Bought a 69 Now Need Swap Advice

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I finally found a decent 69 RS Camaro and decided to pull the trigger. It could use some body work in the future but it looks to me like someone found a decent original car, bondo'd a few places and slathered black paint on it. The floors are nice and so are the frame rails so I've decided that a LS T56 swap is the first thing on my list. Future plans include a Ridetech suspension but the swap should maximize bang for the buck until I save enough for body work, suspension and forced induction. I want 500-650 RWHP when all is said and done.

Focusing on "bang for the buck" and seeing that black Friday/cyber Monday are upon us I'd love it if you could all give me some advice on which parts to buy and where to get them.

First thing I'm thinking about is the fuel system. I'd like to do flex fuel or at least be able to switch to an E85 tune in the future. I found this today from a post on this forum and with a 15% discount it seems pretty reasonable but I'm not sure if it will coincide with my goals

http://www.palmettoperformance.com/aeromotive-fuel-tanks.html

Enough pump? E85 OK?

I'm also going to need a fuel pressure regulator and I've heard some Corvette model is the way to go?

Which engine mounts seem to be the way to go at the moment? There are so many options in that department. Is 1" back the way to go or not? I'm going to stick with the stock subframe even in the future and the car currently has power steering and a 350 engine.

I'll need to switch out my auto trans brake pedal for a manual pedal set and will need a hydraulic clutch master. I'm looking for the best value option for that as well.

A radiator and fans are the last major thing I can think think of at the moment. The radiator in my car is brand new but I don't suppose that will work. Is a 2000 or so F-body one the place to start?

I realize this has been done many times before and I've read threads all over the forums here and elsewhere but some are pretty old and new goodies and deals come along all the time. So basically I'm looking for some advice so I can start shopping today when some deals are ripe for the picking.

Thanks!

[Sieg]

Brakes?

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Brakes?
It already has disc fronts and everything is brand new. I just replaced the wheel bearings a couple of days ago. I know I'll need more brakes later but I think I'll do that with the suspension conversion or when I really start to add horsepower. Unless, there is a relatively inexpensive stockish option in discs for the rear that will work with the original front discs?

For now, I only have enough money to do a stock LSx swap so the engine will probably be less than 400 hp. The stock discs should be fine for next summer at least. When I do upgrade it will probably be with something from KORE3 so that I can still go to the autoparts store for parts.

I did think of something else though. Is there a particular swap harness that people like a lot lately?

[Bsinclair]

i feel the aeromotive pump won't have enough to make your hp goal on e-85. it would be fine on gasoline.

if i was going the e-85 route i would choose a ricks vaporworks tank with the cts-v pumps installed. most of the cts-v guys running e-85 change the injectors to id850's and use the stock pumps. by choosing this pump system you will not run out later when you decide to go to e-85.

on the engine mounts i like the dirty dingo sliders. you can put them anywhere you want..

your radiator will work but you will have to adapt to the different ls radiator hose sizes.

i used a modern vintage harness on mine... the psi harness is also used alot on here

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I know everyone likes pictures so here are some for all of your enjoyment to look at while you're helping me....lOL:headspin: ;P

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

i feel the aeromotive pump won't have enough to make your hp goal on e-85. it would be fine on gasoline.

if i was going the e-85 route i would choose a ricks vaporworks tank with the cts-v pumps installed. most of the cts-v guys running e-85 change the injectors to id850's and use the stock pumps. by choosing this pump system you will not run out later when you decide to go to e-85.

on the engine mounts i like the dirty dingo sliders. you can put them anywhere you want..

your radiator will work but you will have to adapt to the different ls radiator hose sizes.

i used a modern vintage harness on mine... the psi harness is also used alot on here

I hear Rick's tanks are great but that's WAY too expensive for my budget. :waveflag: If the pump in the tank I linked above could be easily upgraded later it's much more budget friendly. I'd make a tank from scratch before I'd pay $1500...now, for under 6 bills, with a pump, I wouldn't bother making one.

Those mounts look pretty good and I'll definitely check those harnesses. Thanks for your advice!

