Would You Pay For This?

[71RS/SS396]

I didn't want to clutter up Bill Howell's thread so I'm starting this one.
Some of you know my family owns Jet Hot and we put on some auto-x driving schools at most of the ASCS events, it can be expensive for us to do depending on who we have to get for instructors, but we feel it's important for people to understand what they are doing out there and what they should be looking at on their cars. With that being said and with Bill wanting to increase safety would you guys be willing pony up the extra money above the entry fee to take classes at the events for road course instruction? It can cost $500-$1,000 plus expenses for an instructor per day, so with several instructors at an event I could see it costing as much as a few hundred per person to do this depending on how many sign up for it. We haven't discussed this amongst ourselves or with ASCS yet so I don't want anyone assuming we are doing this yet but I would like feedback to make the decision to move forward or not.
I don't want to speak for Bill but my sense is, you are going to have to prove your driving skills/training before you're going to be allowed on the track solo at full speed so we might as well accept the fact that that's the way it's going to be.

[wiedemab]

Tim,

I would absolutely be interested in something like this. The only problem I have right now is - -I don't have a car finished (small problem!).

From a price perspective - - Depending on the structure of the instruction and the amount of time on the track, I don't see $200-$300 being an issue. Based on your numbers that would be 3-4 drivers per instructor to break even.

Brandon

[71RS/SS396]

Brandon, I don't have exact numbers and it will probably depend on participation but those numbers are pretty realistic and I think this will be the most affordable way for people to get training.

[57hemicuda]

I thought chasing you was instruction enough! The only draw back I see to doing it, is for some of the guys, and gals staying away from the event because of the additional expense. I know Bill was saying some of the venues where tough to fill anyway. I'd hate to see the increase keep anyone from coming, and not filling up the event. My biggest fear is this is going to go away one day.

I don't know if you meant it would be an optional when we signed up, you know I'm all in for the coming in early for practice and instruction.

[wiedemab]

Good question Ron. My understanding is that it would be optional, but I'm not sure if that was the intent.

[GregWeld]

Tim ---


A couple thoughts….


Not "everyone" needs instruction -- or can afford it… at any given time. If an event is all day -- an instructor could ride with many different drivers. And there are guys such as yourself - Pozzi - etc all that might offer their services for a fee - to those that have gone beyond the basics and are looking to improve etc. So perhaps a combination of "pro" -- and "pro level but not pro instructor".

My thinking is here - that as we all know - you're not going to go from a couple auto x last year - to being qualified to go full tilt on a road course with a couple instructor ride alongs. There's not only the seat time - but the car set up etc… So to me - this needs to be "building block" style. A person should come away with "things to think about and study" -- and then practice on the auto x etc - and then next time they can - they need some more instructor seat time.

I guess my point might be that this is more "democratic" process…. where perhaps the expense is shared by all --- somewhat…. i.e., the fees for entry might be $50 higher than otherwise -- and the STUDENTS that need/want the instruction - pay an extra fee… (not sure what that would look like - but my democratic approach is an effort to bring that down some).

Now --- what EVERYONE at the event might get for their extra "cost" is the Pros discussing the lines at that track - the braking zones - some "tips" etc BEFORE or during breakfast…. and again at LUNCH… etc. So that EVERYONE would get some good input from the entire experience.


These are just thoughts here… not "do this or don't do that". Just trying to put thoughts to paper.


Love ya buddy!
GW

[71RS/SS396]

GW thanks for the feedback that's what I'm looking for. I really want peoples feedback of how to structure the cost and if they're willing to pay more in entry fees. I think everyone will benefit from this, even the experienced drivers will benefit in having folks on the track with them that are aware of what they're doing and not doing something unexpected in front of them.

[71RS/SS396]

I thought chasing you was instruction enough! The only draw back I see to doing it, is for some of the guys, and gals staying away from the event because of the additional expense. I know Bill was saying some of the venues where tough to fill anyway. I'd hate to see the increase keep anyone from coming, and not filling up the event. My biggest fear is this is going to go away one day.

