Am I out of line??

[DOOM]

I'm about to pull the trigger on my engine for the Camaro. It's going to be a $40,000,00 +++++++ deal. I have been talking to my lawyer who is my neighbor and friend for 15 years and had him write me up a contract. Basically stating I will get what I paid for in a timely manner. I have passed up on two builders who have been evasive on completion time not answering the question, ''How long will it take to get my engine''. I completely understand these things take time don't get me wrong. But after my AP ordeal I'm not going to play the I said we said BS!! I want it to be very clear in writing what is expected from both parties. I also want to put the money in some type of account showing the money is there and I can release it as needed. My lawyer said that can be done with no problem. Do you guys think this is to extreme??? Am I out of line?? I keep reading all the horror stories about guys getting taken for thousands of dollars. Its hard to trust anyone when it comes to this ''hobby'' anymore I don't care who it is. I would like to here what you guys think..

[ccracin]

This sounds like an excellent idea to me Mario. In all seriousness this kind of thing is done in a lot of areas of business. Most notably for most is when you have a home built. This is how the banks handle paying the contractor. A contract is setup, progress inspections are done and money "draws" are issued based on the actual progress. To me this protects both parties. The vendor knows you have the funds and the customer has some level of comfort they will get what they want. If a vendor is unwilling to enter in to this agreement, then you have to ask why. This may sound odd, but make sure you spell out the consequences to either of you not living up to your ends of the agreement. I have friend right now that had a contract drawn up that said what each agreed to, but had no consequences if it didn't happen. At that point it means nothing. In the industry I work in, it is not uncommon to have an incentive adder too. If the vendor delivers on time, you pay the agreed amount. If they deliver early give them a 2-5% bonus. If they are late then they loose some percentage. If it goes too long, you have the right to cancel the deal. I really think you are on the right track and that if this was done more, people would be happier and more of the bad vendors would go away. Keep us posted on how you go forward.

By the way, you should talk to Casey Wegner at Wegner Automotive. They are first class and deliver on what they say. They actually had to wait for us and had no issue with that. We gave them a down payment and they told us call when your ready and we'll get it done. They did just that! :thumbsup:

[Shmoov69]

As far as I'm concerned, if the builder has a problem with it, then that is NOT who I'd go with. $40k may be beans to some people, but to most it's a freakin ton of money!! Heck,in my field we might get down money most if the time but until my project is done, I don't get the remainder of the money.

I remember the line in Three Amigos, "No dough..... No show!":G-Dub:

[carbuff]

I don't think you are out of line at all. And as someone who has been similarly affected in past dealings, I don't blame you in the least for trying to do this.

That said, I will be very interested to hear the responses you receive as you approach vendors with this proposal. I expect you are going to get a lot of blank stares / confused voices / etc, and likely flat out refusals. Not that you should, what you are asking for is completely reasonable. But most small businesses of the type who are in the car hobby aren't likely to have on-staff counsel, or even a relationship with someone who can be counsel for them. And as such, I expect most of them won't even consider signing an agreement like you are proposing.

I hope our hobby hasn't truly gotten to a point where this type of step is actually necessary... :(

[fleetus macmullitz]

I'm about to pull the trigger on my engine for the Camaro. It's going to be a $40,000,00 +++++++ deal. I have been talking to my lawyer who is my neighbor and friend for 15 years and had him write me up a contract. Basically stating I will get what I paid for in a timely manner. I have passed up on two builders who have been evasive on completion time not answering the question, ''How long will it take to get my engine''. I completely understand these things take time don't get me wrong. But after my AP ordeal I'm not going to play the I said we said BS!! I want it to be very clear in writing what is expected from both parties. I also want to put the money in some type of account showing the money is there and I can release it as needed. My lawyer said that can be done with no problem. Do you guys think this is to extreme??? Am I out of line?? I keep reading all the horror stories about guys getting taken for thousands of dollars. Its hard to trust anyone when it comes to this ''hobby'' anymore I don't care who it is. I would like to here what you guys think..

Dude, you are so whacked.



:peepwall:


:lol:

[Ron in SoCal]

The only thing you're out of line on is spending 40 large on a motor... :lol:

Seriously Mario, you make a few good points. Today's economy has seen a huge erosion in vendor/customer relationships and it's the customer who usually pays. Today's mantra is trust no one and the bigger the deal, the more protections that are built into the agreement.

Having said that, you cannot universally translate transactional Ts & Cs from one industry to the next. It may work in some instances and not in others. A great example - all respect Chad - is dis-incentives. In my business we will not construct nor agree to any contract that gives the customer a right not to pay us. It's hard enough to get our customers to honor our invoices in a timely manner even when all goes perfect. We deal in IP though, not hard goods.

Most custom motor builders are small businesses. They do not have this level of product nor bulk inventory sitting on the shelf waiting for you to come along, so they'll want to be reimbursed for the parts invested. They aren't banks nor made of cash so that would be a reasonable request of them. Then there's the time involved to produce your motor so it will live. That takes care and talent. Some may agree to this payment schedule, some may not. He has to put food on the table as well.

Do you lose out on having your motor built by 'THE GUY' because he won't take your payment terms?

I've had great experiences with custom motors being built in terms of final product. Never was one (out of four) ever delivered on time. What happens if under your agreement, you release progress payments and then the build stalls? He's got the parts $$$ (1/2 or more of the total?) and the balance is sitting in an account waiting for him to finish, which he doesn't do as agreed and your frustration level rises. What if the parts suppliers don't deliver those custom parts (pistons - happens all the time!)? Is that his issue? Using another example we see here all the time - what happens when the parts are stalled, you're not paying the bulk until he finishes and another consistent paying job walks in just like the body shop industry (not you Mario, but you know what I mean). Lots to think about.

In your shoes, I'd pick the builder carefully (not Beck or Nelson) and present the idea of an agreement. See how it goes over and how you two can come to terms that each party can live with. Don't make it so restrictive that if some thing comes up the builder decides not to complete or work on it in a timely manner. Lastly, be prepared for delays. Hate to say it, but it is reality in the custom motor game at the level you're playing at.

[Vegas69]

It's so out of the ordinary and uncustomary that you will likely see continuing opposition. Personally, I'd pick somebody within reasonable driving distance, own most of the parts initially, and then fund it in increments as progress and labor are tendered. Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

When Pettis Performance built my engine it had an expected finish date, horsepower and torque slot, and listed every single cost and part. I funded it three times I believe. He did finish it on time.

You're making that car way to expensive and nice to drive. That's my opinion. :mock:

[Sparks67]

Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait, because all manufacturers have adopted Just-in-time manufacturing methods. The supplier doesn't have the items in stock, so it has to be built. My Harrop TVS 2300 supercharger only took 3 weeks to acquire, but custom pistons and custom rods took months. I have talked to other custom engine builders, and they all seem to have the same problem with acquiring custom pistons. Also, be careful on what you are buying, because now only few companies are building crankshafts & rods in the USA. :flag2: Majority of the parts now are coming from overseas.

own most of the parts initially, and then fund it in increments as progress and labor are tendered. Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

Actually, it is rare to find a builder to use your own parts anymore. My local engine builder will do it, but he will recommend to you better quality parts. So, if you have a goal of 1000 HP, then you need parts that will survive in that engine. I talked to Brian Thompson on this and he only recommends USA made products. He has seen so many China crankshafts break, and it increases the costs of the engine, when you cut corners on parts.


Jeff

[INTMD8]

Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait


This^^

I don't think you're being unreasonable if all of the parts are available.

We are way behind schedule on a job at the shop I work at but if it takes months for a block or something else to be available there's not much you can do to get it done faster.

[Matt@BOS]

I tend to agree with others that a contract may scare off a good engine builder. It might send up a red flag to the builder that you could be a one of those "difficult" customers, and passing on the job would just be simpler for them. I am also of the opinion though that if you feel you need a contract, you should probably find someone that you are comfortable enough with to not deem a contract is a necessary. That is just the way I prefer to work though. I like to get word of mouth referrals and visit a shop at least twice before I commit to dropping a big chunk of change. If you schedule an appointment, get the tour, then drop in a month later to see how all of the various projects have progressed, then you start to get a sense of the pacing and flow of the work going through the shop.

Just my two cents. I've had a few difficult deals myself and completely understand where you're coming from with American Powertrain. I've never spent 40k with an engine builder though, but if I were I would want to make damn sure I really knew who I was working with, and if a contract was no big deal for them, it probably wouldn't hurt either.

