1969 Camaro tru-turn

[glr0212]

Wanted to give my 2 cents (earned the hard way) on the ridetech tru-turn and the ability to put a 10” 275 tire on a 69 Camaro.
The short version is it doesn’t really fit.
My setup is probably pretty common for people buying this system.

Stock subframe
½” Drop body bushings
Full ridetech front suspension with the muscle bar
18x9.5” front wheel w/ 6.25” backspace
265/35 tires

The car has been fully aligned per the Ridetech's specs.
Here is how well it “fits”

***** I added back in several of the key pictures on this thread that disappeared when third party hosting was dropped. Mine is the green car. The blue car is the car done by a ridetech guy later in the thread. The yellow fender is the modification done for a custom car to make larger front tires fit.

https://i.imgur.com/tmREFMV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/08UMwLp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RzQrSAF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wf3Afb9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8ZZQzf2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KUK9LES.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zQ3wS5e.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/az38hU5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zVcIvNT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0n7jmT5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rgfvOqe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OcIzlPe.jpg

[glr0212]

As you can see it really doesn’t fit well. The fender sits on tire when the wheel is turned.

What you can’t see is the rear of the tire hits the frame rail long before I reach lock on the steering wheel. I would probably have to do a 3 point turn when taking a right at a stop light if I left it this way.

I’ve said in another thread and will say it in this thread - I don’t see how you stuff that much tire into the fender well with a stock subframe. There just isn’t enough room to make it work.

The only options I have at this point are:

1)New wheels and smaller tires upfront
2)Raise the car 0.5”-1” and hope I can clear the fender and just live with the mile wide turning radius

With option 2 I think I still may have to get stiffer springs in order to keep the tire from riding up into the fender while turning over a large rise in the road (aka turning into a parking lot)

[glr0212]

I am not posting this to flame on ride tech. I think they make a nice product. It goes together well and probably handles great. On the other hand it is not a great solution for fitting larger tires into a 69 camaro.

I just wanted to post another viewpoint besides “yeah, everything fits right in there with the right backspacing” In my experience, it doesn't fit. I have no room to give on either the front or back side of my wheel.

[jlwdvm]

I have the same set up as you on my 69 firebird project, except I have solid stock height body bushings. I haven't ordered wheels yet, but already have new Toyo R888 275's for the front. I hope the solution is different back spacing with the stock bushings...guess I'll have to measure and see while crossing my fingers! Thanks for the post

[Josh@Ridetech]

Hey GLR0212,

I'll be happy to help you figure this out, I just want to check into a couple of things to see what we're working with. I saw up above where you said you used our alignment specs but can you tell me exactly what you have your camber set at? We ran a 275 on the 69 GG/RS Camaro that we just finished. We just need to see where your problem is coming from.

[130fe]

Do you think putting "regular" height body bushings on it would help? It might get you some more clearance.

[Regal454]

We ran a 275 on the 69 GG/RS Camaro that we just finished.

Josh,

How wide and what was the back spacing on the front wheels of the Goodguys Camaro?

Were the tires a 275/35/18?

What was the camber setting on the alignment?


I'll be ordering a set of wheels soon for my Ridetech equipped 69 Camaro soon so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[bret]

Your tire hits the outer fender because the 265/45-18, at 27.4" tall, is about 1.8" taller than the 25.6" tall 275/35-18 tire that we (and most others) use. It hits the subframe at full lock because you've selected the wrong wheel back spacing by 1/2". Our printed recommendation for back spacing is 5.75".
If you install the correct parts on the car it will fit just fine.

[Rod P]

Your tire hits the outer fender because the 265/45-18, at 27.4" tall, is about 1.8" taller than the 25.6" tall 275/35-18 tire that we (and most others) use. It hits the subframe at full lock because you've selected the wrong wheel back spacing by 1/2". Our printed recommendation for back spacing is 5.75".
If you install the correct parts on the car it will fit just fine.

ummmm yep

[glr0212]

1st of all you cant make a hard BS recommendation because you don't know what my track width is. Depending on what brake setup people have the track width can move by as much as 1/2" or more.

2nd, and most important - If you look at the pictures the fender is practically sitting on the tire. adding an extra 1/2 of backspacing in my case and the fender will be sitting on the tire.

Basically I can not move the tire out towards the fender any more.

[glr0212]

alignment

Camber -0.48

Caster +3.77

Toe in 0.03"

[glr0212]

Your tire hits the outer fender because the 265/45-18, at 27.4" tall, is about 1.8" taller than the 25.6" tall 275/35-18 tire that we (and most others) use. It hits the subframe at full lock because you've selected the wrong wheel back spacing by 1/2". Our printed recommendation for back spacing is 5.75".
If you install the correct parts on the car it will fit just fine.

The tire is a 25.3" tall

265/35ZR-18 BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2

thanks for your help.

[glr0212]

Hey GLR0212,

I'll be happy to help you figure this out, I just want to check into a couple of things to see what we're working with. I saw up above where you said you used our alignment specs but can you tell me exactly what you have your camber set at? We ran a 275 on the 69 GG/RS Camaro that we just finished. We just need to see where your problem is coming from.


I posted the alignment specs above. What is the ride height on the GG camaro? Measured at what point?

[Rod P]

½” Drop body bushings

18x9.5” front wheel w/ 6.25” backspace




get rid of the half height body bushings, that tucks the frame higher into the body

and that wheel backspacing (6.25” backspace) is more for a scott mock style frame that has the corvette arms

[glr0212]

i think we are missing something in communication here.

I clearly do not have room to move the wheels and tires OUT 1/2". The fender is already sitting on the wheel practically. I'll get another picture later to demonstrate this for you.

Also not sure how body height bushings are going to create more side to side clearance in the fender wells.

[dhutton]

The tire is a 25.3" tall

265/35ZR-18 BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2

but thanks for your help.

Your first post says it is a 265/45 tire....

Won't half height bushings tuck the tire further into the fender and aggravate the problem?

What about adding a litte more camber?

Don

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yep, 5.750 would put you into the fender.

I'd go -1.8 on the camber and see what you have to do to keep your turn radius. Looks like its in the sway bar hardware already.

I don't see a problem with the half heights in there. It's the same as lowering the car as far as clearence.

i think we are missing something in communication here.

I clearly do not have room to move the wheels and tires OUT 1/2". The fender is already sitting on the wheel practically. I'll get another picture later to demonstrate this for you.

Also not sure how body height bushings are going to create more side to side clearance in the fender wells.

[MarkM66]

You're right, there's only so much room to fill. To get it off the fender, you need more backspacing, but that makes your frame clearance worse.

Looks like the wheel is already in negative camber. More would help, but you can't go to far.

The only way you're going to make this set up work is to raise the car a little, and notch the frame where the tire hits.

[jlwdvm]

So are we saying that this set up (if used per Ride Tech's specs) works on some 69's but not others? Is there something "non-stock" about the G/RS set up? I'm looking for answers before I buy wheels and I have the same set up as what is being discussed here...except I have solid Alston stock height body bushings.

[bret]

Could you post pic of the tire size? I'm not finding a 265mm tire in a kdw.
The standard height subframe bushing will serve to raise the body/fenders by about 1/2". You can simulate by adjusting the coilovers up to test fitment.
Also, additional camber will help fender clearance, help turn in for autocross ing, and will not significantly harm tire life
I routinely run cars with 1-1.3 degrees of camber on trips across the US. Theoretically that much camber will decrease tire life but we abuse our tires in so many other ways it doesn't matter.

[bret]

So are we saying that this set up (if used per Ride Tech's specs) works on some 69's but not others? Is there something "non-stock" about the G/RS set up? I'm looking for answers before I buy wheels and I have the same set up as what is being discussed here...except I have solid Alston stock height body bushings.

Every body line on the Goodguys Camaro has had weeks of massaging to achieve the aesthetic effect we were looking for. It is completely useless as a measuring template

One of our sales/tech guys, Kyle, has a 69 with stock inner and outer fenders. I don't remember the tire size on his car...he is out of the office this week...I'll try to get exact info on his car when he returns. I do remember his buddy doing whack job on the alignment at first and he had tire rub problems. When we fixed the alignment it was fine.

[David Pozzi]

More negative camber will move the top of the tire in nearly 1/2". If you plan on Autocrossing your Camaro, start with -1.5 degrees camber & caster at 5.5 deg.

[glr0212]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_153943.jpg
Tire size.

I bought the tire a year or more ago. They don't make the 335 tire anymore either i believe.

[jlwdvm]

Maybe some people that have made this system work with 69 fenders and a 275ish tire will chime in with some real world experience.

[cwylie]

My car is sitting on the ground with 18x9 5.25 backspace wheels. I have not put the steering on yet but I hope to have that ordered soon. They just bairly kiss the inner fenders and if I were to do it again I may have done with a 9 inch 5.5 backspace to give me a little more room at the inner fender. We will see once the car has the engine in it.

[glr0212]

Cwylie,

How low does your car sit?

I would also love to hear from people out there with a 69 that have made this work.

[glr0212]

here is another picture of my tire clearance from below with the wheels straight -

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_154229.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_154148.jpg

[onevoice]

I routinely run cars with 1-1.3 degrees of camber on trips across the US. Theoretically that much camber will decrease tire life but we abuse our tires in so many other ways it doesn't matter.

The fit of tires is unfortunately an inexact science. I have had many 1st gen camaros, and they are not exactly precision instruments. First off, as Bret says above, add some neg camber. If you are just puttering around, it will reduce tire life, but if you ever autocross the car or run it hard, you will wear out tires well before you run the inner edges off with lots of neg camber. There is a guy that autocrosses a 67 camaro in an SCCA class where he is restricted to completely stock parts and he uses neg camber in the 5-6 degree range. It is so much that the front end looks broken.
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/

Second, replace the lowered bushings. Every fraction of an inch counts, and a half inch will definitely help.

Third, it goes without saying that adding a inch or so to a normal backspacing measurement will make inner part of the tire contact the frame sooner. It will reduce your turning radius, but I bet you will probably be able to live with it. You won't actually be making 3 point turns into parking spaces.

Lastly, the stock type inner to outer fender bolts will have to change. It won't kill anything to leave them out, or preferably use something with a flat rounded head.

There is lots of misinformation floating around about the tru-turn setup. It is an excellent product for eliminating bumpsteer, lowering the car, and getting the steering arms out of the way so more BS can be used. It is not an always foolproof method of stuffing the wheelwells with rubber. It looks like your car hasn't been painted yet, so you still have the opportunity to do some minor mods inside the fender and it will be smooth sailing. That is until you change tire brands and the next set in an identical size hits, tires themselves can vary nearly a half an inch from brand to brand.

[glr0212]

Raising the car and adding more neg camber is what I am hearing.
Agree the inner to outer fender bolts need to be low profile.
Changing out the body bushings – still not sure how that will change the side to side clearance. Either way, that isn’t an option for me at this point. The sub frame connectors are welded in.

I’m still pretty skeptical on how this setup works. Even if you get it tucked in there, if the car is lowered with a decent stance there is no getting around the fact that a tire this large will stick out from under the fender when turning. I imagine turning into a raised parking lot would be a fender smash job unless the springs are so stiff the car doesn’t move. What spring rate are people running with this setup?

It would be nice if more people with real world cars chimed in to give their experience. Maybe ridetech can track down a few customers for us. Id’ love to know where I went wrong and it sounds like there are a few other guys that would as well.

[glr0212]

Just for reference here is the Detroit Speed test car. look how much fender clearance this car has in the front. It looks like upwards of an inch!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/1211chp-20%2Bchevy-high-performance-nationals%2Bdetroit-speed-camaro.jpg

[garymac69]

I have had the Truturn system on my '69 for over a year and went with 18x9" with 5 3/4" B.S. and 275 KDW tire. Before ordering wheels and tires I did a test with a borrowed 18x10" 5 3/4" B.S. and 275 tire and decided there was no way it would fit well without some modifications to the outer fenders. My car was already painted and been driven for many years so that was not an option. At my present ride height, the tire sometimes rubs the paint off at the top, bottom area of the fender while turned full lock and while moving over bumpy surfaces (like parking at a field). You can not see the damage except getting down on the ground and looking up at the fender lip. I will have to touch up the paint a couple times a year if I keep it this height. About half the time I do have to make 3 point turns while parking. I have only neg 0.5 camber now and plan to get it realigned to about neg 1.5 in a couple months, so that might help some. Also I removed those top fender bolts about 18 years ago and the fender has not fell off yet.

Gary

[garymac69]

I will also mention that while at the Southern Slam Track event last year, I asked Stacy of DSE to turn the wheel full lock on her '69 Camaro test car. (The car now has a 10.5" wheel and 285 tire) The tire tread touched the top of the fender. And on another DSE equipped Camaro that had a lower ride height, I noticed some slight fender damage (bent) in that area.

My car presently has 1/4" between the tire tread and fender at full lock with no one in the car.

[cwylie]

Mine sits about the same height as yours and I am running the same size tire on a 18x9 5.25 backspace so I should be further from the frame and closer to the fender than you. I still need to finish my front body panel alignment but I am going to have to mod the fender for sure. I really wish ridetech would put out a little better info on what will and will not fit with the tru turn setup. Looking back if I was not so commited with the brakes and everything I would have gone with an aftermarket subframe.

[garymac69]

I agree that Ridetech should modify the info to recommend an 18x9" unless fender modifications are made. Right after I ordered the TruTurn system for my '69 I got to see their '67 48-hour Camaro at the RTTH event. While lying on the ground looking at the setup it appeared the clearances were really tight on that car. That made me worried about fitment on my '69. I'm lucky I was able to borrow a wheel & tire for testing. I have a friend about 90% done with a '69 and he installed the TruTurn system . After looking at my setup he went with 6" B.S. on an 18x9. If he has too much loss of turning radius, he says he might section the frame.

I would like to crawl under that yellow '69 that Ridetech just built for Goodguys to see how they got a 10" on there. Too bad they don't provide detailed pics and instructions on the mods.

[Rod P]

I did a little leg work for you guys today and just want to see if any of this helps you and other builders but first I will help with the last few request and these answers come fromthe Ridtech website on the tru-turn FAQ section

Mine sits about the same height as yours and I am running the same size tire on a 18x9 5.25 backspace so I should be further from the frame and closer to the fender than you. I still need to finish my front body panel alignment but I am going to have to mod the fender for sure. I really wish ridetech would put out a little better info on what will and will not fit with the tru turn setup. Looking back if I was not so commited with the brakes and everything I would have gone with an aftermarket subframe.

