Project 'Grip'- 69 Camaro

[Stovebolter]

My coworkers have been coming up with some rather embarrassing project names for my Camaro, so in the interest of keeping my sanity I came up with one today. Project Grip.

Going to paste and copy from my other thread to get this going ...as yes......I am still waiting on wheels. Lol.


To satisfy a few members i decided to start a build thread for my recent 69 Camaro purchase. This will be a garage built car. I'll be doing most of the work myself with the exception, obviously, of the machine work on the engine. All welding, fab work, body and paint will be done by me, so this is going to take a little time. Lols. Time is so precious for me.

I intentionally bought a base code car so as not to offend the purist crowd. Someone built it as a SS clone with a mild 454/400 turbo with a BU code 12 bolt. I promised my wife i woluld buy a car that was in one piece and driveable so it is in fair shape. Someone did replace both quarters and made a stab at replacing the floor pans but I feel I can do better with a full floor pan. And it will get fresh paint.

The plan is to build a fun street car with occasional track and/or AutoX time. I've purchased the complete True Turn suspension system with the triple adjustable remote resevior TQ air springs through Matts Classic Bowties. I'll most likely be going with a stroked LS with a Magnum ZR1 version 6speed. Also installing a full floater 9" from Moser as others have done but still waiting on the 18x9.5s and 18x12s from True Forged so I can get an accurate measurement for hub to hub length. Also bought the 14" ZO6 front and 13." ZO6 rear system from Tobin at Kore3.

So far all I've done is install the DSE mini tubs, added a carbon fiber Z28 front spoiler from Feather Carbon (which I really like the quality of), and installed and painted a urethane bumper last night.

All for now.

David

[Stovebolter]

Another....

[Stovebolter]

Another......

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And yet another....

[Stovebolter]

And yes...another

[Stovebolter]

Had just painted and installed the urethane bumper. That was interesting. They're a bugger aligning.

[Stovebolter]

Finished mini tubs. Used the DSE tubs. Went very well. In fact easy in my opinion.

[Stovebolter]

More of mini tubs

[Stovebolter]

And more of mini tub....

[Stovebolter]

And more....

[Stovebolter]

Original color of my centers. Updated in next picture.

[Stovebolter]

And this is an updated picture of my centers.....in Monaco Copper (bronze gold look). Still waiting for them to be assembled. True Forged Competitions in 18x9.5s and 18x12xs.

[Stovebolter]

Wish I was as clever with rendering as some of the other members here but im not really. The car will be 'Hot Red'. I believe it is a Nissan color. Probably a solid 'bronze' (to match wheels) hood and deck lid and/or integrate Corvette Grand Sport fender stripes also in said bronze.

It has to be red. I know Im following some big shoes (Scott, Mark, and the Big Red Camaro) but i fell in love with the red as soon as I saw it. You must understand.....the last 5 cars I've painted were all black. Time for some color. Lol. The last was this 65 El Camino i painted for my son.

David

[CHAZMO1986]

Those wheels are gonna be sick!

[Stovebolter]

Ha ha buddy. Now you've revealed your user name. By the way, that is a nice Firebird. Did you get it back here? Any ideas or thoughts, Dustin and I would like to check it out too.

David

[CHAZMO1986]

Yessir I got it there at home, not real sure the direction of the build quite yet, low and fast with some fancy wheels and bright paint, I've gotta pull my ls1 back apart when I get home first and get my nova goin again

[Stovebolter]

Getting closer to getting the wheels.

[DFRESH]

Getting closer to getting the wheels.

Beautiful--that is gonna look amazing on the red car---I can't wait to see them on it. Hurry up---lol.

[Stovebolter]

Beautiful--that is gonna look amazing on the red car---I can't wait to see them on it. Hurry up---lol.

Lol. Im excited too. Lol.

[Stovebolter]

Pulled 12 bolt to check clearances with new wheels. Time to call Moser.:G-Dub:

David

[Stovebolter]

55" hub to hub. Rotor/hubs/calipers should be out of harms way with 6" back space.

[Stovebolter]

It's been a slow go but I finally have an entire, properly machined, clean finished set of wheels as of February 2014. I have installed the True Turn system and made a quick test trip on the front wheels. Man I love this set up. Amazing difference in handling. I'm still working on the 9" floater. I have it mocked up on make shift stands so I can emulate the car at ride height. Working on making my lower links thanks to Ballistic Fabrication and Spohn Performance. Also making a air/hydraulic tubing bender to make my own version of a Watts link and torque arm suspension. I'll be updating now more often. Lol.

David

[Stovebolter]

I hate IPads.

[Stovebolter]

One pic at a time.

[Stovebolter]

And another.

[Stovebolter]

The rear.

[Stovebolter]

Nodular case/locker/ and gear set from Rousch Yates.

[Stovebolter]

Couple more.

[Stovebolter]

And ......

[Stovebolter]

One more.

[Payton King]

Love the gold rims! Wanted to do that for my car but I have monoblock wheels.

[Stovebolter]

Love the gold rims! Wanted to do that for my car but I have monoblock wheels.

Thanks Payton. The wheel centers were suppose to be a gloss bronzish color but they were having trouble repeating the first color so I requested the race gold satin.

And thanks for the help behind the scenes! It has helped immensely.

David

[Angry]

Great stuff cant wait to see more

[Rybar]

Looks fantastic, love the wheels and the stance is killer. What is your front setup and do you have clearance with it that low?

[Stovebolter]

Looks fantastic, love the wheels and the stance is killer. What is your front setup and do you have clearance with it that low?

That is with the front air springs empty. Honestly I was wondering if the frame would lay flat on the ground. Not. Lol. The outer edge of the front tires were sitting on the inner fender at its curl. I'm setting this up where ride height is at Ridetech's suggested height. I love this setup. :D

David

[Stovebolter]

Thought I'd post a few pictures of the clearance I have at ride height with the 18X9.5 front wheels with the 5.75" bs on 275/35/18 BFG's. I am not finished with the inner fenders. I'm waiting until I am sure I don't need more clearance before I pull them off and finish welding them. Just for the guys that are curious about my clearance.

