Yet another 2nd Gen Camaro - Project/update

[gerno]

This weekend I modified the UCA mounts a bit and took the car out for the first real test.

For the mounts what I decided to do was to cut the bottom weld on the front of the factory mount and bottom of the Chicane mount. I then cut another ~1/4" out and bent the factory mount outward ~1/4". I then welded it all back in place. I took it to the alignment shop and it's still not at the -.5 to -1 degree target but is closer at -1.5 on both sides.

After finishing this up at ~ 730 sat night I cleaned and prepped the car for an autocross the next day.

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The autocross was fun and interesting. Day started out very nice but a bit overcast. I was working the 2nd group and running the third (of 3 groups) so I was excited the course would be cleaned up. A total of 169 cars were running so it was a full day.

During the end of the first group a huge storm came in and dumped rain. The course turned into a lake. It was enough to were the 2nd run group was knocking down cones with water splashing instead of actually hitting the cones. Luckily the rain stopped, sun came out and the course dried in most areas by the time I ran. Overall the course was fun and designed by a Vette driver. It was basically a 3 straights with 3 180's tying them together and a tights bend at the beginning and end to slow you down. It was fast and well suited for my car.

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First run I went very slow. Fastest speed when the course was dry was ~39 sec and I ran a 48.132. I just wanted to feel the car and how it responded to the turns. I never left 1st and never even touched the brakes.

2nd run match the style of the first but I picked up the pace a tad. Still never left 1st but did touch the brakes. The car had little to no rear grip. I slid through the entire course. It was fun but not what I expected. When using the brakes I realized that I don't have a lot of confidence in them. I ran a 46.396

3rd run I decided it might be good to shift to 2nd gear in order to reduce the torque on the rear wheels. Unfortunately the engine tune wasn’t ready to support this and the car bogged pretty bad and then gave too much power. I ended up spinning in the last 180. I ran a 60.293

4th run I went back to the original plan and decided to begin running the hell out of the car . Luckily the engine has no issue spinning over 7K so I rapped it out pretty good. Basically I drifted 50% of the course. The slaloms did feel nice and I could see a big difference in how the cars takes to transitions. I ran 44.64

5th and final run I decided to really go for it. Basically drifted through 70% of the course and it was actually pretty dry by this time. One thing I did notice was the predictability of the car. I was confident hanging the car out and driving it hard. I used the brakes some but mostly relied on the engine braking. I really need to look into the brakes more. As far as the steering I was getting a bit of a push but the car really responded we’ll to backing off the steering angle and letting the tires grab then inputting a little more. Last run I ran 43.838 and ended up #1 out of 44 novices. Not a bad end to the day...

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Changes to be made

Brakes - I have not run a manual setup before so I need to get used to it. I’ll try to bleed the system 1 more time. I also think I need to change from a 5-1 to a 6-1 pedal ratio.

Shocks - I ran the shocks ~75% on the firm side. I spoke to Jay at Speedtech today and he recommended the exact opposite. Next even I'll run them ~25 % firm and see how it changes. He said that’s how they ran the Nova (25-50%) and with the lighter setting I will get more weight transfer and better grip.


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[Flash68]

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Dude, awesome. That thing looks GREAT!

And sweet $5 trophy. Thems the best! :D

:trophy-1302:

[glassman]

Nice going Steve :thumbsup:

Feels good to get her out huh? Looks good too, the stance and those rims...nice

[WSSix]

Glad the car feels good to you. Good luck getting it sorted.

Is it ok that you have the UCA bolt holes slotted like that? I would think the UCAs could move up the slots given enough force.

[CURVES]

Right on, way to go, undefeated with the new set-up!

[Track Junky]

Great job. BTW, car is looking really good also. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Fantastic write up Steve!! And yeah - we know how that rain can come in and dump Texas style!! OM!!


Glad you had a great time - because at the end of the day - that's what counts most.

Now go check your welds for cracks.... LOL

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Nice work!!

More ass to seat time will do you good. Play with the settings and see where it takes you. Only way to nail it down.

[gerno]

Dude, awesome. That thing looks GREAT!

And sweet $5 trophy. Thems the best! :D

:trophy-1302:

It is a sweet little trophy, I feel like I'm 12 again.....

Nice going Steve :thumbsup:

Feels good to get her out huh? Looks good too, the stance and those rims...nice

Felt really nice to get out of the garage and run her. Thanks for the complements.

Funny thing about the rims. Since all the changes, the only noticeable thing from the outside is the rims. It's funny how now I have many people mention how much money I must have in the car. It's really crazy how much of a difference a set of wheels can make


Glad the car feels good to you. Good luck getting it sorted.

Is it ok that you have the UCA bolt holes slotted like that? I would think the UCAs could move up the slots given enough force.

Pretty sure it won't take too long to get sorted. I've signed up for every autocross and track day I can through the summer so I have to get it done quick....

The UCA mounts are meant to be slotted. As per the directions from Speedtech, its a necessary step with the installation...

Right on, way to go, undefeated with the new set-up!

Now I just have to keep the pace. Good part is it's really only me and Carbuff in the CAM class at the local autocross so once I'm out of the novice class I'll at lest have 2nd place....

Great job. BTW, car is looking really good also. :thumbsup:

Thanks a bunch. Would be nice to be back in Cali running with you guys, perhaps some day I'll get the car back that direction.

Fantastic write up Steve!! And yeah - we know how that rain can come in and dump Texas style!! OM!!


Glad you had a great time - because at the end of the day - that's what counts most.

Now go check your welds for cracks.... LOL

It was lots of fun. Hopefully this is the last of the big rains for the summer, at least on track days. With your daughter moving to town maybe I should watch the weather forecast to see when you're coming for a visit.


Speaking of checking the car. I did put it on stands before the event and checked everything out. It did look pretty good. Before every event I like to give it a good check. Overall everything looked good with the exception of the rear brakes.

I noticed a ring of grease on the outside of the rotor, ~1/4" into the brake pad. It's really odd because the hub seal with the floater is on the inside. I'm thinking I might have overfilled the axle with fluid but not sure. I ended up pulling the hubs off and repacking the bearings/resealing them. Along with cleaning everything. Since going back together I have't seen the same thing again. I also spoke with Ken at Speedway and he was stumped by the issue as well. He did mention the need to torque the axle nut to 30 ft/lbs so this time I was more car full and torqued it. Good thing I have a 2 3/8" socked already....

[WSSix]

Thanks Steve. Obviously, I haven't gotten to that point in my build cause I had no idea.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Are you using synthetic grease?

[rickpaw]

Congrats on the win. That's a nice little trophy.

Now that my car is somewhat done, we need to get together with our cars some time.

[gerno]

Are you using synthetic grease?

I'm running Red Line grease and gear oil in the axle....Why do you ask???

FYI - I'll be in the bay area next week for work and am going to try to come by your shop and say thanks for all the little tips you've helped to provide.

Congrats on the win. That's a nice little trophy.

Now that my car is somewhat done, we need to get together with our cars some time.

I agree. If nothing else I'm looking into some track days at MSR in Houston. You down to join?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'm running Red Line grease and gear oil in the axle....Why do you ask???

FYI - I'll be in the bay area next week for work and am going to try to come by your shop and say thanks for all the little tips you've helped to provide.



I agree. If nothing else I'm looking into some track days at MSR in Houston. You down to join?

Im not sure why but from my experience the synthetic stuff seems to flow better which includes getting past seals.

We had a few issues in the past with several cars were we would end up with grease on the wrong side of the seals. so we switched back to regular petrol based. Not sure but the issues stopped. Some of them ran the same seal.

There is no scientific basis behind my experience just from what we have noticed.

[GregWeld]

If you talk to the reps they'll tell you to never run synthetics in your rear end. It's too slick.


A8. Clutch chatter occurs when the clutch cone engages and disengages rapidly in the differential case. It causes no damage and can be cured by using the correct oil and friction modifies. Clutch chatter is caused by the difference between the static (non-slipping) friction coefficient and the dynamic (slipping) friction coefficient. When the difference becomes too great, the clutch cone cycles between the two (sticking and slipping), which creates the noise. Friction modifiers bring the static and dynamic friction coefficients closer together to minimize chatter. Auburn recommends using Auburn limited-slip additive (#504102) with a high-quality non-synthetic 80W 90 hypoid ol



GL-5

This classification is also common and can be used in all axles, even in severe conditions. This oil provides the best overall protection, so just buying GL-5 rated oil for all axles is recommended.

[gerno]

I've heard this before. I'm running a locker in the rear, do you think it still applies since I don't have clutches?

[gerno]

This morning I changed the setting on all the shocks to ~25% all around from ~75%. Now the car is very comfortable to drive and there is a noticeable change to the rear grip. It can still break them loose but not as much. I haven't launched the car hard since I was driving to work but certainly better. I'll keep playing with it.

Only issue found is the rear tire rubbing some times with the softer setting. I think I need to look at getting a 1/4" rear spacer to swap out for the current 1/2"

[CURVES]

Where is it rubbing and how much space do you have between the tire and inner well?

[rickpaw]

I agree. If nothing else I'm looking into some track days at MSR in Houston. You down to join?

I'm in. It will be my first track day though, but who cares. I build the car to run track days.

Next one up at MSR (thru driver's edge) is next weekend. Next one up is first weekend of October, but that falls into FW Goodguys.

[gerno]

Where is it rubbing and how much space do you have between the tire and inner well?

There is maybe 1" at the inner well were the flare starts. It only really rubs when the car is articulated.

I'm in. It will be my first track day though, but who cares. I build the car to run track days.

Next one up at MSR (thru driver's edge) is next weekend. Next one up is first weekend of October, but that falls into FW Goodguys.

I din't realize it was next weekend. I'll check out the site and see if there is still space to join. Let me know if you sign up.

[rickpaw]

I din't realize it was next weekend. I'll check out the site and see if there is still space to join. Let me know if you sign up.

I'm not sure about next weekend. I doubt I will sign up as the wife is out of the country for work the next 2 weeks, and I will be home with the kids.

[gerno]

A little update on the brakes and the overall project.

Last week I ordered up in axle tube seals and installed them over the weekend. this also gave me a chance to pull the pumpkin out and make sure everything was looking good. I installed the seals and pulled the hubs apart one more time to repack the grease. In general the install took a while but was uneventful. I also cleaned off the pads and rotors really well. It was a snug fit for the seals so hopefully I don't have to pull them out anytime soon...

I also changed out the 1/2" rear wheel spacers for 1/4" spacers. After I got it all together I took it for ~10 mile drive to check it all out. Got home and sure enough more grease was on the rotors. Good news is the outer tire was not rubbing anymore. Plan was to head to an autocross on sunday but after seeing that I opened up a few beers and called it a day....

Next day I put the car up on stands and checked it out again. I didn't see any visible leaks from the seals so I decided to just clean the hell out of everything and try it again. I also noticed the wheels were actually rubbing on the inner wheel wells now... I was shocked since there is ~3/4" clearance. I assume under hard cornering there is a bit of body roll since the pan hard bar should be holding the axle very still

I picked up ~5 cans of brake cleaner and sprayed the hell out of all the rotors with focus on cleaning the vanes and the pads. I also decided to go ahead and use a butane torch to heat the pads in case oil/grease is embedded in the pads. Sure enough while heating them up I could see a slight amount of oil bubbling out of the pads. After al this I also bled the brakes one more time to ensure it was completely solid. I bolted the wheels back on and went for a drive.

Sure enough the brakes were MUCH better. The pedal was more firm and the car really slowed under hard braking. I got them a little warm but I don't think it was enough to put some real heat in them. I got home and sure enough no oil on the rotors... SUCCESS... ( I also followed this up with a commute to and from work...still no oil) :D

[gerno]

In other news it's time to spend some $$$ :G-Dub:

I found someone who wants the current SBC for a decent price. It's coming out this weekend....:superhack:

This means the spending spree is about to begin for the LS swap.... I'm working on a plan for the swap now with a goal to get it done over July 4 holiday so the car is ready for a Track day July 19. It's very aggressive but that's my goal....

At first I was thinking to buy the complete Holley kit but after seeing some install threads I'm not willing to take my chance with it.

Next thought is to work with Speedtech and see what they have. I spoke with Jay and they are working on the kit now. He says they have the headers at the shop and are working to build up some custom first pass pedestals. He's going to contact me later this week to update me one how they are proceeding with the fitment in his car..

If Speedtech doesn't work out in time I think I've decided on this setup.... Any feedback is appreciated....

Kooks headers
Dirty Dingo Mounts
Factory clamshell engine mounts already being used
Mast Oil pan with oil cooler setup (maybe Speedtech or others)
Trying the factory 2010 Camaro accy's - most likely need to move the aLt.
Retain current radiator and elect fans
PSI wiring harness
Spectre air intake (not sure if others are better)
6AN braided fuel lines with Vette regulator near fuel tank
Swapping fuel tank - either a used Ricks tank, Tanks Inc or ATL fuel cell -- debating
340 or 400LPH fuel pump
Quicktime bellhousing
Factory Flywheel and clutch (for now)
Speedtech Hydraulic clutch bracket with factory style clutch and throwout -- May use a Tick setup...

[GregWeld]

First off --- Good to hear you got the bug worked out!! Good job!



Secondly.... I want you to meet my daughter. She's spending all her time at SW's... LOL So either email me or get her contact info from SW. She's living at the Domain... and could use a cold beer. :>)

[gerno]

First off --- Good to hear you got the bug worked out!! Good job!




Secondly.... I want you to meet my daughter. She's spending all her time at SW's... LOL So either email me or get her contact info from SW. She's living at the Domain... and could use a cold beer. :>)

Thanks, getting closer. I'll be interested to know what the next bit of fun on the car will be.... it's always something...

Typically most fathers tell me to stay AWAY from their daughters but in this case I'd be glad to meet up with her and grab some beers. I think you have my number but if not I'll IM it to you.

Thinking of... I assume your going to need a new shed in Austin for your visits with her. I know you wouldn't want the rig to sit in the pouring rain that always follows you. It would be difficult but I'd be happy to watch it over while your not here so the rodent population stays in check. Only thing I ask is that you keep it within 10 min of downtown please.......

[GregWeld]

Thanks, getting closer. I'll be interested to know what the next bit of fun on the car will be.... it's always something...

Typically most fathers tell me to stay AWAY from their daughters but in this case I'd be glad to meet up with her and grab some beers. I think you have my number but if not I'll IM it to you.

Thinking of... I assume your going to need a new shed in Austin for your visits with her. I know you wouldn't want the rig to sit in the pouring rain that always follows you. It would be difficult but I'd be happy to watch it over while your not here so the rodent population stays in check. Only thing I ask is that you keep it within 10 min of downtown please.......




HAHAHAHAHAHA great reply!


IM me -- I was sure I had your number but only had email... she's a "texter"


Gwen and I will be showing up at a race track near you -- TMS -- in October. I might snow.

[clill]

Vaporworks.......

