Thinking of jumping in but...

[BBBluey]

Hi All,

So I have the bug to jump in and get my dream car...70-71 Firebird.
I've come across an opportunity to buy one but since I'm new to all of this I'm full with emotions and confusion. I initially thought I could take a project on myself but I'm now feeling apprehensive about it.

I uploaded a bit about the current car in mind here:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/108330-WIW-71-Firebird-Formula-350

Would appreciate any info/advice.

[WSSix]

Welcome to the site. I'm not sure since I'm not there to look at it in person. But, given you're new to all this, I think I would start out with spending more for a better car upfront. If this was purely a project car where you could take your time, years, and fix it up, then I would say go for it. Since you're wanting something to DD, I would start out with something that needs less work. That, or lower your expectations of what you want out of it as a DD. By that I mean, are you willing to drive it while it's simply primered and work on it as you can? You'd have to have a second more reliable car to fall back on and DD while this one was getting work done.

I'm all for trying to get your dream car and wish you well in your quest. I'd just hate to see your dream turn into a nightmare if you're expectations are in the proper place.

Good luck.

[Sieg]

Doing the entire project yourself can be a daunting task......but you'll acquire a lot of cool tools along the way. :D

I'd never consider it due to lack of reasonable enclosed work space and the weather here. I'd pick and choose what you enjoy and can reasonably accomplish and go for it.....assuming the shell is not a complete rust bucket. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

What's your savings account look like? Are you currently putting away 3 or 4 thousand per month? A mediocre car restoration is going to be 50 grand in parts alone... so that's hard cash - then there's an additional investment in tools... and TIME.


I'm not trying to burst your bubble -- but the reality of doing this kind of work on these cars is - it's expensive - even doing it yourself. And the car is going to have to be down most of the time. No way to do it correctly while trying to drive it every day. These cars are O - L - D and need cleaning - and in order to do that - things have to be removed. Motors and trannys need to come out to get to the filthiest parts... and the rear end - and suspension needs to be rebuilt with bushings and ball joints etc...

I've been doing this stuff a long time - and I NEVER EVER accomplish in a day what I set out to do. A one day job usually takes two... a three day job takes the whole week.... and frankly - you get tired and there's other things in life that get in the way just when you're really cranking -- you have to clean up for a weekend wedding - or whatever.


Having said all of that --- doing these old dreams is one of the most rewarding things a guy can do... and I never get tired of it. Just beware of what's really involved.


If you don't already have some knowledge and skills --- buy a DONE car.... and just enjoy it and tinker with it.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If its cheap where you can afford to buy and running I'd say go for it BUT....

Keep it running, don't do any crazy mods to it till you can afford to.

Right now you have the opportunity and you may not get the chance again. The worst time to buy a car is when you are looking for one. Finding the car is the hard part. Specially a 71 Formula.

[FETorino]

Hey Welcome.

Nice choice in cars a Formula Bird.

Now keep in mind you always end up selling a car for less than it cost you to build it.

Now remember what I just said, and then read your own quote from PT.

"All the 70-71 birds I'm finding that are turn-key to use as a daily and rust free are way out of my price range."

So this car will end up costing more than those out of your price range.

If that motor was rebuilt before it was parked it sat for a long time without oil circulating and with some valves open and springs fading. So it is just an old motor now. Plus look at the disarray under the hood and dirty air cleaner and ask yourself what was the quality of the rebuild?

That's a $3-4k starter (not worth the $7.5k he is asking IMHO) on a project that will cost 5 to 10 times that to complete without any big modifications.

You said you're not mechanically inclined. Find something closer to done would be my advice.

Go grind this guy down a few grand

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/4547472255.html

Or keep saving your dough.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-455-H-O-Ram-Air-1972-Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-455-H-O-Ram-Air-LS5-/251577038280?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3a9328f5c8&item=251577038280&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

[BBBluey]

If this was purely a project car where you could take your time, years, and fix it up, then I would say go for it. Since you're wanting something to DD, I would start out with something that needs less work. That, or lower your expectations of what you want out of it as a DD. By that I mean, are you willing to drive it while it's simply primered and work on it as you can? You'd have to have a second more reliable car to fall back on and DD while this one was getting work done.
I should've been more clear. I do have my regular car but I would like this Bird to be my DD, meaning not a garage queen or strictly for car shows. I fully intend to drive the heck out of it. Patience will be difficult but that's why I would like a shop to do it.

A mediocre car restoration is going to be 50 grand in parts alone... so that's hard cash - then there's an additional investment in tools... and TIME.
the reality of doing this kind of work on these cars is - it's expensive - even doing it yourself. And the car is going to have to be down most of the time. No way to do it correctly while trying to drive it every day. These cars are O - L - D and need cleaning - and in order to do that - things have to be removed. Motors and trannys need to come out to get to the filthiest parts... and the rear end - and suspension needs to be rebuilt with bushings and ball joints etc...
If you don't already have some knowledge and skills --- buy a DONE car.... and just enjoy it and tinker with it.
50Gs is out of the question. I'm not looking to make this car a Pro-touring type. I just want it clean, nice looking and running so I can drive it everywhere just as if I lived in the 70s. I'd like a shop to do the work, but again nothing extreme of total restoration.
I would love to but can't find a done 71 in my price range. People always want to pay little but sell for a lot and people who own done 71's are typically the ones with $ who are in no hurry or need to sell.

If its cheap where you can afford to buy and running I'd say go for it BUT....
Keep it running, don't do any crazy mods to it till you can afford to.
Right now you have the opportunity and you may not get the chance again. The worst time to buy a car is when you are looking for one. Finding the car is the hard part. Specially a 71 Formula.
See, this is exactly how I'm thinking. If I let this one go...
But I do understand what GregWeld is saying and I don't want to put myself in the position of having sit mths/yrs at a time getting nowhere and then I end up eventually trying to sell it on here.


Now keep in mind you always end up selling a car for less than it cost you to build it. Now remember what I just said, and then read your own quote from PT. "All the 70-71 birds I'm finding that are turn-key to use as a daily and rust free are way out of my price range."
So this car will end up costing more than those out of your price range.

If that motor was rebuilt before it was parked it sat for a long time without oil circulating and with some valves open and springs fading. So it is just an old motor now. Plus look at the disarray under the hood and dirty air cleaner and ask yourself what was the quality of the rebuild?
That's a $3-4k starter (not worth the $7.5k he is asking IMHO) on a project that will cost 5 to 10 times that to complete without any big modifications.
Go grind this guy down a few grand


All good points.
I fully intend to do my best at getting the cost down but I'm pretty sure he won't go that low. He'll put it on ebay before going that low and then I'm certain one of you will buy it. Lol. I seriously doubt you can find a 71 Bird in similar condition for that money. I've searched craiglist like a madman. There are 72 & up, but not 71s.
Am I way out of the park in thinking $10K will get it looking and running nice?
My guesstimate is ~$5K in body work & ~$3K for interior and ~$2K in motor/misc expenses. Again, not show car or street racer but respectable and dependable.

[BBBluey]

Go grind this guy down a few grand

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/4547472255.html

Or keep saving your dough.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-455-H-O-Ram-Air-1972-Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-455-H-O-Ram-Air-LS5-/251577038280?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3a9328f5c8&item=251577038280&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Notice the white San Diego Bird says looks good for it's age? That means it'll still need body/paint + wheels. I can live with brown carpet and the motor did look nice but by the time I'm done with it, if I can get it for 15k, it'll still be ~20Gs and not as nice as the Formula for the same money I think, but what do I know? That's why I'm listening to all of your advice/experience.

The 72 Bird is very nice but I really don't want to spend that much on a car I intend to drive and not keep as an investment/garage trophy. However, maybe in the long run it pays out. But I also think that as I save up, these cars just get more expensive so... that's why I think Vince is on point and this is a 71 Formula (Birth yr)

I did find this one and it's going for ~ the same money everyone is telling me to offer for the Formula. I don't think it's near the same/as good as condition as the Formula so is the asking price correct? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Firebird-custom-1971-pontiac-firebird-400ci-engine-4bbl-carburator-10-bolt-rearend-/331253693030?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d20423a66&item=331253693030&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

[BBBluey]

While we're at it, can anyone look at/inspect the car for me in San Diego?
I've been going off pics as well, I have lots of them but still only pics.

