Gen 2 Camaro Control Arm choice

[gerno]

In another thread I've shown details of the Speedtech TA rear I'm installing on my 72 Camaro. I'm also going to add the Speedtech Chicane front coilover mount in the coming week or so. I have yet to order up the coil overs themselves since I need to get the mount install and measure the car at ride height to order the correct ones. Since I'm doing all of this I figure I might as well look into changing the control arms as well. I currently have PTFB uppers with tall ball joints. Lowers are factory that have been boxed and the bushings are Delrin. I try to track the car as much as possible and have already spent too much money so I want to be sure I get it all right this time.

Here are the reasons I am thinking to change the arms.
1. Better geometry available?
2. Tire clearance - Currently have 245/275 tire combo and want to eventually move to a 275/315 combo.
3. Ease to inspect suspension components or adj shock/spring setup.
4. LCA bump stop clearance. I like the car lower and there is not too much LCA/frame clearance.

Can anyone provide recommendations on UCA/LCA setup that would be better suited than what I currently have?

[Rick D]

Just a thought but why not go with SpeedTech control arm??? They make ALL their parts to work together. Just makes sense to me.

[gerno]

I am thinking about the Speedtech Arms but want to be sure I'm not limiting myself in any way with regards to other manufactures.

I've been told the Speedtech arms along with their sway bar will fit up to a 285 tire which is great. My concern is they always push to use the AFX spindle and I don't want to do that mainly due to cost. I was hoping to use the factory spindle without losing performance. I'm already way over my budget as is.

[Rick D]

:rofl: way over budget :rofl: tell me about it!!!!

I just think with using their TA setup it would work best with their control arms. If you think about it, DSE's control arms were designed around their rear setup, Ride Techs around theirs. You my be giving up something going with the Speed Tech control arms but you my not see the benefit of the other control arm because now they do not work 100% with your rear TA suspension? At least that's my thinking? There are way smarter guys on here when it comes to suspension then me that's for sure!!

I'm very interested in hearing what comes out of this because I'm looking for ideas for my suspension on my 2nd gen as well! :knokwood:

[Rod P]

:confused59: That Guy had a Budget:lmao:

[Blake Foster]

I am thinking about the Speedtech Arms but want to be sure I'm not limiting myself in any way with regards to other manufactures.

I've been told the Speedtech arms along with their sway bar will fit up to a 285 tire which is great. My concern is they always push to use the AFX spindle and I don't want to do that mainly due to cost. I was hoping to use the factory spindle without losing performance. I'm already way over my budget as is.

We don't always push the AFX spindle, But if you are looking for the best combination of geometry and fit, then that is the system I would recommend. If your on a budget then I understand and you will have to compromise on something, either wheel tire fitment and or geometry.
With the factory spindle and our "standard" upper control arm you can run up to a 9" rim (depending on diameter) and a 265 tire would be safe if you want to run the 10" rim and 285 tire then the high clearance upper control arm and sway bar would be the way to go, only problem is the high clearance upper control arm only works with the AFX spindle as a "SYSTEM" and unfortunately that is the way it is. it like saying can I use the DSE sub frame with Roadster shop control arms?? the steering arm and all the additional parts work together not separately. hope that helps.
Thanks for purchasing Speedtech parts.

[Rick D]

Blake, so for a 2nd gen you make the high clearance control arms? So what does that package consist of? And how much for the system? PM is fine on price. Sorry for the high jack Gerno!:_paranoid

[gerno]

Blake - Thanks for chiming in. Can you clarify the geometry difference in the high clearance/AFX combo and the standard speedtech control arm with a factory spindle? I've seen mention of bumpsteer realignment with the AFX and of course the wheel fitment but any additional details would be appreciated.

[Blake Foster]

Blake - Thanks for chiming in. Can you clarify the geometry difference in the high clearance/AFX combo and the standard speedtech control arm with a factory spindle? I've seen mention of bumpsteer realignment with the AFX and of course the wheel fitment but any additional details would be appreciated.

So the High clearance uca was designed to work ONLY with the AFX spindle. and the spindle ONLY works on a second gen with the High clearance UCA.
The king pin angle on the AFX is 8 deg and the factory second gen is 10 so the arm length is critical.
this
70-81 Street Fighter package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=53/category_id=36/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd53.htm)
Is the full system that we spent a lot of time working on to get the geometry correct.
The bump steer at 2" droop is .01" out and at 2" compression it is .010 in
so total to change in 4" of travel is .02" the camber with a static setting of -.5 deg at 2" droop moves to -1 deg and at 2" comp -2deg and continues to go more neg as the comp increases.
This is all achieved by moving all the components around the pitman arm, idler arm , steering arm all have been moved to get these numbers. and only by using all the parts can this be achieved. now you don't need the steering box. or the coil overs but everything else is required to make it work. I do not have the stock numbers for you sorry but safe to say nothing like these.