[ccracin]

Having said that, you cannot universally translate transactional Ts & Cs from one industry to the next. It may work in some instances and not in others. A great example - all respect Chad - is dis-incentives. In my business we will not construct nor agree to any contract that gives the customer a right not to pay us. It's hard enough to get our customers to honor our invoices in a timely manner even when all goes perfect. We deal in IP though, not hard goods.

Most custom motor builders are small businesses. They do not have this level of product nor bulk inventory sitting on the shelf waiting for you to come along, so they'll want to be reimbursed for the parts invested. They aren't banks nor made of cash so that would be a reasonable request of them. Then there's the time involved to produce your motor so it will live. That takes care and talent. Some may agree to this payment schedule, some may not. He has to put food on the table as well.


I don't disagree with you Ron for the most part. I do agree that my original comment about backing out on the order after a lot of time and money expended by the vendor is pushing it and unreasonable, I still think there needs to be consequences to not living up to commitments. This whole game that "I'm THE GUY for this so you will get what I give you, when I give it to you" that runs rampant in this hobby has got to stop somehow.

If these engine guys are as good as they say they are, then they know how long it takes to provide the level of service they commit too. As long as the payment schedule is fair and based on known lead times, I don't think it is unreasonable to request.


Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait, because all manufacturers have adopted Just-in-time manufacturing methods. The supplier doesn't have the items in stock, so it has to be built. My Harrop TVS 2300 supercharger only took 3 weeks to acquire, but custom pistons and custom rods took months. I have talked to other custom engine builders, and they all seem to have the same problem with acquiring custom pistons. Also, be careful on what you are buying, because now only few companies are building crankshafts & rods in the USA. :flag2: Majority of the parts now are coming from overseas.
Jeff

Jeff, while I understand where you are coming from, most of what you point out is usually propaganda businesses that can't meet their commitments use to make excuses. It is a fact that inventory costs money and most small businesses can not afford to have a lot of money tied up in stock. However, it still comes down to managing a project correctly and quoting based on facts. If a particular engine combination uses custom parts than the builder should get firm delivery quotes for those parts before the customer is quoted cost and delivery. These delivery quotes can then be retained so that when an order is placed if there are delays this information can be presented to the customer to help them understand what the delays are. Unfortunately it happens all too often that some folks that are experts at some service or skill are not always capable business people or project managers.

The whole "just in time" manufacturing thing also raises my blood pressure. It has become a buzz word for "It's not our fault". Most small businesses that say they have adopted this process have no idea what it is all about. Not having stock on the shelves and ordering every part needed for each project is NOT "just in time" manufacturing. This process is built on statistical data for each component and supplier so that a forecast schedule can be developed so that orders are placed automatically. These orders are placed so that the parts arrive in the facility "just in time" for the process to continue WITHOUT delays. In most cases this type of process is not suited to custom one off projects that require different components every time. It is meant to streamline a high volume production line.


I tend to agree with others that a contract may scare off a good engine builder. It might send up a red flag to the builder that you could be a one of those "difficult" customers, and passing on the job would just be simpler for them. I am also of the opinion though that if you feel you need a contract, you should probably find someone that you are comfortable enough with to not deem a contract is a necessary. That is just the way I prefer to work though. I like to get word of mouth referrals and visit a shop at least twice before I commit to dropping a big chunk of change. If you schedule an appointment, get the tour, then drop in a month later to see how all of the various projects have progressed, then you start to get a sense of the pacing and flow of the work going through the shop.


If a mutually beneficial contract scares a vendor off, i would say so be it. It really scares me that when all you expect is to get what you asked for, when you asked for it, for what you agreed to pay for it, you are "One of those DIFFICULT customers". I much prefer to work the way you stated Matt. There was a time when this was the only way to do business. But, unfortunately it is getting to be all to common, especially in this hobby that vendors AND customers are becoming untrustworthy. I think word of mouth is critical in making decisions like these, but not full proof. I speak from experience. We almost spent 15K on an engine through Prodigy based on all kinds of recommendations. But, I guess we were lucky in that he neglected to return many phone calls which gave us a bad feeling. In the end we passed on that deal and feel very lucky that we did. But, up to that point I had not heard one bad thing about them. 6 months later the you know what hit the fan. If we would have moved forward, this would have been an excellent situation for a contract.

I work for an OEM manufacturer of heavy industrial equipment. We are somewhat unique in that we don't do any manufacturing in house. We contract manufacture 100% of our goods. Our business does 15-17 million a year with projects that range from 2000 to 1.5 million. We have to make commitments to our customers for every one of them and we are completely dependent on our vendors to live up to these commitments. We have a 97% on time rate and when we are going to be late we are in constant communication with our customers to try and help reduce the impact on them. And don't think we are a huge company with unlimited resources. We do all this with 14 people. Before we quote a customer, we know what items are going to be long lead items and we get firm commitments from the vendors for those parts. If on the odd occasion we cannot get a firm commitment, this is presented to the customer up front so that they can decide if this level of uncertainty is acceptable. There is no reason that any engine builder could not do the same thing.

It is time for things to start changing and people stop accepting poor service as "it's just how it is in this hobby". Contracts may not be the answer, but someone has to try something or nothing will change.

OK, I've got my nomex on let the flaming and flogging begin! :getout:

:underchair:

[ccracin]

One last thing to add. While we didn't have contract per say with Wegner, we did have an agreed on set of components and output requirements in writing before the order was placed. They had no issue with doing that and were very easy to work with. I will say too, they even agreed to delay the build until we were ready in exchange for a down payment. While what we got isn't exotic, it was still more than just a rebuild. So we got what we wanted, when we wanted it, for what we were quoted. In exchange they got prompt payment for their services. Win win. If everyone did it this way, this thread wouldn't exist. :beathorse

[Matt@BOS]

Maybe I should clarify a little and add that I wouldn't approach a shop waving legal documents around before getting down to talk final numbers. Even then I myself would shy away from accepting such work unless I had all of the pieces already in my possession, and I definitely wouldn't let someone bring me a pile of parts because you never know if everything is going to work if different parties sourced different parts and so forth.

[ccracin]

Maybe I should clarify a little and add that I wouldn't approach a shop waving legal documents around before getting down to talk final numbers. Even then I myself would shy away from accepting such work unless I had all of the pieces already in my possession, and I definitely wouldn't let someone bring me a pile of parts because you never know if everything is going to work if different parties sourced different parts and so forth.

Good advice! I just got a Hilarious visual! Tact is always good! :lol:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Always good to have a capable attorney as an ally.


VEWODYDjfOU

[ironworks]

I think it is about the relationship and open communication. The vibe I get is Troy is your man, you seem really happy with him. What your trying to do is not difficult per say. Your looking for a turbo big block engine for a street driven Camaro. Your not looking to qualify #1 at a heads up drag race event. So I think that should help you narrow your selection down. If I was in your shoes I would talk to guys who have done what you want in your area. Mike Norris in Indy would be a good contact. He knows what he is doing and lives in Indy which is the Motorsports central for the north. My guess is Troy will be building the headers and exhaust for your narrowed subframe. So you have the fab work covered. More then likely you will buy a manifold. So find a semi local guy who has good recommendations. Ask for customer references, I want new customers to talk to the usual guys, helps the new guy feel comfortable and helps me sort out the losers.

I think your contract will scare off a builder who is having to rely on others to supply parts. I would not sign that contract until ALL parts where in my shop. Let the builder buy all the parts, he needs to make his margin. Go visit him regularly and check to see if he is doing what he says and buy him lunch and let him buy you lunch.

Really at the end of the day whatever you want to build cannot be that tough, my buddy just destroked a 726 nos engine to a 588 on methanol that will spin to 10k rpms. They think it makes 3500hp with twin 94's. Something like that takes a while and the right guy.

[waynieZ]

How about a stipulation, if the hold up is another vender the extra time could be added to the end if its needed with no consequence to the builder. You could use the invoice dates to monitor time tables.

[Dayton]

When you borrow money to build a house, the contractor usually gets 7 or 8 draws.
I vote for something like this.

[Flash68]

Though I understand where you are coming from, I would not take you on as my customer taking that approach.

A former business partner and still good friend of mine said something that made and makes a lot of sense to me still... it went something like this:

You can't let lawyers get too involved in business transactions all the time or no transaction would ever get done.

