Anyone want too see.....

[Opm Customs]

Pics of the Lateral Dynamics 3-link install Mark Magers and I did last week in a 1968 Camaro?

[Mike Hall]

What kind of questions is that? LOL I want to see some pics along with more info.

Mike

[XcYZ]

I agree with Mike. :D I'd definitely like to check that out. :thumbsup:

[jonny51]

Nah,you've see one you've seen em all :lol:

[slow4dr]

*searches for BS flag


:bsflag: w/out pics :lol:

[Mean 69]

Oooooh! Ooooohhhhh!!!!!!! Me too! ;)

M

[Opm Customs]

Yeah, I was playing with you all....I mean who wouldn't want to see pics right? First off let me say a big thanks to Mark Magers for being one of the last of the great guys. He took time out of his life, to come out to Az to get me squared away with being an installer. A real class act who is more worried about the product and the people than making money (for now anyway! :thumbsup: I have no worries that within a year or two, this system is going to make obsolete most on the market. It has NO BIND, like none. This Camaro could be fitted with a monster lift and be set up as a Pre-runner. I will stop babbling and get on with the pics already, if anyone has any ?????????'s fire away!

Clay



http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/520/485CIMG0768.JPG -Front X-member installed

http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/520/485CIMG0771.JPG -Front x-member inside view

http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/520/485CIMG0807.JPG - rear x-member installed

http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/data/520/485CIMG0835.JPG -complete setup

[Opm Customs]

video (http://www.hotboat.com/image_center/images/video.gif) Here is a video, all be it a crappy one, of it "working"


I guess the link doesn't work......I'll try to fix it.

[Mike Hall]

Can you retain the rear seat?

Mike

[JamesD]

Can you retain the rear seat?

Mike

It looks like you might get away with using 3rd/4th gen camaro/firebird rear seats.

[Datsbad]

Cl;ay please email me youraddress, you forgot to do that

that looks reral nice , what about min tubbing, can that still be done ? it look like possibly .

Also really how much better could this be than DSE 4 link , with the panhard bar ?

[slow4dr]

:yes: Looks sweet!



I can host the video if it's under 10megs.

[Mean 69]

"Also really how much better could this be than DSE 4 link , with the panhard bar ?"

Much. And this is not intended to take away from the DSE setup at all, they make great stuff and have outstanding customer service, but this system is very different than theirs. Four link setups bind in roll, period. There is no physical way to prevent this, it comes from two different sources. One, the links need to be able to rotate, torsionally. DSE did a really nice job at addressing this with the swivel link, I saw them in person and they appear to be a good solution to this part of the problem. The other source comes from mechanical overconstraint, one of the four links needs to change in length when the setup rolls, their setup addresses this through the use of the rubber bushings. If you use all rod ends on a four link, it will bind in roll, period, and the only reason that the drag style setups allow the car to roll is because something is bending, stretching, moving, and none of that is good news. Three link setups don't suffer from this overconstraint. A perfect analogy is a four legged stool relative to a three legged one. Ever seen a three legged stool rock? It won't, no matter what the relative lengths of the legs are.

Panhard bars are simple, and very effective, they are used all the time. Most folks know that there is a lateral shift of the axle as the suspension moves up and down, this can be minimized if the bar is really long and doesn't need to be a big deal. We chose the Watt's though, to mitigate this issue, and one more very important one: roll moment. Both the Watt's and Panhard Bar define the roll center, which is an important attribute for suspension behavior. However, the PHB roll center height changes as the suspension moves up and down, which creates a variable in the system that the springs and stabilizer bar, if used, have to deal with. The way we executed the Watt's, the roll center relative to the sprung mass of the car NEVER changes, not even a little, creating a fixed roll moment. The springs see a constant roll force regardless of if the suspension is in bump or droop. Subtle, but important difference.

The comment about the rear seat is correct, you can run a rear seat, but it will need to be the split bottom type, such as the later Camaros, etc.

A few comments about OPM, Clay, and Adam. It's true that I went there to help install and train the guys, and assess their capabilities. I had seen their work in person (amazing), and had some great conversations on the phone, but you never really know what you are going to get until you visit in person. We are a small company (growing fast though), and one of the keys to our future success is partnering with capable shops that treat their customers the way we want to treat them. OPM gets it. No BS, no unnecessary glamor, just honest guys that do great work and don't gloat about it. Eager to learn, share ideas and give honest feedback. The trip was terrific, and I came away with some great ideas that Clay and Adam came up with that will be incorporated into the product, and our display setup. If you want our setup installed in the Phoenix area, OPM is THE place we will send you. Of course, they do a heck of a lot more, highly recommended, and you will be seeing a LOT more outrageous stuff from them in the future. Great dudes, I'd go back in a heartbeat, except.... It's really freaking hot out there!!!!