As far as grinding the guy down on price, would it be wrong for me to ask if I can take it to get an estimate from a local body shop? Is that unusual or does it work against me?

[GregWeld]

Am I way out of the park in thinking $10K will get it looking and running nice?
My guesstimate is ~$5K in body work & ~$3K for interior and ~$2K in motor/misc expenses. Again, not show car or street racer but respectable and dependable.



You're so far off it's not funny. I'm not trying to be mean or belittle your dream or desires. You asked for fair and honest opinions and that's what you're getting on here. Nobody is flaming you or the car... we're just "experienced" and know what the heck happens and what things cost and probably understand your expectations even better than you do.


#1 --- Paint alone is your total "thinking" budget for "decent". There WILL be rust repair which could eat that budget alone.


#2 --- Each time you touch one thing - it makes the thing next to it look way worse than it looked prior.

#3 --- Please don't start this project. You just have no idea what you're taking on and it's going to be nothing but a heartache for you.

#4 --- The fact that you want "respectable and dependable" doesn't lower the price of parts or labor vs wanting show quality. Parts is parts. My guesstimate of 50K was based on doing a baseline paint job - motor refresh - tranny and running gear looked at and minimal "bringing it up to road worthy"... and a replacement interior from one of the suppliers not a custom interior. I'm talking about just re-doing the seats and door panels and factory replacement carpet.
Once you paint this - the bumpers and trim will all look really really bad - and you WILL be talked in to fixing that as well - since you're paying labor to remove and replace these parts for paint "anyway".

#5 --- If you wanted it to be "pro-touring" like the cars on here... now you're looking at $150K to 200K or more.

#6 --- Probably the average amount of hours spent re-doing one of these cars from the ground up is 1500.... you can do the math for the rate in your area. But if you're getting paid $40 an hour - and the labor rate in your area is $65 and hour -- you can also do that math for how long it's going to take you to pay the bill.

#7 --- No tools - no skills... and you have to pay to have it worked on. Please just enjoy reading about the builds here and live vicariously. When you do have extra money --- Read "Investing 102" http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=34700 on Lateral-G and then when you're near retirement - you'll be a millionaire and can afford to do one of these dream cars for yourself.

You can not do a car in this condition and have it be anything "respectable" for $10K.... you could probably get SOME dependability going for that... and if you decide to do this car -- go for dependability FIRST.... and pretty LAST. Maybe you could find a buddy that will paint it in his garage... and the materials alone are going to run you a grand and it's most likely going to look pretty Earl Scheibish meaning... you really just wasted your money because you'll never be happy with it.

BEFORE you buy the car ---- ask the seller if he'd be willing to go with you and drive it to a couple shops in your area and discuss what you are thinking about and your budget and time frame. PLEASE DO THIS BEFORE BUYING.... it will really open your eyes.

MAKE SURE to really look around the shop and the other projects going on - and what you're looking for is how much (or how little) the projects in that shop appear to have been there a very long time (how much dust and disarray the parts are in). Is the trunk and interior area just full of parts and boxes? In other words the car is nothing but a storage area... Is the area around the car a working area or does it look like nobody has moved anything around there for months - maybe years....

Here's what happens ------ THE BID to do the work you agreed upon --- is doubled by what is found once work actually begins. I'm not saying this is dishonest -- but rather -- there's really no way to tell what the car "IS" until they begin to work on it. NOW --- since you were scratching to start with --- you're really screwed because work has commenced -- and you were already scraping to come up with the bid money - and that's now doubled... and your car just became the next car that sits there for months which turns into years as you loose your desire and realize there's no way to pay the bill ---- OH --- and you're now being billed $600 per month "storage fee"..... on top the bill you owe. Think about that --- that's $7200 per year for it to just sit there collecting dust.

[Sieg]

^^^^ Sage advice.

[GregWeld]

Get somebody to go look at the white car on Craigs List.... because even if you had to pay full asking price -- that car is FAR cheaper than the one you're looking at -- by at least HALF.


If you want a snorkel hood --- then that's the kind of thing you can do as you have extra dough... because it can be bought - painted to match - and installed on a weekend in a couple hours with simple tools.

RE: BROWN CARPET

That can be turned brand new looking in a couple hours with carpet dye in a spray can -- which works really really well and is almost dumbass proof. Some paper to mask off things you don't want sprayed --- and then a couple cans of the dye - and boom! Black new looking carpet.

RE: Motor area

Looks great to me --- no hackiemotto'd wiring.... no asshat "add ons" -- just a nice clean engine bay.


RE: The '72 on FLEAbay


No need for a 455 Original motor car for a daily driver so why pay extra for that unless you can just afford to.

[FETorino]

50Gs is out of the question. I'm not looking to make this car a Pro-touring type. I just want it clean, nice looking and running so I can drive it everywhere just as if I lived in the 70s.


$50k will get you Brian's shaker scoop on his 71:lmao: Seriously with you doing NONE of the work a ProTouring build will be $150k+


All good points.
I fully intend to do my best at getting the cost down but I'm pretty sure he won't go that low. He'll put it on ebay before going that low and then I'm certain one of you will buy it. Lol.

I seriously doubt you can find a 71 Bird in similar condition for that money. I've searched craiglist like a madman. There are 72 & up, but not 71s.
Am I way out of the park in thinking $10K will get it looking and running nice?
My guesstimate is ~$5K in body work & ~$3K for interior and ~$2K in motor/misc expenses. Again, not show car or street racer but respectable and dependable.

I saw a 71 Formula for $3500 a couple months ago on OC CL. I see a clean white car on SD CL asking $19k which could likely be bought for less.

The fact that you think the engine and misc will be less than the interior shows you are walking into a wall.:bang:

:snapout: the motor in that 71 is junk. It is topped with a crapy air cleaner full of dirt that has been sucking down the carb. The waterpump has been weeping on the front cover, I'm sure the valve seats are screaming for lead and need to be replaced and I'd bet the motor has a nice nylon timing gear just waiting to skip a tooth and eat some parts.

You can't pull and reinstall the motor and even the cheapest rebuild with a PAW kit or some other junk from a shop will be $3500+. That's low end for a pull/install and junk rebuild. Trust me it will cost you way more than that for a proper rebuild.

You aren't even taking into account the worn out rubber bushing in the suspension. :headscratch: Those are cheap until you pay someone to install them.

You trust the brakes in a car that has been sitting and looks like an abandoned soup can? :hairpullout:

Try at least a grand for a shop to just go through the stock brakes that are on there to make them safe.

I posted the 455 car as an example of a desirable numbers matching non TA car because #s matching was a statement you made.

#s matching is a term that you worry about for something rare and collectible. A Formula 350 is a cool looking car but a Formula 400 with a manual would be collectable.

The white car looks like a decent start. Beg one of the local SD members to go with you and look at it. At least everything on it is well kept and they painted the motor the right color.

Replacing the carpet would be a great first project for someone with no skills.

Project managing a complete restoration with no real knowledge is a recipe for disaster. I see you trying to talk yourself and all of us into paying to much for that 71 but if you do you will regret it.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Beware of clean white cars. Make sure you have it inspected by a pro. Spend a few bucks.

Carpet is cheap and easy to replace, also gives you a good opportunity to inspect for rust. I still like the Silver car better. But im a glutton for punishment.

[BBBluey]

You're so far off it's not funny. I'm not trying to be mean or belittle your dream or desires. You asked for fair and honest opinions and that's what you're getting on here. Nobody is flaming you or the car... we're just "experienced" and know what the heck happens and what things cost and probably understand your expectations even better than you do.

Please just enjoy reading about the builds here and live vicariously. When you do have extra money --- Read "Investing 102" http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=34700 on Lateral-G and then when you're near retirement - you'll be a millionaire and can afford to do one of these dream cars for yourself.

