Transmission decision dilemma

[ivanko]

I recently had my 3rd hardpart failure in my HHP Racing Stage VI 700R4 built by Syclone/Typhoon transmission guru Brian Hartman. This was the second planetary gear failure and Brian attributes the failure to the low quality GM "sinister" powdered metal material. Although I trust Brian and his ability to engineer a 700R4 to handle the huge stress the AWD and big torque our trucks place on the transmission, I have lost all confidence in the 700R4 regardless of build level or quality.

I know for sure I will not be installing the 700R4 again so my options are left to either install a 4l80E or possibly a T56 conversion. There is give and take for both of these scenarios. Brian Hartman tells me the 4L80E will be a pig in my truck and I will lose the nice 1-2 shift and the responsive hard shifts of the 700R4. I have been told the 4l80E is nearly indestructible though. The 6 speed is another option, but I will risk losing the characteristic "aircraft carrier" launch the Syclone is known for and I may break drive train parts if I launch hard with the manual.

My Syclone is an “all around” performer and I like to participate in autocross, track day events and occasionally drag racing. Of course I drive it on the street as well.

I was hoping to gain some feedback from those of you here who have first hand experience upgrading from a hard shifting 700R4 to the 4l80E.

Btw, I was referred by Marty Syborg Twin Turbo Sonoma GT.

Thank you.

Adam

[Speedster]

You may want to PM Steve. (streetfytr68) He has done a lot with quick shifting automatics with his paddle shifter.

[ivanko]

You may want to PM Steve. (streetfytr68) He has done a lot with quick shifting automatics with his paddle shifter.

Yeah I actually spoke to him on the phone as was almost ready to pop for one of his kits and also purchase the 4l80E via a Syclone Specific dealer, but I was advised by Brian Hartman(Syclone Trans Guru) that I would be making a big mistake going with the 4l80E.

What I think Brian Hartman is trying to say is anyone who says their 4l80E woud be a performance improvement over their 700R4(aside from durability), never had a properly engineered 700R4 to begin with.

[Elusive R]

FWIW, a friend of mine has a 2001 Silverado 4WD with a supercharged (Radix) 5.3L. He was putting down around 370 RWHP and 410 RWTQ and has run a best of 13.57 @ 99.5. He went through 5 - 5!!! - 4L60E's and 4L65E's (built up, hi-perf and just the electronic version of the 700R4) before going to a 4L80E. He's now running a 6.0L with the Radix and a big cam and only has a few miles on it, but I rode in it today and it seems much better to me - shifts nicer around town, still nice and crisp at WOT. I know 1st gear in the 4L80 is taller (2.4x vs. 3.2x??) than in the 4L60, but I would think you could gear your way around that. It comes down to choosing what will last versus what will perform best. My buddy chose what will last, as rebuilding every few thousand miles (and sometimes just a few hundred) was not worth it.

Also, my buddy's trans builder was very confident - almost arrogant - that he could build the 4L6xE's to hold up to the power. I think the AWD/4WD launches are incredibly hard on the parts. He finally went to someone else and had the 4L80 done. I don't mean to discredit your builder - I'm sure he knows what he's doing - but sometimes things just don't work out.

Ryan

[ivanko]

I agree especially in my case, it's really not the builder rather it's the poor design of the 700R4. Syclones put out well over 400 foot pounds of torque stock and the factory rating of 360 was under rated. I also agree it gets to the point where durability may win over performance espcially if AWD drivetrain transmission repairs are as frequent as oil changes!

I wonder if there are gear swaps for the 4l80E?

FWIW, a friend of mine has a 2001 Silverado 4WD with a supercharged (Radix) 5.3L. He was putting down around 370 RWHP and 410 RWTQ and has run a best of 13.57 @ 99.5. He went through 5 - 5!!! - 4L60E's and 4L65E's (built up, hi-perf and just the electronic version of the 700R4) before going to a 4L80E. He's now running a 6.0L with the Radix and a big cam and only has a few miles on it, but I rode in it today and it seems much better to me - shifts nicer around town, still nice and crisp at WOT. I know 1st gear in the 4L80 is taller (2.4x vs. 3.2x??) than in the 4L60, but I would think you could gear your way around that. It comes down to choosing what will last versus what will perform best. My buddy chose what will last, as rebuilding every few thousand miles (and sometimes just a few hundred) was not worth it.

