getting any brake hop from a torque arm unless the shocks are too soft or too firm). due to the shock not being able to control the rear suspension. This in turn transferred into the torque arm and the metal was deformed and stressed to a point that it tore. we have NEVER seen this in all the time we have been building the torque arm 6 years now, you know how my Nova gets Driven.... and there have been no issues. we have addressed the issue by supplying a different set of shocks for Keith to try and I am positive he will not have the problem again.

In Talking to Keith I don't think he "HATES DRIVING THE CAR" he said to me that he likes the way it drives it is just different than his old leaf spring set up.

Yep...there is always another side to it. Its frustrating for any of us manufacturer or consumer] to become a victim of an unusual combination. As a manufacturer, who would have thought that the customer would be using a soft drag racing style valving on a autocross/road course? As a consumer, who would have thought it mattered?

I think both designs have a lot of merit and would work nicely in any car they were optimized for. This is more than just a politically correct statement. If there was a CLEAR advantage to one over the other, one of us would have changed over to it by now.

In EVERY engineering project, one must start by deciding the priority of the performance criteria, knowing that as the project goes along you may have to re-evaluate those priorities. In no particular order, weight, fitment, manufacturability, price point, tunability [and the customers ability to tune] and ultimate performance all go into this mix. Every manufacturer has their own [valid] idea of the correct priority.

Although I am familiar with the torque arm design concept, I do not pretend to be well versed on it because I have not spent years living with it. I have however raced against cars using this design. The self serving part of me wants to tout that we have always run right with those cars. The reality is that those cars have always run right with us too :)

So, which is better?

Carry on...

[Blake Foster]

Drag valving on a PT Car.........:bitchslap: :bang: :D

Well in the customers defence Afco did not provide any valving information or dyno sheet (from what I am being told) so it may have been hard to know if they were correct.
The shocks I sent him are Ridetech single adjustables so we know there wont be an issue with the shock going forward, if there is he can call Bret!!! lol

[Ron Sutton]

You guys are awesome.

:cheers:

[Sieg]

As a consumer, who would have thought it mattered?

If there was a CLEAR advantage to one over the other, one of us would have changed over to it by now.

The self serving part of me wants to tout that we have always run right with those cars. The reality is that those cars have always run right with us too :)

So, which is better?

Carry on...
Lack of consumer knowledge regarding shock valving is a major challenge. I'm continually surprised at the number of people I come across that have been longtime motorcycle or car enthusiasts yet have very little understanding of shock function and valving, let alone how critical it is regarding comfort or performance. Of the two groups the ones who best understand it are the faster off-road motorcyclists.

There are numerous avenues to get to the same destination aren't there. :D

Tell me which oil is better and.........:lol:

[Sieg]

Well in the customers defence Afco did not provide any valving information or dyno sheet (from what I am being told) so it may have been hard to know if they were correct.
The shocks I sent him are Ridetech single adjustables so we know there won't be an issue with the shock going forward, if there is he can call Bret!!! lol

I'd think the feel (squat) would be dramatic. It begs the question: What shock does he have up front? :sieg:

PS - Nice pass! :lmao:

[Sieg]

You guys are awesome.

:cheers:

We are very fortunate to have them both!

Friendly competition is the best competition. :thumbsup:

[CURVES]

You are talking about Keith from Custom Works, I should probably clarify and add to the info you posted. We have been looking at the torque arm that came out of the car, and have pretty much determined the cause. Keith runs Afco double adjustable shocks. the valving on them (according to Afco is a Drag Race set up) is SUPER soft and he was experiencing brake wheel hop (we never see this and even Ron Sutton who I asked for a non bias opinion said flat out "no way you should be getting any brake hop from a torque arm unless the shocks are too soft or too firm). due to the shock not being able to control the rear suspension. This in turn transferred into the torque arm and the metal was deformed and stressed to a point that it tore. we have NEVER seen this in all the time we have been building the torque arm 6 years now, you know how my Nova gets Driven.... and there have been no issues. we have addressed the issue by supplying a different set of shocks for Keith to try and I am positive he will not have the problem again.

