A new direction for me in 2014

[Bill Howell]

It is after much thought that I make this post. I have tried to touch on this in a recent post about plans for 2014. I have talked with partners, vendors, supporters and participants about this and why I am doing this post/email.
I have been involved from a very personal level in the development of this nitch we call Protouring. I have lead the charge, drove the train and cheerlead all I know to do. I did it in the beginning for the fun, at some point, it did become a part time business. Never designed to be my day job, but did help with me being able to afford my new found, very expensive hobby.
That is the ground work. We went from cruises, to drag racing to autocrossing and finally moved into full fledged, all out Road Coarse Racing. Call it what you like, but when you strap into a car with a 5 point harness, pull onto a track, run it as hard as you feel your are talented to do, be that understood or perceived, whether or not it has a tag, insurance or proper racing equipment, YOU ARE RACING! Now, as the sport grew, and as more and more came on board, joined the ranks, built more cars, faster cars and even now special purpose built cars, there is one thing that needed to happen that didn't. I blame myself for that, regardless if you were running in my events or elsewhere. I am writing this right now to say that as far as I, Bill Howell is concerned....NO MAS!
This hobby is growing now exponentially, cars are getting stupid fast, every year we read or witness more and more horsepower, more and more speed, with no or very little attention to driver talent or enough safety equipment.
Guys, Girls, participants, vendors and promoters. This is a TRAINWRECK just looking for a place to happen. I am no longer willing to be the or one of the conductors. Now that we have cars with more horsepower than NASCAR being driven by people that have very little training or track time it is just a matter of time before the so far minor incidents turn into something far worse. This year I can name at least 5 separate times that sheet metal was bent this year. Only one of those involved injuries. The clock is ticking guys, I have to bring it to the surface. It has been the white elephant in the room for a while, I am just the one that is pointing at it and saying lets fix it before it eats us.
Three reasons I am screaming this.
1. From a personal standpoint I could not live with myself knowing I was responsible in anyway for one of my friends being injured or killed.
2. From a business point of view, no amount of money, fame or recognition is worth the pain a bad accident would do for the business.
3. As a very good friend told me just yesterday, most personal injury attorneys can not even spell liability wavier. To them it doesn't exist. I can sign anything to release the promoter, the vendors and others from my stupidity. However, if I die due to my self destructive actions, all Melinda needs is a good attorney and one hint of negligence on anyone's part and it is all over.
All that said, lets move on to 2014.
1. As a participant and one with the need for speed, yes, I will very privately attend some events as a private person, running my private car, and have a blast.
2. As Bill Howell the promoter, until I am comfortable that I have CMA with all my current concerns and issues, don't expect to see my name attached to any event that I KNOW is unsafe. This will probably mean as a company, I will not be involved in many or any Road Coarse Events. As a company I will change my focus on what I consider Fun and Safe. This doesn't mean I am going anywhere, it simply means look for a different direction. Autocrossing has it's areas of concern also, but as a promoter there are things I can do to insure the most you can do is get some cone rash on your quarter panels.

Does this mean no Road Coarse anymore. Absolutely not. However, it will mean lead follow laps for people that can not prove to me they and their car are ready to be turned loose. This still won't cure all problems, but know that the rules, requirements and qualifications are going to be stiff.
Will this hurt my business plan? It may in the short term but I feel the long term results will be both understood by most and appreciated by all.

The first and immediate fall out from this and has already been agreed by the principles of ASCS is unfortunately with the closing of El Toro, we will not have a RTTC this spring. I hate it, I know people have already planned for this event. We have invested a lot of time and money to make it happen but in the end, we feel this is the right call. I will promise now though that there will be something in California this summer. Announcement coming soon.

There are plenty venues if you have the need for speed and I wish everyone well, I just can not any longer avoid that elephant that has been staring at me for over a year now.

Please be sure to share this anywhere you can.

[Flash68]

It has been the white elephant in the room for a while, I am just the one that is pointing at it and saying lets fix it before it eats us.


Many people, small and large, insiders and outsiders, have been saying this for awhile. Not a new discussion.

With you being an organizer, many will be glad you are doing something about it regarding your group.

[GregWeld]

Well said Bill!


I can tell you I personally just paid Mister Hobaugh's repair shop 15 grand to repair the very minor damage done when my son Alex put it into the tires in turn 5 of Laguna Seca. That car (Lotus 2 Eleven) is "cheap" to repair as the body panels are all made to just hang off the chassis.

I was mostly really happy to hear the words "I'm OK"…


The speeds I am hitting in my Mustang down the front stretch there are holy cow fast… and it wouldn't take much of anything to have a very serious wreck just after the bridge. Just some tranny fluid or coolant from the guy in front of me and I'm going off there big time…


Safe, and fun, are not mutually exclusive. We can have both. Glad to hear you're IN FRONT of it before it's too late.

[Bill Howell]

Well said Bill!


