air tools

[BigJoe]

been using a friend's fully kitted shop for years but want to plus up my personal collection at home to keep my having to move the projects to a minimum.

Looking to buy DA's, Angle grinders, cut off wheel, etc.

Always love snap on but lately i've been buying matco simply because well i'm in the military, don't make all that great of money but still want a quality tool.

any suggestions would be great if someone thinks i shouldn't just buy matco's versions.

[Sieg]

The first priority is an air compressor that will deliver sustained psi and cfm for the tools you use the most. Compromise on the compressor and you'll continually be disappointed. A 60-80 gallon 2-stage probably won't disappoint you.

Jet has a decent line of air tools that come in 2-4 duty ratings/price point.

[BigJoe]

Yeah a good 60 gallon is on my short list. Hoping to find a good one on craigslist

[Sieg]

Something like this would be a minimum IMO if you plan on using air tools a lot, especially cut-offs, drills, and sanders.

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Puma-PK6060V-Air-Compressor/p591.html

This appears to be a decent "budget" choice:
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Quincy-2V41C60VC-Air-Compressor/p855.html

My Ingersoll Rand 3.5 hp 20 gallon can't keep up with a 2" disc sander. :bang:

[GregWeld]

been using a friend's fully kitted shop for years but want to plus up my personal collection at home to keep my having to move the projects to a minimum.

Looking to buy DA's, Angle grinders, cut off wheel, etc.

Always love snap on but lately i've been buying matco simply because well i'm in the military, don't make all that great of money but still want a quality tool.

any suggestions would be great if someone thinks i shouldn't just buy matco's versions.



So that's an "it all depends" question. Personally I'm a Snap-On guy... except when it comes to air tools. I buy 3 or 4 HARBOR FREIGHT angle cut offs at a time -- they're like $14 a piece. I've yet to have one fail... I run good quality (buy them at AirGas by the 100s) discs.... 2" and 3".

I have a Snap On cut off ---- it's slow but has more torque.. and is larger diameter body -- and it's not as good of a tool as the cheap crap from HF.

Now --- on body saws --- I only buy Snap On and not that junky Blue Point crap either (Taiwan or China but with Snap On prices). They have a fantastic body saw that has torque and there's nothing worse than a body saw that stalls every 1/4". I had bought a Blue Point -- and had to add a Snap-On because the Blue Point version is junk. So the Snap-On bought first would have been "cheaper". UGH.

I have top quality DA's -- and Mud Hogs - and all manor of stuff like that.... There is no such thing as too many air tools. Some is Chicago Pneumatic (also a lot of China made product).

I have a Snap On 1/2" impact -- top quality piece with a top price too! But in stuff like that -- I like a "lifetime" tool. However -- for the race rig - I bought an electric (battery) version that works pretty dang slick and is 1/3rd the price.

I COMPLETELY agree with SIEG.... the air source is every bit if not more important than the actual brand of tools... it needs to be able to crank out 19ish CFM at operating air pressure --- say 100 PSI or greater.

Air compressors are always discussed and advertised at PSI --- when the VOLUME of air at the operating PSI is far more important. Tank size doesn't mean diddly if the compressor can't keep up with the tool being used. $800 will NOT get you a compressor you'll be happy using.

[BigJoe]

Great input yeah that second compressor he listed looks like a halfway decent one. My garage is small as hell but I know a big compressor will pay dividends.

Good to know on the harbor freight cut off tools, cheap and works is always good

What compressors you guys running?

[GregWeld]

Joe ----


So I went out to look at my air tools and see if I could not only help you - but anyone else reading this stuff....


I have quite a variety as it turns out! Brands and where made! USA - Taiwan - China - Japan.... the order of QUALITY? USA - JAPAN - TAIWAN - CHINA




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5358.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5358.jpg.html)




NOTE THE THREE BODY SAWS ----- ONE IS JUNK ---- THAT WOULD BE THE BLUE POINT from Snap On. This is a tool that requires some torque... the BP has NONE.

The Snap On is three times the tool for 50% more on the price!


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5350.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5350.jpg.html)



Here's the OTHER HUGE DIFFERENCE --- The BP tool requires a screwdriver to first undo the cover flap --- with a little teeny tiny POS screw that always falls on the floor where I then have to find it! FT! --- NOTE the SNAP ON tool has side access directly to the blade for changes. You change these blades A LOT!




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5350.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5350.jpg.html)




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5351.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5351.jpg.html)





http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5352.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5352.jpg.html)



MORE TOOLS ARE BETTER!



