Shop Build Rides

[flashlight holder]

I was just wondering how long someone waits for their ride to be built. Would anyone care to say how long their ride has been in the build stage.

[tubbed69]

I have been 2 years next month but I work a ton of overtime and doing the build 100% myself.

[califconstruct]

You have quite a loaded question there, seeing that it would depend...

If you have an exact Idea of how you want the ride set up.
ie.. Brakes, rear end, tranny, motor, suspension, ect.

If you have all of your parts bought and sitting waiting to bolt on, and have deep pockets for those items you didn't plan on. ie.. :G-Dub:

If you have a vehicle that needs minor paint and or body work.

If Dave Gordon, (Flash68) jumps in and takes over the lift. :sarcasm_smiley:

Given those parameters.. 1 - 4 yrs.

[Flash68]

I have the answer for you... forever. :rules:

In all seriousness, just set your expectations as low as possible so you minimize your frustration and disappointment.



If Dave Gordon, (Flash68) jumps in and takes over the lift. :sarcasm_smiley:

Given those parameters.. 1 - 4 yrs.

Ah Art... when I saw you responded I knew my name would come up. :lol:

[Che70velle]

Will be two years this November for me. And it might take another two because I'm doing all my own work in my small shop, and money doesn't grow on trees around here anymore. But I'm having a blast, and to me, that's all that matters.

[Flash68]

Will be two years this November for me. And it might take another two because I'm doing all my own work in my small shop, and money doesn't grow on trees around here anymore. But I'm having a blast, and to me, that's all that matters.

Right on Scott! :thumbsup:

[jimbo]

Are you in the planning stage or shop jail?

[DOOM]

Going on four years for mine:cheers:

[garickman]

Been 4 years for my Police Tribute Car. I just filed a law suit and complaint with the Bureau of Automotive Repair against one shop, and law suit against the other shop won't be long to follow.

[ironworks]

It all depends on cash flow and what you wishes are. If you want an over the top car that takes more time then a simple project, Obviously.

We have customers that if the project was done tomorrow they would write us a check and we have other customers that give us an agreed on budgeted amount every month and there dream car will be done when its done.

It all comes down to cash flow. I have a few projects that we work on hammer down and have multiple guys working overtime for the duration of the project to get it done.

Obviously a shop should be faster then a guy just working on it in his spare time. These projects can take thousands of hours so. How soon can you pay some one to spend the time to get your project completed.

[flashlight holder]

Yeah my question was rather vague.

I'm wondering if the shop has a lot of semi completed projects should I keep looking....is this a bad sign?

[GregWeld]

In other words --- like Ironworks said --- usually the biggest hangup is the ability for you to pay for work performed.

My '33 Ford being built at Brizio's is going as so:

Deposit June 17th 2012
Car to be debuted January 2014 at Grand National Roadster Show


My '32 Ford which was a teardown of an existing car -- and basically a complete re-do sans interior - but part of the interior was redone... took about
10 months.... and another 2 years to sort out the problems that the crappy builder did. The car was "done" --- but not right --- LOL.

SO it depends on the builder AND the cash you toss in the burn pile.


It also depends on the complexity of the build.... simple takes less time -- complicated one off parts can take forever...

In other words -- there is NO WAY for anyone to answer your question because it all "depends".

[GregWeld]

Yeah my question was rather vague.

I'm wondering if the shop has a lot of semi completed projects should I keep looking....is this a bad sign?



HELL YES....


Ask for what's already completed! When they started and when they were finished!! There's lots of reasons given for cars in "work".... find out the story on each one. You'll find a common theme..... $$

[enzo]

Best of Show got my car done in 8 months. I had most of the parts and most importantly stuck to the original plan. They rocked it! Call Them!

[ironworks]

Yeah my question was rather vague.

I'm wondering if the shop has a lot of semi completed projects should I keep looking....is this a bad sign?

In this day and age, it can be a non issue, or a sign of a poorly run business. Ask to speak to current customers. Never believe the sales pitch.

[waynieZ]

. Ask to speak to current customers. Never believe the sales pitch.

X2!!!!!!! Get it in writing!

[transam]

Wait, our cars actually are supposed to be finished at some point? :G-Dub:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

yeah it really depends on what cars are sitting, are they clients cars or the owners collection. Have to ask questions and get to look for feedback from past customers.

In my experience the amount of time depends on the style of build and the customers financial standing and how the build is being paid or if its donated time. I have had projects that took 7 months to complete to projects going on 2 years.

[randy]

getting close to 3 years now.

Like everyone else said. If i was filthy rich my car could be done within 2 weeks. Since im not rich and i have other priorities I will be driving my car no later than Aug 19th 2014. :headscratch: The car should be done within the next 6 months. If it isnt it isnt. :relax:

[EBMC]

According to the TV shows it should take 1 week:superhack:

[mdprovee]

According to the TV shows it should take 1 week:superhack:

Too funny right there.

