Ls6 to 69 camaro conversion kit

[69lsvert]

This is my first time doing this so be easy with me. What are some budget friendly options for putting ls6/tremec into a 1969 convertible? Motor trans come with pedals and all accessories and comp. Thanks in advance.

[jwcarguy]

can use a bit more information to help you out

Your 69':
stock subframe? springs?
engine / trans combo in it now?
existing wiring / fuel / exhaust system original?
factory A/C car?

The LS6/ Tremec:
what year and model car is it out of?
sounds like it is a complete drop out


Knowing this info will help in showing you what is available and your options

Jeff

[69lsvert]

1969 camaro convertible small block 4 speed car. Stock subframe stock springs tubular a arms 2" drop spindles, stock type power steering no rack.Car is completely apart and going on rotisserie in the next few weeks.
Motor that's going in is a 04 ctsV ls6/6 speed. Comes with usual pedals and harness ready to drop in.
Now I'm starting from scratch with all this. I had bought a new gas tank and lines for a small block to go back in so I'll need info on fuel pump and supply lines or another gas tank.
Going back with stock console that has gauges in it and stock dash that a tic tock tach.
No exhaust now so need info on that too.
Wiring is being replaced with new (need info for that took if there's one that's user friendly to my project) meaning the whole cars wiring harness.
Rear suspension is stock 12 bolt with multi leafs and trying to decide on 4 link or shock relocation but that's another subject.
All this is being done in my garage with the exception of spraying car.
So I need info on a lot of stuff

[jwcarguy]

1969 camaro convertible small block 4 speed car. Stock subframe stock springs tubular a arms 2" drop spindles, stock type power steering no rack.Car is completely apart and going on rotisserie in the next few weeks.
Motor that's going in is a 04 ctsV ls6/6 speed. Comes with usual pedals and harness ready to drop in.
Now I'm starting from scratch with all this. I had bought a new gas tank and lines for a small block to go back in so I'll need info on fuel pump and supply lines or another gas tank.
Going back with stock console that has gauges in it and stock dash that a tic tock tach.
No exhaust now so need info on that too.
Wiring is being replaced with new (need info for that took if there's one that's user friendly to my project) meaning the whole cars wiring harness.
Rear suspension is stock 12 bolt with multi leafs and trying to decide on 4 link or shock relocation but that's another subject.
All this is being done in my garage with the exception of spraying car.
So I need info on a lot of stuff


With your stock sub frame, you will have fitment issues with CTS-V accessory drive with both the alternator and factory a/c compressor (though you may not even be using that)
The CTS-V drive puts the alternator low on the LH side and unless you either move the engine forward or notch the frame, it will hit
May consider selling off the CTS-v drive and going to a Corvette accessory drive, which moves the alternator up top on the LH side
the factory harness would have to be modified to be a "stand alone" setup
A complete drop out engine & trans is not "ready to drop in" by any means
Or buy a new aftermarket harness that fits your application
You can decide then if you want to run the DBW (drive by wire) throttle body or switch over the a cable style (verify if the pcm that you are using has the necessary "drivers" to convert to cable TB (IAC and TPS are different circuits) can have a harness made to your needs

You can use your stock small block frame stands, but choose a quality set of engine plates/ mounts, ones that "work" with corresponding parts and don't cause fitment issues
The CTS-V oil pan will not fit your stock sub either, look at either a Mast or Holley conversion oil pan kit, (just for example)
Again, a good quality set of headers, that "work" fit the engine plates, oil pan and also the steering box that you are using

You can use the new stock fuel tank that you bought, but not the best choice and will take some work/ cutting to fit a retro fit elec fuel pump module (ie Aeromotive Phantom), due to your stock tank isn't recessed very much on top to accommodate the fuel pump
Look at a Tanks Inc EFI tank setup, stock capacity, powder coated, electric pump and sender is approx $450

The T56 from the CTS-V has a totally different tail housing/ output shaft setup, it does not have the traditional slip yoke, it has a 3 bolt flange (similar to a Gen 5)
Check with some reputable trans shops and see what the cost is to convert the tail housing/ output shaft setup, compared to both what you already have into it, if it needs to be rebuilt (recommended) and the value of selling it off and picking up a rebuilt LS/ F-body style T56 (outright Stage 2 rebuilt unit is approx $2400 w/ bell)

speaking of the T56, you should look into a quality (see the pattern here!) crossmember designed for this conversion
I am personally running the SpeedTech/ATS T56 crossmember and love it
I was around back when they first came out and still is one of the best crossmembers out there, you can give the guys at SpeedTech a call and pick one up along with their clutch master cylinder firewall mounting bracket

drive shaft will have to be made after rest of drivetrain is in place

and you mentioned wiring, if it still is the original 45 yr old wiring, replace it! Don't skimp on this, it is a safety issue!
I recommend the "Classic Update" kit from American Autowire "AAW" a few vendors here are even running specials on the complete kit, it does the whole car (still need a stand alone engine harness/ pcm though)