Can I really fit a 10" wide wheel with a 275mm tire?
Yes! There is no modification necessary to the subframe, but you WILL need to create clearance on the inner wheelhouse and the outer fender lip. These modifications can be as simple or elaborate as your talent and ambition dictate, but if done nicely, are all but invisible.

I agree that Ridetech should modify the info to recommend an 18x9" unless fender modifications are made. Right after I ordered the TruTurn system for my '69 I got to see their '67 48-hour Camaro at the RTTH event. While lying on the ground looking at the setup it appeared the clearances were really tight on that car. That made me worried about fitment on my '69. I'm lucky I was able to borrow a wheel & tire for testing. I have a friend about 90% done with a '69 and he installed the TruTurn system . After looking at my setup he went with 6" B.S. on an 18x9. If he has too much loss of turning radius, he says he might section the frame.

I would like to crawl under that yellow '69 that Ridetech just built for Goodguys to see how they got a 10" on there. Too bad they don't provide detailed pics and instructions on the mods.

Will I sacrifice any turning radius?
No loss of turning radius! An 18x10 wheel with 5.75" of backspace and a 275/35-18 tire will lightly kiss the framerail or the swaybar at full lock under full compression...just enough to clean the paint off...no damage to the wheel, tire, or other components.


one of the guys here at the shop has a Daily 69 with all the suspension gear and stock fenders, chrome fender trim, and a low ride height and he runs 8 inch wheels, so he pulled it in the shop and I used a recommended 18x10" rim with 5.75 back spacing and a new 275/35/18 to check fitment, right off our shop Tru-Turn display, here's a few pictures and I hope these helps

first the tru-turn setup with the 18x10 rim for reference
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2311_zps3049df04.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0099_zpsb7333209.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0118_zps02915205.jpg

lock to lock views of tire to frame clearances left and right
left turn first
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0108_zpsa3a1a4b3.jpg
here is the tire barely touching the frame under full lock
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0114_zpsb6e1f067.jpg
then right tire just kisses the sway bar under full lock
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0101_zpse88320b5.jpg

and over a half inch away from the arms
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0100_zpsecf3fd13.jpg

next we bring in the victim! a nice 69 camaro with stock unmodified fenders, with chrome fender edges, and all the bolts in place
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0123_zpse9710d04.jpg

here you can see the 8 inch rim and all the clearance
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0124_zps1bd86f6b.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0121_zps056949f1.jpg

now to measure back spacing as a prof of life for everyone
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0134_zps4cff541b.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0135_zps09af6fcb.jpg

it was hard to read the silver ruler with the camera flash so we switched to a standard yellow tape to show the 5.75 backspace
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2358_zpsba053026.jpg

[Rod P]

and I measured the 8 inch rim and it was a 5 inch backspace(it read 4-7/8 in reality)
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2354_zps43dc7d24.jpg

ok now to install the rim, and then I moved the car around the shop to settle the suspension to actual ride height
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2340_zps3f3cc973.jpg

now left and right turns for clearance
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0146_zps3b7a625c.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/DSC_0145_zps27674322.jpg

so the question is how much space is there?
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2341_zps0bdab1df.jpg

enough my fingers fit
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2343_zpsa08eccbe.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2342_zps9ca10ddf.jpg

roughly about a thumbs thickness above the rim
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2350_zps7dcf9a22.jpg

or here is the actual ride height numbers ground to fender edge 23-3/8 inch
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2347_zpsf09cdb22.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/GEDC2349_zpsae5682dd.jpg

[Rod P]

I hope this helps, after we used the car I would roll the fender edge and remove the large bolts or change them to button heads and you shouldn't have to do to much abuse to the inner fender

[Vince@Meanstreets]

every car is different...I still say its all in the alignment..btw....18x10 6 7/8" back space 285/30/18 23.5" fender height -.8 camber 5.6 degrees on caster on a 71 Nova.

Modifications, button head fender well bolts and tru turn. Steering components are 1/8" away from wheel hoop inner step. Fully cleared on a smooth hoop.

Ok, whats up with the bump stops guys.

[Bad94]

Rod, that is a GREAT write up.

Not even at Ride Tech a week and already at it.

Those Forgelines look great on that car.


I know the Camaro and Novas are different, but I run 18x9.5" with 275/35/18 with complete Ride Tech set up. I ran the wheel/tire combo off the 48 Hour Camaro at RTTH's and they do fit.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

you were the inspiration for this car. The owner watched you plow through the autox on youtube and sent it to me. Nice counter swinging your turns BTW. thats old school.lol We are doing a tiny tub on it to fit 295's on 10's in the back.


Rod, that is a GREAT write up.

Not even at Ride Tech a week and already at it.

Those Forgelines look great on that car.


I know the Camaro and Novas are different, but I run 18x9.5" with 275/35/18 with complete Ride Tech set up. I ran the wheel/tire combo off the 48 Hour Camaro at RTTH's and they do fit.

[Damn True]

Great looking No-Go [/hijack]

[onevoice]

I did a little leg work for you guys today and just want to see if any of this helps you and other builders....

Great pictures and explanation. I'm sure everyone would like to see the same done with a 67-8. Any chance of that?

Also, are you 100% sure the wheel you measured is 10" wide?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Great pictures and explanation. I'm sure everyone would like to see the same done with a 67-8. Any chance of that?

Also, are you 100% sure the wheel you measured is 10" wide?

yeah, cause a 10" wide wheel will measure 11" lip to lip. <:P

[Rod P]

you were the inspiration for this car. The owner watched you plow through the autox on youtube and sent it to me. Nice counter swinging your turns BTW. thats old school.lol We are doing a tiny tub on it to fit 295's on 10's in the back.

Thanks Vinny! that Nova is LOW!!!!! dang! show that micro tub install off

[Rod P]

Rod, that is a GREAT write up.

Not even at Ride Tech a week and already at it.

Those Forgelines look great on that car.


I know the Camaro and Novas are different, but I run 18x9.5" with 275/35/18 with complete Ride Tech set up. I ran the wheel/tire combo off the 48 Hour Camaro at RTTH's and they do fit.

Thanks! I also run run a 9.5 rim on my 1968 camaro with a complete Ride Tech set up in a 17" rim and I have a crazy offset at 5.5 and they are pushed out to the very edge with alot of fender massaging :hairpullout:

[Rod P]

Great pictures and explanation. I'm sure everyone would like to see the same done with a 67-8. Any chance of that?

Also, are you 100% sure the wheel you measured is 10" wide?

:wacko: yes :hairpullout: I knew I forgot to show one measurement!!! when my 68 Camaro gets to Indy I will pull it in the shop and put the very same forgeline on for everyone and I ordered that rim to exact dimensions just for the tru-turn fitment test and to have on display

[Rod P]

on a addendum note, so after looking over different installs, my recommendation to EVERYONE is to measure your own car for its back spacing the one biggest factor I found in the installs is the brake packages that are used I found the some CPP brake kits with hubs pushes out the wheel mounting surface just over a 1/4 inch, and the some willwood kits push the mounting surface out almost a 1/2 inch, so unless you know that (you measured) the wheel mounting surface is still in the original location or you are using the very same Baer Brake package we used the 5.75 suggestion would be off by 1/2 inch, also please use the alignment settings given, make sure the sheet metal on your car is aligned, have good body bushings, the tru-turn kit pushes the tire width limit of a stock frame to max performance, so the rest of the assembly needs to be of the same caliber

[gray776]

Great write ups Rod! I agree that you should always measure for yourself especially with the differences in brake kits. Could you take one more measurement for me? It would be nice to have a reference with Ridetech's setup as installed, for dimension or track width to the rotor. Say from the frame to WMS, or spindle to WMS? Does that make sense? Then the rest of us could adjust by comparing that against our own brake systems to determine if our actual BS measurements seem correct.

Its probably not that important, given that we should measure ourselves, but thought it might help someone.

Thanks,

Jason

[jlwdvm]

Ya...what Gray said! I'm running Wilwood 13" 1-piece rotors.

[glr0212]

First off, thanks for the pictures and write up!

I see the car you used is a little higher than mine. Maybe I should bump mine up and realign it and see where i am at.

Here is my main question to you, and still some of the heartache I have with this setup. How do you drive a car with this setup when the fender is sitting on the wheel during a turn?? If the fender moves down at all its going right into the tire and rubbing like a mofo. (ie turning into a raised parking lot or making a high speed turn)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/DSC_0145_zps27674322.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/turn%20fender.jpg

[glr0212]

I think it is important! Giving a base track width or some other reference dimension will help people tremendously. I was a bit surprised to see the ridetech president say without qualification that you have to have a 5.75" BS.

Maybe since RodP has a setup on a stand he can give us that reference dimension.

Great write ups Rod! I agree that you should always measure for yourself especially with the differences in brake kits. Could you take one more measurement for me? It would be nice to have a reference with Ridetech's setup as installed, for dimension or track width to the rotor. Say from the frame to WMS, or spindle to WMS? Does that make sense? Then the rest of us could adjust by comparing that against our own brake systems to determine if our actual BS measurements seem correct.

Its probably not that important, given that we should measure ourselves, but thought it might help someone.

Thanks,

Jason

[Damn True]

Great write ups Rod! I agree that you should always measure for yourself especially with the differences in brake kits. Could you take one more measurement for me? It would be nice to have a reference with Ridetech's setup as installed, for dimension or track width to the rotor. Say from the frame to WMS, or spindle to WMS? Does that make sense? Then the rest of us could adjust by comparing that against our own brake systems to determine if our actual BS measurements seem correct.

Its probably not that important, given that we should measure ourselves, but thought it might help someone.

Thanks,

Jason

It seems to me that the critical measurement is WMS/WMS. I'd assumed that any size recommendations given by RT were based on using a duplicate of their setup. Change anything that impacts WMS/WMS (CA's, rotor hats, hubs) and those recommendations go out the window.

....and given the frequency with which there are variations between cars, even from the same year and same plant it seems incumbent on the buyer to do a lot of measuring before purchasing wheels & tires.

[rchaskin]

every car is different...I still say its all in the alignment..btw....18x10 6 7/8" back space 285/30/18 23.5" fender height -.8 camber 5.6 degrees on caster on a 71 Nova.

Modifications, button head fender well bolts and tru turn. Steering components are 1/8" away from wheel hoop inner step. Fully cleared on a smooth hoop.

Ok, whats up with the bump stops guys.

Uh.....this looks awesome.

[Rod P]

First off, thanks for the pictures and write up!

I see the car you used is a little higher than mine. Maybe I should bump mine up and realign it and see where i am at.

Here is my main question to you, and still some of the heartache I have with this setup. How do you drive a car with this setup when the fender is sitting on the wheel during a turn?? If the fender moves down at all its going right into the tire and rubbing like a mofo. (ie turning into a raised parking lot or making a high speed turn)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/DSC_0145_zps27674322.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/turn%20fender.jpg

the wheel negative cambers inward away from the fender that's part of the reason for the tall spindle...to help the camber curve, but you should roll the inner fender, I know it looks like it should hit.....but the wheel does camber inward, on my car I cant get a pencil between the fender and tire and with the camber movement it doesn't hit, even on extreme movement

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/2013%20ridetech-hotchkis%20upgrades/IMG_0449_zps76dc509f.jpg

[Rod P]

Great write ups Rod! I agree that you should always measure for yourself especially with the differences in brake kits. Could you take one more measurement for me? It would be nice to have a reference with Ridetech's setup as installed, for dimension or track width to the rotor. Say from the frame to WMS, or spindle to WMS? Does that make sense? Then the rest of us could adjust by comparing that against our own brake systems to determine if our actual BS measurements seem correct.

Its probably not that important, given that we should measure ourselves, but thought it might help someone.

Thanks,

Jason

agreed Jason I will take the extra measurements, I will remove the coilovers to get you guys the measurements at full drop, ride height, and full compression, I will try monday or tuesday, in between projects

[cwylie]

on a addendum note, so after looking over different installs, my recommendation to EVERYONE is to measure your own car for its back spacing the one biggest factor I found in the installs is the brake packages that are used I found the some CPP brake kits with hubs pushes out the wheel mounting surface just over a 1/4 inch, and the some willwood kits push the mounting surface out almost a 1/2 inch, so unless you know that (you measured) the wheel mounting surface is still in the original location or you are using the very same Baer Brake package we used the 5.75 suggestion would be off by 1/2 inch, also please use the alignment settings given, make sure the sheet metal on your car is aligned, have good body bushings, the tru-turn kit pushes the tire width limit of a stock frame to max performance, so the rest of the assembly needs to be of the same caliber

So the wilwood kit is narrower or wider than the baer?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

So the wilwood kit is narrower or wider than the baer?

The Wilwood hat that I have is a tick under 5/16" the Baer is under a 1/4". Point is you have to measure and measure again.

[brownz]

I also have a nova with tru turn running 18x9.5 wheels with 5.75bs. The onlt issue I have is a slight rub at lock. and this is because I dont have the ride tech arm on my car. I did remove the top inner fender bolts just to be safe.

[cwylie]

What brakes are you using?

I also have a nova with tru turn running 18x9.5 wheels with 5.75bs. The onlt issue I have is a slight rub at lock. and this is because I dont have the ride tech arm on my car. I did remove the top inner fender bolts just to be safe.

[glr0212]

Hey Rod,

What is the ride height measured to the top of fender on your 68? Is it also 23 3/8"?

[Rod P]

Hey Rod,

What is the ride height measured to the top of fender on your 68? Is it also 23 3/8"?

I would like to measure it for you, but its 3000+ miles away from me right now

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I would like to measure it for you, but its 3000+ miles away from me right now

liar, its more like 2465 miles but who's looking. : )

[Rod P]

liar, its more like 2465 miles but who's looking. : )

ha ha ha ha ha:ohsnap:

[Buick Grand National Guy]

Please note that you cannot compare wheel/tire setup on a car with DSE front subframe with a car with stock subframe! Reason is DSE subframe is designed to allow sharper turning radius by moving frame rails inboard. Splined sway bar is also designed to allow sharper turning radius. Result is ability to move wheels inboard for more clearance between fender lip and outside of the tire.
Conrad

[glr0212]

Conrad,
Clearly dse is a in a different class of suspension upgrades but the point is they gave themselves more than an 1.5 " clearance to the fender when they designed their subframe. If you want a no compromise setup to fit a 275 tire ridetech is not quite that.