[GregWeld]

Vaporworks.......



Crap! Finally something we agree about - other than how you look.....


Vaporworks for the win.

[rickpaw]

+1 for Vaporworx.

You'll love the LS engine. It's the way to go IMO. What kind of motor are you going with, crate LS or junk yard set up?

[glassman]

X3 on the Vaporworx setup. My Ricks is nice, and the other two you mentioned are good as well, but the Vaporworx is great. If i had it to do over again, Vaporworx.

At t-hill last month, i experience two "just" hiccups at turns 12/13/14 at a half a tank, maybe it was 1/4 tank, you wont have that problem with the Vaporworx.

So, i'd recommend the SW headers, i just didn't like the way the Kooks came across the top on the drivers side (iirc). Hopefully Speedtech can come through with the kit. My Dynatechs fit fine, a little low, but fine. The Hooker stuff for the newer 2nd gens has another 1" of ground clearance and dont have the flange in the way.....

But the list looks good. Should be straight forward. I used the Holley mounts (per Keiths recomendation) but i'd use the Wegner or Vintage set up in the future, keeps everything well above(the power steering) the pitman on our
cars.

[glassman]

Oh, and one more thing, i used the standard F body oil pan and it works fine. I experienced no drop in oil pressure during turn 2 (long left turn) at t-hill, thats where i thought i'd have an issue. I just gave her a 1/2 quart more of love....

[carbuff]

Since I'm spending your money, Ricks + Vaporworx! :) I also added the fuel pump controller since I was losing pressure at higher RPM. Very happy with the setup now!

[gerno]

X3 on the Vaporworx setup. My Ricks is nice, and the other two you mentioned are good as well, but the Vaporworx is great. If i had it to do over again, Vaporworx.

At t-hill last month, i experience two "just" hiccups at turns 12/13/14 at a half a tank, maybe it was 1/4 tank, you wont have that problem with the Vaporworx.

So, i'd recommend the SW headers, i just didn't like the way the Kooks came across the top on the drivers side (iirc). Hopefully Speedtech can come through with the kit. My Dynatechs fit fine, a little low, but fine. The Hooker stuff for the newer 2nd gens has another 1" of ground clearance and dont have the flange in the way.....

But the list looks good. Should be straight forward. I used the Holley mounts (per Keiths recomendation) but i'd use the Wegner or Vintage set up in the future, keeps everything well above(the power steering) the pitman on our
cars.

I'll check out the differences in the Kooks vs the Stainless works. I spoke with the guys at Kooks and they said they have ~1/2-3/4" clearance to the floor pans which makes me think they should work well with my 1/2 height body mounts.

Oh, and one more thing, i used the standard F body oil pan and it works fine. I experienced no drop in oil pressure during turn 2 (long left turn) at t-hill, thats where i thought i'd have an issue. I just gave her a 1/2 quart more of love....


I was thinking the mast pan since it also makes adding the oil cooler easy. I already have the cooler there and certainly want to run it with my plans for the track

Vaporworks.......

Crap! Finally something we agree about - other than how you look.....


Vaporworks for the win.

Since I'm spending your money, Ricks + Vaporworx! :) I also added the fuel pump controller since I was losing pressure at higher RPM. Very happy with the setup now!

Sounds like I'm going to once again completely blow my budget by getting the vaporworx tank. At least I think so, I still need to crunch a few more numbers....



+1 for Vaporworx.

You'll love the LS engine. It's the way to go IMO. What kind of motor are you going with, crate LS or junk yard set up?

I've got a junkyard LS with a Night Fury cam already installed. the engine should only have ~28k mile but I still need to tear it down and check it out. Based on dyno data I see on the web it should make ~480hp and 450lbs/ft at the wheels which sounds perfect to me.

[carbuff]

I'll check out the differences in the Kooks vs the Stainless works. I spoke with the guys at Kooks and they said they have ~1/2-3/4" clearance to the floor pans which makes me think they should work well with my 1/2 height body mounts.

Wait, were those numbers with 1/2 height bushings or with full height bushings? If they were with full height, and you cut that in half, wouldn't they hit the floor pan? :headscratch:

[gerno]

Wait, were those numbers with 1/2 height bushings or with full height bushings? If they were with full height, and you cut that in half, wouldn't they hit the floor pan? :headscratch:

They were with full height. It will be close but I think they just might fit with 1/2 height. I need to measure more.... Worse case I'm willing to build a little floor pan hump for the sake of clearance

[rickpaw]

I've got a junkyard LS with a Night Fury cam already installed. the engine should only have ~28k mile but I still need to tear it down and check it out. Based on dyno data I see on the web it should make ~480hp and 450lbs/ft at the wheels which sounds perfect to me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm thinking of getting another 5.3 take out and beef it up. I've ran across several on craigslist for cheap.

[gerno]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm thinking of getting another 5.3 take out and beef it up. I've ran across several on craigslist for cheap.

There should be plenty of junk yards in Houston to grab a good 5.3 You should just negotiate a good price on this one...

http://houston.craigslist.org/pts/4537593468.html

[rickpaw]

There should be plenty of junk yards in Houston to grab a good 5.3 You should just negotiate a good price on this one...

http://houston.craigslist.org/pts/4537593468.html

Haha. I'd like to stay married. :)

I'm looking at a 6.0 take out on CL with 157k miles right now with all accessories. The guy is asking $600 for it. Wondering if I should jump on it.

[gerno]

Haha. I'd like to stay married. :)

I'm looking at a 6.0 take out on CL with 157k miles right now with all accessories. The guy is asking $600 for it. Wondering if I should jump on it.

That sounds like a pretty good deal. The question I see from most everyone when it come to 6.0 is if it the early or late one. I think there are differences in the cranks that can cause issues. You should be able to google it since i an far from any expert.

[rickpaw]

That sounds like a pretty good deal. The question I see from most everyone when it come to 6.0 is if it the early or late one. I think there are differences in the cranks that can cause issues. You should be able to google it since i an far from any expert.

It's an early one (2002) and thus may have piston slap. My 5.3 is a 2002 and the pistons slap quite a bit until oil pressure builds up (after 40s or so).

Think I'm going to pass on it.

[gerno]

Next steps on the project have begun. The SBC has been pulled and will be picked up today. I need to decide how much firewall cleanup I may do and possible wiring rerouting. I may also pull the entire subframe and swap it out due to the issue with the alignment and the fact that I need to set the panel gaps anyways. Still trying to figure that issue out. In the meantime I'm going to get the LS3 opened up a little to make sure everything is still in good shape there.

So far I've ordered up an oil pan from Pacific Fabrication and am placing an order for a hydraulic clutch kit from Vince. More parts are also going to be ordered up today.

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[glassman]

What are you thinking with the subframe?

When Keith did my suspension and front end work, i dunno if you saw the pics or not, but he swapped out the sub, stitched welded it, built the triangular "housings" for the coil-overs, then powder. IMO, it handles pretty close to a c-5 less the wide tires, which are next.

Is this what "they" call scope creep?

You goin A/C?

[gerno]

What are you thinking with the subframe?

When Keith did my suspension and front end work, i dunno if you saw the pics or not, but he swapped out the sub, stitched welded it, built the triangular "housings" for the coil-overs, then powder. IMO, it handles pretty close to a c-5 less the wide tires, which are next.

Is this what "they" call scope creep?

You goin A/C?

I already installed the Speedtech coil over mounts but from talking with Blake and a few other people the factory perch seemed to be in the wrong place so it won't align to Speedtech specs. My thought for the replacement frame is to install another mount (Blake offered a replacement) and also go ahead and stich weld and reinforce it more than what I've already done. Mine handles nice but I need to pull another 1 degree out of the base alignment

[glassman]

Just left you a vm regarding the t-56 issues you may have....

[gerno]

The old engine is officially gone and the cash is in hand. Today I decided to tear into the LS3 to check it out. First inspection everything was looking very clean. I the noticed a bit a wear on all the exhaust valve stems. Not something I like but not a show stopper. Next I checked out the intake and there is a decent amount of oil in the intake ports. I assume due to crank vent. The last thing I did was check the main bearings. Here I found a show stopper. Bearings have clear signs of debre passing through and the crank is rough.

I'm going to just tear the whole thing down. My buddy is a crank grinder in Houston so I'll have him check it out. At a min I'll do all new bearings and rings plus full arp hardware to hold it together. If the crank is too far gone or stroked kit is a decent price I may up the cubes too. Before this I do need to pull the heads and check the bore measurements. They look good underneath but hard to say for sure

I probably should have done this long ago but oh we'll, I know now....

[GregWeld]

You get that motor for FREE? Steve.


Probably cheaper to just buy a GM crate motor and get a warranty with it... I think I'm in the LS3 480hp motor built by Don Hardy Jr. for the '33 about $10,400
and I think that included the controller and harness...

He's not far from you.... might be worth a call to see if he has something lying around and maybe he'd take yours in on some kind of deal.

[gerno]

I'm going to go through this one and get it back to right. I'm not too concerned. I haven't played with an LS before but have played with lots of others. I also have access to a full machine shop so overall cost to rebuil it stock shouldn't be too much assume nothing's way out of spec. $10k is way out of my budget.

[gerno]

But you do make a good point. If I'm thinking to stroke it it would probably be cheaper to buy the crate motor than to buy an expensive core, all the stroker parts and to pay for machine work. My only benefit is parts at shop cost and free machining... I'll most likely not stroke it and use the money elsewhere

[rickpaw]

Steve,

If you need a cheap LS motor, several JY in Houston have 5.3 truck long blocks for cheap, even with 3 mo warranty. I got my 5.3 from one of those JY, and it's been running good so far.

[gerno]

Steve,

If you need a cheap LS motor, several JY in Houston have 5.3 truck long blocks for cheap, even with 3 mo warranty. I got my 5.3 from one of those JY, and it's been running good so far.

I'll let you know if things turn really bad but for now I'm not worried. The fix for this engine shouldn't be too bad. Thinking a pushrod length check and the crank assessment. I've run worse engines in the past but figured I should go ahead and make this one right while it's out.

[gerno]

I'm starting to feel a little better about the engine. After I pull the heads tomorrow I'll post up some pics. I don't think it's really that bad. I should be able to get it better than new for well under $1K including part upgrades. I pulled the rod caps today and the bearing look almost new. I also found it has a melling high volume pump inside. I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons the mains are a mess. I bet it sucked the pan dry....

It does have other nice parts like the Lethal Performance Night Fury cam, hardened pushrods and upgrade timing chain and LS2 timing dampener. Too bad they did the oil pump too...

I still need to pull the heads but I'm pretty confident it will look nice inside

Plan for it is to pull the heads since I need to to get the crank out. I'll go ahead and get a competition valve job done. I'll add ARP head bolts, and have the mains on the crank cut .010. I've been debating ARP main studs. I'll most likely not swap them out because I don't think the benefit is there and I don't really want to go through the line honing. Free free to tell me if I'm wrong.... I'll put an underdrive SFI balancer on the nose, Billet flywheel on the back, ARP dampener bolt and flywheel bolts, trunion upgrade for the rockers and see what I can do for oil drain passage cleanup. I'll also swap out the high volume pump for a high pressure pump.

[Flash68]

Steve you went to the dark side. :getout:

[gerno]

Steve you went to the dark side. :getout:

I sure have, it was too hard to resist with all the benefits.. Now I'm just trying to stay away from your general build path where everything must be biggest and most powerful I can find while I freshen the engine up.

[carbuff]

It's all those bad influences around here.... :)

[GregWeld]

Steve you went to the dark side. :getout:



Some folks just aren't hide bound and want to move forward with cutting edge technology and weird science kinda stuff like fuel injection....



LOL

[syborg tt]

Ya know I would have just sold you my camaro it would have saved you a whole lot of time.


I'm starting to feel a little better about the engine. After I pull the heads tomorrow I'll post up some pics. I don't think it's really that bad. I should be able to get it better than new for well under $1K including part upgrades. I pulled the rod caps today and the bearing look almost new. I also found it has a melling high volume pump inside. I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons the mains are a mess. I bet it sucked the pan dry....

It does have other nice parts like the Lethal Performance Night Fury cam, hardened pushrods and upgrade timing chain and LS2 timing dampener. Too bad they did the oil pump too...

I still need to pull the heads but I'm pretty confident it will look nice inside

Plan for it is to pull the heads since I need to to get the crank out. I'll go ahead and get a competition valve job done. I'll add ARP head bolts, and have the mains on the crank cut .010. I've been debating ARP main studs. I'll most likely not swap them out because I don't think the benefit is there and I don't really want to go through the line honing. Free free to tell me if I'm wrong.... I'll put an underdrive SFI balancer on the nose, Billet flywheel on the back, ARP dampener bolt and flywheel bolts, trunion upgrade for the rockers and see what I can do for oil drain passage cleanup. I'll also swap out the high volume pump for a high pressure pump.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I also found it has a melling high volume pump inside. I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons the mains are a mess. I bet it sucked the pan dry....



im leaning towards it wasn't installed correctly. Unless its got an L99 replacment it should be good. Whats the tag number on it?

[gerno]

Ya know I would have just sold you my camaro it would have saved you a whole lot of time.

But then what would I do in my spare time.....


im leaning towards it wasn't installed correctly. Unless its got an L99 replacment it should be good. Whats the tag number on it?

im leaning towards it wasn't installed correctly. Unless its got an L99 replacment it should be good. Whats the tag number on it?

Are you talking about the tag number for the pump or one on the engine? The Pump PN is 10296

[ks71z28]

Love to hear your opinion of the Speedtech TA rear suspension. We I am a Speedtech dealer, and was under the impression that the set up was a bit more "tested" and developed. Aparently there are only about a dozen units sold over the last 7 years. We (Custom Works Performance) installed one in my 71, and are overall happy with the installation, but the performance gain hasn't been fully achieved yet. We are making some alterations to the set up to try and improve a few things. I did a floated 9", and the noise tranmitted up the torque arm is a bit excessive. If you get a chance shoot me a message or email, I would like to hear your feedback

Keith
CustomWorksPerfomance.net

Thanks for all the positive responses




The car current does work pretty well and I know it already exceeds my driving. All the new parts were far from "cheap" but hopefully I'm building a reliable foundation to help improve my driving skills.



Thanks it's been a very fun car so far. I've learned a lot from it and the advice on the board. Hoping I can start to give back a little.



My goal is to have the new updates to the car complete well before you get your engine installed.... If I take a day off work I think I could even get it done before dyno day....:twak:




Thanks. I'm still bummed I didn't get to meet up with you to get a little driving advice and see your car before I left town for Texas.


Here are some pics of the parts.

TA kit
41571

Ridetech Coilovers

41572

Speedway housing

415734157441576


Brakes - I'll work on a better pic tonight

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[CURVES]

I'd like to hear feedback on the torque arm as well.