Please let us know if you have any other questions

Jeff

[jwcarguy]

Just a FYI on the CTS-V trans

I have personally dealt with this builder, great to deal with!

http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1736347-t56-sale.html#post18318597

[69lsvert]

Is the ctsv/tremec combo a bad idea for the fbody? Is there a more swap friendly combo? Friend down the road picked up a 69 with 04 gto ls2/6speed is that a better combo?

[jwcarguy]

Is the ctsv/tremec combo a bad idea for the fbody? Is there a more swap friendly combo? Friend down the road picked up a 69 with 04 gto ls2/6speed is that a better combo?


The GTO accessory drive, still places the alternator down low
I wouldn't make just that the deciding factor if you come across a deal
You can always sell off the drive that you don't use and recoup some money to buy one that works better for your application
The GTO T56 is comparable to the f-body style, just different shifter setup

[69lsvert]

Ok, I will go ahead and get the ctsv combo and start a check list of things I need to do. I still am confused on a lot of things about this swap. Can you help with a check list of where to start? Like harness or motor mounts or fuel supply oil pan. Things I've ran into like a lot of questions come a lot of answers and opinions. Threads I've read on swap stuff some are old and company's have changed a lot of things so it's hard to get an idea of what works and won't work.
Sounds like you have a lot of knowledge about this and I thank you for your help.

[jwcarguy]

Ok, I will go ahead and get the ctsv combo and start a check list of things I need to do. I still am confused on a lot of things about this swap. Can you help with a check list of where to start? Like harness or motor mounts or fuel supply oil pan. Things I've ran into like a lot of questions come a lot of answers and opinions. Threads I've read on swap stuff some are old and company's have changed a lot of things so it's hard to get an idea of what works and won't work.
Sounds like you have a lot of knowledge about this and I thank you for your help.

Not a problem

You should set a budget to stick with (written out or spreadsheet works)

Many people have a "ballpark" budget and dont keep track of items, due to them seeing something "new and shiny" and they have to have it, but then they overspend when it is not needed or warranted, then fall short on having the funds to move forward and get key parts for their build!

Have to stay focused and ask alot of questions if unsure

Just because it is posted on the internet, doesn't make it true / correct
Even if posted by a "shop" ??

This site is better than others for that, but I have seen where a "shop" will post how to do a task and it is totally incorrect, unsafe or a hack job!

I have had people over to my place showing the work that a "shop" did on thier LS swap, best I can say to them is, "well they go it in the car"???
(unsafe wiring, fuel system, engine mounting,incorrect driveline angles etc, etc)

Do your homework/ research!

there is a lot of quality people, shop owners and vendors/ manufacturers here that are willing to help

[Snipe00]

Check out this book (http://www.amazon.com/Swap-Engines-into-Camaros-Firebirds/dp/1613250312/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405329008&sr=8-1&keywords=ls+camaro+swap+book). I plan on doing the swap in future so i bought this to read through.

[Moose]

With your stock sub frame, you will have fitment issues with CTS-V accessory drive with both the alternator and factory a/c compressor (though you may not even be using that)
The CTS-V drive puts the alternator low on the LH side and unless you either move the engine forward or notch the frame, it will hit
May consider selling off the CTS-v drive and going to a Corvette accessory drive, which moves the alternator up top on the LH side
the factory harness would have to be modified to be a "stand alone" setup
A complete drop out engine & trans is not "ready to drop in" by any means
Or buy a new aftermarket harness that fits your application
You can decide then if you want to run the DBW (drive by wire) throttle body or switch over the a cable style (verify if the pcm that you are using has the necessary "drivers" to convert to cable TB (IAC and TPS are different circuits) can have a harness made to your needs

You can use your stock small block frame stands, but choose a quality set of engine plates/ mounts, ones that "work" with corresponding parts and don't cause fitment issues
The CTS-V oil pan will not fit your stock sub either, look at either a Mast or Holley conversion oil pan kit, (just for example)
Again, a good quality set of headers, that "work" fit the engine plates, oil pan and also the steering box that you are using

You can use the new stock fuel tank that you bought, but not the best choice and will take some work/ cutting to fit a retro fit elec fuel pump module (ie Aeromotive Phantom), due to your stock tank isn't recessed very much on top to accommodate the fuel pump
Look at a Tanks Inc EFI tank setup, stock capacity, powder coated, electric pump and sender is approx $450