Nothing worse than having to change arbors on a tool to do something quick.... thus --- multiple tools to do various jobs quickly....


Some are cheap ass junk and the most used version would be the SNAP ON.




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5356.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5356.jpg.html)




There is a cheap ass HARBOR FREIGHT angle there --- note that it has no arbor in it... I own like 4 of these... they're $14 a piece! Use it - toss it if it quits working. NOTE there are 2" arbor for the disc and 3" ---- you need both. Easier to buy a cheap HF tool and have them set up with different arbors.





http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5354.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5354.jpg.html)





BUY THE CONSUMABLES IN BULK!!! This stuff is meant to be used up! Don't waste your time and effort trying to get another 5 minutes out of the disc! Toss it and grab a new one!




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5359.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5359.jpg.html)






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THE HANDIEST TOOL NEXT TO THE CUT OFF WHEELS!!!



This handy dandy little air drill (reversible!) motor.... Quick change collet... fast - efficient - gets into tight places...




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5353.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5353.jpg.html)



And make sure you can brand your bbq'd hot dog!





http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_0771.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_0771.jpg.html)

[Che70velle]

I've got a 10 year old 14 cfm Husky, that is wore out. It was fine for me at first in my small shop. I wanted it just for an impact gun, and a 3/8" air ratchet. Well, 10 years later, a bunch more air tools, and a summer spent sand blasting, I'm obviously in the market for a 2 stage 25 cfm. Greg said it best. An $800 compressor will ultimately let you down.

[Sieg]

I'll second the small Harbor Freight straight and angle cutoff/sander/grinders. At $10-$20 each I've yet to have one fail and they perform reasonably well. I'd rather have multiples of those set up with cutoff/sander/grinder wheels than have to change out tooling every time I need it because I spent $125 on one big brand name.

SnapOn tube steak brander........for the man who has everything! :lol:

[GregWeld]

Something like this would be a minimum IMO if you plan on using air tools a lot, especially cut-offs, drills, and sanders.

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Puma-PK6060V-Air-Compressor/p591.html

This appears to be a decent "budget" choice:
http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Quincy-2V41C60VC-Air-Compressor/p855.html

My Ingersoll Rand 3.5 hp 20 gallon can't keep up with a 2" disc sander. :bang:





Go to the SPECS section on these two compressors ---- HUGE DIFFERENCE!! As in OMG ----- the PUMA will make only 12 CFM at 90psi ---- while the slightly more expensive (okay - it's double... but still cheap IMHO)... will produce 15.9 @ 90psi


If you don't think that makes a difference ------ try doing some work with either one. The PUMA would be running out of air in a matter of minutes -- and then the compressor would kick on and it never would catch up.... while the Quincy would produce enough air to actually run the tool -- and kick on once in awhile. It (Quincy) would run far cooler producing less moisture in the air as well.


NOW HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART OF THIS CFM USED RATING -------- most TOOL CFM ratings are based on 25% DUTY CYCLE --- meaning that you're only going to run the tool for 15 SECONDS out of every MINUTE....


OKAY --- That's a complete BS number right. 15 seconds of every minute.... so you can triple or quadruple that actual numbers that are used for CFM RATINGS. Don't think for one minute (or use your brain for 25% duty cycle) that you can run an air die grinder on 10 cfm at 90psi.... it takes WAY more air than that to actually do a job. Just sayin..... don't be fooled by these completely made up numbers.

[Sieg]

My little compressor is rated 7.4 @ 90 psi.............I'm guessing on a 10% duty-cycle as it can't even think about catching the HF 90* after 15 seconds of continuous light duty sanding. Let alone knock a lug nut loose that's torqued @ 100 ft lbs with a "decent" new Craftsman 1/2 impact.

Within reason I don't think a guy could ever have too much compressor.

[GregWeld]

Just for fun --- I wanted to see how long it took for my compressor to kick on from a full tank.... so I drained the water valve (on the bottom of the tank) until the compressor kicked on. When it stopped --- I started my timing.


My bead blaster at 100 psi --- took 1:27.46 --- one minute 27 seconds until the compressor kicked on.


I set my regulator to run at 90psi with the tool operating... and I used My Snap on cut off tool which is rated at 2.7 CFM @ 90psi in freewheel mode - which is how I tested it -- took 1:17 -- that's doing NO WORK -- just freewheeling.... 1 minute 17 seconds.