Mine took two years having a shop do the work. All due to schedule, money and changes along the way.

[RECOVERY ROOM]

I agree with most answers here, Since we are last to work on most builds, I have heard anywhere from 1 to 4 years depending on how much a customer can spend each week/month.

[Blake Foster]

It usually come down to how fast you can keep up with the billing.as others have pointed out.
Figure at 80.00 / hour ( which should be somewhere in the middle of billing rates) that is 700.00 a day when you include tax. add shop supplies and you could see 750-800 a day plus parts.
We have done them in 12 month all the way to 4 years, your cash flow is the determining factor. You can't expect a shop to work on your car with out getting paid. and on the other side you should see work happening on the car.

[Flash68]

As far as I can tell the shops that have posted on this thread are some reputable guys and do handle their bidness... but that being said, come on guys, there is the other side of it.... plenty of customer have no problem paying their bills but the SHOP cannot keep up... cannot keep promises... cannot make deadlines (often times self imposed BY THE SHOP). I know way too many of these situations and what really sucks is when it takes all the fun out of it and people don't even want to play anymore. No one wins then.

It takes 2 to tango.... just had to throw that out there to keep it fair.

Like a lot of things in life, the few ruin things for the many and the reputable guys have to answer the tough questions like that.... which also can be a blessing too.

:gitrdun:

[Rick D]

As far as I can tell the shops that have posted on this thread are some reputable guys and do handle their bidness... but that being said, come on guys, there is the other side of it.... plenty of customer have no problem paying their bills but the SHOP cannot keep up... cannot keep promises... cannot make deadlines (often times self imposed BY THE SHOP). I know way too many of these situations and what really sucks is when it takes all the fun out of it and people don't even want to play anymore. No one wins then.

It takes 2 to tango.... just had to throw that out there to keep it fair.

Like a lot of things in life, the few ruin things for the many and the reputable guys have to answer the tough questions like that.... which also can be a blessing too.

:gitrdun:

Well said Dave!! The bad part is there is way more shops that do not meet the deadline rather than the customers not paying the bill!

As you said though it does take two to tango!!

[ironworks]

As far as I can tell the shops that have posted on this thread are some reputable guys and do handle their bidness... but that being said, come on guys, there is the other side of it.... plenty of customer have no problem paying their bills but the SHOP cannot keep up... cannot keep promises... cannot make deadlines (often times self imposed BY THE SHOP). I know way too many of these situations and what really sucks is when it takes all the fun out of it and people don't even want to play anymore. No one wins then.

It takes 2 to tango.... just had to throw that out there to keep it fair.

Like a lot of things in life, the few ruin things for the many and the reputable guys have to answer the tough questions like that.... which also can be a blessing too.

:gitrdun:


Now this is where you get into a difference between a shop and a business. Greg Weld has a shop in his backyard, I have a business. A shop does not have to be in your back yard. You can rent a space or heck even own the building. Some shops learn from their mistakes and quickly learn to run a business. Most builders learn this lesson. Very few open up a business on day one, if they were that smart, they would open another more profitable business and work less hours.

I see these shops pop up all the time on the Internet, they post up stuff that looks like it was built it in the dark. It is rough at best. The projects never reach the end because they cannot be finished. The builder does not have the forethought and planning to make the car work.

I also know there is an ass for every seat and a girl for every guy. There are guys who can build a car for a guy that cost 10k and have a satisfied customer. There are also guys can't touch a car that costs less then 6 figures and a few that only do 7 figure projects. We parked next to a car at show a few weeks ago that had more money in the paint then a Camaro we built from the ground up a few years ago. Just the paint job, and in my opinion the paint job was worth the money, it was a ridler car.

The biggest thing I have learned in business is picking the right customers. This is really hard, I have picked my share and more of some bad apples. At this point we have some awesome customers. And having a good customer does not have anything to do with how thick their wallet is. It helps. But it really has to do with their ability to actually understand the amount of work it takes to build this junk and be able to tell the difference in quality of cars and be able to reasonably understand the level of work that will satisfy them and that they will be able to pay for in a timely manner.

I had a really rich customer tell me a few years ago that I should strive for customers that don't want to see you go out of business after your done with the car. I'm not saying some one wishes you harm, I'm saying some one that understands you HAVE to make a profit to feed your family and you deserve to go on vacation. They understand you run a business and have to pay expenses and this shop is not free to operate. That water you offered them when they walked in to be hospitable cost some one money, so does the toilet paper in the bathroom. Everyone says how bad Walmart is but a lot of people must buy their stuff cuz they are the biggest retailer in the world. People now days hunt out the low price as their first qualification.