I'm anxious to see the video, we turned the car on it's side and were playing with moving the axle housing, completely bind free, a four year old could articulate it. As a result, we are now making a new display stand!

Mark

[Mike Hall]

How about more info on what comes with the kit and how much is it. Also can DSE mini tubs be used?

Mike

[Jr]

These pictures look great!

I have been sold on this setup for months...I just need more money

[Datsbad]

Sure would be cool to see 2 test cars , yours and DSE and do a simmilar test like they did recently to compare theres to yours !

[slow4dr]

Let me know if it works.

right click save as:

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTI0NzUzMDZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx

[Opm Customs]

Is that you volunteering Jason??? I am game. and I promise that I will pull off the rear two spark-plug wires to make it fair :unibrow:

[slow4dr]

Is that you volunteering Jason??? I am game. and I promise that I will pull off the rear two spark-plug wires to make it fair :unibrow:

:_paranoid

I'll run you all motor. :rofl:

[Opm Customs]

I works....Sorry for the crappiness of the vid.....and Mark, I am also sorry that the bell crank is reversed!!!! :_paranoid

[slow4dr]

I couldn't help but think this is some new wave jungle gym for kids.

[Opm Customs]

I may need a few lengths, since my little old motor is only 358 cubes :thumbsup:

[slow4dr]

I may need a few lengths, since my little old motor is only 358 cubes :thumbsup:




Don't talk to me about "only 358 cubes". :rofl:

[68protouring454]

i would be more then happy to bring my car somewhere to do it.
yes mini tubs can be done no problem, here it is, 335s on a 68
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/4696/3link0333hl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1850/undersideboxes0022eu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1148/closeoutpics0213fy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
closeouts just mocked up for reference, fit was great.

[Mean 69]

You guys rock! You don't always get to choose your customers, but I can tell you, so far we have been really fortunate to have such terrific support from ours.

Hey, now this could be cool. Jason, Clay, Jakey, my 70, all gunning for it. Er, I think I might need to get some more motor-vation for the 70! In all honesty, it would be really tough to pull off a true direct comparison, I think the only way to do it would be to have one single car to test the setups on. We have looked at a number of things to try to do this, but I think our only real recourse is to let our setup stand on its own. All of the cars we have worked on are/will be incredible, and we have very, very lofty expectations for the 70 in terms of road holding and handling.

There is this one particular car we heard about that we really, really want to work with. The choice of powerplant will really test the waters in terms of being a "pure American" muscle car.

BTW, the retail on the kit is currently $3600. It includes the crossmembers, control arms, sheet metal closeouts that Jake showed, rod ends/bushings, Watt's link, and the main piece: fully welded 9" Ford based axle housing. No need to send yours out for bracket fitment. We don't include the center section/posi unit, axles, shocks/springs, or brakes because there are WAY too many different configurations, no one size fits all. We are full dealers for Strange Engineering, are working closely with Wilwood and will be dealers soon, and are also working with a very exciting company for high performance shocks and springs that should be a very compelling package. If you wish to source parts elsewhere, no problem here at all, we will help you select exactly what you need.

We have designs ready to go for the first and second generation F body GM cars, and also for the big gorgeous B-Body Mopars. Soon will be early Mustangs, E-body Mopars, and early Chev II's (particularly interesting...). Front stuff being prototyped now too, we are pretty busy.

Mark

[jonny51]

I can't get that video to work.

[68protouring454]

go to post 17 and right click and save, worked for me

[Matt@Lateral Dynamics]

Just wanted to add that this kit works with 3 1/2" exhaust over the axle too. 4" is possible, but would be quite the squeeze.

[jonny51]

go to post 17 and right click and save, worked for me

I got it to work but it took about 5 mins to load.

[RaceMan]

That looks awsome!!! When will it be road tested or has it??? I'd have to say I'm looking for a rear set-up soon and I'll be thinking of that for sure!! :thumbsup:

[Matt@Lateral Dynamics]

Mark has had the prototype on his '69 for about 2 years now, lots of street miles and several OT events.

Not one problem so far...even with all rod ends, and it handles quite well.

[Datsbad]

Mark , My next camaro I build will be 1000 rwhp , so i might give it a try . I like the way it looks, very nice peice !!

[comp-spec]

You guys rock! You don't always get to choose your customers, but I can tell you, so far we have been really fortunate to have such terrific support from ours.

Hey, now this could be cool. Jason, Clay, Jakey, my 70, all gunning for it. Er, I think I might need to get some more motor-vation for the 70! In all honesty, it would be really tough to pull off a true direct comparison, I think the only way to do it would be to have one single car to test the setups on. We have looked at a number of things to try to do this, but I think our only real recourse is to let our setup stand on its own. All of the cars we have worked on are/will be incredible, and we have very, very lofty expectations for the 70 in terms of road holding and handling.

There is this one particular car we heard about that we really, really want to work with. The choice of powerplant will really test the waters in terms of being a "pure American" muscle car.