David

[Stovebolter]

Yes I'm on my Ipad again......

[Stovebolter]

So one at a time.....

[Stovebolter]

And another....

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And one more....

[Stovebolter]

I made a little more progress this weekend. Made the caliper mounts and tacked them in.

[Stovebolter]

Also got the LCA's set where I wanted them. 0 degrees.

[Stovebolter]

And the torque tube started. Looks like Im going with a 60" torque tube to simplify packaging. This will allow me to mount the pivot end directly to back of transmission mount.

[Stovebolter]

Ooops. Out of order. Here's another of the LCA with Johnny Joints from Spohn performance. I intentionally off set them. Oh....and that's actually not rust above them. Lol. Although I am changing the floor pan this summer. Lol.

[Stovebolter]

Got the trunk pan cut out. I decided I couldn't get the upper Airwaves mounted where I wanted it without cutting it.

[Stovebolter]

And the upper Airwave mount bar mocked up.

[Payton King]

Coming along nicely!

[Stovebolter]

Thank you. Slow and steady. I swear sometimes I meet myself coming in from the shop. Lol.

I should mention that I may keep the big block and add a T56 Magnum. And also add a 509 cu in stroker rotating assembly. But I'm still fretting over the stack injection. :G-Dub: I may go with an AMD Al front end to offset some of the weight. Its a constant battle with myself over what should be done. Lol.

David

[Stovebolter]

Been a while. Here's a few updates. I'm experimenting with a side exit exhaust system. Just a mock up for now. Already wanting to change some things.

[Stovebolter]

And another....

[Stovebolter]

And another one....

[Stovebolter]

Mock up of the lightened torque arm.

[Stovebolter]

And yet another....

[Stovebolter]

All I lack is the spot calipers which Jason with The GMR has just shipped out.

[Stovebolter]

Amazing how scarce the real estate is under here. Finally found space for the rear sway bar.

[Stovebolter]

Looking forward to getting this thing off its stands for a test drive.

[waynieZ]

Looking good!

[Stovebolter]

Looking good!

Thank you sir!

[Payton King]

Yea, that is looking pretty damn sporty right there. You are still killing me with the gold rims. I have been talking about running a set for 2 years and ended up getting silver, I may need to paint them.

[Stovebolter]

Yea, that is looking pretty damn sporty right there. You are still killing me with the gold rims. I have been talking about running a set for 2 years and ended up getting silver, I may need to paint them.

I love the gold centers. I think the gold would look good on your car. Nothing a rattle can of gold paint won't cure Payton. Lol. :yes:

[GrabberGT]

And another....

Looks nice... Where did you get the parts to build this?

[Stovebolter]

Looks nice... Where did you get the parts to build this?

Thanks Chris. I can't take much credit though. I somewhat mirrored another design of a Watts link I had bought and visually used the pictures from Payton Kings Dead Cat Camaro to design the frame for the link. I decided I didn't want the bolt on link frame that I bought. I like these things welded in permanently. Lol.

As far as the rotating link....it uses a pair of simple bearings 1/2" wide with a 3/4" hole in the inner race. I bored a hole in a chunk of 1" plate in a boring mill. Then cut two pieces of 1/4" plate for the outside pieces longer for the links themselves. As you can see I then used 6 machine bolts to fit the outer plates to the inner....to keep the bearings in. I'll add a better picture of it if I can find one.

As far as the links.....I used tube adapters from an offroad company called Ballistic Fabrication.

Let me know if you have more questions.

David

[Stovebolter]

Here's another.

[Stovebolter]

I really feel like I have over engineered this stuff. Heavy wall tubing, very large heim ends, and extra gussets to combat side loading the brackets. A guy could do this with lighter stuff I'm sure. For me.....the fabricating is the fun stuff. Everyone will get to hear me moan and groan when it comes to doing body work and making it pretty. Lol. Although I am excited to get to put some red through my Iwata. The last 5 vehicles Ive painted have all been black. Lol.

[Stovebolter]

I'm really digging the Trans Am wing like this one. Hmmmmmm.....

[Stovebolter]

It's been awhile since my last update. Very slow going for a home built project. Hope to have it back on the road in a couple weeks. Then wait till next spring to do the drive train. And the year after paint and body. I got the rear painted, put back together, and safety wired. Decided I like the color that was meant for the underside of the car so much that I may paint the whole car bronze. This color really pops in the sun.

[Stovebolter]

And some more.....

[Stovebolter]

And another.......

[Stovebolter]

For some reason with an Ipad I can't attatch more than one picture at a time. Bummer.

[Stovebolter]

And again.....

[Stovebolter]

One more.....

[Stovebolter]

On a different note, we got the El Camino back in shape. I'm still trying to convince him to pro tour it.

[Stovebolter]

The proud owner....after four years of labor. Lol.

[Stovebolter]

And another

[Rick D]

Nice job, I like the color!! Who's rear suspension are you using? Also what rear caliper brackets are those? They look like they are welded to the axel tubes?

[Stovebolter]

Nice job, I like the color!! Who's rear suspension are you using? Also what rear caliper brackets are those? They look like they are welded to the axel tubes?

Thanks Rick. The rear is of my own design so to speak. I had a lot of help from many members. Used Air Ride TQs. Made my own air over hydraulic tubing bender and started bending. Caliper brackets are my design. Laid out on poster board and cut out of 3/8" plate. Yeah....I'm an off road guy. Lol. Yes. Welded. The trick was getting the calipers centered back on the rotor after welding. A couple whacks with a 5 lb sledge. Centered perfect. Checked toe and camber. Everything checked good.

[Payton King]

I like the progress. Make sure you run axle seals in that thing...and they will still leak a little.

[Stovebolter]

I like the progress. Make sure you run axle seals in that thing...and they will still leak a little.