Like others have said..... location, specific & relevant experience, and communication should be paramount and foremost and price should be last. Because at $40k or whatever on a motor, you should not be price shopping and it doesn't sound like you.

Good luck.

[JMitch19]

This^^

I don't think you're being unreasonable if all of the parts are available.

We are way behind schedule on a job at the shop I work at but if it takes months for a block or something else to be available there's not much you can do to get it done faster.


I'm sorry if I have my facts incorrect, but I believe INTMD8 is Jim from Speed Inc. I think he has been very modest in his approach to this forum. I've been an Ls1tech member from almost day one, and I don't think I've seen him mention once who he is or where he works on this board. Speed Inc. has been one of the biggest speed shops in the LS world from day one and Jim is one of the most well respected tuners in the country.

Speed Inc. is right in your back yard. I don't believe they have an in house engine program(could be wrong), but I bet they can facilitate a deal between you and their bulder. No matter what you do for an engine you should take advantage of a resource like Jim being near by when it comes time to tune that new mill.

[hulsund]

I was think to buy parts from Gearhead Performance before i see what happen with Hellrace on this forum . So for me its easy Iwill try to use firm like summit,jegs gm . Thats is reason when people/ firm are unseriosly like Gearhead Performance evryone loose at the end.
So i understand Doom very well and think thats the way too go.

[4mul8ion]

Interesting topic. My 2 cents.

I didn't see it in your original post but I assume you'd have a mutually agreed to technical requirements document as part of the contract. Others already mentioned the parts delivery portion but I'm referring to hard technical targets to what the engine must do. Not how it is done. I don't think an engine builder would have an issue with a contract so long as your engine requirements are clearly defined up front, is measureable and is something that is within their control to meet.

For example - making up numbers here - the engine must make a minimum of 900 horsepower and 900 ft pounds of torque, redline at 8000 rpm, etc. A requirement like it must be an LS based engine or it must be fuel injected, it must be turbo charged, etc would have to be negotiable as it straddles what and how to meet your requirements.

Not something like: the engine must be around 1000 hp, get 1:00 lap times at <insert track here>, do a standing 1/4 mile in 10 seconds, get 25 mpg, be reliable, have a lopey idle.

How firm are your plans?

[4mul8ion]

Something else I thought of regarding the original question of whether or not a contract is out of line is deals with which state rules apply to the enforcement of the contract if there is a dispute. Your lawyer neighbor will presumably seek to have the rules of Illinois apply to the contract which, to an out of state engine builder, may or may not be out of line.

Kevin

[cluxford]

It's interesting that in most consumer purchases there is rarely a contract agreed by the parties before a sale. Mostly as the item being bought is readily available (well not always) but the buyer is mostly buying something that is produced in reasonable numbers.

In business to business transactions there is always a contract. Mostly as what is being bought is custom or in volume and a long term contract.

I've built a pretty high end car here in Oz that took over 3 years, I understand the waiting
I'm alos a CEO of a $200M company and sign / review contracts every single day f the week

To me I can see bot sides of the argument of contract vs no contract.

It comes down to what you are comfortable with. $40K is a lot of money. A contract would better serve in this case more for quality of product rather than timelines, although obviously timelines can be built into it with acceptable leeway for both parties. But a contract is to protect your investment and get what you paid for.

I think having a contract in place is a good thing. If you were a business buying a number of engines custom built you would have a contract, so what's the difference for 1 engine ?

As said i can see both sides, ie trust and communication overcome need for contract, and I agree. But in my experience a contract is ONLY ever needed when it all turns to sh#%t, if it goes o plan the contract will gather dust in the bottom drawer. so any builder that refuses a contract is therefore somewhat expecting it to go bad....

Of course assumption here being that you will allow reasonable timelines under the expectation of delays due to the uniqueness of your engine...within reason of course

[tones2SS]

Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

I agree with Todd on the above.
I don't think you're out of line at all Mario. Heck, it is better to protect yourself than get taken over the barrel, so to speak.

[Todd in vancouver]

It really is sad that it has come to this when you think about it. I have to admit that reading about other fellow hobby builders who have been fleeced but unsavoury shops/suppliers has made all of us a bit gun shy of getting taken. After reading so many guys screaming for help on different forums I've changed my buying habits. Living in Canada we are use to having to pay more for parts and when I see some of the deals south of the boarder I feel like jumping on them but at the end of the day I can't afford to lose my money to a supplier who takes my money and runs.

Now a days I deal locally or if I'm ordering something I tend to stick to bigger companies, like TCI or Detroit Speed direct. It's been said multiple times and I have to agree go with someone local and where you are able to follow up personally and ensure you are getting what you pay for. I don't think it's a bad idea having a schedule laid out on when you get your product and payments at certain completion points so that you feel secure and are able to see your product with your own eyes at those completion points.

Now I've got to go read your thread to see what a $40K engine is goin in. :confused59: :confused59:

[Shmoov69]

One thing about the references is that any idiot has some good references. That's the bad part for sure. Like I said earlier and has been echoed, if the builder has a problem, then he's not the guy I'd go with. Unless you have some crazy contract.

But check as many references as you can anyway!! LOL!!:D

[DOOM]

Thanks for the input guys. A lot of good points here. I just think the stories of guys getting taken is getting a lot worse these days .The biggest reason for this really isn't about time I am fully aware that these guys are depending on vendors to get them parts. You can't put a motor together without parts! I have the same issues in my business. When I'm in that situation I simply notify my customer of the delay and why and provide them with the number of my vendor if they wish to verify. COMMUNICATION is a key part in this matter. I do however disagree with the fact it will turn off potential builders. I did contact two that had no problem with doing a contract . I made it clear why I was doing it and they fully understood where I was coming from. The vendor supply did come up but everything else was not a problem. When it comes to referrals I'm on the fence with that . I was referred to AP by several people and we all know what happen there! So it really comes down to getting ripped off of my hard earned money. I really don't think asking a vendor to do this is a lot to ask. I just want to make sure my money isn't funding someone else's project ! I can go on and on with this but I think its time to make some changes and make vendors more responsible on how they handle our money.

[Vegas69]

Is the builder best suited for the job willing to sign your contract?

Would you take a customers custom contract at your business?

My opinion is that if you go to court, with or without a contract, you lose...(Financially) A $40,000 investment isn't large when you get attornies involved.

[ccracin]

A contract is like a lock on the door, just trying help keep honest people honest!

Never the less we all still have locks on our doors.

[clill]

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.

[ccracin]

Something that may be getting lost here is that the "contract" doesn't need to be some 32 page legaleze document a lawyer draws up. It can be as simple as a Purchase Order document stating what you are ordering and a time for it's delivery. If the builder will acknowledge that P.O and take the order, that is now a contract. Simple.

[DOOM]

Is the builder best suited for the job willing to sign your contract?

Would you take a customers custom contract at your business?

My opinion is that if you go to court, with or without a contract, you lose...(Financially) A $40,000 investment isn't large when you get attornies involved.
Todd you no I always value your opinion ! To answer your question about a contract for my business its simple for me. I DON'T EXCEPT ANY MONEY UNTIL THE JOB IS DONE!!! That's my contract the money is my motivator!!! The car has to go or I don't get paid. I don't use other peoples money to fix other peoples cars that way! My father in law ran his shop like that for 65 years and I continue to run mine the same way..
A contract is like a lock on the door, just trying help keep honest people honest!

Never the less we all still have locks on our doors.

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.
Charley you do bring up a valid point.
Something that may be getting lost here is that the "contract" doesn't need to be some 32 page legaleze document a lawyer draws up. It can be as simple as a Purchase Order document stating what you are ordering and a time for it's delivery. If the builder will acknowledge that P.O and take the order, that is now a contract. Simple.

Chad I think that's a great way of putting it ''CONTRACT'' may be the wrong word here . I would say more of an'' agreement''.

[71RS/SS396]

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.

I 100% agree with this. I work with one of the premier LS builders in the world and I would tell you thanks but we don't need your business if you wanted a contract demanding delivery dates, we would certainly give you our best guess on completion but no guarantees. There are too many things out of your control with the delivery of parts when you get into a custom built engine, some of the parts can't even be ordered until the engine is partially assembled and as far as buying your own parts as Todd suggested, don't expect any durability guarantees if you start specing out the parts that's what you're paying the builder to know.

[Flash68]

BTW what type of motor is this going to be? I am assuming Twin Turbo something? LSX or BBC or ?