BEFORE you buy the car ---- ask the seller if he'd be willing to go with you and drive it to a couple shops in your area and discuss what you are thinking about and your budget and time frame. PLEASE DO THIS BEFORE BUYING.... it will really open your eyes.

No offense taken whatsoever, I absolutely value your opinion and I'm all ears to your experience. Really thank you! You've broken the process down exceptionally well and scaring the crap out of me. In fact, I think what you've stated should be a sticky.
You mentioned investing 102, I'll be sure to read it.
I'm already looking into getting autobody/mechanical estimates from local shops. Found some that'll do it for free, but from your wise words I now find them all suspicious. I'll do the checks as you mentioned.


The fact that you think the engine and misc will be less than the interior shows you are walking into a wall.:bang:

Project managing a complete restoration with no real knowledge is a recipe for disaster. I see you trying to talk yourself and all of us into paying to much for that 71 but if you do you will regret it.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel that "wall" headache creeping in. Awesome list of items I can use to grind him down if I go that way. Thank you.
You're right, I do seem to be talking myself into it. But there's a long story attached to why I have such a strong desire for a 71 Bird, but I won't go there.

Beware of clean white cars. Make sure you have it inspected by a pro. Spend a few bucks.
I still like the Silver car better. But im a glutton for punishment.

Can't put my finger on it but yes, the Silver one just appeals so much more to me.


Thank you all for your wise advice, please keep it coming. It's all incredibly logical and intelligent and I hope to take it vs...listening to the little head if you get my drift.

[Sieg]

Thank you all for your wise advice, please keep it coming. It's all incredibly logical and intelligent and I hope to take it vs...listening to the little head if you get my drift.
All three of these guys are seasoned, experienced, realistic, honest, and just good all-around individuals. (Some more seasoned than others :D)

Bottom line - You can trust the advice and they aren't inflating or overstating reality considering the lack of information available to them. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Save your money until you can afford a nice, drivable car. That thing is a can of worms.

[BBBluey]

All three of these guys are seasoned, experienced, realistic, honest, and just good all-around individuals. (Some more seasoned than others :D)

Bottom line - You can trust the advice and they aren't inflating or overstating reality considering the lack of information available to them. :thumbsup:

I do feel in good hands but... well, no excuses, sometimes we just do what we do. But I must say you all rock! There's no doubt about the incite and experience.

As far as more info goes, here's a link to pics he provided:
http://s692.photobucket.com/user/1971classic/library/Formula%20Firebird

[GregWeld]

The interior of the SD Formula is absolutely hammered....


Seat Covers -- which is DYI -- 289 per seat for the fronts

Seat FOAM -- DYI -- 132 per seat

So before you do ANYTHING else to the car -- you've got almost a grand in the two front seats.... that's 10% of your total budget... and we haven't replaced the door panels - or the rear seat or the carpet.... So 20% or so of your budget is getting the interior to fair condition. That's seats, front and rear - and door panels...

Now -- ALL the wubba (rubber) in that car is completely shot... so that's a must do item if you want to drive it. There's two pieces -- door seal -- and upper seal -- the door seals are 229 for a pair - but the uppers are 140 EACH - so you've got almost $600 for the door seals and misc crap plus shipping etc...

You haven't got the trunk done yet - and the seller was either afraid to take the crap out of the trunk - or he's just lazy -- or both -- which would explain the condition of the car that he's owned since '07..... but you need a trunk weatherstrip.... and that's another $180

Power window doesn't operate.... so it could be the switch or the motor - or the regulator ---- but it needs to go up and down and you've got the door panel off to replace it so might as well work on getting it running... figure worst case and you need a motor... new ones for both doors with motors $300

Mind you --- this is YOU doing all the work.... so you need to do upholstery and now do windows.... so you're going to need tools and some knowledge... or double the above prices for installation. So figure 40% of your 10,000 budget for interior and weatherstrip - and windows working. $4K ..... not a bad figure if you can find someone to do it for that.

Leaves you 6K for running and dependability.... Lets say the motor just needs a tune up and oil and filters --- and maybe a carburetor rebuild... so that's going to be $750

Change filter and oil in tranny --- $150

Change rear end grease -- $50

Bushings and ball joints to make it be able to go down the highway..... and alignment -- $1250

Shocks -- which have to be shot given the rest of the cars condition... just slap on some Monroe's -- $250

Brakes checked and operable - can't skip that part -- assume you'll need some parts or rotors turned - the fluid MUST be completely changed out etc -- $750

Tires are shot -- I don't give a damn about what the tread looks like -- this thing has ROTTED tires and they MUST be changed... $500

So roughly half your balance is spoken for.....


That leaves you maybe $2500 for stuff that nobody knew it needed.... like if the steering box is shot --- or the tie rods are toasted... or the tranny is puked or the motor is puking blue smoke after driving it 100 miles...

Doable.... yeah -- if you're lucky and find a good mechanic that is honest and is willing to work on the beater.

That's all stuff that MUST be done ----- and you haven't touched the exterior looks. Maaco might paint it silver again... so maybe you have enough for a quick spray job.

All in all said --- you have the cost of the car -- and 10K invested.... and you better pray to god it needs nothing else.

[cluxford]

Here's one done ready to go in the range you are talking of building a project (i.e. listed for $17,500, but could most likely get for a tad less)

no waiting, no working, get in and drive

http://www.haggleme.com/Vehicle/location-Michigan-vehiclesforsale/63930/1971-Pontiac-Firebird-400.aspx

http://www.totalwebmanager.com/TWM/Images/1061/63930/Medium/2201465813739.jpg

[GregWeld]

Or this girlie version -- with 54K original miles....


Get out the black vinyl dye and have it black top and black interior in a matter of one weekend....


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-1971-pontiac-firebird-formula-/121378896470?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c42befa56&item=121378896470&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

[GregWeld]

21K asking price...


Apparently these are not high priced desirable collector versions. LOL


http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/pontiac/firebird/1633310.html#PhotoSwipe1404603765520

[cluxford]

Lol ^ Classic 70's brown. I didn't post that one Greg, I saw it but thought that was still a "project" as it definitely needs new paint. Either that or new owner needs to grow and afro and buy some platform shoes and bell bottoms

[GregWeld]

Lol ^ Classic 70's brown. I didn't post that one Greg, I saw it but thought that was still a "project" as it definitely needs new paint. Either that or new owner needs to grow and afro and buy some platform shoes and bell bottoms




Wait.... <rummaging around his closet> FOUND 'EM!!


I graduated HIGH SCHOOL in 1971...... we were by far the hippest hipsters around dude.... Well... except John Travolta.

[GregWeld]

By the way -- to the OP (original poster) -- my comment about these not being collectible.... I meant to say the 350 version.

The Formula 400 seems to be the hot ticket and sells for double or more....

[SSLance]

This all sounds so familiar to me. Friend of mine is getting the "hot rod car itch" and had it set in his mind that he wants a TA, only he's leaning towards a later 70s model. In his world, he'd like to buy one for $7500, put another $7500 in it having a shop do all the work and have it look as nice and run and handle as good as my mid 80s Monte Carlo.

I went through it with him 6 ways from Sunday basically reiterating all of the good advice posted above...and BEGGING him not to buy 2 or 3 that he picked out that he swore were a great deal. I told him to not expect to drop those things off at my house and expect me to restore them for him. I'd help when I could but I've got my own stuff to work on.

He finally went and bought a brand new Duramax truck and is enjoying driving it around instead...thankfully.

My advice, buy the body already done and build the drivetrain you want. If it seems like it's a great deal on an older car, it probably isn't.

[BBBluey]

Here's one done ready to go in the range you are talking of building a project (i.e. listed for $17,500, but could most likely get for a tad less)

no waiting, no working, get in and drive

http://www.haggleme.com/Vehicle/location-Michigan-vehiclesforsale/63930/1971-Pontiac-Firebird-400.aspx

http://www.totalwebmanager.com/TWM/Images/1061/63930/Medium/2201465813739.jpg

I actually called that guy a few months ago. He's listed in Houston CL. He said he'd work the price a bit but I didn't get a good vibe from him so I stayed away. He does have the motor modified with a large cam as well, for some reason I still remember that.