P.S. This is more of a "budget" build if there is such a thing. I don't have the kind of money that it requires to do many of the builds on here. Basically, I sold my daily driver and am using the money to buy and start building this car.

[glassman]

If your on a "budget" with an LS swap the best thing to do is draw it out on paper (all the parts you will need) and be patient. I did this and now its paying dividends, i'm really glad i did it. Despite all the information out there, when doing it on a budget, you will still run into problems, at least i did. My swap ran into the 11k range, but you can do it for closer to 5 or 6k if your good.
My tank i used, new, was sh$t, so i splurged on the Ricks, but there are plenty of mods you can do to your own tank for waaaaaay less $$.

Another suggestion is go with a truck block, there iron short blocks as opposed to aluminum and you save about 2500 in the grand scheme of things.
And there's plenty of GOOD info out there, oof course there's plenty of bad too but most of us here can read through the b.s.

Good luck and keep her slideways.....:G-Dub:

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

If your on a "budget" with an LS swap the best thing to do is draw it out on paper (all the parts you will need) and be patient. I did this and now its paying dividends, i'm really glad i did it. Despite all the information out there, when doing it on a budget, you will still run into problems, at least i did. My swap ran into the 11k range, but you can do it for closer to 5 or 6k if your good.
My tank i used, new, was sh$t, so i splurged on the Ricks, but there are plenty of mods you can do to your own tank for waaaaaay less $$.

Another suggestion is go with a truck block, there iron short blocks as opposed to aluminum and you save about 2500 in the grand scheme of things.
And there's plenty of GOOD info out there, oof course there's plenty of bad too but most of us here can read through the b.s.

Good luck and keep her slideways.....:G-Dub:

Yeah, I've done other swaps, though nothing fuel injected, and I've realized that whatever your first guess is at cost, you might as well double it as you'll run into all kinds of piddly stuff that costs money. I'm hoping for around the 5K-6K mark as you said. I think they key is to avoid any "splurges" that you don't need...haha. $10 here and $20 there add up.

I can afford to be a bit patient. I'd like to get the swap done this winter though if possible....I just figured there'd be deals around this weekend.

I'm fine with an iron block, especially for adding boost later; unfortunately, then you have to buy all of the F-body accessories, intake, oil pan and such which brings the prices pretty close right?

I can fabricate anything I'll need but sometimes it's not worth the time when someone else already figured out everything and you can just buy it and bolt it in.

[Rybar]

I would frequent the forums of LS1tech for a dropout motor and tranny combo. If your on the classifieds there daily you will find a good deal. Try to find a motor most suitable for you. Do you want an LS1, LS3 or LS3 or an iron block LQ4/9 or L92? Get the motor with all the accessories, wire harness and computer. Then start researching fuel tank, motor mounts, headers, radiator and oil pan. Theres other small supporting mods too like fittings, gas pedal, intake pipe etc. I found (with every aspect of my build) that every time you try to cheap out it ends up costing you in the end with crappy parts, workmanship or wanting to improve the area of the car you cheaped out on. So I would really focus on getting the right parts first time around.

Oh and congrats on the purchase.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I would frequent the forums of LS1tech for a dropout motor and tranny combo. If your on the classifieds there daily you will find a good deal. Try to find a motor most suitable for you. Do you want an LS1, LS3 or LS3 or an iron block LQ4/9 or L92? Get the motor with all the accessories, wire harness and computer. Then start researching fuel tank, motor mounts, headers, radiator and oil pan. Theres other small supporting mods too like fittings, gas pedal, intake pipe etc. I found (with every aspect of my build) that every time you try to cheap out it ends up costing you in the end with crappy parts, workmanship or wanting to improve the area of the car you cheaped out on. So I would really focus on getting the right parts first time around.

Does $4850 (shipped to my door) for a complete swap/pullout LS1 and T56 plus all the accessories, harness and ECM sound like a decent deal? 61,000 miles.

I have been watching for parts cars for months, way before I found the '69 but haven't found anything under $6500.