[uxojerry]

Most reputable engine builders are going to have a progress/payment schedule and require some money upfront to get started. I assume your looking for a big cube twin turbo LSX motor. I am in the market for the same, but am trying to stay around $30k or so.


Contact stevemorrisengines.com as they can give you a detailed quote for an entire package. I am leaning towards their iron block lsx 427 with twin 67s. It is hard to find a complete TT LSX motor package from one vendor, and this one looks pretty good.

Good Luck!

[DOOM]

Big block 540 TT. Steve Morrison has quoted me $51.000.00 it looks like he's going to be the guy I'm going to go with at this point. Very detailed on what I'm going to get and when!:)

[ccracin]

Big block 540 TT. Steve Morrison has quoted me $51.000.00 it looks like he's going to be the guy I'm going to go with at this point. Very detailed on what I'm going to get and when!:)

51k! :confused59: :G-Dub: :headspin: :disgusted:

Can I go for a ride? :Tomcat:

[DOOM]

I 100% agree with this. I work with one of the premier LS builders in the world and I would tell you thanks but we don't need your business if you wanted a contract demanding delivery dates, we would certainly give you our best guess on completion but no guarantees. There are too many things out of your control with the delivery of parts when you get into a custom built engine, some of the parts can't even be ordered until the engine is partially assembled and as far as buying your own parts as Todd suggested, don't expect any durability guarantees if you start specing out the parts that's what you're paying the builder to know.

Wow bold statement!!! So your telling me to go pound sand if I asked for agreement on when I was going to get my engine?? There was a time I thought in my business I was the best collision shop around until I had no cars coming through my doors and I was humbled real fast my friend. Trust me one day you'll think twice about that statement.

[DOOM]

51k! :confused59: :G-Dub: :headspin: :disgusted:

Can I go for a ride? :Tomcat:

Chad I'll come get ya!

[fleetus macmullitz]

Congrats Mario...happy for ya!

DOOM now in BEASTMODE.

:underchair:

[Vegas69]

I received an "agreement" when I built my engine that was on their document. A contract constructed by an attorney is a whole different deal.

You have their car and I'm sure they sign some paperwork. You do business with integrity. I think it's important to remember that we aren't the only good guys on the planet. There are plenty left with integrity.

My thought was to buy the part from the builder up front and make sure they were delivered. In reflection, I'd rather pay for the parts and labor in increments. I agree, I wouldn't expect a builder to back an engine where I brought in parts and forced them on him.

I agree Mario, when you forget what got you there, that spells trouble.

Wow Mario, that is going to be some sick power..... Update your thread with the specs...

[Flash68]

Big block 540 TT. Steve Morrison has quoted me $51.000.00

:eek:

That just made me feel so much better about the money I have dumped into my car. Thank you for that!

[ccracin]

Chad I'll come get ya!

I'm holding yah to that one! Dinner is on me!:happy23:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.

Or he's a great engine builder and says to himself 'Well, this is a little different. But if the terms are reasonable this can still be a win-win situation'. :)

[GregWeld]

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.




100% agree with Charley on this one.... Anyone that is busy -- doesn't need your business.

It's not enough money to bother with a contract in the first place. I know it sounds like a lot - but if you want to litigate - that's a lawyers fee for just reading the contract and writing a letter....

Do the right thing -- find a REPUTABLE guy that understands your concerns -- and is willing to address them in a reasonable way. It might not be 100% of what you want - but building this stuff NEVER is on time -- and things always have a way of changing. So you've got to be somewhat flexible.

[snappytravis]

100% agree with Charley on this one.... Anyone that is busy -- doesn't need your business.

It's not enough money to bother with a contract in the first place. I know it sounds like a lot - but if you want to litigate - that's a lawyers fee for just reading the contract and writing a letter....

Do the right thing -- find a REPUTABLE guy that understands your concerns -- and is willing to address them in a reasonable way. It might not be 100% of what you want - but building this stuff NEVER is on time -- and things always have a way of changing. So you've got to be somewhat flexible.

I agree, I would take it offensive if I was approached with a contract, that you don't trust me first, I also feel your unsure to have to have a contract think it's just a bad deal and you should find someone your comfortable with. Like a prenup, I don't think she will hose me but just in case.

[badmatt]

Give Mike Moran a call.

[DOOM]

I received an "agreement" when I built my engine that was on their document. A contract constructed by an attorney is a whole different deal.

You have their car and I'm sure they sign some paperwork. You do business with integrity. I think it's important to remember that we aren't the only good guys on the planet. There are plenty left with integrity.

My thought was to buy the part from the builder up front and make sure they were delivered. In reflection, I'd rather pay for the parts and labor in increments. I agree, I wouldn't expect a builder to back an engine where I brought in parts and forced them on him.

I agree Mario, when you forget what got you there, that spells trouble.

Wow Mario, that is going to be some sick power..... Update your thread with the specs...
Again Todd well said!!!!
:eek:

That just made me feel so much better about the money I have dumped into my car. Thank you for that!
Glad I can help!!!!:lol:
100% agree with Charley on this one.... Anyone that is busy -- doesn't need your business.

It's not enough money to bother with a contract in the first place. I know it sounds like a lot - but if you want to litigate - that's a lawyers fee for just reading the contract and writing a letter....

Do the right thing -- find a REPUTABLE guy that understands your concerns -- and is willing to address them in a reasonable way. It might not be 100% of what you want - but building this stuff NEVER is on time -- and things always have a way of changing. So you've got to be somewhat flexible.
Greg as I stated before I'm fully aware not everything goes according to plan things do happen. These guys are depending on other people to make things happen I live it every day. My deal with AP was a joke ! They had $4000.00 dollars down payment of my money and knew full well they wouldn't have to give it back. There very well versed in the CC laws. I believe if my money was in some type of account waiting for them to collect when I received my trans I would of went through a lot less BS lies. I'll bet you they would of told me about the shut down to build transmissions for the OE'S had they not had my $4000.00 dollars! I think at the end of the day if the money is sitting waiting you'll get a lot more honesty! If I have a car waiting for a part that's holding me up from collecting XXX amount of dollars I'm calling all over the planet to find it so I can get paid! If I had that money up front I wouldn't sweat it as much my bills are paid.
Give Mike Moran a call. He was contacted

[Ummgawa]

Someone posted earlier about your contract possibly being an indicator of you being a "difficult" or "unreasonable" customer. Let me assure you: At 40 Large for a motor, you have purchased the right to be difficult and demanding. if that scares off an engine builder, consider it a gift.

[chr2002ca]

For 40K(or now 51K) I'd sure as hell want some sort of signed agreement. That's a large chunk of change to a lot of us, and sometimes it's not just about the money, it's about the schedule. I don't blame you one bit Mario, especially after what you've been through already. Seems like there are an increasing number of businesses out there nowadays that will make inaccurate claims about their ability to do the job at certain price/time in order to get your project and money in their doors and then they just do whatever they want after they get you on board. I think a reasonable agreement with some penalties/bonuses would force some better initial accuracy and accountability, especially in a situation with that sum of money. Building these cars is difficult enough without having to deal with those VERY frustrating situations where someone takes your money and then just does whatever the hell they want and when they want. Some of us aren't rich enough or have the flexibility to easily deal with that.

Fortunately for me, my shortblock builder Jason Pettis delivered nearly on time and at the exact price quoted, and he was extremely detailed about the work and parts that would be involved. He allowed me to supply my own parts, although I told him that if any of the parts were not to his satisfaction, he could swap them out and I'd just return mine, which we did on a few. Not at all to the scale of your build, but still a pleasant experience for me and I'd definitely recommend him.

Good luck with your sick engine build and please keep us updated. :thumbsup:

[DRJDVM's '69]

In other aspects of life...for example, building an addition on to your house for $40k....would you hire someone without a pretty clear set of expectations, and details that was put in writing?...

Most people would say...hell no...so why is that different in the car world?

There is a big difference in having a plan in writing, with expectations, time frame, payment schedule etc vs a legal binding contract.

I think having it all written out makes both parties clear on what the plan is....it serves as a reference if there are any "issues" that come up when one party refutes what the agreed plan was....vs it all being remembered from some phone conversation and people not remembering the same thing...

if I was dropping $40-50k on a motor, I would want a written plan...not a 20 page legal contract....

[RussMurco]

I'm about to pull the trigger on my engine for the Camaro. It's going to be a $40,000,00 +++++++ deal...