I can tell you I personally just paid Mister Hobaugh's repair shop 15 grand to repair the very minor damage done when my son Alex put it into the tires in turn 5 of Laguna Seca. That car (Lotus 2 Eleven) is "cheap" to repair as the body panels are all made to just hang off the chassis.

I was mostly really happy to hear the words "I'm OK"…


The speeds I am hitting in my Mustang down the front stretch there are holy cow fast… and it wouldn't take much of anything to have a very serious wreck just after the bridge. Just some tranny fluid or coolant from the guy in front of me and I'm going off there big time…


Safe, and fun, are not mutually exclusive. We can have both. Glad to hear you're IN FRONT of it before it's too late.

Thanks for the validation Greg from someone that understands what I am trying to say here. Yes, there will be those that don't like our decision as a company to slow it down a bit before the train wreck happens. Everyone has their own point of view as to why I need to do one thing or another. I have tried very hard to explain it in a way that most get it. However, if you have your own agenda, this is a big wide world we live in, feel free to create any event with any safety, rules, mission statements or whatever you like. Bottom line is I am unwilling to risk my friends' safety, even if the friend doesn't like my reasons or it's effect on their event plans. :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

That's why I'm a sissy cruiser. I know I have limited repair skills and driving talent. Its been on my mind for years as well as most here I'm sure. Good post Bill.

[SSLance]

Relative newcomer here Bill, but have followed along for a while. I don't blame you one bit for standing up and getting in front of this very important issue.

I myself passed on my second 2 day HPDE event of 2013 I had planned on attending at HPT this October because I was learning that my car is getting faster, yet the safety devices in the car were not keeping pace. I just couldn't do it...no matter HOW much fun it is from the driver's seat at the time.

Can't imagine anyone not understanding where you are coming from on this, I know I do. Please keep us posted on what your plans are for the rest of the year and beyond as you figure them out.

[camcojb]

Thanks for posting Bill. Being self-employed liability is always something I'm aware of. No matter how much fun this stuff is, and regardless of how good a driver is behind the wheel, stuff can and will happen. I'm waiting to hear more about your new direction. :thumbsup:

[Bill Howell]

That's why I'm a sissy cruiser. I know I have limited repair skills and driving talent. Its been on my mind for years as well as most here I'm sure. Good post Bill.

You are in luck then Stuart, you are my new target market demographic. If I can just figure out what that term means. Saw it earlier somewhere....lol

[hifi875]

Thanks for what you have contributed to our hobby. As a business owner I completely understand and agree with everything you said. With my very limited driving skills I can see where this could be really bad. Even at the ls fest autocross it was a fast course to me and I could see the potential of a mistake on my part as a competitor. I can only imagine how a promotor feels.

Even though I didnt participate in any of your events(I wussed out) they did more for our hobby than anything else to promote driving your hotrod and enjoying it in a controlled environment.

[Bill Howell]

Thanks for what you have contributed to our hobby. As a business owner I completely understand and agree with everything you said. With my very limited driving skills I can see where this could be really bad. Even at the ls fest autocross it was a fast course to me and I could see the potential of a mistake on my part as a competitor. I can only imagine how a promotor feels.

Even though I didnt participate in any of your events(I wussed out) they did more for our hobby than anything else to promote driving your hotrod and enjoying it in a controlled environment.

Thanks for the comment. ASCS isn't going anywhere and we will continue to promote this hobby we all love. We are just going to change up what we do. I think you will see it will be a good thing and there will be no need anymore to be a wuss....lol

[DRJDVM's '69]

One thing I would encourage all of these event planners to do...host more DRIVING SCHOOL type events....

Have the events focus on getting some seat time with an experienced/pro driver in the seat next to you.

I used to race with the NCRC which has done events at Thunderhill and many other CA road courses.... the most fun I had was the events where the majority of the day I had an experienced guy in the seat next to me telling what I did right/wrong and how to do it better

I've done that at AutoX events too....the instructor just jumps from car to car...

We cant all afford a big school like Bondurant etc, so this is the next best thing to LEARN to drive these cars and do it as safe as its possible

[GregWeld]

A proper driver attire ---- Yes that would be me in my Mustang --- on the cover…



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg.html)





Thanks to JerrDawg for making up this cover - not sure how he did it but it's pretty cool!!

[Sieg]

Well said Bill :thumbsup:

I'm sure the reality was not easy to address but definitely needed. Coming from a motorcycle background I understand the realities too well.

Certain motorcycle track day promoters have laid down the law. They initially lost some customers, but they also gained a higher caliber of seriously fast and safety conscious customer that made their events much more enjoyable/desirable to attend when all said and done.

Looking forward to your outline of Fun and Safe.

[71RS/SS396]

A proper driver attire ---- Yes that would be me in my Mustang --- on the cover…



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg.html)





Thanks to JerrDawg for making up this cover - not sure how he did it but it's pretty cool!!
I agree with the proper attire Greg, I consider it a part of the cars safety equipment.

[Bill Howell]

Well said Bill :thumbsup:

I'm sure the reality was not easy to address but definitely needed. Coming from a motorcycle background I understand the realities too well.