[gerno]

Blake - Based on the data you provided and comparing to some information I found from David Pozzi when searching some other threads I'm now very interested in the AFX/High clearance setup and am working to get a quote. Based on my goals for the car this front upgrade seems like a solution I need to address now before I get the other components. Unfortunately my bank is really really going to hate me because it seems the brakes needed for the spindles will not fit my current wheels. What is the typical 18" wheel setup you guys run with a factory frame and a 275-285 tire?

[JKnight]

Unfortunately my bank is really really going to hate me because it seems the brakes needed for the spindles will not fit my current wheels.

In addition to the brakes necessitating the need for larger wheels, there are some issues with the tie rod interfering with the inside of the wheel, which the larger wheel diameter helps to alleviate. What are the specs on the wheels you have now? That will help Blake/Tobin/others to be able to make recommendations.

[gerno]

I know my wheels won't fit the brakes I want to use. You make good points about the other possible issues. This is the reason I'm hoping Blake can provide some known good sizings based on other projects they have built. Looks like I'm going to bite the bullet and get new wheels/tires while I'm blowing the rest of my money :G-Dub:

[JKnight]

You won't necessarily have to, I just want you to know about the things you'll have to measure/analyze.

Tobin at Kore3 does a hybrid C5 brake setup with slightly smaller diameter rotors that will fit in 17" wheels I believe. But, if you're going to do a 285 front tire, you're going to end up needing wheels wide enough to hold them. With 9"+ wide wheels, I believe they'll interfere with the tie-rod unless you're using wheels with a lot of negative offset.

You can refer to the OneLap Camaro thread to see how David P. had to modify the steering arms extensively to work around this issue. Actually, he used the speedtech arms as well, so if you haven't read through that thread, you really should.

[gerno]

I'll check out the info from David. I'm currently running the factory spindle with the C5 brakes and don't have an issue with clearance. The 6 piston Wilwood calipers stick out ~.6" further than the C5's.

[JKnight]

Where does Wilwood factor into this? Your C5 brakes will bolt directly to the AFX spindle, that's one of its best selling points. So if your wheels clear your brakes now, they should clear after the spindle change to AFX.

[gerno]

The Wilwoods have to do with matching the rear 4 piston Dynapro 12.19" rear brakes I just put on the car. I was trying to keep the brakes balanced front and rear. You make a good point about the brakes on the AFX so I called Wilwood to confirm the front/rear caliper balance with the C5's. While it won't be ideal it seems like I can get away with my current front brakes while using the proportioning valve to dial it out. As of now I think I'm going to order up the high clearance/AFX setup from Speedtech and leave the current brakes/wheels. Who knows how I'll feel by Monday when I can order it up.....I feel like I'm losing my mind trying to figure all this out.

[Blake Foster]

The Wilwoods have to do with matching the rear 4 piston Dynapro 12.19" rear brakes I just put on the car. I was trying to keep the brakes balanced front and rear. You make a good point about the brakes on the AFX so I called Wilwood to confirm the front/rear caliper balance with the C5's. While it won't be ideal it seems like I can get away with my current front brakes while using the proportioning valve to dial it out. As of now I think I'm going to order up the high clearance/AFX setup from Speedtech and leave the current brakes/wheels. Who knows how I'll feel by Monday when I can order it up.....I feel like I'm losing my mind trying to figure all this out.

don't over think it!!
just pick up the phone........... lol :headspin:

[gerno]

I have to over think it, my bank account is already screaming at me. Luckily (or maybe not) I don't have a wife or kids and my dog is very forgiving of my car addiction. I image by EOW I'll be ordering everything including front suspension, brakes and new wheels/tires.....

I spoke with Jay on Friday about some more of the details related to the front suspension. It was late in the day and he wanted to go home but he still took time to listen to me and help.

[Blake Foster]

I have to over think it, my bank account is already screaming at me. Luckily (or maybe not) I don't have a wife or kids and my dog is very forgiving of my car addiction. I image by EOW I'll be ordering everything including front suspension, brakes and new wheels/tires.....

I spoke with Jay on Friday about some more of the details related to the front suspension. It was late in the day and he wanted to go home but he still took time to listen to me and help.

I was just giving you a hard time.

[gerno]

I know you were, its all good.