NASA has been known to be slow about things sometimes!

Seriously though, what the heck kind of engine cost $40k?! Am I just to used to building my own engines for $12k??

[Flash68]

A key word here that I have not seen used is "customary'. It is important.

Ned brought up a GC doing a remodel for $40k. Yes you are going to get a contract with that (some better and tighter than others of course).

But what individual motor customer ever gets a contract? I contend that it is CUSTOMARY that you do not get contracts when purchasing motors, but you do when purchasing remodels. It isn't about the money here, it is about what is customary.

And if a $40k motor earns you the right to one, why doesn't a $12k or 15k motor get one? Money should not be the deciding factor on who gets and who doesn't get a contract.

[fleetus macmullitz]

We, the Pro-touring'ites, must lead this hobby out of the dark ages, legally speaking. I sense this is our burden...

I've got a name that fits.

'LegalZoom.'

Could be gold!

[DRJDVM's '69]

Things become "customary" because things evolve due to necessity..... Even big deals and big business used to be sealed with a handshake and your "word".... That used to be customary for everything

The bigger the $$ involved, the more both parties need to protect themselves from any "issues"

No doubt you will get pushback and defensive attitudes.... It's not the "norm"...

It's a double sided issue...... If you are truly a trustworthy company/business that stands by your word, then why not put it in writing.....but it's insulting to be asked... The customer doesn't trust you.... But if you got nothing to hide, then why not?.... If you can't trust my word, then screw you, take your business somewhere else....

But there are enough precedents out there by companies screwing over customers...... Any every one of them was trusted by the customer... With a handshake and their "word"

I personally wouldn't hand over $40k to anyone without some written plan.... Maybe not a full, legal contract, but not just a verbal conversation.... If nothing else, a written plan about paying in installments as progress is made

[Shmoov69]

Customary, Good point. Would said builder hire remodelers to renovate his shop without a contract or signed proposal or some sort of "binding document"? Especially if they didn't know them from Adam?? Even if they had a good reputation on doing a "good job"?? Quite possibly not.

And sorry Greg, but I'd say that to "most" of us on here (and in the real world), 40k is a large sum of cash for a portion of a toy. No disrespect meant, but seriously!!

[DOOM]

Customary, Good point. Would said builder hire remodelers to renovate his shop without a contract or signed proposal or some sort of "binding document"? Especially if they didn't know them from Adam?? Even if they had a good reputation on doing a "good job"?? Quite possibly not.

And sorry Greg, but I'd say that to "most" of us on here (and in the real world), 40k is a large sum of cash for a portion of a toy. No disrespect meant, but seriously!!

Jimmy I don't think Greg meant it that way.

[DOOM]

We had a former vendor on the board that has taken people for a lot of money . Some of what I've been reading is pretty scary . Guys have been taken for thousands of dollars and will never see that money again! For me I would of never believed it I never had a bad deal with this vendor ever. I have to tell you guys my car has been in the planning stages for over ten years. It sat in my storage lot for 6 years. I put money away every chance I had in my ''car fund'' so I could build this car the way I wanted. Trust me I'm not Charley or GW. I saved for over ten years to make this happen. I have been very lucky with most of my vendors up until this point. I could have been taken by this vendor just as easy as the rest of these guys he had almost $20,000,00 of my money at one time! We put our trust in these vendors and hand them over big money. But I have to say, seeing what's going on today with the world and the economy I'm trusting no one!!!! I could of been one of the guys taken buy this vendor very easily. I'm protecting myself from here on out. Let me tell you, any of these vendors can get into financial trouble at anytime and I'm not giving them my hard earned dollars so they can take it and bail them selves out! :soapbox:

[DOOM]

Okay one last thing and I'm done. One thing I learned early on is you will always have ups and downs in your business . The comment that gets my blood boiling is '' (INSERT HERE) we don't need your business" Well I learned you can't stay on the top forever and you WILL come down! So remember the ''difficult'' guy you told to take a hike you'll wish you had him! Ask me how I know this!!!:topic:

[RussMurco]

I can certainly understand your position and I would want to protect my hard-earned cash as well.
Personally, I would try to stay as local as possible so that I could stop by and check on progress from time to time. That would also give me a chance to watch for warning signs around the shop (supplies running out, fewer jobs coming in, less employees, phones not ringing, etc.). Communication, presence, and a written plan sound like the best way to protect yourself...

[clill]

I have no money...Pissed it all away on cars. Weld has all the money. Don't get lulled into a false sense of security because you get a builder to sign a contract. A bad guy will sign whatever you want and still steal your money. Then you can spend a fortune with attorneys chasing him and end up with nothing anyway because he has nothing. The bad guys just want your money and will deal with stalling and double talking you later.

[Streetking]

I have no money...Pissed it all away on cars. Weld has all the money. Don't get lulled into a false sense of security because you get a builder to sign a contract. A bad guy will sign whatever you want and still steal your money. Then you can spend a fortune with attorneys chasing him and end up with nothing anyway because he has nothing. The bad guys just want your money and will deal with stalling and double talking you later.

Well said..

[DOOM]

I have no money...Pissed it all away on cars. Weld has all the money. Don't get lulled into a false sense of security because you get a builder to sign a contract. A bad guy will sign whatever you want and still steal your money. Then you can spend a fortune with attorneys chasing him and end up with nothing anyway because he has nothing. The bad guys just want your money and will deal with stalling and double talking you later.

Come on Charley we know better! You still have that ''secret'' compartment ! The contract thing isn't likely going to happen for that reason alone. I am going to deal local so I can keep tabs on progress. I started talking to Steve Morris and it looks like he'll be the guy. His payment structure is actually quite good it works perfect for both parties. So will see.

[syborg tt]

By the way, you should talk to Casey Wegner at Wegner Automotive. They are first class and deliver on what they say. They actually had to wait for us and had no issue with that. We gave them a down payment and they told us call when your ready and we'll get it done. They did just that! :thumbsup:

I sent my motor and parts to Casey and 4 weeks later he called and said the motor was ready for $1,000.00 less then he quoted me. Trust me that doesn't happen "EVER".

Then when we looking for help I sent him and e-mail and within an hour I had a response with a part number and even a link to get the part.

Casey and the guys at Wegner are Number 1 in my book.

and good news for you Mario they are only about 2 hours from us.

[enzo]

I have no money...Pissed it all away on cars. Weld has all the money. Don't get lulled into a false sense of security because you get a builder to sign a contract. A bad guy will sign whatever you want and still steal your money. Then you can spend a fortune with attorneys chasing him and end up with nothing anyway because he has nothing. The bad guys just want your money and will deal with stalling and double talking you later.

The only time a contract is worth anything, is in a court of law. If you get there, you already lost.

I agree with local services - continuous personal communication always helps to ease the stress during large projects.

[Dayton]

I sent my motor and parts to Casey and 4 weeks later he called and said the motor was ready for $1,000.00 less then he quoted me.

Less? A vendor asked for less money than quoted? Surely this is a typo!
Or, maybe miracles do happen....just not to me.

[96z28ss]

$51K for an engine? Your crazy!!
Dude have you ever seen a twin turbo big block in a 69 camaro. It gets cramped in the engine compartment. Hey if you want a trailer queen, its your car. I think you should take half that and Get a MAST LSX with a supercharger on it. Then take the rest of the money and read the INVESTING 102 thread.

[waynieZ]

Good move dealing local, we both know how long distance deals can be. I hope it comes in on schedule so as not to hold you up.

[67ragtp]

Come on Charley we know better! You still have that ''secret'' compartment ! The contract thing isn't likely going to happen for that reason alone. I am going to deal local so I can keep tabs on progress. I started talking to Steve Morris and it looks like he'll be the guy. His payment structure is actually quite good it works perfect for both parties. So will see.

Hey Mario,

Steve is a great choice, this guy has a killer resume when it comes to building/machining boosted engines. What a nice guy and his family, had him over for christmas dinner, long story short his dad has been dating my sister for years and came out to jersey for the holidays. Extrmeley nice people, being a car guy I felt like I had engine building royality at my house. Good luck and Im looking forward to watching the progress.

Rich

[Shmoov69]

Jimmy I don't think Greg meant it that way.

I didn't think he meant it in a "pocket change to me" kind of way, but I know quite a few people personally that do have that attitude and it really "turns off" the average Joe and helps feed the class warfare mentality. And I'd hate for some on here to feel that way about him because Greg seems like the real deal (nice guy without "that" attitude) from what I see on here day in and day out.
Hopefully no disrespect taken cause none was intended. :topic:

Good call on the local guy!