[brownz]

What brakes are you using?

Im running oem c5 zo6 brakes

[jlwdvm]

Heck, I could have saved myself some measuring and head-scratching if I would have thrown $4k more at my Firebird and just bought a DSE subframe!:)

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Heck, I could have saved myself some measuring and head-scratching if I would have thrown $4k more at my Firebird and just bought a DSE subframe!:)

Whaaaatttt? You think it's the first time someone spent that much money just to go up a size. QQ

[Rod P]

Heck, I could have saved myself some measuring and head-scratching if I would have thrown $4k more at my Firebird and just bought a DSE subframe!:)

4000 more and you only get the front suspension:lostmarbles: there BASE Camaro frame is $7000 bucks.....now that's just the front boys and girls.....Ridetechs top of the line 1st gen camaro suspension setup the - Level 3 is $7050 for just fifty bucks more and you get EVERYTHING, front to rear, upper and lower control arms, tru-turn steering with tall spindles, 1000lbs per inch front swaybar, rear triangulated four link and kick ass triple adjust coil over shocks.......that's easy math...with the extra coin saved you can order those forgelines with the proper offset and good Baer brakes and get done

[cwylie]

So I called Baer and their brakes do not offset the wheel mounting surface to their knowledge. The wilwood kit I have adds .38 inches of offset per side. So with that being said my wheels at 18x9 5.25 backspace should actually sit .12 further inside than the 18x10 5.75 backspace ride tech recommends. I have to get all my panel alignment perfect in the front but its going to be really close. Far closer than the picture of the blue car above.

All that being said it would be extremely helpful if RideTech provided better information on what fits and doest fit or even to take into account the brake offsets when ordering your wheels.

Once I get all this figured out I still dont know for sure my oil pan and headers are going to fit with the tru turn.

[Rod P]

So I called Baer and their brakes do not offset the wheel mounting surface to their knowledge. The wilwood kit I have adds .38 inches of offset per side. So with that being said my wheels at 18x9 5.25 backspace should actually sit .12 further inside than the 18x10 5.75 backspace ride tech recommends.

.38 per side do you mean 9/16 of an inch per side? from this conversion chart (http://www.saginawpipe.com/conversioncolor.pdf), that means the brakes push the wheel outward 9/16 of an inch per side and then you ran a rim thats .500 thousandths (or 1/2 wider offset than recommended) so 9/16 + 1/2

Find the lowest common denominator
* 1/2 by 8
= 8/16
Now you can add them both together since you have the same denominator
9/16 + 8/16 =
9+8 = 17
17/16 = 1 1/16

so your 1inch and a 1/16 too wide on your wheel and brake selection, on your car with the added brake dimension you stated I would have recommended about a 6.00 back space


lets use a 10 inch rim for example
5.25 back space would stick OUTWARD .500 thousands (1/2 inch) more than a 5.75 back space

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/aarims_zpsd0c6cc67.jpg

hope this helps

[Damn True]

AFAICT .38 of an inch per side is 38/100 per side or 76/100 total increase in width. Just over 3/4" (by .01") total.

Did I miss something?

[Rod P]

All that being said it would be extremely helpful if RideTech provided better information on what fits and doesn't fit or even to take into account the brake offsets when ordering your wheels.


a lot of time is spent testing what fits

this how basic back space is measured here, we lift the arm up to ride height and pick the tire width we would like to run
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/wheelfitf_zps908e8157.jpg

next we check for clearance at ball joints and steering arms
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/wheelfitc_zps9ca31251.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/wheelfitb_zpsfe05032d.jpg

and its simple after that it gives you the backspace, then we order a rims in that spacing bolt them on and drive, and we can shim the rim from there for final spacing
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/wheelfitd_zps0a5eb57f.jpg

[Vince@Meanstreets]

.38 per side do you mean 9/16 of an inch per side? from this conversion chart (http://www.saginawpipe.com/conversioncolor.pdf), that means the brakes push the wheel outward 9/16 of an inch per side and then you ran a rim thats .500 thousandths (or 1/2 wider offset than recommended) so 9/16 + 1/2

Find the lowest common denominator
* 1/2 by 8
= 8/16
Now you can add them both together since you have the same denominator
9/16 + 8/16 =
9+8 = 17
17/16 = 1 1/16

so your 1inch and a 1/16 too wide on your wheel and brake selection, on your car with the added brake dimension you stated I would have recommended about a 6.00 back space


lets use a 10 inch rim for example
5.25 back space would stick OUTWARD .500 thousands (1/2 inch) more than a 5.75 back space

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/aarims_zpsd0c6cc67.jpg

hope this helps

SOMEONES been hanging out with Britt :lostmarbles:

[marolf101x]

Rod forgot to add that when checking for proper wheel fitment we stroke the suspension and turn the wheels to full lock. This makes sure we don't hit the finder at full compression, or the frame or sway bar at full lock in any situation.

It's simple to do. . .just remove the spring from the coil over, bolt the shock back in, and use a jack to stroke the suspension.

I STRONGLY suggest anyone trying to fit the largest wheel/tire under their car buy a GOOD measuring tool. The one in the pic is about $400. Sounds pricey, but what's Forgeline charge to change a wheel that doesn't fit your car?

[Rod P]

AFAICT .38 of an inch per side is 38/100 per side or 76/100 total increase in width. Just over 3/4" (by .01") total.

Did I miss something?

yep you right True!! that damn chart was off :sarcasm_smiley:

[Rod P]

some of the other things we spend time testing and fitting are spindles from other manufactures you can see in the picture here what we have on the shelf many to test from Heidts, DSE, ATS/speedtech, L&H and many others, testing for offsets, camber curves, bump steer among a few others things :thankyou:

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/buildspindles_zps228b0b79.jpg

[Stovebolter]

Bret or Josh,

Not intending to high jack a thread but I feel I'm covering a couple bases at once for others that have asked some of the same questions in other threads in the distant past .

First. Complements to you and your crew for this system. I am very happy with the engineering on this system. I went with the True Turn system and the Triple adj air bag coil overs. I have only installed the front so far and have done a couple test runs and I'm happy to report no rubbing after my mods to the inner fender. That is with 9.5s and 5.75 bs on a 69 Camaro with a big block.

Second. What is the suggested eye to eye for the front ( and rear) coil overs at ride height. I'm need that to mock up the Moser floater. I'm doing my own torque arm set up. I'm roughly 24" from floor to body line on front fender now.....with a big block at this time.

Third. On the 48 Hour Camaro, did you use Holleys newest engine mount system which places the motor over an inch from firewall? I can't get the Holley/Hooker guys to confirm anyone has used their newest system with the Ridetech True Turn system. Trying to find what will work.

Thanks,
David

[cwylie]

Yeah your math was a little off but I think we are headed in the correct direction. Taking my brakes into account your are correct I should have ordered a 18x9 5.75 backspace but I went off what RideTech had posted on the website which was a 10 inch wide 5.75 backspace wheel would fit. There were no stipulations/recommendations around brake setup or anything like that and I really feel there should be. Even Brett stepped in earlier in the tread and stated the OP ordered the wrong wheels and should have ordered a 18x10 5.75 backspace without even looking at any other info. To he honest I am pretty disappointed with Ridetech and looking back I would have just gone with a aftermarket subframe. It least then I would have know exactly what fit and what didnt and I not be spending money doing the testing I feel Ridetech should have done before advertising their setup as a one stop shop.

[glr0212]

Bret or Josh,

Not intending to high jack a thread but I feel I'm covering a couple bases at once for others that have asked some of the same questions in other threads in the distant past .

First. Complements to you and your crew for this system. I am very happy with the engineering on this system. I went with the True Turn system and the Triple adj air bag coil overs. I have only installed the front so far and have done a couple test runs and I'm happy to report no rubbing after my mods to the inner fender. That is with 9.5s and 5.75 bs on a 69 Camaro with a big block.

Second. What is the suggested eye to eye for the front ( and rear) coil overs at ride height. I'm need that to mock up the Moser floater. I'm doing my own torque arm set up. I'm roughly 24" from floor to body line on front fender now.....with a big block at this time.

Third. On the 48 Hour Camaro, did you use Holleys newest engine mount system which places the motor over an inch from firewall? I can't get the Holley/Hooker guys to confirm anyone has used their newest system with the Ridetech True Turn system. Trying to find what will work.

Thanks,
David

Would love to see some pictures of the 69. what tire size did you use? What is the ride height?

[Stovebolter]

Would love to see some pictures of the 69. what tire size did you use? What is the ride height?

I don't have any good pictures like yours but I did do a quick shot with the coil overs aired down. I'm running stock sub frame, Kore3 short spindle 14" brake kit and hubs, the Ridetech True Turn kit, and 18x9.5s with 5.75 bs and 275/35/18s. (Edit: stock height body bushings)

I did turn the flange inside of the outer fender (for mounting the inner) straight up and split the inner fender in multiple places so as to stretch the inner fender to the shape I wanted. The bolt you see in your picture is horizontal now on mine and plenty of distance away from tires edge. The only bolts I felt needed removed was the bottom most rear bolt. The tires did seem to just touch it on both sides. I had mine set at 24.5" from floor to body line in middle of fenders. ( edit: this ride height was after airing back up. )

My only trouble has been figuring out what LS motor swap setup will work with the tie rod adaptor. I think I have that answered now. Todd suggested using the newest Holley motor plates, trans crossmember, long tube headers, and modifying the old 302-1 pan slightly to clear the adaptor.

I'll try my best to remember to get some better pictures.

David

[bret]

Yeah your math was a little off but I think we are headed in the correct direction. Taking my brakes into account your are correct I should have ordered a 18x9 5.75 backspace but I went off what RideTech had posted on the website which was a 10 inch wide 5.75 backspace wheel would fit. There were no stipulations/recommendations around brake setup or anything like that and I really feel there should be. Even Brett stepped in earlier in the tread and stated the OP ordered the wrong wheels and should have ordered a 18x10 5.75 backspace without even looking at any other info. To he honest I am pretty disappointed with Ridetech and looking back I would have just gone with a aftermarket subframe. It least then I would have know exactly what fit and what didnt and I not be spending money doing the testing I feel Ridetech should have done before advertising their setup as a one stop shop.

Have you driven your car yet?

[Stovebolter]

I wonder....could it be a difference in hubs? Where did you get your hubs?

I only mention that because of all the frustrations I went through on a street rod build. Shouldnt be, but different manufactures had different wms to wms distances because they were made different. All of that and they claimed to be OEM Mustang II rotors.

[cwylie]

No I have not. I have been too busy trying to figure out what parts will or will not work with the tru turn setup. No one could answer me if the new holley pan and motor mount setup would work with the tru turn steering but it looks like Todd from Holley has figured out it will not. I already had my wheels built and mounted (based off the ridetech specs which will not fit any other setup) on my car before running across all this information. I really wish Ridetech would have provided better information on what exactly is needed to make this setup work and not just stating a 18x10 5.75 backspace will work. There is no mention of fender modifications, header clearance requirements, oil pan/motor mount requirements, mention of its only been tested by them using Baer brakes. I honestly feel like there is not enough information provided and I searched and searched for info but never found half as much as what has been discussed in this thread.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1707895-new-hooker-holley-1st-gen-parts-compatibility-ridetech-truturn.html

[bret]

No I have not. I have been too busy trying to figure out what parts will or will not work with the tru turn setup. No one could answer me if the new holley pan and motor mount setup would work with the tru turn steering but it looks like Todd from Holley has figured out it will not. Im really regretting committing to the tru turn setup without knowing about all these fitment issues. I already had my wheels built and mounted (based off the ridetech specs which will not fit any other setup) on my car before running across all this information. I really wish Ridetech would have provided better information on what exactly is needed to make this setup work and not just stating a 18x10 5.75 backspace will work. There is no mention of fender modifications, header clearance requirements, oil pan/motor mount requirements, mention of its only been tested by them using Baer brakes. I honestly feel like I was mislead and I searched and searched for info but never found half as much as what has been discussed in this thread.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1707895-new-hooker-holley-1st-gen-parts-compatibility-ridetech-truturn.html

Mislead?

Certainly not our intention in any way. We know a large number of combinations that work fine, but I'm not sure how to go about determining every combination that will NOT work.

As a hotrodder in your position, I would want my money back so I could start over with something that I felt better about. I will certainly accommodate that...and offer my apologies that we could not meet your expectations. If you could email me directly [[email protected]], with your invoice and contact information I can get that process started for you. Hopefully there is a system out there that is more universal.

[cwylie]

So maybe mislead was a little strong, sorry. I am very frustrated at this point because I feel like I keep swapping out parts. I wish it were as easy as returning the parts for a refund, I already have wheels custom built on the car based off the tru turn setup and they will not fit anything else. The case is the same for the headers, motor mounts and oil pan. In the very beginning of this project I decided to keep the stock subframe because of the information I got from the ridetech website on the tru turn setup. After almost abandoning the stock subframe at one point I figure I was already invested into this setup and proceeded forward. I searched and searched for information trying to make sure I was ordering the correct wheels/brakes/oilpan/motor mounts to use with the tru turn setup. I did the best I could but what I have learned from this thread alone would have completely changed several of the decisions I have made.

I guess my frustration is this. Very little of the information discussed on this thread as far as brake setup, wheel offsets and fender modifications are in the ridetech information. If it would have been mentioned in any of the information to make sure your brake setup maintains the stock width it would have caused me to order my wheels differently. I went off the blind assumption the information on the website was correct and while its not wrong I feel more could be provided on what exactly you need to do/check/modify to make it fit. Based off the information on the website and even the information I have seen you (Brett) post here it makes it all seem very simple and straight forward when that not the case at all. Im not asking for a list of all the parts that do not fit I would have just been happy with a list of parts to DO fit.