Certain motorcycle track day promoters have laid down the law. They initially lost some customers, but they also gained a higher caliber of seriously fast and safety conscious customer that made their events much more enjoyable/desirable to attend when all said and done.

Looking forward to your outline of Fun and Safe.

Yes, I understand fully. Making people be safe, even when they don't understand why, will indeed cost me in the beginning. My hope here is not to have the biggest, most, blah, blah, blah. It is to educate people that Racing is Racing, it is a dangerous sport, people do get into accidents and we need to do all we can to protect them from as much as we can. For those that don't get that, I probably don't need them at an event anyway.
All this started from my love for the hobby. However, even with my personal cars, the hobby has grown so fast, that I have a hard time with making sure it is ready to race. It wasn't built to be a racecar, so now I have to adapt it to be one and as it gets faster (sorta of a joke here) it will need to have more safety equipment. There is no one template that will fit all cars here. However, if you plan to be in the top group, you will need the top shelf equipment. If you are like most of us, your lap belt will be fine, because you will be doing parade laps. Just the cold hard truth. If that doesn't fit your needs, I will be happy to give you a book full of options. :thumbsup:

[WSSix]

You're doing the right thing, Bill. Good luck on the new direction. I hope to attend your events once I finally return home to the southeast.

[clill]

Bill you might contact the Norcal Shelby club and maybe try to team up with them by getting people signed up for their Spring Sprint driving school and track event at Thunderhill here in Northern Ca.
http://www.norcal-saac.org/springsprint/
That is the event I convinced Greg Weld to attend and it has been downhill ever since. They teach you how to drive the first day and then the second day is open track with beginners in their own group with strict no passing rules. Thunderhill is a great track to learn on because if you go off track it is usually out into dirt. Very few walls. They are also enlarging it to 4.8 miles, the longest in the country.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/racing/go-news-racing-thunderhill-raceway-park-longest-road-course-in-america

[Stuart Adams]

Maybe make a driving school mandatory before racing in an event.

How many guys here were racers before they got hooked into pro touring, very few I'd guess. It's car guys trying to race. Big difference.

[DBasher]

Bill good for you! You're headed in the right direction and its only a matter of time before others follow.

I don't know anyone on here personally, but the last thing I want to see is a post about someone having a major incident resulting in bad news.

This is the best news I've heard and support it 100%:thumbsup:

Dan

[intocarss]

"Call it what you like, but when you strap into a car with a 5 point harness, pull onto a track, run it as hard as you feel your are talented to do, be that understood or perceived, whether or not it has a tag, insurance or proper racing equipment, YOU ARE RACING"!

^^^THIS^^^

Most don't get it..AND THEY SHOULD

A Sfi driving suit, gloves, shoes and a head and neck restraint (or neck roll) should be mandatory, just like a helmet is!!

[GregWeld]

"Call it what you like, but when you strap into a car with a 5 point harness, pull onto a track, run it as hard as you feel your are talented to do, be that understood or perceived, whether or not it has a tag, insurance or proper racing equipment, YOU ARE RACING"!

^^^THIS^^^

Most don't get it..AND THEY SHOULD

A Sfi driving suit, gloves, shoes and a head and neck restraint (or neck roll) should be mandatory, just like a helmet is!!



Helmet never helped you any Jerr….



Funny how guys will spend a small fortune on the latest wheels --- or biggest baddest motor -- and won't spend a dime on safety. Doing these track days has convinced me that safety is CRITICAL. People are going really fast out there!

[Bill Howell]

Greg, about two years ago, after I had worn out two sets of front bearings at $700 a set, I figured out tracking the charger was much more intense on it than driving it. Rotors, pads,rearends, clutches, tires, people just don't realize how fast all those need maintenance. The real truth here is if you are going to track, you need a track car. I think we need to put the TOURING back in Protouring and build racecars if that is our goal.

[GregWeld]

Greg, about two years ago, after I had worn out two sets of front bearings at $700 a set, I figured out tracking the charger was much more intense on it than driving it. Rotors, pads,rearends, clutches, tires, people just don't realize how fast all those need maintenance. The real truth here is if you are going to track, you need a track car. I think we need to put the TOURING back in Protouring and build racecars if that is our goal.





Oh man -- you hit it right on the head….


Oh wait!!! Is that why I have hot rods AND track cars…


Boy am I dumb!

[Bill Howell]

Just stating the obvious...lol Of course most don't want to hear it. Guess that is why some have black balled me for even starting the conversation. Pretty sad.

[Vegas69]

I'll give you my take. When you build a pro touring car, you don't know what you have until it's finished. You can't do much with 650hp responsibly on the street or get anywhere near the actual limits of braking or cornering performance. That leads to track days like an ASCS. Then you realize you would rather race than tour. The fact that the goal of pro touring is to take an old body and make it drive closer to a modern car means that we crave performance. Performance leads to results.