Thanks Payton. I believe I read somewhere that Moser has improved the design of the seals. Man those buggers are a pita to get in without damaging the first o-ring. But I got them. I opted for normal high temp disc brake wheel bearing grease. I read to stay away from the tacky synthetic grease because it wouldn't stay in the bearing. Oh....and thanks for your help Payton.

[tubbed69]

Very nice work,rear end looks really good:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Stovebolter]

Very nice work,rear end looks really good:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thank you sir! You have a very slick car yourself. Wish I was that far along. Lol. :D

[Stovebolter]

Well....I've been enjoying my car all week. Bought an inexpensive castor/camber gauge and aligned it myself last night. I just don't trust a shop that won't let me be involved with alignment process. And I don't give a hoot about their legal concerns. Went with Camber: -1.3 Castor: +6.0 Toe: 1/8". And I am absolutley tickled with this suspension. Wow! And plenty of clearance now in the wheel house.

[Stovebolter]

And it rides like a dream! These pictures are once again with it laid out. I'll get some good pictures this weekend.

[SlowProgress]

Very nice ! I like the way you knocked it out in a reasonable time and did everything yourself. The stance is killer !!

[Stovebolter]

Thank you. I'm doing this in three phases over the course of three years. This year was suspension brakes, next year engine and transmission, and the next body, cage, interior, paint. It's been fun so far.

[WSSix]

Looks great laid out! Glad the car rides well for you, too.

[Richio1]

Looking good.

[Decline]

Excellent work on the designing and building your own rear set-up. Fab ninja status for sure, and in a very reasonable amount of time.
I'm gonna be running a similar torque arm/floater set up in my car and I think I've been collecting the bolt on parts for about as long as it took you to build yours from scratch..lol
The car looks great with the red paint gold rim combo. I had a red subaru SVX once and I always wanted to put the gold BBS STI wheels on it.
Nice build!

[Stovebolter]

Thanks everyone. As you all know, even in times of aggrevation......it's still a labor of love, or is it love of labor. Lol.

I think I'll pull the center section and check my clearances again. I fully expected the normal clicking and binding sounds out of the locker, but not the heat. Wow. Drive 20 miles and the housing is hot. I'm seeing conversation here and there on forums indication this is normal, but now after 150 miles it seems like my pinion backlash has changed, which could only mean wear. I'm a little nervous to find out the results.

[Ron in SoCal]

Car looks awesome! Even better that you have no rubbing and are happy with the performance. Plus you made it! :thumbsup:

Looks like the caster is moving the front wheel back a bit in the wheel well or is it just the pic angle? In reality, it shouldn't matter if everything fits and you get the performance you're looking for. :cheers:

[Stovebolter]

Car looks awesome! Even better that you have no rubbing and are happy with the performance. Plus you made it! :thumbsup:

Looks like the caster is moving the front wheel back a bit in the wheel well or is it just the pic angle? In reality, it shouldn't matter if everything fits and you get the performance you're looking for. :cheers:

Thanks Ron. I hope it's the picture. No really I noticed this the other day. At one point the tire is touching the firewall. Barely. Just enough to mar the tar rubbish previous owner used all over the underside of car. Do you think 6 is too much? I was just going off of what Bret suggested. The other side matches. I really dislike wheels that aren't centered in their wheel openings. Lol.

I could go with the 3.7 built into the spindles and use the nice single flat shims to get my camber. At this time I have a stack of 3/4" of shims on the back bolts to get the 6 degrees.

I'll have think about this one.

[Payton King]

Car looks great by the way!

I would keep the 6 degrees. Sub frame should have enough adjustment to move it forward. Make sure when you are moving it forward you have the core support loose, and steering column at the firewall seal and under the dash. No need to take it off of the steering box.

[Ron in SoCal]

You're welcome Sir and I hope I didn't cause you any concern. If Brett said six, then that will be best for handling based on their geometry and spindle KPI. As far as looks...that's a compromise only you can make. If it's rubbing, you gotta look into that and see what can be done. Caster can be gotten in more than one way. Call RT and I guarantee you'll be happy with their service.

I say function over form these days. I blame 'Secret Sauce' for that :D

:cheers:

[Stovebolter]

Car looks great by the way!

I would keep the 6 degrees. Sub frame should have enough adjustment to move it forward. Make sure when you are moving it forward you have the core support loose, and steering column at the firewall seal and under the dash. No need to take it off of the steering box.

Thanks Payton. I still have a long road ahead but by doing it in stages I enjoy it in between. Lol.

I didn't realize there was adjustment in the frame to body mounts. That's great to hear because I have a set of stock height aluminum frame bushings waiting for me at the shop. :D

David

[Stovebolter]

You're welcome Sir and I hope I didn't cause you any concern. If Brett said six, then that will be best for handling based on their geometry and spindle KPI. As far as looks...that's a compromise only you can make. If it's rubbing, you gotta look into that and see what can be done. Caster can be gotten in more than one way. Call RT and I guarantee you'll be happy with their service.

I say function over form these days. I blame 'Secret Sauce' for that :D

:cheers:

Oh I'm really not a worry wort. Or am I? <A.D.D kicks in> What were we talking about? Oh yeah....beer Friday. :cheers:

David

[Rick D]

Nice job Dave, the shot of it layed out has got to be the money shot!!

What are your overall plans for the car? I love how your building it in stages, keeps it from being a loooong project for sure.

[Stovebolter]

Nice job Dave, the shot of it layed out has got to be the money shot!!

What are your overall plans for the car? I love how your building it in stages, keeps it from being a loooong project for sure.

Thanks Rick. Overall plans.....next year LS3 with Procharger and 6speed....year after body, paint, interior. Probably do a few custom metal mods for the body here and there. I'm really liking some of the mods I'm seeing in here. If I can pull off mild side skirts, a milder wing (really like Razor), and custom valence I'll be happy. Its all just for fun for me. I love fabricating. Its my favorite part of the build.

David

[Stovebolter]

This is at suggested ride height.