If your going to market this setup is a valid alternative to a new subframe there needs to be more information provided. If I would have gone with a Scott Mock/DSE/Speedtech subframe I would have know exactly what wheels, brakes, oil pan, motor mounts I would have needed. At this point the only part I dont actually own for the tru turn setup is the actual tru turn parts. I already have the a arms, spindles, coilovers, brakes for stock style spindles, wheels, tires, oil pan (thats not going to work), headers (that may work), motor mounts, and who knows what else. I cant just return the ridetech parts as the wheels I spent $1600 to have custom built based off the ridetech specs will not fit any other setup. I am frustrated because I have put so much into this setup based off the information read from ridetech that makes it sound so simple and thats not the case. So your right mislead is a little strong maybe misinformed is better.

[bret]

going home to dinner...we'll work toward solving your problem tomorrow.

[Blake Foster]

It is unfortunate that your project is not going according to plan. there are so many options these days that is can be overwhelming to say the least. it is like with our stuff, we know what fits if you use all the parts we know and make and use. if you called me and asked what wheels work on a truturn
I would just say I don't know. if you ask about Speedtech parts I would know the answer. that being said I am sure Bret will work with you to fix what he can.
good luck keep your head up this is hot rodding

[Stovebolter]

No I have not. I have been too busy trying to figure out what parts will or will not work with the tru turn setup. No one could answer me if the new holley pan and motor mount setup would work with the tru turn steering but it looks like Todd from Holley has figured out it will not. I already had my wheels built and mounted (based off the ridetech specs which will not fit any other setup) on my car before running across all this information. I really wish Ridetech would have provided better information on what exactly is needed to make this setup work and not just stating a 18x10 5.75 backspace will work. There is no mention of fender modifications, header clearance requirements, oil pan/motor mount requirements, mention of its only been tested by them using Baer brakes. I honestly feel like there is not enough information provided and I searched and searched for info but never found half as much as what has been discussed in this thread.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1707895-new-hooker-holley-1st-gen-parts-compatibility-ridetech-truturn.html

Actually Todd told me that the new Holley/Hooker system will work with the Ridetech system with some modifications. But you must use the old Holley 302-1 pan to be able to clear the Ridetech tie rod adaptor. Then that pan must either be clearanced on the front of the pan to clear the Xmember or the Xmember must be notched to clear the pan. From what I gather the new system corrects all of the clearance and alignment issues that were prevalent with the old system. I am going to give it a try.

Don't give up yet brother. It's just a car. You'll get there. Unfortunately there are soo many options and combinations. Believe me, I'm the worlds greatest skeptic. Lol.

David

[jlwdvm]

This guy is making a stock frame with tru turn, headers, an LS, and 265 tires work:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/93691-1969-Camaro-Build-in-PA/page2

Check out post #26.

[Rod P]

it has been a pretty good info thread, some complaining now and then but, I have tried to gather as much info as I can get, while still performing at work, this morning I grabbed spindles, tape measures, tools and set out to get some measurements that many said they wanted on the frame and mounting surfaces

so spindles first......stock vs. RideTech Drop, as you can see other than the RideTech spindle being taller the build dimensions are the same...
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/spindle1_zpseb617c44.jpg

the snouts line up
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/spindle2_zpsfa63d430.jpg

the bearing surfaces line up
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/spindle3_zps4be55e9d.jpg

the the ball joint mounting location is the same
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/spindle4_zps4b1a3669.jpg

so the wheel is not moved out or in from stock spindle locations
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/spindle5_zpsa7f2ef9f.jpg

next is frame measurements.....hold on

[Rod P]

now to the frame....

first I removed the shock, and lifted the arms to ride height
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure10_zpsc59ebd6c.jpg

bolted angle stock to the hub with lug nuts
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure12_zpsc530ded0.jpg

bolted flat stock between the arm and frame
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure13_zpsa917ba81.jpg

simple measurement between the two(2)
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure16_zps81ab7b55.jpg

here it is from frame tower to rim mounting surface 15 1/8 inches
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure15_zpsb97dba1b.jpg

I will do the other side without the hub and give a base dimension on the spindle face!

[cwylie]

I have been working with Bret this morning to try to solve the oil pan clearance. As soon as the parts show up I will post my findings.

[bret]

Bret or Josh,

Not intending to high jack a thread but I feel I'm covering a couple bases at once for others that have asked some of the same questions in other threads in the distant past .

First. Complements to you and your crew for this system. I am very happy with the engineering on this system. I went with the True Turn system and the Triple adj air bag coil overs. I have only installed the front so far and have done a couple test runs and I'm happy to report no rubbing after my mods to the inner fender. That is with 9.5s and 5.75 bs on a 69 Camaro with a big block.

Second. What is the suggested eye to eye for the front ( and rear) coil overs at ride height. I'm need that to mock up the Moser floater. I'm doing my own torque arm set up. I'm roughly 24" from floor to body line on front fender now.....with a big block at this time.

Third. On the 48 Hour Camaro, did you use Holleys newest engine mount system which places the motor over an inch from firewall? I can't get the Holley/Hooker guys to confirm anyone has used their newest system with the Ridetech True Turn system. Trying to find what will work.

Thanks,
David

We used the Holley cast LS oil pan, Hooker LS headers and Hooker engine mounts in the "stock" location on the 48 Hour car and the Goodguys Camaro.

On the shock ride heights...if you go to the website and look at [whatever product you want] we have a PDF of the instructions listed there. http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-coilover-system-level-2.html

Inside the instructions is a bill of materials that lists the shock stroke that is included with the system. The ride height has a bit of adjustment available, but is generally about 50-60% of the extended height. In the case of the early Camaro, the 3.6 front shock will have a ride height of approx. 11.5" and the rear 5" stroke shock will have a ride height of approx. 14.5".

[bret]

I have been working with Bret this morning to try to solve the oil pan clearance. As soon as the parts show up I will post my findings.

Yep...been talking with Chris...his frustrations are the same ones all of us hotrodders go through during a build. If it was easy it wouldn't be worth it!

I don't have any truly new information here that has not been gone over by everyone else. Rod is doing a GREAT job of translating dimensions and measurements into english. I think the main point is that these old cars can be obstinate. The most perfectly designed and built component will fit on 99 out of 100 cars. We've all owned #100 at one time or another. Not trying to minimize his frustrations...just comiserating.

[Rod P]

olK5wBFKF8g

[Solid LT1]

here is another picture of my tire clearance from below with the wheels straight -

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_154229.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_154148.jpg

5/16 button head screws will do a world of wonder for tire clearance and wear on your Camaro. Taken from my tricks I did to my 1st Gen Z/28 back in the 70s when 245/60-15 Goodyear Wingfoots were the tire to have:thumbsup:

[jlwdvm]

Maybe a little off topic but....can Ride Tech coil overs be removed from the Strong Arms without taking the a-arms apart? I need to get some measurements with wheel travel figured in so I can get some wheels ordered.

[glr0212]

I think it's at least 2 out of 100 cars Bret! Don’t forget about me.

I appreciate all of the effort you guys are putting in on showing us the measurements. I'm dying to make some ride height adjustments and checking my measurements vs what you have.

but if we are being honest - the numbers, at least on this thread are 2 out of 3 or 2 out 4 at best on 69 Camaros that don’t work with this setup. Don’t you guys have more 69’s out there running this system? Can you reach out to them and get some photos and feedback on how they made it work?

I still have heartburn on turning the wheel and having the tire hit the fender. I get the negative camber gain during turn in, but the tire still has a travel arc and I don't see how it doesn't hit the fender. There is not enough room on a 69.

Rod keeps giving me a picture of his 68 as proof but they have different a fender profile. The 67/68 is much more rounded which gives a not insignificant amount of additional clearance to the tire.

This picture sums it up. If you can show me your 69 pulling into a raised drive area at 5-10 mph with the wheels near lock without cringe inducing fender rub, I will shut my mouth and get back to work

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/DSC_0145_zps27674322.jpg

[Rod P]

Maybe a little off topic but....can Ride Tech coil overs be removed from the Strong Arms without taking the a-arms apart? I need to get some measurements with wheel travel figured in so I can get some wheels ordered.

no you have to break them apart they are just to tight a fit in the Camaro frame pocket to remove

[cwylie]

GLR0212- What brake setup are you running? Do you know how much the brakes offset the mounting surface from the stock location?

[marolf101x]

GLR0212- You keep showing the same picture of our 69. The fact is that there IS clearance, even in that picture. Maybe it's not a great angle, but I watched over Rod as he did this. . .it is my job. And I assure you there is room to put your hand in there. . .not a ton of room, but room enough.

You must remember, this is an upgrade to allow you to wedge a 275 tire under an OE subframe. There's no doubt it's tight. Of course DSE is going to have more clearance. . .they had the ability to move the frame rails and other parts. We are still dealing with the stock locations.

First, we need to figure out how far out the brakes have moved the wheels (if at all).
Then we need to add -1.0 to -1.5 degrees negative camber (this is the BIGGEST part of making this work!) Those that want to put a 275 under the front are typically building a "track" car and need the negative camber anyway.
Finally you'll need to remove/replace the fender bolt and roll the fender lip.

I understand the 67/68 wheel opening is more round than the 69 and the 69 hangs down over the tire more. However, the 69 fender is pushed out further than the early cars.

[Rod P]

I have done some of the extra work here to give everyone one a LOT more info....you have the measurement?? 15 1/8 inches simple if its more than that...then we need to figure out your offset, if it is the same 15 1/8 inches, then you have the wrong offset rims, also simple just re-hoop the wheels, forgeline (or most forge rim builders will re-hoop at minimal cost) and then you can run fatty rims, and Impress friends and influence enemies

[garymac69]

on a addendum note, so after looking over different installs, my recommendation to EVERYONE is to measure your own car for its back spacing the one biggest factor I found in the installs is the brake packages that are used I found the some CPP brake kits with hubs pushes out the wheel mounting surface just over a 1/4 inch, and the some willwood kits push the mounting surface out almost a 1/2 inch, so unless you know that (you measured) the wheel mounting surface is still in the original location or you are using the very same Baer Brake package we used the 5.75 suggestion would be off by 1/2 inch, also please use the alignment settings given, make sure the sheet metal on your car is aligned, have good body bushings, the tru-turn kit pushes the tire width limit of a stock frame to max performance, so the rest of the assembly needs to be of the same caliber

This probably explains my situation with the additional 1/4"....I already had a CPP brake kit installed prior to purchasing the TruTurn system, although the CPP rep stated the kit did not change track width. I wish I had those measurements of track width prior to ordering wheels, I would have liked a 10". Since putting a 275 on the front with stock frame is pushing the limits, there is obviously no room for error. It would be great if Ridetech could help out us amateur hotrodders and add a technical page with the details.

[cwylie]

Im still working on my inner fender to tire clearance issues but I didnt find out the Wilwood brakes add .38 of a inch to each side. If I would have realized this before ordering me wheels I could have just ordered wheels with a 1/2 inch more backspace and Im betting I would have plenty of clearance. I did call Baer and they state they do not change the track width at all.

I do think it would be very helpful if ridetech could call out we should be aware of the brake kit that is used and and be mindful of any extra track with that is added when ordering your wheels. It sure could have saved me some trouble.

[garymac69]

Also, the tire selection may make a difference, since this system pushes the limits with the stock subframe. Tire section widths vary by manufacturer and that Falken tire shown in the pictures has a more rounded tread shoulder than the KDW's I have.

[Rod P]

I do think it would be very helpful if ridetech could call out we should be aware of the brake kit that is used and and be mindful of any extra track with that is added when ordering your wheels. It sure could have saved me some trouble.

we did? that's what this whole thread is about and you have said the same thing over and over...


..you have the measurement?? 15 1/8 inches simple if its more than that...then we need to figure out your offset, if it is the same 15 1/8 inches, then you have the wrong offset rims, also simple just re-hoop the wheels, forgeline (or most forge rim builders will re-hoop at minimal cost) and then you can run fatty rims, and Impress friends and influence enemies

didn't you have the 5.250 backspace rims?? I'm the NEW guy but I will tell you if that's your backspace, your rims wont fit you have the wrong backspacing, you read the offset incorrectly you say you have 5.250 because you wanted them .500(1/2) narrower than 5.750, you went the wrong way, to be narrower(more fender space) by .500(1/2) you should have ordered 6.250...the 5.250 is very close to what I have but even then you're still to wide....RideTech recommends 5.750 back space

[Blake Foster]

And they say anyone can build one of these cars, IT's easy, why should I pay you to do it??



CUZ THAT'S WHAT WE (the builders and manufacturers on here. not just Speedtech) DO

no disrespect to the posters but in this game it is ALL about the measurements

[Rod P]

And they say anyone can build one of these cars, IT's easy, why should I pay you to do it??



CUZ THAT'S WHAT WE (the builders and manufacturers on here. not just Speedtech) DO

no disrespect to the posters but in this game it is ALL about the measurements

:lmao: tape measure! cheap tool that makes you look smart and makes parts fit

[Damn True]

Notfernuthin but.....


I'm at a loss as to why someone wouldn't think this would have an impact.

[v8s only]

I have 18x10 with 6 inch back spacing bfg kdw 275 35 18 tires wilwood brakes speedteck control arms and fits perfect with minor modification to the inner fender. I did lose some turning radius had to weld a washer to the steering arms so it touches the control arms so the tire wont rub on the frame. I also tried it on two friends cars 69 e 67 fits on both with out any fender mods only losing minor turning radius tire brand does make a difference I have two sets of rims same back spacing one with bfg kdw they are rounded at the edges fits perfect others are toyo 888 did not fit well I made then fit but required a lot more fender modification.

[Rod P]

tire brand does make a difference I have two sets of rims same back spacing one with bfg kdw they are rounded at the edges fits perfect others are toyo 888 did not fit well I made then fit but required a lot more fender modification.

yes it does, those 888's are really square edged, more like a track tire and they are hard to fit that way, there idea of the millimeter measurement is a little wider also BFG is also wider than Falken's millimeter measurement

[jlwdvm]

Great...I'm using R888's! Good thing my Firebird is still in primer I guess. I wonder if I could go with a little more back spacing to make them fit better?

[glr0212]

CW - I'm using C6 Z06 brakes from kore 3. they use a machined hub similar to the wilwood pictured above.

The fender bolts are not an issue with me. I get it, i can take them out or put a button head in there. That's not what worries me. I'm also not worried about rolling the inner part of the fender if necessary. What is disconcerting is seeing how the fender lays over the tire when the wheel is turned. The fender sits on the tire.