I can understand why you are going this direction. I've thought it since I ran my first even with you in 2010. These cars are overpowered, under driven, rarely have safety in mind, and certainly not insured on the track. These are a few of the reasons I sold my car. I wouldn't want my ass on the hook either. It's not if, but when.

[irishlsxer]

This novice nobody, for one, would just like to say thank you for not just leaving us out altogether, and marinating on what sounds like something that will allow us not only to be able to still be involved in some form of competition, but hopefully improve the driving skills of those who desire it to the point where we can both feel competent and show competence at faster events and tracks

[preston]

I agree with your take completely Bill. I'm sure many a track day hoster shudders a bit when people show up with twin turbo wonders "hey its my first (or worse, actually 2nd ) time at a race track !".

Paul Walker's death is also a good reminder for all the street racing heroes out there. Just glad no innocent bystanders pulled in.

Seems like NASA has a good program with the power to weight classes, but pretty hard to enforce without a portable dyno and scales at the events.

[Sieg]

The years of dirt bike riding and racing taught me the importance of maintenance and replacing high wear items. Taking my street bikes to the race track reinforced preventative maintenance, suspension setup, tires, etc. simply to increase survival odds if nothing else. When you don't have a cage and harness you do your best to increase your odds. You can control safety elements by the tracks you choose to ride (minimal vertical obstructions and safe run-offs) and the promoters you support which dictate who you ride with and how........then it comes down to a certain amount of luck. But.......where there's no risk there's limited rewards.

Cars (cages) create a certain false sense of security that takes away from the importance of preventative maintenance and implementing proper safety measures. Emphasizing and reinforcing those priorities is a win-win in my book. :thumbsup:

[Shmoov69]

Bill, you're dead on and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm glad that I had a chance to go to a few events and get a taste of racing though. I'm the guy Preston was talking about there!! LoL! I can't believe that there hasn't been something BAD happen yet! Honestly, if it was not for the instructors that rode with me at the MMCC, it could've been me. Needless to say, after the first year with ZERO safety equipment, other than the stock old belts that is, I went home and had a cage installed! It's just too flippin fast and dangerous!!! I got a family to take care of!! Then I went and got stupid and added a couple hundred MORE HP! Absurd that we try to do this in "real" cars really, racing is for properly prepped cars.

Good call Bill, glad that you (and all of us that have participated) have been "protected". Anxious to hear what you are going to do.

Greg, about two years ago, after I had worn out two sets of front bearings at $700 a set, I figured out tracking the charger was much more intense on it than driving it. Rotors, pads,rearends, clutches, tires, people just don't realize how fast all those need maintenance. The real truth here is if you are going to track, you need a track car. I think we need to put the TOURING back in Protouring and build racecars if that is our goal.

[Bryan O]

I think we need to put the TOURING back in Protouring...

^^^

More of these: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=40463&highlight=Scottsdale

[GregWeld]

Oh man -- you hit it right on the head….


Oh wait!!! Is that why I have hot rods AND track cars…


Boy am I dumb!




Just to be sure. I wouldn't have this combo unless charley talked me into it. And while I will NEVER tell HIM this, I thank him every time I'm on track. I have real 5 point harness and a real roll cage. And real track tires with some grip... And the car was "cheap" - meaning less than a great paint job these days. LOL.

[GrabberGT]

Hey Bill. I like where your head is at on this. Lets get back to the Protouring events and just have fun. Theres plenty of fun to be had with speed limited laps on race courses and autocrosses. If thats not fast enough then there are race events that can be attended. Count me in as a supporting participant if theres ever another event close enough.

[Fluid Power]

I never thought about it in terms of somebody getting hurt, but it did cross my mind when the guys at Hot rod magazine built F-bomb with that crazy stupid twin turbo nelson motor. I was reading and was asking myself, what is the point? So what if you have 1200hp! Crashes just happen a lot faster.

Darren

[James OLC]

Bill,

Great post and as you are more than aware, you don't owe any of us an explanation, you've been doing this for a long time and it's great to have your leadership in the community.


Just stating the obvious...lol Of course most don't want to hear it. Guess that is why some have black balled me for even starting the conversation. Pretty sad.

Im my opinion this "conversation" is more than overdue and anyone who would shut you out from bringing it up has their head in the sand. The elephant has been in the room for a LONG TIME and it was only a matter of time before someone saw it for what it is. There are lots of ways for the ASCS to adapt and most "grass roots" events have taken steps to address safety and experience disparities and frankly, if you don't have the safety equipment or experience then you have no place being on the track on the leading edge. OLOA requires that you document your experience and the organizer can choose to accept your entry or not. SSCC requires graduating safety gear with speed and limited NOOBS to the event to a mandatory half day drivers school and lower speeds - they don't care who you are or what you've done, if you haven't done one of their events you do the school and low speed class or you don't compete. TARGA has a Grand Touring class for folks who lack the required (and substantial) safety gear - same course, slower times/speeds; don't like it? stay home. It can be done and you guys will figure out the framework that works for you.