[BBBluey]

Or this girlie version -- with 54K original miles....
Get out the black vinyl dye and have it black top and black interior in a matter of one weekend....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-Formula-1971-pontiac-firebird-formula-/121378896470?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c42befa56&item=121378896470&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
I do like this girly one but it's way the hell out in PA, so checking it out.... The guy is asking 21K so let's say he goes 17, plus shipping + interior+top =2K, and still unsure of condition, it hasn't been restored only armor all'd.

21K asking price...
Apparently these are not high priced desirable collector versions. LOL
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/pontiac/firebird/1633310.html#PhotoSwipe1404603765520

Both of those cars eat my budget just in purchase and I'm still uncertain about their underlying condition. Neither has been restored/rebuilt, just kept clean. The Afro version even states great for a garage queen. I intend to drive the car so I'm certain it'll need repairs as well. It also needs paint and interior (it's original so you know the stitching is going to give).
With the Silver Bird, I'll know what I have as I repair.

I don't think a collector would pay those starting prices knowing they're going to take the car apart anyways in a complete restoration. Although, when I look at the project "trans am with a twist", I can't believe how nice the starting point of that car was, so never mind, I obviously don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

[FETorino]

With the Silver Bird, I'll know what I have as I repair.



Now that statement is hilarious.

Seriously look at all the replies. Everyone has told you that your plan is a fail from the start.

Vince is the one guy who said he likes that rusty soup can but he is a talented fabricator with a shop.

Tell you what, since both you and Vince are in CA.

He's a builder you are a client.

PM him and see if he will get that car to the point you want for $10k.:popcorn2:

[BBBluey]

The interior of the SD Formula is absolutely hammered....
Seat Covers -- which is DYI -- 289 per seat for the fronts
Seat FOAM -- DYI -- 132 per seat
and we haven't replaced the door panels - or the rear seat or the carpet....

Now -- ALL the wubba (rubber) in that car is completely shot...There's two pieces -- door seal -- and upper seal -- the door seals are 229 for a pair - but the uppers are 140 EACH - so you've got almost $600 for the door seals and misc crap plus shipping etc... but you need a trunk weatherstrip.... and that's another $180

Leaves you 6K for running and dependability.... Lets say the motor just needs a tune up and oil and filters --- and maybe a carburetor rebuild... so that's going to be $750
Change filter and oil in tranny --- $150
Change rear end grease -- $50
Bushings and ball joints to make it be able to go down the highway..... and alignment -- $1250
Shocks -- which have to be shot given the rest of the cars condition... just slap on some Monroe's -- $250
Brakes checked and operable -- assume you'll need some parts or rotors turned - the fluid MUST be completely changed out etc -- $750

That leaves you maybe $2500 for stuff that nobody knew it needed.... like if the steering box is shot --- or the tie rods are toasted... or the tranny is puked or the motor is puking blue smoke after driving it 100 miles...

Doable.... yeah -- if you're lucky and find a good mechanic that is honest and is willing to work on the beater.

That's all stuff that MUST be done ----- and you haven't touched the exterior looks. Maaco might paint it silver again... so maybe you have enough for a quick spray job.

All in all said --- you have the cost of the car -- and 10K invested.... and you better pray to god it needs nothing else.

Greg, this is an Awesome breakdown and really helps me itemize/piece the required work involved plus cost. I'm writing all of these things down and believe it or not, even discussing it with my CinC (want to make sure I have her support). Really, Thank you. I actually think I can do some of those repairs myself. From the total invested this way, I would choose this over the other two ebay ones.
I think I'm starting to set my own top dollar of what I'm willing to pay for the Bird and/or walk.

[GregWeld]

SW bought a fantastic looking Blue Firebird.... then found out it was a bondo wagon under the pretty paint.... He's an AUTO DEALER....


But he also has the finances to make it right - which he did - in spades.


To be perfectly blunt --- you really can't afford any of these cars. And I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying it because we all know the pitfalls of these kinds of cars. I get that sense from what you're saying yourself... the purchase price eats all your funds - or you buy a cheap POS and blow the balance "saved" trying to make it half as nice as the ones that'll eat all your funds. Neither of those is a good starting point for buying a project type car.

Save it for a couple more years down the road. keep shopping - build a better base of knowledge for what these kinds of projects entail. It's not like these are only for sale this week they're like buses - there's another one coming along every 15 minutes.

Join the local Pontiac club and meet some buddies that are around with info and help when needed --- the friends you meet doing these things is way better than the car itself.

[GregWeld]

Intro makes some really bitchin' wheels for these....

[Vegas69]

I agree with Greg, be patient, become more knowledgeable, and buy the right car for YOU. Once you get there, it will be apparent.

NEVER, EVER, buy a classic car without a thorough inspection. A majority have been butchered by every wannabe mechanic in the land.

We all have different standards we can endure, I just don't think the car is right based on your posts.

If you are simply looking for affirmation, you came to the wrong place. hahahaha

[Spiffav8]

SW bought a fantastic looking Blue Firebird.... then found out it was a bondo wagon under the pretty paint.... He's an AUTO DEALER....


But he also has the finances to make it right - which he did - in spades.


To be perfectly blunt --- you really can't afford any of these cars. And I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying it because we all know the pitfalls of these kinds of cars. I get that sense from what you're saying yourself... the purchase price eats all your funds - or you buy a cheap POS and blow the balance "saved" trying to make it half as nice as the ones that'll eat all your funds. Neither of those is a good starting point for buying a project type car.

Save it for a couple more years down the road. keep shopping - build a better base of knowledge for what these kinds of projects entail. It's not like these are only for sale this week they're like buses - there's another one coming along every 15 minutes.

Join the local Pontiac club and meet some buddies that are around with info and help when needed --- the friends you meet doing these things is way better than the car itself.

Wise words. We've seen a lot of guys go down that road and watched it end badly. Make smart moves. Buy once, cry once kinda thing. Steady and slow wins the race in this game.

[BBBluey]

Now that statement is hilarious.

Seriously look at all the replies. Everyone has told you that your plan is a fail from the start.

Vince is the one guy who said he likes that rusty soup can but he is a talented fabricator with a shop.

Tell you what, since both you and Vince are in CA.

He's a builder you are a client.

PM him and see if he will get that car to the point you want for $10k.:popcorn2:

Very True. I'm interested to hear from Vince but...as you said, he's a talented fab'r and most likely the guy who does build $50K+ cars. I'm paying peanuts in comparison so I don't expect that kind of time from him, I was thinking more of a mom&pop/family business place.

[BBBluey]

SW bought a fantastic looking Blue Firebird.... then found out it was a bondo wagon under the pretty paint.... He's an AUTO DEALER....


But he also has the finances to make it right - which he did - in spades.


To be perfectly blunt --- you really can't afford any of these cars. And I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying it because we all know the pitfalls of these kinds of cars. I get that sense from what you're saying yourself... the purchase price eats all your funds - or you buy a cheap POS and blow the balance "saved" trying to make it half as nice as the ones that'll eat all your funds. Neither of those is a good starting point for buying a project type car.

Save it for a couple more years down the road. keep shopping - build a better base of knowledge for what these kinds of projects entail. It's not like these are only for sale this week they're like buses - there's another one coming along every 15 minutes.

Join the local Pontiac club and meet some buddies that are around with info and help when needed --- the friends you meet doing these things is way better than the car itself.

Damn Greg, I wish you were my neighbor.

[GregWeld]

Damn Greg, I wish you were my neighbor.





Ha! Nice thought! I built the last car for my brother in law last year..... I paid for all the parts and the interior... and he came up every weekend for weeks and weeks so we could work on it together. It started as a front end bushing replacement job -- ended up 16 months later -- and at least 50 grand out of pocket -- well - actually as I'm typing this -- it was quite a bit more than that - because the engine was 14 grand - and the interior was 20.... but that's not the point ----- I have skills - tools - a large place to work... and the account to keep the parts coming.