In Talking to Keith I don't think he "HATES DRIVING THE CAR" he said to me that he likes the way it drives it is just different than his old leaf spring set up.


Blake,

Would the shock contribute to excessive noise transmitted thru the torque arm?
I know noise was something Keith was talking about. I'm not sure what gear set he has, I know you mentioned that some gears are noisier than others.

[Blake Foster]

Blake,

Would the shock contribute to excessive noise transmitted thru the torque arm?
I know noise was something Keith was talking about. I'm not sure what gear set he has, I know you mentioned that some gears are noisier than others.

We have done lots of testing with rubber mounting and Delrin bushings, there is some noise associated with the driveline/suspension but when we tried rubber bushings there was NO NOTICABLE decrease in the noise, I will say we have a 69 here in the shop that has all Ridetech suspension in it 4 link, front truturn, shocks and it TOO is noisy............. so you tell me.

I don't think the shock itself would ADD or Reduce the transfer of noise. we have tried it both ways. I do keep going back to the Explanation and example of the OEM'S, they spend countless millions to reduce and eliminate noise and vibrations in NEW cars, I watched a show where Aston Martin uses a "Dynamat" type material to help eliminate noise in the DB but it is all computer designed shapes and they use a template to locate it and it is all tested in a sound room. I mean really!! so then we want a 45 year old car to be the same or close, but we go and put LS engines and t56's and 9" rear ends and solid body bushings and and and . The car was loud when it was new............... Keith mentioned that the sound changed when he installed the Torque arm, I don't know if he did a new rear end at the same time and what else. I know from experience driving my Nova that there are lots of noises, the tires Falken Azens are probably the biggest culprit. I had a set of Continental Slicks on all 4 corners for some testing and honestly the car was so quite you would think it wasn't running ???? mine has a slight rear end whine but I mean slight, in 5th and 6th gear if your cruising and apply throttle the trans makes a crazy grinding vibration sound till it gets loaded up (maybe 1-1.5 seconds) and then its fine. it has always done this?? do I care. not really but other than that the car is loud, Exhaust, wind noise, STEREO!! it's LOUD, the WIFE yelling at me to SLOW DOWN!!
Not sure if all this matters but it maybe sheds some light on the question. these cars are not NEW and I don't care what you do to them they will never be like a new car.

[CURVES]

Understood.

I for one, enjoy the heavy duty mechanical noise as long as it's not destructive noise.

I also like my passengers to be a bit frightened! :lol:


BTW: Keith did do a new 9"

[Sieg]

I watched a show where Aston Martin uses a "Dynamat" type material to help eliminate noise in the DB but it is all computer designed shapes and they use a template to locate it and it is all tested in a sound room.
I was fixated on the tv watching that show. What amazed me on the sound dampening was they used the Dynamat type product cut out in the shape of cartoon lightning bolts and strategically placed them on the sheet metal panels vs doing the entire panel and adding unnecessary pounds to the car.

[Blake Foster]

Understood.

I for one, enjoy the heavy duty mechanical noise as long as it's not destructive noise.

I also like my passengers to be a bit frightened! :lol:


BTW: Keith did do a new 9"

So how do we know if that is not the issue? all new suspension with a NEW 9" What gears? maybe the 9" is really loud??? hard to compare an aftermarket 9" with a stock 10/12 bolt with factory gears?? if that is what he had.

[CURVES]

I thought he might just be hearing his new rearend, then I wondered if soft shock settings that could tear parts apart might cause excess noise by changing angles too much......

Like you said hard to know

[Blake Foster]

so Just an update. Keith had the car at an auto X this week end with the new shocks. and ....................... Problem solved. said the car felt more stable and planted. now he just needs to replace the front shocks.

[Ron Sutton]

so Just an update. Keith had the car at an auto X this week end with the new shocks. and ....................... Problem solved. said the car felt more stable and planted. now he just needs to replace the front shocks.

Cool!