I used to get the phone call a few years ago, their first question was, How much to bag my truck? My response was what kinda truck do you have? That usually gets them to realize how dumb their question is. But people look at custom work like a menu, and try to figure out the cost so quickly with out trying analyze the reality of the cost of a project. Some guys think you can build a car for less then then cost of all the actual parts. They just look up the price of the crate engine and never think that is the cheap part of the engine. The ECU and bracket system and headers and clutch can cost more then a 430hp LS3. All these fancy parts people put on their cars on this site are expensive.

The guys who I think really has this business dialed is Roy Brizo, that guys builds like 15 cars a years and has the highest labor rate in the industry and I can't think of the last time he had a car at SEMA. But Roy has a waiting list probably a year long and that was even during the bad economy a few years ago. But Roy will not anything crazy for a new customer and hates to do it anyways. Ask Greg how hard it was to put an Ls3 in his 33 it was.

My last example will be a story. I had a customer call me and send pics of a project he had. I gave him a rough idea at 16k for what I saw, he thought it was half that money. I said Ok well I know I know this business better then a guy who does not even know how to do the work. He wanted me to drive 4 hours to come look, I said will it pointless. Unless your willing to pay 16, because if I get there and go yeap it's 16 and your only gonna pay 8k i should just save my Sunday. So this customer got hooked up with another shop who said they could do all we discussed and more for 7k. Well a few years later that same customer asked me at show to swing by and give my opinion about about how screwed up his car was after the mess he got into. I went and looked and the guy was showing me things that were wrong and kept going on and on. I said we'll how much did you lay the guy. He told me well it was supposed to be 7k but it really ended up at 5k. I then told him well you did not pay for this to be right, he did the things you wanted but pay for him to put it on in the way you consider proper. You paid him to hang a quarter panel and he did. You just not pay him to do it in the way you wanted it done. So many years later then car is getting closer to getting done on here and I see they guy has learned some lessons that you get what you pay for. You cannot go to Sizzler and bitch your steak does not taste like Ruth Chris for the 8.99 you just paid for a New York steak. It just a given Ruth Chris is a whole lot more. But if Sizzle makes you happy eat it up.
So the problem I see is a shop that really has no a real clue what it takes and a customer that thinks the best of people. I think most of the time, the crazy build stories we hear are not premeditated, they are just poorly run businesses.

You should never have to leave a deposit for labor with a shop. I can understand big ticket parts.
You should be able to other customer, local and long distance. Find out how the rubber meets the road.
If any body is going to give you a bid, you better have a bare metal cars and an exact parts list of every single part that will go on the car.
Remember if your going with the lowest bidder, that is exactly what your getting, THE LOWEST BIDDER.
If you ever have something you don't feel comfortable about, your probably right if you cannot get a satisfactory answer from your builder. Keep asking until your question is answered. I spend a lot of my time answering what the customer says is a dumb question. Taking time for these questions builds confidence in the builder customer relationship.
Ask questions about cars in a shop that appear to be stalled. Every car has a story.
Just because the guys seems nice is no excuse for proper billing paperwork and contract. Now days most legit shops will have some kind of contract.
Don't pick the first shop that you come in contact with, without checking out any possibility.
Work with a builder who is going to do the work if you order parts. Every builder has parts they prefer to use for one reason or another. Order wrong parts does not save you any money. I see this often.

Good luck and choose wisely

[Vince@Meanstreets]

end of thread.

well said.

[tmadden]

According to the TV shows it should take 1 week:superhack:

Funny

[tmadden]

Nearly 5 years for me. You can only do what your money allows. I'm a regular working stiff. Mines been in and out of several shops. Musclerodz rescued me and we are almost at the end now. I've made several bad decisions on shops and could teach a class on what to look for. Finally found someone who can do it all and not 2000 miles away. Do it right the 1st time. MUCH MUCH cheaper!!!

[randy]

Ive visited 4 shops One guy quoted me said amount. Another guy quoted me cheaper than said amount. The 3rd guy said he doesnt know all cars are different. The thing is ive never seen a finished car come out of his shop. The 4th guy quoted me a labor rate, told me all cars are different, and that he doesnt give quotes he just works on the car. I went with him because of his honesty.

[GregWeld]

Since I was mentioned in another post --- I'll toss some stuff in the room for you to think about.


#1 -- Go with a shop that works on the kind of car you're going to build if you can find one. Familiarity with the parts - suppliers - quality - and job at hand will help make the process smoother.

#2 -- These jobs are like house remodels... YOU and the shop must understand there is no way to have X Ray eyes and know what's under the paint etc... and costs can mount up quickly when you get in there and find bad stuff.