I just began mocking mine up (I must have bought lucky 13. Lol)

So far I'm concerned with the fit of the rear x member, I will add plates to the frame to correct. Also it doesn't look like the trans can be dropped without un bolting the subframe.

The noise is something I hadn't considered. Keith, I'd be interested in hearing about any mods and results.

[ks71z28]

I'd like to hear feedback on the torque arm as well.

I just began mocking mine up (I must have bought lucky 13. Lol)

So far I'm concerned with the fit of the rear x member, I will add plates to the frame to correct. Also it doesn't look like the trans can be dropped without un bolting the subframe.

The noise is something I hadn't considered. Keith, I'd be interested in hearing about any mods and results.

The rear X member is about 3/4" or so too wide. I welded 1/4" strips in, then welded x member to it. Trans should be able to be removed without issues. I would like to see the front x member made in two pieces, it was a PITA to install, and if you have sf connectors, good luck!

[CURVES]

I think you mean too short, I know what you mean though. I also cut 1/4" thick strips.

I'm using a T56 magnum, maybe a bit bigger than the five speed. I definitely agree with the idea of a two or even three piece design for the x member.

I watched the Fontana video and can't really tell what noise is coming thru the torque arm, how bad is it?

[ks71z28]

yes too short. 3 piece x member would be better. The noise is too much for a street car. Image your rear gear whine, but sitting next to you! The TA just transmits the noise into the floor right where you sit. In the next few months we are going to make a new front x member, and fix the panhard bar and maybe make a watts link. The trailing arms are too long as well. i have them set as short as they will go, and the tire is still back from stock.

[CURVES]

Not what I wanted to hear:confused18:

I hate throwing money away......

Do you have much or any sound deadening?

What is the panhard issue?

And

Is there a solution for the trailing arms?

[ks71z28]

I have a whole roll of sound deadener, and full interior. Panhard bar is at a slight angle, and i don't know why. You can lengthen trailing arms to line it up, but the frame end is about 1.5" too far back in relation to the mount on the rear end. No way to fix the trailing arms, unless they can be taken apart and shortened. Don't get me wrong, this set up is as good as most set ups on the market, which also need some work or have draw backs in function or design. I'm not unhappy with the set up, but it is my nature to improve it. The noise is a big issue though

[CURVES]

Well, all for the love of the hobby!

The explanation for the rear x member width is to accommodate the variances in the cars. Hopefully some variances fall in my favor.

I'll clamp everything together during mock-up and see what happens, it looks like the spring pockets can be moved forward a little which may help.

The noise.....I guess when you think about it it's basically a huge tuning fork from the car rearend straight to the driver rearend. lol

I was talked out of using a 3.70 rear gear because of the noise, I ended up with a 3.89.

Steve, what is your noise like? Btw, sorry if I'm jacking your thread:hello:

[gerno]

No issues jacking the thread. You guy pretty much nailed all the issues I ran across.



Trailing arms too long, actually having 325/19's rub on the rear inner wheel well I think. I'm a bit nervous I may cut the tire...
Panhard/coil over x-member too short - I added 1/8" plate on both sides but could have gone bigger
Not enough adjustment in the pan hard. I have the bar at full adjust and it isn't level. Need to raise the axle mount or lower the frame mount.
To Kieth's point Panhard does not look straight but I have not measured to confirm
Front ATS spindles - no steering stops - caused me a grind both front wheel lips on the inside when they hit the sway bar. I'm also running 10.5" wheels which are larger than recommended but a stop needs to be added.
Front coil over. It would have been nice to have the spring adjuster at the bottom instead of the top for ride height changes. The hole for the dampener adj could also be larger on the LCA.
Instructions and pics given are very bad. There are some critical measurements where a good pic is needed. Jay and Roger are very helpful on the phone but still it sucks to have to call.


As far as noise, it's hard to say in my car. I have a full float with a locker and not much sound control. My car is much less noisy than with my leafs but sometimes I do hear some small clunks. To me it's really a non issue.

Biggest issue to me was getting the front crossmemeber in place. I blamed it on the 1/2 height body mounts but an interested to know if Keith is running standard or 1/2 height. I also still haven't figured out the front UCA mount causing an alignment issue. I pulled the engine so will be measuring and calling Blake to get some more advice.

All this being said, I still love the way the drives and the overall fitment is very clean compared to other TA's I have seen. I would certainly do it again.


In other news the parts are starting to arrive for the LS swap. Picked up a Pacific Fab oil pan, as well as a hydraulic clutch kit and some engine plates from Meanstreets (Vince) All look very nice...
49117

49118

49119

I decided to pull all the front sheet metal for 2 reasons. First the door gaps were too tight and caused a big paint chip after I had to cut the frame for the Speedtech mount. Second, I assume I'll be test fitting a lot of stuff and need to rewire anyways so best to have everything cleared out...

49120



Here is what I believe will be the engine combo.. The goal is an engine that is easy on valve train with ~500RWHP and a flat torque curve.

Block - Factory LS3 - .05 over to torque plate and hone for new pistons
Piston - Wiesco K398X7
Rod - Callies 6.125 H beam
Crank - Factory cut .010 rod and main and back to perfect
Balancer - Either ATI or power bond under drive.
Flywheel - SFI Billet - debating alum or steel
LS3 heads
TEA CNC ported and valves cut/blueprinted
Brian Tooley to blend ports and install springs
BTR 660 springs and titanium retainers


Factory rockers with upgraded trunions
Lifters - Discussing using the Johnston tie bar lifters
Custom Cam from BTR
Intake - Factory LS3 intake and TB for now.
Headers - - 1 7/8 Long tube - Kooks or Stainless Works. Checking to see if AR has a set too
Head gasket - factory LS3 MLS gasket
Head bolt - ARP bolts
Oil pan - Pacific Fabrication 6 qt with road race baffle and windage
External oil cooler
Oil pump - Melling 10296 HV - already have and been assured it should not be an issues. Smoothed the input port with a die grinder and planning to change to low pressure spring
Timing chain - GM 12586481 upper gear with LS2 tensioner
Air/oil separator for PCV - most likely Moroso piece, still debating

[ks71z28]

Man, i wish you would have got our coilover conversion for the front. It is really a great piece, and the shock and adjusters are in the perfect spot. I'm not impressed with the Speedtech coilover kit.

[CURVES]

Thanks for the info Steve.

That's gonna be a nice motor, pretty much the same motor I stuck in my '69 and made it real close to 500 rwhp.

I've got my front shocks mounted with the spring adjuster at the bottom. I can't see any way to adjust ride height with them at the top.

I bought the Stainless Works headers, they are designed using 1" setback plates (which they come with) and the earlier stand type frame mounts. Your new plates look like stock position, which makes sense because of your existing setup. Having said that, the headers have a lot of clearance and probably would work fine. My concern would be ground clearance. It looks like the clamshells may put the motor lower than the stand style mounts. The headers are beautiful and were only 800.00 to my door.

I see an easy and potentially very clean way to mod my front x member and have it mount to the inside of the frame. I'm still on the drawing board, I'm waiting on Speedway for my rearend housing. I'll mock everything up as intended before cutting anything.

I think after we iron out all the little issues, the cars will be pretty badass! :welder:

[gerno]

Man, i wish you would have got our coilover conversion for the front. It is really a great piece, and the shock and adjusters are in the perfect spot. I'm not impressed with the Speedtech coilover kit.

Your kit looks very similar to Speedtech's just without as much material in the middle. I thought about cutting them open a bit but decided not to. I don't typically change the ride height so wasn't very concerned. What are the overall differences between yours and Speedtech's?

Thanks for the info Steve.

That's gonna be a nice motor, pretty much the same motor I stuck in my '69 and made it real close to 500 rwhp.

I've got my front shocks mounted with the spring adjuster at the bottom. I can't see any way to adjust ride height with them at the top.

I bought the Stainless Works headers, they are designed using 1" setback plates (which they come with) and the earlier stand type frame mounts. Your new plates look like stock position, which makes sense because of your existing setup. Having said that, the headers have a lot of clearance and probably would work fine. My concern would be ground clearance. It looks like the clamshells may put the motor lower than the stand style mounts. The headers are beautiful and were only 800.00 to my door.

I see an easy and potentially very clean way to mod my front x member and have it mount to the inside of the frame. I'm still on the drawing board, I'm waiting on Speedway for my rearend housing. I'll mock everything up as intended before cutting anything.

I think after we iron out all the little issues, the cars will be pretty badass! :welder:

Good to know the engine combo sounds about right.

I could easily flip the shocks but don't want to worry about trying to get my hands in the mount to adjust them. While the hole at the bottom is tight, at least I can also reach over it.....

I'm not sure how the engine plates will work with the clamshells and headers. Vince said hen hadn't tried them either but was nice enough to send them out to test out. I'll find out soon enough. Vince has given me a lot of good advice so I have no issues testing out some parts. How much clearance to the floor the the SW headers have? I called them and they thought my 1/2 body mounts would be an issue... That's why I'm leaning to Kooks... Where did you get SW's for $800??

I also thought to change the front x-member. The only issue is with exhaust clearance really. I also like how the mount is directly against the floor support to take the upwards load on the TA. I'm no an engineer but at least makes me feel confident in it. I chose to cut and bolt the frame together like Stielow does instead. Looking back after all the cutting I did to every else maybe i should have simply clearances the floor or notched the frame a bit....

The first time you ride in the car after switching from leafs you will be happy...

[CURVES]

So I looked at my header clearance and I have 1.25" between the header and the floor. From the stand mounting surface on the frame to the face of the adapter plate there is 3.5".

I think you'd be ok on the gap to the floor with the 1/2 height body mounts and if the clamshell setup is about the same 3.5" the SW's should work.....maybe lol

I bought the headers on sale at Colorado Speed. Looks like they are $867 right now.

They hang a little lower than I thought they would but they don't hang lower than the QuickTime bell or the gforce crossmember. So I guess I'm good with that....

[WSSix]

Steve, couple things pop into my head with your setup. First, what drive shaft do you have? It needs to be able to handle the power/torque and RPMs you'll be turning with the LS3. Second, I would try to find a billet steel flywheel if it's lighter than the stock LS3 unit. I don't know what they weight. I have an AL behind my LT1. It's much better than the cast factory flywheel but it definitely doesn't hit the tires on launch like the stock piece did. This is do to the less inertia it carries which also helps it to rev quicker. Given the chance to do it again, I'd try for billet steel if available since it is lighter than stock but not as light as AL.

Good luck.

[gerno]

So I looked at my header clearance and I have 1.25" between the header and the floor. From the stand mounting surface on the frame to the face of the adapter plate there is 3.5".

I think you'd be ok on the gap to the floor with the 1/2 height body mounts and if the clamshell setup is about the same 3.5" the SW's should work.....maybe lol

I bought the headers on sale at Colorado Speed. Looks like they are $867 right now.

They hang a little lower than I thought they would but they don't hang lower than the QuickTime bell or the gforce crossmember. So I guess I'm good with that....

Thanks for taking the time to get those measurements.

I measured up the clamshells on the mounts in the car. They are ~3 1/4 from the frame to the back side of the shell. Pretty close to your measurements given there was also so slop with the bolts.

Given the measurements you provided and a good point Mike made to me about flanges catching on things more than slip joints I'm really reconsidering the SW over Kooks. The price at you showed me certainly doesn't hurt either....



Steve, couple things pop into my head with your setup. First, what drive shaft do you have? It needs to be able to handle the power/torque and RPMs you'll be turning with the LS3. Second, I would try to find a billet steel flywheel if it's lighter than the stock LS3 unit. I don't know what they weight. I have an AL behind my LT1. It's much better than the cast factory flywheel but it definitely doesn't hit the tires on launch like the stock piece did. This is do to the less inertia it carries which also helps it to rev quicker. Given the chance to do it again, I'd try for billet steel if available since it is lighter than stock but not as light as AL.

Good luck.

I currently have an alumn shaft with spicer joints. It was custom made when I swapped the axle. I'm hoping worse case I need to cut it for the LS but hopefully no change at all...

The issue you discuss with the flywheel is my concern as well. I've never run an alum flywheel but have ofter heard the same issue you note above. Do you know the weight of the stock flywheel? I'll most likely use a billet steel version based on the same issues you state but am still curious if others have the same opinion as you.

[rickpaw]

Given the measurements you provided and a good point Mike made to me about flanges catching on things more than slip joints I'm really reconsidering the SW over Kooks. The price at you showed me certainly doesn't hurt either....



Steve,

If you're considering Stainless Works headers, these guys have them, with 15% off coupon as well, or try deal20 for 20% off. The 20% off expires tomorrow.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts-mufflers/61A5716A0A0.aspx

[gerno]

Steve,

If you're considering Stainless Works headers, these guys have them, with 15% off coupon as well, or try deal20 for 20% off. The 20% off expires tomorrow.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts-mufflers/61A5716A0A0.aspx

Be careful with that link if you are ordering for a gen 2. The price is really good but they have the gen 1 part number listed incorrectly.

[rickpaw]

Be careful with that link if you are ordering for a gen 2. The price is really good but they have the gen 1 part number listed incorrectly.

Ha, didn't pay attention to the p/n. I just put in the search for 70 Camaro.

How's your swap coming?

[CURVES]

I hate it when that happens!

I'm sure you know the correct number is ca7081ls1.

[WSSix]

Do you know the weight of the stock flywheel? I'll most likely use a billet steel version based on the same issues you state but am still curious if others have the same opinion as you.

No idea what a factory LS3 flywheel weighs. It looks to be a better quality casting than my LT1 flywheel. A billet steel piece may not be that much lighter but I think it's worth investigating.

[gerno]

A small update on my latest changes.

In general I've been spending far too much $$$$$. I ordered up a few parts


Quicktime bell housing
New fittings for my oil lines including a remote oil filter
New PFTE fuel lines and fittings
Vaporworx tank with a ZL1 pump
Custom cam
Link bar lifters
BTR 660 springs with titanium retainers
New pistons, rods and bearings
New rocker arms and trunion upgrades
Stainless Works headers - hoping they fit....
All ARP fasteners


I'll be picking up the block and rotating assembly from my Houston tomorrow. Block has was honed to fit the pistons and just cleaned up. The rotating assembly is now balanced and a keyway was added to the crank for the balancer.

Heads are now in OH at TEA getting a CNC port before they go to BTR for final blending and assembly. Hopefully they will be back in 2-3 weeks.

I'm still debating to have the harness rebuilt as a stand alone or to simply get one from PSI. Rebuilt cost will be 325 including some missing connectors vs PSI cost at 570. Part of me says just get the new one to ensure there are no issues... but savings is pretty good for rebuilding.... Any thoughts?

I'm also debating on the clutch. The factory clutch is in good shape with only some rust on the flywheel that can be cleaned up. Part of me says to use this but I am also seriously thinking to get a Monster clutch dual clutch setup so I don't have to worry about anything.... It's a lot of coin but its made in Texas so the quality should be pretty good.....