I haven't been at this for long but I can remember early events where a long sleeved shirt and helmet was considered OK for driving gear and people were complaining about that. Today I won't get on a track without a suit, shoes, gloves, and HANS device and my "cheapest helmet that meets the rules" has been replaced with a lightweight, professional grade piece. Total investment was less than a set of tires and while none of that will keep me from running out of talent, it does increase my odds of being able to cry about it when the damage is done.

I look forward to seeing where you go with this and am happy to help if I can. It's a bummer not to have RTTC in the spring but summer is fine too. Personally I would be happy with ASCS events becoming (very) mini Power Tours with "competition" events in the afternoon before some kind of big ass BBQ with friends in the evening. But that's just me...

[Bill Howell]

Just to be sure. I wouldn't have this combo unless charley talked me into it. And while I will NEVER tell HIM this, I thank him every time I'm on track. I have real 5 point harness and a real roll cage. And real track tires with some grip... And the car was "cheap" - meaning less than a great paint job these days. LOL.

Finally, someone that has the means to do it, gets it and says it.
Sad truth though, most of everyone here has to make a critical decision as to which path they will take since most in the group/hobby/nitch can only afford one car. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
My whole point for this and other posts and threads is exactly this point.
In the past, I have created the myth that your car can do both, simply by saying anything goes. When I did this 6 years ago, it may have been the case. However, hp has gone from 400 to as much as 900, speeds have gotten stupid and safety has taken a back seat.

The choice is yours. There is a big wide world out there, SCCA, IMSA, NASCAR, NHRA, NASA and the list of associations goes on and on.
All I am saying, is that events I promote, no longer does anything go. If safety is your primary goal, if drag racing is your goal, if cruising is your goal autocrossing, road course racing set that goal and build a car that fits your needs. I am saying right here is, a Protouring car can not by nature do it ALL. Therefore, at my events, henceforth, Touring will be the focus of fun. I just don't want anyone disappointed when they come and find out touring isn't roadracing, it is touring.

[Bill Howell]

Bill,

Great post and as you are more than aware, you don't owe any of us an explanation, you've been doing this for a long time and it's great to have your leadership in the community.



Im my opinion this "conversation" is more than overdue and anyone who would shut you out from bringing it up has their head in the sand. The elephant has been in the room for a LONG TIME and it was only a matter of time before someone saw it for what it is. There are lots of ways for the ASCS to adapt and most "grass roots" events have taken steps to address safety and experience disparities and frankly, if you don't have the safety equipment or experience then you have no place being on the track on the leading edge. OLOA requires that you document your experience and the organizer can choose to accept your entry or not. SSCC requires graduating safety gear with speed and limited NOOBS to the event to a mandatory half day drivers school and lower speeds - they don't care who you are or what you've done, if you haven't done one of their events you do the school and low speed class or you don't compete. TARGA has a Grand Touring class for folks who lack the required (and substantial) safety gear - same course, slower times/speeds; don't like it? stay home. It can be done and you guys will figure out the framework that works for you.

I haven't been at this for long but I can remember early events where a long sleeved shirt and helmet was considered OK for driving gear and people were complaining about that. Today I won't get on a track without a suit, shoes, gloves, and HANS device and my "cheapest helmet that meets the rules" has been replaced with a lightweight, professional grade piece. Total investment was less than a set of tires and while none of that will keep me from running out of talent, it does increase my odds of being able to cry about it when the damage is done.

I look forward to seeing where you go with this and am happy to help if I can. It's a bummer not to have RTTC in the spring but summer is fine too. Personally I would be happy with ASCS events becoming (very) mini Power Tours with "competition" events in the afternoon before some kind of big ass BBQ with friends in the evening. But that's just me...

Thanks James, and you are so right with the last part of your post. As I said in my last post, and I know it is things people don't like or maybe want to hear, but for too long now, we have fooled ourselves into thinking one car can be an antique, daily driver, a cool ride AND a RACE CAR. It simply can't and do all well. At this point, I am not sure what is our ultimate answer, and until we get a handle on it, I am not willing to take the risk. BBQs, cruises with maybe an autocross was the events that I remember as fun anyway. No need to reinvent the wheel or make another race series, lets get back to having fun. :cheers:

[srh3trinity]

I think for me, the fact that this discussion is coming up is a relief. I have been building my car slowly over the years. When I started following these sites people were just getting into autox and over the last year or so I have noticed a push towards open track and an increasing competitive spirit along with a push for more and more HP with each passing build. It was starting to bum me out that these events and forums were heading that direction. For a first timer, it would be very daunting. I think there is plenty of room for the 10/10ths guys and I would love to go watch some of their events, but for the majority, an event with a balance of fun, instruction and safety is going to be more attractive.

[intocarss]

Just to be sure. I wouldn't have this combo unless charley talked me into it. And while I will NEVER tell HIM this, I thank him every time I'm on track. I have real 5 point harness and a real roll cage. And real track tires with some grip... And the car was "cheap" - meaning less than a great paint job these days. LOL.That's why I bought a race car, well race truck

[DFRESH]

I'm in for whatever you guys decide Bill. I am bummed we won't have the chance to get together in Spring with the whole gang---I am more disappointed by that than I am by missing some road course action.