#3 -- It always happens - to everyone - when you're doing these projects when your buddy says --- DUDE! You know what would REALLY BE KOOL?? Or you get on these boards and see what others are doing. So in other words -- PLAN YOUR BUILD AND BUILD WHAT YOU PLANNED. Or be prepared to have delays and costs that go with those changes.



#4 -- This is a HOBBY -- do you enjoy the journey? Do you understand what this costs in terms of not just cash - but time? Do you want your car done next week - or are you ready to just wade in and keep at it until the car is ready? I have a buddy / friend that spent 2 million dollars building a car and he's never taken the car home even though it's finished years ago... HE loves the process he really doesn't care about the car once it's done. He's already moved on to the next project or two... MOST OF US AREN'T THAT GUY -- but you may be surprised at what kind of guy you are... the process -- or the "get 'er done" guy. Etc. The trouble is -- most of us don't know who we are.


#5 -- Money isn't everything - but you don't know that until you're actually writing the checks. Building a SEMA quality car is just huge money.... if you think that's the quality you're going to get - and your budget is 35 grand all in all done.... OH and you only actually have 10 grand now.... FUHGIDABOUDIT. If you can write a 10K check every month for a few months and then maybe when it gets to paint - write a check for 20/30 grand -- oh yeah! Then it need upholstery and that's another 12/15/20 grand..... So what I'm saying is --- make damn sure you really understand what you're getting into. I hope you can do this and that you LOVE the process and the finished product.


RE: BRIZIO

He runs a business -- it just happens to build hot rods.

He completely understands what it takes to build these cars - they've done 10 gazillion of them.

His shop has specialists -- in other words - a guy that just does plumbing - another guy does the floors and firewall fab - another guy that does sheetmetal fab work - a guy that just does chassis. Ya get the picture? Each guy does the same thing over and over - with various changes but they're set up to work without interruption and with all the right tools and skills etc. The chassis guy doesn't have to go out and figure out how the crossmember sets in.

We had a conversation about what I wanted to build - we looked at lots of pictures - we got a plan. That plan has not changed.

I gave them 50 grand a year ago the middle of June. That ordered the body - motor - trans - frame rails.

When those arrived - I gave him another 100 grand. So call that last September/October.

The car has chassis - chassis mods - rear end - front end - grill - motor - trans - all plumbing - fuel tank - dash board - gauges - body - top - glass - A/C - one off wheels - tires - one off hood - and hood sides - louvers - custom tail pan - complete exhaust headers to tailpipes.... and is now in paint shop.

I have not been asked for another dime despite my asking if they need "more". I was told that they'll need more when paint is complete - and of course then it gets wired and upholstery. So while I don't know what that is - I have a good guess and this isn't the cheap guy. So I think the car will be finished for EXACTLY what we discussed a year ago.... as in like within 10 grand or so.

His shop rate is 105 per hour....

Think about that! That's the best of the best shop rate.


$105 an hour - is he "efficient"? Can he do in an hour what the $35 an hour guy takes 3 hours to do? My guess is he is. Why? Because he sticks to what he knows and his shop is set up for. The total of my "custom" touches are frenched tail lights and license plate - custom grill (done a zillion times) and fancy wheels (also done before so they're really 2nd off instead of one off).

Here's what's even more important to me. I knew exactly what I wanted - and I'm building exactly that. The shop can order parts and just keep on truckin'

[fleetus macmullitz]

The great input from many is appreciated. :thumbsup:

If people pay attention to what is being said here, they (myself included) can really help themselves avoid a lot of wasted time and money.

:lateral: ...accept no substitutes. ;)

[GregWeld]

I would challenge you all to another way of thinking....



If the "shop" isn't PROUD of their work --- and you look around a shop and all you see is a bunch of halfassed finished cars - in disarray... dusty... parts strewn all over the benches and under the car... IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT YOUR PARTS AND PROJECT TREATED? Oh yeah ---- he's cheap per hour. But most likely you're paying his rent and food bill and not getting any work done...


When you look at pictures of shops on this forum -- (The Roadster Shop -- Ironworks -- Muscle Rods -- East Bay Muscle Cars -- Rad Rides by Troy -- BBT -- Holohans -- et al --- Sorry guys if I forgot to name every one of the GREAT builders on this site!).... do you see crap piles? NOPE. Do you see QUALITY FABRICATION going on? HECK YEAH! That takes SKILLS -- THAT TAKES TIME - TIME IS MONEY... These guys aren't doing this for $10 an hour... For the most part - they're not getting rich either.... they are doing what they love and making a living. I wish them all the very very best and have the highest respect for them and their employees. To me - they are gods.