[syborg tt]

Part of me says just get the new one to ensure there are no issues... but savings is pretty good for rebuilding.... Any thoughts?

I am pretty sure you know the answer - get the new one. The cost saving isn't worth it.

[carbuff]

Part of me says to use this but I am also seriously thinking to get a Monster clutch dual clutch setup so I don't have to worry about anything....

I can't speak to that one specifically, but in general, replacing a clutch SUCKS! Words to ponder... ;)

[Flash68]

I'm also debating on the clutch. The factory clutch is in good shape with only some rust on the flywheel that can be cleaned up. Part of me says to use this but I am also seriously thinking to get a Monster clutch dual clutch setup so I don't have to worry about anything.... It's a lot of coin but its made in Texas so the quality should be pretty good.....

Dang. Awesome parts list. You really are blowing it out of the water. I guess that drop in cost of living from CA to TX is really helping this project.... :D

So what is the current clutch and its condition?

I am pretty sure you know the answer - get the new one. The cost saving isn't worth it.

Yeppers.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

meh, put a new disc in it if everything looks. start upgrading after you break the engine in. Its a wear item.

[gerno]

I am pretty sure you know the answer - get the new one. The cost saving isn't worth it.

I can't speak to that one specifically, but in general, replacing a clutch SUCKS! Words to ponder... ;)

Dang. Awesome parts list. You really are blowing it out of the water. I guess that drop in cost of living from CA to TX is really helping this project.... :D

So what is the current clutch and its condition?



Yeppers.


I figured this would be the answer. I't s like asking a crack dealer if I should buy more drugs.....

The flywheel and PP have surface rust on them so need to be cleaned up. Overall the disk is not very worn at all. My only real concern is poor shifting at higher RPM's



meh, put a new disc in it if everything looks. start upgrading after you break the engine in. Its a wear item.

This is what I am thinking to do. I hear the factory clutch is the same as the LS7 which I'm told is pretty good although heavy as hell. I'm not sure of this...

[glassman]

I figured this would be the answer. I't s like asking a crack dealer if I should buy more drugs.....

The flywheel and PP have surface rust on them so need to be cleaned up. Overall the disk is not very worn at all. My only real concern is poor shifting at higher RPM's





This is what I am thinking to do. I hear the factory clutch is the same as the LS7 which I'm told is pretty good although heavy as hell. I'm not sure of this...

And you know with all these upgrades, and the "different" new type of power you have in the LS, you wont' be very "soft" on her. So yes, i concur, go with the baddest clutch u can. I'm beatin the snot outa mine (stock C5 Luk clutch) and so far so good, man its fun......

[Flash68]

Stainless Works headers - hoping they fit....


Hope you at least saved a few bucks... maybe more.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=46955

[gerno]

And you know with all these upgrades, and the "different" new type of power you have in the LS, you wont' be very "soft" on her. So yes, i concur, go with the baddest clutch u can. I'm beatin the snot outa mine (stock C5 Luk clutch) and so far so good, man its fun......

I agree it will be beat up pretty good. I'm excited to get it all done.

Hope you at least saved a few bucks... maybe more.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=46955

I got a very good deal on them. While the savings from Cali to TX is very good I do still need to save a few $$$ where possible

Thinking of spending $$$, I was checking out those C&R radiators like you have. The look spectacular and I really like the integrated cooler.... unfortunately I don't think that is quite in the budget yet....

[WSSix]

Steve,

saw this in Curtis's(spiffav8) thread. Page 8. Jeff posted it along with more engine build details. Thought of you when I saw it

will be installing a new ACT Sport/ Race 6 pad Clutch kit w/ ACT Prolite lightened flywheel

[gerno]

I've made a little bit of progress on the car but am still waiting on a few more parts.

I decided to go with a vaporware tank with a ZL1 pump. The guys at Ricks did a great job and were terrific to work with.

49899

I also received my SW headers. In general these are nice but there were a few things I noticed could have been improved. At the collector they pinched the tubes down and did not clean up the inside. Also on the primaries they could have done a better job cleaning the area after the welding too. Nothing huge that a die grinder and some time couldn't fix. I did use the plates they sent and the fitting of the block with the clam shell mounts seems to be perfect. I never pulled the trans so it's in the exact position it was with the SBC. It bolted up pretty well, only needed to move maybe 1/2" which was simple.

I am very glad it is an aluminum block. It makes test fitting things soooooo much easier. Next thing I need to work out is the Alt/PS mounting. I want to place the alternator on the pass side below the water pump where the A/C compressor used to be. I also want the PS down fairly low on the driver side almost like the SC PS. I need to fab up some mounts when I find some time


49900

49901

49902

49903

49904

49905

49906

Here is the factory 2010 Camaro mount with SW plates and Speedtech Pitman

49907
49908

Internal engine wise i have most of the parts. The block is honed for the new pistons, rotating assembly fully balanced with crank keyway added for the balancer. Custom cam from BTR is in along with the Johnson tie bar lifters. I'm only waiting on the heads.

TEA has the port and valve blueprint (45/50 angles) complete but also needed to change all the guides. Apparently they were completely worn out with only ~28k miles. BTR should have the heads now for final blend and assembly. I hope to get them back late next week.

Goal is to have the car running just after labor day. It's a bit of a stretch...

[GregWeld]

I'm surprised at those headers --- you're spot on -- the weld quality - and in fact the mounting holes are not what I would expect. Sloppy!


Glad it's coming together Steve! It better be up and running when I get there the end of September for Lonestar Nats!


Salt Lick and Franklins here we come!!

[Sieg]

The headers look like an apprentice may have done them. :headscratch:

[CURVES]

The headers look like an apprentice may have done them. :headscratch:

I think you may be right Sieg, certainly a different welder did mine. Also mine appear to have a different collector.

This is why I hate recommending parts or companies.

[Panteracer]

You think those headers have issues
one of the Pantera vendors had a bunch
of SS headers made up for Clevelands (yeah
that is a ford for those you don't know:)
One of my buddies ordered up a set and the cones
they installed in the collector where the four tubes
meet were off center so far he jumbed in his truck
and drove to the La to get a better set.. they
went thru a dozen sets before they found one that
was right.. also had cracking just down from the
header flanges..

Beware of what you buy and who made it...
worse of all check it as soon as you get it
not 3 years later when you are finally ready
to install them.. I've done that several times.. not good

Panteracer

[gerno]

I've seen worse parts before but I am glad I got them at a discounted price instead of paying the advertised price. I assume they will work fine but they definitely could be better. I suppose I should have contacted SW before I started to grind on them to see if they would replace them. I didn't think about it until I was almost done.

[gerno]

I'm surprised at those headers --- you're spot on -- the weld quality - and in fact the mounting holes are not what I would expect. Sloppy!


Glad it's coming together Steve! It better be up and running when I get there the end of September for Lonestar Nats!


Salt Lick and Franklins here we come!!

Car will be running by then, at least that's the goal. I think the Goodguys show is the weekend of Oct 4 which is the same as a good friends wedding. Unfortunately I'll be stuck in Austin. When you're down here I'm certainly up for one food and I know Brian has been anxiously waiting for you to return as well.

[gerno]

Finally think I have most of my parts for the new engine. Head arrived over the weekend and look very nice. I mocked the engine in place and am very happy with the placement of the engine and the header fitment. Everything is tucked up nicely. Even with 1/2 height body mounts I have ~1/2" between the collector and the floor pan. The pics aren't that good because it was loosely mocked up. Once I have it all together I'll take better pics.

I started filing the rings today for engine assembly, hopefully by the end of the week I'll have it complete.

I think the only real fab work I need to do is to build the alternator mount. I have a plan using some 1/4 plate with some 5/8x.120 DOM. Hopefully it works. I also decided an accusump was necessary so I need to figure out where to mount that beast too.


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50107

50108

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[GregWeld]

You only have about 3 weeks to get it done before I get down there!!

A few all nighters ought get 'er done!

[gerno]

You only have about 3 weeks to get it done before I get down there!!

A few all nighters ought get 'er done!

I think the only real issue is the alternator mount and the tuning. Are you headed to Austin or just Dallas? Y'all going to the Le Mans race?

[GregWeld]

I think the only real issue is the alternator mount and the tuning. Are you headed to Austin or just Dallas? Y'all going to the Le Mans race?



Coming from California with the Good-Guys Hall of Fame Tour to Ft Worth... then we're going down to Austin to see Adrienne and SW... So we'll all have to get together for some BBQ.

[gerno]

Coming from California with the Good-Guys Hall of Fame Tour to Ft Worth... then we're going down to Austin to see Adrienne and SW... So we'll all have to get together for some BBQ.

Some Salt Lick sounds good, I'll make sure Bryan knows too......

If you have a chance you should get here by Sept 19-20 for the Le Mans races they were the best I saw last year overall. I also think they will be running at night this year but would have to confirm that.

[GregWeld]

We depart Pleasanton CA Sept 25th... so will miss the LeMans at COTA. I have a busy October.... with the GG Lonestar Nats. Fly home - load the Rig... head for the NorCal Shelby event at Thunderhill... then I think we're heading for INDE Motorsports near Tucson for a charity event (the one I took Gwen's R8 to last time). Thinking about running the Lotus at that event. So basically October would be over by the time I got back home. LOL

Then it's time for TURKEY and skiing!! Yippppeeeeeeeeeee





Some Salt Lick sounds good, I'll make sure Bryan knows too......

If you have a chance you should get here by Sept 19-20 for the Le Mans races they were the best I saw last year overall. I also think they will be running at night this year but would have to confirm that.

[Flash68]

Lookin good Steve. About done yet? :popcorn2:

Certainly you can find some better company to hang with in Texas than Weld. :getout:

[gerno]

Lookin good Steve. About done yet? :popcorn2:

Certainly you can find some better company to hang with in Texas than Weld. :getout:

Closer than any blue car I know.....

I figure hanging out with Weld is like giving to charity. I'm doing a good thing for the world because new people aren't forced to interact with him.... :weld: :poke:



Spent most of tonight filing rings and working on the alternator mount. Here is a pic of the mount as it is. I used some 1/4 plate and have some 5/8x.120 DOM to use as a spacer for the bolts. Plan is the reinforce is back to the block near the motor mounts there is less flexing. I also want to retain the driver side idler pully using an aluminum spacer i will fab and add an idler pulley near the mount closest to the center of the engine. I think this will give me maximum wrap of all pulley. To clear the thermostat housing I am hoping a manual adjuster like this one (https://www.texas-speed.com/p-2838-adjustable-belt-tensioner-wpulley.aspx) will move the pull to the center an down enough to clear. Luckily Texas Speed is now local so I'll try to pick one up tomorrow.

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[gerno]

More progress made over the weekend. Short block is together with only a little time needed to finish the engine build.

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I also think I made more progress with the accessory drive. I think I'm going to try to reroute the belt like the truck setup and build my own manual belt tensioner. I'm a little worried about the clearance needed since the area under the TB and rear the radiator hose will be tight. Does anyone know a tolerance that is reasonable for whip in the belt in and out of load using a manual tensioner?


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[GregWeld]

Okay -- this might at first seem like a stupid question - but I'm going to ask it because I've seen this mistake made before... Not saying YOU made any mistakes - I'm just asking...


Did you match up the piston valve notches with the valve placement in the heads...


And did you offset the ring gap...


Torque with the proper lube??

[gerno]

Okay -- this might at first seem like a stupid question - but I'm going to ask it because I've seen this mistake made before... Not saying YOU made any mistakes - I'm just asking...


Did you match up the piston valve notches with the valve placement in the heads...


And did you offset the ring gap...


Torque with the proper lube??

All good questions and thanks for confirming

When I first hung the pistons I did not think about the valve reliefs and needed to rehang half of them.... it sucked... There is a left and a right in the kit you you do have to pay attention. I also have all the rods hung correctly with the large chamfer towards the crank.

I set all the ring gaps, took me over a day to do. I decided on the circle track spec which equated to basically .023 2nd and .022 first. I felt I'd rather have a little too much gap and not worry about heat expanding the rings and cracking the piston. It also sucked but the are right on for each hole.

I used ARP lube for all bolts except the rod bolts because Carrillo has a special lube they want to use for there specs

[67goatman455]

All good questions and thanks for confirming

When I first hung the pistons I did not think about the valve reliefs and needed to rehang half of them.... it sucked... There is a left and a right in the kit you you do have to pay attention. I also have all the rods hung correctly with the large chamfer towards the crank.

I set all the ring gaps, took me over a day to do. I decided on the circle track spec which equated to basically .023 2nd and .022 first. I felt I'd rather have a little too much gap and not worry about heat expanding the rings and cracking the piston. It also sucked but the are right on for each hole.

I used ARP lube for all bolts except the rod bolts because Carrillo has a special lube they want to use for there specs

And this is why i'm paying someone else to build my engine haha. i would be second guessing myself for months about stuff like this.

[gerno]

And this is why i'm paying someone else to build my engine haha. i would be second guessing myself for months about stuff like this.

I'm far from an expert but have build many engines in general over the years. I just take my time, double check all the measurements and continuously roll the engine over to make sure nothing is binding up. This is my first LS so I'm hoping it goes as well if not better than all the SBC's I built in the past... If I screw it up I pull it back out and learn what not to do again..:EmoteClueless:

[carbuff]

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So, that belt is really close on both the top and the bottom of the radiator hose. Do you have enough clearance to move the PS pump up or down? It looks like if you help one you will hurt the other...

[gerno]

So, that belt is really close on both the top and the bottom of the radiator hose. Do you have enough clearance to move the PS pump up or down? It looks like if you help one you will hurt the other...

I was thinking to possible use an under drive PS pulley. First I need to see how the modern PS pump pressure compares to an old style pump when using a steering box. By using a larger diameter pulley the belt will hug the WP pulley more and clear the hose. If I also keep the tensioner lower the angle seems to create at least 1/4" clearance with the intake tube. I was also going to grind a small portion of it down for reassurance. It's all just mocked up by hand in the pic so it's hard to say. I have the same concern you mention.

Oh, and I should have talked you into taking TOW to cars and coffee this morning. I complete forgot about it until 8am this morning.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'm far from an expert but have build many engines in general over the years. I just take my time, double check all the measurements and continuously roll the engine over to make sure nothing is binding up. This is my first LS so I'm hoping it goes as well if not better than all the SBC's I built in the past... If I screw it up I pull it back out and learn what not to do again..:EmoteClueless:




thats how you learn.

looking good gerno

[GregWeld]

Steve --- I only asked you - because lots of people read these threads... and sometimes I'm just trying to tickle the thought process for those that haven't done this stuff before or maybe are planning on trying to do it.


Glad you got it all going!