[ironworks]

I also think a unibody car is gonna make more noise then a separate chassis car when you add stiff racing parts to the car. Just my 2 cents.

As far as the real difference between then 4 link and the torque arm. I think in the end they are really for all intensive purposes going to feel the same when done. What do you want and what is going to fit your specific application the best.

[Rod P]

....................... Problem solved

really? :stirthepot: did we replace Keith also? :lmao:

[Blake Foster]

really? :stirthepot: did we replace Keith also? :lmao:

LOL not Yet!!

[ks71z28]

Well I guess this is where i chime in....

The noise is due to gear noise being transmitted and amplified up the TA into the floor right were you sit. It is aweful when there is a light load on the drivetrain, ie cruise. We never addressed this, and yes we run a fullfloat 9" with trutrac.

The TA failed because of insufficient shock valving. The shocks we used were top quality AFCO shocks, double adjustable. Not an actual drag shock with no rebound. With that being said, the shocks are likely a bit too soft on the rebound side, and will be addressed or replaced, Rodney what did you lose my number? The hop occurred under very hard braking on poor surfaces when approaching a stop. This actualy bent the TA in the opposite direction, and found the weakest link in the arm, then tore. Thank God it didn't completely fail while driving.

Blake furnished us with a shock/spring package to try, and a new beefed up TA. We went from 225 to 300# rear springs. and a custom valved set of ridetech single adj shox. The ride was horrible. We started with the rebound in the middle. After 6 runs, we backed off the rebound about 5 clicks from the middle setting, and the car responded well by freeing up the rear instead of overpowering the front end. The rear was really hooked up, almost too much corner bite. We actually had the rear of the car hop mid corner, and softening the rebound helped this well. I was more pleased with the car than I had been since we put the set up in. Then I hopped in Sean's car which has my old leafspring set up in it and ran about .5 seconds faster.

So when we got home and unloaded the car, I found the panhard mount was nearly broken off the rear crossmember/shock mount. Yikes. Likely from the side loading, stiff shocks, etc. Again glad it didn't completely fail while driving. We shared this info with Blake to consider making changes to the durability of the panhard mount.

As of right now, our car is still broken, and our season cut short. We will fix it and make some improvements, which we haven't completely come up with a game plan.

In conclusion. We chose Speedtech TA because we didn't feel we had the time or resources to design our own rear set up and Speedtech has a good reputation and are a bunch of good guys whom we have built a relationship with over the past few years. We also wanted a product to offer to our customers to compliment the rest of our product line. We only sell stuff we run at custom works. The installation of the TA was a breeze. Fit and finish is very high. on a average street driven car, this set up would be great, especially on a mini tub big tire car. We run our car to the limits, and apparently slightly beyond! I'm confident that this has been a good learning experience for ALL of us. We will see you guys NEXT season.

Keith Smith
Custom Works Performance

Mike- thanks for pointing this thread out for me

[Sieg]

Well said Keith - appreciate the detail, honesty, and understanding. Good luck getting it sorted so you can hammer it like you obviously enjoy doing. :thumbsup:

[Rod P]

Rodney what did you lose my number?

ha ha ha ha No..:twak: ..just in a thrash with working towards SEMA...

[OLDFLM]

... runs Afco double adjustable shocks. the valving on them (according to Afco is a Drag Race set up) is SUPER soft ... and even Ron Sutton... said flat out "no way you should be getting any brake hop from a torque arm unless the shocks are too soft or too firm). due to the shock not being able to control the rear suspension.

:ohsnap: I'm running AFCO double adjustable shocks with my BMR TA. Although I've experienced no wheel hop as of yet it sounds like I need a set of RideTechs with Ron's secret sauce! :waveflag:

[GregWeld]

Ron Sutton should start a business helping people build and tune these cars:confused59: He's everywhere!

:thumbsup:
Dan



Yeah — he really should just go away, and stay away, and stop flapping his lips.

Or as a customer once told me as I walked in to the shop - and he’s pointing his finger at the door I just walked thru —- I’ll give you an order! Get out! Stay out! And don’t come back! 😂