Contemplating DSE Mini Tub...

[ADiCarlo]

So I'm thinking about doing the DSE mini tub kit on 68 Camaro seeing that it just got out of sandblasting.

Only this is... I don't weld :twak: (it's the last thing I really need to learn how to do car wise.. learn not master)

So I have to pay someone to do this and my current quote is about 2200 to 2800 to get it done. But my question or concern is.... I know tubs will be awesome, allow me to run bigger tires, get a better stance, grip better etc.

but am I throwing 3 grand on something that won't add any value to my car?

Pretty much would u say a car with mini tubs is worth 3 grand more than a car without em? Objectively..

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Are you building the car to sell? Nice thing about mini tubbing is it gives the owner options. Stock wheels or wide if they like.

I believe it would add value.

[tubbed69]

I think it sure does add to resale,not sure how much but I think it is money well spent,everyones doing it so that is good if you are reselling

[Sparks67]

Yes, it add value to the car. I had mine appraised for insurance and that is one of the questions they ask is it "mini-tubbed." Are you planning to change the rear suspension as well?

Jeff

[califconstruct]

Mini-Tubbing is the way to go, It really gives the car that sexy grounded look.
but also remember - if your going for that "look", it also means your shortening your axle :G-Dub: and then buying deep dish wheels..:G-Dub: . so technically, it doesn't stop at the tubs, that's where it starts.

good luck!.

[garickman]

I agree with everyone else. I think it will add value and if you ever decide to sell I think it would be a big selling feature.

[Sparks67]

Mini-Tubbing is the way to go, It really gives the car that sexy grounded look.
but also remember - if your going for that "look", it also means your shortening your axle and then buying deep dish wheels.. so technically, it doesn't stop at the tubs, that's where it starts.

good luck!.


When my project started in late 2004, I planned to mini-tub. My 67 RS camaro was getting a frame restoration, so it was perfect time to mini-tub. Although, I was also replace both quarter panels with NOS quarters. I also replaced the outer wheel well housings with NOS. The real advantage to mini-tubing is that you will find parts rusted out. It is also the perfect time to replace the rear suspension. Although, if OP is counting the pennies on how much it will cost. Then don't even start the project, it is expensive project.

Jeff

http://67rscamaro.smugmug.com

[ADiCarlo]

When my project started in late 2004, I planned to mini-tub. My 67 RS camaro was getting a frame restoration, so it was perfect time to mini-tub. Although, I was also replace both quarter panels with NOS quarters. I also replaced the outer wheel well housings with NOS. The real advantage to mini-tubing is that you will find parts rusted out. It is also the perfect time to replace the rear suspension. Although, if OP is counting the pennies on how much it will cost. Then don't even start the project, it is expensive project.

Jeff

http://67rscamaro.smugmug.com

Thanks everyone for your input. I am counting the pennies but I'm willing to spend them if it's just - I just would hate to spend a ton of money on something and have it be worthless in the end.

And when I say worthless I mean the price far exceeds the value like if it's 3k for a mini tub and my car is only worth 500 bucks more down the line. I can't bring myself to do it.

[Cole]

Your in the wrong game with that statement.

[srh3trinity]

If you keep hanging out here, you may regret not doing it. I had quarters and outer wheel houses done and decided not to mini tub at the time because I was just going to run a 10 inch wheel. I regret not doing it now. If you are replacing metal, now is the time.

[Sparks67]

And when I say worthless I mean the price far exceeds the value like if it's 3k for a mini tub and my car is only worth 500 bucks more down the line. I can't bring myself to do it.

Depends on what you build, a drag car. Don't expect to get much return on your investment. A friend of mine has an original 1969 Camaro SS 396, that was turned into a drag car. All of his original parts were sold to fund his racing habit. He knows that he won't get much money out of his 1969 Camaro, but he loves to drag race.

Pro-touring cars now are selling for big $$$, and first gen Camaro's are big $$$. Although, I never built mine to sell. I built it solely because it is my first car, and I plan to drive it. I have owned my 67 since 1983, but I always wanted it to handle like my 1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula 350. We spent lot of time on mine, but it was ideas that I had in the past.

Jeff

[ADiCarlo]

Depends on what you build, a drag car. Don't expect to get much return on your investment. A friend of mine has an original 1969 Camaro SS 396, that was turned into a drag car. All of his original parts were sold to fund his racing habit. He knows that he won't get much money out of his 1969 Camaro, but he loves to drag race.