[Stovebolter]

I hate cameras but I have to prove my girls wrong and post this. Lol.

[Stovebolter]

Had a great day with these little ladies. They loved the car.

[Stovebolter]

And Aisha was my chauffeur all day. She did great. Likes to ride reeeeal close to the right curb.....but otherwise did fine. No mishaps. She loves the car.

[Flash68]

Car looks great David! As does the fam. :cheers:

[Stovebolter]

Well thanks Dave. So does yours....and congrats on the new member of the family! 👍

David

[waynieZ]

The family looks great and so does the car. My father used to tell me I was too close to the parked cars but luckily I never got one. Nice job.

[Stovebolter]

The family looks great and so does the car. My father used to tell me I was too close to the parked cars but luckily I never got one. Nice job.

Thanks. Its amazing just what you see from the passenger seat perspective. Lol.

[tubbed69]

Dave that's great pics with the family enjoying the car,cars looking really good.Also sounds like you have a smart plan in place,good luck:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Stovebolter]

Dave that's great pics with the family enjoying the car,cars looking really good.Also sounds like you have a smart plan in place,good luck:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks. I need the luck....and my wife could use just a bit more patience. Lol. :catfight:

David

[Stovebolter]

Yesterday I took the car out on a very curvy road......in the sticks and pushed it a little through some 15MPH curves. Yes we have lots of them in the rural areas. All I can say....Wow. That 'By the seat of the pants' feel. Late brake.....on the throttle hard mid apex. The big block, auto in 2nd with 3.80 diff, really puts the car through its pace in slow curves. I can't imagine how hard you guys push these cars at the track. Can the point of no return even be noticed with these huge tires? Lol.

Happy to report....no rubbing. Brakes are performing perfectly. Love this car. Ready for the LS and 6 speed. Ok. Maybe not....kind of worn out. Need the break.

David

[Toreback]

I think I am going to have to mini tub my car now. they look so much better with those fat meats under them.

[Stovebolter]

I think I am going to have to mini tub my car now. they look so much better with those fat meats under them.

The best part is they remain functional, unlike the Pro Street era. They weren't much for handling with the big and littles back then. Lol.

[Nativefx]

Great looking car! I see you stuck with the 5.75" BS even though your wheels are a little narrower than the 10" Ridetech says will fit with that BS and the Tru-turn set-up on stock subframe. Even though you are still running 275/35/18 tires, do you think this gave you a little more clearance so you don't have rubbing issues? I'm trying to decide on rim width and BS at the moment and don't want to push the limits to much and then find out I have to modify my fenders. I'll thinking about either 9" - 9.5" wide in the front with 265/35/18.

What tire size are you running on the rear and is the backspacing 6"? I know your rims are 18x12 but didn't see any tire size or BS. I'm looking at 19's for the rear and debating on 11" - 12" as I want to run a 325/30/19 tire. Just looking for help to determine what will fit with as little problems as possible on my 69 Firebird. Obviously a shortened rear end will be needed, but not sure if i'll go with a floater. I'm also running the RT air set up for the exact reason you can see in your photos!:excited:

[waynieZ]

Happy to report....no rubbing. Brakes are performing perfectly. Love this car. Ready for the LS and 6 speed. Ok. Maybe not....kind of worn out. Need the break.

David[/QUOTE]

Great news! Its so nice when you take them out and come back with a minimal punch list.

[Stovebolter]

Great looking car! I see you stuck with the 5.75" BS even though your wheels are a little narrower than the 10" Ridetech says will fit with that BS and the Tru-turn set-up on stock subframe. Even though you are still running 275/35/18 tires, do you think this gave you a little more clearance so you don't have rubbing issues? I'm trying to decide on rim width and BS at the moment and don't want to push the limits to much and then find out I have to modify my fenders. I'll thinking about either 9" - 9.5" wide in the front with 265/35/18.

What tire size are you running on the rear and is the backspacing 6"? I know your rims are 18x12 but didn't see any tire size or BS. I'm looking at 19's for the rear and debating on 11" - 12" as I want to run a 325/30/19 tire. Just looking for help to determine what will fit with as little problems as possible on my 69 Firebird. Obviously a shortened rear end will be needed, but not sure if i'll go with a floater. I'm also running the RT air set up for the exact reason you can see in your photos!:excited:

I believe it gave me the clearance I needed, but I have to stress that I did modify the inner fender considerably. I personally can't see how even a 1" narrower wheel would clear the factory inner with anything lower than a stock height suspension. As far as rear, I'm running the 335s on the rear with 6" bs. Let me tell you.....its tight in there with the 335s. Lol. I think I have 1/4" of clearance on either side of my tire of both wheels. But....the previous owner had rolled the lips of both wheels wells. If I were you....I would plan on rolling the lips on the rear openings.....and plan on modifying the inner wheel house. I rolled my fronts until they were straight up....split the inner in several places up to the highest point of housing and cut at the flange, allowing me to push each piece up and added a filler piece behind the flange.

If I could do it over again, personally I would stay with the 9.5's and add 1/2" of bs. Then I would notch and fill the needed space at the frame under full lock. But that's just my car. After a lot of measuring i determined that I was lucky to have a frame in perfect shape.

[Stovebolter]

Great looking car! I see you stuck with the 5.75" BS even though your wheels are a little narrower than the 10" Ridetech says will fit with that BS and the Tru-turn set-up on stock subframe. Even though you are still running 275/35/18 tires, do you think this gave you a little more clearance so you don't have rubbing issues? I'm trying to decide on rim width and BS at the moment and don't want to push the limits to much and then find out I have to modify my fenders. I'll thinking about either 9" - 9.5" wide in the front with 265/35/18.