The T56 from the CTS-V has a totally different tail housing/ output shaft setup, it does not have the traditional slip yoke, it has a 3 bolt flange (similar to a Gen 5)
Check with some reputable trans shops and see what the cost is to convert the tail housing/ output shaft setup, compared to both what you already have into it, if it needs to be rebuilt (recommended) and the value of selling it off and picking up a rebuilt LS/ F-body style T56 (outright Stage 2 rebuilt unit is approx $2400 w/ bell)

speaking of the T56, you should look into a quality (see the pattern here!) crossmember designed for this conversion
I am personally running the SpeedTech/ATS T56 crossmember and love it
I was around back when they first came out and still is one of the best crossmembers out there, you can give the guys at SpeedTech a call and pick one up along with their clutch master cylinder firewall mounting bracket

drive shaft will have to be made after rest of drivetrain is in place

and you mentioned wiring, if it still is the original 45 yr old wiring, replace it! Don't skimp on this, it is a safety issue!
I recommend the "Classic Update" kit from American Autowire "AAW" a few vendors here are even running specials on the complete kit, it does the whole car (still need a stand alone engine harness/ pcm though)

Please let us know if you have any other questions

Jeff




This guy knows his stuff!!!:confused59:

[69lsvert]

Yes he does. I'm willing to learn all this stuff and he's the man to teach me. If searched a lot on this and still am confused on it and I'm just gonna take it one nut bolt and wire at a time. This needs to be a sticky thread or whatever you call it at the top of the lsx swap page. But with so different cars and applications it would be a long one.
I bought my ls6 and 6 speed this morning and should get it towards the end of the week. I'm excited to see what Jeff was referring to as far as notching my frame for the accessory drive alt/ac. Mine was just done in fresh paint, oh well I've got more paint.

[jwcarguy]

Yes he does. I'm willing to learn all this stuff and he's the man to teach me. If searched a lot on this and still am confused on it and I'm just gonna take it one nut bolt and wire at a time. This needs to be a sticky thread or whatever you call it at the top of the lsx swap page. But with so different cars and applications it would be a long one.
I bought my ls6 and 6 speed this morning and should get it towards the end of the week. I'm excited to see what Jeff was referring to as far as notching my frame for the accessory drive alt/ac. Mine was just done in fresh paint, oh well I've got more paint.


I only mentioned, that to use the accessory drive that you have from the CTS-V, that it may interfere with your stock sub frame and that some people notch the frame for clearance

I personally don't like to notch the frame for clearance, but rather go with a different accessory drive kit that fits your application better (ie Corvette style)

Especially if your frame is already done and painted, why go backwards

Granted, it is easy for me to say to buy a different drive kit and sell yours, since it isn't my money! LOL

These are some of the choices that only you will be able to make, given what your set budget and of course your skill set will dictate

Hope this clarifies things?

Jeff

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

On the accessory drive.

I used an 04 GTO takeout engine and transmission. I needed to notch the sub frame but for me, that was preferable to paying an exorbitant amount of money for a new drive. Accessory drives are unreasonably expensive for what they are, IMHO.

Also, look into Kwik Performance. They make brackets to mount your AC up high on the passenger side and make different alternator/power steering brackets as well. They're pretty competitive pricewise since you keep the rest of your stock drive.

Engine mounts, frame stands and headers are going to be the biggest PITA to figure out if you don't get it in "kit" form. There were 3 different frame stands in '69 and at least 2 different mounts. This will become a big deal as far as how high your engine sits and therefore how low your headers are going to hang and whether or not you will need to modify your transmission tunnel.

[jwcarguy]

On the accessory drive.

I used an 04 GTO takeout engine and transmission. I needed to notch the sub frame but for me, that was preferable to paying an exorbitant amount of money for a new drive. Accessory drives are unreasonably expensive for what they are, IMHO.

Also, look into Kwik Performance. They make brackets to mount your AC up high on the passenger side and make different alternator/power steering brackets as well. They're pretty competitive pricewise since you keep the rest of your stock drive.

Engine mounts, frame stands and headers are going to be the biggest PITA to figure out if you don't get it in "kit" form. There were 3 different frame stands in '69 and at least 2 different mounts. This will become a big deal as far as how high your engine sits and therefore how low your headers are going to hang and whether or not you will need to modify your transmission tunnel.