So look around a shop and really SEE what is going on.... and how it's going on.... and SEE if the employees are WORKING on something... hang around a bit and SEE if they're doing it the way you want yours done or is it dent pullers and mud. Are the panels GAPPED (their is no spray for this YET but Doctor Renner and Ironworks are close to a formula!).... are they straight - is the paint flat and orange peel free... is the chrome / Stainless laying flat and tight to the body... is the motor clean and well wired -- IS THE STUFF PROTECTED from accidental damage..... or is the brand new shiny doohickey (the stuff you're looking at belongs to somebody!) filthy and beat up already...

In short --- PAY ATTENTION to more than just the "quote" or scope of work...

[syborg tt]

I agree with Greg. Dave at Comp Fab did all of the initial fab work on Syborg for about 25 grand. I a matter of days (not weeks) he completed the entire back half and had the truck back on the ground. So paying Dave a few more bucks an hour was well worth it. Because he is much more efficient them most guys out there.


$105 an hour - is he "efficient"? Can he do in an hour what the $35 an hour guy takes 3 hours to do? My guess is he is. Why? Because he sticks to what he knows and his shop is set up for. The total of my "custom" touches are frenched tail lights and license plate - custom grill (done a zillion times) and fancy wheels (also done before so they're really 2nd off instead of one off).

Here's what's even more important to me. I knew exactly what I wanted - and I'm building exactly that. The shop can order parts and just keep on truckin'

[Flash68]

I posted my comment to actually generate more of this exact type of discussion in this thread and I see it worked. Some great responses from builders and customers in this thread now.



The biggest thing I have learned in business is picking the right customers. This is really hard, I have picked my share and more of some bad apples. At this point we have some awesome customers. And having a good customer does not have anything to do with how thick their wallet is. It helps. But it really has to do with their ability to actually understand the amount of work it takes to build this junk and be able to tell the difference in quality of cars and be able to reasonably understand the level of work that will satisfy them and that they will be able to pay for in a timely manner.



Great point and not talked about a lot. It's always prospective customers looking for a shop, not the other away around.




This is a HOBBY -- do you enjoy the journey? Do you understand what this costs in terms of not just cash - but time? Do you want your car done next week - or are you ready to just wade in and keep at it until the car is ready? I have a buddy / friend that spent 2 million dollars building a car and he's never taken the car home even though it's finished years ago... HE loves the process he really doesn't care about the car once it's done. He's already moved on to the next project or two... MOST OF US AREN'T THAT GUY -- but you may be surprised at what kind of guy you are... the process -- or the "get 'er done" guy. Etc. The trouble is -- most of us don't know who we are.




So true and you gotta just learn the old fashioned hard way to figure this out usually.

I would challenge you all to another way of thinking....



If the "shop" isn't PROUD of their work --- and you look around a shop and all you see is a bunch of halfassed finished cars - in disarray... dusty... parts strewn all over the benches and under the car... IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT YOUR PARTS AND PROJECT TREATED? Oh yeah ---- he's cheap per hour. But most likely you're paying his rent and food bill and not getting any work done...




Another great point. Some people think they know exactly where everything is in their shop (you may think you are organized in your clusterf*ck way but the perception to customers and visitors is that you are a mess -- THAT matters).

And taking care of your expensive parts paid for with hard earned dollars is important too. Just having them simple protected in their staging area or on their dedicated cart means a lot to me. I have dealt with both.

Good talk, Rusty. :cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

I posted my comment to actually generate more of this exact type of discussion in this thread and I see it worked.




http://inglorioushipsters.com/comic/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/horowitz.jpg

:D

[Flash68]

http://inglorioushipsters.com/comic/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/horowitz.jpg

:D

Ya like that did ya. :hitaxeonthehead:

I don't like those suspenders. :lol:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Ya like that did ya. :hitaxeonthehead:

I don't like those suspenders. :lol:

Jes making it safe for work...where the most hours on lat-g are spent. :lol:

:topic: ...maybe.

[tmadden]

I would challenge you all to another way of thinking....



If the "shop" isn't PROUD of their work --- and you look around a shop and all you see is a bunch of halfassed finished cars - in disarray... dusty... parts strewn all over the benches and under the car... IS THAT THE WAY YOU WANT YOUR PARTS AND PROJECT TREATED? Oh yeah ---- he's cheap per hour. But most likely you're paying his rent and food bill and not getting any work done...


When you look at pictures of shops on this forum -- (The Roadster Shop -- Ironworks -- Muscle Rods -- East Bay Muscle Cars -- Rad Rides by Troy -- BBT -- Holohans -- et al --- Sorry guys if I forgot to name every one of the GREAT builders on this site!).... do you see crap piles? NOPE. Do you see QUALITY FABRICATION going on? HECK YEAH! That takes SKILLS -- THAT TAKES TIME - TIME IS MONEY... These guys aren't doing this for $10 an hour... For the most part - they're not getting rich either.... they are doing what they love and making a living. I wish them all the very very best and have the highest respect for them and their employees. To me - they are gods.