What tire size are you running on the rear and is the backspacing 6"? I know your rims are 18x12 but didn't see any tire size or BS. I'm looking at 19's for the rear and debating on 11" - 12" as I want to run a 325/30/19 tire. Just looking for help to determine what will fit with as little problems as possible on my 69 Firebird. Obviously a shortened rear end will be needed, but not sure if i'll go with a floater. I'm also running the RT air set up for the exact reason you can see in your photos!:excited:

The only thing that I have found that disappoints me is the turning radius of this car. I can't remember how the car felt in parking lots before the Ridetech Trueturn conversion. That may just be the nature of the 1rs gen Camaro? I even left out the stops on the a arms....still wish my tires would turn in more.

[Stovebolter]

Happy to report....no rubbing. Brakes are performing perfectly. Love this car. Ready for the LS and 6 speed. Ok. Maybe not....kind of worn out. Need the break.

David

Great news! Its so nice when you take them out and come back with a minimal punch list.[/QUOTE]

Wayne,

Other than the turning radius being bigger than I would like......I love this set up! I also have to do some tuning on the torque arm. Good thing I built a lot of adjustment into this thing and had help from members here (thanks to Payton, Ron, and Jay) in judging where to start for mounting points. I have a little bit of wheel hop but not severe.

David

[coolwelder62]

What an Awesome project. You have a beautiful Family.Keep up the great work.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Stovebolter]

What an Awesome project. You have a beautiful Family.Keep up the great work.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks Scott.

[Nativefx]

I believe it gave me the clearance I needed, but I have to stress that I did modify the inner fender considerably. I personally can't see how even a 1" narrower wheel would clear the factory inner with anything lower than a stock height suspension. As far as rear, I'm running the 335s on the rear with 6" bs. Let me tell you.....its tight in there with the 335s. Lol. I think I have 1/4" of clearance on either side of my tire of both wheels. But....the previous owner had rolled the lips of both wheels wells. If I were you....I would plan on rolling the lips on the rear openings.....and plan on modifying the inner wheel house. I rolled my fronts until they were straight up....split the inner in several places up to the highest point of housing and cut at the flange, allowing me to push each piece up and added a filler piece behind the flange.

If I could do it over again, personally I would stay with the 9.5's and add 1/2" of bs. Then I would notch and fill the needed space at the frame under full lock. But that's just my car. After a lot of measuring i determined that I was lucky to have a frame in perfect shape.

The only thing that I have found that disappoints me is the turning radius of this car. I can't remember how the car felt in parking lots before the Ridetech Trueturn conversion. That may just be the nature of the 1rs gen Camaro? I even left out the stops on the a arms....still wish my tires would turn in more.

Thanks for all your help. I'm looking at running 18 x 9.5" w/5.5" BS in the front with a 265/35/18 Pilot Super Sport tire. For the rear I'm looking at a 19 x 11.5" w/5" BS in the rear with a 325/30/19 Pilot Super Sport. These will be going on some Forgeline 2" Concave series wheels, so hopefully I'll get the look I want and still have a decent lip in the rear. With Foreglines sale going on, I'm trying to get this pinned down to place my order.

Taking in the difference in brakes that has been long discussed and how much the rotor hat can change the width in the front, I'm hoping we are somewhat close as you are running the Kore C6 Z06 calipers which I believe increase width on the front? I'm running the Baer 6P 14" which is the same setup Ridetech used on their mockup so hopefully I should be okay. A little modification to the front inner fenders is okay, I just don't want a WHOLE lot of problems getting them to fit. You said your turning radius has changed, but if you don't have much rubbing on the frame or control arms how did your turning radius become affected?

[Stovebolter]

Thanks for all your help. I'm looking at running 18 x 9.5" w/5.5" BS in the front with a 265/35/18 Pilot Super Sport tire. For the rear I'm looking at a 19 x 11.5" w/5" BS in the rear with a 325/30/19 Pilot Super Sport. These will be going on some Forgeline 2" Concave series wheels, so hopefully I'll get the look I want and still have a decent lip in the rear. With Foreglines sale going on, I'm trying to get this pinned down to place my order.

Taking in the difference in brakes that has been long discussed and how much the rotor hat can change the width in the front, I'm hoping we are somewhat close as you are running the Kore C6 Z06 calipers which I believe increase width on the front? I'm running the Baer 6P 14" which is the same setup Ridetech used on their mockup so hopefully I should be okay. A little modification to the front inner fenders is okay, I just don't want a WHOLE lot of problems getting them to fit. You said your turning radius has changed, but if you don't have much rubbing on the frame or control arms how did your turning radius become affected?

Yes...I think Tobins rotors add 1/4" per side in track width but it would be best to ask him. As far as turning radius....I think it's because I'm use to driving modern cars with rack and pinion steering. Lol. But seriously.....it seems like my turning radius is worse. I've got myself in a couple situations where I had to make two stabs at turning into a business. Think I may be spoiled with modern car-itis.

[Nativefx]

When you were mocking up your rear end and placed the wheels/tires under the car, how much room did you leave between the tire and outer fender? Also between the inner fender and tire?

I just placed my order for some Forgelines 19x11.5 with 5"BS and i'm planning to run 325/30/19 Super Sport tires so i'm hopeful with the 69 fenders I also won't have any rubbing issues if I measure correctly to order a shortened rear end.

[Stovebolter]

When you were mocking up your rear end and placed the wheels/tires under the car, how much room did you leave between the tire and outer fender? Also between the inner fender and tire?

I just placed my order for some Forgelines 19x11.5 with 5"BS and i'm planning to run 325/30/19 Super Sport tires so i'm hopeful with the 69 fenders I also won't have any rubbing issues if I measure correctly to order a shortened rear end.

I mounted my tires on the wheels, placed them in the wheel wells, dropped the car to ride height and measured between the wheels. That's the same suggestion others on here gave me. And it worked out for me. It will tell you what you need for distance wheel mount to wheel mount. BTW....you should have a little extra room with the 325s and a mini tub compared to my set up.

[Nativefx]

I mounted my tires on the wheels, placed them in the wheel wells, dropped the car to ride height and measured between the wheels. That's the same suggestion others on here gave me. And it worked out for me. It will tell you what you need for distance wheel mount to wheel mount. BTW....you should have a little extra room with the 325s and a mini tub compared to my set up.