[gerno]

Mocked up a new high tech cardboard idler pulley bracket today. I hope to cut it out of some 1/4" steel plate tomorrow. I'll probably add an extension to it somewhere so I can use a ratchet for tensioning. Once I have it and the more finalized alternator bracket I'll work to use spacers to align them with the WP pulley

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[gerno]

Finally had some time to make some progress on the car. I have a dyne tune appt next Thursday so I have to get off my butt and get to work

Engine is all built.
50969

I also decided to go ahead with a new clutch. I grabbed a new LT1-S clutch from Monster clutch. They have a billet adapter flywheel to go with the factory LT1 clutch out of the C7 Vette. I believe they say it holds 800hp with a factory feel. I don't need it for the power ability but its also a 9.5" dual clutch that should last a long time.

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I pulled the suspension apart to clean it up, flip the shocks over so the adjusters are at the top and spring buckets at the bottom. I also swapped out the UCA's. Jay and Blake made some small but important changes to the geometry of the arms based on feedback provided. The adjusted their jigs and sent me an updated set. I'm sure the alignment will be dead on this time.

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[gerno]

I also dropped the engine in. There were a few challenges but nothing too major. At the last moment I decided to change to solid motor mounts. The fit wan't very good but after a few change got everything to work. Headers are installed and the ground clearance looks pretty good. I'm very happy with my choice for SW headers. There is also still at least 1/2" between the collectors and the floor even with the 1/2 height body mounts.

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[rickpaw]

Wow, the ground clearance is amazing.

[waynieZ]

They tuck up there nice and tight. Nice work.

[GregWeld]

Cookin' with gas Steve!


SpeedTech is one of the good companies! Everyone has issues once in awhile... how they deal with it is what matters.

Congrats on the new house and "shed"! LOL

Brizio/Hollenbeck/Mumford and a few others are planning to drive our hot rods to GG Lonestar Nats in April. Then Gwen and I will peel off and hit Austin... so get the friggin' car done so I can have a ride!

[Rick D]

Lookin good Steve, can't wait to hear your thoughts on the whole suspension and engine!!

[gerno]

Wow, the ground clearance is amazing.

They tuck up there nice and tight. Nice work.

I'm pretty happy with what I see so far. Of course the car isn't at ride height yet. Still need to add sheet metal and set the alignment but pretty good so far.

Cookin' with gas Steve!


SpeedTech is one of the good companies! Everyone has issues once in awhile... how they deal with it is what matters.

Congrats on the new house and "shed"! LOL

Brizio/Hollenbeck/Mumford and a few others are planning to drive our hot rods to GG Lonestar Nats in April. Then Gwen and I will peel off and hit Austin... so get the friggin' car done so I can have a ride!

I recall hearing something very similar to this for Oct yet I never got a phone call....interesting.

If I'm not done by April then I need to reassess my priorities big time


Lookin good Steve, can't wait to hear your thoughts on the whole suspension and engine!!

Me too. After driving Carbuffs car last week I hope mine measures up.



Today my goal is to setup the clutch, hang the fuel tank, route some fuel lines and maybe route some electrical.

I completed the clutch and don't know how I feel about it. It's fairly stuff and has a very short throw. It's very much like an on/off switch. Perhaps I'm just used to mechanical clutches. The trio is currently 3.5 so I may adjust that or may swap the master. I'll wait until it's driving to figure that out

[WSSix]

Nice work, Steve! Those headers do have a lot of ground clearance. Good luck getting it ready for the dyno on Thursday.

I'm about to finish up the coil over conversion for the front of mine. Then off to get aligned. I'm hoping I don't have any issues with my UCA's. I don't have the high clearance pieces though. Mine are factory replacements and work with the factory spindles.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I completed the clutch and don't know how I feel about it. It's fairly stuff and has a very short throw. It's very much like an on/off switch. Perhaps I'm just used to mechanical clutches. The trio is currently 3.5 so I may adjust that or may swap the master. I'll wait until it's driving to figure that out

Im not familiar with the clutch set up that you have so i'd like to see what is going on.
When you say on off switch as is in pedal feel? Does it have resistance then no resistance?

How far is the pedal off the floor and at what point does it release?
Do you recall the air gap measurment? I wonder if there is a difference in pressure plates and the fingers are being preloaded.

Your master bore size will change pedal effort. On pedal hole placement I try to shoot for 3" to 3 3/8". Shorten the distance will reduce pedal effort. I will try a mock up at 3.5in and see what I see. Might be your problem.

Let me know before anything gets damaged or fails. shoot me an email please.

[gerno]

Im not familiar with the clutch set up that you have so i'd like to see what is going on.
When you say on off switch as is in pedal feel? Does it have resistance then no resistance?

How far is the pedal off the floor and at what point does it release?
Do you recall the air gap measurment? I wonder if there is a difference in pressure plates and the fingers are being preloaded.

Your master bore size will change pedal effort. On pedal hole placement I try to shoot for 3" to 3 3/8". Shorten the distance will reduce pedal effort. I will try a mock up at 3.5in and see what I see. Might be your problem.

Let me know before anything gets damaged or fails. shoot me an email please.

Vince, thanks for the response. The clutch actuates well and was very easy to bleed. I think the issue is more of what I need to get used to with the clutch. There is no adjustment needed for the clutch according to monster clutch. I might go to Chevy and test drive a C7 to see what the clutch should feel like since I have zero reference

I put the hole at 3.25". I tried to raise it it the factory hole at 2.5" but the angle was too much. as stated above I think it's just me but I will get you some measurements for your records just to be safe

[GregWeld]

Pedal RATIO is very important.

[glassman]

Congrats on the progress Steve. You'll friggen love it when shes dialed. Unfortunately, they come "in and out" of dialment lol, how do i know?

Good call on the headers, mine are a very sore subject right now.

So what do you and vince meen "3-3 3/8"? where/what reference point are you using? I used a LUK 7 iirc, Josh did that part, but its a stock Z06 (older) set up, but works fantastic.

[CURVES]

Steve,

Looking good!

Did they adjust the upper control arms just for your car or did they change the entire production line?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Congrats on the progress Steve. You'll friggen love it when shes dialed. Unfortunately, they come "in and out" of dialment lol, how do i know?

Good call on the headers, mine are a very sore subject right now.

So what do you and vince meen "3-3 3/8"? where/what reference point are you using? I used a LUK 7 iirc, Josh did that part, but its a stock Z06 (older) set up, but works fantastic.

Hole from the pedal pivot. Most of the cars we do were right at 3". We did have one at 3 3/8 do to the factor hole, which was worn out. Felt good with a 3/4" master. We later replaced the pedal with a new one. You can use different masters and ratios but its all in preference. Another important thing is you don't over travel. The master has a 1.1in travel and you have to measure and add a stop.
I have found that any less than 2.90 in you start running into master cylinder push rod angle issues and piston bore wear.

[FETorino]

Geeze Steve, I have missed a bunch of great progress. It's good to see the guys at ST got things dialed in for you.:clap:

Good luck on the dyno:cheers:

[gerno]

Steve,

Looking good!

Did they adjust the upper control arms just for your car or did they change the entire production line?

My understanding is they changed the jigs for the whole line on the high clearance arms. You should contact Jay, Blake or Roger for the exact details so I'm not speaking out of place. They also gave the shafts more of a brushed than polished finish, it looks very nice.

Hole from the pedal pivot. Most of the cars we do were right at 3". We did have one at 3 3/8 do to the factor hole, which was worn out. Felt good with a 3/4" master. We later replaced the pedal with a new one. You can use different masters and ratios but its all in preference. Another important thing is you don't over travel. The master has a 1.1in travel and you have to measure and add a stop.
I have found that any less than 2.90 in you start running into master cylinder push rod angle issues and piston bore wear.

I'll work on the stop. I never got around to measuring but will soon. The pedal is feeling better to me. I think I was just used to the long travel z-bar setups. It should be much easier to drive on the track with the shorter travel.

Geeze Steve, I have missed a bunch of great progress. It's good to see the guys at ST got things dialed in for you.:clap:

Good luck on the dyno:cheers:

Getting there slowly but surely. I'm not making the dyne this week. I called Monday and rescheduled for Nov 14. Deadline was too tight and I didn't work hard enough over the last week. It wasn't work breaking something to meet the deadline.

When are you finally leaving the Bay area to get back on that Torino????

[gerno]

More progress was made over the weekend. The fuel tank was installed and the line ran to the front. I welded a mount to the frame for the fuel filter and ran the -6 hose as clean as possible. It's really nice running only 1 line from the vaporworx tank.

In hooking up the clutch I decided to expand the size of the clutch pedal to be the same as the brake pedal. I welded on some extra metal and it works great. You can also see from these pics where I drilled the new hole for the clutch rod.

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I went to O'reilly and dug around for a bit for hoses too. The ones I found fit very nice with just a small bit of trimming. I left the PN's on them in case someone needs as a reference.

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I also organized my thoughts for most of my wiring. You can tell from the pics it is not done yet. Original plan was to mount the computer in the engine bay. After laying it out it really looked bad to me. I used the factory 1.5" hole in the firewall for the ECM harness to pass thru once I expanded it to 2". The ECM and fuse panel will be mounted to the heater box just behind the stereo. I think it will work well with easy access and not be visible.

I also decided to go ahead and purchase an alternator mount form LSbrackets.com. I don't want to use it was a permanent solution since I really want it more lower in the car and out of site. That being said the mount is pretty nice. It also works with all the factory 2010 Camaro LS3 components which makes it really nice for a pull out engine swap.

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[Vince@Meanstreets]

I'll work on the stop. I never got around to measuring but will soon. The pedal is feeling better to me. I think I was just used to the long travel z-bar setups. It should be much easier to drive on the track with the shorter travel.



Yes, and should be soft too.

After you get the stop to limit the push rod to 1" travel, adjust the rod till it releases at 2-3" off the stop. You can do a push roll test to see when its releasing.

[gerno]

Made a bit more progress this weekend. Finally have the top side wiring , under dash wiring , fuel lines fully ran, and the ECM/fuse block mounted under the dash. I had to pull the new harness apart to move the MAF to the passenger side of the engine. I also needed to reduce the length of many of the wires. It took forever but I think the result it not too bad.

I also cut out a piece of steel plate to use as a clutch reservoir mount.

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Tonight I hope to get the knock sensors, main battery and starter solenoid all hooked up. I also want to complete the relay block for the fuel pump in the trunk.

[gerno]

More progress has been made with the car but I've hit a lot of roadblocks along the way. b Sorry about the novel with only a few pics

Last weekend I hoped to have the car started up.... this didn't happen. After getting all the wiring in pretty well (not fully satisfied with my routing/looming) I hooked up the battery to crank it over. Starter engaged but engine wouldn't budge. I then tried to spin the engine over by hand and it was locked solid. I knew the engine spun fine on the stand so it had to be something with the clutch/trans. I backed the bell housing off ~1/8" and the engine spun over so something was wrong in the clutch/trans/pilot/throwout area.

I went ahead and pulled the trans out to start measurements... which pretty much sucked.... I get it out at 10PM saturday because it's a mess with the TA x-member. I have to pull the subframe loose to get the TA x-memenber out since the trans hits it in normal position. Later on I'll have to figure out a way to fix the issue.

Sunday morning I began measuring. I started with the Bellhousing alignment. It was ~.0035 off so it was in spec. Next I checked the overall input shaft length. It was good. I checked the Throwout bearing length fully compressed compared to the clutch. It was good. Finally I checked the length of the input splines compared to the pilot bearing depth....I found an issue. I still had the factory LS3 sealed pilot bearing in the crank. Talking to Monster Clutch I was under the impression it would be fine....it wasn't. The splined part of the input shaft was pressing on the pilot bearing which was loading the thrust bearing and locking up the crank. Thankfully Monster supplied the roller bearing with the clutch kit. I pulled the sealed bearing out and install the roller. Everything was good to go. I reinstalled the trans. By 5PM sunday I was back to where I thought I was Saturday at 5pm. While it was out I also redrilled the trans x-member to pull it forward ~5/8”. At least I made a little progress and the day wasn’t a total loss.

After it was all back together I started on the air intake. I purchased the Air Raid build yourself tube that is basically a big 4” plastic tube with multiple bends and straights that you cut and rebuild as you need. The also sell a ~12” straight section with a fitting for the cartridge style MAF. I mocked up the tubes and cut them out. Sanded the ends nice and smooth. Here is the end product after it was all glued together. I still want to sand it all down and repaint it but for now it should work pretty well.

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Final piece I need was the oil filter and oil them. I scrapped my original filter mount and decided to get one with fittings on the side to mounting would be easier. I also picked up and Earl’s thermo. Final mounts will not be made until the fenders are back on but overall I’m happy with the routing. The filter will go behind the driver headlight area and the thermo in front of the radiator. One issue I do have is with the thermo fittings. It is made of 0-ring fittings. Apparently I bought radios O-fing fittings and they don’t seal at all. Oil is leaking everywhere with only 25PSI cranking pressure. I’m going to head to the local perf shop and find some regular fittings to replace the ones I have

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After all this I was ready to start it. I crank is over and nothing…. It spins just fine but doesn’t even think to fire. I put a scanner on the car and noticed a P0010 code for the Cam sensor and a few codes for the accelerator pedal. I decided to pull the cam sensor to make sure it isn’t damaged. It decides it wants to stay where it is and breaks into pieces. I have to pull the front cover off and push the sensor in but do get it of. Looking at the sensor I also see 1 of the 3 connections is missing so think I found the issue. I grab a replacement sensor, put it all back together and try to fire. NOTHING…..

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I go ahead and check spark and power while cranking. Fuse panel has power while cranking. The spark plugs are also firing. I pulled one out and arc’d it back to the engine.

Next area is fuel. I have 60PSI based on the gauge on the rail but need to see if it’s firing. I decide to pull the rail up slightly to see if fuel squirts when I cranks….NOTHING. I also pick up a NOID light kit (never heard of one before) to test the injector signal. The light never turns on when cranking.

I called PSI to chat about the harness. We go thru the basic troubleshooting and can’t really find an issue. I was worried the DBW pedal may be wrong and causing the issue due to the code since it’s not the exact same PN noted in the instructions. Tech says that since I hear the TB moving with the pedal movement there should be no issue.

Next step is to call the tuner and future out what he put on for a base tune on the ECM. Only thing I can gather is something is wrong with the VATS or some other tuning aspect. Unfortunately he’s tuning another car right now and will have to call me back after. I was due to have mine tuned tomorrow but due to the troubleshooting I still have no exhaust and am not comfortable bringing a car to the dyne when I’ve never cranked it. Until the car runs the dyne tune has been postponed indefinitely. SUCKS….

[Vince@Meanstreets]

sorry to hear about that. Strange set of problems.

another problem that arises with using modern drive trains, you gotta have the modern diagnostic tools and knowledge to keep them going.

I bet its a minor issue and it will be the last place you look.

[WSSix]

Sorry for the roadblocks. Good luck getting around them. Just take your time and work through them slowly so as to not create any more issues.

[gerno]

Pretty sure I found the issue.