The thing that nobody that hasn't done this before understands -- is the "while I'm here" syndrome.... that is --- you start out to do something -- and then realize that while you're at it - it'd be way easier to do "X" as well because you've already exposed "X" parts/pieces and while you're there you might as well go ahead and update/replace/repair/improve them too...

Then the weekend is over - the wife is pissed because you're a dirty greasy pig - you've ruined some clothes - and you had fun while SHE sat waiting for you.... oh - and then SHE wants a new pair of shoes and a handbag - but you want door panels.... and then your neighbors get pissed because the POS has sat outside and you've worked on it til midnight -- banging on stuff and making noise.... Then winter comes... and then a year goes by...

Now --- if you have some prior knowledge and skills..... and some tools.... and a place to work on it..... and it's treated as a HOBBY -- and getting her done isn't a priority -- but just being around and hanging with friends and working on some part of the car and having fun gathering and hunting parts etc..... then that's an entirely different scenario..... but you want a driver NOW.... and that's where everyone on here will tell you the same thing. DON'T DO IT.

[BBBluey]

Ha! Nice thought! I built the last car for my brother in law last year.....

I didn't mean it for you to build my car, I meant it because you strike me as a mentor and someone I would definitely appreciate to have around.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

you just never know what you get but it happens. I don't know how many cars come in and it gets torn apart only to find that its a well dressed rust bucket. I've seen it...$50K mustang vert, $30K 69 Camaro $22K 67 Camaro....all crap.

I don't know how many times I have seen guys blowing their load buying a nice looking car only to find an issue that is too much to fix and they always loose trying to resale.


The 71 Formula that Rickman bought for instance, at first check appeared to be a nice car. After poking around it had hidden rust and about 1/2" of bondo in some spots.

For me I like the cheap crap that you can fix and put parts on it cause you know whats in it when you get to that $20K mark. Most often you are going to replace 90% of the car anyways. I don't know anyone that's "just happy" with the car they find.

Caveat.....shop smart, stick to the plan and the budget.

Its like hitting the bar...never drop for the first piece, sit down for a bit and the right one will be very obvious.

BB seriously, are you looking to build a bad ass $90K pro-touring cone thrower or an average daily driver that will get you there but not get you some? That is what you are gonna get for $10K.

[BBBluey]

Caveat.....shop smart, stick to the plan and the budget.

BB seriously, are you looking to build a bad ass $90K pro-touring cone thrower or an average daily driver that will get you there but not get you some? That is what you are gonna get for $10K.

I don't need to throw cones. I've been very fortunate (stationed in Germany) and have actually done several weekends of driving on the Nuerburgring, which is way better than an any xcross event. I can brag about my lap times. My avatar pic is me driving.
I don't need the car to "get me some", Lol. Just something I can drive around and enjoy for yrs and possibly even hand down. I'm not thinking investment of resale, although I know I should as one never knows. But having a 71 Bird just has a special meaning to me.

[GregWeld]

I didn't mean it for you to build my car, I meant it because you strike me as a mentor and someone I would definitely appreciate to have around.



Ah ha!


I got a call last week from a good friend -- he has money - is retired... and doesn't own a screwdriver.... He's asking me about buying a '61 Dodge Powerwagon like he used to drive on the farm. Brings back good memories. He just wants it to putt around Sun Valley. It was "only" 20K.

The reason he's calling me -- he's just certain I'd work on it if it needed something. I'm like Oh F NO I won't.... And - Go ahead and buy it - but plan on your 20K truck being 30K before the year is over.

I'm happy to be a mentor.... you asked a very good question and stated your intentions. There's many guys on this forum that mentor the others regardless of talent level - or the issue they're asking about. It's what we all hang out on here for. Think of it as hanging out in the garage.... but we're doing it with our computers.

Really think long and hard about how you want to spend your time and money - both are hard to come by. Old cars are a kick in the ass.... and the feeling a guy gets driving them and working on them is priceless -- but that pricelessness doesn't come without a price. That price is time and money - and dreaming won't get it done -- so it's busted knuckles --- or a big wallet....

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Very True. I'm interested to hear from Vince but...as you said, he's a talented fab'r and most likely the guy who does build $50K+ cars. I'm paying peanuts in comparison so I don't expect that kind of time from him, I was thinking more of a mom&pop/family business place.

you know I offer a huge military discount and you can't get more mom and pop than me.

Here are a few I have been eye balling....for a client build. Waiting for the right one. Honestly, if you pass on that silver car I may shoot for it. Its a great car for $4K.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4508346602.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4553813464.html
http://modesto.craigslist.org/cto/4492661465.html

This is the one we really want for the pedigree but not for $10K....gonna wait him out till we see $6K. http://stockton.craigslist.org/cto/4541042948.html

[FETorino]

Honestly, if you pass on that silver car I may shoot for it. Its a great car for $4K.



Maybe but that is what we said it is worth; the guy wants $7.5k . Not a great car at that price.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Maybe but that is what we said it is worth; the guy wants $7.5k . Not a great car at that price.

I can knock him down...theres a bunch there to talk about. :slingshot:

[BBBluey]

you know I offer a huge military discount and you can't get more mom and pop than me.
Honestly, if you pass on that silver car I may shoot for it. Its a great car for $4K.


We always appreciate a military discount. Thank you for that.

If I call the guy and talk him down on the price...If he does go lower I will then feel stupid if I dont buy it...taking up his time, just like a tire kicker. At that point ill be locked in.
Let me give it some thought

[GregWeld]

I think it's a 5K car waiting for 25K in repairs and will then be worth about half that spent.


That's the car hobby. It's not about THE car it's about the dream and the doing and the hunting and the gathering and the friends and the memories. If it floats your boat and you can afford to play the game - then that's all that matters. Just don't be upset when your chick has a dick. That's what happens when you pick them up in a bar and don't know what you're looking at... LOL It's the same with cars.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

We always appreciate a military discount. Thank you for that.

If I call the guy and talk him down on the price...If he does go lower I will then feel stupid if I dont buy it...taking up his time, just like a tire kicker. At that point ill be locked in.
Let me give it some thought

Don't worry about how you feel. He's selling a car it is expected. Its up to him on how much he is willing drop, you just have to ask.It's part of it. But do it in person cause it gives you some merit. Over the phone negotiations is a red flag cause the buyer is thinking "he hasn't even looked at the car". Each negative thing found during an inspection carries a dollar amount. The seller knows it. If he was really serious about getting $7.5 he would have sanded down that roof and primed it.

Seriously, if you are into the car go down and see it for yourself, sit in it, poke around the back, ask him were he parks it at night, look for leak stains, crawl under it, start moving stuff around the trunk, hang over both quarters look under each quarter panel under side,look at the inside of the tailpan, look for rust broken seam sealer, crawl under look for a smashed dented fuel tank, start it up, let it idle, get it up to operating temp, look at the oil pressure when you rev the engine to 2 grand, 3 grand, does it smoke, does it stumble on accel, does it flutter on decel, ask the guy how long it was without that air cleaner lid, no lid equals cylinder scoring, lay under the rocker, look at the floor pan, look for rust, repairs, from the top push down on the carpet at the lowest section of the floor, push against the seats, go under hood, look for rusty water stains, squeeze some hoses, pull the air cleaner base, look for burn marks at the carb, look for leaks, grab the fan blade see if it wiggles, look at the harness, touch it, look for amature repairs, push on the belts, touch the radiator... Do all these things with him present and comment on what you find.
One thing, hang around the lower passenger quarter edge, near the tire. There is a patch of filler there. You can see the pink in one of the pictures. That's gonna be the game changer. Look at it from inside the trunk. Is it a dent or rust. That will be a quarter repair and will eat 3k of your budget. Another spot to focus on is that roof. See if any of it is deep, scratch it with a coin. Just pick at it and go back to it a few times, peek around the rear window trim. I know there is rust in there, see how war down it goes. Look from the under side in the trunk. Each rust hole you see equals 1k to repair.