As long as I can drive my car, along with a bunch of others doing the same, and have a good time doing it then I will be happy. It's about the people for me. A little friendly competition is always a welcomed thing in this hobby, and I am with you and the others----as long as it is safe for everyone involved. I know what it's like to go over 170--but that's been in the drag car--with a full halo cage, fire suppression, fire suit, shoes, main shut off switch, tip over switches that go cold if the car goes on its lid, etc. That's with an emergency crew standing by and fire extinguishers lining the track wall. The PT car has nothing except 4 point seatbelts, so I get what you are saying and the concern--and I know it's valid. After racing for many years, I've seen more than my fair share of unbelievable events happen at the track. Fire is the worst possible scenario in my opinion--and can happen from the stupidest things. Speed and driver inexperience will bring about bent up stuff for sure. Someone already said it---it's not if, but when. To keep doing the road courses, once I get my new stuff in the car (more power) it will have to have at least a 6 point and a fire suppression system along with the cut off switch. It's crazy to not have that stuff if you are planning on road coursing the car--unless there is a way to limit the speed to something safe. Just my opinion Hope to hear from you soon on the new venue.

Doug

[Payton King]

My new car is more race car than anything else. I also know that a NASA sponsored track day is more suitable for what I am building than showing up to one of your or anyone else's events and trying to run on street tires.

I will still come to your events regardless of what you do to your format. Like has been stated before, I come for the people and the socializing after the event..and the occasional slash of apple pie.

Looking forward to your event schedule.

[BMR Sales]

A proper driver attire ---- Yes that would be me in my Mustang --- on the cover…



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/file-3.jpg.html)





Thanks to JerrDawg for making up this cover - not sure how he did it but it's pretty cool!!

Is your Suit Un-Zipped? That is not proper attire if it is!

[mfain]

Bill,

I absolutely agree with your concerns. But, there are pro-touring events where the car must be registered and driven to the event (making it a street car) where is must run 150+ mph on the road course to be competitive -- no real safety equipment "required". Couple that with the fact that a bunch of stock street cars (Z06, ZR1, Viper, GTR) are runiing the same speeds on the same tracks. Competition with 650 H.P. stockers is probably driving some of the horsepower race. A third issue, and my biggest concern is the fabricated suspensions and drive trains using a bunch of inferior "offshore" built parts that are being subjected to tremendous loads, especially in fairly heavy pro-touring cars. I built my streetable car with three rule books in my hand to cover things like roll cage, fuel cell, fire supression, firewalls, etc. I guess that makes it a race car. At the very least I get chided about it not being pro-touring, but I think that's because it doesn't have a radio and air. Since we're not running for points or dollars, I would like to be able to attend fast track days without the hassle of annual and/or comprehensive (and sometimes capricious) event tech inspections, often based on ever-changing rules. I still think we need checks and balances on quality/adaquacy of parts, tires, and at least roll-over, fire, and restraint protection. It's a fine line.

Pappy

[Chad-1stGen]

The safety comments added here have been good. But there is a huge difference in the "vibe" or feel at a RTTC type event vs an average track day. Both good and bad.

The good is so many cool like minded people and cars to hang out with.

The bad (relative to safety) is that by having a "winner" at a pro-touring event you increase the focus on competition and away from just having fun. At an average track day there is no "winner" and many of the folks won't even have paid extra for the transponder to even know their times. They just want to go out and have fun on a track. Yeah it is still dangerous and there can be very serious accidents but I don't see people pushing nearly as hard either.

[SSLance]

The safety comments added here have been good. But there is a huge difference in the "vibe" or feel at a RTTC type event vs an average track day. Both good and bad.

The good is so many cool like minded people and cars to hang out with.

The bad (relative to safety) is that by having a "winner" at a pro-touring event you increase the focus on competition and away from just having fun. At an average track day there is no "winner" and many of the folks won't even have paid extra for the transponder to even know their times. They just want to go out and have fun on a track. Yeah it is still dangerous and there can be very serious accidents but I don't see people pushing nearly as hard either.

You know, that is a GREAT point. At the NASA HPDE events, first off we are separated into run groups with other cars with our same experience level and we have instructors in the cars with us...but beyond that, there are no times kept.

We are all out there just driving...and the instructors in the car make sure that we stay within our abilities. Never once have I felt like I needed to go faster...for any reason other than I just wanted to. And I still had a complete blast.

Might be something to think about for future events...

[Bill Howell]

You know, that is a GREAT point. At the NASA HPDE events, first off we are separated into run groups with other cars with our same experience level and we have instructors in the cars with us...but beyond that, there are no times kept.

We are all out there just driving...and the instructors in the car make sure that we stay within our abilities. Never once have I felt like I needed to go faster...for any reason other than I just wanted to. And I still had a complete blast.

Might be something to think about for future events...