Personally, I'm not too fussy on the motor itself as I can always work on it and upgrade it as I go. It's the accessories, intake and the pan and the peripherals that I'd rather get as a package deal as that stuff can get expensive fast. From what I understand, getting an LS1 is the best way to get the most stuff that actually fits.

[Rybar]

Does $4850 (shipped to my door) for a complete swap/pullout LS1 and T56 plus all the accessories, harness and ECM sound like a decent deal? 61,000 miles.

I have been watching for parts cars for months, way before I found the '69 but haven't found anything under $6500.

Personally, I'm not too fussy on the motor itself as I can always work on it and upgrade it as I go. It's the accessories, intake and the pan and the peripherals that I'd rather get as a package deal as that stuff can get expensive fast. From what I understand, getting an LS1 is the best way to get the most stuff that actually fits.

What year is the motor? Doesn't sound like a killer deal to me. I paid $3800 + shipping waaaaaaay back in '04 or '05 for a pullout 2002 Z28 motor and T56 trans with about 50k. I think you can get a brand new LS3 and T56 for $9-10k range which is what I would go for if you can swing it.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

What year is the motor? Doesn't sound like a killer deal to me. I paid $3800 + shipping waaaaaaay back in '04 or '05 for a pullout 2002 Z28 motor and T56 trans with about 50k. I think you can get a brand new LS3 and T56 for $9-10k range which is what I would go for if you can swing it.

It's a 2002 firebird. Yeah, I don't think it's a steal or anything. Did your pullout come with everything though? Ideally, I'd like to get most of what I need in one shot though it may not be possible.

I can't swing the $9-10K. Right now, I have $5000 left over from the difference of selling my other car. Obviously, it's going to cost me more but after the "bulk purchase" it will be smaller stuff that I can buy as I go which won't hurt as much with my bonus coming and an income tax return. It's a good time of the year to be working on this.

I just paid over $800 for gas to heat my house and garage....now that hurt! Don't want to work on the car without heat though!

[glassman]

thats a pretty fair price. i paid 3200 for an LS1 out of a 42k mile GTO. with acc & harness & computer, so figure your getting a 2000$ tranny on top of that.

So hardware, exhaust, cooling, fuel and your there. Can maybe get it done under 7k...it'll be close though

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

thats a pretty fair price. i paid 3200 for an LS1 out of a 42k mile GTO. with acc & harness & computer, so figure your getting a 2000$ tranny on top of that.

So hardware, exhaust, cooling, fuel and your there. Can maybe get it done under 7k...it'll be close though

Yeah, maybe it's not too bad. I'm trying to price other; more piecemeal, options right now and that price is starting to look better and better. Found another complete car for $6200 but it's got 116k on it. I just don't know if I could part out the rest to make up the difference.

[INTMD8]

Thats a fair price for an LS/T56. They were cheaper and easier to come by a few years ago. Even though the engines themselves are getting older they are in higher demand now.

One thing I'll mention is if you really want to run it flex fuel and you want to use a GM ecm you'll want a newer engine with a 58x reluctor wheel. Then you can use an E38 ecm along with a fuel composition sensor.

Other options are to switch the reluctor wheel and cam gear in the LS1 to run a newer ecm, or use aftermarket engine management with flex fuel capability.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Thats a fair price for an LS/T56. They were cheaper and easier to come by a few years ago. Even though the engines themselves are getting older they are in higher demand now.

One thing I'll mention is if you really want to run it flex fuel and you want to use a GM ecm you'll want a newer engine with a 58x reluctor wheel. Then you can use an E38 ecm along with a fuel composition sensor.

Other options are to switch the reluctor wheel and cam gear in the LS1 to run a newer ecm, or use aftermarket engine management with flex fuel capability.
Are there any good options for an after-market engine management system that will run flex and will work for forced induction (when I have the money to add it). I've looked before and it seems it's hard to get the best of both worlds. I've been interested lately in the Holley dominator with it's self learning but don't know if it would work for this. I'm willing to learn to tune and even bought a book on tuning the ls series of engines but something that's more plug and play would be great.

Thanks for everyones help so far!