Bring a friend and a flash light. Each one can drop the price a bunch.

Remember if anything turns you off walk away. Be honest with yourself and listen to your gut. Leave the guy your number and cool off. Just because you travelled all the way or managed to get him down don't feel obligated to buy right now. Give him your offer and put it in his corner.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I think it's a 5K car waiting for 25K in repairs and will then be worth about half that spent.


That's the car hobby. It's not about THE car it's about the dream and the doing and the hunting and the gathering and the friends and the memories. If it floats your boat and you can afford to play the game - then that's all that matters. Just don't be upset when your chick has a dick. That's what happens when you pick them up in a bar and don't know what you're looking at... LOL It's the same with cars.

Luckily he is buying to keep and it's going to be up to him on how nice he wants it. The deal killer will be the quarters and the engine.

[BBBluey]

Seriously, if you are into the car go down and see it for yourself, sit in it, poke around the back, ask him were he parks it at night, look for leak stains, crawl under it, start moving stuff around the trunk, hang over both quarters look under each quarter panel under side,look at the inside of the tailpan, look for rust broken seam sealer, crawl under look for a smashed dented fuel tank, start it up, let it idle, get it up to operating temp, look at the oil pressure when you rev the engine to 2 grand, 3 grand, does it smoke, does it stumble on accel, does it flutter on decel, ask the guy how long it was without that air cleaner lid, no lid equals cylinder scoring, lay under the rocker, look at the floor pan, look for rust, repairs, from the top push down on the carpet at the lowest section of the floor, push against the seats, go under hood, look for rusty water stains, squeeze some hoses, pull the air cleaner base, look for burn marks at the carb, look for leaks, grab the fan blade see if it wiggles, look at the harness, touch it, look for amature repairs, push on the belts, touch the radiator... Do all these things with him present and comment on what you find.
One thing, hang around the lower passenger quarter edge, near the tire. There is a patch of filler there. You can see the pink in one of the pictures. That's gonna be the game changer. Look at it from inside the trunk. Is it a dent or rust. That will be a quarter repair and will eat 3k of your budget. Another spot to focus on is that roof. See if any of it is deep, scratch it with a coin. Just pick at it and go back to it a few times, peek around the rear window trim. I know there is rust in there, see how war down it goes. Look from the under side in the trunk. Each rust hole you see equals 1k to repair.


Man I wish this car was in your neck of the woods. SD is ~5hrs from me so it's not an easy round trip.
I have these additional pics of only rust spots, please let me know if they're what you're talking about:

[CURVES]

Run for your life!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yep, 6&7 are deal killers.
keep looking and save your cash.


Prime candidate for a wide body, flush mount glass and 5th gen roof though.

[BBBluey]

Well that settles it then.

If you want to take it on let me know and I'll pass you his info.

Thank you all for your time and incredible advice. I truly appreciate it.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Well that settles it then.

If you want to take it on let me know and I'll pass you his info.

Thank you all for your time and incredible advice. I truly appreciate it.

I sent the photobucket to my client....he is set on a 73 so we will wait. Thanks Robert.

Stop by the shop if you ever get in town.

[Vegas69]

Smart to have come here for advice. That car would have left you very disappointed.

[BBBluey]

Smart to have come here for advice. That car would have left you very disappointed.

Absolutely. The advice has been amazing. Im still trying to absorb investing 102.

[Ron in SoCal]

BBBluey I'm glad you listened to these guys. I was afraid you weren't going to.

:cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

BBBluey I'm glad you listened to these guys. I was afraid you weren't going to.

:cheers:

You just gotta have faith Ron. :hello:

It all comes out in the wash.

[BBBluey]

BBBluey I'm glad you listened to these guys. I was afraid you weren't going to.

:cheers:

Yeah, it's most likely the smartest move but man it hurts to let it go. Geez, wasnt even mine yet and I feel a bit ill about it. Crazy.

You all could see me falling into the hole huh? Its unexplainable but despite knowing its against all the wise info, the pull of finally getting my hands on it wasn't weakening.

[FETorino]

You just gotta have faith Ron. :hello:

It all comes out in the wash.

Yea it does but, that car with a set of Intros would have been a killer project.:action-smiley-027:

[BBBluey]

Yea it does but, that car with a set of Intros would have been a killer project.:action-smiley-027:

Thats just mean. Don't get me going again cuz Im still hoping the guy will take 3k for it.

[fleetus macmullitz]

"Temporary inconvenience for permanent improvement." :)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

don't temp me guys...I got fun money in the bank, a tank that reads F, an empty trailer and a full spool welding rod. oh, and a proto type suspension, LS2 on the stand and a T56 in the box. :drowninga:

[BBBluey]

don't temp me guys...I got fun money in the bank, a tank that reads F, an empty trailer and a full spool welding rod. oh, and a proto type suspension, LS2 on the stand and a T56 in the box. :drowninga:

See, now I'm thinking I got played to let it go. :buttkick:

It will hopefully make a beautiful ride for someone.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

See, now I'm thinking I got played to let it go. :buttkick:

It will hopefully make a beautiful ride for someone.

Reverse psychology never hurt anyone. Sometimes a simple no doesn't get through. :mock:

Ive fixed worst for less. But you are better off with a nicer car. Now you know what to expect you can prepare better.

[1transam]

See, now I'm thinking I got played to let it go. :buttkick:

It will hopefully make a beautiful ride for someone.


Vince is the man! He could pull it off :) I know from experience...

[GregWeld]

See, now I'm thinking I got played to let it go. :buttkick:

It will hopefully make a beautiful ride for someone.




Best thing you ever did was let that POS go.....


You may not appreciate us now.. but you would have really wished you'd have listened to us had you bought it.

Remember something about RUST/ROT.... If you can see it... there's more lurking under and thru... Rust isn't "just surface" rust unless the car has been stripped to bare metal and is just being worked on and the idiot doing the work is unaware of the products out there to put on the metal so that it DOESN'T get surface rust.

When you see the rot in the bottom of those fenders and doors... and rocker panels.... RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! Because you've already stated your budget and your budget doesn't cover anywhere near the cost to repair that stuff let alone build a car when your done with fixing that kind of stuff. OMG.... You have no idea what these cars can look like under what your eyes can see. Let me point you to a thread of a car that is owned by a gentleman on here that owns a body and paint shop... and this is his personal car!



This was the GOOD METAL left of his '69 Camaro....





http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y333/Mario_Marr/PROJECT%20DOOM/RESIZED1-1.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/Mario_Marr/media/PROJECT%20DOOM/RESIZED1-1.jpg.html)

[BBBluey]

Best thing you ever did was let that POS go.....

You may not appreciate us now.. but you would have really wished you'd have listened to us had you bought it.


Letting it go still hurts though. I lost sleep thinking about the phone call I'd get one day from Vince: "Come pick it up, it's done and ready".

Followed by the nightmare of "Now pay up, $25K Pendejo".

I do appreciate all of the advice, :thankyou:

I've learned A TON in listening to everyone. And I'm still reading investing 102, trying to make sense of it all...

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Now to be fair, 1st gens have way more available as far as replacement parts. 2nd gen firebird stuff just isn't out there and that equals tons of custom stuff and big dollars.

If it were a 69 Camaro then I'd bet it would be gone already.


I'm glad you passed.

Save your coin, we'll find you something. "done early" that's a good one.


Best thing you ever did was let that POS go.....


You may not appreciate us now.. but you would have really wished you'd have listened to us had you bought it.

Remember something about RUST/ROT.... If you can see it... there's more lurking under and thru... Rust isn't "just surface" rust unless the car has been stripped to bare metal and is just being worked on and the idiot doing the work is unaware of the products out there to put on the metal so that it DOESN'T get surface rust.

When you see the rot in the bottom of those fenders and doors... and rocker panels.... RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! Because you've already stated your budget and your budget doesn't cover anywhere near the cost to repair that stuff let alone build a car when your done with fixing that kind of stuff. OMG.... You have no idea what these cars can look like under what your eyes can see. Let me point you to a thread of a car that is owned by a gentleman on here that owns a body and paint shop... and this is his personal car!