JUST FOR FUN --- I ran the exact same type of tool --- but this time it was my NAPA Evercrap (ever craft) air cut off.... the cheaper tool took 51.76 seconds before the compressor kicked on -- so the cheaper tool used a lot more air. I will also tell you that the Evercrap tool is no where near as torquey (powerful) as the Snap On that took less air.

My compressor is a Champion Advantage VR5-8 --- 5 hp 220V 80 gallon storage tank.... that delivers 19.1 CFM @ 125 psi

http://www.compressors-champion.com/vr58.cfm



Barely over ONE STINKY MINUTE before it kicked in.... and this is an extremely good $2800 (expensive) compressor. ONE STINK MINUTE.

[Sieg]

Based on reviews this compressor from Harbor Freight could be a good minimum choice: http://www.harborfreight.com/5-hp-60-gallon-165-psi-two-stage-air-compressor-93274.html

Greg's example truly exploits how deceiving the CFM ratings game is.

[BigJoe]

You guys are freaking awesome, I love this site. Greg thanx for taking the time to post. Hopefully this helps some other people as well. Sure is helping me

[Sieg]

You guys are freaking awesome, I love this site. Greg thanx for taking the time to post. Hopefully this helps some other people as well. Sure is helping me

You're welcome. Now find out out what compressor/specs your friend has at his shop so you can make reasonable comparisons.

[BigJoe]

Buddy of mind is sending me a spare snap on die grinder, score and so it begins

[renegade6]

I struggled with a 30 gallon Craftsman pistonless compressor until I found a great deal on a 80 gallon twin stage. Night and day difference; it is worth the money spent.

As far as air tools, I have an assortment. When my cheap Husky angle grinder died, I upgraded to an Air Cat. Not made in the US but, it is much quieter and uses a lot less air than the cheaper ones.

[Solid LT1]

Buy the best air compressor you can afford. I started in the 70's with a Craftsman 220V 5HP made by Deville-bliss it's was a quality piece, I sold it to a guy for about what I paid for it. I then went to a Campbell Hausfield USA 5HP vertical, this was OK I think the craftsman performed better.....gave that to my buddy the body guy when on my 42nd birthday I decided I needed a real compressor. Ingersol-Rand IR30 7.5HP 220V 2stage 80 gallon tank. I bought my IR in 2002 it's been used pretty hard since then....no problems this one takes me to my grave unless I hit the lottery then a IR or Chicago Pneumatic rotary screw compressor ( because Ill never afford a Kieser ) those rotarys are downright silent I heard louder refrigerators. Air tools again I'm a IR guy but mine are old USA made, Chicago Pneumatic but, my cylinder head die grinder is ARO that being said I'm a sucker for a cheap throw away Harbor Freight. My Snap-on butterfly just bit the big one like my buddies did and if you look many Snap-on are just rebadged IR tools, I also have a Souix air drill things are works of art will never break.

[NOT A TA]

I've had quite a few different compressors over many years at home and shops. My first full paint job (Lacquer ha ha) was done with a 3/4 horse 3? gal. Railroad Salvage special. If I could do it all over I'd have bought a big compressor as a young man instead of my first car and replaced it whenever it wore out. The time saved and aggravation would have been well worth it over the past 40 years.

Currently have four. An oil less 5 HP 25 gal. Craftsman portable, 5 HP twin 60 gal., 7.5 HP 80 gal. Matco branded Ingersol, and an 8 HP 80 gal. Snap on. The IR and Snap On are both 2013 models. The 60 gal I'm giving away to a friend.

I like the 7.5 Matco branded IR better than the 8 HP Snap on because it's quieter and seems to recover quicker than the Snap On. I added a 60 gal reserve tank away from the compressor to provide more reserve volume which keeps pressure more constant for painting. The reserve tank also acts as a cool down tank to reduce moisture for paint work. There are other benifits to adding a reserve tank and of course water traps/filters are also used.

If you use the right angle HF grinders a lot, buy the extended warranty. The head loosens up and no amount of adjusting/locktite etc. seems to cure the issue. Be aware that HF records the code for each tool so if you buy a new one and try to return an old one later you probably won't get away with it. I keep several with 2" & 3" rolocs etc. on so I don't have to keep switching arbors. When one dies I have to get the right paperwork for that tool. I'm on 3rd replacement of some of them. They give a new extended along with the tool each time so far.