I think you will find that my idea of rules fit right into this post. I think there is room for a touch of all things mentioned. What you are going to see with my rule changes is my attempt to accommodate as many elements you just mentioned as possible, with SAFETY and fun being the focus and reasoning for those rules, not just copy and paste someone else or some other sanctioning bodies rules. The very nature of our build style means Protouring cars, even if they were all built alike, do not really fit into any group that is presently out there. As I recall, we were and still are streetcars that run on a track from time to time, not racecars with tags. Some may have moved over that line and I have a plan for that too. The KEY here is this, I have a line in the sand now and it is very easy to determine what side of that line your car fits. Giving that and not much more right now, know that EVERYONE soon will know the rules and what the new game is. They will simply have to see what those divisions are and either choose where they fit, or if they think maybe they don't fit any and decide not to play anymore in the ASCS sandbox. That is certainly the risk I will take, given the importance to fix this. There are so many other options out there, no one program fits all needs, I am good with that.
Regardless of the emails and calls I have gotten today, trust me, I am not a MADMAN yet!!! lol

[onevoice]

This is a TRAINWRECK just looking for a place to happen..

Thanks for taking a stand Bill. The vast majority of people who have done real racing are 100% behind you.

Real racing is dangerous enough without doing it with the equivalent of 1965 safety equipment, and the comprises of being street legal.

I have been saying for years that it is cheaper, faster, and safer to do your racing in a real race car instead of a street car.

[TheJDMan]

The very definition of Pro-Touring is that you take an old muscle car and improve the power, handeling and braking to the point it compares with modern sports cars. I think it is pretty safe to say we have been doing that almost without a second thought.

Thankfully Ron and Bill are turning the attention to the overlooked subject of building safety into our cars. I too feel that the safety equipment of our cars needs some serious attention and I am following the safety threads closely to make sure my car is safe. But I would like to see this safety discussion go one step further and include the subject of Driver Training on the level of a Bondurant or Skip Barber.

I would like to see events which include some serious performance Driver Training classes offered by experienced instructiors where the students could take the class driving their personal vehicle. I doubt anyone would argue the benefit of a Bonderant or Barber level driving class, but not everyone can easily afford the price. I think offering a performance Driving School event would attract a huge number of participants.

[Bad94]

Bill I fully understand what you are saying.

For people looking for a "class/school" take a look at www.1010thsmotorsports.com

[Matt@BOS]

We talk a lot about putting in cone chicanes and taking steps to keep speeds down in an attempt to keep things safer, as I think we should, but the one thing I'm more curious about is how well labelled the tracks are in regard to braking zones. None of the events I've attended have had any cones laid out for braking distances, which is something you tend to find at most other track events and every driving school I've ever attended. In my opinion every one of the pro touring events should have clear braking distance indicators because the majority of drivers have never driven the track and won't be able to memorize each corner after 5 parade laps. There are points and bragging rights associated with setting a fast time. Everyone wants to get the most out of their car that they feel they're capable of. I've never seen anyone drive without making a mistake at some point during the weekend, and that goes back to why safety has been a big concern, but I say there is more to track safety than just safety equipment and we should work creating the safest overall environment that provides the largest margin for error so that drivers hopefully never even come close to having to rely on their safety equipment.

[LS7 Z/28]

We talk a lot about putting in cone chicanes and taking steps to keep speeds down in an attempt to keep thigs safer, as I think we should, but the one thing I'm more curious about is how well labelled the tracks are in regard to braking zones. None of the events I've attended have had any cones laid out for braking distances, which is something you tend to find at most other track events and every driving school I've ever attended. In my opinion every one of the pro touring events should have clear braking distance indicators because the majority of drivers have never driven the track and won't be able to memorize each corner after 5 parade laps. There are points and bragging rights associated with setting a fast time. Everyone wants to get the most out of their car that they feel they're capable of. I've never seen anyone drive without making a mistake at some point during the weekend, and that goes back to why safety has been a big concern, but I say there is more to track safety than just safety equipment and we should work creating the safest overall environment that provides the largest margin for error so that drivers hopefully never even come close to having to rely on their safety equipment.

Great post Matt, I think the braking zone labeling idea is something that should have been done a long time ago at most of these big time events. I don't have much road course experience and I would certainly feel a lot better about it if each turn was labeled. Memorizing the track is something I have a hard enough time doing in a simulator, let alone on a real course at speed.

On the other hand, Bill I think you have made a great point about the dangers of the big courses and your series is wise to be ahead of the curve. This new USCA is honestly going to be pushing it's luck allowing regular guys to show up with no rollcage, regular factory belts, stock seats and just say have at it.. :bang: It just makes no sense.

Will they be running the full Lemans course at Daytona? Anybody know, because that is going to be quite wicked heading into the Tri-Oval.

[DaleTx]

Bill… I think it’s great that you and Ron have raised the issue of safety for pro-touring cars running on road courses. I started out driving my pro-touring car on road courses by joining a local sports car club, and then entering HPDE (high performance driver education) events. The car club that I joined requires that first time drivers complete 2 hours of classroom training before being allowed to drive on the road course… then they are limited to 85 MPH on the track.