This was the GOOD METAL left of his '69 Camaro....





http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y333/Mario_Marr/PROJECT%20DOOM/RESIZED1-1.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/Mario_Marr/media/PROJECT%20DOOM/RESIZED1-1.jpg.html)

[fleetus macmullitz]

Save your coin, we'll find you something.

Vince=Batman

lol

[Vince@Meanstreets]

lolz

[OLDFLM]

play... rewind... repeat: "Listen to Greg! Listen to Greg! Listen to Greg!"

You did a good thing by walking away from the 71 'bird... they're cursed anyway! :patriot:

[BBBluey]

I'm glad you passed.

I guess you already have your hands full with the current 71 "Twist". One at a time is plenty.

Sure hope a raffle goes in play for it too.


... they're cursed anyway! :patriot:

They are haunting not cursed. :evil:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I guess you already have your hands full with the current 71 "Twist". One at a time is plenty.

Sure hope a raffle goes in play for it too.




They are haunting not cursed. :evil:

currently have 5 projects and many in line :thankyou:

[COYBILT]

Listen to Greg letting that car go was the best thing you ever did.
Trust me I replace the back half of camaros and Gto's all the time. These cars rot bad and half if not 3/4 are bondo dressed buckets.

[FETorino]

:bump: http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/4610316194.html :underchair:

[BBBluey]

:bump: http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/4610316194.html :underchair:

Awesome. Thanks for looking out. I'm now waiting to see the car list for the Barrett Jackson auction coming up in Vegas to see if one comes up.

I'm currently pondering on this one:
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/4564438749.html

Doesn't seem to need much, that shifter is really nice, but I think it's priced too high for not being a Formula etc...

[Rick D]

Ok now that is a decent looking car. I'm sure it's not perfect but a good driver.

[GregWeld]

Awesome. Thanks for looking out. I'm now waiting to see the car list for the Barrett Jackson auction coming up in Vegas to see if one comes up.

I'm currently pondering on this one:
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/4564438749.html

Doesn't seem to need much, that shifter is really nice, but I think it's priced too high for not being a Formula etc...





WTF IS TO PONDER -- get your sorry azz out there and drive it and buy it! Offer $13K - Settle at 14K if you have to... get there fast if that thing is half as good as it looks it's going to be gone.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

thats a nice one, i'd rock it like that till you get tired of smelling like fuel all day.

[BBBluey]

Ok now that is a decent looking car. I'm sure it's not perfect but a good driver.

WTF IS TO PONDER -- get your sorry azz out there and drive it and buy it! Offer $13K - Settle at 14K if you have to... get there fast if that thing is half as good as it looks it's going to be gone.

LoL. Listening to all your advice has me being extra cautious. Plus, I've been reading Investing 102, and thinking maybe I should put the $ into investments.
I'm going to see it this Saturday. It's a 4hr drive one way. I asked the guy if the car is dependable enough for me to drive it home (giving him the clue I want it) and he said the car runs but I should probably tow it back. That worries me, a 4hr drive isn't much. He wouldn't say anything else, just that the car is still a project and I would have to see it. Maybe it just needs a carb tune, guess I'll find out.

[GregWeld]

Ah === Yeah it LOOKS way better than that. I would call him back and ask why he wouldn't trust it to drive a lousy 4 hours. Do that BEFORE you go - so you are not all charged up after seeing it. He wants to sell it.... make him work for it - get details.

Whenever you buy a car -- you start at a number of a car that needs nothing -- and then start subtracting from the price everything that it needs to arrive at what the car you're looking at is worth.

[Sieg]

I asked the guy if the car is dependable enough for me to drive it home (giving him the clue I want it) and he said the car runs but I should probably tow it back. That worries me, a 4hr drive isn't much. He wouldn't say anything else, just that the car is still a project and I would have to see it. Maybe it just needs a carb tune, guess I'll find out.
I'd say it's probably worth the drive. Then you could ask questions face to face and read body language.

Or call him again and let him know you're seriously considering it and be upfront with him, tell him your concerned about his towing statement. Let him know you understand it's a 40+ year old car with potentially numerous issues and would appreciate his honesty, then ask him what potential issues would concern on a 4 hour drive. Trans, motor, rear end, wheel bearings, cooling system, electrical? Could be minor or major.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'd say it's probably worth the drive. Then you could ask questions face to face and read body language.

Or call him again and let him know you're seriously considering it and be upfront with him, tell him your concerned about his towing statement. Let him know you understand it's a 40+ year old car with potentially numerous issues and would appreciate his honesty, then ask him what potential issues would concern on a 4 hour drive. Trans, motor, rear end, wheel bearings, cooling system, electrical? Could be minor or major.

run it....you'll have a trail car. bring 2 rolls of duct tape, 3 gallons of water, 4 quarts of oil, a case of ATF (Pontiac), bag-o-rags,4 cans of fix-a flat, small floor jack, a pint of old harper, a number 2 pencil, a shovel, 5 lbs bag of sodium hydroxide, a safety flare and your AAA card.

[Che70velle]

run it....you'll have a trail car. bring 2 rolls of duct tape, 3 gallons of water, 4 quarts of oil, a case of ATF (Pontiac), bag-o-rags,4 cans of fix-a flat, small floor jack, a pint of old harper, a number 2 pencil, a shovel, 5 lbs bag of sodium hydroxide, a safety flare and your AAA card.

Lol Vince! That's funny right there!

[BBBluey]

Ah === Yeah it LOOKS way better than that. I would call him back and ask why he wouldn't trust it to drive a lousy 4 hours. Do that BEFORE you go - so you are not all charged up after seeing it. He wants to sell it.... make him work for it - get details.

Whenever you buy a car -- you start at a number of a car that needs nothing -- and then start subtracting from the price everything that it needs to arrive at what the car you're looking at is worth.

I'd say it's probably worth the drive. Then you could ask questions face to face and read body language.

Or call him again and let him know you're seriously considering it and be upfront with him, tell him your concerned about his towing statement. Let him know you understand it's a 40+ year old car with potentially numerous issues and would appreciate his honesty, then ask him what potential issues would concern on a 4 hour drive. Trans, motor, rear end, wheel bearings, cooling system, electrical? Could be minor or major.

I will definitely give him a call and inquire some more. What is you guys opinion on the Hagerty price/estimates? Are they legit and something to go by or BS? Here's what I'm talking about: http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=846104

run it....you'll have a trail car. bring 2 rolls of duct tape, 3 gallons of water, 4 quarts of oil, a case of ATF (Pontiac), bag-o-rags,4 cans of fix-a flat, small floor jack, a pint of old harper, a number 2 pencil, a shovel, 5 lbs bag of sodium hydroxide, a safety flare and your AAA card.

What about just a hot babe with short shorts? I think that could get me out of a jam.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

never watched "These hills have eyes" have you?

LOL



Its all about demand. Firebirds never really pushed the prices.

[WSSix]

If that car is solid, get it. Even if the engine ends up trashed, it's still a good buy in my opinion. As for not making the drive, things it could be are low rear gear not good for highway speeds, crappy radiator, poor cooling from incorrect fan setup, poor tune/carb issues, high stall converter, and any number of ultimately minor problems that qualify it for project status but not a poor choice just because it can't make a four hour drive. The most important thing will be the body. If it's solid and not hiding anything major, I think it's worth going after.

[BBBluey]

Ah === Yeah it LOOKS way better than that.

I'd say it's probably worth the drive. Then you could ask questions face to face and read body language.

If that car is solid, get it.

I finally got the guy on the phone and he said the car has electrical issues, particularly the headlights don't work and he didn't want me getting caught in the dark driving back, hence he mentioned towing it back.

He also mentioned it has a rebuilt title & a few minor rust spots.