I don't know if you meant it would be an optional when we signed up, you know I'm all in for the coming in early for practice and instruction.

Ron, I think the time has come from a safety standpoint to not worry about whether people will show up because of the expense, it will all be over with if we have a bad incident anyways. I think we can get people trained cheaper this way vs them going to hpde.....etc. If you go to a track day at any track they have a requirement for training and experience. I think it's wise for us to do the same. I think the organizers will have to determine whether it's mandatory or not, it's their sandbox.

Btw you're in trouble if you think following me is any training, a show maybe! :confused59: :mock:

[GregWeld]

Ya know -- ya got me thinkin' now - and that's NEVER a good outcome….


But these "EVENTS" could be made into "workshop/events"…. where the goal is not really to win anything - or be the fastest anything.. but rather just to IMPROVE EVERYTHING…


In other words -- a couple pro instructors -- toss in a couple guys that are dang near pros (a lessor fee structure for just tips and help)… AND you could toss in a guy like Ron Sutton for tuning.

So if the instructor/ride along semi pro -- says the car is "this or that"…. a guy like Ron could be there to DISCUSS (not work on!) what can be done either with the current set up - or with additional work/parts to make the car better… which as he has stated - will help to make the driver better.


Just thinkin' is all.


Most of "US" --- pointing at myself --- are real amateurs in the suspension (and driving) department -- so it would be nice - and fun - to learn a ton at these sessions…

[mdprovee]

I would be willing to pony up more money for instructors. That is my goal for this year, a autocross school, and a road course school.

[SSLance]

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.

[Ns RS]

Tim,

Agree with Gregs' thoughts on this. Auto X school (democratic) and pay as you go road course instruction on top of the entrance fee. Ron Sutton on track would be fantastic.

I attended Heidts weekend and Motorstate - road course only and personally came away with wanting to learn more. Would I pay additional to have instruction on Auto X and road course absolutely.
Apart from the trepidation of being on the roadcourse theres a great feeling to be had after running one to the best of your ability/skills. Its that feeling that will push the hobby further - the challenge lies in doing it safely for everyone wanting/capable enough to cross that threshold in progressive steps.
I had a fire resistant jumpsuit, approved helmet, 5 pt restraints, fire bottle etc.. and took my own time/pace. It left me wanting to learn more and the desire to do it again.

Auto X school at Heidts weekend is the goal this year (thx Tim for sponsoring) along with more roadcourse runs - safely of course and having the option of pay as you go instruction is a big big plus.

[71RS/SS396]

Ya know -- ya got me thinkin' now - and that's NEVER a good outcome….


But these "EVENTS" could be made into "workshop/events"…. where the goal is not really to win anything - or be the fastest anything.. but rather just to IMPROVE EVERYTHING…


In other words -- a couple pro instructors -- toss in a couple guys that are dang near pros (a lessor fee structure for just tips and help)… AND you could toss in a guy like Ron Sutton for tuning.

So if the instructor/ride along semi pro -- says the car is "this or that"…. a guy like Ron could be there to DISCUSS (not work on!) what can be done either with the current set up - or with additional work/parts to make the car better… which as he has stated - will help to make the driver better.


Just thinkin' is all.


Most of "US" --- pointing at myself --- are real amateurs in the suspension (and driving) department -- so it would be nice - and fun - to learn a ton at these sessions…
Greg, I like the idea of this and I think it is something worth exploring for sure.
I think we can do this and still allow the big dogs to go out on their bonzi runs if they choose, it will be a matter of managing the track time.

[71RS/SS396]

Tim,

Agree with Gregs' thoughts on this. Auto X school (democratic) and pay as you go road course instruction on top of the entrance fee. Ron Sutton on track would be fantastic.