[INTMD8]

Big Stuff3 or ProEfi can both do it but my personal preference for something like this is the stock GM controller.

HP tuners has custom speed density operating systems which work excellent for boosted applications.

[67Rally]

You should be able to pick up a complete LQ4 or LQ9, iron block 6.0l for under $2000, plus a T56 trans for under $2000. Better starting point for building power down the road.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

You should be able to pick up a complete LQ4 or LQ9, iron block 6.0l for under $2000, plus a T56 trans for under $2000. Better starting point for building power down the road.

The LQ4 or LQ9; yes. I can get those cheaper than that actually, at least in my neck of the woods. However; it seems to me that by the time I add all the proper accessories, oil pan, intake and misc it becomes more expensive pretty fast. Am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing?

I sure wish the stupid T56's weren't so ridiculously expensive. It's pretty bad when a modern era transmission from a salvage yard is going for more than a date code correct/car matching M22. Does anyone have a source of decent rebuild ones?

[glassman]

What i did on the tranny was picked up an LT1 t-56 (i had a sbc at the time) and 2nd gear was bad (typical on these), so when i did my LS swap, i went too Rockland Gear and ordered their kit to convert. I picked up the tranny for 900, the kit was 400 and the rebuild kit was 700 ish if i remember correctly. I paid for labor which was 700 or so and ended up buying two input shafts (one for the LT which i still have brand new and one for the LS)

So, if you can source an LT (800+/-) the kit for 400+/- and the rebuild kit (it turns the tranny into a magnum) for 1200+/-, you have a very stout tranny and waaaay stronger than a stock LS tranny....

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

What i did on the tranny was picked up an LT1 t-56 (i had a sbc at the time) and 2nd gear was bad (typical on these), so when i did my LS swap, i went too Rockland Gear and ordered their kit to convert. I picked up the tranny for 900, the kit was 400 and the rebuild kit was 700 ish if i remember correctly. I paid for labor which was 700 or so and ended up buying two input shafts (one for the LT which i still have brand new and one for the LS)

So, if you can source an LT (800+/-) the kit for 400+/- and the rebuild kit (it turns the tranny into a magnum) for 1200+/-, you have a very stout tranny and waaaay stronger than a stock LS tranny....

Instead of doing that, if I wanted magnum strength, couldn't I just snag one out of a 2010 + Camaro to get a stronger transmission? Isn't the TR-6060 basically a T-56 magnum? I think I can get one of those with pretty low mileage for a little over 2K. Maybe there are some other problems associated with that swap that I'm unaware of?

[67Rally]

The LQ4 or LQ9; yes. I can get those cheaper than that actually, at least in my neck of the woods. However; it seems to me that by the time I add all the proper accessories, oil pan, intake and misc it becomes more expensive pretty fast. Am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing?

I sure wish the stupid T56's weren't so ridiculously expensive. It's pretty bad when a modern era transmission from a salvage yard is going for more than a date code correct/car matching M22. Does anyone have a source of decent rebuild ones?

I picked up an LQ9, complete with all accessories, harness, pedal, ecu, tac module, etc. for $2k. The LQ4's were running a couple hundred less at the time. A long block would be a lot less, just depends whether you will re-use the accessories. In the end, I sold everything off the LQ9 and bought all new shiny stuff amyways.

I just think the 6.0 is a better starting point, but you have to figure out you end goal, do your research and plan accordingly.

With an LS1, you won't be able to re-use the oil pan unless you modify it anyways. And if I recall, you'll probably have to relocate the alternator or modify the cross member as well.

LS1 is probably easier, but you're a little more limited. Smaller cubes, the heads don't flow as well (both engines respond well to a set of 243's), and the intake is good, but you'll probably want to swap in an LS6 intake once you start doing upgrades anyways.

Just random food for thought.

[redefined]

Instead of doing that, if I wanted magnum strength, couldn't I just snag one out of a 2010 + Camaro to get a stronger transmission? Isn't the TR-6060 basically a T-56 magnum? I think I can get one of those with pretty low mileage for a little over 2K. Maybe there are some other problems associated with that swap that I'm unaware of?

