69 Camaro Convertible All Wheel Drive

[hughmullersa]

Hey Fellow Lateral-G Members
Been awhile since i posted
So here is goes last year I was preparing to start my All Wheel Drive Camaro and life happened. Things have kinda settle now so now i can get back to my project and get peoples input and advice.

So the build is as follow 1969 Camaro RS Convertible
Project Plan:
Convert to a All Wheel Drive (Audi Quattro S6 Drivetrain Front and Rear Suspension. Why? Well I have the whole Drivetrain and Motor and Box management system etc.
Intall the Audi 5.2L V10 with the 6speed Tiptronic transmission with DBW and Paddle Shifts standard. Maybe install turbos but that later.

Body wise keep her very stock other then a few subtle changes like the Flush mount header bow of the top.
Speed Actuated Rear spoiler from a 2013 Audi TT.

So where I need help right now since i don't want to reinvent the well is either a CAD or Solidworks drawing of a 69 Full Frame so that i an look at the mods that need to be done for the front and the rear suspension.

So hoping someone out there can aid and assist me

Oh yea another very important point is I am doing this build out of South Africa
and I will upload plenty pics as the build starts

Thank you and later

[fleetus macmullitz]

Not often you can say 'That's a one-of-a kind '69 Camaro'...but you'll be able to. :)

Welcome back. :thumbsup:

[hughmullersa]

Thanks
that the plan to think out of the box and build something unique
Will post some pics tomorrow as she stands with motor spoiler etc

its 6pm here time to turn the pc off and family time

[96z28ss]

CAD data of the underneath of the car will be hard to find.

[hughmullersa]

Thanks it seems like it's gonna be that way
Guess I will have to put the body on a body roller and make my own cad file
And reinvent the full frame chassis

[JB400]

Have you asked Art Morrison?

[hughmullersa]

Tried reaching out to date no reply
Same from guys at Roadster shop to

Totally understand it there business and it's there IP

[Rick D]

Sound like a very cool project, can't wait to see it come together! I'm NOT a cad guy so I can't help there but why not just get the body on the jig, setup the front and rear suspension to the wheel base you need for the Camaro and start to measure?

I know I'm making sound soooo simple but that's how it was done long before we had CAD and all the other fancy computer stuff??

[fleetus macmullitz]

Tried reaching out to date no reply
Same from guys at Roadster shop to

Totally understand it there business and it's there IP

Art's son is on here...you could send him a pm.

CraigMorrison
Lateral-g Supporting Vendor

Rodger Lee aka 'Ironworks' is on here too.

[hughmullersa]

Sound like a very cool project, can't wait to see it come together! I'm NOT a cad guy so I can't help there but why not just get the body on the jig, setup the front and rear suspension to the wheel base you need for the Camaro and start to measure?

I know I'm making sound soooo simple but that's how it was done long before we had CAD and all the other fancy computer stuff??

the reason I am going the CAD route is to try and and be as accurate as possible and also if something doesnt quiet work out so well least I am able to tweak it a bit on Solidworks also I can then simulate alot of things

Just like we were taught growing measure measure measure then measure again and finally cut

[hughmullersa]

so guys here you go a few pictures of the the components that are going to be used
and then a little overlay image as most people say a post like this is useless without pictures

[ironworks]

Art's son is on here...you could send him a pm.

CraigMorrison
Lateral-g Supporting Vendor

Rodger Lee aka 'Ironworks' is on here too.

WOW a project like that will be quite an undertaking for someone. There is not chance that someone is going to be able to have a production unit for that engine/drivetrain combo. Some one will have to develop the car to work under those guidelines and quite a few more. Just moving the suspension the camaro wheel base is the easy part actually getting everything to sit in the car where you can sit in the car comfortably will be a whole other dynamic. And then trying to make the car sit good will be a whole other challenge.

Lots of people want to do these off the wall combos just to say they did with no consideration of the overall end result of the car. I think if your going to do it you might as well make the end result well thought out and appealing to the eye. I see guys put C6 vette suspension all the way around with stock cradles at full width under first gen Camaros but they sit like a 4x4 truck with a leveling kit and look stupid.

More then likely you will have to narrow the trackwidth of the car, lengthen the wheelbase a bit, and the some how get the engine and drive train to fit behind the front seats with the drive shafts going forward in the passenger compartment without affecting the already short interior space of a 1 gen camaro. And then make it look good at the same time.

If you're interested in having us do some work for you we can, but just be warned a project like this is very very expensive because of the huge about of labor effort involved to get the whole system together. Every aspect of the build needs to be considered from Day 1 of the project.

Plus the hard part about building the entire project in Solidworks is that after that very labor intensive Design work, the scope of your project is to only build one prototype so you better hope what looked like it will work on paper will actually fit a driver comfortably in the car and that it will look good when you stand back and hope the stance looks good from down the street. Designing the car is Solidworks just speeds up the process you still have to test the design with a prototype to then be able to go aback and modify the design. That is where the R&D phase of the design process comes in. And that is why it costs the OEM's tens or Hundreds of millions to design a new car to build alot of them. In a project like this your building only one car.

[hughmullersa]

So to give everyone a little more information
doing research and sitting with Audi South Africa you is prepared to assist me in a large amount of the Audi Components
We have been able to establish some really good metrics

Firstly the 69 Camaro and the S6 have the same track width and wheel-base so that is a real real big Score.
I have lucky with the Audi drivetrain been able to to get both the front and the rear suspension cradles for the Suspension location in relation to the motor transmission etc.
We have confirmed with Audi I have the complete engine and drivetrain management system with the diagnostics ecu and On Screen Display.
Also have the ebrake, ABS, Launch control and Variable Speed Air Suspension.
have the complete steering setup to.