[DOOM]

I didn't think he meant it in a "pocket change to me" kind of way, but I know quite a few people personally that do have that attitude and it really "turns off" the average Joe and helps feed the class warfare mentality. And I'd hate for some on here to feel that way about him because Greg seems like the real deal (nice guy without "that" attitude) from what I see on here day in and day out.
Hopefully no disrespect taken cause none was intended. :topic:

Good call on the local guy!

Greg Weld would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it! I have first hand knowledge of this . Not to long ago we had a situation with a member that wasn't happy with his car that was delivered and Greg offered pay for the re repair to make it right . And this was no small amount of money either let me tell ya! So for anyone new to this board Greg Weld is one of the most stand up guys you will ever want to meet you would be hard pressed to find a finer gentlman. My dad always said ''If someone has to tell you what they have they have nothing just watch out for the quit guy in the corner saying nothing'' ..:D :topic:

[71RS/SS396]

Wow bold statement!!! So your telling me to go pound sand if I asked for agreement on when I was going to get my engine?? There was a time I thought in my business I was the best collision shop around until I had no cars coming through my doors and I was humbled real fast my friend. Trust me one day you'll think twice about that statement.

Maybe so, but I've been taught some expensive lessons along the way, sometimes the price of admission isn't worth it. I didn't say you wouldn't get an estimated delivery date. I just wouldn't make any guarantees on dates there are too many outside vendors that have to be worked with that don't meet their commitments that we have no control over. I'll play devils advocate and have you look at it from my side, I have 2 half built engines sitting in the shop right now that have been there for 18 months because the guy ran out of money so I'm sitting on $50K worth of parts that are good for nothing but these 2 engines because everything is so specialized when you build an engine like you're talking about. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest I'm just trying to give you some perspective from the builders point of view, we get taken of advantage of as well. :cheers:

[Flash68]

I was going to bring that point up as well, Tim. How many half finished car projects are out there at various shops? We all know many I am sure...

No one seems to discuss businesses doing checks on their customers. Customers often seem to think businesses should fall over each other to take their hard earned money. Not so much. It's a 2 way street out there folks, especially when you start talking big dollars... :innocent:

No one is saying this applies to you Mario, but it is a very valid point in the context of this conversation.

[ccracin]

If you went back and looked, Mario said he would setup an account with the money in it so the builder would know he is getting the money. A good quote, then purchase order, and po acknowledgment is all that is needed to make a good deal that also happens to be a contract. As I said in previous posts, my company commits to delivery dates on million dollar equipment and we rely on vendors for everything. It is possible with the proper procedures in place for using the right vendor. The best engine builder ever may not always be a good business person. Happens all the time in many industries.

[ccracin]

I was going to bring that point up as well, Tim. How many half finished car projects are out there at various shops? We all know many I am sure...

No one seems to discuss businesses doing checks on their customers. Customers often seem to think businesses should fall over each other to take their hard earned money. Not so much. It's a 2 way street out there folks, especially when you start talking big dollars... :innocent:

No one is saying this applies to you Mario, but it is a very valid point in the context of this conversation.

You are correct, most people think it is all the vendors job in keeping them happy. It is absolutely a two way street. The vendor should do everything they say they will and the customer reciprocate with pay the agreed amount in time agreed to. No ifs ands or buts about it.

[syborg tt]

Less? A vendor asked for less money than quoted? Surely this is a typo!
Or, maybe miracles do happen....just not to me.

Nope no Typo here and it was a significant amount.

[Shmoov69]

You are correct, most people think it is all the vendors job in keeping them happy. It is absolutely a two way street. The vendor should do everything they say they will and the customer reciprocate with pay the agreed amount in time agreed to. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Truth!! I've sent "customers" to my competition before because some people are just made for each other!! LOL!!:catfight:

[syborg tt]

Okay so I will chime in here.

During the day I sell packaging. Here are some of the rules we follow for our customer and if we don't do it right we are fined.

Label must be applied to the shipping ctn 1 1/4" from the bottom of the ctn & 1" from the side of the ctn. If the label is not applied to the ctn correctly you are fined $100.00. Then you are charged a handling fee per box and the product is shipped back to us at our expense. All of these fee's will be automatically be deducted from any checks.

If there is a overshippment it is considered a gift and you will not be paid for it.

If there is an undershipment and no notification was given you are once again fined.

If you are a day late - you are fined

If you are two day's early - you are fined

So the automotive world seems to be the only place that there are no contracts or in most cases an agreement and I believe the blame is on all parties involved Builder, Vendors and the Vendors Suppliers. The engine builder shouldn't have to worry that the guy making the custom pistons will deliver in two weeks vs six weeks.

I will leave the builders name out but tell a quick story. The builder was waiting for a supercharger for months and Sema was getting close. Finally he got frustrated and called a US Vendor received a supercharger the very next day (yes it was shipped NDA). That being said pick the right vendor and there is a good chance you are going to get you parts as promised and when promised.

The entire top half of my LS build came from Edelbrocks. I picked up the phone. Told them my goals and they spec'd the parts I would need and shipped everything the same day my Credit Card was charged.

Then I called Casey at Wegner Automotive. Said here is what I have and what I would like done and he made a few suggestions. He send me a estimate via email ( including powdercoating ) and I sent him my motor and all of my parts.

I received an E-mail that they received the parts

I received an E-mail that the block had been powdercoated

I received an E-mail that they ordered some ARP Bolts

Then I recieved an E-mail that the Motor was complete and he had a truck heading to Nickey Chevy and my Motor would be on the truck and I could pick it up there to save shipping cost.

I was never worried about anything because there was constant communication and I received it in a Timely manor.

[71RS/SS396]

If you went back and looked, Mario said he would setup an account with the money in it so the builder would know he is getting the money. A good quote, then purchase order, and po acknowledgment is all that is needed to make a good deal that also happens to be a contract. As I said in previous posts, my company commits to delivery dates on million dollar equipment and we rely on vendors for everything. It is possible with the proper procedures in place for using the right vendor. The best engine builder ever may not always be a good business person. Happens all the time in many industries.

I know zilch about the specs of Mario's engine but some of the boosted stuff we do is so specialized that there's only 1 vendor that makes the part you need so you're stuck with them for better or for worse and they don't just keep this stuff on the shelf, it's made to order.

What good does the contract, po,....whatever you want to call it do for me? If the guy runs out of money taking him to court and losing more money is a waste of time and money since he has no money to pay. From my point of view there's nothing but negatives with a contract because it could be a sign of someone that is going to use the contract to avoid payment or sue you later. We just finished an engine that the guy micro managed and changed his mind for what he wanted at least 5 times during the build so we had to go back and redo some things more then once, he would call everyday and sometimes multiple times a day, I didn't even charge him on some of the redo stuff or all the phone time and then he bitches about the labor bill at the end and wants to negotiate it, we made no money on the engine, he was not happy, so no one won,
. If I had a contract I would likely still be sitting on yet another engine someone didn't want to or couldn't pay for and could be in court trying to defend myself for doing what the guy asked for. I'm not saying Mario would do this but there are people who would so imho it's best to just avoid the potential headache.

[XLexusTech]

to the OP, not out of line in my opinion, this is a significant financial transaction and if you cant get what you expect when promised then their is no reason for you should not setup a contract... No reason @ all... if the shop doesn't want to sign up.. move on.. you are paying good money and providing a good timeline that everyone agrees to then their should be no problem.

I bet their is more then a few people who ordered from NRE who wish they had this up front..

[ccracin]

I know zilch about the specs of Mario's engine but some of the boosted stuff we do is so specialized that there's only 1 vendor that makes the part you need so you're stuck with them for better or for worse and they don't just keep this stuff on the shelf, it's made to order.

What good does the contract, po,....whatever you want to call it do for me? If the guy runs out of money taking him to court and losing more money is a waste of time and money since he has no money to pay. From my point of view there's nothing but negatives with a contract because it could be a sign of someone that is going to use the contract to avoid payment or sue you later. We just finished an engine that the guy micro managed and changed his mind for what he wanted at least 5 times during the build so we had to go back and redo some things more then once, he would call everyday and sometimes multiple times a day, I didn't even charge him on some of the redo stuff or all the phone time and then he bitches about the labor bill at the end and wants to negotiate it, we made no money on the engine, he was not happy, so no one won,
. If I had a contract I would likely still be sitting on yet another engine someone didn't want to or couldn't pay for and could be in court trying to defend myself for doing what the guy asked for. I'm not saying Mario would do this but there are people who would so imho it's best to just avoid the potential headache.