I attended Heidts weekend and Motorstate - road course only and personally came away with wanting to learn more. Would I pay additional to have instruction on Auto X and road course absolutely.
Apart from the trepidation of being on the roadcourse theres a great feeling to be had after running one to the best of your ability/skills. Its that feeling that will push the hobby further - the challenge lies in doing it safely for everyone wanting/capable enough to cross that threshold in progressive steps.
I had a fire resistant jumpsuit, approved helmet, 5 pt restraints, fire bottle etc.. and took my own time/pace. It left me wanting to learn more and the desire to do it again.

Auto X school at Heidts weekend is the goal this year (thx Tim for sponsoring) along with more roadcourse runs - safely of course and having the option of pay as you go instruction is a big big plus.

One of the problems we had last year with the auto-x school at Heidts was people bailed out of the school because there was road course time open at the same time so we had a low participation in the school so I'm not sure it was worth the investment. I would prefer we concentrate on one discipline per day at the events because of this.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey guys. I haven't participated in a "big" event yet, although I did attend the RTTH in 2012 as a spectator. So, take my thoughts as an outsider without mainstream pro touring based event track time experience, if need be.

Let me start with a question to verify so that I'm not misunderstanding- Are you proposing that folks pay to have an instructor for road course racing, for auto X racing, or both?

Let me then ask, at what point did pro touring events start catering to people who want to be amateur professional drivers with near full on race cars only? Not trying to be sarcastic or a donkey here, I'm really asking this.

I'm all about safety, and I think to go fast in road course racing requires decent instruction, especially if you're interested in pushing your car to it's limits. I'm looking forward to the day when I can afford to attend a real racing school.

Unfortunately I'm one of those guys that has to stand on the corner with a sign that reads "will work for parts", my projects have all been low budget, because of family and other obligations my toys are lowest on my spare money priority list, and I do the best I can with what I got. At the end of the day I have what I think would be a fairly competitive car that gets driven daily but I can't attend many events because I just don't have the coin to get to them, especially if the entrance fee is $200 +. I wouldn't say anything here if I thought I was a minority but from what I've read, generally speaking there are many folks like me.

I've attended a handful of local events since building the car. Each of these cost $50 or less to race and there were plenty of newbies. The most organized (read strict) event I attended was a local SCCA autoX. The instruction there basically consisted of Drive smart and not stupid, walk the course, take a few ride alongs if you're not familiar with how this works, invite a ride along with you if you want tips to improve your time, and have a good time. If you drive like a nut you will be asked to leave. During the whole day only one car spun out, but he got the car under control quickly, didn't veer off the course, and didn't even knock down any cones. I guess he found his car's limit and he did fine for the rest of the day after that.

At all the events I attended I had a blast and went home excited to make changes to the car and attend another event. If where this is headed means attending autoX based events for $400-500 dollars entrance fee than I'll have to go back to drag racing for $25 a shot. All the excitement to run autoX at the same events as those that could be considered part time " professional race drivers", the opportunity to meet some of them, to ask them for a ride along and possibly have them have a run driving my car, the ability to chat with other drivers to get tips on driving and tuning, etc etc., all that goes in the toilet because pro touring has suddenly become the guys with the fattest wallets are the only ones that get to play.

My car can barely top 135 on the top end and I'd be cautious for a while to push it much past what some of you guys are doing in 3rd gear on a road course. I don't want to crash any more than anyone else on the course wants me to. I know at this point the limits of my driving skill and and the limits of my car and would likely stay below them until I felt I could take it to the next level. I think 10 or 15 minutes of basic tips from a more experienced driver could get me safely going. If I don't have legitimate professional training and years of racing experience, or a $100K + race car disguised in street car clothing with 600+ hp, does that mean I'm not invited to have some fun running a few laps on a road course? At what point does the little guy newbie get to participate aside from having won the lottery?