Yeah, I understood the measuring for WMS to WMS. i was just wondering how much space you left between the tire sidewall and the outer fender? Did you leave more space between the inner fender and tire sidewall, or did you just center the tire and leave equal distance on each side? I'm hoping with the 325 I do have a little more room as I really hope i don't have any rubbing issues.

[Payton King]

As long as your TA is and I assume it is 6 to 8 inches at the front at ride height, your wheel hop is probably coming from shock dampening and spring rate if I were to guess.

[Payton King]

Where is your watts piviot in relationship to axle centerline?

[Stovebolter]

Yeah, I understood the measuring for WMS to WMS. i was just wondering how much space you left between the tire sidewall and the outer fender? Did you leave more space between the inner fender and tire sidewall, or did you just center the tire and leave equal distance on each side? I'm hoping with the 325 I do have a little more room as I really hope i don't have any rubbing issues.

I centered the tire and ended up with roughly a 1/4" of clearance on both sides of the tires......inside and outside.

[Stovebolter]

Where is your watts piviot in relationship to axle centerline?

I'll have to check it again but if memory serves me correct, it is just above axle center line. I have air springs.....I could move the mount points up or down but I'd sacrafice travel up or down. I could slow up my rebound and leave my compression where it is. That makes sense. That should counteract the hop. I'll try it.

Thanks again Payton.

[Payton King]

With it above center line you have raised the roll center and loosened the rear. The lower you go the more bite you will have in the rear. Try an inch or 2 below axle centerline. Is your watts fixed or adjustable? I assume your rear trailing arms are level at ride height

[Stovebolter]

With it above center line you have raised the roll center and loosened the rear. The lower you go the more bite you will have in the rear. Try an inch or 2 below axle centerline. Is your watts fixed or adjustable? I assume your rear trailing arms are level at ride height

Yes, trailing arms are adjustable at rear mount....but level at ride height at this time. I may be wrong on the front mounting point. I remember you gave me roughly what yours was set at, and I added 2"s of adjustment in 1" increments both ways and took in consideration the axle centerline. I bet it's below. That would make better sense. I'll check it when I can get to the shop.

And Watts Link has a lot of adjustment.

Thanks.

[Payton King]

I was not speaking about the front mount. I would guess it is 6 to 8 inches from the ground at ride height. I am speaking of the watts pivot in relation to your axle centerline at ride height. The lower the pivot the more bite you will have up to a point. I would start it at or 1 inch below axle centerline and start messing with the shocks.

Increasing the rebound valving like you stated earlier would help as well.

[Stovebolter]

I was not speaking about the front mount. I would guess it is 6 to 8 inches from the ground at ride height. I am speaking of the watts pivot in relation to your axle centerline at ride height. The lower the pivot the more bite you will have up to a point. I would start it at or 1 inch below axle centerline and start messing with the shocks.

Increasing the rebound valving like you stated earlier would help as well.

Lol. I over complicate things often. Yes...the front mount is about 5.5" from ground. At this time the Watts link pivot point is centered with relation to axle center line. I'll try raising it an inch and see what I get with a little more dampening on rebound. Man these TQ shocks are cool. Reminds me of my days competing in the Hare Scrambles via woods MX. Same adjustments available.

[Stovebolter]

Tell me it isn't so...are we going to lose Heartland to the city of Topeka for not paying their bills? I hope they keep it open. If not that puts my closest track with Elkhart. Frustrated.

[Nativefx]

You mentioned this picture was at the "suggested" ride height. Can you tell me what that is or where you got the info? Is it a specific measurement somewhere?

I got my wheels in and I'm trying to get camber set close to -0.5 to -1.0 as suggested so i can see what kind of work I might need to do to inner/outer fenders.

thanks (sorry couldn't figure out how to copy the picture you had attached for reference)



This is at suggested ride height.

[Stovebolter]

You mentioned this picture was at the "suggested" ride height. Can you tell me what that is or where you got the info? Is it a specific measurement somewhere?

I got my wheels in and I'm trying to get camber set close to -0.5 to -1.0 as suggested so i can see what kind of work I might need to do to inner/outer fenders.

thanks (sorry couldn't figure out how to copy the picture you had attached for reference)

I can't remember what it was off hand right now. I got the info from Ridetech. You would think that info would be in the instructions as it is vital to set-up. The measurement is from top of coil over top mount point to bottom of coil over mount point, which is just over the half way point of total travel.

For the front, on my car with 1" drop spindles, it placed the front body line at roughly 24 1/4" to the ground. I built a 1" rake into the car so the back body line is at 25 1//4". But if I were you I would call them as they may have changed things up a little and using my body line measurements would not be very accurate.

David

[Nativefx]

I can't remember what it was off hand right now. I got the info from Ridetech. You would think that info would be in the instructions as it is vital to set-up. The measurement is from top of coil over top mount point to bottom of coil over mount point, which is just over the half way point of total travel.

For the front, on my car with 1" drop spindles, it placed the front body line at roughly 24 1/4" to the ground. I built a 1" rake into the car so the back body line is at 25 1//4". But if I were you I would call them as they may have changed things up a little and using my body line measurements would not be very accurate.

David

Thanks David. In the instructions for the front they only indicate setting ride height at about 50%-60% of suspension travel. I'm trying to get my camber set close to -0.5 at ride height to see what mods I need to do to both inner/outer fenders. As we haven't finished the body work and paint on the fenders they are not currently on the car so I was hoping I'd at least be able to get an idea where to measure other than fender line. Maybe I'll set on ground at full height, measure and then do same at lowest height to get an approximate height to shoot for around 50%. I should then at least be able to see how much work to inner fender I need to do and whether I need to roll outer only, or possible do slight trimming.