Pro-touring cars now are selling for big $$$, and first gen Camaro's are big $$$. Although, I never built mine to sell. I built it solely because it is my first car, and I plan to drive it. I have owned my 67 since 1983, but I always wanted it to handle like my 1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula 350. We spent lot of time on mine, but it was ideas that I had in the past.

Jeff

I'm building a 68 with a pro touring auto x set up, not for drag. I build a car drive it around, if I get bored I post it up for sale and keep driving it till it sells, simple as that. But I'm really cautious on how much I spend on a build because I use that money from selling that car to build something bigger and better the next time around - simple as that. Maybe I'll love the car to death and will never wanna sell it Who Knows! until I start driving it.

I like building cars and bikes and this will be the 6th one I've built. I kinda go stir crazy if I don't have something to work on.

[The T-man]

do it

[Roger Edwards]

I agree. Do it.

[HMA]

Do it or else you wish you would have. I originally didn't want to do it and was perfectly content with a 275 on the rear.... Then I wanted 315s an it all started from there. As a result of not wanting to put the work in when I finally did do it it took 50 hours per side because the car was in new paint and about 10 hours per side was devoted just to protecting the paint and cleanup of the 3M paper adhesive. When I did the DSE mini tubs, you already have the back cut up for relocating the shocks, take it one step further and install the quadralink. I love my set-up and wish I would have done it right from the begining. Fortunately, all the time protecting the paint paid off, but that was not time well spent when I should have just done it when the car was in primer before the complete. Learn from my mistake and do it....

Evan

[Bsinclair]

my local chassis guy did mine for $600 and has since done several other forum members..

[Smoker03]

600 is cheap, where are you located?

[andrew5]

when i started building my nova,it's the first thing i did.do it now,nothing looks better than some nice 315"s tucked under there.

[69greyghost]

I am fighting with myself about this one too. I want to tub my car but I cant figure out if the cost justifies such a commitment. Some things on my car that werent mandatory I regretted later in a sense like my electric hideaway lights they are cool and I like them but 69 camaros look cool regardless, I would still love my car even without them. But they are kinda cool. I think a 10 inch wide tire is nice, Im sure wider is better but its a big commitment.

[camsdad]

I contemplated this issue as well during my build.
Struggled with it for several years.
Ended up not tubing for the same reasons you are struggling with.
In my case not enough readily available cash flow and too many additional things to change out or convert and too many pricy variables.
This site is like an addiction to spend more and pump it up. " I like it" :lolhit:
I had already purchased the Hotchkis rear leaf springs and Blistein shocks, stainless fuel tank, ext...
If I ever want to go the tub direction I can always take it to the next level.
Until then, I'm good for now.

Bottom line, It's your ride. Do what will make you happy.

[Vegas69]

If you are scraping $ together to tub it, I wouldn't. The bleeding only starts with the tubs. I'd throw together a square car. Meaning 275/275mm tires. The lowest investment with good taste will result in the smallest loss at resale.

[frojoe]

If you're even slightly contemplating it now, with the car newly paint-stripped and ripe for metal work, then there is no question you should go for it.

Just mini-tubing it does not lock you into "having" to get new tires/rims/axle, etc right now.

If you decide to sell it, it will increase re-sale no doubt, by how much, that is arguable.

Hands-down, if you don't do it now and you end up keeping the car, you're gonna be kicking yourself in a year or 2 time when you wish you had wider than 275 and the car has nice paint on it and all the suspensions bits are installed...

[Bangin' gears]

Save money by buying a decent 110V Mig welder for ~$500 and do the job yourself. :welder:

[70.5CamaroRS]

I've found that if you have the money and don't spend it, it will burn a hole in your pocket.

Chris

[Dipped]

I'd put the money towards a chassisworks Glink. It's less than the install quote you got. I have zero tubage and run a 295/30/20 with no body mods other than a rolled outer fender lip. IMO a first gen fbody looks silly with a 325-345 rear tire. Its a small car. Its like the juice heads at the gym with enormous upper body and little legs. All the costs don't justify the minimal advantages gained by tubbing. Again just my opinion.