Again, I'm not saying this to chaff anyone's hide, I just want to share some insight from the other side of the fence. I think that when huge limitations, whether it be experience, training, or financial, get dropped on an event, that highly limits who can and will attend events. Those that can't meet those obligations will have their dreams put to rest and they'll quietly go away. The result of that is the sport will diminish amongst anyone who doesn't have a big bank account. Really that's not what the pro-touring or any car racing is really about, it's about opening it up to anyone so the sport can survive.

From my point of view, the pro-touring movement was designed so that anyone can have fun, from the guy with a stock $1500 '84 Camaro to the guy with the $300,000 '69 Camaro, and we could do so in a run what you brung atmosphere. It's easy to see some of the biggest events have turned into disguised race cars participating and guys like me don't stand a chance to be invited. I say who cares about watching, I wanna race.

I was under the impression that the whole idea of all this was to create a venue so that you didn't have to have sponsors and a $400,000 car to see track time. The whole idea was that we didn't need to be overly competitive, secretive, and have engineers on our race team to build a better car so we could win the big prize. Pro touring originated so that anyone could enjoy track time without the burdens associated with professional racing. Is it ok if we just keep it that way?

That's my .02 I guess, thanks for listening.

[Ns RS]

One of the problems we had last year with the auto-x school at Heidts was people bailed out of the school because there was road course time open at the same time so we had a low participation in the school so I'm not sure it was worth the investment. I would prefer we concentrate on one discipline per day at the events because of this.

One discipline per day sounds like the plan so as to not overlap while maintaining class participation. If you guys do Auto X and or Roadcourse school count me in.

Having attended MCACN this year I saw Heidts promoting the 2014 event already and met up with some 2013 observers that are putting in a quadlink to participate next year. I get the feeling that excitement is buidling, more participants will want to partake, making for bigger future events.

Challenge lies in doing so within a structured format that is safe for all parties involved.

[BMR Sales]

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.

That is similar to how we run things in PCA

T.C.

[71RS/SS396]

Ben, I don't think anyone should be excluded at all, I'm trying to do the opposite and figure out what makes financial sense for everyone involved (participants, sponsors, and promoters). This thread has more to do with the road course than auto-x since the speeds are lower for auto-x the risks are far lower. If you think you can get to 10-15 minutes of tips from someone and you are ready for a road course you are sadly mistaken. I think the real answer to this is going to be several classes for different levels of skill and car so everyone can play. We need to address peoples driving skills as part of an overall safety plan before the unthinkable happens. I've been on track at these events and had people do some pretty stupid stuff in front of me either from driving over their head or from plain just not knowing any better.

[71RS/SS396]

I can only compare a SCCA PDX vs a NASA HPDE, as I haven't been to any of these other events before...but there was huge difference between these two above.

The main difference I experienced was the debrief meeting after each session where you had to go back and face the other drivers in your group to talk about what happened during the last session. Also discussed in these meetings with the other drivers AND instructors was what you were having trouble with and what you accomplished during the last session. That really cleaned up the issues that I encountered at the SCCA PDX which were for the most part basically wide open with little to none instruction or accountability.

With NASA they have the levels of HPDE 1,2,3 and 4. 1 requires an instructor in the car and runs with the 2s...3 requires an instructor again and runs with the 4s. Each driver has a log book and has to graduate from each level up to the next based on grading from the instructor and the organizers of the division of NASA. When I was in group 1, we had a guy with racing experience in a Pantos...running with us as he was working on his log book and gradings to work his way up to racing with NASA. It impressed me because he was WAY faster than the rest of us, but at one point I pointed him by in what I considered as a safe zone, but he wouldn't pass because he didn't want to take the chance of it screwing up his grading.

In my last session of the second day, I was running with the 2s and I had the leader of groups 3-4 ride along with me to grade me on whether I should be passed up into the 3s. It was like being back in school all over again...there was accountability, careful to do the correct things at ALL times, then about halfway through the session he started teaching me different ways to get around the track faster so that I'd be more comfortable running with the faster cars\drivers.