Seriously, you guys are helping me and I'm sure others out by going through this exercise with us. If you have more pictures or you have a car in the shop you can make a short video of the car maneuvering it will help my confidence tremendously. There is nothing worse than putting tons of time and money into something and then hitting a wall like this.

#1 i may need somewhere between 1/8" to 3/16" less BS (effectively pushing the tire farther out...) Will double check the measurements. I'm basing this on the fact that I do a little more than "graze the frame under full lock.

#2 I need to raise my car 3/4" (sad face)

#3 I need to add another -1.0 degree of camber (total of -1.5)

I'll keep y'all posted.

[cwylie]

Notfernuthin but.....


I'm at a loss as to why someone wouldn't think this would have an impact.

When I ordered my kit I dont think it was listed on the website. I sure as hell dont remember it. If I would have seen it I would have ordered more backspace in my wheels.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

CW - I'm using C6 Z06 brakes from kore 3. they use a machined hub similar to the wilwood pictured above.

The fender bolts are not an issue with me. I get it, i can take them out or put a button head in there. That's not what worries me. I'm also not worried about rolling the inner part of the fender if necessary. What is disconcerting is seeing how the fender lays over the tire when the wheel is turned. The fender sits on the tire.

Seriously, you guys are helping me and I'm sure others out by going through this exercise with us. If you have more pictures or you have a car in the shop you can make a short video of the car maneuvering it will help my confidence tremendously. There is nothing worse than putting tons of time and money into something and then hitting a wall like this.

#1 i may need somewhere between 1/8" to 3/16" less BS (effectively pushing the tire farther out...) Will double check the measurements. I'm basing this on the fact that I do a little more than "graze the frame under full lock.

#2 I need to raise my car 3/4" (sad face)

#3 I need to add another -1.0 degree of camber (total of -1.5)

I'll keep y'all posted.

I would wait to get the car running and aligned before you go and make drastic changes. If you are into the frame at full lock that might be ok. I'd like to see what the contact is like at a u turn steering wheel positions which is a lot less degrees than going to full lock. It's easier to do frame modifications than fender and body changes.

[cwylie]

GLR- I just emailed Tobin and he states his kit actually removes width VS the stock setup. He states -.240 per side. Between that and your backspacing you should have plenty of outer fender clearance but it explains your swaybar issues.

[Rod P]

Seriously, you guys are helping me and I'm sure others out by going through this exercise with us.

No problem, I'm a bit of a freak, (ask Vince) I get excited when I talk about suspension, most peoples eyes glaze, but not me, I don't throw numbers and Blah Blah around, I'm not that smart, I look at control arms, spindles, braces/brackets, angles, arcs, designs, and try to figure out how and why they arrived at that solution and how do i make it better or augment that solution, build that, test that, fix that


If you have more pictures or you have a car in the shop you can make a short video of the car maneuvering it will help my confidence tremendously. There is nothing worse than putting tons of time and money into something and then hitting a wall like this.


I'm in California for a little bit with 3 events, packing, working on my car, 48 hour car, and add a little (if I can sneak out in the middle of all this) help to my friend David P. on his crazy ......build but I will either at one of the events or when I get back to Indiana get some prof of life video of the kit on a 69 turning and racing

[glr0212]

GLR- I just emailed Tobin and he states his kit actually removes width VS the stock setup. He states -.240 per side. Between that and your backspacing you should have plenty of outer fender clearance but it explains your swaybar issues.

That doesn't quite make sense given what I am experiencing on the fender side.

Its been a long time but I could have sworn when I bought the brakes that it was .25" wider per side, hence the reason I went with 6.25 BS. (That and Frank at prodigy telling me i needed 6.5")

I can always take out some BS with a spacer if that is the case. sounds like a re-hoop is eventually in my future either way.

[cwylie]

Have you measured the actual backspace and width on your wheels?

[jlwdvm]

I have 18x10 with 6 inch back spacing bfg kdw 275 35 18 tires wilwood brakes speedteck control arms and fits perfect with minor modification to the inner fender. I did lose some turning radius had to weld a washer to the steering arms so it touches the control arms so the tire wont rub on the frame. I also tried it on two friends cars 69 e 67 fits on both with out any fender mods only losing minor turning radius tire brand does make a difference I have two sets of rims same back spacing one with bfg kdw they are rounded at the edges fits perfect others are toyo 888 did not fit well I made then fit but required a lot more fender modification.

How extensive were the fender mods to get the R888's to work? Looking for some pointers. I also hope to get some V40's ordered soon too, so I need to get an idea of what back spacing will work best with my tires and Wilwood rotors. I'm not against notching the sub frame to maintain turning radius. Thanks!

[cwylie]

What size Wilwood brakes are you running?

[Rod P]

That doesn't quite make sense given what I am experiencing on the fender side.

Its been a long time but I could have sworn when I bought the brakes that it was .25" wider per side, hence the reason I went with 6.25 BS. (That and Frank at prodigy telling me i needed 6.5")

I can always take out some BS with a spacer if that is the case. sounds like a re-hoop is eventually in my future either way.


Have you measured the actual backspace and width on your wheels?

Agreed! measure!! don't assume, I know Vince at meanstreets custom ordered a pair of Forgelines and they wouldn't fit...so he measured and found they sent the wrong offset, not saying that's the problem.....but here again....PLEASE measure your own gear folks NEW or NOT. its just a tape measure(not a special tool), it makes you smarter knowing the truth about your gear,

[jlwdvm]

What size Wilwood brakes are you running?

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront.aspx?itemno=140-12271

The rotors have a +0.38" offset.

[jlwdvm]

I re-read the complete thread again and am trying to figure out how switching between a 9 and 10" wheel alters how the wheel and tire combo fits in the wheel well, with the the 275 tire size and back spacing remaining the same. The V40's I want to use max out at 9.5" wide, and I'm thinking with my Wilwoods at +0.38" I will need to use 6" backspacing. Thoughts?

[Rod P]

I re-read the complete thread again and am trying to figure out how switching between a 9 and 10" wheel alters how the wheel and tire combo fits in the wheel well, with the the 275 tire size and back spacing remaining the same. The V40's I want to use max out at 9.5" wide, and I'm thinking with my Wilwoods at +0.38" I will need to use 6" backspacing. Thoughts?

that would be pretty safe and if you need to move the rim outward you can use stock car steel wheel spacers (http://www.stockcarproducts.com/content/rpm44125mp-rpm-racing-products-steel-wheel-spacers-multi-pattern-18-thick)as needed (I use them also).....but you could measure the distance and compare to the numbers on this thread to be sure

[jlwdvm]

now to the frame....

first I removed the shock, and lifted the arms to ride height
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure10_zpsc59ebd6c.jpg

bolted angle stock to the hub with lug nuts
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure12_zpsc530ded0.jpg

bolted flat stock between the arm and frame
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/try a turn a AAT/armmeasure13_zpsa917ba81.jpg

simple measurement between the two(2)
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure16_zps81ab7b55.jpg

here it is from frame tower to rim mounting surface 15 1/8 inches
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/tru-turn%20fit/armmeasure15_zpsb97dba1b.jpg

I will do the other side without the hub and give a base dimension on the spindle face!
I measured mine with Wilwoods and came up with 15 3/16".

[Damn True]

Difference in static camber.

[marolf101x]

True is correct. . .the display has no shims in the upper control arm.
If it had an alignment set it would have between -0.5 to -1.5 degrees camber, which would pull the top inward, making the shown dimension shorter.

[jlwdvm]

I measured mine exactly as pictured at Ride Tech. So my brake rotor wheel mounting surface must be thicker...causing Wilwoods to need a little more back spacing than recommended?

[Damn True]

I measured mine exactly as pictured at Ride Tech. So my brake rotor wheel mounting surface must be thicker...causing Wilwoods to need a little more back spacing than recommended?

Both.

Wilwood hats are thicker than Baer and certainly there is a difference in the alignment shim stack (given that RT's demo stub has none)......add to that the fact that old cars are rarely if ever exactly the same even if of the same model year and plant. Lots of ways to account for 1/8" difference.....even more reasons to measure everything, thrice, before ordering interdependent parts.

[jlwdvm]

I have no alignment shims either. I think Rod measured what he did so that people would have a base line to compare different rotor and hubs too. Ride Tech suggests 5.75 back space for cars with the 15 1/8 measurement. Since I have more, I'll need a little more back spacing.

[Rod P]

I have no alignment shims either. I think Rod measured what he did so that people would have a base line to compare different rotor and hubs too. Ride Tech suggests 5.75 back space for cars with the 15 1/8 measurement. Since I have more, I'll need a little more back spacing.

the 5.750 backspace isn't a super tight fit so an 1/8 inch here or there wont cause the wheel to rub, the 5.750 set up has about 1inch of fender clearance, if it was .250 (1/4) or .500 (1/2) then you need to adjust backspace:thumbsup:

[jlwdvm]

SO even though Wilwood mentions that the rotors are +0.38", they aren't all that more wide than the Baers (which are considered baseline for this discussion)?

[Rod P]

SO even though Wilwood mentions that the rotors are +0.38", they aren't all that more wide than the Baers (which are considered baseline for this discussion)?

dude that's 3 times more than the 1/8 that someone measured earlier?

0.38" is alot, just because you wrote it short doesn't make it short that's .380 thousands that's almost 1/2 and inch...actually closer to 3/8

if its 0.380 you need to adjust for that, so a 6.00 inch backspace would be better


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx162/crazyshopmonkey/helps%20shots/ruler-88-000yy_zpsf8ac4ed9.jpg

[jlwdvm]

38/100 is the same as 380/1000. My point was that even though I am using Wilwoods that are supposed to add 0.38" to track width, but they are only 1/8" wider than the Baers that Ride Tech used. Baers must not be 0 according to our measurements. The measurements you gave off of the frame gave everybody a baseline (as long as there car is measured with no shims, at ride height, etc).

[glr0212]

I am at 15.5+ I measured from the base of the control arm mount rather than the control arm cross bar. so that is worth at least another 1/4" or 0.250"

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/20140228_144729.jpg

We measured from here

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/20140228_144656.jpg

[glr0212]

After measuring - my back of the napkin calculations tell me I am not that far off from ride tech’s specs on BS. Maybe an 1/8” – 3/8” at most. The only thing I’m missing is a degree of negative camber and ¾” of ride height. I’ll be back on when I get those two issues addressed.

For future reference – the guy in the thread below is having similar issues.

Any more guys out there with 69’s on the road with the ride tech setup?


This guy is making a stock frame with tru turn, headers, an LS, and 265 tires work:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/93691-1969-Camaro-Build-in-PA/page2

Check out post #26.

[Shmoov69]

I got mine finally running again and have the RT uppers, spindle and TT setup with hochkiss drop coils and stock lowers. But, I have not drove it and I have MASSIVE front tires and wheels...... 17x7 & 235/45/17's!! LoL!
Well, maybe not so massive! :headspin:
Hopefully I can get mine on the road in the next week or two.

[jlwdvm]

Trying to figure out what type of mods Ride Tech did to the 48-hour and Good Guys camaros. this is all I have found so far:
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=38523&page=8 Check out post #78. It gives a peek at what was done with the inner fender.

[glr0212]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/dsc_0018.jpg

[jlwdvm]

Looks like they cut out a big section of the inner fender and bent the edge to make it rigid again? Probably rolled the outer fender lip too?

[marolf101x]

You cannot use the Goodguys car as a reference. Every panel has been changed. Nothing is in the stock location.

[jlwdvm]

Yeh, I've heard that before, but there is nothing else out there for guys with a 69. I have looked at what Rodney has done with his...just looking for more reference to get ideas. Right now my main concern is the sway bar end link (where it bolts to the bar at the subframe). According to my wheel rite tool this is going to be an area of concern. But maybe my tool is wrong....it is a flimsy piece of plastic that is going back to Jegs after all! I'm starting to think I just need to order 18x9.5's with 6" back spacing to get my 275 R888's mounted and start pounding:idea:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Yeh, I've heard that before, but there is nothing else out there for guys with a 69. I have looked at what Rodney has done with his...just looking for more reference to get ideas. Right now my main concern is the sway bar end link (where it bolts to the bar at the subframe). According to my wheel rite tool this is going to be an area of concern. But maybe my tool is wrong....it is a flimsy piece of plastic that is going back to Jegs after all! I'm starting to think I just need to order 18x9.5's with 6" back spacing to get my 275 R888's mounted and start pounding:idea:

If you are having a problem in that area what we do is weld in a piece of 3/16" steel plate which is drilled and tapped to accept the sway bar bushing brackets.

This will allow you to move the sway bar mounting back a 1/2" or more. Some frames you can back even farther. You can modify the spring opening flange.This will give you the room you need.

[jlwdvm]

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that would work for the design of the muscle bar since it is the bolt-on end link that is where the interference comes from. Maybe I'm looking into this too much or missing something.:hairpullout:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that would work for the design of the muscle bar since it is the bolt-on end link that is where the interference comes from. Maybe I'm looking into this too much or missing something.:hairpullout:

Oh you went for the full monte. Yeah your fct. Those do get in the way. Everyone running them with good back space has that issue. Be much better if they were splined.

[glr0212]

If you are having a problem in that area what we do is weld in a piece of 3/16" steel plate which is drilled and tapped to accept the sway bar bushing brackets.

This will allow you to move the sway bar mounting back a 1/2" or more. Some frames you can back even farther. You can modify the spring opening flange.This will give you the room you need.

Interesting. So it is not uncommon to have tire interference with the sway bar? or is that a thing with only the r888?

[jlwdvm]

I guess I could grind down the affected area of the sway bar arm (the front where it bolts the to bar) and then weld the ends onto the bars (if the bar ends are steel). It seems to me that designing the muscle bar so that the area where the ends bolt to the bar was located under the sub frame instead of past it into the wheel-tire area might allow for more tire clearance...but I am far from a engineer! http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii533/jlwdvm/IMG_20140302_115807395_HDR_zps9e6adbd1.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/jlwdvm/media/IMG_20140302_115807395_HDR_zps9e6adbd1.jpg.html)

[cwylie]

So I got the engine in this week and as you can see Im going to need a lot more camber. I currently have about a .25 inch of spacers on all 4 bolts. I dont think I could fit much more than a half inch without running out of stud. Generally how much spacer is needed to get to the 1.5 degrees of camber or so? Do you ever have to run longer studs? Anyone have a part number for some longer studs?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwIP6ZA5T8qdbEpBM0N0R215ZVk/edit?usp=sharing

[Vince@Meanstreets]

So I got the engine in this week and as you can see Im going to need a lot more camber. I currently have about a .25 inch of spacers on all 4 bolts. I dont think I could fit much more than a half inch without running out of stud. Generally how much spacer is needed to get to the 1.5 degrees of camber or so? Do you ever have to run longer studs? Anyone have a part number for some longer studs?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwIP6ZA5T8qdbEpBM0N0R215ZVk/edit?usp=sharing

i just run longer grade 8 bolts.

what control arms do you have again?