Also... they are required to have a certified instructor ride along for the first couple of events. When a driver has gained experience, and prove they can drive safely on the track, then they are issued a certificate of completion for driver education and allowed to “Solo” on the road course. I have been running with this club for several years and have never seen anyone get hurt or have a bad accident. I would recommend for those interested to get on the track, to seek out a local sports car club and run some HPDE events to get the basics.

Most of the guys that are regulars at the HPDE events typically have installed 4 point roll bars, and 5 point seat belts at a minimum, and wear extra protective gear. I plan to make more safety improvements on my car before next season from what I have learned here recently. Thanks again for raising the safety awareness level.

How to put on a safe event is a tough issue for sure. It seems like there might need to be different classes based on car set up, safety features, and driver experience. It's a great sport and I hope to see it continue to grow. I look forward to seeing what you come up with for rules.

:cheers:

[ironworks]

Bill, I'm glad to see you stand up and do the right thing even if it does not put money in your pocket. I have been saying this for a while that Pro-touring was going to end up being a feeder circuit into real racing arenas. All these cars are getting lighter and lighter and people are getting more and more horsepower. But when the rulebook will allow you to race a track at race speeds in a long sleeve shirt and an open face helmet at some point this is going to haunt someone.

The guys with AC and power windows are the first to point out a guy that has the same horsepower and 300 less lbs as that is not a street car. Well the guy drove it here on the highway and I guess he is just tougher then you because he says he does not need AC. But it is still a street car, just like a rigid chopper is still a motorcycle even if it is hard to drive.

These events need to be fun. Most people are not going to be able to compete with some of these people who compete in these events. Some are national autocross champions a few times over. Not to say the next champion cannot be born, but some of these guys and girls are really really good, Let's be realistic.

Something to consider is doing events that are designed for different skill levels and you cannot move up until you master the lower slower events and have a capable car.

As an example I have been looking at doing some desert racing with a friend and customer of mine. I went and helped pit crew a few weeks ago and had a great time and would love to just jump right in and race the Best In The Desert races or Baja 1000 right off but first off you have to have a safe and capable car like this.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/IMG_20131212_215730.jpg (http://s616.photobucket.com/user/ironworksspeed/media/IMG_20131212_215730.jpg.html)

But just like Pro-touring in order to do that your going to take all the family function out of it. Or in this case the street car out of it. I still want to be able to take it to the sand and use it with my family for fun on the weekends. But the springs are set up for speed through the whoopps which makes it no fun unless your hauling ass. Plus climbing over the door bars and straping into 5 point harness's gets old but you have to wear it or risk banging your head on the roll cage and getting metal plates in your head like Kenny Davis. So like Greg said then you end up having multiple cars one for going down the highway and one for Going warp speed at Laguna. The problem is most of us cannot afford both, Heck we can barely afford one.

I think so great ideas would be to also just get out of our street cars and spend some weekends driving other stuff. Like setting up large groups that go to go kart schools, or other events where the car is provided and the environment is controlled. Use these things to gain skills to move up the ladder. You will never be a good driver if you can only drive one thing. You have to learn to adapt.

[71RS/SS396]

We talk a lot about putting in cone chicanes and taking steps to keep speeds down in an attempt to keep things safer, as I think we should, but the one thing I'm more curious about is how well labelled the tracks are in regard to braking zones. None of the events I've attended have had any cones laid out for braking distances, which is something you tend to find at most other track events and every driving school I've ever attended. In my opinion every one of the pro touring events should have clear braking distance indicators because the majority of drivers have never driven the track and won't be able to memorize each corner after 5 parade laps. There are points and bragging rights associated with setting a fast time. Everyone wants to get the most out of their car that they feel they're capable of. I've never seen anyone drive without making a mistake at some point during the weekend, and that goes back to why safety has been a big concern, but I say there is more to track safety than just safety equipment and we should work creating the safest overall environment that provides the largest margin for error so that drivers hopefully never even come close to having to rely on their safety equipment.

Matt, I think RTTC is at unique location and that's why there's no brake markers (not that there shouldn't be). I've been to every other ASCS event and it's been at a real road course except RTTH which has no road course part of the event so there's been brake markers.

[Matt@BOS]

Matt, I think RTTC is at unique location and that's why there's no brake markers (not that there shouldn't be). I've been to every other ASCS event and it's been at a real road course except RTTH which has no road course part of the event so there's been brake markers.

I figured some of them had to, but I wasn't sure. RTTC didn't, which surprised me a little, but I figured it was a bit of an anomaly since it was set up on an old air field. What surprised me though was that all of the cones around the 2.3 mile track at Spring Mountain were removed when we ran Optima. If you were to go there on any given day they would have all of the "helper" reference points set up unless they were running part of their level three advanced class. I certainly hope that won't be the norm at the USCA events but I had to start wondering.