You mentioned you went with -1.5 camber, +6 caster, and I think +1/8 toe and it was recommended by Rod. How is your tire wear with that setup? It seems that would be more for autocross rather than street. Any thoughts or changes you are considering?

thanks, Jake

[Stovebolter]

Thanks David. In the instructions for the front they only indicate setting ride height at about 50%-60% of suspension travel. I'm trying to get my camber set close to -0.5 at ride height to see what mods I need to do to both inner/outer fenders. As we haven't finished the body work and paint on the fenders they are not currently on the car so I was hoping I'd at least be able to get an idea where to measure other than fender line. Maybe I'll set on ground at full height, measure and then do same at lowest height to get an approximate height to shoot for around 50%. I should then at least be able to see how much work to inner fender I need to do and whether I need to roll outer only, or possible do slight trimming.

You mentioned you went with -1.5 camber, +6 caster, and I think +1/8 toe and it was recommended by Rod. How is your tire wear with that setup? It seems that would be more for autocross rather than street. Any thoughts or changes you are considering

thanks, Jake

Yes that should be a Track/AutoX start setup I imagine. I haven't driven mine that much yet. Maybe 500 miles. I will move mine back to a street setting this spring. What would I change? Nothing really. I do want to move my subframe forward more. I think mine was probably way back when the guy I bought it from welded in the subframe connectors. I'll also be pulling the subframe out, re welding the factory welds. Also plan on adding something like Global Wests forward bars, of my own design. I do wish I had the new cross shafts which come in the new kits that allow easy caster adjustments via offset slugs, but there's no way in Hates I'll buy something from them that should've came in my kit. The adjustable cross shafts were out prior to my order. Aggrevating! Lol. Which is why I'm coming up with something different from Ridetech's system on my air ride controls.

David

[Stovebolter]

Jake,

Below is the email conversion about setting ride height per Josh at Ridetech. But again you better make sure they haven't changed their shocks. They may have added more stroke to the shock.

"Hey David,

Thanks alot, we appreciate it!

On the front, your shock, from eye to stud mount (the hole in the pocket) will be 12.75"~. On the rear, from center to center on the mounting bolts will be right around 14.5". That is where the shocks will have their best ride quality/performance.

I will have to check on the engine mounts, I know we used the Holley oil pan, but for some reason I'm thinking we used a GM style engine mount.

Thanks,

Josh"


You mentioned this picture was at the "suggested" ride height. Can you tell me what that is or where you got the info? Is it a specific measurement somewhere?

I got my wheels in and I'm trying to get camber set close to -0.5 to -1.0 as suggested so i can see what kind of work I might need to do to inner/outer fenders.

thanks (sorry couldn't figure out how to copy the picture you had attached for reference)

[Nativefx]

Jake,

Below is the email conversion about setting ride height per Josh at Ridetech. But again you better make sure they haven't changed their shocks. They may have added more stroke to the shock.

"Hey David,

Thanks alot, we appreciate it!

On the front, your shock, from eye to stud mount (the hole in the pocket) will be 12.75"~. On the rear, from center to center on the mounting bolts will be right around 14.5". That is where the shocks will have their best ride quality/performance.

I will have to check on the engine mounts, I know we used the Holley oil pan, but for some reason I'm thinking we used a GM style engine mount.

Thanks,

Josh"

thanks David. Yes I have the newer version with the caster slugs. They only send you one set, which is supposed to be in the centered position. Instructions have a contradiction as one place says it has +2 caster and another place it says it is +3 caster. If you want additional caster you can order new aluminum slugs.

I'll have to figure out how to measure the 12.75" as you can't really put a tape measure down from the hole mount due to the inflated airbag. I should be able to at least get in a reasonable distance to start fitting the inner fender and figuring out how I want to modify.

[Nativefx]

I centered the tire and ended up with roughly a 1/4" of clearance on both sides of the tires......inside and outside.

Hey David, you don't happen to have any pictures looking up to see the clearance you have between the rear tire sidewall and the outer fender and inner fender do you? We pulled my stock rear end and I'm trying to get my WMS to WMS measurement to get a shortened rear end. I have plenty of room inside, but I'm trying to figure out how far outward I can position the wheels without rubbing. I don't like it when they are set too far in, especially on a 69 as the fender flares outward and it makes it look like the tire is already set back inside the fender.

thanks, Jake

[Stovebolter]

Hey David, you don't happen to have any pictures looking up to see the clearance you have between the rear tire sidewall and the outer fender and inner fender do you? We pulled my stock rear end and I'm trying to get my WMS to WMS measurement to get a shortened rear end. I have plenty of room inside, but I'm trying to figure out how far outward I can position the wheels without rubbing. I don't like it when they are set too far in, especially on a 69 as the fender flares outward and it makes it look like the tire is already set back inside the fender.

thanks, Jake

Jake,

I sure don't. I've never had it high enough to get pictures of the underside. You might check with Payton King or one of the other guys. I use to have some good pictures of Dead Cat but I've must have lost them or deleted them. I can say that 18X12s with a 6" bs and a rear with a 55.5" wms to wms worked for me. My rear is actually 54" wms to wms but I am using 3/4" spacers on both sides to keep the spindle under the center caps on the wheels. Me rear is a floater. The only alternative for me would've been to add that 3/4" to each wheel center thickness when they were made.

David

[Nativefx]

Jake,

I sure don't. I've never had it high enough to get pictures of the underside. You might check with Payton King or one of the other guys. I use to have some good pictures of Dead Cat but I've must have lost them or deleted them. I can say that 18X12s with a 6" bs and a rear with a 55.5" wms to wms worked for me. My rear is actually 54" wms to wms but I am using 3/4" spacers on both sides to keep the spindle under the center caps on the wheels. Me rear is a floater. The only alternative for me would've been to add that 3/4" to each wheel center thickness when they were made.

David

Hi David, I was just looking for something similar to this.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s626/Nativefx/69%20Firebird%20-%20buid/c88ff939-c6fe-4aa0-9aed-4e7f7ad08cba_zpsr0h6v2qp.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Nativefx/media/69%20Firebird%20-%20buid/c88ff939-c6fe-4aa0-9aed-4e7f7ad08cba_zpsr0h6v2qp.jpg.html)

I'm just trying to figure out how close to the outside fender I can get without rubbing not only during driving but also when setting the AirRide completely down as I noticed the inner rear fender actually bulges in ward a little before going up and curving over.