[cwylie]

Ridetech for everything everything on the front. Looking at them again I think I have enough room for about a 1/2 inch more of spacers.

[jlwdvm]

Doesn't having to use over 1/2-1" of camber shims to get 1.5 degrees seem excessive?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

From what I have seen no, not with the RideTech arms, also depends on the car.

Cwylie, are you using an alignment machine or a smart tool angle finder?

[Shmoov69]

Ok, believe this crap..... I actually drove the car this evening!! Woot woot!!:gitrdun:

Now, I didn't have any rubbing that I could hear, however there was a tiny bit I rubber build up on the fender, but I can't tell if that was from before I got it aligned. I raised the car up a touch also. With it sitting on the level floor, there is about 1/4" clearance on the back side at the fender lip at full lock. I'm relatively sure it will rub at full lock while turning into a driveway or something like that. But in all honesty, at this point I'm not too worried about it because if the wheel is at full lock, I shouldn't be doing anything other than creeping around anyway. I had pulled the top bolts out of the fender about 20 years ago to alleviate rubbing, so I'm used to a LOW car that rubs occasionally.

Now, had I bought this system to fit "meats" up front, I'd be pissed! However, since I got dinky 7x17's up there, I'm ok with it. I will have to buy new shoes anyway if I wanted some fats up there.

If I could figure out how to resize pics on an iPhone, I would post up pics.

[jlwdvm]

You have 17x7's, but what is your back space? I have 15x7 with a 235 on a stock pontiac rally that doesn't rub on my 67 firebird.

[turbo corey]

i have a 285 19 on the front of my car . i have all the ridetech parts up front. my rims are a z06 offset . i build my cars so i can use the z06 offsets so when i have to buy wheels it is ez. the only thing that rubs is the muscle bar bracket but i modified it a little and now its all good.

[Shmoov69]

Honestly, I don't remember what the BS is on those wheels. I ordered them in I believe 97 or 98!! LoL! They weren't "released" yet from what ARE told me then.

Well, I drove it to work today and it does rub the inner fender well at highway speeds when I hit a dip or bump in the road. I'm assuming because the wheel actually travels straight up now instead of tilting when it compresses. Not sure about the actual fender cause I never turned hard.

But... I DROVE IT!!

[glr0212]

i have a 285 19 on the front of my car . i have all the ridetech parts up front. my rims are a z06 offset . i build my cars so i can use the z06 offsets so when i have to buy wheels it is ez. the only thing that rubs is the muscle bar bracket but i modified it a little and now its all good.

would love to see some pics of that setup at full lock with some measurements like ride height

[jlwdvm]

After much research, head scratching, and re-reading this thread 3-4 times I finally ordered V40 rims...18x9.5" with 6" back spacing for the front and 18x11 with 7" for the rear. Hopefully that gets me close at both ends of the car, but I guess I can always use a spacer if needed. That's why I erred on the side of having a little too much back spacing, rather than not enough.

[cwylie]

Here is a thread on LS1tech with a bunch of fitment info on the Tru turn and the new holley engine and trans mounts. Hopefully it will give others an idea of what oil pans, motor mounts and headers can and cant be used with the tru turn setup.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1707895-new-hooker-holley-1st-gen-parts-compatibility-ridetech-truturn.html

Question for Ridetech. What pitman and idler arms were used when you measured the bump steer? Stock my car came with two different length arms as did most 69's from what I can tell.

[paulk68]

Thank you very much for all the detail you put into these posts. I wonder how the mid sized headers would work instead? Do you think they would still be in the way?

[Blake Foster]

IT APPEARS that the Speedtech Ls headers will fit with no issues. I am just checking today if the ATS oil pan and our new frame stands for the engine mounts will work also.

[cwylie]

Are the speedtech headers being produced again? I think the mid length headers would fit without a problem from what I have seen. Todd from holley may be able to confirm.

[paulk68]

IT APPEARS that the Speedtech Ls headers will fit with no issues. I am just checking today if the ATS oil pan and our new frame stands for the engine mounts will work also.

Very intersted in hearing your results, is that on a stock subframe our your subframe?

[Regal454]

Thank you very much for all the detail you put into these posts. I wonder how the mid sized headers would work instead? Do you think they would still be in the way?

The new Hooker 2473-HKR headers will clear the Ridetech Tru Turn. Take a look at this thread:

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/105338-Hooker-Headers-2473-HKR-Install

[Rod P]

After much research, head scratching, and re-reading this thread 3-4 times I finally ordered V40 rims...18x9.5" with 6" back spacing for the front and 18x11 with 7" for the rear. Hopefully that gets me close at both ends of the car, but I guess I can always use a spacer if needed. That's why I erred on the side of having a little too much back spacing, rather than not enough.


18x9.5" with 6", excellent! and having a spacer or many spacers is a good tuning tool also, I use 2 spacers (0.095 in.each) 2 each side of my 9.5 rims with 5.5 back spacing to adjust turn-in (i think its called scrub radius) I dont really know, I do know on my camaro if I want a tighter turn in on certain tracks I remove both spacers and the car turns in faster like a beast almost twitchy...but faster longer tracks I add spacers as needed to slow down the turn in, for me...its a quick and dirty way to adjust so steering without changing toe-in or camber

[glr0212]

Got any pics or videos of those real world 69's with the tru turn?

[Blake Foster]

Very intersted in hearing your results, is that on a stock subframe our your subframe?

That is on a stock Sub frame. looking at the pictures the headers are nowhere even close to where the steering would be. the only question I need to answer is if the ATS oil pan will clear the truturn components and I will know that in the next couple days

[jlwdvm]

Hopefully my wheels will be here soon so I can get them mounted up to see what mods will be needed to get them to fit. I'm also waiting on Speed Tech to see how there parts work with the Tru Turn before I order anything. My 570 horse LS3 should be here from Texas Speed tomorrow and I am talking with Bowler Transnmissions about getting an order together for a T56 and everything else needed to get it installed. It is amazing how quickly you can spend money on these things!

[paulk68]

That is on a stock Sub frame. looking at the pictures the headers are nowhere even close to where the steering would be. the only question I need to answer is if the ATS oil pan will clear the truturn components and I will know that in the next couple days

Thank you very much I can not wait to see what you find cuz I would like to order my setup soon

[glr0212]

I re-read the complete thread again and am trying to figure out how switching between a 9 and 10" wheel alters how the wheel and tire combo fits in the wheel well, with the the 275 tire size and back spacing remaining the same. The V40's I want to use max out at 9.5" wide, and I'm thinking with my Wilwoods at +0.38" I will need to use 6" backspacing. Thoughts?

You are a brave soul. I'm still waiting on the visual evidence on a real life running driving 69 camaro.

[cwylie]

You are a brave soul. I'm still waiting on the visual evidence on a real life running driving 69 camaro.

Have you measured your backspace yet just to verify it is what you think it is?

[jlwdvm]

See last post: http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/100875-Project-Grip-69-Camaro

[glr0212]

I did measure. Im around 6.125-6.25 BS

Sweet thread by mr david on the other site. I posted up.some detail questions. Hopefully he will respond with some more info we can add to this thread.

His car sits low, I'm surprised it works.

[Stovebolter]

Hello. Thought I should mention that I failed to mention the pictures I have provided thus far was not at ride height with the exception of the picture looking from the rear of he car toward the front. But you can't see much of the front in that picture. Sorry guys. In most of the pictures the air coils were deflated completely.

David

[jlwdvm]

Time to come up with a plan for the fender lip! See post #56:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/102040-1969-Firebird-TA-clone-track-car-build/page3?p=1061576#post1061576

[jlwdvm]

I set the car at a ride height of 23 7/8" and turned the tires lock-to-lock in both directions and the results are: Full right turn- driver's side has 1/4" clearance from the bottom of the fender to the tire and passenger has 1/8" clearance. On a full left turn the driver's side has just over 0" clearance and barely touches the sub frame. Passenger side has 1/4" clearance.

Fender clearance becomes an issue on compression of the outside suspension on a hard turn. The fender (at least mine) will need to be massaged to gain clearance so the tire doesn't rub when the car rolls over during the turn. The inner fender will need some work so that the top of the tire doesn't hit on compression as well.

All in all, I think things turned out better than I expected. I am using a 275 Toyo R888 with a 18x9.5 rim with 6" back space. Camber was set at 1.7ish negative.

My car is still in primer with original front fenders that have inner lips that have been bent a little somewhere along the way. I tentatively plan on cutting out a section of the fender lip and welding in a new one that angles almost straight up to gain clearance on hard turns. That plan could change!

[mfain]

Don't know if this will help you, but it is a technique I use to verify clearance on not only the wheel lip, but also things like inside fender panels, brake lines, the control arms and tie rod. I build a tire/wheel profile out of plywood and bolt it to the front and back of a plywood disk that replicates the tire diameter. Then I remove the springs and run the suspension through its entire travel, rotating the wheel to check clearance on various components. The technique has proven especially valuable with very high travel suspensions. Unfortunately, the solution to issues usually involves a chainsaw. LOL

Pappy

47486

[glr0212]

I set the car at a ride height of 23 7/8" and turned the tires lock-to-lock in both directions and the results are: Full right turn- driver's side has 1/4" clearance from the bottom of the fender to the tire and passenger has 1/8" clearance. On a full left turn the driver's side has just over 0" clearance and barely touches the sub frame. Passenger side has 1/4" clearance.

Fender clearance becomes an issue on compression of the outside suspension on a hard turn. The fender (at least mine) will need to be massaged to gain clearance so the tire doesn't rub when the car rolls over during the turn. The inner fender will need some work so that the top of the tire doesn't hit on compression as well.

All in all, I think things turned out better than I expected. I am using a 275 Toyo R888 with a 18x9.5 rim with 6" back space. Camber was set at 1.7ish negative.

My car is still in primer with original front fenders that have inner lips that have been bent a little somewhere along the way. I tentatively plan on cutting out a section of the fender lip and welding in a new one that angles almost straight up to gain clearance on hard turns. That plan could change!


Any Updates? Any idea where your alignment sits? How many shims do you have? That would help me. I've stuffed another 3/8 worth of shims in the cross member but I cant put the car on the ground until I get my rear end back from the shop.

[CamaroMike]

Anyone get 305's under the front yet? If mine was painted already I would pull the fenders. I want to run a square setup.

[bret]

Anyone get 305's under the front yet? If mine was painted already I would pull the fenders. I want to run a square setup.

Fender flares are in your future. Keep in mind this will require you to start over in tuning spring rates, shock valving and swaybar rates because the centerline of the wheel/tire will be moved outboard by about 5/8"...along with the extra potential grip from the wider tire. Will it look cool? Probably. Will it be faster? Maybe. Eventually.

[CamaroMike]

Fender flares are in your future. Keep in mind this will require you to start over in tuning spring rates, shock valving and swaybar rates because the centerline of the wheel/tire will be moved outboard by about 5/8"...along with the extra potential grip from the wider tire. Will it look cool? Probably. Will it be faster? Maybe. Eventually.

The good news is im still on 100% stock suspension so I can go any route with that. I am fairly certain the amount of work compared to how much lap time it will scrub is not worth it at all but I think it will look pretty good. Thanks for the input Bret, nice to see the big guys active on here!

[Blake Foster]

Don't know if this will help you, but it is a technique I use to verify clearance on not only the wheel lip, but also things like inside fender panels, brake lines, the control arms and tie rod. I build a tire/wheel profile out of plywood and bolt it to the front and back of a plywood disk that replicates the tire diameter. Then I remove the springs and run the suspension through its entire travel, rotating the wheel to check clearance on various components. The technique has proven especially valuable with very high travel suspensions. Unfortunately, the solution to issues usually involves a chainsaw. LOL

Pappy

47486

Flintstones............... meet the Flintstones. Well THAT will never work...... it's WAY too Simple!

[glr0212]

Can anybody give me an idea how many shims I need to hit -1.5 camber and 6 caster?

I know every car is different but id like to get some idea what it looks like

[Damn True]

Can anybody give me an idea how many shims I need to hit -1.5 camber and 6 caster?

I know every car is different but id like to get some idea what it looks like

With the degree of variation from plant to plant and even within plants in the same model year there is no way to give you this estimate with any degree of reliability. Throw enough shims in there to clear the tire so it'll roll and take it to an alignment shop.

[Rod P]

Can anybody give me an idea how many shims I need to hit -1.5 camber and 6 caster?

I know every car is different but id like to get some idea what it looks like

there's no set amount...due to factory tolerances back then, and after 40+ years everything is askew, on that note I put 2 1/8 shims on each bolt to start on my installs, hope that helps as a starter

[bret]

With the degree of variation from plant to plant and even within plants in the same model year there is no way to give you this estimate with any degree of reliability. Throw enough shims in there to clear the tire so it'll roll and take it to an alignment shop.

...or buy some basic alignment tools and align it yourself. It's not that hard. http://www.ridetech.com/store/quicktrick-alignment-quickslide-w-case-17-22-wheel.html

[Bad94]

Can anybody give me an idea how many shims I need to hit -1.5 camber and 6 caster?

I know every car is different but id like to get some idea what it looks like


Put 1/4" in the front and 1/2" in the rear and see how that looks, then do alignment.

[jlwdvm]

I have an LS3 with a Corvette accessory drive system on it. It looks like I will be limited to about 3/4" of shims on the front of the A-arm on the drivers side before it starts to hit the PS pulley. Any chance I will need this many shims to get 1.5-2 degrees of negative castor?

[bret]

I have an LS3 with a Corvette accessory drive system on it. It looks like I will be limited to about 3/4" of shims on the front of the A-arm on the drivers side before it starts to hit the PS pulley. Any chance I will need this many shims to get 1.5-2 degrees of negative castor?