A lot of the guys seem to like the 56 better than the 6060. From what I've heard the 6060 is longer, which means you have to re-cut a hole for your shifter in your transmission tunnel. I could be wrong here, but that's what I was told. On the same note from someone else I was told you can place the shifter wherever, sooooooooo who knows?

As to why the T-56 seems to be more popular than the 6060, I'm not sure. Some say it has issues with power, but there are tons of modern day cars that came with the 6060 and are putting down some nice numbers. Maybe someone can chime in with the details on this. :EmoteClueless:

[jeremy30thz]

I would recommend finding a engine and trans before you buy anything else. Take the time to write a list of things like someone else said so you can have a written plan to go by and actually stick to that plan. As far as motor mounts I would recommend the Trans-Dap 4575 1" setback plates and the Z28 style frame stands, this setup puts your engine as low as it can go in the frame and back as close to the firewall as you can get it. I would also recommend either the Holley or Mast oil pan to fit in your stock subframe and Stainless Works headers and exhaust and they have a specific exhaust system to fit the Ridetech rear suspension system. Anything I can help with just ask

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Found a complete pull-out from a 04 GTO for $4200.

Anything special that would make this a worse swap than a camaro/firebird ls1 besides having to change the shifter location?

[glassman]

Found a complete pull-out from a 04 GTO for $4200.

Anything special that would make this a worse swap than a camaro/firebird ls1 besides having to change the shifter location?

The accessory's mount. the alternator is too low for our camaros, will hit the linkage. I got an 04 out of a GTO too, engine only. Had the tranny. Effin kick a$$ engine though, mine supposedly had 42k miles on it. When we changed to the f body oil pan, sure didnt look like 42k to me. oh well, she runs FAST. Money well spent. I didnt have to move my shifter, course mines a 2nd gen. Not sure now that i think about it, how your accessory's will interfere.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

The accessory's mount. the alternator is too low for our camaros, will hit the linkage. I got an 04 out of a GTO too, engine only. Had the tranny. Effin kick a$$ engine though, mine supposedly had 42k miles on it. When we changed to the f body oil pan, sure didnt look like 42k to me. oh well, she runs FAST. Money well spent. I didnt have to move my shifter, course mines a 2nd gen. Not sure now that i think about it, how your accessory's will interfere.

Well, I pulled the trigger on it. I may have been reading something about swapping the transmission into a 2000 f body when they said the shifter was too far back which might not be a problem for my 1st Gen. Plus I just moved my drivers seat back 3 inches anyway. If the shifter is back a bit it will probably be comfortable.

Mine is rear steer so I maybe the alt won't be an issue? I did call Kwik Performance about accessories and options before I decided to go for it. He thought it would work fine except I'd need his AC bracket when I get that far.

Evidently the GTO transmission is preferred over the f body as it has the better synchros but I guess I'll find out.

Next is gas pedal, throttle cable, clutch pedal assembly, clutch master mounting and whatever the heck I'm going to get for engine mounts. Seems like everyone recommends different mounts. Maybe I should just Fab my own? Also seriously considering making my own transmission crossmember and mount. I'm thinking about doing the quicker ratio steering box while I'm in there as well.

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Updates!

:G-Dub:

The engine/transmission should show up Monday. I went ahead and ordered the new Holley 302-2 pan since the GTO pan won't work and I'd probably end up modifying an F-body one anyway. I have no clue if the GTO clutch master will work but he's including it in the deal so we'll see what happens there. Along the same lines I went ahead and ordered the factory manual clutch pedal/brake pedal assembly as mine is an automatic with a console shift at the moment.

I think next I'll have to figure out which motor mounts to use and what headers they may fit with if (and a big if) I decide to run headers currently. I may just stick with manifolds for now if they'll fit but I'd like mounts that I can put heads on later.

Rebuilt my drivers side door hinge last night so I've got that going for me.
I've also ordered the factory assembly manual and fischer body manual so I've got them handy.