Looks like I'm most likely going to bite the bullet and just buy everything including arms, spindle, brakes and wheels. This assumes there are no huge surprises when I get the cost for the front setup. I'm waiting for Jay to send over the cost with the necessary idler and pitman arms for the front with the high clearance/AFX setup.

Now comes step 2 of pain....deciding on a new set up wheels to fit the new front brakes.... Thinking either CCW LM20's or KWC 015's with either a satin grey or satin bronze/gold finish on the face and polished hoops. I guess there are worse issues to have in life. :bang::G-Dub:

Blake - You should make it easier on me and offer up a set of Forgelines for the CCW/KWC cost :poke:

[The T-man]

I have a set of Speedtech uppers NIB
if you/ anyone wants them I'd sell

[gerno]

I'm interested. Are they the high clearance arms? Do you have any other parts? I'm looking to purchase the Speedtech parts today if I can get the parts list/pricing confirmed.

[gerno]

I'll be placing an order today to Kim at MCB for the Speedtech parts along with a 13" Wilwood brake kit. My buddy is purchasing all my old parts so I can better justify spending the money. I found this article that helped with my decision.

http://www.camaroperformers.com/camaro-tech/camp-1209-speed-tech-performance-track-time-kit/

No the difficult task to decide what wheels to get......

[BonzoHansen]

I'll be placing an order today to Kim at MCB for the Speedtech parts along with a 13" Wilwood brake kit. My buddy is purchasing all my old parts so I can better justify spending the money. I found this article that helped with my decision.

http://www.camaroperformers.com/camaro-tech/camp-1209-speed-tech-performance-track-time-kit/

No the difficult task to decide what wheels to get......

That is a good article. Rarely do you hear mentioned the differences in make/models over the years. This pic of the pitman arms is a great example. I believe the bent one to be a firebird part with poncho engines. I've seem guys use that arm to clear alternators in ls swaps w/o changing anything else, and I just shake my head.

http://image.camaroperformers.com/f/camaro-tech/camp-1209-speed-tech-performance-track-time-kit/42746682+w799+h499+cr1+ar0/camp-1209-13%2bstp-track-time-kit%2bpitman-arms.jpg

[glassman]

^^^^^^ Like me in my "GTO" LS conversion, as seen on "NastyZ",

[Blake Foster]

That is a good article. Rarely do you hear mentioned the differences in make/models over the years. This pic of the pitman arms is a great example. I believe the bent one to be a firebird part with poncho engines. I've seem guys use that arm to clear alternators in ls swaps w/o changing anything else, and I just shake my head.

http://image.camaroperformers.com/f/camaro-tech/camp-1209-speed-tech-performance-track-time-kit/42746682+w799+h499+cr1+ar0/camp-1209-13%2bstp-track-time-kit%2bpitman-arms.jpg

And THERE is the PROBLEM. Speedtech designed this as a "SYSTEM" kinda like say a subframe. (you probably would not call DSE and ask if you can relocate the steering rack, would you?) Everything in the kit has a purpose, if it didn't it wouldn't be in the kit. if the alternator placement is MORE important than the bumpsteer and ackerman, then fill your boots., it the suspension and steering is more important then maybe you should consider moving the alternator? Not ragging on Glassman just posing the question more than anything. Glad you liked the write up

[BonzoHansen]

And THERE is the PROBLEM. Speedtech designed this as a "SYSTEM" kinda like say a subframe. (you probably would not call DSE and ask if you can relocate the steering rack, would you?) Everything in the kit has a purpose, if it didn't it wouldn't be in the kit. if the alternator placement is MORE important than the bumpsteer and ackerman, then fill your boots., it the suspension and steering is more important then maybe you should consider moving the alternator? Not ragging on Glassman just posing the question more than anything. Glad you liked the write up

:thankyou:

[glassman]

And THERE is the PROBLEM. Speedtech designed this as a "SYSTEM" kinda like say a subframe. (you probably would not call DSE and ask if you can relocate the steering rack, would you?) Everything in the kit has a purpose, if it didn't it wouldn't be in the kit. if the alternator placement is MORE important than the bumpsteer and ackerman, then fill your boots., it the suspension and steering is more important then maybe you should consider moving the alternator? Not ragging on Glassman just posing the question more than anything. Glad you liked the write up

Mine was only an issue since i did an 04 GTO LS converision and kept the accessories the same for now...as my front end is mostly stock.. And yes, i will be moving the alternator, when i do the a/c, but right now i'm in the "do i do coilovers/control arms/steering or front clip dilemma.....