Everyone should have a right angle air drill, buy one along with short drill bits, you be glad.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/NOTATA/Garage%20and%20shop/003_zps093def72.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Garage%20and%20shop/003_zps093def72.jpg.html)

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[GregWeld]

I've had quite a few different compressors over many years at home and shops. My first full paint job (Lacquer ha ha) was done with a 3/4 horse 3? gal. Railroad Salvage special. If I could do it all over I'd have bought a big compressor as a young man instead of my first car and replaced it whenever it wore out. The time saved and aggravation would have been well worth it over the past 40 years.




And every person I've ever talked to says the same thing --- "I wish I'd have bought a better compressor"....

This is right next to the statement ---- I wish I'd have bought a decent lift years ago.


TWO tools that are used far far more than you can ever imagine.... and ones that aren't "replaced" often if bought correctly.

They'll outlive the expensive wheels a guy buys that are out of style before the build gets done.... LOL

[Sieg]

And every person I've ever talked to says the same thing --- "I wish I'd have bought a better compressor"....

This is right next to the statement ---- I wish I'd have bought a decent lift years ago.


TWO tools that are used far far more than you can ever imagine.... and ones that aren't "replaced" often if bought correctly.

They'll outlive the expensive wheels a guy buys that are out of style before the build gets done.... LOL
So true........with the exception being Intro Wheels as they are truly timeless. :D

[GregWeld]

So true........with the exception being Intro Wheels as they are truly timeless. :D



Funny ---- When DBasher stopped by the house - he finally says -- "hey! So what's the deal with Intros???"


I told him that every time I see this reference I chuckle a little bit... but at the same time I feel horribly for the company because it seems like we're bashing them (to the outsider not knowing the original joke)...

[BigJoe]

yeah i'm not afraid to buy right the first time, i'm only 30 so not exactly old yet. I learned that lesson on many things in life of buying what you want and the right tool one time is better then buying the wrong one 3-5 times.

[96z28ss]

Joe ----





BUY THE CONSUMABLES IN BULK!!! This stuff is meant to be used up! Don't waste your time and effort trying to get another 5 minutes out of the disc! Toss it and grab a new one!




http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5359.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5359.jpg.html)






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5360.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/Shop%20Pix/IMG_5360.jpg.html)





Sheesh ! You have more supplies than most full time shops.

[GregWeld]

Sheesh ! You have more supplies than most full time shops.




Hey! I was a wholesaler... I believe in having INVENTORY....

Ya otta see my Stainless Steel nuts and bolts --- and my weatherpaks and... well you get the picture.

[scherp69]

Sorry to hijack the thread, just have a question for Greg. Where do you get your 2 and 3" discs from. I've been trying to find somewhere to get them bulk, but haven't had much luck. The local tool shop gives them to me for around 85 cents each when I buy a bunch, but I'm sure they can be gotten cheaper somewhere.

[GregWeld]

Hey Mike! I buy them at my AirGas welding supply shop. OR I buy them in bulk bags at Good-Guys Puyallup from the cheap ass tools booth that's always here inside one of the buildings. Just depends what I'm doing and or if I need them. You can also just buy them from Amazon....

.85 per disc is probably not a bad price. I like to buy boxes of 50 or so... and stock the Roloc discs and the Roloc "surface conditioning" discs.

The green 2" Roloc paint remover discs are more like $15 EACH.... And the key there is not to use any pressure and they'll last...

[Sieg]

I've found good pricing on abrasives at Amazon but you need to be careful of the vendor rating and read the product reviews.

[SuperB70]

My company import all kind of roloc discs (from China,
US is not our market but wanted to say that try to find if anybody sells red, ceramic ones. They are more expensive (x2) that brown and green but last alot longer (x6) and they are really good on stainless steel.

I use them myself and as 5" fiber disc also.
In mild steel sheet metal work you dont need more that couple to get you workday finished. Use #36 for welding and #60 and #80 to other nicer stuff.

[renegade6]

I have had really good luck with the roloc Imperial purple discs. They have a plastic backing and when you wear out the edge, you can just trim off the excess plastic. They are more expensive but, I get a significant amount of use out of them compared to the others.

[BMR Sales]

Great Post by Greg!

Yes, that Blue Point Saw is crap & looks just like the HF one

I have Old Craftman, Snap-On & HF. Surprizingly I don't have any Matco even though I have a bunch of their hand-tools.

In addition to a Good Compressor ( I have a Craftsman 80 Gallon 2 Stage) make sure to put in-line filters to keep moisture to a minimum and always Oil your Tools

T.C.