Point is, a structure like this is MUCH safer than a just put them out on the track and run as fast as you can kind of structure. And YES...I would pay more to run in a scenario set up like this than just an open track day. But it has to be more than just having instructors on hand, you should build the whole program so that the instructors are able to help the drivers progress through different levels while keeping everyone safe at the same time.
Lance, I think the plan is to make sure people have the necessary skills and equipment to move up. These discussions are going to help everyone involved formulate a format that is safe and fun so people will keep attending and the hobby will grow.

[SSLance]

That sounds very good to me.

[Bad94]

Tim, Im game. I did a 10/10th event in Oct, and had Danny Popp, as my instructor, what a track day that was. Im doing another in April.


I feel that whoever puts a event on needs to have the drivers list the tracks they have driven on. And if you have never been on a road course, before you can go out by yourself a instructor has to go with you.

I was on a road course this year with a newbie and he was all over the place had no idea where to place the car, when to brake. I finally pulled in pit road and restarted to get away from him.

I was off track more in 2013 then I ever want to be, I had a few close calls with a tire wall and fence. But that's lack of seat time.

[TheJDMan]

It appears to me that we are almost talking about two completely different types of events. Anytime an event organizer sets up an event format where a winner is determined, that is what I would describe as a competition event. On the other hand, if an event is designed to teach performance driving which is what we are discussing here. I would call that a Driving School.

I don't think a competition event and a driving school should be run concurently as the competition side will be a distraction to the driving school and vise versa. I feel very strongly that the ultimate safety device in any car is the driver and anything that can be done to enhance the drivers skill, knowlege and confidence is a worthy endevor.

The bottom line is this. I would like to see dedicated driving school events seperate from competition events. I understand that funds are tight which is exactly why I have not been able to attend a Bondurant or Barber caliber driving school. I think this would be a viable cost effective alternative learning event geared specifically to the guys like me who build and drive on a budget. The net result is that drivers get better, safer and more competent and to me that is a big win for everyone.

I view this whole safety discussion as an indication that the Pro-Touring movement is maturing and I see driving school events as a great sponsorship opportunity for any manufacturer involved in SEMA.

[71RS/SS396]

It appears to me that we are almost talking about two completely different types of events. Anytime an event organizer sets up an event format where a winner is determined, that is what I would describe as a competition event. On the other hand, if an event is designed to teach performance driving which is what we are discussing here. I would call that a Driving School.

I don't think a competition event and a driving school should be run concurently as the competition side will be a distraction to the driving school and vise versa. I feel very strongly that the ultimate safety device in any car is the driver and anything that can be done to enhance the drivers skill, knowlege and confidence is a worthy endevor.

The bottom line is this. I would like to see dedicated driving school events seperate from competition events. I understand that funds are tight which is exactly why I have not been able to attend a Bondurant or Barber caliber driving school. I think this would be a viable cost effective alternative learning event geared specifically to the guys like me who build and drive on a budget. The net result is that drivers get better, safer and more competent and to me that is a big win for everyone.

I view this whole safety discussion as an indication that the Pro-Touring movement is maturing and I see driving school events as a great sponsorship opportunity for any manufacturer involved in SEMA.
You can do both at a single event we've done it many times with the Get Started Racing Schools for auto-x. The track rental is so expensive that I think it will have to be done in conjunction with the events for it to be viable. The run groups will just be separated into instructional and solo. I don't see it as any different than what is done now to match up groups of people with like skills.

[GregWeld]

Tim --

People have NO IDEA what it costs to rent these tracks per day…. They'd be blown away if they had any clue.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Ben, I don't think anyone should be excluded at all, I'm trying to do the opposite and figure out what makes financial sense for everyone involved (participants, sponsors, and promoters). This thread has more to do with the road course than auto-x since the speeds are lower for auto-x the risks are far lower. If you think you can get to 10-15 minutes of tips from someone and you are ready for a road course you are sadly mistaken. I think the real answer to this is going to be several classes for different levels of skill and car so everyone can play. We need to address peoples driving skills as part of an overall safety plan before the unthinkable happens. I've been on track at these events and had people do some pretty stupid stuff in front of me either from driving over their head or from plain just not knowing any better.