The ECM was from a junkyard truck. The tuner was supposed to wipe the ECM file and load an LS3 config and set it up for a standalone system so I could start it. He never did that. I think he simply pulled the VATS off the ECM. Makes sense that an ECM from a 2011 truck with a 5.3 won't fire off an LS3 from a Camaro.

Sucks that its an hour drive each way to get it reflashed again. Sucks even more that I spent the last 3 days chasing the issue rather than finishing the car. Good news is I primed the engine very well while trying to crank it up and found a leak in the oil fittings before firing it off. Hopefully by Saturday I can post a video of it running.

[67RSRAG]

Are you still using your original harness or have you updated your fuse panel and harness to one of the new style harness like the AAW classic update type?

[waynieZ]

I hope he get it straight for you this time.

[gerno]

Are you still using your original harness or have you updated your fuse panel and harness to one of the new style harness like the AAW classic update type?

I'm running a painless harness on the chassis and a PSI harness for the engine.

I hope he get it straight for you this time.

Will find out tomorrow.... I hope so.

[67RSRAG]

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be that the switched power that I used to go to the computer would lose momentary power when I turn the key to start. Kinda like when your wipers stop momentarily when cranking the engine. The power was an interrupted signal. Just a thought.

[gerno]

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be that the switched power that I used to go to the computer would lose momentary power when I turn the key to start. Kinda like when your wipers stop momentarily when cranking the engine. The power was an interrupted signal. Just a thought.

Certainly something to check first. When wiring I used the wire that previously powered the coil to ensure constant power. I also confirmed the power was live during cranking. The fact that I have spark proves the EFI harness has power as well. Goal is to get the ECM reflashed today. Hopefully the car will be running shortly

[rickpaw]

Hope you get all the issues sorted out, and have the car running soon.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be that the switched power that I used to go to the computer would lose momentary power when I turn the key to start. Kinda like when your wipers stop momentarily when cranking the engine. The power was an interrupted signal. Just a thought.

IIRC the 67's didn't have IGN + power during cranking. They have an updated switch that has a second IGN + feed at the switch during cranking.

Im hoping its just in the software.

[67RSRAG]

On my original harness, one of the 2 switched sources wasn't interupted that is the one I ended up using and it solved my problem. I ended up using a AAW update harness so that is all in the past. Sounds like you have figured it out. Good luck

[gerno]

No luck... Tuner flashed the correct program into the ECM. Got home and car is still dead. The cam code is now gone but that's all. It is still throwing the accelerator pedal code.

I hauled a** to Chevy just before they closed today and grabbed the Vette pedal they recommend. Apparently the pedal I have that i thought was for a Vette is from a Monte Carlo and has the 2 wires with a reverse pinout. Got home, plugged it in and still nothing. I'm at a total loss here.

I'm headed to the hardware store to get a decent volt meter to check the pink injector wire voltage. I'm told it is positive and the other colors are the ECM grounds to fire it.

Any other suggestions?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I would start with the connections that are related to the codes thrown.

But lets start at the beginning.

Are you leaving the main bat power connected? We had an issue with main power being disconnected then the pedal would have to relearn all over again...it would run in limp till the pedal learned then we would get pedal response.
We left the battery wire on then cycled the ignition power several times.

Are your fuses ok? Are your grounds tight? Have to watch out that your ground bolts that are too long and bottom before putting pressure on the eyelet.

Pull the connectors and inspect the PINs.

[gerno]

I would start with the connections that are related to the codes thrown.

But lets start at the beginning.

Are you leaving the main bat power connected? We had an issue with main power being disconnected then the pedal would have to relearn all over again...it would run in limp till the pedal learned then we would get pedal response.
We left the battery wire on then cycled the ignition power several times.

Are your fuses ok? Are your grounds tight? Have to watch out that your ground bolts that are too long and bottom before putting pressure on the eyelet.

Pull the connectors and inspect the PINs.

I have been turning off my master battery disconnect because over time it drains the battery. Sounds like I need to fix the battery drain the switch is causing.

Fuses have been checked many times. I just rechecked them again.

Grounds have been checked. I also added a jumper cable from the battery neg to the ground to make sure.

All ECM pins look good, I inspected them. The ECM connectors also look good but it's hard to tell if a connector may have pushed thru. I'll go thru and check the other connectors.



Since the issue seem to be with firing the injectors I check the voltages on the wires. Between the pink wire and a ground I have a solid 11.9 volts with ignition on and under cranking. On the other wire I tested from the injector to a positive source straight off the starter that power my fan relays. Ignition on it read 10.9v. When cranking it gradually dropped 9,8,7,2 until it was at 0v. After cranking it held at 0 for a few moments then went back to 10.9v Makes me think the ECM is either not grounded correctly or the injector output on the ECM is not working correctly.

It's a junk yard ECM that I was told was tested before they pulled it but perhaps not...Maybe I'll get another from a junk yard and see if it works.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Since the issue seem to be with firing the injectors I check the voltages on the wires. Between the pink wire and a ground I have a solid 11.9 volts with ignition on and under cranking. On the other wire I tested from the injector to a positive source straight off the starter that power my fan relays. Ignition on it read 10.9v. When cranking it gradually dropped 9,8,7,2 until it was at 0v. After cranking it held at 0 for a few moments then went back to 10.9v Makes me think the ECM is either not grounded correctly or the injector output on the ECM is not working correctly.

Ok, how are your DVOM leads connected?


Another reason I don't like pull out stuff. You just never know.

[gerno]

I used a small piece of 22ga wire in the injector and wrapped the test lead. For the positive injector side I used the alternator housing to ground. FOr the neg injector side I used the 10ga wire coming straight off the starter the feeds the pos side of my cooling fan. I could double check using the power terminal on the alternator

Today I'm going to try grounding out terminal 52 on the black connector. This is the starter enabler. I found a couple threads on LS1 tech noting this helped when using EFI live (which is being used to tune)

[NvrDun71]

Neutral safety switch wired up?

[gerno]

I don't believe it's part of the PSI harness. I've found they left multiple things out. I believe the neutral safety would only disable the starter. I'm using the harness from the car to engage the starter so it doesn't impact it. This is what I think the issues with terminal 52 is. 52 is the starter enabler relay and based on what I see on LS1 tech with others who have similar issues if you don't ground that wire then it will crank and not start. I think the ECM uses it as a safety.

After typing all that it seems you are on the same path. Perhaps pin 52 does work with the neutral safety circuit. I'm learning quickly but not enough of an expert to know.

[gerno]

IT'S ALIVE!!!!! :excited:


Added a wire to pin 52 and grounded it to out. Engine fired right up. Luckily I had the factory harness and was able to pull the pins out of it and insert directly into the new harness.

Now to make sure it's all running right...

Thanks everyone for all the help.

[NvrDun71]

Sweet!!! Glad you got it sorted out hoping to start mine next week once I have the base tune loaded

[WSSix]

Good job! How does it sound?

[gerno]

I've been so relieved it actually started I took a break from working on it today. It sounds pretty good without the exhaust but then again every car sounds good uncapped. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get the exhaust hooked up and some coolant in to to really hear it run

[Panteracer]

Glad to hear you worked it out
My bird has had a intermittent short
For a while so I stopped driving very far
Finally found it this week and now I am driving
It and back finishing things on it

Enjoy and drive the hell out of it
That's why we build them

Panteracer

[Vince@Meanstreets]

See, its always the last place you look.

Nice work gerno

[gerno]

Quick video of it running

http://vid52.photobucket.com/albums/g15/sgernon/1972%20Camaro%20Engine/MOV_6414.mp4

[syborg tt]

Sounds great


Marty-MJ
www.garagescene.net

[gerno]

:thankyou:

[WSSix]

Nice rumble!

[GregWeld]

That's the sound of music right there! Nice work Steve!

[glassman]

Your gonna love it when its dialed. It'll be worth the wait. Congrats on a major milestone!!

[gerno]

Still working thru a few details to finalize the engine swap but I made it to the dyno today and it lived.

Pretty happy with the power. It made 475/435 with a very flat torque curve. Corey (tuner) is a more conservative tuner to make the car last rather than peak out. He wants me to add an exhaust crossover. He thinks I'll gain 20-30 ftlbs in the mid range by doing so. Otherwise he says the combo's great with nothing else needed.

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[glassman]

Thats awesome Steve!!!

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42461 go down to post #17 when our friend "Yoda Sutton" chimes in, good stuff...

[WSSix]

Nice numbers Steve!

[gerno]

I remember that post. I wonder where optimum is. Reality is that with the TA I don't have much of a choice where it will go

[carbuff]

:thumbsup:

[Flash68]

Nice and great to see it on the road.... so when's your first track day?

But I must say.... we really would have appreciated a dyno video. :hitaxeonthehead:

[gerno]

Nice numbers Steve!

:thumbsup:


Thanks Guys

Nice and great to see it on the road.... so when's your first track day?

But I must say.... we really would have appreciated a dyno video. :hitaxeonthehead:

Think the next track day isn't until Feb/March but I need to check it out. I want to put some miles on it and get the bugs worked out. The PS pump pressure/volume isn't working with my steering box right now and leaks, there is a wiring issue with my fan relays, I'm waiting on a correctly machined Earls oil thermosat and I have a small leak somewhere in my brakes..

Beyond that I'm also decided to drink the Sutton Kool-aid... Once I move into my new place I'm going to try to get him all my measurements so he can help me with the overall suspension tune including adding a rear swap bar I hope.


I wanted a video too but missed the chance. He was working thru the drivability most of the time then would suddenly do a pull. Here is a really video of it running on the dyno. Given this quality you should be glad I don't have a full video

http://vid52.photobucket.com/albums/g15/sgernon/1972%20Camaro%20Engine/IMG_3619.mp4

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Nice work!! nice numbers too.

[gerno]

Thanks Vince.



Here are some general pics of the overall setup. I still need to mount the oil catch better, clean up there air intake tube, get some 45 degree fitting for the heater and do some general cleanup but it's pretty close.

I'll get some more of the ground clearance and such after I get the alignment done so people looking to choose headers for a swap can see.


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[tubbed69]

Job well done Steve,I am sure you will be happy with the swap,makes the car a lot more enjoyable to drive:trophy-1302:

[FETorino]

:thumbsup: Nice work Steve. You have to be pretty proud of all the work you've done yourself and the finished product.

Now get out there and beat on it till it breaks.
:cheers:

[randy]

how is this air raid tube holding up to gluing it like that? I want to eliminate a middle coupler and smooth it out. Anyone have a opinion on the matter?


After it was all back together I started on the air intake. I purchased the Air Raid build yourself tube that is basically a big 4” plastic tube with multiple bends and straights that you cut and rebuild as you need. The also sell a ~12” straight section with a fitting for the cartridge style MAF. I mocked up the tubes and cut them out. Sanded the ends nice and smooth. Here is the end product after it was all glued together. I still want to sand it all down and repaint it but for now it should work pretty well.

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[GregWeld]

Hey Steve! You're doing work like a guy with a new house with a shop!! LOL


Yep - some sanding and a little paint when you get around to it - and it'll be SEMA ready!

[gerno]

Hey Greg - I'm still around and working on the car steadily. House and shop have actually given me more focus on the car, not less. Just haven't been so focused on updating the build thread.

March I ran Optima in Dallas
May and July hit up track days at TWS
Oct attended GG.
In between all of this I’ve been attending local AX’s

Overall the car is doing ok but in general it (or me) is better on the road course than the AX. I keep getting killed on the short tracks. It’s time to dig a bit deeper into my combo and tune out all the bugs. I’m working to get it all measured up to see what the geometry is really doing. Pics below shows how the car currently sits.

Changes so far
Swapped new front brakes from Wildwood FNSL with 13” rotors (they recommended) to Aero 6 with 14” rotors (Ron Recommended). This gave me a better 70/30 ratio and other added benefits. It's nice to have brakes..
Found geometry issues with the UCA’s - Speedtech build new ones. Alignment settings still seem less than optimal which is one reason for measurements.
Found the Speedtech TA was bent just before Optima in March - Speedtech overnighted a new one to help me get to the event.
Added a race bucket to hold me in place for big tracks - soo much better than the old ones.
Extended the throttle pedal throw to help modulate the throttle better.
Fixed geometry issues with the clutch pedal. Linkage was 1/4” to low - difference in the move was huge to pedal feel
Swapped in a 40lbs locker spring
Discovered all the crazy bolts that can come loose when running the hell out of a car on a roadcoarse

I’ll try to document the changes further as I go, just been too lazy the last year. I may try building a completely new subframe. Other option may be to do some small optimizations to this setup, keep it as a driver and start on a LS swapped wide body 240z track car. All depends what the measurements and my budget say.

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[GregWeld]

Great post and good reading Steve!!



Improving is a way of life.... so good for you!

[syborg tt]

Glad to see you still working on the car and having fun with it.

JIC your interested I have a Scott Mock C6 Sub sitting in my warehouse that it looks like I am going to be selling. PM me if your interested.

I’ll try to document the changes further as I go, just been too lazy the last year. I may try building a completely new subframe. Other option may be to do some small optimizations to this setup, keep it as a driver and start on a LS swapped wide body 240z track car. All depends what the measurements and my budget say.

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[rickpaw]

Hey Steve,

It was good to see you again at GG.

and start on a LS swapped wide body 240z track car. All depends what the measurements and my budget say.
]

Details on the 240z?

Tu

[preston]

Discovered all the crazy bolts that can come loose when running the hell out of a car on a roadcoarse

I have ended up safety wiring just about every single suspension and exhaust fastener on my car. Major pain, but not as bad as dropping out of an event for something stupid like a wastegate bolt falling out. Or worse !

[gerno]

I have ended up safety wiring just about every single suspension and exhaust fastener on my car. Major pain, but not as bad as dropping out of an event for something stupid like a wastegate bolt falling out. Or worse !

Agreed. I've now invested in safety wire and a tool for it. Soon I'll be in the same boat. I've had to drop from a few events due to bolts I never thought about coming loose

Hey Steve,

It was good to see you again at GG.



Details on the 240z?

Tu


Good seeing you too, still can't believe you drove up just for the day.


The 240z project is more of a concert for me now. I know where a very cheap shell is locally. Based on the speeds I've been running on the road course and lack of real safety measures I have in the Camaro I'm highly considering a full frame/caged 240z build. Overall would probably be a as light as possible with a 3 link rear, revised front suspension, LS swap and monster tires all around with a wide body on it if I do anything at all.

After I get the Camaro measured up I'll know more of what I plan to do.

[rickpaw]

Agreed. I've now invested in safety wire and a tool for it. Soon I'll be in the same boat. I've had to drop from a few events due to bolts I never thought about coming loose




Good seeing you too, still can't believe you drove up just for the day.


The 240z project is more of a concert for me now. I know where a very cheap shell is locally. Based on the speeds I've been running on the road course and lack of real safety measures I have in the Camaro I'm highly considering a full frame/caged 240z build. Overall would probably be a as light as possible with a 3 link rear, revised front suspension, LS swap and monster tires all around with a wide body on it if I do anything at all.