So look around a shop and really SEE what is going on.... and how it's going on.... and SEE if the employees are WORKING on something... hang around a bit and SEE if they're doing it the way you want yours done or is it dent pullers and mud. Are the panels GAPPED (their is no spray for this YET but Doctor Renner and Ironworks are close to a formula!).... are they straight - is the paint flat and orange peel free... is the chrome / Stainless laying flat and tight to the body... is the motor clean and well wired -- IS THE STUFF PROTECTED from accidental damage..... or is the brand new shiny doohickey (the stuff you're looking at belongs to somebody!) filthy and beat up already...

In short --- PAY ATTENTION to more than just the "quote" or scope of work...


GOSPEL

[DBasher]

Great discussion and real world advice so far. I gotta ask the question of warranty on these high dollar builds. I know Greg had issues with the 32 built in Orygon, what all is covered?
If the chassis developed a rattle or the paint blisters or the 20k interior is wonky after a few months what happens? Are builders standing behind the work?

Blows my mind on what is spent on some of these cars:headspin:

Dan

[flashlight holder]

Lots of good feedback ....I'm glad I asked the questions.

I just can't see how someone can wait so long Over 3 years or more to get their car back to them.....especially if the customer has the money. I guess it's basically pure relief to just get your car back it seems and you deal with whatever problem arises later...LOL

I have lots of good information to go by when looking for a good shop and will ask for some customers to call for feedback.

[jimbo]

What are you looking to have done and what area?
You can get plenty of suggestions from the members here.

[GregWeld]

Great discussion and real world advice so far. I gotta ask the question of warranty on these high dollar builds. I know Greg had issues with the 32 built in Orygon, what all is covered?
If the chassis developed a rattle or the paint blisters or the 20k interior is wonky after a few months what happens? Are builders standing behind the work?

Blows my mind on what is spent on some of these cars:headspin:

Dan



Great question Dan....



The reason I ream some Orygone azz (otherwise known as STEVE FRISBEE) every chance I get is because not only did I not get a decent project outcome (as far as running and driving)... AND the idiot tried to charge me for fixing stuff I'd already paid to have done right the first time! Now --- MINE was a brand new build -- and it went back to the shop within days of picking it up -- on at least 3 or 4 separate occasions!

If you actually plan to DRIVE your car... beware the "show car builder" you see around at indoor car shows but you've never once seen someone actually driving their stuff!


On the extreme opposite side of the above mentioned bozo --- was Jeff Kugel of Kugel Komponents who not only sent me two complete sets of "stub axles" -- he then paid to have the complete rear end disassembled and had CUSTOM one off stub axles built -- NO CHARGE.... zero zip nada!

WE are friends now! He's a great guy... and never once made excuses. He just worked towards a solution.


I would "like to think" that most shops want a happy customer - and frankly - when you get all done -- you should be good friends not just "a customer"...

There's going to be "issues" when you're doing custom builds... and I would think most shops are going to help you resolve them.

[Ketzer]

I'm going to bet price isn't always the best indicator of quality either, high or low. Youknow if it's too cheap, You know it, don't kid yourself or say that it's just a good deal. That deal is going to cost you some where down the line.
But, the flip side of that is a high price doesn't always get quality either. I'd be willing to bet GW spent more on the car he was unhappy with than the car he is going to love.


Jeff-

[Streetking]

I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Eric@Griffith Metal Shaping, built my '71 Camaro in little over a year. It would have been quicker, but the Body Shop took longer than expected. This was a complete build front to rear. It was the main car he worked on that year, but he is a workaholic..

[GregWeld]

I'm going to bet price isn't always the best indicator of quality either, high or low. Youknow if it's too cheap, You know it, don't kid yourself or say that it's just a good deal. That deal is going to cost you some where down the line.
But, the flip side of that is a high price doesn't always get quality either. I'd be willing to bet GW spent more on the car he was unhappy with than the car he is going to love.


Jeff-



NO QUESTION!!!


And the sad part is.... The Briz was my FIRST CHOICE to re-do the '32 but I gave The Bozo the job because he'd built the car originally in 1994.... I've regretted that decision ever since!

[GregWeld]

I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Eric@Griffith Metal Shaping, built my '71 Camaro in little over a year. It would have been quicker, but the Body Shop took longer than expected. This was a complete build front to rear. It was the main car he worked on that year, but he is a workaholic..



Some of us have been to Eric's shop --- AND seen his work! I'd put him right up there with the others I named! Like I said - when I was typing that I just couldn't come up with every name I'd have liked to! Hey! Damn it! I'm old! I once did mach 2 in a turbo Ferrari.... I have a little brain damage....

[carbuff]

Some of us have been to Eric's shop --- AND seen his work! I'd put him right up there with the others I named! Like I said - when I was typing that I just couldn't come up with every name I'd have liked to! Hey! Damn it! I'm old! I once did mach 2 in a turbo Ferrari.... I have a little brain damage....