I started surfing google images and found the exact same car on a website "Classic Auto Rental". I'm certain it's the exact same car. He just recently installed the new shifter and tires so those don't match but all the other bits do.

http://www.classicautorental.com/Sports_Cars/1971-pontiac-firebird-formula-400

The car has most likely been beat down hard, now I'm thinking the price should be WAY less. I haven't asked him yet about the rental coincidence yet as I'm really interested in what you all think on this. Is the car still worth it? At what price point would it seem more reasonable?

Thanks.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

probably a bad ground or dirty plug.

as long as it dosnt have a salvage title I say try to low ball him. Nice thing about old cars...it can be fixed and will retain its value.

[LS7 Z/28]

The best advice I could give you would be to have patience. I know you're fired up about buying a car right now, but all of the cars you are looking at are going to have issues.

These guys have all given you great advice and the smartest thing you could do would be to buy a decent completed car from someone: I'm glad you have decided against a project.

I think you should seriously just wait... I know that's not an easy thing to do but a couple years will go by like a shot, and in that time you could up your budget considerably and buy yourself something that you'll be happy with. If I were you I would make it your goal to buy one. Put up a poster of a '71 up on your wall, listen to "Patience" by Guns 'N' Roses once a day and just keep putting money away. You said $50,000 was out of the question. I think you should make it your goal to save and look for a car around $35,000 that someone else put 50 into. I think that's realistic if you just want a decent "stock" build that you'll be happy with and be able to enjoy. But... don't think for a minute that even though you buy a nice one that it will be flawless, because even the $500,000 cars can have issues. It's not a brand new car with a warranty.

Look at the "cars for sale" on here and protouring also. There are stock ones for sale on here and the guys will be way better to deal with than idiots off of craigslist. There are constantly cars up for sale.

Good luck and don't give up

[GregWeld]

I notice the car rental "joint" serves the MOVIE industry exclusively. No doubt that's why the car is on a salvage title. They probably have a chop shop type operation that just churns out cars to be used in chase scenes or to be "jumped" or whatever else the movie demands. It's not about QUALITY.... it's just a "i need a black XXX car for a week".


I agree with Casey - keep looking. There's just so much more to all of this than "price". Cheap up front can end up being much more expensive within the first month.

The more you SHOP -- the more you'll learn - the more you'll know what is good vs a problem.... and when the right one pops up - you won't even have to ask us. You'll know it!!

[Vegas69]

The best advice I could give you would be to have patience. I know you're fired up about buying a car right now, but all of the cars you are looking at are going to have issues.

These guys have all given you great advice and the smartest thing you could do would be to buy a decent completed car from someone: I'm glad you have decided against a project.

I think you should seriously just wait... I know that's not an easy thing to do but a couple years will go by like a shot, and in that time you could up your budget considerably and buy yourself something that you'll be happy with. If I were you I would make it your goal to buy one. Put up a poster of a '71 up on your wall, listen to "Patience" by Guns 'N' Roses once a day and just keep putting money away. You said $50,000 was out of the question. I think you should make it your goal to save and look for a car around $35,000 that someone else put 50 into. I think that's realistic if you just want a decent "stock" build that you'll be happy with and be able to enjoy. But... don't think for a minute that even though you buy a nice one that it will be flawless, because even the $500,000 cars can have issues. It's not a brand new car with a warranty.

Look at the "cars for sale" on here and protouring also. There are stock ones for sale on here and the guys will be way better to deal with than idiots off of craigslist. There are constantly cars up for sale.

Good luck and don't give up

A patient man is always richer than an impatient man. Because he can afford to wait.

This is something I've worked on and it's true. I will say that you can hustle while you wait. :lol:

Greg nailed it for once. :lol: The more you look and educate yourself, the more apparent the right choice will be. You haven't even looked at a car in person yet, have you?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

best thing about waiting.....you can save more cash!

[tom091074]

Great advice here! I bought a 72 nova in 2007 and was getting stuff done and saving money for parts, then life happened... I met a girl got married and then kids kids and more kids, then the wife got cancer and the car is still sitting there, and due to doctors bills and stuff for the kids my car money has long been gone through. I guess my point is I'm proof that life has a way of throwing you a curve ball, and if it can happen it will. Save your money and buy a done car, or even a newer car, the new z28 will keep up I'm sure. good luck and I wish I would have started this thread before I started my car.

[chichirone]

This is one of the best threads I've read on here in a while. The candid feedback is immeasurable from the likes of Weld, Torino, Vince and others. These old cars are a "walletectomy". Simply stated. "Done" cars are not done. Drivers don't drive very long. But they all require wrenching and money for parts, repair, labor, etc. - and as Greg said, double whatever the shop/estimate is to complete the project. There is proof of this in numerous Project Updates on Lateral-G whether done by a shop or DIY'er.

Be patient. Save your cash. Invest wisely. (See Investing 102 thread) Pay yourself first. Buy when you can "afford" to spend. It will be a LOT more fun.

[GregWeld]

That's the thing about these cars.... people get hung up on initial cost because it's "what they can afford". To which I say -- in that case -- DON'T BUY! Because you truly can't afford it!!

That - and what's "cheap" to someone like Vince - that has a full on restoration shop so he can do his own work... is REAL EXPENSIVE to a guy that doesn't have tools - or a place to work - or skills required to do the work. That means he's paying Vince to do the work and even the simple stuff starts to be real money.

That's why we're all telling you to buy the very best car you can find -- and to keep looking until you find that. It's just not very much fun to set yourself up for major disappointment.

[intocarss]

run it....you'll have a trail car. bring 2 rolls of duct tape, 3 gallons of water, 4 quarts of oil, a case of ATF (Pontiac), bag-o-rags,4 cans of fix-a flat, small floor jack, a pint of old harper, a number 2 pencil, a shovel, 5 lbs bag of sodium hydroxide, a safety flare and your AAA card. Vinne for the win!!:drive: :lmao: :lmao:

[BBBluey]

A patient man is always richer than an impatient man. Because he can afford to wait.
You haven't even looked at a car in person yet, have you?
I've looked at a few 71's...most garbage, some not for sale and the others too much $. Having money to wait is different than having time to wait. I already lost what could've been an incredible time...

best thing about waiting.....you can save more cash!
Very true but really not sure "more" will ever be enough.
A few yrs back I actually did have a larger pot saved up and found my dream ride on a site "Collector Motors". I offered $27K cash, it seemed like the Gent was good with it but the Lady in charge was firm at 30K, they let me walk. Below is a pic of the car, I still have a downloaded video of it that I drink a beer to every now and then.

Great advice here! and I wish I would have started this thread before I started my car.
I'm SOOO happy I asked for advice on this forum. Sorry to hear about your ride.

This is one of the best threads I've read on here in a while. The candid feedback is immeasurable. Be patient. Save your cash. Invest wisely.
I'm truly so appreciative for all the experience and hard lessons learned that have been shared. I have been reading the Investing thread and boy is that a good one.

[GregWeld]

27K Invested in Apple (AAPL) August 2008 would be worth 100K this August.... Then you'd sell the APPL and buy British Petroleum Prudhoe Bay Trust (BPT) which is paying a 12% dividend and you'd be earning 1,000 PER MONTH on that investment.

I'm being factious here... but it is the truth.


The car.... not so much.

[BBBluey]

Well it finally happened.

I bought my dream 1971 Firebird. I saw it for sale on Craigslist and I headed out on a 7 hour drive to go see it. I'm very glad I took the chance on the drive...IT'S GORGEOUS! Pics do not do the car justice but I know how everyone likes to see them so...

I want to thank Vega$69 for his time and experience in helping me inspect the vehicle.

I know I'm going to hear all kinds of comments about the wheels...Lol. That's how the car came and that's how I took it. I personally like the rally classic look myself but it is what it is. I'll take gifts & donations if someone has a set laying around.

[GregWeld]

Nice! Glad you're enjoying it!

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Congrats Robert!! I'd leave it the way it is but stance it out and get wheels that fit....OR grow the hair out rub in some tres floures, throw on a Dickies 3 piece suit and run it as is.

[WSSix]

Car looks great, Robert. Glad to hear you're able to get your dream car. Enjoy it!