After I get the Camaro measured up I'll know more of what I plan to do.

I wasn't planning on going to GG, but wanted to meet Ron Sutton, plus my friend (owner of the 65 fastback) was in town, and he's a huge car nut, so we decided to do a day trip.

I think I saw the ad on the 240z. Near Austin airport right? That will be cool to do a wide bodied 240z. Been tempting to do something similar, or a 4x4 LS powered Jeep.

[gerno]

That would be the one. Tried to go look at it a few times but other things or rain always get in the way. Maybe some time soon.

Other goal with the 240 would be to learn how to do body work and sheet metal forming. I figure if I can get the car for $300-500 and end up making a mess of it I can deal with the loss much easier than trying something new on the Camaro.

[randy]

how is this air raid tube holding up to gluing it like that? I want to eliminate a middle coupler and smooth it out. Anyone have a opinion on the matter?

:poke:

[gerno]

Missed your post, sorry about that. The tube works great. No issues with it at all even though it's simply Gorilla glue holding it together.

[Flash68]

Steve, I sure hope you stick with the 2nd Gen and keep modifying it your way and make it just how you want it to be. It's come a long way already.... keep on truckin.

In the grand scheme of things, there really aren't THAT many bad ass 1st and 2nd Gen Camaros out there.... it just seems like it looking at the cars on this site and some others.

[Flash68]

So did this car sell? :action-smiley-027:

[gerno]

So did this car sell? :action-smiley-027:

Not at all. Are you looking to buy so you can remember what it's like to drive a real car again???

[Flash68]

Not at all. Are you looking to buy so you can remember what it's like to drive a real car again???

:lol:

All I can say is quit listening to Rob. He knows not what he speak of. :EmoteClueless:

:mock:

:cheers:

[gerno]

I thought I'd take a little time and bring my build thread back from the dead. I've finally started to make additional updates to the car. I think I have a pretty solid plan in place but I also have a really tight deadline. I need to have the car back together and and ready for COTA at the beginning of Aug. Hopefully I make it.


I have 2 main goals with the updates. 1 - optimize the car as best I can with the current frame and most of the hardware. 2 - Make the car safer for high speed tracks. As possible I'm also going to try to make it look better as well.


Here are the changes I've planned.

Suspension
Seam weld/stifffen the factory frame
Revise UCA/LCA mounts for better geometry
New UCA’s
New ball joints
New front sway bar
Add rear sway bar
Change panhard mounts on rear
Revalve current shocks
Add adjustable rear trailing arm mount


Safety
Add a full roll cage
Add fire suppression system
Mount passenger side race seat

Misc
Move stuff around as possible to achieve better weight balance
New/stiffer trans mount and TA mount
Smooth/Clean firewall
Add Dual brake masters with pivot
Optimize pedal layout for heel toe shifting - because I suck at it
Replace factory heater with compact vintage air unit
Clean up the birds nest of wiring I have
If there’s time
Move alternator to lower passenger side (if there’s time)
Flare front fenders for 315 tires. (may drive with some modified junk fenders for a while if needed)
Make custom grill
Move turn signals to headlights and change current lights to brake ducts.
Make front splitter or extend current factory replacement.


So far all I’ve really done is destroy the car. Its now torn down and I’ve been focused on cleaning. Today I’ll be ordering up the tubing for a cage but that’s on hold until I get the frame back in place


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[carbuff]

I love it. Drivable car to stripped subframe in what, 48 hours? :)

I'd love to offer up TOW as a COTA backup plan, but I couldn't let you get an invite in my car! :sieg:

[gerno]

I love it. Drivable car to stripped subframe in what, 48 hours? :)

I'd love to offer up TOW as a COTA backup plan, but I couldn't let you get an invite in my car! :sieg:

Yea, its a bit depressing to think about but hopefully I get it done and can compete. I do have 5 weeks of vaca available at work but not sure they'd like me to take it all at the same time.

[syborg tt]

Here are some of my thoughts that may help you speed things up as your time line is very short.

Add a full roll cage

-- Make sure you leave enough room so you can add padding so you can drive the car on the street if you want to. I would hate to have you get hurt driving the car without a helmet and smack your head on the cage.


Smooth/Clean firewall

-- buy the DSE firewall patch panel.

Optimize pedal layout for heel toe shifting - because I suck at it

-- don't we all suck at it

Flare front fenders for 315 tires.

Look at what D&Z and Dutch boys did with there 2nd gen as it works so well


Move turn signals to headlights and change current lights to brake ducts.

JIC you are interested I have a standard camaro header that I had the RS housing cut into if you are interested in it. You can then move the indicators up there or use them for brake ducts


Make front splitter or extend current factory replacement.

This could kill two birds with one stone. Extend it and then add your brake ducts into the splitter.

So far all I’ve really done is destroy the car. Its now torn down and I’ve been focused on cleaning. Today I’ll be ordering up the tubing for a cage but that’s on hold until I get the frame back in place

Destroy - Nahhhh your just having fun. Heck I took my 70 apart last weekend as it needs more heat and sound deadening.

ps DEI sells a lite weight heat insulation for under the carpet.

[gerno]

Marty - All good advise. Thank you for the comments

Roll cage will certainly have some padding on it. Current Roll bar does already though the cage will have the SFI padding. Luckily Slennings has done an awesome job with his cage and its the same layout I was thinking. Hopefully I can get close to the quality of work he's done

Dutch boys car is certainly a car I am looking at for ideas. I'll have to check out the D&Z car too

I am interested in the header you have. Can you PM a pic and price for it?

[syborg tt]

So did you see the seats Steve (Sleenning) is putting in his car. I no longer like him as I really want to put those seats in my car. However I think I am going to build another car instead.

pm sent and here is a link http://www.garagescene.net/index.php?/category/489


Marty - All good advise. Thank you for the comments

Roll cage will certainly have some padding on it. Current Roll bar does already though the cage will have the SFI padding. Luckily Slennings has done an awesome job with his cage and its the same layout I was thinking. Hopefully I can get close to the quality of work he's done

Dutch boys car is certainly a car I am looking at for ideas. I'll have to check out the D&Z car too

I am interested in the header you have. Can you PM a pic and price for it?

[slenning]

Marty - All good advise. Thank you for the comments

Roll cage will certainly have some padding on it. Current Roll bar does already though the cage will have the SFI padding. Luckily Slennings has done an awesome job with his cage and its the same layout I was thinking. Hopefully I can get close to the quality of work he's done

Dutch boys car is certainly a car I am looking at for ideas. I'll have to check out the D&Z car too

I am interested in the header you have. Can you PM a pic and price for it?

Hey Steve this is awesome!! Way to dive into the deep end.

Thanks for the comments on my cage, that was my first attempt at doing one :EmoteClueless: and am pretty happy with the way it turned out. If there's anything I can help you out with, specific pics, measurements etc. just let me know. I'd be glad to help with what limited knowledge I have LOL

PS Marty sure seems to be upset about my seats :mock:

[syborg tt]

Yes I am


Marty-MJ

[glassman]

Yes I am


Marty-MJ

You'll forget all about seats once your in your Cayman seat. Either the LWB's or not, you'll be more spoiled....

Steve, way kool to see this. I pretty much just wrapped up a 9 month redo with mine, update/project progress pending.....

On the 315's, i don't know what DZ did, but Dutch Boys (Paul) left em out, track ok, but rain and road not so sure. I'm going from a 275 to a 295 or 305 and may do the Speed Tech inner tubz.....And still may go the Speed Tech sub.Right now the car is pretty righteous cept my shock/spring balance issues i'm having, Dr Ron is on it.....

Looking forward to seeing your progress......Cheers for now

[GregWeld]

Quit typing and pick up a tool dude!



Looks good Steve! But I think it needs to be broken down even further.

[gerno]

Hey Steve this is awesome!! Way to dive into the deep end.

Thanks for the comments on my cage, that was my first attempt at doing one :EmoteClueless: and am pretty happy with the way it turned out. If there's anything I can help you out with, specific pics, measurements etc. just let me know. I'd be glad to help with what limited knowledge I have LOL

PS Marty sure seems to be upset about my seats :mock:

I'll most likely be taking you up on that offer. i've never done a cage either so it's going to be a steep learning curve but its a challenge I feel I need to take on.

Those are good looking seats for sure. If i didn't already have some Sparco's I may have jumped on the bandwagon

You'll forget all about seats once your in your Cayman seat. Either the LWB's or not, you'll be more spoiled....

Steve, way kool to see this. I pretty much just wrapped up a 9 month redo with mine, update/project progress pending.....

On the 315's, i don't know what DZ did, but Dutch Boys (Paul) left em out, track ok, but rain and road not so sure. I'm going from a 275 to a 295 or 305 and may do the Speed Tech inner tubz.....And still may go the Speed Tech sub.Right now the car is pretty righteous cept my shock/spring balance issues i'm having, Dr Ron is on it.....

Looking forward to seeing your progress......Cheers for now

Funny how they are never done.....

I like how Dutchboys tied the fender to the cage but I may have to do some additions to keep it a little clean. Hard to say right now. Most likely it will have some cut up junk fenders on it at first and no inners because I'll probably run out of time

Quit typing and pick up a tool dude!



Looks good Steve! But I think it needs to be broken down even further.

It does need more teardown. Remaining interior comes out tonight and i start the process of stripping paint on the floors and firewall. SOOOOOO excited I can't wait :confused18:

[carbuff]

PS Marty sure seems to be upset about my seats :mock:

Those aren't easy to find! I was looking for a set when I got the seats for TOW, and no one had them in stock. 12 weeks was the estimate. I like the ones I ended up with though, but would probably have liked these a little more.

[WSSix]

Good luck, Steve. Sounds like a good plan you have worked out.

[gerno]

Good luck, Steve. Sounds like a good plan you have worked out.

Hopefully I can stick with the plan and it all works for me.


Made a bit more progress. Subframe is torn down and sandblasted. Started welding up the frame seams. I'm taking it slow to make sure I don't warp the frame. Welds aren't all prefect but are getting better than they used to be. I was pretty happy with this one in particular. Others are close to the same but not quite as good. Let me know if I'm wrong and I should be doing something different with my welds.


Next step is to flip the frame over, finish welding the seams and jig in on the table at ride height so I can move the LCA mounts and remove the UCA mounts. Also will need to decide if I'll be mounting the shocks to the frame or the engine bay bars I'll be installing

I also started to clean off the firewall in prep for smoothing but I won't proceed further with that until I have the frame complete

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[SSLance]

Ooof!! Now that is taking on an ambitious project in a tight time frame. Good luck with all the updates! Sounds like a good plan so far!

[WSSix]

Welds look good to me!

[gerno]

Welds look good to me!


Thanks, it does feel nice to not have the giant glory welds I used to get when I started. Amazing what little prep and fine tuning off the machine can really do.





Made a bit more progress last night. The frame is mounted on a table as level as I can make it. Now its time to move the LCA mounts and cut off the UCA mounts.

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[GrabberGT]

I dont think I've subscribed to this one yet. Looking fwd to seeing your progress. Are you taking direction from the Ronster for your geometry changes?

[gerno]

I dont think I've subscribed to this one yet. Looking fwd to seeing your progress. Are you taking direction from the Ronster for your geometry changes?

Sure am. No way I'd be doing all this work with only the knowledge I have. Had to have an expert show me the way. Overall the goal is to get the RC under control and make the car more predictable for me when I'm driving it.

[Panteracer]

So are you going to due the gulstrang mod to the shock??

Bob

[gerno]

So are you going to due the gulstrang mod to the shock??

Bob

Not really. The UCA mount will be all new so I can use slugs to adjust the alignment and set the car up per Ron's guidance for the correct geometry. Ron is have a custom UCA made to put my ball joint in the best possible location based on the current spindles I have.

I'm debating how to mount the shocks overall. I'd like to add adjusters to them mount them further out on the LCA and to the engine bay bars I'll be adding to the cage but I'm not sure there is time for this and not sure if the wheels will interfere. Most likely I'll reuse the current Speedtech mounts I have.

[NvrDun71]

Subscribed, looking forward to seeing this progress. The custom UCA concept optimized to the AFX spindle is something Speedtech should really look into. Seems there current offerings work, but aren't built around the spindle per se.

[Panteracer]

Look forward to seeing this progress
I still have a stock spindle and need to change
things... I like the custom UCA idea

Bob

[gerno]

Look forward to seeing this progress
I still have a stock spindle and need to change
things... I like the custom UCA idea

Bob

If I didn't already have the AFX spindle I would have gone with a custom one from Ron which would have made the geometry even better from what I recall with the conversations I had with him. The downfall for me is that I would have had to get new front brakes and a few other pieces which blew my budget.



Here are some more updates

With the frame welded to the table in the same position as the car I needed to get started moving the LCA mounts. Overall I need to move the LCA mounts up 1/8" and make sure both sides are exactly the same.

At first I decided to cut a few bolts in the lathe to make a point which would find the center points and hang strings from there. Quickly I found the issue was that the ante of the bolts could move relative to each other depending the angle of the factory mount which caused a lot of variability. I didn't like this.

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The plan already involved using steel rods to ensure alignment of the holes after they are moved. I decided to expand upon the use of this. I drilled 2 holes in the rods at the location of the LCA pivot centers so I could hang a string thru it and get the best possible measurement along with the most aligned mounts.

Once everything was where it needed to be hardened washers were then welded on to the frame so nothing would move. It doesn't look too hard in the pics but given it was my first time to do it, I had a lot of time measuring, grinding, remeasuring and regrinding....but finally I got it done.

Last night I also finished up the driver side so step one and hopefully one of the harder (most critical tolerances) is complete.


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[Panteracer]

Surprised the 1/8" makes that much difference
but understand that Ron's word is Gold. I was also
told by another builder that you want to brace the rear
lower supports as they move around with the bigger tires,bars etc

Thinking this may be the way to go for me since I have a Pontiac
Engine with not a lot of options. Was already thinking Ron's spindles
and custom Uca. Looks like a lot of work but it will be worth it in the end

Bob

[gerno]

Bob - I'm moving the locations 1/8" but I'm also moving the entire frame up 1/2" into the car by removing all the body mounts. These changes along with new UCAs and remounting them are all combining to give me an overall better front RC under dive.

I agree with you on bracing the rear LCA mounts. I'll be doing this once I have the engine back in so I can check for header clearance.



Another thing I am doing is moving the lower shock mount outward for better responsiveness. This is pretty scary for me since I'm no where near a professional welder/fab guy. Either way I already took the plunge and this is what I came up with over the weekend. Its a really tight fit but everything seems to work.

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Not sure I mentioned it before but I did find something scary when pulling the car apart. The fuel vent must have been leaking inside the car. I could smell it once in a while when the tank was full but I though it was just a little bit of fumes. apparently it was coming out the vent and dripping in the car because the vent was angled and didn't reach too far out of the floors. Thats what I can gather from what I see. Either way there's no doubt that this will certainly be changed before the car gets back on any street or track

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[Ron Sutton]

Fabrication is looking good Steve !