Based on your 55.5" WMS to WMS (including spacers) and your 12" wheel widths and 6" BS, it should measure outside to outside of the tires very much the same as my rough measurements I got last night in my first attempt to measure my WMS to WMS. I came up with roughly 54.5" but my wheels are 11.5" wide and have a 5" BS. The spacing between the outside fender lip is the pic I attached above.

I'm measuring out to get a shortened rear end built and I'm also planning on going with a floater. I have more than enough room on the inside fender to inner wheel as its probably closer to 1 1/2" there. I'm just trying to set them as far out to the outside as possible so they don't look set in to the wheel well too far.

[Stovebolter]

Hi David, I was just looking for something similar to this.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s626/Nativefx/69%20Firebird%20-%20buid/c88ff939-c6fe-4aa0-9aed-4e7f7ad08cba_zpsr0h6v2qp.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Nativefx/media/69%20Firebird%20-%20buid/c88ff939-c6fe-4aa0-9aed-4e7f7ad08cba_zpsr0h6v2qp.jpg.html)

I'm just trying to figure out how close to the outside fender I can get without rubbing not only during driving but also when setting the AirRide completely down as I noticed the inner rear fender actually bulges in ward a little before going up and curving over.

Based on your 55.5" WMS to WMS (including spacers) and your 12" wheel widths and 6" BS, it should measure outside to outside of the tires very much the same as my rough measurements I got last night in my first attempt to measure my WMS to WMS. I came up with roughly 54.5" but my wheels are 11.5" wide and have a 5" BS. The spacing between the outside fender lip is the pic I attached above.

I'm measuring out to get a shortened rear end built and I'm also planning on going with a floater. I have more than enough room on the inside fender to inner wheel as its probably closer to 1 1/2" there. I'm just trying to set them as far out to the outside as possible so they don't look set in to the wheel well too far.

Looks like you did a better job rolling your lip in than the previous owner did on mine. I'll correct that later, no rubbing so far. I took a picture early this a.m. for you. With the rolled lip the distance is 1" to the face of tire

[Stovebolter]

And this one.....

[Stovebolter]

I apologize for not posting results in so long but my father passed from a tough bout with cancer in October and that along with another family crisis I just haven't felt like browsing forums.

At this time I can report that I've finished up my TA suspension (although I've decided I do need to put it on a diet), installed a new floor pan, a new fuel system end to end for the LS, installed the LS and T56 with the Holley system (mounts, long tube headers, cross member that I altered to accommodate the front mount of the TA, and HP EFI).

I'm now in the process of setting up the DSE dash insert with custom Speed Hut gauges, adding the Vintage air Gen IV, finally installing the Ridetech AirRide compressor system (placing a 3 gal tank in the pockets at rear of quarters on both sides, been using simple valves to add air up to this point). I'll add pictures of this process when I can collect them from my shop camera.

Made my first trip to mom's on Christmas and can say I really like the LS platform! Its been a joy to drive as long as I stay away from parking lots. I've lost a lot of turning radius with the Ridetech Tru Turn system. Slowly trying to sort through that issue. At this time, I imagine my only option is to move the Muscle Bar rearward on the frame to allow more turn radius and maybe notch the frame as needed at the rear. As others have noticed, my front wheels are well behind the center line of the wheel opening, which is causing the rear of the front tires to rub on the inner fender well during turning. I fear that Ridetech may have sent me the wrong control arms.

At this time my specs are as follows:

Ridetech Tru Turn system complete with TQ Airsprings and Muscle Bars
18X9.5 True Forged Competitions with 5.75" bs
275/35/18's
+5 Caster -1.5 Camber 1/16" toe in
Kore 3 C6 ZO6 hubs/rotors
Stock Height Frame bushings
Stock Subframe

[Stovebolter]

A few more updates

[Stovebolter]

https://www.facebook.com/DavidGelvin/videos/10154500371676632/?l=5830597456437385967

[dhutton]

What power steering hoses are those? They look great.

Don

[waynieZ]

What power steering hoses are those? They look great.

Don

When I saw the picture of the power steering lines, I scrolled down to ask the same question.

[Stovebolter]

They are from "Gotta Show". Very nice product but in the end I was unable to resolve a poor seal at the steering box. I have instead gone with adapters to AN hose. I was unable to tighten their fitting enough to eliminate the leak without pulling threads on their fitting eventually. I was able to keep my new Delphi 670 and with adaptors and AN hose eliminate the leak all together.

If you guys are using an OEM box it should be a non issue for you. Tom Lee altered a new Delphi 670 to work with OEM hoses by using one of his adaptors, which raises the sealing surface in the port, not allowing enough thread engagement. Had I not altered the 670 and had Gotta Show make metric ends I would've been fine. No ones fault on either side, just wouldn't work out the way I was using it.

[Stovebolter]

I should make mention for those who still wish to use the Ridetech Tru Turn system and stuff a 275/35/18 in their wheel house, this is basically what I have done to get the clearances inside the wheel house. It is very crude, and still incomplete to this day but it does function and I'll get around to finish welding, cleaning up, and sealing it proper eventually. lol

[Stovebolter]

Everything I have done so far is for a driving mock up. I have plans of installing a new crate LS3 later and have decided to ditch the twin turbos and the Maggy for a Pro Charger. Man I love the power curve on the DS1's.

[Stovebolter]

Most recent update. I've been driving the car a lot more and I'm really enjoying it. Probably just enjoy the car for a year or two, and tear it down for a proper restore.

[Stovebolter]

At ride height.

[Stovebolter]

Speedhuts/DSE complete. Much better gauge arrangement. I can actually see everything now.

[Stovebolter]

Really wanted to countersink the gauges. Maybe later.