[chr2002ca]

I went back and forth on this one also so I understand your dilemma. I've dumped a lot of money into my ride so money wasn't really the concern for me, it was just the time and effort and the actual 'necessity' of it. I don't think it's a bad investment though. You should be able to get most of your money back for the mod, but it all depends on the buyer. I just decided not to cut up my car and rear seat setup and leave it as is and run my 275x19s. My car is now pretty low in the back and it has a great stance and I don't think i needed 315's to make it look 'slammed' or 'grounded' or whatever. Yes, it would probably look a little more potent with slightly wider tires in the back, but not enough for it to be a necessity for me. Yes, I'll probably lose a little off my 60-foot times, but oh well. My happiness with the car doesn't depend on 10ths of a second. Plus, if you get those mini-tubs and you swap in big back tires(315+), then you need to focus on widening the fronts also or else you'll end up with too much grip in the back and you'll have a push in the corners. A lot of people who put those really wide tires on the back now struggle to get the fronts wide enough to balance the car. I've got a cage over the rear now along with my battery, so with that extra weight along with some soft 275's I'm getting some decent grip and feel like I can manage without the 315's. I put some 265's up front and dropped a lot of weight off the front so with the nearly square tires and the extra weight in the back along with less weight in the front, I'm getting a good balance. But that's just my take on what I need my street ride to be. Everyone's different. If you're trying to be competitive in racing or are just trying to get the absolute most out of your car, do the mini-tubs and think about what you're going to do up front also if you'll need balance. Again, it's not a bad investment and you'd probably get your money back for it. Either way, good luck with your build! :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Spot on as usual Mr. Robinson.

[Sparks67]

If you are scraping $ together to tub it, I wouldn't. The bleeding only starts with the tubs. I'd throw together a square car. Meaning 275/275mm tires. The lowest investment with good taste will result in the smallest loss at resale.

Of course, Todd! Went with a much bigger tire on the back. Is that 335 or 345?

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10129&page=13&highlight=payback

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/DSC_0395.jpg

Todd's money was gobbled in labor costs! On my 67 RS Camaro, a friend's dad and I did it. The advantage is doing it yourself is that you identify the weak spots is the rear sheetmetal frame.
I had 275's on my 67 in the past, but it was drag radial's. I also had a full cage in my car, but I wanted a different car that I could drive. So out went the 383 612 hp full roller small block, and the car was restored to pro-touring. I have changed my build several times, but basically boils down on your goals for your car. Cost was never an issue with me, but everyone has a budget. So, just keep that in mind.

Jeff

[Vegas69]

I started out with a 345 and ended up with a 335 for additional movement.

My opinion was based on him "scraping" together the money. I think Chris made a great point, you need to make room for a 275mm minimum up front if you mini tub as well which adds to the equation. I think it's important to be happy with what you can afford, NOW. Get the car on the road and enjoy it. Contrary to common belief, it is more fun to USE the car. :)

[Matt@BOS]

I agree with Todd and Chris. My two cents: Unless you have 600-700 horsepower, from a handling perspective, you're not gaining anything by minitubbing it. I'd argue that a non minitubbed car with 400-500 horsepower and 275s all around would be less expensive, faster and easier to drive than if that same car was mini tubbed. If you do end up with stupid amounts of power the bigger tires will help put the power down much more smoothly, but you'll be trying to figure out how to keep the car from understeering.

Matt

[Dipped]

I totally agree with Chris.

[Sparks67]

I agree with Todd and Chris. My two cents: Unless you have 600-700 horsepower, from a handling perspective, you're not gaining anything by minitubbing it. I'd argue that a non minitubbed car with 400-500 horsepower and 275s all around would be less expensive, faster and easier to drive than if that same car was mini tubbed. If you do end up with stupid amounts of power the bigger tires will help put the power down much more smoothly, but you'll be trying to figure out how to keep the car from understeering.

Matt

According to John Lingenfelter's book " Modifying small-block chevy engines: High performance". Torque is what accelerates the car, and in fact horsepower is merely is torque over time (rpm)."

The original poster never mentioned the his engine, but it was only a cost issue. If you car is ripped apart, then now is the time to make the decision whether you want to mini-tub or not. I have actually done the work, so this is the best time to make decision on the car. Not later! I personally have 800ft/lbs of torque, but again that is what I wanted in my 67 RS camaro.

The original poster has a 68 Camaro, well, he is limited on the tire size in the front. The DSE subframe won't fit a 275 without modifications to the front fender and front wheel housing. Stock subframe will only allow a 255 in front. Penny had modified front wheel housings. DSE subframe was designed around a 1969 Camaro, so it can fit a 275 in front. Actually, my 67 Camaro has the DSE subframe and is getting modified now for 275's in front at Sled Alley. I have 255's right now.