[Panteracer]

Looks professional to me
Thanks for posting up the pictures

Bob

[WSSix]

WS6 cars came from the factory with the rear LCA mount braced to the subframe. It's just a bolt in deal but it worked according to the engineers at Pontiac at the time. I had to pull the one on my car to clear my headers but will be building gussets and welding those in at a later date. In short, glad you're planning to add them to you car, Steve and Bob.

You're doing good work, Steve. Good luck with it.

[gerno]

Here are a few more updates on the car. Progress is much slower than I hoped but I'm happy with the work I'm doing. At this point USCA at COTA is a no go. I did end up buying a completely stock 95 Mustang GT for next to nothing. I was going to run at COTA then later on turn it into a NASA CMC car but decided it too wasn't worth the effort/potential costs to run with USCA.

Custom UCA's arrived last week and I was able to setup the mounts. I built a platform with 3/16 that I will later box in and add gussets once I confirm everything is correct. I'll have the driver side done early next week.

I also need clearance the frame in the back for additional tire clearance and the bottom of the frame for the new sway bar. The bar is completely under the frame to maximize tire clearance. I'll post more pics of this once its complete next week


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[gerno]

A few more updates. Optima this weekend is now officially out but progress still continues on the car.

Clearanced the frame to maximize turning radius.
Mocked up the sway bar but ran into clearance issues with the steering/tie rods. Hoping bent tie rods will correct the issue. may also move the bar forward if possible to straighten the links. Still in progress.
Mocked up the upper shock mounts. Eventually there will be bay bars tied into the cage to reinforce the hoops. I may also remake the hoop to make is slightly narrower and to ad 5 degrees tilt to the shock mount.

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[cpd004]

Looking great! You're making some great progress!

[Panteracer]

Thank you so much for all the detail
Looks like a lot of work but I know it
will be worth it...keep after it

Bob

[gerno]

Its been a while since I updated this so I figure its about time. Lots has happened in the last few months. First, I missed the Optima COTA deadline. I decided it wasn't worth rushing the rebuild to hit the event. One of the big reasons was due to my girlfriend who pointed out I was getting completely OCD on the project, becoming a bit of an ass due to the stress of the deadline and had forgotten about many other important things, such was my dog, maintaining my house, my truck, focusing on work...oh, and her too. It was a good reality check for my that this is supposed to be fun and I am doing this to learn how to do things right. I took a bit of a break from the car, did some traveling and now have started to focus on it again. New deadline is March of next year (hopefully).


I still haven't finished up the front suspension. I've found just how difficult it really is to package everything in the front of a car including the tie rods, sway bar and maximizing the wheel travel and starring angle. I also decided to cut the frame up even more. If I'm going to build it I might as well make it easy to work on later. This meant completely removing the spring buckets.


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From here I needed to figure out how to fit the sway bar. Ron provided me some bent arms to use, and I did my best to try to fit them. Unfortunately it wasn't possible with my goal for the most steering angle possible. I decided to make a test arm with a different 30 degree bend in it to see how things fit and it seems to be the best choice.

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Next piece before I finished up mounting the sway bar was to get the steering geometry correct. Ron talked me thru this process and I ordered up all new linkages. This included a bumpsteer adj centerline, bumpsteer adjusters for the outer tie rods and bent tie rod links for added clearance. Process overall was pretty simple. First I leveled the pitman arm on the steering box, it was 2.5 degrees off. This included shimming between the steering box and the frame until is was level. Next, because my pitman and new idlers arm are the same length I measured the distance from the axle centerline to the centerline mount for both with both the pitman and idle perpendicular to the axle centerline. I also needed to make sure the centerlink was level. This showed me I needed to move my idler arm mount ~1/2" from the original location. I thought about some link of fancy bracket but ultimately decided simple is better and I just drilled new holes in the frame. After they were both level and square I had to clearance the passenger side of the frame because the idlers was little much higher. Once clearanced I was able to check the angle of the centerlink thru the steering travel. I put a gauge on the centerlink and turned the box lock to lock. Happy to report it was spot an and didn't change angle at all.

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[gerno]

Next issue I ran into was that my new coil over mounts were hitting the wheel while turning and in suspension compression. Of course this wasn't going to work. I had to start over on the coilover mount. I could have bought some new arms but I already work geometry with Ron so I didn't want to chance screwing up the geometry. I had also hacked these up already so figured they were pretty worthless in terms of resale.

I went ahead and cut the mounts and entire spring bucket out. I added a cross tube and some additional 3/16 plate to make an area to mount the coil over bracket at 4.5" from the ball joint centerline. My welds certainly aren't the straightest but I'm happy with the overall results so far.

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After all this time that's really all I have to update. I'm hoping this week to finish up bother LCA's with coilover mounts and decide on final mounting of the sway bar. You can see in one of the pick I have the new sway bar arms and have drilled them for the dual mounting locations. After this I have to rebuild the hoops for the coil over upper mounts because of the change in height for the lower mount revision. Maybe that will get done next week but probably not since I'll be headed to SEMA

[Dave Pratt]

This is so cool to watch guys doing all this great work in their own garage.I'm no welder but I'm looking at getting something for the garage...I'll learn as I go I hope. Great work on the build!!

[preston]

I've found just how difficult it really is to package everything in the front of a car

I read somewhere that Bruce McLaren himself said designing a race car was primarily a packaging exercise.

Looks like you're on the right path. Of all aspects of (pro tour) car construction, I find the front suspension the most interesting and in fact the dis-satisfaction of trying to band aid the suspension on my '67 Mustang was what got me started building cars in the first place.

Looks like you're doing the right thing and with Ron involved your in the best of hands. And every time you decide not to compromise, you've made the right choice, especially if its mostly an issue of labor (everyone has $ limits).

As much as I like to work on "open design" tube front ends, I find there to be something really satisfying about working with the stock subframe and the original steering gear, for example I found 73CP's thread really interesting for that reason. As long as its someone else's car !

[waynieZ]

It looks great, nice work.

[Flash68]

Impressive Steve. You are really goin for it (within reason) and stickin with it. I am glad you didn't bail on the Camaro.

Did I hear you picked up some other vehicle in the meantime? :peepwall:

[SSLance]

Nothing wrong with stepping back every now and then to tend to other priorities...it's all about balance.

Huge kudos for stepping into the deep end with your fab work, I agree...if you are in it this far just keep doing things right instead of compromising. It will pay off in the end.

[cpd004]

When you leveled the pitman arm, was that done at the flat area where the center link attaches or at the arm itself?

[gerno]

This is so cool to watch guys doing all this great work in their own garage.I'm no welder but I'm looking at getting something for the garage...I'll learn as I go I hope. Great work on the build!!

I'm pretty much doing the same, learning as I go. It certainly gives you a whole different perspective on all aspects of the hobby.

If you are really thinking about a welder I'd look at the new Miller 211 MIG. I sold 1 large and 1 small MIG and replaced them with the 211. Its an awesome machine that's pretty amazing out of the box. Don't think you can beat it for the $$


I read somewhere that Bruce McLaren himself said designing a race car was primarily a packaging exercise.

Looks like you're on the right path. Of all aspects of (pro tour) car construction, I find the front suspension the most interesting and in fact the dis-satisfaction of trying to band aid the suspension on my '67 Mustang was what got me started building cars in the first place.

Looks like you're doing the right thing and with Ron involved your in the best of hands. And every time you decide not to compromise, you've made the right choice, especially if its mostly an issue of labor (everyone has $ limits).

As much as I like to work on "open design" tube front ends, I find there to be something really satisfying about working with the stock subframe and the original steering gear, for example I found 73CP's thread really interesting for that reason. As long as its someone else's car !

Agreed. I keep checking to see what else I can notice on Brian's car. He used the frame because it was for CP. I used the frame mainly because this is my first huge fab project and honestly I don't think I have the skills to build a complete frame that was correct and straight.... Maybe the next build

It looks great, nice work.

Thank you

Impressive Steve. You are really goin for it (within reason) and stickin with it. I am glad you didn't bail on the Camaro.

Did I hear you picked up some other vehicle in the meantime? :peepwall:

I never planned to give up on the Camaro but I did get another car too. Picked up a 95 Mustang GT with the 5.0 and 5 spd for $1k. It was from the original owner with ~300k miles and the AC still works. Certainly no show car but its a great beater to practice Axing while I get the Camaro back. Last AX I put air in the old tires and added 2 qtr of oil. That was enough to beat out 3 of 5 BMW's on the course. Who knows what will happen with decent tires. Later on I plan to build it up as a NASA CMC car. Wont be as cool as Robs AI car but should be fun none the less.

Weld has seen the beast in person and can attest to how magnificent it is.

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Nothing wrong with stepping back every now and then to tend to other priorities...it's all about balance.

Huge kudos for stepping into the deep end with your fab work, I agree...if you are in it this far just keep doing things right instead of compromising. It will pay off in the end.

Agreed. Funny how at first I was annoyed to step away from it but now I'm very glad I did. Although its coming time to get a bit more focus on it if I want to make the March deadline without stressing

When you leveled the pitman arm, was that done at the flat area where the center link attaches or at the arm itself?

I did use that part of the arm. It was the only part flat enough and I am assuming the centerlink hole in it is perpendicular. The Pitman needed to be level because the centerlink joint isn't a ball joint, more of a bushed shaft so I needed a closer tolerance to eliminate binding and keep things true.

[Flash68]

Picked up a 95 Mustang GT with the 5.0 and 5 spd for $1k.



Awesome score. :thumbsup:

Wont be as cool as Robs AI car


Yes it will. :happy23:

[cpd004]

I did use that part of the arm. It was the only part flat enough and I am assuming the centerlink hole in it is perpendicular. The Pitman needed to be level because the centerlink joint isn't a ball joint, more of a bushed shaft so I needed a closer tolerance to eliminate binding and keep things true.

Thanks for that info! So the centerlink needs to stay level at all times throughout the steering travel, correct?

Please keeps the pics coming...definitely appreciate them!

[gerno]

Based on discussions I've had with Sutton, yes but I'm not the expert. Maybe after SEMA he will comment more about this, I know he's pretty busy right now. My understanding is that if the centerlink is changing angles that means your inner tie rod mount is moving. The location of this mount will directly impact your bump steer step as well as ackerman (I'm pretty sure) on the car. I don't have my notes from his class with me to confirm this.

[Dave Pratt]

Gerno thx for the info on the welder.Just got in from work so I'll look it up...cheers

[WSSix]

Good work, Steve. I know the feeling about stepping back. That's kind of why I've gone dormant on my build. I'm not giving up. I'm just not wanting to burn out. Good luck moving forward and making your March deadline!

[gerno]

A bit more progress has been made over the last week. The LCAs are all welded up with shock mounts added. I also tacked up the sway bar which has been driving me insane. Finally figured out a configuration that has zero binding during suspension compression, zero steering or wheel clearance issues and tucks above the x-member during suspension compression. I'm going to wait to weld it up completely until the frame is fully complete.

Next step is to clearance the frame a bit more for the tie rods during suspension compression and full turn, check the alignment to make sure I didn't screw anything up and then start to fill in all the holes I cut in the frame.

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[gerno]

Small progress but progress non the less. Upper coil over mounts made.

Next step is to clearance the frame for the outer tie rods. After that I'm waiting on the new steering box and u joints to arrive and I'll double check everything including the alignment before I start final welding everything, reboxing the frame and adding additional gussets.

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[waynieZ]

Your doing a great job!

[gerno]

Started to put the frame back together this weekend. Used a sheet a 10ga and made a press brake using some spare angle iron I had. Pretty happy with the results so far.


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[GregWeld]

Well aren't you just Mister Fab!


LOL


Looks great Steve!

[gerno]

Well aren't you just Mister Fab!


LOL


Looks great Steve!

Thanks Greg.

Long time ago I was told to work smarter, not harder. Many times I forget to follow that guidance but not this weekend. It took a few hours for me to make the brake and its far from a perfect design but overall I think it saved me a lot more time and made for a better overall end result. Now I just need to get the other side tacked up so I can make sure everything clears.

[waynieZ]

It's looking good, nice job.

[FETorino]

I never planned to give up on the Camaro but I did get another car too. Picked up a 95 Mustang GT with the 5.0 and 5 spd for $1k. It was from the original owner with ~300k miles and the AC still works. Certainly no show car but its a great beater to practice Axing while I get the Camaro back. Last AX I put air in the old tires and added 2 qtr of oil. That was enough to beat out 3 of 5 BMW's on the course. Who knows what will happen with decent tires. Later on I plan to build it up as a NASA CMC car. Wont be as cool as Robs AI car but should be fun none the less.

Weld has seen the beast in person and can attest to how magnificent it is.

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Awesome score. :thumbsup:



Yes it will. :happy23:

Dave is just pissed he is not part of team CMC / AI :stirthepot: :popcorn2:

Looking at the progress you are making on the Camaro and your fab work I have no doubt your CMC car WILL turn out better than AO.

Your doing a great job!

Well aren't you just Mister Fab!


LOL


Looks great Steve!

:wow: I gotta agree with these guys.

[gerno]

A little more progress has been made. The frame is clearanced for tie rods, all welded up and back to 1 piece. I also welded in the sway bar mount after moving it up 5/8" and back 1/4" in an effort to gain additional ground clearance with the sway bar arms.

I mocked up the car at ride height and did an alignment to make sure it was at spec before I final welded the UCA mounts. I found they were a bit off. I could have used slugs to get it where I needed but decided to move the mounts a little so I can be at spec with as close to a 0 offset slug as possible. After that was confirmed I welded up the UCA mounts.

Its about ready to pull off the table and mock up in the car again. I still need to add a gusset to the UCA mount and final weld the shock hoops but I want to wait until its in the car first in case there is some sort of interference issue. I also need to mock the engine back up in it before putting it in the car. I will be raising the engine so the exhaust is tucked under the frame. I could remake the headers but think moving the engine is the easiest and won't really impact performance of the car any way I would notice. Plus the bell housing was too low so that will be better too.

I'm hoping to have the frame bolted back up later this week


Oh yea, I also bought a new Sweet 10-1 steering box. Had to clearance the driver side UCA mount for it but it wasn't too hard.

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Mocked up for alignment

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Bare frame all welded up

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Gusset will be a piece of 1/8" flat bar 1" wide and the length of the UCA mount. it will sit on the inside of the UCA mount at basically the same angle as the base I made.

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[preston]

Exciting stuff !

This is the fun part.

Still a long ways to go though...keep at it !

[WSSix]

Keep at it, Steve. You're doing good work. Besides, I want to see what this thing looks like sitting on the ground when done :D

[SSLance]

Thanks for posting the update, looks like you've been busy. I can't wait to see it back on the ground again as well.

[glassman]

Dang Steve, brave. Great stuff. What's next? How close u too final assembly?