Basically what happened was this Audi S6 was being hauled up from Cape town to Johannesburg and in transit the top deck of the hauler collapsed on the car so I basically bought the entire bottoms section from the salvage yard for $4700.00

[hughmullersa]

WOW a project like that will be quite an undertaking for someone. There is not chance that someone is going to be able to have a production unit for that engine/drivetrain combo. Some one will have to develop the car to work under those guidelines and quite a few more. Just moving the suspension the camaro wheel base is the easy part actually getting everything to sit in the car where you can sit in the car comfortably will be a whole other dynamic. And then trying to make the car sit good will be a whole other challenge.

Lots of people want to do these off the wall combos just to say they did with no consideration of the overall end result of the car. I think if your going to do it you might as well make the end result well thought out and appealing to the eye. I see guys put C6 vette suspension all the way around with stock cradles at full width under first gen Camaros but they sit like a 4x4 truck with a leveling kit and look stupid.

More then likely you will have to narrow the trackwidth of the car, lengthen the wheelbase a bit, and the some how get the engine and drive train to fit behind the front seats with the drive shafts going forward in the passenger compartment without affecting the already short interior space of a 1 gen camaro. And then make it look good at the same time.

If you're interested in having us do some work for you we can, but just be warned a project like this is very very expensive because of the huge about of labor effort involved to get the whole system together. Every aspect of the build needs to be considered from Day 1 of the project.

Plus the hard part about building the entire project in Solidworks is that after that very labor intensive Design work, the scope of your project is to only build one prototype so you better hope what looked like it will work on paper will actually fit a driver comfortably in the car and that it will look good when you stand back and hope the stance looks good from down the street. Designing the car is Solidworks just speeds up the process you still have to test the design with a prototype to then be able to go aback and modify the design. That is where the R&D phase of the design process comes in. And that is why it costs the OEM's tens or Hundreds of millions to design a new car to build alot of them. In a project like this your building only one car.
You have very very valid point and this project has been though about for a very long time
with the ride heights, wheelbases, track width etc been taking into consideration at every single point off the decision.

All your point are very valid the biggest challenge and also why I opted to share the build is to draw on the forums insight and points
And as things progress share thoughts and opinion so I dont end up looking with racing blinker but think of the various option out there

so this what what the approach was going to be from my side

Light the complete Audi drivetrain onto my Flat Chassis Table then jig up all the location and the actual ride height, mounting point and all other relevant data.
Invite a very good friend of my over from a engineering works and let him bring over OptimScan 3D scanner or I take the Setup there to render down

from there start looking and all the structual integrity and replicating what needs to be across.
want to run this vehicle on a full frame front to back

pity i am based in South Africa otherwise it could have been a fun joint project with a few specialist in USA.

As Ironwork mentioned is going to cost I am well aware but I have to be even more cautious since the feeble Rand is competing against the dollar at a rate of almost ZAR11=$1.
Also a reason why I was asking if anyone has a full frame in CAD or Solidworks to start off with

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I can definitely see why you'd go the CAD route with something like this. The all wheel drive adds a layer of complexity and fitting stuff around all those components will be a PITA.

I'd love CAD models for this stuff too....having Solidworks myself. Of course, I can see why people would keep their models to themselves after taking the time to create them.

[hughmullersa]

OBeer
Couldn't agree more, the whole vision for this project is to keep the classic 1st Gen Camaro classic look but bring the rest of the are up into the modern ages with the German engineering after all they are the master in that field why not let a classic piece of Americana benefit.

This will least move it into the realm of Super Muscle cars and will be able to handle and not loose all the power with a 40/60 power split.
seeing as the motor that is going into this Camaro is the same motor that is running in the lambo gallardo

[96z28ss]

Only way to get this to work correctly the first time and the cheapest is to get the car scanned and get all the Audi CAD data you possibly can, or you will have to scan all the Audi suspension components which is a very big job to do with a white light scanner.

[Decline]

Chassis works has fero arm. Which is basically a scan. Doubt they'll give up their data tho. Otherwise pay for a scan. You might have to do it the old fashioned way with plumb bobs and rulers based of a full frame chassis such as shwarts or roadster shop. It won't be cheap and it won't be easy but being new never is.
(Side note I'm a OEM design engineer who's worked for electric car company's so I've seen power train integration)

[hughmullersa]

Yeah I am aware
I assumed when I put out the initial request that it may have been a little futile
I know a lot of builders do this for business purposes , I just thought that someone was willing to share info for a one off build that is way out of the box and not the norm

Least I have the shell will put her onto the rotisserie flip her sideways and take measurements and then with all this info and info from Audi I will build my own custom frame

They say if you want something done do it yourself will just take a little longer :)

What this space as the build progresses

[Che70velle]

I will be watching, for sure.
I had no idea that the engine in those cars was so far in front of the axle centerline. Am I looking at that correctly? Probably not...
It doesn't appear to me that the cooling units will be able to sit in a normal location for a camaro, because the engine will be so far forward, but that is obviously the least of your problems at this time. I can't wait to see your progress in this build.

[hughmullersa]

Yes the motor does sit a little further forward but the is still space for cooling
Since it's a full serpentine kit in from
So no fans or that to worry about very snug fit though

[hughmullersa]

Correction no engine mounted fans, front mount on radiator to be clear