Tim,

I understand what you are saying for sure. I think one of the issues is you may not have a clear understanding of the PO process. It is a two way street. The terms on the PO including Payment terms more importantly for you are there to protect both parties. The contract requires the customer to pay for goods and services rendered. Court is not always the only course. You can also turn claims over to collections. you get money and they get the job of chasing the customer. Quite a few people move when credit rating is threatened. That being said, you are correct, if taking this route or court is not something you are willing to do, then the contracts mean nothing for either side. If you look at Marty's post, that is how most of the business world works. It seems this car industry has it's own set of rules. With the examples you gave above, why are you still in this business doing things the same way. It's always been said that people that continue to do things the same way and expect change are in for a huge disappointment. Rather than than abruptly saying I don't want your business if you show up with a PO or contract, a simple negotiation could really pay off. When you are talking these highly specialized, expensive engines it would not be out of place for you to ask for an escrow account be setup at a bank that can be drawn on when milestones are hit. Also, when the customer changes his mind, you send out revised quotes and receive revised PO's or whatever you have in writing. Verbal deals are the dangerous ones. Communication, documentation and general good business practices will go further than anything.

All that being said, I hope you don't take my comments in a negative way. I am simply trying to add perspective from outside the car world because it truly runs on its own set of rules it seems. I love this industry and hobby and do not want to see it crash from bad deals and people loosing tons of money on these bad deals. Customers or vendors. I am by no means an expert and am only providing my opinions. You guys are one of the most respected shops in the industry and I respect what you have to say on the subject. Hopefully just these exchanges will help educate some people allowing them to have better experiences in this community. :thumbsup:

[71RS/SS396]

Tim,

I understand what you are saying for sure. I think one of the issues is you may not have a clear understanding of the PO process. It is a two way street. The terms on the PO including Payment terms more importantly for you are there to protect both parties. The contract requires the customer to pay for goods and services rendered. Court is not always the only course. You can also turn claims over to collections. you get money and they get the job of chasing the customer. Quite a few people move when credit rating is threatened. That being said, you are correct, if taking this route or court is not something you are willing to do, then the contracts mean nothing for either side. If you look at Marty's post, that is how most of the business world works. It seems this car industry has it's own set of rules. With the examples you gave above, why are you still in this business doing things the same way. It's always been said that people that continue to do things the same way and expect change are in for a huge disappointment. Rather than than abruptly saying I don't want your business if you show up with a PO or contract, a simple negotiation could really pay off. When you are talking these highly specialized, expensive engines it would not be out of place for you to ask for an escrow account be setup at a bank that can be drawn on when milestones are hit. Also, when the customer changes his mind, you send out revised quotes and receive revised PO's or whatever you have in writing. Verbal deals are the dangerous ones. Communication, documentation and general good business practices will go further than anything.

All that being said, I hope you don't take my comments in a negative way. I am simply trying to add perspective from outside the car world because it truly runs on its own set of rules it seems. I love this industry and hobby and do not want to see it crash from bad deals and people loosing tons of money on these bad deals. Customers or vendors. I am by no means an expert and am only providing my opinions. You guys are one of the most respected shops in the industry and I respect what you have to say on the subject. Hopefully just these exchanges will help educate some people allowing them to have better experiences in this community. :thumbsup:

I have quite a bit of business experience and get what you are saying and don't take offense to it but we are a small 2-3 man shop and the administrative time involved in what you are talking about wouldn't be cost effective to keep altering po's every time someone wants to change something. We purposely keep our crew small to reduce overhead. Imo the escrow means nothing unless we had access to the funds which would make it pointless to have it then. We won't work ahead the money because I'm not getting stuck with someones half built engine or parts anymore, if you don't pay that week then the engine is going to sit until you do. I have no idea of your knowledge level of an engine of this caliber but the piece price can get pretty insane on this stuff, 1 example I can give is the pushrods we use on a high boost engine are $1000 a set. You can see why I won't finance peoples parts any more, the cost adds up fast in a week alone depending on where the build is.

[syborg tt]

I've set up about 5 shops with some billing documents. That one day will be converted into software.

Page 1 - Project Scope (Engine Build, Chassis, Sheet Metal, Parts)

Page 2 - Hard Part Costs (I encourage the owner to do this)
- I know some shops like to buy parts because they can make a small profit but the time spent doing is hard to bill. Especially when the parts come in wrong and don't work.

Page 3 - Estimated Labor Costs

Page 4 - Project Creep
If you do this then you need to consider this.
ex. If you move the firewall back, then you need to consider what will be in the way under the dash. (I can give plenty more)


Then there is a weekly sheet that is mailed to the customer. It has an Invoice, Escrow (whats left ) & most important Weekly Hours & What work was performed. Every week the customer gets this document and he must have a minimum agreed upon dollar amount in the account for any work to be performed.

If the account goes below then the project is put on hold. If after two weeks the account hasn't been brought to the agreed upon value then Storage charges can be charged.

The Customer has the right to come get the car and bring it back when he has money to keep the project in motion. If a car is taking up space in a shop it's not earning money for the business owner and both parties get frustrated.

[71RS/SS396]

That is a fair way to do it Marty. The only thing I disagree with is the buying of the parts, not because I make money off of them but because people often times either buy the " equivalent " or order the wrong part. I make very little if anything off of the parts and can pass my discounts on to the customer.

[syborg tt]

That is a fair way to do it Marty. The only thing I disagree with is the buying of the parts, not because I make money off of them but because people often times either buy the " equivalent " or order the wrong part. I make very little if anything off of the parts and can pass my discounts on to the customer.

I agree with the statement "equivalent" that can be dangerous. If they are ordering say the full DSE or Ride-Tech catalog then it's safer for the shop owner to not have to buy them.

Point being if the part was ordered wrong then it's the customers responsibility to spend the time to ship the parts back, reorder the correct parts and deliver them to you.

It also give the customer ownership in the project as to what the car cost to build. There is no sticker shock when you order the 10,000 dollar DSE front stub with brakes and then charge them 20 hours to install it. If they have already spent the 10 and you charge them only 1500 to install it they feel like they got a fair deal. It's a mind game.

Just like when the wife goes shopping and buys something that is 90 dollars she tells you it was on sale and she save $100.00.

But when Car Guys & Gals buy parts the cost is the cost. We never look at it as we've save money.

[Steve Chryssos]

This is so painful....

The alternate view is not saying that contracts are bad, escrow is bad. It is simply saying that:

Race engines are not roofs. A race engine builder is not the same as a roofer. And don't try to split hairs or wax philosophically about a race engine vs a custom high perf engine. A TT 540 is not the same as the engine in yer Camry.

Judges understand roofs. Judges do not understand $40-$50K TT540's. A smart experienced engine builder will already have been though the wringer with one or more litigious customers. It's usually the customer who makes a 5th to 1st downshift at 100mph resulting in valves bouncing off pistons. That customer type, like the judge who might decide the case, JUST DOESN'T GET IT.

As a result of the above, smart experienced engine builders choose their customers carefully. This proposed contract, no matter how sound it might be, will make a smart, experienced engine builder wary, so.....

Invert that train of thought: The engine builder who does sign the contract might not be smart and experienced. Which leads us to ------->

Find a smart, experienced professional engine builder. Ask for a written estimate on official company letterhead with terms, then demand an invoice with terms before forking over your deposit.

[syborg tt]

Well Said.


Find a smart, experienced professional engine builder. Ask for a written estimate on official company letterhead with terms, then demand an invoice with terms before forking over your deposit.

[ccracin]

Find a smart, experienced professional engine builder. Ask for a written estimate on official company letterhead with terms, then demand an invoice with terms before forking over your deposit.

X2 I think this is what have been trying to get too. The problem is, there too many vendors in this industry that play buzz word bingo and have more excuses than solutions. It makes it oh so difficult for those of you that try to do it right.

Speaking of this, I will give Steve much credit. He is one of our vendors and an excellent one at that. I would not consider having to have a contract when business is done like he does it. In fact, our order changed mid-stream do to issues with one of Steve's vendors. He informed us of it, refunded us that portion of our money and found a solution for the issue. That is why our truck has his Muscle Drive/Shrifter setup in it! SIMPLE!