Perhaps I should have made it more clear that my thoughts were more directed at autoX rather than road course, as that's where I'd feel I'm better suited to drive. Until I had some driving instruction, I don't think really pushing my car on a road course would be a good idea, and I have no shame in admitting that. I think it's always a good idea for one of the rules at an event is don't be an idiot, we're all adults and it's ok to drive at your real driving level, you're not here to impress anyone. Honestly I'd be scared having more experienced cars and drivers flying up on my tail at 150 mph, and would feel more at home on the track with folks at my level. I'm sure those more experienced drivers feel the same.

I agree, 10-15 minutes isn't enough info to go nuts out, that isn't what I was suggesting. But for a guy that just wants to take a few laps at a little less speed, a simple conversation might do? You guys know Jay, our driver for the Speedtech Nova. A simple conversation with him over dinner totally changed the way I drive for the better. Just a few tips on what to and what not to do made a huge difference. That's what I am talking about here.

I've been on the road course At Miller Motorsports park's "Wide Open Wednesday" twice with my car, probably never got above 90 mph and had a blast. They do this every month, invite the general public out to put their street cars on the race track and they don't give you any instruction at all. You just pay your $35, get in line, and go. Their events are ALWAYS packed and I never saw any issues with safety, even with complete idiots bringing their Dodge Caravans out. One thing they do is set up cones here and there to keep speeds down. Here's a link to a video that illustrates well how they did it. Subaru at Wide Open Wednesday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j5oLdRtKG8)

Personally I would totally feel comfortable in a road course class where there's a pace car that goes a reasonable speed and I'm not allowed to pass him. After I'm "certified", or something else like that I move up to a more open class. When I was in high school I had a 15 second 1/4 mile time with my Nova, and woot wooted it all the way down the track. Over the next couple years I progressively built much faster cars, and the excitement was always the same. Its the thrill of being on the course rather than the white knuckle going way fast that would attract folks like me I guess. As has been said, open track days with a little instruction to me are way more fun than a road course competition. To each his own, right?

Someone else said keep the events separated. I like this idea. Since I'd rather autoX than road course, it would kinda blow to have only half a day of autox and then everyone goes on the road course. Saturday autoX and Sunday road course sounds better to me, then I can still get in a full day of racing and choose whether or not to move on to the high speed stuff. Paying per day for an event rather than paying one set price for 2 or three days sounds more appealing too, especially if I had no intentions of sticking around for Sunday's road course time.

I'm sure this thread will lead to ideas and implementing programs so that everyone can join in. When I replied the response to the thread seemed to lean towards let's implement everything we need to, cost for participants isn't an issue. I share a lot of my thoughts to help everyone think about both sides. I guess simply keeping things on an equal playing field for all involved keeps the fire alive for all of us.

[71RS/SS396]

Tim --

People have NO IDEA what it costs to rent these tracks per day…. They'd be blown away if they had any clue.

Yep, I think people are getting the idea I'm trying to exclude the low budget guys which is the complete opposite of what I want to do. I think if we all work on this we can come to good middle ground to satisfy the majority of the community. The reality is these events are money losers and without sponsors they wouldn't happen at all, we do it to grow the hobby and because we enjoy the people.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I think its a great idea.

A few years ago my wife set up my bachelor party get together at Buttonwillow. We did it during their performance drivers clinic LINK (http://buttonwillowraceway.com/calendar-of-events/performance-driving-clinic/). They set up two sessions for us. A beginners instruction and an advance open track. It was a blast and we had tons of track time. I can't remember what it was but its $195 a person per day and I think they gave us a discount for having a large group.