That really was fun to watch! :)

I'll second SW's opinion on Eric. If you are in the Texas area and looking for a shop to do some great work, and most importantly, someone to stand behind it (I cannot express enough how great Eric has been in that sense), you should make a road trip to Austin to check out his shop and work. He doesn't have the biggest shop to house 10 projects at once, but his attention to detail is amazing on the projects he's working on...

[EBMC]

I was a little hesitant to respond, but a common mistake I see often is what I refer to as bodyshop builds. I see a lot of people trust there builds to body shops. Now dont get me wrong i know there are very capable builders who have body and paint capabilities on site and I'm not referring to them, but to shops who's main business is collision type work. Because a shop may do incredible paint work, doesn't mean they have the knowledge to properly build a car from ground up. I mean properly set up suspensions, stance, brake systems, electrical, hydraulics ect.
Ive seen cars if they were engineered correctly from the start, there wouldn't be drilling into fresh paint, to install things that should have been prefitted before paint. I see hydraulics with improper line types and fittings. improper wiring sizing, wrong fluid transfer hose types and sizing, wheels with wrong offsets, sizes and rubbing issues with tires, wrong brake pedal ratios and MC bore sizes, calipers not shimmed correctly. Incorrect driveline angles Ect.ect.
There are some great "bolt on" parts out there these days that make it easier for a lot of people to minimize these mistakes and I don't think these shops are purposely trying to half ass anything, but there specialty is not the technical aspect of the build, it's the body and paint. A lot of times they realize they're in over there head after the car is painted and assembly begins, then the car just sits forever with fresh paint and nothing gets done. We get many calls from people with cars in this situation
I don't want anyone to think I'm referring to all body shops, just the ones who who say " sure we can do all the mechanicals on the car as well as the paint, how hard can it be" - WITHOUT, knowing how hard it can be.

[Blake Foster]

I was a little hesitant to respond due to the fact I may offend some people out there, and I'm not referring to anyone in particular but its a common mistake I see often. It's what I refer to as bodyshop builds. I see a lot of people trust there builds to body shops. Now dont get me wrong i know there are very capable builders who have body and paint capabilities on site, but because a shop may do incredible paint work, doesn't mean they have the knowledge to properly build a car from ground up. I mean properly set up suspensions, stance, brake systems, electrical, hydraulics ect.
Ive seen cars if they were engineered correctly from the start, there wouldn't be drilling into fresh paint, to install things that should have been prefitted before paint. I see hydraulics with improper line types and fittings. improper wiring sizing, wrong fluid transfer hose types and sizing, wheels with wrong offsets, sizes and rubbing issues with tires, wrong brake pedal ratios and MC bore sizes, calipers not shimmed correctly. Incorrect driveline angles Ect.ect.
There are some great "bolt on" parts out there these days that make it easier for a lot of people to minimize these mistakes and I don't think these shops are purposely trying to half ass anything, but there specialty is not the technical aspect of the build, it's the body and paint. A lot of times they may realize they're in over there head after the car is painted and assembly begins, then the car just sits with fresh paint and nothing gets done. We get many calls from people with cars in this situation
Like I said I don't want anyone to think I'm referring to all body shops, just the ones who who say " sure we can do all the mechanicals on the car as well as the paint, how hard can it be" - WITHOUT, knowing how hard it can be.

Agree 100%. on the flip side I have found that with out having the ability to do inhouse paint, the project also falls short. in "Most " cases the builder then looses control of the time line. as well it allows the build to progress with both mechanical and paint being done at the same time which I feel saves time and money for the customer.
I strive to do the mechanical and "engineering" to the highest level expected from the build budget. There has to be some compromise always to some degree other wise you will always end up over budget. Not all cars need to be built to NASA or Race Preped specs.(for lack of a better comparison) things like brakes, steering, NEVER get compromised on that would be STUPID

[GregWeld]

Brizio doesn't do ANY paint -- or body work -- or upholstery... there is not one can of bondo in his shop let alone a spray gun.

My guess is that other than Charley - nobody could tell you who paints his cars...

Sid Chavers does all the upholstery.

My only point here is -- that he is still controlling the dates and quality because of his relationship with the outside shops.


I was never asked where I wanted my paint and upholstery done. I don't think there is an option. HAHAHAHAHAHA


HOWEVER --- I agree with the general statement that in most cases I'd want to pick a shop that also did the paintwork.