[Dayton]

What you don't want to have happen is hand over 40 large to a vendor. The vendor then uses this money to pay his overdue bills, and, complete other overdue projects.
Then, for your job to be completed, the vendor needs more new money.
I have lived in this scenario.

[geberhard]

If you are spending $40K to have an engine built there are other issues :) Might as well spend some extra $$ on whale penis leather in the interior..

http://jalopnik.com/5380680/15m-russian-suv-features-diamonds-whale-penis-leather

Because "There's nothing like a nice long ride on whale penis." lol!!!

On a more serious note, I have seen buddies getting shafted (no whale penis pun intended), on builds and am amazed on how many people are taking their cars or component builds form builder to builder after long waits, crappy builds, and horror stories. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a contract to be put in place to protect both parties and establish a base or relative budget and ETA.

Remember that any changes YOU make in scope or your builder suggests should be accommodated on the contract to adjust and realign to new budget and scope creep. A lot of the builds I am seeing here that are failing epically are due to owners spending a lot of time on the forums and getting swayed on different directions specially on what is becoming trendy or better yet after learning the way they shoudl have built their strategy and plan in the first place. My advice (which I am also to blame for not following :)) is to make a plan and try sticking with it. I am seeing 3, 4 7 year projects where people have spent a lot of time, effort, money and frustration, marriages and new builders going to waste, and their babies are nowhere done :)

I may have missed it but what are your goals with the car to begin with? Show? OUSCI? SEMA? Pickup chicks?

[DOOM]

Maybe so, but I've been taught some expensive lessons along the way, sometimes the price of admission isn't worth it. I didn't say you wouldn't get an estimated delivery date. I just wouldn't make any guarantees on dates there are too many outside vendors that have to be worked with that don't meet their commitments that we have no control over. I'll play devils advocate and have you look at it from my side, I have 2 half built engines sitting in the shop right now that have been there for 18 months because the guy ran out of money so I'm sitting on $50K worth of parts that are good for nothing but these 2 engines because everything is so specialized when you build an engine like you're talking about. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest I'm just trying to give you some perspective from the builders point of view, we get taken of advantage of as well. :cheers:
Tim no pissing contest it's all good! Just wanted everyone's take I fully understand what your saying.
If you went back and looked, Mario said he would setup an account with the money in it so the builder would know he is getting the money. A good quote, then purchase order, and po acknowledgment is all that is needed to make a good deal that also happens to be a contract. As I said in previous posts, my company commits to delivery dates on million dollar equipment and we rely on vendors for everything. It is possible with the proper procedures in place for using the right vendor. The best engine builder ever may not always be a good business person. Happens all the time in many industries.Chad your my new spokesman!!!!!!:thumbsup:

What you don't want to have happen is hand over 40 large to a vendor. The vendor then uses this money to pay his overdue bills, and, complete other overdue projects.
Then, for your job to be completed, the vendor needs more new money.
I have lived in this scenario.One of my biggest fears right there !!!

If you are spending $40K to have an engine built there are other issues :) Might as well spend some extra $$ on whale penis leather in the interior..

http://jalopnik.com/5380680/15m-russian-suv-features-diamonds-whale-penis-leather

Because "There's nothing like a nice long ride on whale penis." lol!!!

On a more serious note, I have seen buddies getting shafted (no whale penis pun intended), on builds and am amazed on how many people are taking their cars or component builds form builder to builder after long waits, crappy builds, and horror stories. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a contract to be put in place to protect both parties and establish a base or relative budget and ETA.

Remember that any changes YOU make in scope or your builder suggests should be accommodated on the contract to adjust and realign to new budget and scope creep. A lot of the builds I am seeing here that are failing epically are due to owners spending a lot of time on the forums and getting swayed on different directions specially on what is becoming trendy or better yet after learning the way they shoudl have built their strategy and plan in the first place. My advice (which I am also to blame for not following :)) is to make a plan and try sticking with it. I am seeing 3, 4 7 year projects where people have spent a lot of time, effort, money and frustration, marriages and new builders going to waste, and their babies are nowhere done :)

I may have missed it but what are your goals with the car to begin with? Show? OUSCI? SEMA? Pickup chicks?
This car is for me to have a blast with! Any of the above would be a bonus ! Except for the last one my wife MAY have a problem with that :D

[DOOM]

Guys lots of great points. I see it from all sides and fully understand where everyone is coming from .

[Rick D]

Guys lots of great points. I see it from all sides and fully understand where everyone is coming from .

Hey my question is whatcha doing with 572???? :hello:

[DOOM]

Hey my question is whatcha doing with 572???? :hello:

Rick we can talk about that!

[Steve Chryssos]

X2 I think this is what have been trying to get too. The problem is, there too many vendors in this industry that play buzz word bingo and have more excuses than solutions. It makes it oh so difficult for those of you that try to do it right.

Speaking of this, I will give Steve much credit. He is one of our vendors and an excellent one at that. I would not consider having to have a contract when business is done like he does it. In fact, our order changed mid-stream do to issues with one of Steve's vendors. He informed us of it, refunded us that portion of our money and found a solution for the issue. That is why our truck has his Muscle Drive/Shrifter setup in it! SIMPLE!

Thank you sir!

The subject needs closure. The middle ground is for enthusiasts to have detailed conversations with their vendors about terms. Know where you stand and get it in writing from your vendor before providing payment. I've long wanted to present a list of questions related to terms. I'm sure that list would piss some other businessman off, because every business has a different perspective on terms. Within our own business we have different terms for standard / in-stock items vs custom long-lead orders. So there are no hard and fast rules.

The flip-side is that there are many common terms and policies dating back to the Sears & Roebuck Catalog days that help nail down fair transactions.
:ups:
I've been working in mail order since 1989. That's pre-internet and I started out working at an engine builder! None of these problems, policies, and solutions are new. If you guys wanna talk through a list of terms related questions, I'll start.

[DOOM]

$51K for an engine? Your crazy!!
Dude have you ever seen a twin turbo big block in a 69 camaro. It gets cramped in the engine compartment. Hey if you want a trailer queen, its your car. I think you should take half that and Get a MAST LSX with a supercharger on it. Then take the rest of the money and read the INVESTING 102 thread.

I don't know how I missed your comment Bob ! Trailer queen? Come on Bob you know better..:D

[Matt@BOS]

I don't know how I missed your comment Bob ! Trailer queen? Come on Bob you know better..:D

Dude, I feel like there are only 10 nice days a year where you live and 3 of those probably still get a little rain during part of the day, so it could be a valid question. Then again I clearly don't know Chicago very well. Last time I was there I drove from Midway airport to UChicago via 55th/Garfield (I think I got those right) because it looked like the fastest way there.

[DOOM]

Dude, I feel like there are only 10 nice days a year where you live and 3 of those probably still get a little rain during part of the day, so it could be a valid question. Then again I clearly don't know Chicago very well. Last time I was there I drove from Midway airport to UChicago via 55th/Garfield (I think I got those right) because it looked like the fastest way there.

OH so you got to see some of the more beautiful areas of our lovely city!!! And your still here to talk about it !!:_paranoid

[CornHusker4Life]

Mario

It is a Midwest Thing. Some people just do not understand it.:D

[strtcar]

Dude, I feel like there are only 10 nice days a year where you live and 3 of those probably still get a little rain during part of the day, so it could be a valid question. Then again I clearly don't know Chicago very well. Last time I was there I drove from Midway airport to UChicago via 55th/Garfield (I think I got those right) because it looked like the fastest way there.


This is false, there are like 14 days, and 4 of those we complain cause it went from 60 outside to 95 and 100% humidity :)

[fleetus macmullitz]

Annually a lot of people travel long distances to sit outside during the day on the northside of Chicago and watch da Cubbies.

[DOOM]

It should be a law[/QUOTE
I'll bet you wish you had one! Your deal was a joke!!
[QUOTE=compos mentis;477853]Annually a lot of people travel long distances to sit outside during the day on the northside of Chicago and watch da Cubbies. I'm a southsider and would never be caught dead in that SH^T box Skip!

[fleetus macmullitz]

[quote=Marine71;477849]It should be a law[/QUOTE
I'll bet you wish you had one! Your deal was a joke!!
I'm a southsider and would never be caught dead in that SH^T box Skip!

Mario,

Yep, it's rep as a crumbling toilet is well known on the east coast as well.