Jeff

[Matt@BOS]

ADiCarlo, since my tech advice is apparently suspect at best, I'll approach this question from a different stand point. Are you a dollars and cents person, who enjoys the process of building, driving, selling and buying. Some people are really into the process of buying and selling hot rods, etc. and others are more interested in tuning, tweaking, driving and creating things. There is no right or wrong way to go about it, and most people fit somewhere between those two types of car guys. I get the feeling that people who obsess over little details and get really into the look, stance and types of components on their cars are definitely more creative than bottom line, and if that is how you are, I bet you'll end up mini tubbing it.

However, if you don't quite see a Camaro with big rear tires and say, "I need to have that," and you would rather spend less money, have just as much fun driving the car, and probably sell your car quicker when it is time to move on to the next project, you might want to stay away from mini tubbing it. The only reason I say it would be easier to sell the car faster would be because the car would probably be worth less money. And less expensive cars generally have a broader market of buyers. Mini tubbed cars are usually projects that have snow balled where owners have caught a case of the "while I'm at its." Who knows if it actually increases the resale value compared to the increased build cost.

Matt

[Ns RS]

Funny that my gateway drug to this hobby started with some tubs which led to new wheels & tires resulting in Quadra link then subframe connectors and then might as well tie everything together with complete sub frame resulting in new brakes & rear end to fit the tubs and since the upgrades improved handling might as well get some new seats and belts with it. That was stage I.

Parts and labor went beyond the original budget for mini tubbing per usual with this hobby. I plan on keeping the car and had the means to get stage I done so no problems there.

Scope creep oh hell yes. Regrets no. If you end up moving from one project to the next minitubbing wont hurt resale IMO unless you proceed down the slippery slope of actually utilizing the tubs with 335s and going full PT - which may result in dimished financial returns.

Tub it, run it and enjoy it. If you plan on keeping the car then save WHILE DRIVING IT and then throw the dse book at it if so desired.

[Roe]

Did you end up mini tubbing your car?

[Hatcher1986]

i have a couple friends who used the DSE kits and liked them!

[ADiCarlo]

First off I want to thank everyone for taking the time to provide detailed responses and personal insight. I've been part of many different car scenes and forums and have never seen this level of true advice from fellow members.

After reading all your responses I feel it's best to answer a couple key questions:

1. What's your motor set up and will you actually be pushing enough horsepower for such a big tire?

I've already purchased and will be modifying a hybrid LQ9 6.0 longblock with LS3 heads. I like the idea of a N/A motor but have been contemplating adding some boost just to put that iron block to work. Ultimately my goal is around 600 and the motors current set up is pushing 530 last time it was dyno'd.

2. Am I dollar and cents guy or do I just love the idea of build awesome cars?

I would say I'm for building an awesome tuned and tweaked car but there's one problem - i'm under 30, and while having a ton of cars is awesome I still have to think about other responsibilities - like buying a house, etc. So I budget every build I do so in the event that something does happen i'm not out tons of a money. When everything's said and done and life's perfect then screw it tub it, stroke it, and tweak it to hell who cares!

3. So did I tub it?

Not yet but i'm going to! The car I bought was actually in the process of being turned into a drag car and I saved it from disaster. But some of the damage was already done so a fresh custom firewall tough enough for road race has been welded in with willwood drop pedals. Also the rear package tray was cut out so a mini tub isn't that crazy seeing I have to fix the rear anyways.

Right now the car has been stripped to the shell, media blasted and is about start phase II which is the rear - ETA end of November. I'll start a build thread once I get the car back and make progress on putting it together.

What rear-end set up?

After speaking with a bunch of people the last decision I made was to go with Chassisworks. This is due to the tune-ability of the rear suspension in regards to the 4 link position and the 16+ dampening settings. I've driven enough cars on aftermarket suspension both good a ****ty to know that having that customization is important especially when you like to drive the car regularly.

Also I've never been a fan of tucking my wheels down into the rim and i feel it just doesn't make sense when it comes to performance driving.

The rear end will be a custom 9 inch with a true trac 31 spline that I've already purchased and for wheels I been thinking about going with the below as they were highly recommended when i used to work with BMW's (I know there are mixed reviews about BMW pattern wheels on Chevy but for a wheel that is tough, designed and tested to handle BMW racing, and priced well it's hard to beat):

They largest they come in is 11":
http://www.apexraceparts.com/EC-7-18x11-Wheel--Profile-3_p_168.html

Ok enough of my book for now. Hit me with any questions you have.

[Windsor GTO]

I have a guy here in Houston that does them for $1700 plus materials. He makes the tubs not buy a kit and its cheaper. He has been doing Chassis building/tuning for 30 years.