Also, my buddy's trans builder was very confident - almost arrogant - that he could build the 4L6xE's to hold up to the power. I think the AWD/4WD launches are incredibly hard on the parts. He finally went to someone else and had the 4L80 done. I don't mean to discredit your builder - I'm sure he knows what he's doing - but sometimes things just don't work out.

Ryan

[Steve Chryssos]

..... Brian Hartman tells me the 4L80E will be a pig in my truck and I will lose the nice 1-2 shift and the responsive hard shifts of the 700R4........
Thank you.
Adam

That's false. Both shift timing and firmness are 100% fully programmable. Delaying the 1-2 shift or completing it sooner is just a few software keystrokes away. Likewise with firmness. So if you don't like the 1-2 shift, you will simply adjust it without breaking a sweat. An electronic transmission gives you complete digital control over calibration relative to throttle position (load) rpm, and vehicle speed. A pre-electronic transmission simply cannot compare.

Furthermore I would suggest that your transmission failures--given proper components and modification--might be a direct result of the limited calibration control available from a 700R4. The engine is hitting the transmission harder than allowable under some combination of circumstances. And since your 700R4 builder is a specialist, I can only assume that he has fine-tuned the calibration as well as possible. Without computer control, he just does not have the means to take it to the next level.

It's all about the computer.

[cutlasskid]

are you using the 4l65e 5 pinion carriers ?

[ivanko]

That's false. Both shift timing and firmness are 100% fully programmable. Delaying the 1-2 shift or completing it sooner is just a few software keystrokes away. Likewise with firmness. So if you don't like the 1-2 shift, you will simply adjust it without breaking a sweat. An electronic transmission gives you complete digital control over calibration relative to throttle position (load) rpm, and vehicle speed. A pre-electronic transmission simply cannot compare.

Furthermore I would suggest that your transmission failures--given proper components and modification--might be a direct result of the limited calibration control available from a 700R4. The engine is hitting the transmission harder than allowable under some combination of circumstances. And since your 700R4 builder is a specialist, I can only assume that he has fine-tuned the calibration as well as possible. Without computer control, he just does not have the means to take it to the next level.

It's all about the computer.

I agree and I believe the repetitive hard shifts even at part throttle have a cumulative effect and have finally taken their toll. It must have been metal fatigue since I didn't do anything crazy when it broke.

I watched the video on your site and am curious if you had programmed your transmisison to shift softer during the filming? I know it's difficult to tell from the video clip, but the shifts seemed noticeably slower than what I've experienced with my transmission.

[ivanko]

are you using the 4l65e 5 pinion carriers ?

We will be retrofitting the older 5 pinion non powdered metal pinion carrier. I was told we will have to delete the nice custom bearing as there is no room to fit with the older setup.

[Steve Chryssos]

I watched the video on your site and am curious if you had programmed your transmisison to shift softer during the filming? I know it's difficult to tell from the video clip, but the shifts seemed noticeably slower than what I've experienced with my transmission.

Your first instinct when tuning is to set everything on kill--y'know: Do your best Michael Schumacher impersonation. The you tend to go back and make the shifts only as hard as they need to be.

WOT 1-2 shift: Lightning quick
Part throttle 2-3 shift: Softer

Think in terms of having full control over throttle position, rpm and wheel speed as opposed to taking whatever your trans shop gives you with a pre-electronic "shift kit" Much like comparing jets in a carburetor to a digital fuel injection map.

[Turbo Deuce]

I had an aftermarket 700r4 with 2500 stall in my chevy ll @ 350rwhp and a 150 shot. The car was a street car that got some track time. Shifts were firm and the trans was pretty good except having to replace clutch packs once a year. I feel I was lucky. One thing I did not like was the gear spread from 1st to 2nd.

I have a 4l80e now in the car with a 383 and a T76 turbo. The set up will make 900fwhp. The 700r4 would have pucked its guts with this set up. The gear spread is better, as the 4l80e is like the turbo 400 spread. I am running the TCI controller and can set shift points by MPH in any gear. I can set WOT shift points and never have to shift manually.

I am concerned your trans man can even compare the 700r4 to a 4l80e. If you make over 500hp and want overdrive the 4L80E is the chioce.

[MickyT]

Im running a Gear Vendor with a Turbo 350 and although the power isnt in the same range yet as you mention when I researched overdrive transmissions it seemed like the logical solution for now and as we add power. We have only had the car on the road for a week however gotta say its a pretty cool setup.