BTW, the retail on the kit is currently $3600. It includes the crossmembers, control arms, sheet metal closeouts that Jake showed, rod ends/bushings, Watt's link, and the main piece: fully welded 9" Ford based axle housing. No need to send yours out for bracket fitment. We don't include the center section/posi unit, axles, shocks/springs, or brakes because there are WAY too many different configurations, no one size fits all. We are full dealers for Strange Engineering, are working closely with Wilwood and will be dealers soon, and are also working with a very exciting company for high performance shocks and springs that should be a very compelling package. If you wish to source parts elsewhere, no problem here at all, we will help you select exactly what you need.

We have designs ready to go for the first and second generation F body GM cars, and also for the big gorgeous B-Body Mopars. Soon will be early Mustangs, E-body Mopars, and early Chev II's (particularly interesting...). Front stuff being prototyped now too, we are pretty busy.

Mark
Mean 69
I talked to u before about your rear suspensions.Do you know how long before the E- body kit? We're working on a 70 challenger with a viper motor + 6 speed, That would be nice in there (Ill take one)

[Mean 69]

The Mopar E-Body kit is the very next one we will be developing. We have a Challenger coming in to the shop directly after Dave's 70 Camaro is completed, which should be in a couple of weeks. I'd estimate based upon what I know now that the E-Body kit will be ready for sale mid-Summer, we can knock out a design very quickly once we have a car in hand. If you have a specific schedule for the car, I'd love to hear about it, drop me a pm if you'd like. Viper motor, oooh baby!

Again, a sincere thanks to everyone's comments, we are really hungry for feedback and I think we do a pretty good job at listening.

I've also got to throw a huge thanks to my partner, Matt. His input, design capabilities, and unreal craftsmanship made this all possible. He works his butt off, and doesn't let his ego get in the way of things (well, most of the time....). I'd say that it is pretty rare to find someone that a person can work as well with as I do with him, I'm a very lucky guy in this regard.

Mark

[Rick Dorion]

Simply beautiful!

Mark, any East Coast partners in the works?

[Mean 69]

Thanks, Rick. We have one shop that is completely on board in Maine, darned nice guy that runs it too. There is another shop in the Southeast that we anticipate as being a dealer/installer, and some interest though nothing firm between the two. We aren't knocking on any doors at the present time trying to drum up business, so I am guessing that there are a lot of folks that we would love to work with but just haven't made the connection with, we just haven't devoted the energy to "sell." That will happen relatively soon though, in the meantime we're basically working with folks that pursue "us."

Mark

[Leadfoot1]

Awesome looking set-up!

I'm in the middle of my project (just placed the car on the jig and took all the floor out of it) and am still debating on suspension choice ('like i needed another choice to complicate things even more!!!) :rolleyes:

I was wondering about ride height adjustment, how low can you drop it? (say, at pinchweld) and what would be a good combo to run with it in front?

Lead.

[Mean 69]

Hey Lead,

You can drop the car pretty far, the exact height is going to depend upon what type of car you have. For the first gen cars, the lowest practical height if you are going to drive the car is very similar to Stielow's awesome "Mule," any lower and you are going to start scraping speed bumps, etc. Even at this height, there is still ample bump travel. You can certainly go lower, I know that Jake's killer 68 is going to be dropped into the weeds, and that is no problem.

One of the things that we incorporated into the design is adjustability, you can change the control arm pickup points (if necessary) to get the best geometry "back" if you raise or lower the car. We looked at countless cars to find the range of ride heights folks use, and even though you'd never be able to tell from magazine shots, etc, there is a pretty darned big difference between cars, I was surprised. This is a big deal, because the suspension geometry for any setup is going to change as a function of ride height (or bump travel, rebound travel). For setups with short to modest control arms, important attributes, such as anti-squat will be very different from one ride height to the next (which also translates to dynamic instability). Not only do we have the ability adjust, but we use really long control arms, WAY longer than the competition, to make the transitional changes happen far more slowly, which directly translates into real world stability. It's all in the physics.

Mark

[Matt@Lateral Dynamics]

Specifically, Jake's car is literally as low as you can get a 1st gen Camaro without doing a tube chassis. His ride height was figured by putting a 335/35/18 tire in the wheel well with the car upside down. Add 1/2" for clearence, add 2 1/2" for bump travel = ride height. You won't get any lower than that with a stock floor.

Jake's car was one of the cars we used to get the initial geometry from.

[customcam]

Specifically, Jake's car is literally as low as you can get a 1st gen Camaro without doing a tube chassis. His ride height was figured by putting a 335/35/18 tire in the wheel well with the car upside down. Add 1/2" for clearence, add 2 1/2" for bump travel = ride height. You won't get any lower than that with a stock floor.

Jake's car was one of the cars we used to get the initial geometry from.

Talking about jakes car that looks awsome
have i missed the cars thread somewere else?