[Ron in SoCal]

Congrats O'beer-wan :cheers:

Now start a build thread! :idea:

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Congrats O'beer-wan :cheers:

Now start a build thread! :idea:

I don't know Ron.... I'm afraid that if I start a build thread my car will take me years and years to complete. :innocent:

[Ron in SoCal]

I don't know Ron.... I'm afraid that if I start a build thread my car will take me years and years to complete. :innocent:

And with sarcasm like that...you fit right in here :lol:

[Pacific Fabrication]

Hey OBeer-WAN-Kenobi if you need any help with the swap let us know. We specialize in LS swaps.

[67Rally]

Well, I pulled the trigger on it. I may have been reading something about swapping the transmission into a 2000 f body when they said the shifter was too far back which might not be a problem for my 1st Gen. Plus I just moved my drivers seat back 3 inches anyway. If the shifter is back a bit it will probably be comfortable.

Mine is rear steer so I maybe the alt won't be an issue? I did call Kwik Performance about accessories and options before I decided to go for it. He thought it would work fine except I'd need his AC bracket when I get that far.

Evidently the GTO transmission is preferred over the f body as it has the better synchros but I guess I'll find out.

Next is gas pedal, throttle cable, clutch pedal assembly, clutch master mounting and whatever the heck I'm going to get for engine mounts. Seems like everyone recommends different mounts. Maybe I should just Fab my own? Also seriously considering making my own transmission crossmember and mount. I'm thinking about doing the quicker ratio steering box while I'm in there as well.

I have the GTO T56 in my '67. It does have better synchros than the Fbody's. The gearing is a little different as well. GTO is 2.97,2.07,1.43,1.0,.84,.56. F-body is 2.66,1.78,1.30,1.0,.74,.50.

I bought an aftermarket shifter for the GTO T56 that relocates it to the F-body position. You will still need to enlarge the shifter hole 1-2" back from the stock position.

I think the alt location may interfere with your subframe. You may have to relocate it, or notch the frame.

[MaxHarvard]

I can recommend a book to help ;)

LS Swaps into first and Second Gens (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1613250312/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d5_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0GHP6JE86SF5YP21FCKG&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1630072202&pf_rd_i=507846)

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Thanks again guys for your help! I should be receiving the engine, transmission and associated wiring today.

My next dilemma is engine mount choice so I'll be perusing the forums today to try to decide which ones to get. ATM, I'm leaning towards the dingo adjustables as they would allow a greater degree of freedom I in case of headers or what have you.

[jeremy30thz]

Stainless Works headers with the frame stands and transdapt plates I recommended in my other post fit perfectly

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

Stainless Works headers with the frame stands and transdapt plates I recommended in my other post fit perfectly

I'm looking for something a little less pricey. The Stainless Works headers look really nice but they aren't in the budget for now. I'd like to be under $600 for headers though that may be a pipe dream.


Something showed up today! :ups:


I guess I'll have to re size my pictures.....anyway, the motor and trans are here!

[DaleTx]

My next dilemma is engine mount choice so I'll be perusing the forums today to try to decide which ones to get. ATM, I'm leaning towards the dingo adjustables as they would allow a greater degree of freedom I in case of headers or what have you.

The Dingo adjustable mounts are nice, and they have a good range of adjustment. They came with the kit when I ordered my Kooks headers. However... I could not use the Dingo's because they interfered with my dry sump pump.

Hooker makes some nice engine mounts. They have different offsets, stock position, 1/2" forward, 1-1/4" forward, and 3" forward. I ended up using the Hooker 1/2" forward mounts and this put the engine very close to the firewall on the passenger side.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hok-12624hkr/overview/

:cheers:

[OBeer-WAN-Kenobi]

I went with the transdapt stock position mounts but it looks like I should probably get some different frame stands. Mine are the 350/302 stands and they are too narrow to fit the rubber mount, without liberal use of washers as spacers anyway. Also, I know they are a bit lower than the 327 mounts. My stands are the ones recommended above but I'm worried about how much I will need to notch the frame for alt and A/C.

I have NOT test fit this yet, so maybe I should before getting too carried away but I'm just trying to think ahead.