I mentioned a GM Corvette accessory drive
They are very reasonable, as compared to the aftermarket accessory drive kits
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19257325/10002/-1

Here is a pic of my personal 68' w/ Vette accessory drive kit

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I mentioned a GM Corvette accessory drive
They are very reasonable, as compared to the aftermarket accessory drive kits
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19257325/10002/-1

Definitely way better priced than a lot of the afermarket stuff, I totally agree. Plus, staying with stock GM that you can get at any stealership is really a good idea in general. However, even that kit is nearly $700 with the harmonic balancer though. Compare that to "free" (using the accessory drive you already have) and that's a lot of scratch you could use to buy headers or something.

If I didn't have an accessory drive (crate engine or what-have-you) the Vette drive would be high on my list. The high mount alternator is kind of fugly though. Not sure If I could get past that. On the other hand, my AC is high on my build and I got past that. Price and form/function over looks is usually my route.

Just for reference, here's the notch I had to take out. This should help with a decision either way.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=546530&postcount=47

First picture in that post.

[69lsvert]

Thanks guys for all the info. Much appreciated!

[69lsvert]

Got my motor and trans in yesterday! Boy I'm gonna have lots of questions.

[69lsvert]

Ordered my install kit from Holley. Bracket kit to move alt and ac to top of motor instead of notching frame. Got motor mount adapters just need some motor mounts from 73 camaro to go with that. Got there long tube ceramic headers and transmission crossmember. Also got the Holley oil pan. I'm hoping it all fits together and goes in smooth. I'll let you know and post some part numbers later.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Taken from a PM, but thought it should be on the forum for others to find useful information...

Thanks for all the info. I decided to go with Holley on all my stuff, mounts, adapters,crossmember,headers, oil pan.
Now another question. All this is new to me so bear with me. The computer and harness what do I need to do with it. The guy at Holley said he had a comp and harness for 1750 and I passed.

You already have a computer (PCM) and a harness?

Do you want to tackle modifying the harness yourself?

If the answer to the previous 2 questions is "yes", then you have some decisions to make.

First, I'm not exactly an "expert" on this stuff. However; I just completed my build so it's fresh in my mind and I've learned about some stuff I'd do differently the next time.

So, think of all the stuff you want to eliminate. Most likely that will be rear o2 sensors, EVAP system, skip shift (CAGS). It's also mandatory to have VATS (Vehicle Anti Theft System) deleted or your engine will only run for a few seconds and shut off.

Second, think of what you'd like the PCM to control (Besides the engine). If you plan on using the PCM to control your fans for instance. What about the reverse lockout? Will you install cruise control? Do you want the PCM to control your AC system if you have it (Recommended for idle control).

After you've decided on that stuff, you will need to send off your PCM to a reputable person that can reprogram it for you (unless you want to buy $1K worth of software and learn it yourself). Work with this person and get everything fleshed out that you want. When he/she is finished they should be able to provide you with a pinout and a wiring diagram. I was able to get someone to do mine for under $300 which included a base tune for my modifications (CAI, 3" exhaust and LT headers). I would also recommend buying a second computer. I was able to get mine from a junk yard on car-part.com for about $25. This way you can have one in your car and send the other one back for tuning and you won't be dead in the water. Also, after all is said and done, you'll have a backup.

When you have the pinout, you can start modifying the harness. The first thing is to remove all of the loom and then to remove all the wires you won't need. After that, (and I learned this the hard way) wait until you install your engine and other components. At that time, decide where you want to put the PCM and lengthen or shorten wires as desired. You'll also either need to use the fuse and relay box from the donor car or buy one. I got this one from Current Performance:
http://www.currentperformance.com/Accessories/SA-1k.html

Basically, the above kit is the crossover from PCM and engine to your car. It's the piece that makes your harness "stand alone".

Doing this isn't exactly "easy" but it's not really as difficult as you first think. I was scared my first time doing this but now I wouldn't hesitate to do it again as opposed to spending $1k on buying it premade.

Of course, there is always the option to buy a harness from PSI, Current performance, Speartech or what-have-you. Even GM has their own kits you can buy now.

The bonus about working with a tuner is that they can set it up almost exactly how you want it. My PCM has partial code from a Savana Van, Corvette, CTS-V and GTO. All working to give the control I wanted. For instance, a GTO doesn't have fan control through the PCM, it uses the BCM (body control module) so the code that controls my fans is from the van. My AC fan control is actually from a GM prototype vehicle. I wouldn't have known the first place to start without my tuner.

You could just control the fans with a thermostat and the AC with whatever kit your using but it's way nicer to have the PCM take care of all of that and it makes a lot more sense from the engines perspective as it should idle up for AC for instance, and it already has a coolant temperature sensor, so why not use that for the fans? I like it as integrated as possible.