Depending on the tolerances and condition of your subframe you should be able to get a bunch more caster with that many shims.

[jlwdvm]

Oops...I meant camber.

[Bad94]

I have an LS3 with a Corvette accessory drive system on it. It looks like I will be limited to about 3/4" of shims on the front of the A-arm on the drivers side before it starts to hit the PS pulley. Any chance I will need this many shims to get 1.5-2 degrees of negative castor?

What slugs you got in the upper arms?

[jlwdvm]

Center hole slugs.

[David Pozzi]

Place a two foot long carpenters level up against the tire. the part of the tire that contacts the level will be around 20" apart. Using those points, the tire will have a gap at the top of around 1/2" at 1.5 degees neg camber.

[glr0212]

Place a two foot long carpenters level up against the tire. the part of the tire that contacts the level will be around 20" apart. Using those points, the tire will have a gap at the top of around 1/2" at 1.5 degees neg camber.

Thanks David. That's a great idea for a quick check. I was getting a little worried because my shims were stacking up over half an inch.

[Regal454]

Wow my head is spinning after reading through this whole thread again. I just measured my 69 Camaro last night and ended up ordering 18x9's with 6.125" backspacing. I found on my car that a 6" BS would be ideal but erred on the side of caution and went with another 1/8" of BS figuring I can run a shim. (Edit: I am running the std C6 corvette brakes with the Kore3 hubs which reduces the front track width .24" per side.). I plan on running my car at the same ride height as the Blue Ridetech Camaro mentioned earlier in this thread, 23 3/8" from ground to wheel molding. Even with that, the tire looks like it will get into the outer fender with anything greater than 2" of compression from ride height at full lock. (Edit: this was tested at -1 degree of camber)

It looks like I will have to weld washers on the lower control arms to limit the turning radius just a hair, but I don't fore see it affecting drivability that much. Otherwise the tires will lightly hit the frame and sway bar.

Has anyone with a 69 Camaro and the Ridetech Truturn have any real world feedback on their tire/wheel combination?

[garymac69]

I have been running the Ridetech TruTurn on my '69 for 1 1/2 years. I went with a 18"x9" wheel with 5 3/4" B.S. (275 mm tire) but wish I had gone with 6" for a little more clearance. I am at 23 3/16" from ground to lip of wheel opening. My alignment settings are -0.8 Camber and +5 1/2 Caster. I drilled & tapped the lower control arms and added a bolt to limit turning radius and prevent rubbing on the sway bar and frame. On occasion the tire rubs the top lip of the fender at full lock if also navigating over rough terrain (parking in a field). I just touch up the paint under there a couple times a year.

Gary

Wow my head is spinning after reading through this whole thread again. I just measured my 69 Camaro last night and ended up ordering 18x9's with 6.125" backspacing. I found on my car that a 6" BS would be ideal but erred on the side of caution and went with another 1/8" of BS figuring I can run a shim. (Edit: I am running the std C6 corvette brakes with the Kore3 hubs which reduces the front track width .24" per side.). I plan on running my car at the same ride height as the Blue Ridetech Camaro mentioned earlier in this thread, 23 3/8" from ground to wheel molding. Even with that, the tire looks like it will get into the outer fender with anything greater than 2" of compression from ride height at full lock. (Edit: this was tested at -1 degree of camber)

It looks like I will have to weld washers on the lower control arms to limit the turning radius just a hair, but I don't fore see it affecting drivability that much. Otherwise the tires will lightly hit the frame and sway bar.

Has anyone with a 69 Camaro and the Ridetech Truturn have any real world feedback on their tire/wheel combination?

[31069ss]

I have a 69 nova with 383 stroker , hooker super comp headers . I want to
Get the true then set up to guy a 275 under my car .... Is there going to be any issues due to my oil Pan or headers ? And if you get tru turn do you have to you the muscle bar sway bar or can i still use my dse sway bar

[Regal454]

I have a 69 nova with 383 stroker , hooker super comp headers . I want to
Get the true then set up to guy a 275 under my car .... Is there going to be any issues due to my oil Pan or headers ? And if you get tru turn do you have to you the muscle bar sway bar or can i still use my dse sway bar

What oil pan are you currently using?

The Ridetech front sway bar will probably add additional turning radius over the DSE bar.

[31069ss]

I have a hamburgers street / strip
7 quart

[31069ss]

You have to run the muscle bar as well ... I'm ordering the strong arms , tru turn and the spindles ....... If i don't have to
Spend any more money it would be great lol

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Tru turn will not work with a SBC and Hooker super comps. Your gonna need a swept back primary design.
We are doing a 71 and we fit a 18x 10 6.750 back space.

[31069ss]

Tru turn will not work with a SBC and Hooker super comps. Your gonna need a swept back primary design.
We are doing a 71 and we fit a 18x 10 6.750 back space.

So it will not work with a sbc or just the hooker headers ? What headers will work ?

[31069ss]

Tru turn will not work with a SBC and Hooker super comps. Your gonna need a swept back primary design.
We are doing a 71 and we fit a 18x 10 6.750 back space.

Do you have a build link for that car ?

[Bad94]

Champ Road race 8 quart pan and Dynatech 1 3/4-1 7/8 stepped headers is what im running on my 72 Nova with the Tru Turn.

[31069ss]

Champ Road race 8 quart pan and Dynatech 1 3/4-1 7/8 stepped headers is what im running on my 72 Nova with the Tru Turn.

What does the stepped headers do differently than the hooker supercomps . Also can you send me some pictures of your car to [email protected]

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Do you have a build link for that car ?

not yet, still in progress.


here are a few pictures.

[31069ss]

not yet, still in progress.


here are a few pictures.

What engine is in there ? Car looks amazing

[mdprovee]

Champ Road race 8 quart pan and Dynatech 1 3/4-1 7/8 stepped headers is what im running on my 72 Nova with the Tru Turn.


Same set up on my 67 Camaro.

[Rod P]

Perhaps you can come up with a list of LS swap parts (engine plates, oil pans, long tube headers, and transmission x member) that you believe will work with your Tru Turn system for a 1rst gen Fbody without modification? part numbers? Make it a sticky in this forum and others. Instead of all of us going over thread after thread trying to figure out what will work? It's like going back 15 years or so to the first LS swap into a 69 Camaro. Lol. I recommend your system for OEM drivetrain. Love mine. But not for a LS swap. No way. I feel others pain now that I'm planning a conversion. If I wanted to reinvent the wheel I would go out, invest in some chassis tuning books, re educate myself in everything from bump steer to etc and build my own front end. Maybe take a class under the direction of Ron Sutton. I'm sorry but this lack of information is __________(fill in the blank).

Im no longer at the shop(RideTech) but most...maybe all of the parts used on the 48 hour camaro LS swap are list here (http://www.ridetech.com/48hourcamaro/2011/06/48-hour-camaro-tech-sheet/) that may help.


I used real simple parts on my own car
TALL 1969 350 factory engine mounts
Prothane engine plate and mount kit #7-519
Moroso Pan #20140 and the correct pick up
Sanderson Headers #LS10

but I'm not in the LS swap business, I just a hot rodder, maybe we should ask someone that is in the LS swap business to do it, like Holley, BRPhotrods, Muscle rods or so on

[Leadfoot1]

..... Hey!!??

Is that it??

I just read all those papges for nothing??

I was searching for ideas on fitting some C6 ZR1 wheels on my 69 and tought about the Tru Turn for the front... This thread popped up and sounded like it needed to be read, so i did... But now, should i buy the kit or not??

I want to keep the original motor for the time beeing so it looks like it fits with that right?

Im wanting to run a 19x10 front w/ 285. And 19x12 w/345's.

Whats the best set up?

(I would not mind notching the frame at some point and doing fiberglass inner fenders.... I also have a set of glass fenders i kept from another project but that would be stretching it i think, my car is 100% original and stock... And squaky clean too!!!)

Lead

[glr0212]

A small block will work with the tru turn. Use dynatech muscle maxx headers. Great quality, thick flange and swept back to clear the linkage

as far as whether or not to buy the system.... If you really want a big tire to fit and the car to be 100% functional, get a new subframe. if you are willing to make some sacrifices, higher spring rate, losing turn radius, occasional fender rubs, then the system will probably work.

ultimately, i decided to rehoop my wheel and put a 245 tire on the front. if i had it to do over again, i would do something different than the tru turn.

[Shmoov69]

Call Marcus at SC&C and he will tell you everything you need to know and more for what you want. :thumbsup:

[David Pozzi]

GLR0212- You keep showing the same picture of our 69. The fact is that there IS clearance, even in that picture. Maybe it's not a great angle, but I watched over Rod as he did this. . .it is my job. And I assure you there is room to put your hand in there. . .not a ton of room, but room enough.

You must remember, this is an upgrade to allow you to wedge a 275 tire under an OE subframe. There's no doubt it's tight. Of course DSE is going to have more clearance. . .they had the ability to move the frame rails and other parts. We are still dealing with the stock locations.

First, we need to figure out how far out the brakes have moved the wheels (if at all).
Then we need to add -1.0 to -1.5 degrees negative camber (this is the BIGGEST part of making this work!) Those that want to put a 275 under the front are typically building a "track" car and need the negative camber anyway.
Finally you'll need to remove/replace the fender bolt and roll the fender lip.

I understand the 67/68 wheel opening is more round than the 69 and the 69 hangs down over the tire more. However, the 69 fender is pushed out further than the early cars.
From memory, I think a 69 has about 1/2" to 3/4" more room than a 67 or 68 Camaro. BUT a 69 fender lip is lower because it isn't round. Generally, it seems 69 owners have an easier time fitting tires than 67/68 owners do.

[glr0212]

Stove,

Sorry you are having issues. I 100% agree, the system is not streetable with 275 or even 265 tires. I actually sold my entire setup and bought a dse subframe. The 6.25 backspace will work with their subframe. no need to rehoop or buy new tires.

I appreciate the effort ridetech put into this thread, but I will reiterate my warning to others. Don't buy this system and expect to maintain driveability. You will lose turning radius and you will have rubbing. It just doesn't work without major surgery. If nothing else, call a reputable builder who has done this and find out what is actually involved with making this work and what compromises have to be made (turning radius). You will figure out pretty quickly that you are better off buying a speedtech, AME, or DSE subframe. Price will end up being about the same and you will get full functionality.

This setup is a compromise setup at best. I could not recommend it as a realistic way to put 275s on a car.

[bret]

Stove,

Sorry you are having issues. I 100% agree, the system is not streetable with 275 or even 265 tires. I actually sold my entire setup and bought a dse subframe. The 6.25 backspace will work with their subframe. no need to rehoop or buy new tires.

I appreciate the effort ridetech put into this thread, but I will reiterate my warning to others. Don't buy this system and expect to maintain driveability. You will lose turning radius and you will have rubbing. It just doesn't work without major surgery. If nothing else, call a reputable builder who has done this and find out what is actually involved with making this work and what compromises have to be made (turning radius). You will figure out pretty quickly that you are better off buying a speedtech, AME, or DSE subframe. Price will end up being about the same and you will get full functionality.

This setup is a compromise setup at best. I could not recommend it as a realistic way to put 275s on a car.

You are absolutely and completely correct. The True Turn system will not work on an early Camaro with a 6.25 backspace wheel.
Unless you use a 1/2" wheel spacer, or have a brake system that adds 1/2" per side to the track width...or downsize your wheel/tire package to an 18x8.5 w a 245 tire.
A 6.25" bs wheel WILL resolve any remaining outer fender clearance issues though because , as stated, you won't be able to turn the wheels (much).
As a reference (again), every piece of literature we have ever created indicates a 5.75 backspace wheel to be appropriate.
Thankfully 1723 (and counting) Tru Turn customers have selected the correct backspace wheel. They do not make a lot of noise here because they are busy driving their hotrods.

[bret]

Since wheel/tire fitment is a huge deal...and somewhat misunderstood...and requires some real work to get right, I have listed SOME of the items that affect your outcome:

1. Tire size
2. Tire brand (yes, dimensions vary by manufacturer)
3. Tire age (have you already worn some shoulder off of them?)
4. Wheel width
5. Wheel backspace
6. Spindle selection
7. Brake selection
8. Control arm configuration
9. Alignment settings
10. Ride height
11. Height of body bushings
12. Fender alignment and/or previous damage
13. Dimensional tolerance of reproduction fenders
14. Steering box ratio (how far will your box swing the steering linkage
15. Spring rate/swaybar rste/shock settings (determines how much roll your car may have)
16. Ability of customer to tolerate "a little rub here and there"

i could go on.

This is why fitting the absolute largest tire possible on your car is an exponential amount of work...on everyones part.

[glr0212]

You are absolutely and completely correct. The True Turn system will not work on an early Camaro with a 6.25 backspace wheel.
Unless you use a 1/2" wheel spacer, or have a brake system that adds 1/2" per side to the track width...or downsize your wheel/tire package to an 18x8.5 w a 245 tire.
A 6.25" bs wheel WILL resolve any remaining outer fender clearance issues though because , as stated, you won't be able to turn the wheels (much).
As a reference (again), every piece of literature we have ever created indicates a 5.75 backspace wheel to be appropriate.
Thankfully 1723 (and counting) Tru Turn customers have selected the correct backspace wheel. They do not make a lot of noise here because they are busy driving their hotrods.

Please tell me how I am supposed to push the tire out another 1/2", Brett? Physically, 5.75" back space won't work on my car. It appears Stove is having rubbing and turn radius issues as well. I think people need to realize that there are limitations and compromises with this setup. For what I spent on this car, the last thing i want to hear is rubbing and grinding of tires as I make a 4 point U-turn. Maybe others are willing to live with that.

I know you are probably frustrated with me for starting this thread, but ultimately I was looking for help and trying to give others some real world feed back on how the setup was working for me. You keep saying that every car is different, and I appreciate that but in reality there are only so many variables. one of the most important is track width. You should be able to tell us what track width your 5.75" BS is based on(58" ? 59? 60? ). Once we know that, intelligent people can then add/subtract the hub dimensions and order their wheels accordingly. Another variable that would be helpful is suggested ride height (using baseline 275/XX tire).