I remember Mrs Pozzi and Curtis were instructing at a track near Sac. We can see what they would do for a group.

[Ron in SoCal]

^ Gaetano is the dude in the middle with his shirt off :lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

LOL, this was when Gaetano was still doing collections for his god father. Must be a close familly.

I actually found the thread on P-T. man that was more than a few years ago. :underchair:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/5731-Vince-s-bachelor-party-track-day!!!

Tim, if you check around it seems most tracks do a similar thing.

[71RS/SS396]

LOL, this was when Gaetano was still doing collections for his god father. Must be a close familly.

I actually found the thread on P-T. man that was more than a few years ago. :underchair:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/5731-Vince-s-bachelor-party-track-day!!!

Tim, if you check around it seems most tracks do a similar thing.

Vince, I've been talking to Mike "Junior" Johnson that owns Evolution driving school about this and he's on board with helping out. I had some private instruction from Mike this year and was very impressed with his methods. Mike is building a C3 vette to get into the community so I think it would be good to use him at the events so if people to want to continue their training they are already have a source they can utilize that they are familiar with.

[Z06vette]

Hey Tim. I would be def interested in any instruction offered at the event, or even the day before the event. The driving school offered at 2012 RTTH was great for me since I had never been to a dedicated event. My only autox experience was running the ones on the powertours. We walked the track with the volunteer instructors & they gave us tips before we ever got on the course. Brian ran a group by himself & rode with each driver, explaing how important car placement was on different apsects of the course. After each run he told us what we did wrong, and we drove thru again. We did this 3 times & it was extremely helpful in just that short period of time. I have never been on a road course but would def pay for instruction before hand. The progress Deb made in one year was enough for me to see I could benefit from instruction & seat time.
Scott

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Yep, I think people are getting the idea I'm trying to exclude the low budget guys which is the complete opposite of what I want to do. I think if we all work on this we can come to good middle ground to satisfy the majority of the community. The reality is these events are money losers and without sponsors they wouldn't happen at all, we do it to grow the hobby and because we enjoy the people.

I hope I'm not mixing up the pot too much, I certainly don't mean to and apologize if I have. I guess unless you see what's behind the door it's hard to know what's involved with an event like this. Honestly I have no concept what it would cost to put this together.

I know racing at a nice race facility is always ideal and adds to the atmosphere. As far as auto X goes is it possible to rent a less expensive facility to help bring costs down? Maybe a college parking lot or something? The SCCA group in Salt Lake City have regular autoX at a big auditorium parking lot, the kind of place that hosts rock concerts, in door motoX and monster truck events, etc. Maybe the cost is similar for a place like that, I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.

Anyway, conversations like this lead to solutions, so keep the wheels turnin'.

[SSLance]

Finding a parking lot big enough to hold an autocross with an owner or manager willing to let a group race their cars on the property is often easier said than done. KC Region SCCA used to race in Arrowhead Stadium parking lot but they put an end to that and we've struggled to find a suitable spot ever since.

Heck, I've had a hard time finding a spot of pavement to use just for tuning my shocks and setup... Everyone is afraid of liability these days...

[71RS/SS396]

I hope I'm not mixing up the pot too much, I certainly don't mean to and apologize if I have. I guess unless you see what's behind the door it's hard to know what's involved with an event like this. Honestly I have no concept what it would cost to put this together.

I know racing at a nice race facility is always ideal and adds to the atmosphere. As far as auto X goes is it possible to rent a less expensive facility to help bring costs down? Maybe a college parking lot or something? The SCCA group in Salt Lake City have regular autoX at a big auditorium parking lot, the kind of place that hosts rock concerts, in door motoX and monster truck events, etc. Maybe the cost is similar for a place like that, I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.

Anyway, conversations like this lead to solutions, so keep the wheels turnin'.

It's all good Ben! You've done nothing wrong imo, we are all just throwing ideas out there, the more input we get from everyone the better we can set-up the events.