Anyway, it's a lot to think about. The planning is key. You really need to decide exactly how you want to do it.

For a perspective on whether you want to do it yourself or purchase something. I spent about $400 total on my PCM programming and harness modifications. I also put in about 20 hours of my time.

Hope this helps!

[jeeper90]

Check out this book (http://www.amazon.com/Swap-Engines-into-Camaros-Firebirds/dp/1613250312/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405329008&sr=8-1&keywords=ls+camaro+swap+book). I plan on doing the swap in future so i bought this to read through.

Is this book worth buying?

[rickpaw]

Going back with stock console that has gauges in it and stock dash that a tic tock tach.


You also need to address the gauges hook up as well, especially the speedo/tach The stock mechanical speedo won't work with the electrical output from the ECU/trans, so you'll need some kind of converter.

I took the easy route and went with Dakota Digital's VHX gauge set up.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I took the easy route and went with Dakota Digital's VHX gauge set up.

Me too. Just connected the wires and ran the setup on the fuel gauge, tach and speedometer. After that, working gauges. (I had a bad brain box the first go around but Dakota took care of it and second one worked flawlessly).

You'll need an OBDII port to wire in as well.

[69lsvert]

Does the Dakota gauges have the console gauge setup like the tach and speedo?

[69lsvert]

Also what transmission mount did you go with for the t56? Prothane looks good. I have the Holley crossmember.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Does the Dakota gauges have the console gauge setup like the tach and speedo?

I got these:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=722/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd722.htm

You also have a choice to get the ones set up for console gauges:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=849/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd849.htm

Or you can get the all digital stuff. Personally I don't like the looks:

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=166/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd166.htm

[rickpaw]

I got these:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=722/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd722.htm

You also have a choice to get the ones set up for console gauges:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=849/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd849.htm

Or you can get the all digital stuff. Personally I don't like the looks:

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=166/category_id=422/mode=prod/prd166.htm

x1. Unless you're dead set on original look.

[MaxHarvard]

Is this book worth buying?

I say it is, but i'm a bit bias ;)

[Carbo]

Just got my LS and will be starting my swap in the next six months. Still doing homework so I'm paying attention to this thread. Keep the info coming.

[69lsvert]

Guys that are thinking about ordering Holley ls/t56 swap, the one I ordered didn't come with trans mount and you have to use a clamshell mount off a 73 camaro. I ordered mine from Summit or probably go to your local auto parts store and get them.
Motor and Trans are going in Saturday so I'll try and post some pics.

[69lsvert]

Well Im finally posting some pictures of the install. Over all it went pretty smooth. The Holley oil pan fits very nice.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Great!

I'm especially interested in how this works using the complete holley kit. I myself used their oil pan and liked it. Where the headers end up for ground clearance will be interesting.

What did you end up using for a transmission?

Also, you might want to start a build thread now, documenting your stuff. Pretty useful to get ideas and to keep a chronicle for future reference.

[69lsvert]

Transmission is going to be the tremec from the ctsv. G force drive shaft, and shortened shifter also from ctsv. Trying to use stock console with guages and it looks like it will work Ill show some pictures when I get done. I'll also hang steering box and headers to show how well they fit.
Guys doing body work are almost done hanging quarters and then the sub frame, motor and trans will come back out so they can get car on rotisserie to clean up the underside of car and coat it with something.
While all that is going on ill order wheels and brakes get wiring and computer to Hawks3rdgen for the harness overhaul and street tune.

[MarkM66]

Transmission is going to be the tremec from the ctsv. G force drive shaft, and shortened shifter also from ctsv. Trying to use stock console with guages and it looks like it will work Ill show some pictures when I get done. I'll also hang steering box and headers to show how well they fit.
Guys doing body work are almost done hanging quarters and then the sub frame, motor and trans will come back out so they can get car on rotisserie to clean up the underside of car and coat it with something.
While all that is going on ill order wheels and brakes get wiring and computer to Hawks3rdgen for the harness overhaul and street tune.

So are you keeping the bolt style flange on the transmission? Are they making a slip style shaft?

[69lsvert]

Gong with flange. This is what gforce offers. I have the trans in but need to get car at ride heigth so I can send them measurements for a drive shaft.
Our cnc machined billet driveshaft adapter allows you to bolt a 1350 series driveshaft to the OEM 3 finger transmission flange.

Adapter mates to Spicer 3-2-119 companion flange that is commonly used in making driveshafts.

Gforce adapters are drilled for the larger 7/16-20 bolts, all hardware included.

Fits GM Camaro, SS, G8, CTSV, HOLDEN VE-VF