Finally, I am not the only one having issues here. If this setup is only for people that race and autocross, fine. Bad on me for expecting it to work on a driver without what I consider to be significant compromises. In the interest of helping others - Maybe some of the other 1721 customers would be willing to come on here and tell us how they drive their car (driver/autocross/road race), how the setup is working for them in the real world, and what if any modifications they had to make to get everything working to their satisfaction.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/20140202_154148.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17236298/car/reduced/turn%20view%202.jpg

final final note - I'll admit that I am not perfect. I could have spent more time dialing in alignment or rolled and cut my inner fender, and even though the system didn't work for me and it cost me money and frustration I do appreciate the efforts Ridetech made earlier in the thread to help resolve my issues. Despite the occasional condescending tone towards me, I don't think that Ridetech is a bad company to deal with or makes a bad product. It just didn't work for me and others should consider more than the marketing hype before investing $4,000 into this setup. There will be compromises and its not a plug and play system, and to their credit, Ridetech never said it was.

[SSLance]

I remember not that long ago I was watching a video of Mark Stielow thrashing Hellfire around a road course and you know what I heard...a tire rub a fender on certain bumps... Several times in fact. I guess it happens to the best of us.

I didn't laugh or look down at him when I heard that, I nodded approvingly... :) Because I knew he was trying to get everything he could out of the setup and was apparently willing to deal with a rub here or there as a compromise.

IMO, if you are the type of owner or driver that doesn't want to deal with that, put a smaller tire on the car. Or...spend a WHOLE bunch more money on an aftermarket sub frame that will let you run that tire without it rubbing...maybe.

[glr0212]

Rubbing while busting nuts around the race track is different than rubbing while pulling up a drive way into a gas station or burger joint. Mark doesn't seem like a compromise sort of guy, what suspension is he using on the front of his car?

If the tru-turn is for race cars that you trailer to the autocross, so be it. My expectation was that it was going to be 95% usable. For what it costs to buy a full ridetech suspension/steering box/ and then to roll the fenders and cut up the inners - you aren't too far away from what it costs for a full subframe designed for 275 tires.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

What did you end up with Camber #'s on your alignment?

[glr0212]

I started here

Camber -0.48

Caster +3.77

Toe in 0.03"

Then I took some measurements and added shims to get another degree of camber. 1 degree of camber is equal to roughly 0.5" of tire movement at the top. The other issue i had when trying to figure this out was turning radius. Turning radius can be determined by wheel base/tan X, where X equals the max angle the tire can turn from centerline. So a stock chevy camaro can turn roughly 29 degrees which equates a radius of 18.7' or 37.4 feet curb to curb.

With the tru turn i estimated i was going to be somewhere between 22- 24 degrees best case scenario, which is 44 feet curb to curb. Maybe I could live with that if i felt comfortable the tire wasn't going to live on the fender lip.

[Smittys67]

FB_IMG_1459385872408.jpg

I guess they fit. Just for the record...all GM metal. Is it a tight fit... sure. The 1969 Camaro is much harder to fit the 275s if you want to run the car low. We used an 18x9.5 wheel with a 5.75 bs. We rounded the corner of the sway bar end to eliminate the rub. Still way cheaper then a Sub Frame.

Ridetech front suspension complete $3150. Uses parts to fit a Camaro headers, brakes steering connection and ect.

Aftermarket Sub Frame $7500 plus headers, engine mounts, brakes ect now we are north of $10000.

[jlwdvm]

What (if anything) did you have to do to the inner fender lip on the 69 to get the 275s to fit? I have the same set up on my 69 firebird, but have 6" backspacing. I am waiting to a spanner wrench from Josh so I can get the front of my car out of the weeds. I would say that my car is currently nearly 2" lower in the front than the 69 pictured. I moved it from 1 garage stall to another last night and the tires rub when I get near full lock, but I think most of that will be taken care of when the front is raised up to ride height and camber is set to around 2 degrees (the car will see a lot of track time).
FB_IMG_1459385872408.jpg

I guess they fit. Just for the record...all GM metal. Is it a tight fit... sure. The 1969 Camaro is much harder to fit the 275s if you want to run the car low. We used an 18x9.5 wheel with a 5.75 bs. We rounded the corner of the sway bar end to eliminate the rub. Still way cheaper then a Sub Frame.

Ridetech front suspension complete $3150. Uses parts to fit a Camaro headers, brakes steering connection and ect.

Aftermarket Sub Frame $7500 plus headers, engine mounts, brakes ect now we are north of $10000.

[glr0212]

FB_IMG_1459385872408.jpg

I guess they fit. Just for the record...all GM metal. Is it a tight fit... sure. The 1969 Camaro is much harder to fit the 275s if you want to run the car low. We used an 18x9.5 wheel with a 5.75 bs. We rounded the corner of the sway bar end to eliminate the rub. Still way cheaper then a Sub Frame.

Ridetech front suspension complete $3150. Uses parts to fit a Camaro headers, brakes steering connection and ect.

Aftermarket Sub Frame $7500 plus headers, engine mounts, brakes ect now we are north of $10000.

Beautiful car. What is the ride height in the front?

[Smittys67]

I do not know the measurements for ride height. We did zero modifying on the sheet metal.

[glr0212]

When you say "I guess it fits" What do you mean?

[Smittys67]

When you say "I guess it fits" What do you mean?

That it works on a car that is street driven on a regular basis with no issues.

[jlwdvm]

My rim/tire might just kiss the muscle bar end at full lock. I might have to round off the front corner of the bar end for added piece of mind. The back of tire also just kisses the sub at full lock. I am running 6" BS, so that might contribute to that a little bit. There is a short section of each inner fender lip that might need some massaging, but I won't know for sure until I get my coil overs adjusted for ride height.

[randy]

where do you live? if you are in dallas i would be glad to look at it for you

[glr0212]

where do you live? if you are in dallas i would be glad to look at it for you

Thank you for the offer Randy, but I sold the subframe with the ridetech setup. I gave up on making it work and considered buying rehoops for the front wheels, but somebody bought the subframe so i went ahead and bought a DSE subframe. The DSE is workable with my existing backspacing.

[randy]

you will love it. I love mine

[HIFLYR]

OK
23 pages later and I am glad I have not ordered my ridetech system yet. Quick question about the set up for my 69 Firebird Conv. First I am not interested in autocross just want good handling on the road and adjustability in ride height. I am going LS 480 or 535 and automatic, while I want to run a larger front tire, I really do not care to have bragging rites for stuffing in the largest I can. Will this system work for fairly easy for a guy with my goals. I do not want to create a nightmare when buying parts etc.
Thanks

[jlwdvm]

I have 275's with a stock sub and 6" BS wheels and I have a fingers width between the tire and the fender on both sides at full lock. I also went through a lot of measuring to get my sub squared up in my 69 Firebird. Start at post #75.
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/102040-1969-Firebird-TA-clone-track-car-build/page4

[Tinker]

Just something to check into, but in the case of my '69 Firebird, the original steering linkage is different than the camaro. The original Pontiac centerlink contains the joints, not the idler or pitman arms. If this is the same on yours, you will need to also buy a camaro centerlink, pitman arm, and idler arm in addition to the tru-turn.

[jlwdvm]

Just something to check into, but in the case of my '69 Firebird, the original steering linkage is different than the camaro. The original Pontiac centerlink contains the joints, not the idler or pitman arms. If this is the same on yours, you will need to also buy a camaro centerlink, pitman arm, and idler arm in addition to the tru-turn.

If I remember right, there is no way the Firebird centerlink will work with the TruTurn center. I figured that out and went with the '69 Camaro link.

[Tinker]

yup, you figure that out in a hurry. I am not knocking the tru turn because its a simple conversion and it works very well. I was just informing a potential buyer that there will be a little extra cost. This should be no surprise to us Pontiac fans. lol A small price to pay for being a little different! :D

[glr0212]

yup, you figure that out in a hurry. I am not knocking the tru turn because its a simple conversion and it works very well. I was just informing a potential buyer that there will be a little extra cost. This should be no surprise to us Pontiac fans. lol A small price to pay for being a little different! :D

Did you ever get the tru-turn on with wheels and tires? I would agree the parts were nice and everything bolted up fine, but if you never really had it in with wheels and tires and drove the car, how do you know it works "very well?"

No offense intended by the way. Just curious about the full extent of your tru-turn experience.

[Tinker]

My saying it works very well was pertaining to the fact I had the kit installed on my car and everything was as advertised. The bump steer was within .03" and the outer tie rod cleared my rim(18" w/ 4.75" bs). I did not end up using it in the end because the centerlink bracket hit my oil pan and there was interference with one of the header primary tubes and the tie rod. These are all attributed to the Pontiac engine that is offset from chassis centerline by one inch. I didn't want to sound like I am bashing this product as in some previous posts. I also had a wildwood hub on the front and the added .38 hub offset caused my wheel to hit the back of the inner wheel well. This was the point I went to plan "z". lol

When I first read this thread I thought about chiming in and didn't. I wanted to state to other members that we should all be grateful for the countless aftermarket companies trying to fill our needs. Most of us here are trying to fit the biggest baddest parts into places never originally intended. It truly is amazing that one can buy a part that generally will fit within fractions of an inch into a car that is 40+ years old. I have owned my car for 27+ years now, and when I first owned it, you couldn't buy hardly anything.

Anyways, in a nutshell, with a Pontiac motor- no go. I hopes this helps someone.

[ra11eysport]

Amazingly enough if you want to run a 10in rim with 275's this system is not for you. Atleast, thats my experience with it anyway.

On my 67 i would of had to roll the fender, modify the inner fender just to make turn in it. And thats with a 9.5 275 wheel with 5.5bs.

With an after market subframe i can run a 9.5rim 6.8bs 275 wheel with and lock to lock with no rubbing, and no inner fender work. The oem frame is strong but it has its limitations with big tires. IMO, i think it was a mistake for Ridetech to make that claim. I waisted 1k on the system!

Im not bashing them just is what it is!

[glr0212]

When I first read this thread I thought about chiming in and didn't. I wanted to state to other members that we should all be grateful for the countless aftermarket companies trying to fill our needs. Most of us here are trying to fit the biggest baddest parts into places never originally intended. It truly is amazing that one can buy a part that generally will fit within fractions of an inch into a car that is 40+ years old. I have owned my car for 27+ years now, and when I first owned it, you couldn't buy hardly anything.

Anyways, in a nutshell, with a Pontiac motor- no go. I hopes this helps someone.

I appreciate the feedback. I'm sure others do as well. There is a lot of conjecture and bloviating that goes on with things like this by people who have no actual experience installing the system or driving the system. You have obviously installed it and its good to have some detailed feed back.

I did not try and bash ridetech. I only wanted to show people what was going on with my setup and see what others had done. I was hoping people who actually drove this system would give some feedback.

[glr0212]

With the detroit speed subframe -

Haven't driven it much or very hard yet but haven't noticed any rubbing yet.

https://i.imgur.com/o3wuW18.jpg

[jlwdvm]

I had to slightly modify my inner fender and roll the outer lip...slightly;)

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/102040-1969-Firebird-TA-clone-track-car-build/page12

[BigBronco]

Hate to bump this thing but what a roller coaster of a thread.

I have ATX Billet spindles, Speedtech Control arms and in the box is a set of C6 z06 brakes with Kore 3 brackets.

I ordered a Tru-Turn so when that arrives on Monday, I hope to install and start taking some measurements to get some wheels sized up. LS fest is only a few months away now. :catfight:

Hopefully this works out :bump:

[glr0212]

Good luck bronco. Be prepared to massage fenders or rehoop your wheels

[BigBronco]

Good luck bronco. Be prepared to massage fenders or rehoop your wheels

Thanks man. Have not ordered wheels yet and had been putting it off till the parts came in.

Now to get my Wife's firebird off the lift so I can get my car up and get it all measured.

[cwylie]

Thanks man. Have not ordered wheels yet and had been putting it off till the parts came in.

Now to get my Wife's firebird off the lift so I can get my car up and get it all measured.

BigBronco - You went to UT and had a 4th gen F-body right? I think you and I went to the track once like 15 years ago and used to play Halo on Xbox if I remember correctly.

[69Toronto]

Hoping someone can chime in on TruTurn in 2020
I have a stock subframe, global west upper and lowers
stock spindle, AGR ps box, QA1 coilovers, 18x8.5 rushforths and 245 40 18s on it

i bought the car with all adjustments maxed out to make the car as low as possible....it rides like crap, rubs when i crank the wheel in both directions.
control arms basically on the bump stops

switching things around now...my goal is to just get the car as low as possible where everything is performing correctly and be able to make a proper 3 point turn or a U turn like a normal person lol


i like to lowered stance but realize the car will have to go up

Im hoping to add some global west shorter subframe bushings
replace the 350lbs springs with something stiffer

I am thinking of adding drop spindles, but then read about the TRUTURN

Im not looking to run a 275 tire...I just want to get the lowered stance and be able to turn on a 245 tire


is truturn what i need here or can I just but some drop spindles and call it a day?

thank you...Bob

[camcojb]

Hoping someone can chime in on TruTurn in 2020
I have a stock subframe, global west upper and lowers
stock spindle, AGR ps box, QA1 coilovers, 18x8.5 rushforths and 245 40 18s on it

i bought the car with all adjustments maxed out to make the car as low as possible....it rides like crap, rubs when i crank the wheel in both directions.
control arms basically on the bump stops

switching things around now...my goal is to just get the car as low as possible where everything is performing correctly and be able to make a proper 3 point turn or a U turn like a normal person lol


i like to lowered stance but realize the car will have to go up

Im hoping to add some global west shorter subframe bushings
replace the 350lbs springs with something stiffer

I am thinking of adding drop spindles, but then read about the TRUTURN

Im not looking to run a 275 tire...I just want to get the lowered stance and be able to turn on a 245 tire


is truturn what i need here or can I just but some drop spindles and call it a day?

thank you...Bob
My buddy just put one on his 69 Nova, which is the same kit as the 67-69 Camaro. It's a big block car which can have fitment issues on it's own if the frame stands and mounts aren't correct. But in his case he could not get it to clear the headers (tried Hooker and custom Lemons headers). The shop called Ridetech and they told them headers wouldn't work with that system.

I know the install pics show headers but I believe it's an LS swap car. I would call and verify from Ridetech first if that will be an issue with what you're doing. Other than that the shop doing the work had installed these before on other cars (not first gens) and liked the system and had no fit issues.