STEVE ---- AKA EBMC ---- I was going to rant about taking a PT type build to the local body shop... and just didn't because I already have way too many posts! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[EBMC]

Agree 100%. on the flip side I have found that with out having the ability to do inhouse paint, the project also falls short. in "Most " cases the builder then looses control of the time line. as well it allows the build to progress with both mechanical and paint being done at the same time which I feel saves time and money for the customer.
I strive to do the mechanical and "engineering" to the highest level expected from the build budget. There has to be some compromise always to some degree other wise you will always end up over budget. Not all cars need to be built to NASA or Race Preped specs.(for lack of a better comparison) things like brakes, steering, NEVER get compromised on that would be STUPID

Yes, as a reputable builder its great to have in house paint and body if there are no compromises on equipment and talent, and in fact it may be an area that my shop may go into in the future, (but for now I have a great network of people we work with, so there is no need for it)
But for shops whose PRIMARY focus is on body and paint is when I see a lot of problems crop up with overall finished product quality and time frame. Its just been my expeireince with the frequent calls and e mails we get.

[youthpastor]

In other words --- like Ironworks said --- usually the biggest hangup is the ability for you to pay for work performed.

My '33 Ford being built at Brizio's is going as so:

Deposit June 17th 2012
Car to be debuted January 2014 at Grand National Roadster Show


My '32 Ford which was a teardown of an existing car -- and basically a complete re-do sans interior - but part of the interior was redone... took about
10 months.... and another 2 years to sort out the problems that the crappy builder did. The car was "done" --- but not right --- LOL.

SO it depends on the builder AND the cash you toss in the burn pile.


It also depends on the complexity of the build.... simple takes less time -- complicated one off parts can take forever...

In other words -- there is NO WAY for anyone to answer your question because it all "depends".

right on the $$ Greg.....how quick can the money come in? How complex is the build? It it a mini-tubbed '69 Camaro with stock interior? Is there custom interior? Custom metal work? Rendering....?

We ask customers how much money they are comfortable spending in a billing cycle( every two weeks). Do they want to spend $30K in a month or in 6 months? Its the same money, just over longer period. if a guy says I can spend $1000 a month, It hardly pays for the spot the car is parked in. Also momentum is a big plug. When we have to stop and start due to lack of $$ (which rarely happens at our shop) It kills the momentum and costs more in the long run. Better parts come to market, styles change etc.

There is a beautiful Nova here in town in bare metal that was supposed to debut at the 2003 SMOTY competition. It has a ZL1 engine and directional 17" billet wheels with old school Baer brakes. It needs a complete make-over today

Anyways..stick to a plan, get the $$ together and pull the trigger. We average about 12-14 months right now- Chris

[DOOM]

All I have to say on this is DO NOT SEND YOUR BUILD TO A BODY/COLLISION SHOP!!! There is a reason my car is at BBT and not my own shop. I can go on and on about this but I can tell you this if its a busy shop your car will never be a priority . You are asking for trouble. Find a good RESTORATION/FAB SHOP to do your work .

[monza]

Great thread should be a sticky on how to pick a builder for sure.

[PSV]

Unless you have a large budget and a lot of time or want something unique I wouldn't bother. Look for a car that you can buy and enjoy immediately. My car has been in process for more years than I want to admit. The car is a complete build rotisserie job that started in 2004. The last piece of the build, interior and electrical, is said to be completed in 2 weeks but it has been at that shop for 18 months. Prior to this many delays were due to me changing my mind, etc. A lot has changed in 10 years so my car will be a dated in terms of technology. When I started I had everything DSE offered but that was before the quadralink and hydroformed subframe even existed. The work is very good but it has taken a toll on my patience and a lot has changed in my life since the start of the build to the point that I really don't even feel like I want the car anymore. January 2012 I bought a completed car from this site for a fraction of the cost of my build that I was able to enjoy as soon as I got it home.

[cheapta]

My 65 Nova has been on my chassis jig in my home shop for 5 years now-that's FIVE YEARS JUST ON THE CHASSIS JIG!! But, I've never built a chassis before, I've done all the engineering myself and built every single piece in my own shop. I get a little discouraged sometimes, I'm in my late 50's and have my fingers crossed that I'll live long enough to finish the car.
I live in New England so working on the Nova is mostly a wintertime project. Summers here are short, and I have a Fabulous Harley Softail that I like to get out on as often as I can.
I also have a 69 Z/28 and my wife owns a 66 Buick convertible that I maintain. These are summertime cars so I do what it takes to keep them rolling in the nice weather and the Nova takes a back seat. And, of course, there's ALWAYS the "disposable income" issue.
The car is a 65 Nova 2 dr sedan, I've built a 2x3 rectangular tube chassis inside the car with triangulated 4-link rear suspension and a complete custom C4 Corvette front suspension-that's been a time-eater, believe me!
I'd post a build thread but I don't like having to use an outside picture-hosting website to put pics on here, that takes too much time and I'm kind of a dinosaur with this computer stuff-I van barely handle the basic stuff!

Peter